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The 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness - The Eight Basic Winner/Loser Scripts

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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

So are we putting Leary in the Tree, or the Tree in Leary? 😆 

I was familiar with the Tree before I encountered Leary's 8-circuit model. Then I read about these circuits and, as a physician, I applied the physiology to the Tree. Since R.A. Wilson promoted these circuits, exchanging some numbers, it took a while to get a proper grip on the concepts. Finally, it (the switcheroos) became clear and I made my attributions. I set Leary and Wilson aside and put the physilogy in the Tree.

"Everyone must build their own QBL" [-AC]. So I built mine. It works. Some folks don't agree with my attribution. Well, at least one person raised an objection about 4 years ago. So what? I do not insist on imposing my correlations on anyone else; I just post or print them, and let the Atu fall where they will.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Why would the tree be the "root base" and not, for example, the bagua or iching which is arguably older?

Please do not confuse me with a tener (tenor?). I taught Feng Shui in accredited medically-related courses for quite a while, and what with the I Ching do-dads being exchangable with the Tree, that part has also been covered. In practical, everyday affais, I tend to relate to things in terms of the 3. The 3 gunas, the three grades of Thelema, etc. It was around 1967 that I realized there was a QBL of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, &11. That is, one can build their castle based on any of these numbers. So I did that.

I (maybe "we") tend to gravitate toward the 10-Tree, because this is the AC Society and AC presented that Tree, so it's common ground  around here. Pin everything onto the Tree, and almost everyone here knows what that means. But when I shift in the 7 planes and the 7 rays, I start to lose some folks ... or they think I'm crazy.

"All numbers are infinte," so anybody can make a case for basing their "mental arrangement" on any number whatsoever. There came a point, quite a while back, when the whole numbers game had to be replaced with something even more practical (negotiating life withour numerical references), so I avoid stressing any "reality" to any given set of attributes or their equivalents, because anyone can re-arrange anything. The point is: What works? Which configuration provides the best foundation for ordering the mind ... so we can stop it?

The circuits are addressed in this Chapter ...

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Honestly I always had issues attempting to make the tree work elegantly with everything, but thats because I'm not that smart.

Perhaps you are simply not that simple. As I said (or implied, or thought I had said-implied, anything (any system or sequence) can be fitted onto the Tree, but sometimes it took (me) a few years to fiddle-fit it. And again, I emphasize that it's only the lower 7 that we can take to the bank. Sometimes the Supernal Triad can be made to shine like a Christmas Tree or blow up like a Burning Bush. The rules of the game change at Binah (and up).

The task of correlation is merely to order the mind, to get it balanced so it can be stopped and the truer forms of reality can be admitted into consciousness. That's it! That's all! This QBL stuff is mostly Hod (the lower, concrete mind), and it's not a tool to get to Liberation Point. 

Crowly ended Confessions with the statement, "You're all a pack [deck?] of cards." Yeah, that's what it comes down to ... a deck of cards coiled in one hand, loosely loosening one card at a time in a rapid series-spray of cardboard that showers cards everywhere in the room.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

So are we putting Leary in the Tree, or the Tree in Leary? 😆 

I was familiar with the Tree before I encountered Leary's 8-circuit model. Then I read about these circuits and, as a physician, I applied the physiology to the Tree. Since R.A. Wilson promoted these circuits, exchanging some numbers, it took a while to get a proper grip on the concepts. Finally, it (the switcheroos) became clear and I made my attributions. I set Leary and Wilson aside and put the physilogy in the Tree.

 

The Malkuth /Circuit 1 correlation I guess that pure sensory-reactivity (without thinking) can be attributed to Malkuth.   Yesod as the status (food-chain position) toddler Circuit 2?   Yesod has to be The Unconscious so yeah I guess any emotion you don't want to face is trashed by the  ego (i.e. ego as Circuit 2) for reasons of status anxiety in one way or another.  Waite's Moon ATU designs shows someone going through such angst.  Hod clearly fits in with Circuit 3 and I guess Netzach is Circuit 4's mating-replication-parenting. The Tiparethic balancing harmonizing 'light' as Circuit 5 is fine but Geburah as the neuroelectric circuit?    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

but Geburah as the neuroelectric circuit?    

A perfect fit.

One Star tells us the 6=5 attains to mastery of practical magic.

This circuit, which I have personally cut down to "the electric circuit," is also known as "the metaprogramming circuit," and it is the first circuit we come to (on the levator ride up) that is capable of re-programming any of the lower circuits.

The re-programming here is where one adjusts their lower vehicle's perception of "reality" so that it might conform to actual "reality" itself.

Perhaps you will not agree when I say that such an adjustment is not only necessary but it is possibly the highest example of practical magic that can be sought?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

but Geburah as the neuroelectric circuit?    

A perfect fit.

One Star tells us the 6=5 attains to mastery of practical magic.

This circuit, which I have personally cut down to "the electric circuit," is also known as "the metaprogramming circuit," and it is the first circuit we come to (on the levator ride up) that is capable of re-programming any of the lower circuits.

The re-programming here is where one adjusts their lower vehicle's perception of "reality" so that it might conform to actual "reality" itself.

Perhaps you will not agree when I say that such an adjustment is not only necessary but it is possibly the highest example of practical magic that can be sought?

That's all fine but why Geburah?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

That's all fine but why Geburah?

Um, because Geburah is the sphere of the 6=5 who is re-wiring his/her circuitry in order to become a pure vehicle? As far as "forces" go, electricity is way up there in Power, the attribute of Geburah. Also Geburah is the next rung on the ladder after (or before) Tiphareth, numerically and spherically speaking.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Um, because Geburah is the sphere of the 6=5 who is re-wiring his/her circuitry in order to become a pure vehicle?

I knew that I meant the attributes of Geburah (Mars, severity and force) how do they relate to the neuro-electric metaprogramming?

 

Posted by: @shiva

 As far as "forces" go, electricity is way up there in Power, the attribute of Geburah. Also Geburah is the next rung on the ladder after (or before) Tiphareth, numerically and spherically speaking.

