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obscurus
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26/06/2014 1:48 pm  

May we hear from Mr. Wilson on our favorite subject? Scans made from the very large, brittle, single sheet.
I know I didn't do this right, so please accept my apologies. I hate the machine.


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lashtal
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26/06/2014 4:50 pm  

Excellent, obscuruspaintus. Many thanks.

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newneubergOuch2
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26/06/2014 10:35 pm  

Great stuff.


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arthuremerson
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27/06/2014 12:39 am  

Thank you, obscuruspaintus.

The complete text is here, and the format may be easier on the eyes for some: http://rawilsonfans.com/the-great-beast-aleister-crowley/

The same page hosts a number of Wilson's writings: http://rawilsonfans.com/writings/


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lashtal
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27/06/2014 12:56 am  

Thanks, arthuremerson.

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 Anonymous
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27/06/2014 10:09 am  

For those interested, a complete (and rather mind-blowing) archive of The Realist can be found here: www.ep.tc/realist/91/09.html
...and the link will take you directly to the Crowley piece.

Zymotic


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Anonymous
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15/09/2014 12:06 am  

I wouldn't say that Wilson was really a Thelemite.  He dismissed Liber Al


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Tao
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15/09/2014 2:25 am  

"In terms of personal mental hygiene, Thelemic thinking is undoubtedly healthier than all traditional morality. If you recognize that your latest problem is totally without "moral" significance -- for instance, you have a disease which you can't, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, blame on anybody -- then it's just a question of coping with the situation as best you can. When you finally realize that people are on the same natural evolutionary continuum with bacteria and wild animals, then you can begin to deal with hostile humans the same way you deal with infections or four-legged predators -- rationally, without claiming you're "right" or they're "wrong." This discourages cruel fanaticism, and encourages sane horse-trading. It is then that one fully appreciates the great liberation implicit in Crowley's "Do What Thou Wilt" and becomes free, really free, instead of being an unwilling actor in a soap opera written by the superstitious barbarians who created morality 30,000 years ago. You are also free of anger, hatred and resentment -- which are great burdens to drop. They live happiest who have understood and forgiven all."

Odd words from one who "dismissed Liber Al." Do you have a citation for that "dismissal"? His review of " The Law Is For All" seems to contradict your claim.

http://www.rawillumination.net/2011/05/raw-on-aleister-crowley-this-essaybook.html?m=1


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Anonymous
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15/09/2014 11:40 pm  

yes that book about his LSD experiments and numerological coincidences, the one which features a certain defrocked university Psychology professor.  PK Dick's review is on the back cover amongst others.  It was a kind of bio.  See the chapter on Crowley and/or go to the index and search for Book of the Law.


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Tao
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16/09/2014 10:15 pm  
"david" wrote:
yes that book about his LSD experiments and numerological coincidences, the one which features a certain defrocked university Psychology professor.  PK Dick's review is on the back cover amongst others.  It was a kind of bio.  See the chapter on Crowley and/or go to the index and search for Book of the Law.

If this joke of a citation is meant to refer to Cosmic Trigger, I think you'll find that he does the exact opposite. Nuit herself overarches every bleeding illustration for crissakes. Unless, of course, you're using some newly invented definition of the word "dismiss". Or you're cryptically referring to one of his other works.

Which is it, oh great slayer of Goliath?

::)


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Anonymous
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20/09/2014 11:58 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
yes that book about his LSD experiments and numerological coincidences, the one which features a certain defrocked university Psychology professor.  PK Dick's review is on the back cover amongst others.  It was a kind of bio.  See the chapter on Crowley and/or go to the index and search for Book of the Law.

If this joke of a citation is meant to refer to Cosmic Trigger, I think you'll find that he does the exact opposite. Nuit herself overarches every bleeding illustration for crissakes. Unless, of course, you're using some newly invented definition of the word "dismiss". Or you're cryptically referring to one of his other works.

Which is it, oh great slayer of Goliath?

