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The 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness - The Eight Basic Winner/Loser Scripts

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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The poison path by any other name is still the poison path. Only the absolutely nuts take that path, the totally foolish. 

AC points out that all the strange drugs are poisons ... then he defines it (poison), but it's a "light duty" definition. I am using the term "poison" is the strictest medical, and common sense, approach. Poison can kill.

There is no evidence of LSD or Peyote/mescaline or DMT killing people. There also is no evidence of Datura leading to higher visions or superior insight.

So, as with all things manifest on Earth and in our minds, we find duality (again) ...

Poison that kills vs. Poison that liberates (libates, but doesn't kill).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the naturally occurring variety of Datura here in Southern California.

Why that's the very brand I smoked (So Cal). Please note that Stramonium (aka Jamestown Weed) "naturally occurs all over the world. It was carried all over the world by dirt ballast that was put in ships' holds, and them dumped "on the other shore."

Here's the key word (as mentioned above): "Cumulative."  It is a cumulative poison, rarely killing people on the first (few) doses. With repeated use, the stuff build up in the body - then the reaper is called in.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Ironically in the Amazon

Are you citing this Amazonian Application (A.'.A.'.) because you went there and are relating your experiences ... or have you read about this in books?

Personally, I've never been there. But my wife, an initiated "Shaman" (they don't use that Siberian, popularized word) who has been in and out of Amazonia many times. who I just consulted in reference to this post, says she never heard of it being used (down there in the jungle). So I'm just wondering about your source of info.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

in the Amazon it is cannabis that is considered the plant spirit to stay away from

My wife (again) says she has not encountered this taboo. The Amazon River is very long. Perhaps there are different approaches amongst different Amazonian cultures/tribes?

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

AC points out that all the strange drugs are poisons ... then he defines it (poison), but it's a "light duty" definition. I am using the term "poison" is the strictest medical, and common sense, approach. Poison can kill.

We're on the same page, I mean the same thing too, poisons can kill or at least adversely effect the body, and that is what is considered the actual poison path, putting poisons in your body that may harm you and learning to transmute that poison into something medicinal and alchemical. Mongolian shamans even use vodka!

Posted by: @shiva

There also is no evidence of Datura leading to higher visions or superior insight.

 I'm not sure what you mean by superior or higher insight, merely that it is used powerfully as a protector and healing ally in the Amazon.

Posted by: @shiva

Are you citing this Amazonian Application (A.'.A.'.) because you went there and are relating your experiences ... or have you read about this in books?

I've been an apprentice in that world for quite some time, working directly with indigenous lineage holders, although not as active now as I once was. I also read it in books too! The best book on the subject I've read so far is "Singing to the Plants". Author is a very nice fellow. Very scholarly while a great read.

Posted by: @shiva

But my wife, an initiated "Shaman" (they don't use that Siberian, popularized word) who has been in and out of Amazonia many times. who I just consulted in reference to this post, says she never heard of it being used (down there in the jungle).

 

The Curanderos dont call it Datura, they call it (and YIKES I do not likely have the correct spelling so please work with me on this) "toi" kinda rhyming a bit with "toy". There are nine variations I believe of datura in the world, so I would not expect the amazonian version (which produces such a lovely flower) to be like others in the world, however I do see the trees in front lawns in southern california all the time. If your wife has worked with either Cechua or Shipibo, she likely has already worked with it.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

poisons can kill or at least adversely effect the body, and that is what is considered the actual poison path

Here's the funny [?] part: I have extensive experience in the milder poisons. I have seen and felt great concepts under their catalytic effect. But the real deal(s) have come to me in the form of skirting death without any substances involved. I refer to medical cirises, emergency rooms, hard medical drugs injected to keep me here.

When discussing his recent (1970s) heart attack that almost removed him from here, Frater Shem said, "It's different than LSD." Personally, I can cite differences and no-differences

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I'm not sure what you mean by superior or higher insight, merely that it is used powerfully as a protector and healing ally in the Amazon.

Okay. Protection and Healing. My "higher" references were to samadhi ... or dhyana.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If your wife has worked with either Cechua or Shipibo, she likely has already worked with it.

I don't know the lineage, and no she hasn't worked with it. She's a licensed physician and she knows about it ... we both know enough to stay away. Your observation on geography is correct. The climate and the soil seem to differ anywhere one goes, and the plants can certainly vary in their chemical load.

 


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Posted by: @shiva

Okay. Protection and Healing. My "higher" references were to samadhi ... or dhyana.

 

😮 oh goodness no, spirits are no help there! They tend to assist in more practical matters 😀 

Transmuting poison into medicine, or lead into gold, or anger into compassion, or war into love–all the same chant, really. East and West, North to South 🙂

Change the body, change the mind. Create in the mind, discover in the body.

Then, Tango.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

oh goodness no, spirits are no help there!

Let me be more specific about "higher." This is a relative term. I would count anything above Paroketh as "higher." But then there's still a next "higher" self. Some say the highness goes on infinitely (way above Kether), but we puny humans probably run out of "higher" at a certain, really high, point.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Let me be more specific about "higher." This is a relative term. I would count anything above Paroketh as "higher." But then there's still a next "higher" self. Some say the highness goes on infinitely (way above Kether), but we puny humans probably run out of "higher" at a certain, really high, point.

and you say you're not a philosopher hehe.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

and you say you're not a philosopher hehe.