Power, aha  ok the power to jump up beyond even the neurosomatic circuit.  I guess you could say that every creature's neuro-somatic activity is organized by bio-electrical impulses (power) but in turn that is organized by what's going on with protein production at the genetic level which apparently would correspond to Chesed. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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As in; I knew that, I meant the attributes of Geburah (Mars, severity and force) and how do they relate to the neuro-electric metaprogramming?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

how do they relate

As Wilson #1 (or #2?) (R.A.) told us, this circuit (when expressed) must be tempered with humor. This is because it is so severe (in making change) that its unbridled expression will cause war.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

I knew that I meant the attributes of Geburah (Mars, severity and force) how do they relate to the neuro-electric metaprogramming?

Posted by: @dom

As in; I knew that, I meant the attributes of Geburah (Mars, severity and force) and how do they relate to the neuro-electric metaprogramming?

And the difference between them here is?

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

That's all fine but why Geburah?

[...] Also Geburah is the next rung on the ladder after (or before) Tiphareth, numerically and spherically speaking.

And where the path between them here is "Adjustment", as in

Posted by: @shiva

Perhaps you will not agree when I say that such an adjustment is not only necessary but it is possibly the highest example of practical magic that can be sought?

This is correct in the sense of the supreme magickal (or mystical) act of resolving duality into nothing, or 2=0, as illustrated in the card of the same name ('Adjustment') from the Thoth deck-

[...] The figure is that of a young and slender woman poised exactly upon toetip. She is crowned with the ostrich plumes of Maat, the Egyptian goddess of Justice, and on her forehead is the Uraeus serpent, Lord of Life and Death. She is masked, and her expression shows her secret intimate satisfaction in her domination of every element of dis-equilibrium in the Universe. This condition is symbolized by the Magic Sword which she holds in both hands, and the balances or spheres in which she weighs the Universe, Alpha the First balanced exactly against Omega the Last. 

[...] She is the ultimate illusion which is manifestation; she is the dance, many-coloured, many-willed, of Life itself. Constantly whirling, all possibilities are enjoyed, under the phantom show of Space and Time: all things are real, the soul is the surface, precisely because they are instantly compensated by this Adjustment. All things are harmony and beauty; all things are Truth: because they cancel out.

She is the goddess Maat; she bears upon her nemyss the ostrich feathers of the Twofold Truth.  From this Crown, so delicate that the most faintest breath of thought must stir it, depend, by chains of Cause, the Scales wherein Alpha, the first, is poised in perfect equilibrium with Omega, the last. The scales of the balance are the Two Witnesses in whom shall every word be established. She is therefore to be understood as assessing the virtue of every act and demanding exact and precise satisfaction.

More than this, she is the complete formula of the Dyad; the word AL is the title of the Book of the Law, whose number is 31, the most secret of the numerical keys of that Book. She represents Manifestation, which may always be cancelled out by equilibration of opposites.

Where her characteristics are also described further as

She is wrapped in a cloak of mystery, the more mysterious because diaphanous; she is the sphinx without a secret, because she is purely a matter of calculation. In Eastern philosophy she is Karma. 

[...] From the cloak of the vivid wantonness of her dancing wings issue her hands; they hold the hilt of the Phallic sword of the magician. She holds the blade between her thighs.  This is again a hieroglyph of “Love is the law, love under will”. Every form of energy must be directed, must be applied with integrity, to the full satisfaction of its destiny. (quotes taken from "The Book of Thoth" by Therion)

So yes, in terms of 'cancelling out' there I suppose that perhaps I will not will agree.  (But with all that work done already, seems precious little "work" left for the 7=4 to do in Chesed other than to have to write down his/her Thesis!)

Posted by: @shiva

[T]his circuit (when expressed) must be tempered with humor. This is because it is so severe (in making change) that 

Is this the same as saying that the quality of mercy itself [as in Pillars of Boaz-Joachim Severity & Mercy] equates to/with humo[u]r?

N Joy


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

And where the path between them here is "Adjustment", as in

You're seeing ATU correlations in the paths?  That is, if we take it that the Sephira are the Circuits then what are the Paths in that schema (I mean neurologically speaking because that's the model we're discussing)?   Well the obvious answer is that they literally neurological pathways.  Can you adequately attribute each ATU to any of these relationships/Paths?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

"Everyone must build their own QBL" [-AC]. So I built mine. It works. Some folks don't agree with my attribution. Well, at least one person raised an objection about 4 years ago. So what? I do not insist on imposing my correlations on anyone else; I just post or print them, and let the Atu fall where they will.

100% agree, our own QBL should be deeply meaningful to us as individuals, it is a map to our own language.

So, I assume we all do this to some degree, and it is good therefore to compare notes within the community as this alone may help us (certainly me) to avoid our own delusions. It is good to know what "I" really mean to myself, but we also need a group language to help each other "see" what each other means too, yes?

Posted by: @shiva

In practical, everyday affais, I tend to relate to things in terms of the 3. The 3 gunas, the three grades of Thelema, etc. It was around 1967 that I realized there was a QBL of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, &11. That is, one can build their castle based on any of these numbers. So I did that.

So you are a literal minefield of note comparison 🙂

Question: Leary's 8 Circuits are based on the Chakra system and do line up perfectly within the chakra system, yet the chakra system lines up differently on the tree as the middle pillar.

Curious how you balance that?

Posted by: @shiva

Perhaps you are simply not that simple.

yeah probably. When I was doing that sort of work, I was kind of either hoping or assuming that there is some sort of "Rosetta Stone" that is universal rather than personal, so I might have had unrealistic expectations.

Also, i went in the opposite order–I actually started out with Leary's 8 circuits and THEN went into western occultism because I wanted to understand Leary better.

this was so long ago it has only been the last 4 years that I have revisited this youthful explorations of mine. 

Thx for sending the 8 Circuit PDF.

FUN FACTS: Why does RAW and Tim have some discrepancies in the list and order of the circuits and which one is accurate?