Oh, I have a philosophy. I have written my thesis (1980). I have expressed it in many books. You were correct in the other thread when you cited non-participation in "classical philosophy." Yeah, the classes I never attended, the dead guys I never read.

I did an exploratory surgery on existentialism. I found that meaningful. I found it to be compatible with Thelema, but I agree with it's critics when they say it has no way out (no practices; no work to break the cycles).

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Add this to this very enlightening conversation re: the 8 Circuits.

Leary's system, as he was an initiate into the chakra system (I am not sure if either Hindu or Buddhist tantric).

In Vajrayana Buddhism, there are the "eight consciousness" of the Yogacara school, also important to the Mahayana school of Buddhism, but they claim that only the vajrayana can open the eighth consciousness, which has "three seeds" and this would align neatly with Shiva's adaption of Leary's system into the base 10 Tree of Life from the octave system of Leary.

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm

Congrats Shiva, you incidentally united not just east and west but past and future 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Congrats Shiva, you incidentally united not just east and west but past and future 

Thank you very much. I am honored to accept this award.

Where's the check?


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dom
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Add this to this very enlightening conversation re: the 8 Circuits.

Leary's system, as he was an initiate into the chakra system (I am not sure if either Hindu or Buddhist tantric).

In Vajrayana Buddhism, there are the "eight consciousness" of the Yogacara school, also important to the Mahayana school of Buddhism, but they claim that only the vajrayana can open the eighth consciousness, which has "three seeds" and this would align neatly with Shiva's adaption of Leary's system into the base 10 Tree of Life from the octave system of Leary.

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm

Congrats Shiva, you incidentally united not just east and west but past and future 

Could you explain what the "chakra system" has to do with the  8 circuit model?   

 

The 8 Circuit model would've emerged from insights from evolutionary biology, dimensional space and Freud's stages of development.   I don't see a correlation between e.g. the third Chakra up from the base and the 3rd manual dexterity speech-symbol circuit.  Likewise with the 2nd Chakra and the 2nd circuit.  Neither do I understand how any of the chakras over and above the 4th should somehow be more extra terrestrial than the first four as working on one's Chakras , any of them is a Circuit 5 Neurosomatic process.   It doesn't add up to say that Leary's 8 Circuit model was a chakra thing.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Could you explain what the "chakra system" has to do with the  8 circuit model? 

The chakras, the circuits, the spheres, the levels of consciousness, the auric fields (etc) are all the same thing. They are simply different systems, models, or metaphors that explain the elevator ride that sometimes seems like a roller-coaster ride. These are all correlated in (I think) The Master Codex, in a manner compatible with the 777 Tables. Since Crowley didn't know about the rays, couldn't see auras, didn't dwell on the chakras, barely mentioned the "7 planes," and was not appraised of the neurocircuits, we don't find a lot of columns in 777 devoted to these subjects. Maybe none.

To be able to perceive, directly without notes, that there is only one true spectrum of consciousness, and everything on it is like streamers on a Christ or Crowley Mass Tree, one may employ this solitary process ...

Synthesis

Posted by: @dom

 I don't see a correlation between e.g. the third Chakra up from the base and the 3rd manual dexterity speech-symbol circuit.

The chakras are tricky. Perhaps the trickiest of the correlations. They are not laid out in a linear fashion. Some things in one column may equal three rows in the column next door I speak of the 777 style). Personally (that means "in my case"), I had to resort to Oriental Medical Philosophy to get the picture. I know I sent the correlations, in Chapter form from the Codex, so I guess you didn't read them, or disagree, or simply didn't take a magnifying glass and bore in to see if it rang true.

Posted by: @dom

It doesn't add up to say that Leary's 8 Circuit model was a chakra thing.

But I believe he said Leary was an initiate of some chakra system and that probably influenced the number of circuits, which later had an 8th added. Nobody, including Leary, gave out chakra correlations.


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @dom

Could you explain what the "chakra system" has to do with the  8 circuit model?   

 

The 8 Circuit model would've emerged from insights from evolutionary biology, dimensional space and Freud's stages of development.   I don't see a correlation between e.g. the third Chakra up from the base and the 3rd manual dexterity speech-symbol circuit.  Likewise with the 2nd Chakra and the 2nd circuit.  Neither do I understand how any of the chakras over and above the 4th should somehow be more extra terrestrial than the first four as working on one's Chakras , any of them is a Circuit 5 Neurosomatic process.   It doesn't add up to say that Leary's 8 Circuit model was a chakra thing.    

Leary based the original Neurologic 7 circuit brain as derived from the chakra system, Leary was initiated into it at Mill brook mansion. That is just the history of it, it is not an interpretation of mine at all. He applied what he knew in psychology and science of the time and turned it into a more sci fi materialist version of the chakra system. You will see the the circuits do line up to a different perspective of each chakra, but Leary applies it to material things like genetics, history, even political science. Lower chakras deal with survival, mating, territory, self. Same with lower circuits, I don't see a disparity just different perspectives. Circuit Four, which would be the heart chakra, Leary puts as social circuits, dealing with partnering, family building, even taking care of the dying, all very fourth chakra activities, salvation is here on earth kind of a thing. 