1. RAW is the accurate one

2. Tim's is intentionally out of order ( think it is 7 and 6 that are switched) and this was apart of the adepts "training" in the sense that the adept has to know what is out of order and where to put it back based on their own direct experience receiving the "gnosis". Tim said this directly, told us it was out of order and "good luck" putting it back 🙂

RAW is the more easier to understand and coherent version of the 8 circuit model.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

You're seeing ATU correlations in the paths?  That is, if we take it that the Sephira are the Circuits then what are the Paths in that schema (I mean neurologically speaking because that's the model we're discussing)?   Well the obvious answer is that they literally neurological pathways.  Can you adequately attribute each ATU to any of these relationships/Paths?

This is where I would like to be able to see what @Shiva sees, because in Leary's model, there are the equivalent of the ATU in the sense of 3 stages per circuit, which Leary and RAW BOTH claim is the accurate number of "true" cards, 24 not 22.

Leary specifically said "24" reality scripts running all the time. The infamous "23" relates to all the reality scripts running out in the world minus yours.

There are, additionally, "24 causal relations" in Buddhism, interestingly enough.

What I find interesting about what Shiva is doing is combining the supernals into "one". What I would like to understand is why is he not being consistent with the other sephirot? 

There is a slight variation in our "notes", same step, same assumptions, except one is applied by making the circuits the sephirot, and the other by deconstructing the circuits into the ATU stages.

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM:

RAW and LEARY claim that the ancient Hebrew cabalists and dark age alchemists were "incomplete" on 22 ATU, and the only way to correct it is to update it into 24.

24 ATU CARDS, NOT 22!

Two Hebrew letters are MISSING! Two trump cards are MISSING!

There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught!

In Leary's mind, this is an intelligence test for adepts to resolve. All occult systems "MUST" be out of order for the adepts to learn directly from their own "inner school" how to correct it back into order.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

what are the Paths in that schema

The spheres are things (nouns). The paths are ways of doing things (verbs).

Atu "Adjustment" is a balancing of "personal karma," at least in the area of "perception and interpretation of reality." To pull this one off, the Adjustment must be done via dhyana (Atu XII), but the balacing act is performed on the high-wire walk across Atu VIII.

These are the tasks that qualify one to enter Geburah and get a 6=5 pinned on your tunic. Of course, nobody actually pins anything on any tunic, because this is self-generated and self-earned.

There are still loose ends to be tied up or cut off at Chesed (while one is busy writing that huge thesis that explains the Universe, and what needs to be done to help it along.

Neurologically, the spheres are components in the brain. In Esoteric Anatomy and Physiology, I identified these structures. I even cite specific, barely-known, little do-dads in the brain that are things like Paroketh. The paths are both conduits (nerve pathways) and the neurotransmitters that are secreted/released and cause change. DMT is on of these chemicals. When LSD is ingested, the body turns it into DMT. Therefore, DMT is a major pathway activator. Taking lots of legal DMT (or its legal precursor) can lead to temporary Liberation (from the mind). I will furnish the diagrams of the brainy do-dads right here ... (starting at pg 293 - continuing into Operatio 4, which is not posted here) ...

 

 

Posted by: @dom

Can you adequately attribute each ATU to any of these relationships/Paths?

I have personally tended to limit my exposition to the spheres, although some reference is made to the pathways. In some cases, the "pathway" is governed by a neurotransmitter or hormone, and not necessarily an interstate freeway of nerve fibers. Since I taught anatomy, physiology, and pathology in medical classes, I should be qualified to undertake this inquiry ... which I did. My attributions must be considered "preliminary" as it was only a first-thrust attempt.

This research went in deeper than most medical doctors go in their school studies, so it's pretty far out (or in). This far-in stuff is not provable except by giving you (or any test subject) dugs or inserting electrodes in your brain. This type of research is beyond my present capacity. If you want ALL the specific neural pathways, hormones, and neural transmitters, I suggest you start with medical school and then specialize in brainology with laboratory privileges ... but please don't expect me to do the pathwork ... I'm mainly a sphere-guy, and the paths fall where they may.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

uestion: Leary's 8 Circuits are based on the Chakra system and do line up perfectly within the chakra system, yet the chakra system lines up differently on the tree as the middle pillar.

Curious how you balance that?

The chakra system tends to be viewed in terms of the middle pillar (in a one-line, linear manner). Simply add the ida and the pingali and a whole new dimension is built up ... the picture expands sideways to conform more closely with the two side pillars.

To equate the chakras (and their side channels) with the Tree (and its side pillars) would be a fine project for someone other than me. I'm retired. While doing this, one might note that the Human Design system takes this into consideration. Also note that the Tree is merely a two-dimensional model; there are other dimensions to bring into play (starting with a third dimension). AAchad worked in this area.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

"Rosetta Stone" that is universal rather than personal

The universal solvent is linked to the fact that QBL and its cousins are merely scaffolds for working on the mind in order to get it properly aligned. Nothing in these linear mental jugglings leads to Liberation ... they merely set the mind up to be in balance ... so it can quietly be set aside. Once set aside (or stopped), one gets to move on to "direct perception." There will be no direct perception (gnosis) if the mind is imbalanced.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

RAW is the more easier to understand and coherent version of the 8 circuit model.

Yes he is. And he flipped about on the 6/7 order. The 7th circuit is obviously Chesed, but it takes some study to figure that out. I have re-named this circuit "Akashic." 

Well, there's more to comment upon, but I have to go now. I will return, as MacSrthur said ... after I go out in the snow to the pharmacy, which is expecting me.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

Neurologically, the spheres are components in the brain. In Esoteric Anatomy and Physiology, I identified these structures. I even cite specific, barely-known, little do-dads in the brain that are things like Paroketh. The paths are both conduits (nerve pathways) and the neurotransmitters that are secreted/released and cause change. DMT is on of these chemicals. When LSD is ingested, the body turns it into DMT. Therefore, DMT is a major pathway activator. Taking lots of legal DMT (or its legal precursor) can lead to temporary Liberation (from the mind). I will furnish the diagrams of the brainy do-dads right here ... (starting at pg 293 - continuing into Operatio 4, which is not posted here) ...