I'm not suggesting using Neurologic for studying the Hindu Chakra system, even the original Hindu texts the numbers of chakras are never the same and the teaching is that chakras are created by the practitioner, they are not really there to be discovered, but created.

Leary just used that as his starting point, thats all.


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dom
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

Leary based the original Neurologic 7 circuit brain as derived from the chakra system, Leary was initiated into it at Mill brook mansion. That is just the history of it, it is not an interpretation of mine at all. He applied what he knew in psychology and science of the time and turned it into a more sci fi materialist version of the chakra system. You will see the the circuits do line up to a different perspective of each chakra,

But I don't see a correlation.  Where did Leary say or write that there is a Circuit-Chakra correlation?   That question is directed to Shiva also.   For example the Solar third Chakra up, how does that relate to Circuit 3?   I already asked that but anyways....

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Where did Leary say or write that there is a Circuit-Chakra correlation?

I don't think he did. The point being made is merely that 7 chakras have the same number as the original 7 circuits. Number, not exact correlations. As to which chakra is which circuit, well, everyone has to build their own QBL. As to the 3rd circuit, the common denominator is the anatomical/physiological terms "Limbic Brain."


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @dom

But I don't see a correlation.  Where did Leary say or write that there is a Circuit-Chakra correlation?   That question is directed to Shiva also.   For example the Solar third Chakra up, how does that relate to Circuit 3?   I already asked that but anyways....

Honestly I cannot remember where it is written in his books, but a number of histories written about that time mention Leary's induction into the chakra system and him basing his 7 circuits off of it. I know enough to know that this claim is not a controversial one. Even the Wikipedia entry for his 8 circuit model mentions the same thing although they don't list a source either, sheesh.

If I approach the chakra system from a psychological view, I do see how they correspond, so it is hard for me to see where you have gaps. 

"For example the Solar third Chakra up, how does that relate to Circuit 3?" Circuit three is symbol manipulation, the self is defined and uses semantics, has an "ego", a definable "self" with position in the world. Is that not a Solar plexus psychology/chakra as well? 


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EDIT: I dont think these things need to be perfect since they are just maps and specifically ultimately our own individual language. I think Leary did a pretty good job of an intuitive rosetta stone to cross study various systems created by adepts through the mystery schools of nature.

So Leary's circuits, the chakras could also be another view of the 6 worlds (hell, spirit realm, animal realm, human, asuras, gods.) of reincarnation in Buddhism.

Why 6 and not 7? or 8? well it is evolution, so it is not like there is a clear demarkation or delineation where one world starts and another begins. Just like we sometimes see 4 chakra systems, 6 chakra systems, etc.

Does that make sense? It is an intuitive art, this one 🙂


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If I approach the chakra system from a psychological view, I do see how they correspond, so it is hard for me to see where you have gaps. 

You have now entered a conversation that dom and I have been having, on and off, for 2 or 3 years. About the circuits and which or what goes where.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

"For example the Solar third Chakra up, how does that relate to Circuit 3?"

It doesn't, in my mind. I would not agree, but I will not argue, debate, or insist.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I dont think these things need to be perfect since they are just maps and specifically ultimately our own individual language.

Precisely. For example, one's QBL (map room) needs to be only perfect enough to allow one the alignment to get past Paroketh. (Yes, it gets repeated again after that, but the QBL is secondary by that time).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

it is not like there is a clear demarkation or delineation where one world starts and another begins.

Aha. This is one of the concepts I am examining right now, discussing it with others, and I will be writing a booklet or a short story about it (the gray zones, the neutral zones). In the Halls of arcania, they are called the Veils. I have come to apprecicated that the veils, the gaps in consciousness (the transitional realms) might be more important than the spheres.

Of course, nothing is "more important." Perhaps "under-reported" or "under-emphasized" is more correct.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Honestly I cannot remember where it is written in his books, but a number of histories written about that time mention Leary's induction into the chakra system and him basing his 7 circuits off of it.

They probably assumed it and got it wrong.  It's like saying the plumbing system of a hotel is based upon the electrical system.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @dom

They probably assumed it and got it wrong.  It's like saying the plumbing system of a hotel is based upon the electrical system. 

Well I am not sure why you would think that. It is not an assumption by any means. But actually that is not a bad metaphor, consider, you want to align the electrical system out of the way of the plumbing system hehe so while it might not be based off each other, they certainly do need to consult, eh?

Let's take the very first circuit, bio survival, and the very "first" chakra (although there is no such thing! chakra systems are created, intentionally. I dont mean that in some esoteric way, like we all create reality and everything is empty, I mean that is the actual teaching, chakras are created in the mind by the adept).

Dealing only with this chakra and circuit, where do you find a contradiction with relating to the chakra and the circuit here?

 

EDIT: not sure if it was intentional, but dig the "fire and water" metaphor and your metaphor is a good example of the two main channels discovered in the body that run along the central channel, along the chakras that were also created in the mind 🙂


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Aha. This is one of the concepts I am examining right now, discussing it with others, and I will be writing a booklet or a short story about it (the gray zones, the neutral zones)

This is where all the new money is going 🙂

Likely the paths are apart of this for the tree of life comparison, blending. I think you mentioned that previously.