 

 

You're only talking about the neurosomatic activity?  I meant the drug-free  first 4 circuit-spheres as well and how they relate to each other and whether the ATU Paths fit neatly into that schema. 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

This is where I would like to be able to see what @Shiva sees, because in Leary's model, there are the equivalent of the ATU in the sense of 3 stages per circuit, which Leary and RAW BOTH claim is the accurate number of "true" cards, 24 not 22.

 

Bit busy tonight, will get back to you on that synaptic/dendrite computer circuit board input-process-output theory. 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the equivalent of the ATU in the sense of 3 stages per circuit,

The pharmacy trip was fun ... only ten miles away.

I said Operatio 3 was from Esoteric A & P, but when I went searching there ... it wasn't. It was in The Master Codex, like all the other secrets. Esoteric A & P deals more with energetics and energy fields. 

Now this three-stage thing is merely the three gunas, which can be applied to anything. I don't gnow (gnose) anything about 24 paths, but there's two missing in the 777 QBL that could cross the Abyss. I have long maintained that there is a subtle connection between Chesed and Binah, so why not toss in Geburah to Chokmah? There - 24 Paths. Who will name them and paint the cards (and rewrite The Book of Thoth - plus 777)? I am not available for the nomination.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

What I find interesting about what Shiva is doing is combining the supernals into "one". What I would like to understand is why is he not being consistent with the other sephirot?

There are but 3 grades. Forget Malkuth. It's here and now and all the other stuff is manifesting in The Kingdom Theater. The first trid (Yes-Hod-Netz) are but the 3 phases (gunas) of one degree. The A.'.A.'. has but one ceremony to enter this first triad ("Passing through the Tuat").

The second triad (Tiph-Geb-Ches) are the 3 phases of one degree (this grade operates on the causal plane - if one needed a teacher in the outer order, they don't need one now).

So far, the first 7 circuits line up just fine with the lower 7 sephira. This leaves the 8th circuit for everything above the abyss. But there are 3 separate degrees up in the supernal loft, not three phases of one degree. So I lump 8th circuit into a fused supernal triad. In fact, there might be more circuits, but since the 8th has consciousness removed from the biological container, it wouldn't make sense to the linear mind.

The supernals are linked to the biological container via the 3 supracoronal. Well, look, I wrote all this stuff in books so I wouldn't need to type it all out here again. The story is not complete until you have Operatio 4. So I post it below. Operatios 3 & 4 present my final synthesis of all these paradoxi, including the subtle link from Chesed to Binah, the supracoronal chakras, etc.

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

making the circuits the sephirot, and the other by deconstructing the circuits into the ATU stages.

This is the difference between nouns and verbs, but I am referencing anatomy (structures) and Physiology (processes). The system (neural) does not work unless both are engaged.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught!

Yeah, that's for sure. One passes this pylon by shifting from linear logic to wu-wei, which is the goal of The Great work. But wu-wei doesn't come about while the mind is still running. So the mind must be balanced (equaling zero) before woo-waying (wu-weighing?). 

I have already introduced the Chesed-Binah expressway tunnel in vague terms. The sample Tree in the Operatio series shows the missing paths, but moves them from Malkuth to do so. This is not my work, but it ties right in with this 22/24 dichotomy.

 

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

This is where I would like to be able to see what @Shiva sees, because in Leary's model, there are the equivalent of the ATU in the sense of 3 stages per circuit, which Leary and RAW BOTH claim is the accurate number of "true" cards, 24 not 22.

Leary specifically said "24" reality scripts running all the time. The infamous "23" relates to all the reality scripts running out in the world minus yours.

So they had no consideration for the schema in which the ATU as Paths reflect the relationship between the eight circuits?  The ATU Paths are, in Cabbalistic-Thelemic schools, considered to be as important as the Sephirah because they represent the Grades.   Leary believed that each ATU represents the input-process-output of the dendrite or the (logic gates)  computer circuit board?   How does he explain this?  

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM:

RAW and LEARY claim that the ancient Hebrew cabalists and dark age alchemists were "incomplete" on 22 ATU, and the only way to correct it is to update it into 24.

24 ATU CARDS, NOT 22!

Two Hebrew letters are MISSING! Two trump cards are MISSING!

There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught!

In Leary's mind, this is an intelligence test for adepts to resolve. All occult systems "MUST" be out of order for the adepts to learn directly from their own "inner school" how to correct it back into order.

I'd love to know how each ATU represents the input-process-output activity of each of the eight circuits.   The whole point of the Tree is that there are 10 emanations and they relate to each other via 22 Paths.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

they relate to each other via 22 Paths.  

As stated above, there is a (Hebrew) precedent for two extra paths crossing the abyss.

image

So this makes room for a couple more down below.

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

You're seeing ATU correlations in the paths? [...] Can you adequately attribute each ATU to any of these relationships/Paths?

Well yeah!  If we travel from one sephira to another then Paths are used, and in terms of correlated Correspondences Atus are all attributed to these paths.  It's so obvious if you have any familiarity with the concepts (which you seem to, at least some degree) I cannot see how you can be seriously asking these sorts of questions...

Posted by: @dom

That is, if we take it that the Sephira are the Circuits then what are the Paths in that schema (I mean neurologically speaking because that's the model we're discussing)?    

Shiva seems better qualified here than I to answer this.

Posted by: @dom

Well the obvious answer is that they [are] literally neurological pathways. 

That is, unless obviously you are?!

Posted by: @shiva

As stated above, there is a (Hebrew) precedent for two extra paths crossing the abyss.

Inserting Daath into the model introduces a whole other cat among the pigeons (for one thing, suggesting a staging or landing post on the journey to Binah from within the 'Abyss' so that there is no longer quite such a leap into the unknown there from Chesed). 