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In Tibetan Buddhism, there are 32 Kings of Shambhala.

The first 7 kings are demarked from the following 25 Kings after them, as in a clear distinct order.

However the 8th King of Shambhala was the complete "summary" of the first 7, which made this particular King the first of the "Kalki Kings", which is a lineage that, according to the scriptures, is still rolling out, with I believe 3 more Kings to go before Golden Age.

http://chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/The_32_Kings_of_Shambhala

I find this interesting because it may be somewhat similar to Leary taking the chakra system, re-invigorating it with psychology and western materialistic science, and transposing it onto history.

Is the Golden Age of the Tantrics of Shambhala and Leary's SMILE perhaps one in the same scenario?

One thing I learned from Leary which is I think one of his great contributions. Lets toss out words like chakra, spirits, etc etc and lets view things as systems of intelligence.

 

FINAL EDIT, PROMISE: Leary said that any genuine occult system is only doing one thing, helping us understand a.)where we are from b.) where we are going. c.) where we are now. And it is up to the adepts to decode these electrical signals as they emerge from within the nervous system.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

It's like saying the plumbing system of a hotel is based upon the electrical system.  

There is only one system. Plumbing, electrical, phone, and internet are simply different folks' practical applications that adapt to one section or another.

 


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More fun stuff: Eight chakras, Eight Brains

The 8 manifestations of Padmasambhava, where as the tantric position is that Padmasambhava is "the mind" and if we translate TB into Leary we get "mind defined by the buddhists =  intelligence as defined by Leary".

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eight_Manifestations_of_Guru_Rinpoche

SO in TB, we get both 32 paths of the tree of life with the 32 Kings of Shambhala with a strong alchemical placeholder for the 8 circuits plus the pathways, AND an Eight circuit brain model and way to program the brain, rewire the entire thing, from the subconscious out.

Unite with thine art so that all disappear. Lets look at what the "8 manifestations of the Holy Guardian Angel" can look like 👍 

I suppose if we are having a struggle uniting this system with that system and this other system, it just means we're not using creative thinking enough and need to boost our imagination hehe

it aint a science, its an art and a science.


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Posted by: @dom

It's like saying the plumbing system of a hotel is based upon the electrical system.  

No, the plumbing system of a hotel is not based on its electrical system

But they are very closely related, in that they go to all the same rooms, and have the same purpose (which they accomplish on their different planes).

Anyone trying to understand how a hotel woks, or who was trying to operate a hotel, and who did not pay attention to these facts of the design of the hotel would not be able to do a very good job of hotel-running (or hotel-understanding in the first, abstract, case).

 


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Posted by: @ignant666

they are very closely related, in that they go to all the same rooms

AC/DC/Wifi/Water/Sewer/Phone-for room service (the "waiter" will appear).

 


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Posted by: @shiva

It doesn't, in my mind. I would not agree, but I will not argue, debate, or insist.

 

Regarding corresponding the third circuit with leary to a third solar plexus chakra. In Leary's system, it is the third chakra that makes us "human" in the natural world. It gives us power to create and manipulate reality through symbols and maps of the self and universe. Since it is the third chakra, it doesnt give us the awareness that is what we are indeed actually doing, it just gives us the tools and technology to do it, a brain to do those things.

Just like the solar plexus chakra controls the stomach, the breaking down of food into self. Our digestive system is really just breaking down genetic scripts and then rewriting those scripts to match our own genetic makeup. rebuilding genetic maps from molecules and into proteins is pretty impressive intelligence we all have operating at the solar plexus level.

So you can see that at one level, this circuit is like wizard nano technology genius, even tho it is only the higher circuits that will understand that the vehicle has this inherent capability.

I see perfect alignment with the 3d chakra and 3rd circuit.

Someone I know is a pretty high level neuroscientist at the university level, professor. I was surprised to hear that he thought Leary was spot on with circuits 1 - 7, he just thought connecting the brain with the sub atomic level part was BS.

But its not BS hehe its the only possible thing it can be!


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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

egarding corresponding the third circuit with leary to a third solar plexus chakra.

Um, I may have gotten mixed up  in what I agree to or refuse to debate.

In this case, in my mind, and in my QBL, the third neurocircuit is indeed linked to the third chakra, the solar plexus. Dom fails to see this connection. I fail fall over myself in seeing the attribution.

I suspect the disagreement might come over the 4th circuit, which I also attribute to the solar plexus, which is dual-natured in its physiology and in its visual configuration when viewed as a structure in the energy field, and when viewed as being on the same plane on the Tree.

Maybe not (the potential disagreement).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I see perfect alignment with the 3d chakra and 3rd circuit.

Agreed. All that other stuff you said is water under the bridge, as I agree. Since we agree on this singular fact, what shall we call our New World Religion? It will somehow have to include the number 3, the Trinity, and perhaps our secred doc can be that silly Book of Lies.


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

 

, the plumbing system of a hotel is not based on its electrical system

But they are very closely related, in that they go to all the same rooms, and have the same purpose (which they accomplish on their different planes).