A question: If there's "a couple more [Paths] down below" (as well as above), won't there then be 4 extra Atus involved (instead of 2) - i.e., Chesed to Daath, Daath to Binah, Geburah to Daath and Daath to Chokmah) - therefore making 26, and not the 'magic' 24??

N Joy


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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Well yeah!  If we travel from one sephira to another then Paths are used ...

Well, yeah, It's like road map. We used to road maps before the Borg starting issuing verbal driving directions. Major roads are usually high-speed conduits, but they cut through different climates and landscapes and weathers, so they take on their own persona.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

won't there then be 4 extra Atus involved

You may see on the chart that there are only two new paths labelled. Da'ath is like a multi-level freeway hub. It is a state, not a thing, which is why they call it "the false sephiroth." It is not a hard sphere; it is the "eye of the needle" through which the Camel must pass. The "new" path," running from Chesed to Binah also goes through the "eye," but one level up or down from the Camel. 

Since the vision at Da'ath is that of Indra's Net, or the Star-Sponge, wherein all things are seen as reflections of all other things, it no longer matters which one is on top, or under, the other(s), because after this virtual intersection, there is no longer any reference.

Indra's Net / Star-Sponge  is the last thing the linear, talking mind perceives before it shuts down, or goes to sleep, or at least moves into complete passivity. This is the "surrender," the "sacrifice." There is still consciousness past this point, but it is not governed by the internal dialog.

I like the Tree I posted because it shows Malkuth hanging by a thread.

However, it was other people who said there are 24 paths. I have not studied this notion and certainly have not encountered any inner evidence, or Fedex packages delivered by Angels, that suggest I should find a couple new Paths and restructure 777.

I am required, though, to keep banging the drum about a "subtle connection" between Olympus and the Binah Suites & Arms. "Subtle" implies it's not quite up to "Path" definitions, but that something similar is present.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

You're seeing ATU correlations in the paths? [...] Can you adequately attribute each ATU to any of these relationships/Paths?

Well yeah!  If we travel from one sephira to another then Paths are used, and in terms of correlated Correspondences Atus are all attributed to these paths.  It's so obvious if you have any familiarity with the concepts (which you seem to, at least some degree) I cannot see how you can be seriously asking these sorts of questions...

 

You thought that I didn't know what the Paths are?  Reread what i wrote, I was asking in terms of the Brain Circuits and their Paths and how they correlate to the ATU attributed to them if they (the Brain Circuits) are the Sephirah. I don't think i can make it any clearer.   It looks like Leary didn't like that schema so he overrode it and instead attributed his input-process-output  to the ATU instead.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

So they had no consideration for the schema in which the ATU as Paths reflect the relationship between the eight circuits?  The ATU Paths are, in Cabbalistic-Thelemic schools, considered to be as important as the Sephirah because they represent the Grades.   Leary believed that each ATU represents the input-process-output of the dendrite or the (logic gates)  computer circuit board?   How does he explain this?  

Leary's full system is "Neurologic" and the only full and complete review of this is Tim's Game of Life. In that work, Tim had RAW work out the tarot stuff and at the time RAW had pretty close access to some Thelemic mages.

How it is explained is understanding the 8 brains and 24 intelligences as the evolution of intelligence itself so everything inside and outside is recapitulating (nesting, its not a fractal, but it does nest neatly, like 3 into 9 into 27 kind of thing so the pattern can be predicted)  and the "purpose" of intelligence is to return to source (the center of galaxy).

 

  1. So Leary's first explanation is that ALL occult systems throughout time are simply higher circuits communicating the messages to lower circuits (via adepts which leary called "intelligence agents")
  2. Occult systems are just systems to facilitate this process, which then seed the next phase of social and collective evolution (which also recapitulate these same energies, not just the individual, but society plays out each phase as well)
  3. The Message is return to source, literally and galactically.
  4. Specifically, at this time (1970's) the message is SMILE.
  5. Leary claimed that he "received" this information from higher intelligence, which he believed was coiled up in his DNA code, waiting to be "unlocked" by the appropriate chemicals, which Leary claimed is discovered through tantric linkage couplings.
  6. FUN STUFF: This experience happened with Joanna Leary and much of it happened while Leary was in Folsom prison. Errol Morris just released a documentary about Joanna Leary especially this time. Lots of other interesting things to unpack here. https://youtu.be/WJAsSX_V86I
  7. So! tantric linkage couplings play out in individuals, lovers, communities, society and the world.
  8. Each brain circuit also plays out this tantric linkage
  9. Each circuit (brain) has THREE stages of development. Passive, Active, Integrative.
  10. Each stage of development can also be looked at as its own "brain"
  11. This is not like Shiva explanation of the tree and the ATUs, in Leary's system each ATU would be a "phase" of each sephirot (but we are not using spheres and ATU yet, just brains and intelligence so far) not a pathway to each sphere.
  12. the first phase of each brain (chakra, sphere, etc) is passive and receptive (ATU 1). As it receives signals from its environment, it evolves to a second phase, which is "active" and means the intelligence has adapted to its environment.
  13. The THIRD phase of each brain/circuit/sphere/chakra REQUIRES tantric linkage with another "caste" member, NO EVOLUTION occurs without this linkage.
  14. This makes each chakra, brain, circuit simply a set of communication, passive, active and the combination of both of them.
  15. Each of those three brains in each circuit are three ATU's, 3 for each brain.
  16. Leary believed that intelligence rolls out neatly packed into 8 and 3's
  17. Like Mendelev's table of the elements, Leary said because of this we can predict what is missing and what is required.
  18. The message is SMILE, in Leary's mind we had to put away the old systems as they were outdated, so he was not trying to explain how TAROT works, he was trying to show that TAROT is or was just doing an earlier version of the same message as SMILE.
  19. RAW works it all out for him in Game of Life with QBL and ATU
  20. So it is not just how does it match with the ATU and QBL, for Leary it was how society and the individual are playing out "The Game of Life" either consciously or unconsciously.
  21. So Leary said you could use each ATU as a meditation tool to tap into each level of intelligence.
  22. It would be bad form to assume that the lower 4 are not magical and only the higher 4 are.
    Posted by: @dom

    I'd love to know how each ATU represents the input-process-output activity of each of the eight circuits.   The whole point of the Tree is that there are 10 emanations and they relate to each other via 22 Paths.  