Anyone trying to understand how a hotel woks, or who was trying to operate a hotel, and who did not pay attention to these facts of the design of the hotel would not be able to do a very good job of hotel-running (or hotel-understanding in the first, abstract, case).

 

..yet still we cannot say that the Circuits consecutively correlate with the Chakras?  It's tricky as Chakras are a pseudo-science loved in New Age space-fairy groups where shoehorning is the rule.

 

   

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Regarding corresponding the third circuit with leary to a third solar plexus chakra. In Leary's system, it is the third chakra that makes us "human" in the natural world. It gives us power to create and manipulate reality through symbols and maps of the self and universe. Since it is the third chakra, it doesnt give us the awareness that is what we are indeed actually doing, it just gives us the tools and technology to do it, a brain to do those things.

Just like the solar plexus chakra controls the stomach, the breaking down of food into self. Our digestive system is really just breaking down genetic scripts and then rewriting those scripts to match our own genetic makeup. rebuilding genetic maps from molecules and into proteins is pretty impressive intelligence we all have operating at the solar plexus level.

 

Whoa......now you're attributing Chakras to the endocrinal system and we're going off on that tangent?  That's been done before due to the physiological location of those glands correlating to the Chakra-spectral colour scheme locations and if you want to get creative about this (and you have) you could argue that the heart also emits hormones so we can give that the Heart Chakra role.  

This is becoming pseudo-science though, a mere 777 game of finding patterns as you like it.  Why not I guess?  It is occultism after all.   If you want to somehow attribute the toddler primate status -pack Circuit to the Orange Chakra go ahead be my guest.  🙂 

I know it's not a Chakra thread but Doc Wilhelm Reich discovered seven specific bodily regions where emotions are suppressed by the (ego) muscles.   He dug into these regions (in his patients)  in his therapy and specific emotions were released so he inadvertently stimulated the mystical Chakras to function properly once more.  Those regions correlate to the traditional Chakra regions.  Apparently most men have tight muscles around the Solar Plexus regions due to the 'boys don't cry' conditioning of our culture.   That is an inert Solar Plexus  Chakra. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @dom

Chakras are a pseudo-science loved in New Age space-fairy groups

As opposed to the scientific rigor of Leary and Wilson?

Puh-leeze. Pot-kettle issues, and not for the first time, david.


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @dom

Chakras are a pseudo-science loved in New Age space-fairy groups

As opposed to the scientific rigor of Leary and Wilson?

Puh-leeze. Pot-kettle issues, and not for the first time, david.

Well yeah an engineering drop-out and a Psychologist.   I edited (added more info) whilst you posted that by the way. 

Posted by: @shiva

 

Was this the thread were you claim that Crolwey couldn't "see auras"?  Nope that'll be wrong he gave an account of reading  W.B.Yeats's aura in The Confessions.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

yet still we cannot say that the Circuits consecutively correlate with the Chakras?

Yes, this is true. Especially since the chakras do not "open" in a vertical manner. People have the idea of the kundalini rising up like a volcano or elevator. But they get awakened in a non-sequential manner, and the sequence can vary among different tourists. O.M. says the same thing in One Star. Something about the grades not always being earned in consecutive order, and how it was too complex to discuss. 

So, you see, he put it aside for us to have to clean up. I've washed enough of these dishes, and put it in print, to be exempt from caring, but at least I'll admit to some slippery topics.

Posted by: @dom

It's tricky

Yeah. I said slippery. I'm sure we mean the same thing.

Posted by: @dom

Chakras are a pseudo-science

You go too far, now. Pseudo means "false." I will agree that they are an "occult" science, because they are hidden from normal view, because people can't see them (normally). Since I cannot only sense, feel, and see them, and have been (previously) commissioned by the State of California and The U.S. Gov 9indirectly of course, through accreditation and approval agencies) to teach this stuff for medical purposes, you might want to consider what is woo-woo and what is possibly true.

Posted by: @dom

Whoa......now you're attributing Chakras to the endocrinal system and we're going off on that tangent?

It is not a tangent. It is a "component." One chakra (the energy field surrounding a neural plexus that is measuable with electronic instruments) = one corresponding endocrine gland = one primary hormone = one specific mode of consciousness = one specific pathogenic emotions.

Yeah, and throw in a linked neurocircuit to make it run properly.

It's all one happy machine, everything working together in identifiable patterns. Until something gets stuck. Then ill-ness or dis-ease sets in. These concepts are well known, even by the common folks, in many Oriental venues.

Posted by: @dom

you could argue that the heart also emits hormones

The heart is associated with the thymus gland, which secretes the hormone. The heart does not secrete hormones. It does have an electromagnetic energy field radiating from the cardiac (neural) plexus. 

Posted by: @dom

This is becoming pseudo-science though, a mere 777 game of finding patterns as you like it.

It's funny how this "false" science stuff works in homeopathi and Ayurvedic medicine, not to mention acupuncture. It's funny how I have cured (in some cases) or relieved (in other cases) countless conditions that westerm medicine could not touch, but only dull with opiates or tranqs. The voice you are raising right now is the same voice raised by western medical doctors when Oriental medicine first came ashore. They lost. You will lose if you continue to deny it doesn't exist.

Posted by: @dom

he gave an account of reading  W.B.Yeats's aura in The Confessions.

I'll have to look that one up to see if he was reading an aura or painting wishful thinkings. Do you have a Chapter number?

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

I suspect the disagreement might come over the 4th circuit, which I also attribute to the solar plexus, which is dual-natured in its physiology and in its visual configuration when viewed as a structure in the energy field, and when viewed as being on the same plane on the Tree.

Maybe not (the potential disagreement).

I see the fourth chakra as the fourth circuit. Its the civilization building circuit. Its how we relate to each other, how we can grow from a tribe to a civilization and work through the sheer complexity of it all, its the circuit of how we all need to stick together one way or another, do unto others or the state may do unto you. Christianity and Buddhism both civilization building religions. Where we think we go when we die creates the organization we need to survive as a society. 

Posted by: @shiva

Since we agree on this singular fact, what shall we call our New World Religion?

Will have a sleep on that one lol

 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

This is becoming pseudo-science though, a mere 777 game of finding patterns as you like it.

It's funny how this "false" science stuff works in homeopathi and Ayurvedic medicine, not to mention acupuncture. It's funny how I have cured (in some cases) or relieved (in other cases) countless conditions that westerm medicine could not touch, but only dull with opiates or tranqs. The voice you are raising right now is the same voice raised by western medical doctors when Oriental medicine first came ashore. They lost. You will lose if you continue to deny it doesn't exist.

Denied emotions get stuck in muscles.  That causes imbalance and that is very real, if you want to use the Chakra map of the body to find out where the effects of this damage is then you can use the Chakra metaphor (with their colours) so no I am not saying that your therapies don't work  at all.   All I was saying was that the attributions have to be correct. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Spot The Difference Odd One Out (a parlour game):

Example A:

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

 I don't see a correlation between e.g. the third Chakra up from the base and the 3rd manual dexterity speech-symbol circuit.

The chakras are tricky. Perhaps the trickiest of the correlations. They are not laid out in a linear fashion.

Example B:

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

"For example the Solar third Chakra up, how does that relate to Circuit 3?"

It doesn't, in my mind.

Example C:

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

yet still we cannot say that the Circuits consecutively correlate with the Chakras?

Yes, this is true. Especially since the chakras do not "open" in a vertical manner.

&   Example D:

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I see perfect alignment with the 3d chakra and 3rd circuit.

Agreed.

Unfortunately no prizes available to any winners...

Come on, @dom, where's that Confessions chapter reference then?  After all, you have read it so many hundreds of times now!

N Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

Unfortunately no prizes available to any winners...

Come on, @dom, where's that Confessions chapter reference then?  After all, you have read it so many hundreds of times now!

N Joy

F___ knows, maybe "Young Crolwey" or "Crowley, Golden Dawn years" or "Crowley; early poetry period".  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @dom

Whoa......now you're attributing Chakras to the endocrinal system and we're going off on that tangent?  That's been done before due to the physiological location of those glands correlating to the Chakra-spectral colour scheme locations and if you want to get creative about this (and you have) you could argue that the heart also emits hormones so we can give that the Heart Chakra role.  

What do you mean by "attributing"? The general physical area of the solar plexus is a real organ called a stomach. That organ really does break down food and rewires those molecules from food, things like cheese, beans, ice cream, cotten candy, wheat, etc into our bones, eyes, skin, muscle etc.

That is neither a pseudoscientific claim nor a controversial claim. Our bodies are brilliant nanotechnologists. The "chakra" itself is the imaginary thing in the equation.

It is only really there if you create it to be really there in your mind.

Posted by: @dom

This is becoming pseudo-science though, a mere 777 game of finding patterns as you like it.  Why not I guess?  It is occultism after all.   If you want to somehow attribute the toddler primate status -pack Circuit to the Orange Chakra go ahead be my guest.  🙂 

 

  • Referring to pre scientific traditions (astrology, iching, tarot, etc) as pseudoscience would reveal a shockingly uncouth and biased view of other cultures as well as a poor understanding of the Philosophy of Science, which is where the word "pseudoscience" is derived.
  • It is an art AND a science. And "science" we mean something empirical, something that we can use to make predictions, and something we can try and falsify, prove to be bullshit.
    Posted by: @dom

    know it's not a Chakra thread but Doc Wilhelm Reich discovered seven specific bodily regions where emotions are suppressed by the (ego) muscles.

     

    OMG are you talking about that Pseudoscientist of all pseudoscientist Wilhelm Reich?

  • ALL PSYCHOLOGY IS pseudoscience, in the strict Popper definition of the term.
  • The "Popper" definition of the term refers to Karl Popper, the philosopher of science who coined and defined the term pseudoscience and what makes something a pseudoscience.

EDIT: This IS a chakra thread, as we are talking about the eight circuit brain, where ya been?

 

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Yes, this is true. Especially since the chakras do not "open" in a vertical manner. People have the idea of the kundalini rising up like a volcano or elevator. But they get awakened in a non-sequential manner, and the sequence can vary among different tourists. O.M. says the same thing in One Star. Something about the grades not always being earned in consecutive order, and how it was too complex to discuss. 