    Ask and you shall receive! https://3white5star2.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/13077663-timothy-leary-with-robert-anton-wilson-the-game-of-life.pdf

    That book the Game of Life was almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a copy of before the internet, I didnt even have my own copy until 1997.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Posted by: @shiva

The spheres are things (nouns). The paths are ways of doing things (verbs).

 

Shiva you're level of knowledge in many areas is extraordinary, so I need to digest a number of things you have share on this and I am likely to need a little time, but just wanted to highlight this distinction, I think this is where there may be some discrepancy. In Leary's system, and likely the way I approach it as well, is that spheres, ATUs, sephirot or chakras do not exist as independent or measurable things, they are only creative expressions of intelligence at various levels of oscillation. Intelligence, according to Leary, is defined as information received, integrated, and then shared by a medium, and that medium is only the human nervous system, which creates chakras, creates the tree of life, etc.

So in this view, Spheres are holistic expressions of intelligence evolving through a predictable recapitulation through its own design principle. The only difference between a sphere and a ATU is a sphere is a resolution of a dialectic between the ATU.

Thanks for everything!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Posted by: @shiva

Now this three-stage thing is merely the three gunas, which can be applied to anything. I don't gnow (gnose) anything about 24 paths, but there's two missing in the 777 QBL that could cross the Abyss. I have long maintained that there is a subtle connection between Chesed and Binah, so why not toss in Geburah to Chokmah? There - 24 Paths. Who will name them and paint the cards (and rewrite The Book of Thoth - plus 777)? I am not available for the nomination.

I really hope I have the time to verify this because if you have truly discovered the two extra ATU from an occult perspective you've done an extraordinary thing!

You're the only one to nominate 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

How it is explained is understanding the 8 brains and 24 intelligences as the evolution of intelligence itself so everything inside and outside is recapitulating (nesting, its not a fractal, but it does nest neatly, like 3 into 9 into 27 kind of thing so the pattern can be predicted)  and the "purpose" of intelligence is to return to source (the center of galaxy).

 

  1. So! tantric linkage couplings play out in individuals, lovers, communities, society and the world.
  2. Each brain circuit also plays out this tantric linkage
  3. Each circuit (brain) has THREE stages of development. Passive, Active, Integrative.
  4. Each stage of development can also be looked at as its own "brain"
  5. This is not like Shiva explanation of the tree and the ATUs, in Leary's system each ATU would be a "phase" of each sephirot (but we are not using spheres and ATU yet, just brains and intelligence so far) not a pathway to each sphere.
  6. the first phase of each brain (chakra, sphere, etc) is passive and receptive (ATU 1). As it receives signals from its environment, it evolves to a second phase, which is "active" and means the intelligence has adapted to its environment.
  7. The THIRD phase of each brain/circuit/sphere/chakra REQUIRES tantric linkage with another "caste" member, NO EVOLUTION occurs without this linkage.
  8. This makes each chakra, brain, circuit simply a set of communication, passive, active and the combination of both of them.
  9. Each of those three brains in each circuit are three ATU's, 3 for each brain.
  10.  

Thanks for the link, I am familiar with a lot of Leary's ideas in relation to 8 x 3 and SMI2LE etc.  In that book you linked it looks like RAW wasn't playing silly mind-fuck games there and actually found some sort of viable ATU correspondences.  I think I need some leisure time to absorb all that. 

By the way I noticed that I said earlier, " The ATU Paths are, in Cabbalistic-Thelemic schools, considered to be as important as the Sephirah because they represent the Grades".  That's not strictly accurate.  The PATHS are said to represent the dynamics that happen in between the stages of ascent (i.e. between the Sephirah) as it were.   Thelemic teachers Jim Eshelman and David Shoemaker give more intricate details on these matters in their work . 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

if you have truly discovered the two extra ATU

I did not "discover" anything. I have not proposed two extra paths. I can go on in denial long enough to appease the 42 judges/witnesses of the dead man's speech in the Hall of Maat.

I merely read Alice Bailey and looked at her charts and diagrams ... and found a line running from Buddhi to Manas (Binah to Chesed).


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Posted by: @dom

 Thelemic teachers Jim Eshelman and David Shoemaker give more intricate details on these matters in their work . 

Very familiar with Jim's work he is excellent I believe, a thelemic scholar! 

Also just to add I think I understand where some but not all confusion has arisen in some of the posts on the board. Leary's "Neurologic" is, for lack of a better word, a brand name for his entire system, which is all of Exo-psychology plus the entire "transmission" starseed transmission with Joanna. So I may have used that word as a system brand and not as the actual "neurological" phrasing of the word would be expected to be used in science. Apologies if that caused any confusion.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56 

Very familiar with Jim's work he is excellent I believe, a thelemic scholar! 

Also just to add I think I understand where some but not all confusion has arisen in some of the posts on the board. Leary's "Neurologic" is, for lack of a better word, a brand name for his entire system, which is all of Exo-psychology plus the entire "transmission" starseed transmission with Joanna. So I may have used that word as a system brand and not as the actual "neurological" phrasing of the word would be expected to be used in science. Apologies if that caused any confusion.

That's a good point, although a defrocked Prof he certainly left his contribution to psychology (from his research before he became a hippy celebrity).   Psychology is a science..... sort of.   The fact is he and RAW published work on "brain circuitry" but they were not medical Doctors.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Also just to add I think I understand where some but not all confusion has arisen in some of the posts on the board. Leary's "Neurologic" is, for lack of a better word, a brand name for his entire system, which is all of Exo-psychology plus the entire "transmission" starseed transmission with Joanna.

And Neurologic is also the title of a book he published about all this stuff in 1973 (note that there are only 7 circuits yet here):

https://mirror.explodie.org/Timothy%20Leary%20-%20Neurologic.pdf


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Posted by: @ignant666

(note that there are only 7 circuits yet here)

Somehow he managed to "discover" the 8th. I imagine LSD might have been involved ...

 


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Posted by: @shiva

LSD might have been involved ...

This does seem possible.


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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @ignant666

(note that there are only 7 circuits yet here)

Somehow he managed to "discover" the 8th. I imagine LSD might have been involved ...

 

Years of spiritual work open that circuit or spiritual work anyway.  RAW says that Ketamine opens it and LSD opens the 7th circuit at best but again, occult work opens these circuits otherwise all of the drug-free myriad of Adepts that ever were would've been liars.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

drug-free myriad of Adepts

This myriad did not of course include AC, who died at a time when no one but its discoverer had taken LSD, and some years before psilocybe mushrooms were known outside Mexico, but was an enthusiastic user of peyote, peyote extract, cannabis, and other strange drugs.


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Posted by: @dom

LSD opens the 7th circuit at best

We must remember that DMT is manufactured by our bodies, so certain practices may well be linked to an increase in internal DMT production. DMT is recommended for the 8th circuit.

Anoyjer fun fact is that LSD is converted by the agencies in the body to DMT.

I would suggest that the amount of work done by any individual (with some serious results) would be more a factor than which drug is used. There is also natural talent. In Hot Zones, Frater R.'. gives an account where he discovered the true keys around age 12 (turning off the talking part of the mind and going straight up through the crown to the great vastness).

The strange phenomena are also experienced by Tibetan lamas (who [seemingly] take no drugs) and by [seemingly] "normal people."

As I wrote somewhere up above, it gets confusing when we say anything about the supernal triad, and the quantum (6th) circuit is up there. Many or none of the usual rules apply.

Posted by: @dom

occult work opens these circuits otherwise all of the drug-free myriad of Adepts that ever were would've been liars.

I see that you understand the concept(s).

Posted by: @ignant666

This myriad did not of course include AC

And even Allan Bennett, the true Godfather of what became Thelema, joined AC in their mutual imbibing of everything in the British Pharmacopoeia to see what worked. (Cannabis worked). Nothing else is mentioned in this early clinical study. Then AC went to Mexico and "discovered" peyote.

Before these two madmen, we don't hear about Levi, Cagliostro,  St Germaine, etc doing the strange libation routine. I guess there wasn't a "drug problem" before 1900, except for the occasional opium or laudnum addict.

 


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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @dom

drug-free myriad of Adepts

This myriad did not of course include AC, who died at a time when no one but its discoverer had taken LSD, and some years before psilocybe mushrooms were known outside Mexico, but was an enthusiastic user of peyote, peyote extract, cannabis, and other strange drugs.

You do what you want to do but realize that that's your trip and your trip only for you.   I don't have  a problem with someone who has 'the straight edge' so long as they don't start pointing their finger at me because I did this or that.   What would happen if someone took your weed from you for a few weeks let alone a few months?  Could you handle it all?  I hope so pal.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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You have actually never smoked cannabis, have you?

What astonishing fear, to be so obsessed with three of the biggest potheads of the 20th century, and yet to remain standing with your nose pressed to the glass, never entering the building.


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Posted by: @ignant666

You have actually never smoked cannabis, have you?

What astonishing fear, to be so obsessed with three of the biggest potheads of the 20th century, and yet to remain standing with your nose pressed to the glass, never entering the building.

So you, RAW and Leary would not probably cope too well in a pot-free week or month?   No need to be defensive. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

a pot-free week or month?

The relatively mild withdrawal symptoms from heavy cannabis use usually include two nights of restless sleep, with perhaps a touch of nausea the first day of deprivation.

The week or the month do not apply, as the re-orientation is only 1-2 days. These re-arrangements can be smoothed over with certain non-addictive pharmaceuticals.


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Posted by: @dom

No need to be defensive. 

No defensiveness, just honest astonishment that a grown person in this day and age can be ignorant enough to imagine cannabis is "addictive", or that even the heaviest users are going to suffer discomfort without it.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @dom

No need to be defensive. 

No defensiveness, just honest astonishment that a grown person in this day and age can be ignorant enough to imagine cannabis is "addictive", or that even the heaviest users are going to suffer discomfort without it.

I've smoked weed alright in my time.   You give the impression that you've been smoking it every day for years on end.   How's your short-term memory been in that time-span?  That isn't a dig ,I'm genuinely curious.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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I find it very hard to believe that you have smoked weed more than perhaps three times in your life.

"Short-term memory loss" is very real, but is over the very short term- at most 15 minutes- and consists of things like forgetting where one put one's keys five minutes ago. It is pretty trivial as a side effect, and seldom rises to the level of even being annoying

As someone who has been a heavy, all day, every day, "wake and bake" in the morning, cannabis consumer for almost 50 years now, this is easily dealt with. Each thing i might misplace has one and only one place it is allowed to go. This is also a useful discipline as someone who does a lot of wilderness camping- anything you do not know the location of at sunset is only going to be found by accident before dawn. So "a place for everything, and everything in its place."

The only negative effects of cannabis that i know of are related to prohibition of the plant, not the plant itself: it can be expensive, and can get you arrested etc in savage places. On the other hand, cannabis prohibition made me an enormous amount of money in my 20s, so i suppose we have to take the rough with the smooth.

I do prefer it being legal though- i just got home from a run to the grocery, the beer store, and the weed dispensary. No conversation with any annoying hippies was required for any of these transactions.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

 

"Short-term memory loss" is very real, but is over the very short term- at most 15 minutes- and consists of things like forgetting where one put one's keys five minutes ago. It is pretty trivial as a side effect, and seldom rises to the level of even being annoying

As someone who has been a heavy, all day, every day, "wake and bake" in the morning, cannabis consumer for almost 50 years now, this is easily dealt with. Each thing i might misplace has one and only one place it is allowed to go. This is also a useful discipline as someone who does a lot of wilderness camping- anything you do not know the location of at sunset is only going to be found by accident before dawn. So "a place for everything, and everything in its place."