If your chakra is not correlating to the appropriate circuit then you just need to create a better chakra system that can 🙂


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sangewanchuck56
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Spot The Difference Odd One Out (a parlour game):

Example A:

@jamiejbarter hehe well well I could use one of you in every conversation.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I see the fourth chakra as the fourth circuit.

Yes. You previously mentioned this in passing. This is where I suspiciously suspected that we might not agree. This thread is full of posts today, suggesting that it a hot topic ... or at least one with many contending viewpoints. This is the part where I decline further (debate, argument, war, mental distress). So I will simply go looking for the chart that summarizes my conclusions. Surely, it will make some folks have intestinal disorders ...

Okay, it turned out to be 2 charts, yet not the one I was looking for. These will have to do ...

circ

 

chakras
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Unfortunately no prizes available to any winners...

Unfortunately, you have quoted quotes out of context, so we'll give the prizes to charity and hang the judges.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @dom

Whoa......now you're attributing Chakras to the endocrinal system and we're going off on that tangent?  That's been done before due to the physiological location of those glands correlating to the Chakra-spectral colour scheme locations and if you want to get creative about this (and you have) you could argue that the heart also emits hormones so we can give that the Heart Chakra role.  

What do you mean by "attributing"? The general physical area of the solar plexus is a real organ called a stomach. That organ really does break down food and rewires those molecules from food, things like cheese, beans, ice cream, cotten candy, wheat, etc into our bones, eyes, skin, muscle etc.

That is neither a pseudoscientific claim nor a controversial claim. Our bodies are brilliant nanotechnologists. The "chakra" itself is the imaginary thing in the equation.

It is only really there if you create it to be really there in your 

 

So we think with our Solar Chakra? The third circuit is instigated when children begin to learn words and learn how to use simple tools.  Isn't it the Japanese who view the hara centre as another brain?  Maybe you're right or maybe hara is lower and is the second Chakra.  Well it is orange which is the colour of Hod.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

hara is lower and is the second Chakra.

The Hara is situated near the second chakra (sacral plexus) in terms of anatomy and space/time coordinates, but it (Hara) lies in a deeper dimension than the chakra, which itself is "deeper" than the neural plexus, which itself is deeper than what we can see with our eyes (unless we go in with a scalpel).

To access this multi-dimensional network, we use acupoint Ren 6, "The Sea of Chi," which is located 1.5 osteo-inches below Ren 8 (the Navel or Umbilicus). It would be hard for me to anally recite more technical details.

The Solar Plexus is located upstairs, right below the diaphragm (Paroketh), and right in what we call "the middle" (Stomach location).

The chakras are theoretically "colored" according to the light spectrum (Red, Orange, Yellow ... up to Violet at the top). But they do not necessarily radiate these colors. When seen, three examples are ...

7. Base Chakra - Red-Orange ("Chinese Red").
2. Sacral Chakra - Pink
3. Solar Plexus - Green & Yellow
etc - but usually different from the simplistic New-Age color chart

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @dom

So we think with our Solar Chakra?

Unfortunately quite often.

Posted by: @dom

The third circuit is instigated when children begin to learn words and learn how to use simple tools.

if we are looking at this intelligence and how it manifests in different and unique environments, yes.

Recapitulation. Something identical or similar repeats in all environments, manmade, kabbalistic, it does not matter.

 

Posted by: @dom

Isn't it the Japanese who view the hara centre as another brain? 

They will need to join the club

Posted by: @dom

Maybe you're right or maybe hara is lower and is the second Chakra.  Well it is orange which is the colour of Hod.

It is any color you want or need it to be.

Aikido uses four chakra system, and in that type of system, solar plexus and lower 2 chakras are just considered 1 chakra (which you can do if it makes sense too! the dan tien is a whole system dynamic, and depending on which system you are working it can emerge different ways. Shiva is doing a much more detailed and clearer summary than I, i am sloppy in comparison).

Its not that I am either right or wrong, there is just my style that i have created in this way so as to be in harmony with all similar forms of "mind, spirit, intelligence, etc etc"

You could make a perfectly good case of doing it another way and completely convince me to adopt.

For me, I use the predictive power of my model to see how helpful it is, or not. Can I make a prediction about another system? Can that prediction hold up or does it fall apart?

After 30 years of doing that, things can evolve quite elegantly 🙂


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

7. Base Chakra - Red-Orange ("Chinese Red").
2. Sacral Chakra - Pink
3. Solar Plexus - Green & Yellow
etc - but usually different from the simplistic New-Age color chart

 

Friend, we could sorely use some assistance in uniting the "five lights" or "five elements" of the eastern tantric system (not taoist) with the color system of the chakras in the "new age west".

Asking for a friend 🙂


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

we could sorely use some assistance in uniting the "five lights" or "five elements" of the eastern tantric system (not taoist)

Oh, goodness and the eight fairies. My formal training is in what would probably be the Taoist system (Chines Medicine), which is based on the color someone turns when anyone has a strong imbalance in one of the elements. Peoples' skin turns black, green, red, yellow, or white. So that one (the Taoist) is not an abstract notion, but an observation of natural pathology.

I don't know much, or maybe anything, about the Hindu-Vedic system or its colors, but it was the predecessor of the Chinese system.