Haha I do that anyway with my specs, they are only ever either on a table or a window ledge. 

 

Posted by: @ignant666

 

The only negative effects of cannabis that i know of are related to prohibition of the plant, not the plant itself: it can be expensive, and can get you arrested etc in savage places. On the other hand, cannabis prohibition made me an enormous amount of money in my 20s, so i suppose we have to take the rough with the smooth.

I do prefer it being legal though- i just got home from a run to the grocery, the beer store, and the weed dispensary. No conversation with any annoying hippies was required for any of these transactions.

You don't want to speak to hippies?  Why?

Posted by: @ignant666

I find it very hard to believe that you have smoked weed more than perhaps three times in your life.

 

Three times?  Haha. 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @dom

You don't want to speak to hippies?  Why?

He already included the answer to this question: "Annoying."

Posted by: @ignant666

any annoying hippies

You see, he was a Man on a Mission and didn't need/want any distractions.

I didn't even know there were still hippies around. Every now and then I see or encounter someone who was once a hippie, but now looks more normal. There is usually some sign of pharmaceutical, psychological, or actual physical damage.

Posted by: @dom

Three times?  Haha. 

No. "More than" three times was the statement.


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Posted by: @shiav
Posted by: @dom

Three times?  Haha. 

No. "More than" three times was the statement.

No - "More than perhaps" three times was the actual statement. [My emphasis.]

Hair-spllittingly yours,

N joy


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Sanguine Chuck
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Fun Facts: Did some research on what "drugs" were used by the various tantric adepts of Tibet, Bon and Buddhists. Cannabis and Datura is the answer. I've yet to find a ritual that it is specifically called for, and I suspect these drugs are just as low key in those traditions as they are anywhere else.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

No - "More than perhaps" three times

Oh, I see. It's all in the land of May-bee, or Might-have-done. An estimation, not a hard three.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Cannabis and Datura

Datura is pretty much bad news, but a lot of "primitive" cultures used/use it ... I suspect there's a shortage of mushrooms, research chemical dealers and ergot in these places/times.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

just as low key in those traditions as they are anywhere else.

Both cannabis and datura grow worldwide. I nominate cannabis as the "common denominator," with datura common, but not much of a denominator.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Datura is pretty much bad news, but a lot of "primitive" cultures used/use it ... I suspect there's a shortage of mushrooms, research chemical dealers and ergot in these places/times.

 

That's what I used to think, and you are correct it is a very dangerous plant medicine, but also one of the most revered in many indigenous cultures especially in the Amazon basin where it is an essential master plant and only for advanced practitioners. I've not used it myself, but I would consider if I had a proper curandero/shaman guide me. I've had a few close associates go down this path safely but did go blind for a few hours :/ 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

That's what I used to think, and you are correct it is a very dangerous plant medicine, but also one of the most revered in many indigenous cultures

Yeah, I know. It was also the central libation for the Santa Catalina Island Indians.

Twenty-six miles across the sea,
Santa Catalina is a-waitin' for me ...

(26 miles out in the ocean from Los Angeles. I've been there many times).

It was also a favorite with one of the up-and-coming members of Solar Lodge. He took it 7 times as a boiled tea. On the 7th, he almost died. His father, a physician. administered the antidote (A barbiturate, if I remember correctly). He told his son, "One more time and this [cumulative] stuff will kill you."

He decided to take his 8th dose while on guard at Solar Ranch during the Inquition. He wandered off into the desert. He died. The Deputy Sheriff said, "You folks have had a lot of trouble lately. Why don't we just call it an accident?" (That's what he did. Thank you for your support).

Datura Stramonium produces horrible, lower astral visions. It's not worth it.

Stramonium leaves, when dried, lose their toxicity, and the resulting herb is useful for quelling asthma. When mixed with legal medical cannabis, and smoked, it provides a weak catalyst for engaging the magical memory and reduces any congestion from from lung irritation. We have a Datura specimen in our garden. I have a bottle of dried, crushed leaves in my pharmacy. I would never recommend undried (fresh) datura in any form to anyone. It is classified as a poison, and it is.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
(@sangewanchuck56)
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Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 467
 
Posted by: @shiva

Yeah, I know. It was also the central libation for the Santa Catalina Island Indians.

 

well okay, sure why not.

But specifically in the Amazon basin it is considered one of the master plants alongside ayahuasca and tobacco, and unless one is trained to know how to sing to the spirit properly, it is a poison–but that is how the poison path works, no? If the spirit of the plant wants to work with you, you'll be fine. If not, well...some are called but few are chosen kinda thing.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but I also wouldn't recommend to anyone the occult or Aleister Crowley 😀

The poison path by any other name is still the poison path. Only the absolutely nuts take that path, the totally foolish. 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1825
 

While "up" at university a friend of mine partook of jimson weed (as Stuart himself referred to datura) a few times.  The main effects were that it made him carry out conversations with people who weren't there but he clearly (or unclearly!) thought so, and swore blind they were afterwards.  Apart from that Stu didn't seem to have suffered any severe effects, although I must confess he & I haven't seen each other for some time.(- that's not a subtle joke there, incidentally!)

N Joy


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Sanguine Chuck
(@sangewanchuck56)
Member
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 467
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

While "up" at university a friend of mine partook of jimson weed (as Stuart himself referred to datura) a few times.

I've been close to a few nightmare type stories of this kind myself, referring only to the naturally occurring variety of Datura here in Southern California.

In the Amazon, however, the practice of using it is quite elevated. First, as a plant medicine, it is only recommended to the apprentice directly by the spirit of Ayahuasca herself, it is either consumed with the Ayahuasca or as apart of a special dieta which includes chanting, fasting, celibacy, etc It is considered one of the more powerful spirits to work with, especially in terms of protection, so it is often called in to every genuine ceremony as part of the standard repertoire. 

In Tibet I would imagine Datura very easily could be used to call in these powerful, even malignant spirits and convert them to buddhism, making them protectors.

Ironically in the Amazon it is cannabis that is considered the plant spirit to stay away from 😮 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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