I am reporting the colors as they appear, when healthy, in the Ajna Viewing Maneuver. There will be little correlation with any of the abstract systems. Since this "Maneuver" does not appear in 777, and it is not mentioned in the Crowley works, there is little to provide a "common denominator" here in LAShTAL.

The "common denominator(s)" I speak of are shared by those folks who are known as clairvoyants. I have met a few of them, and we may use different terminology, but we see the same thing ... so the words can easily be swept aside and agreement can be found.

Again, I am not referring to known abstract systems, but rather to the practice of medicine. I believe the whole deal is lumped under the title of "Energetic Medicine." It includes needles, herbs, hands-on (Tui Na, Chi Gong, Tai Chi, etc), Pranayama, etc). These are all listed under the Scope of Practice of licensed primary healthcare practitioners (in the USA). So, you see, it is not abstract ... except to people who are unfamiliar with such concepts, which includes most of the citizens of our western civilization.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

I don't know much, or maybe anything, about the Hindu-Vedic system or its colors, but it was the predecessor of the Chinese system.

yes, that too actually. at least on my journey, which is always pretty much sloppy and all over the place, and foolish enough just to make the right mistakes at the right time. So my journey is always at least attempting to find the harmony between schools and languages, a la Rosetta Stone. That is why I always loved Leary's system, it made it easiest for me to do that.

The Five Lights and Five Elements is in Hindu tantra but I just assume that,  but I am speaking from the Tibetan tantric schools, including the BonPo. The elements line up with the west, but not with the toaist. These Himalayan adepts school's have similarities with both some western schools and also some toaist schools, but also some conflicts, the elements and colors are counterintuitive, especially when it comes to colors and the chakras, which is important for visualization if anyone is doing true tantra (magick).

Additionally, the lineage of the BonPo claims back 18,000 years, which is an unusually long historical lineage, so things like Taoist interpretations, Buddhist, even Gnostic or Judaic, Babylonian could have been influenced by that lineage should their own dating be accurate.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Unfortunately no prizes available to any winners...

Unfortunately, you have quoted quotes out of context, so we'll give the prizes to charity and hang the judges.

However, fortunately, there's been no editing or re-arranging words/lines out of sequence, and as with all uses of 'fair use' quotation (for example) one has to select a start and end point somewhere, else one would end up quoting (=duplicating) the entirety of the piece in question.

B-but as stated though there are no prizes available, whether to give to charity or whatever...

No need to bring in any hanging judges! (The correct answer was Example D because it is the only one to assent to perfect alignment twixt chakra and circuit use categorical language)

Yours elucidatingly

N Joy


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sangewanchuck56
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@shiva I apologize I was rather vague.

Specifically, The Five Pure Lights  As you can see, traditionally it aligns with a western system element wise, but not color to chakra wise, in addition to not clearly aligning at all with Taoist system, which almost seems to intentionally thumb its nose at their northern brethren. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

a la Rosetta Stone

Yeah, that's the one. The one that looks like a crystal ball. You have mentioned taking an intuitive approach, and I believe the crystal ball is the 3D outside world.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the lineage of the BonPo claims back 18,000 years

Why that exact same number was quoted to me as part of my "initiation" into that "unbroken" lineage. I asked a fellow traveler (my A.'.A.'. student who I introduced to this Tibetan stuff, and he went on to outstrip me in the Empowerment game), "What is this 18,000 year stuff?"

He essentially poo-pood it, I can't remember what he said. Now I see you writing that number, and it all clicks.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

no editing or re-arranging words/lines out of sequence

You are attempting to construct a duality. If "the chakras are not opened sequentially" BUT "the third circuit is the 3rd chakra," these are not in conflict at all, because the other circuits might not line up so neatly. SW56 and I were just discussing this in relation to the 4th circuit and Tiphareth OR Netzach.

That's all.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

"What is this 18,000 year stuff?"

 

Its a real mystery to me. The BonPo claim of an 18,000 year old tradition that began with their own Buddha is not challenged within the schools of Buddhism, even Robert Thurman will repeat that claim.

There is no evidence of that claim that I am aware of other than it just being a consistent claim in their lineage, however, there is also no reason to discard it.

One thing about the BonPo we do know, is that however old the lineage, it pre-dates Buddhism, and it is still one clear transmission line, with zero interruptions, sex scandals, malevolent popes, raging ego maniacs and ZERO Trump supporters, hehe wish I could say the same of some other Western Traditions.

Why is Tibetan Buddhism unique in all of Buddhism? Because of the influence of the BonPo.

 


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sangewanchuck56
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Posted by: @shiva

Yeah, that's the one. The one that looks like a crystal ball. You have mentioned taking an intuitive approach, and I believe the crystal ball is the 3D outside world.

I'm not sure if I follow this but again I was not super clear either. I mean Rosetta Stone as a metaphor, the Rosetta Stone being the actual discovery in archeology and it was what allowed us to read Egyptian hieroglyphics because the stone contained the same text but in Greek. If it was not for the Rosetta Stone, we would have no concept of Egyptian language and how to decipher hieroglyphics, so it was a language map of translation.

As a metaphor, that is how I describe Leary's system, because it takes a number of occult systems and aligns them psychologically with science. While the result is technically pseudoscience, it is also a working tantra and very useful, at least to me.


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