::)

Maybe you would like to quote the bit about him professing to us that, "the libertarian" (?) does not accept it's, "Nietzschean, Darwinian" overtones or the like?   


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Tao
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21/09/2014 12:17 am  

As I asked before: Citation?

In not trying to argue with you here but, if you're going to claim an author said something, it's general practice to provide a citation of it so that the reader is able to further educate herself on said thing. Without one, your posts really don't hold much weight.


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Anonymous
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21/09/2014 10:49 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
As I asked before: Citation?

In not trying to argue with you here but, if you're going to claim an author said something, it's general practice to provide a citation of it so that the reader is able to further educate herself on said thing. Without one, your posts really don't hold much weight.

You've got a copy of the book I don't.  I'm sure if you go to the chapter on Crowley and/or Liber Al  transmission in that book you could find it in no more than 30 seconds.  I mean do you think I'm making this up or something? 


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lashtal
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21/09/2014 11:15 pm  
"david" wrote:
You've got a copy of the book I don't.  I'm sure if you go to the chapter on Crowley and/or Liber Al  transmission in that book you could find it in no more than 30 seconds.  I mean do you think I'm making this up or something? 

Calm down, David. You've made an assertion and other members have asked for a reference. It's not for them to do your research for you.

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Tao
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22/09/2014 12:39 am  

The thing is, I did the research based on my assumption (still unconfirmed) that the "citation" provided above was meant to reference Cosmic Trigger. I did this because I have read that book (along with much of Bob's oevre) multiple times and it would surprise me greatly to discover that he "dismissed" Liber Legis. If that did, in fact, happen anywhere in his written work, I would very much like to read over it in order to readjust my understanding of a writer I thought I knew pretty well.

As I said in my response, you'll find that, in Cosmic Trigger, he writes the exact opposite of what you have claimed. So, to answer your question: Yes, thus far, for want of a verifiable citation, I think you're making this up or something.


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Anonymous
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22/09/2014 11:07 pm  

I don't have a copy of Cosmic Trigger.  I'd have to have one for the exact citation page.  I know which section it is I mean there's only one section on Liber Al in there but anyway thanks for having a look.


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lashtal
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22/09/2014 11:31 pm  

David,

"david" wrote:
I don't have a copy of Cosmic Trigger.  I'd have to have one for the exact citation page.  I know which section it is I mean there's only one section on Liber Al in there but anyway thanks for having a look.

Okay, I'll do your research for you.

The paragraph that you appear to be misremembering and misrepresenting in on page 61 of the 1977 Abacus paperback edition:

It is this synthesis of Eastern and Western occult traditions with modern scientific method that is probably Crowley's major achievement. His notorious anti-Christian philosophy - a blend of Nietzschean Supermanism and anarch-fascist Darwinism - is quite distinct from his methodology. Whether you like that philosophy or not (and the Libertarian does not), you can still use the methodology of research Crowley devised.

To summarise this nuanced view as 'He dismissed Liber Al' is disingenuous at best.

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Tao
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23/09/2014 7:02 am  

Thanks for that, lashtal. p.71 of the 2002 New Falcon edition.


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Anonymous
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25/09/2014 12:27 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
David,

"david" wrote:
I don't have a copy of Cosmic Trigger.  I'd have to have one for the exact citation page.  I know which section it is I mean there's only one section on Liber Al in there but anyway thanks for having a look.

Okay, I'll do your research for you.

The paragraph that you appear to be misremembering and misrepresenting in on page 61 of the 1977 Abacus paperback edition:

It is this synthesis of Eastern and Western occult traditions with modern scientific method that is probably Crowley's major achievement. His notorious anti-Christian philosophy - a blend of Nietzschean Supermanism and anarch-fascist Darwinism - is quite distinct from his methodology. Whether you like that philosophy or not (and the Libertarian does not), you can still use the methodology of research Crowley devised.

To summarise this nuanced view as 'He dismissed Liber Al' is disingenuous at best.

Ok,he dismissed it as being,"anarcho-fascistic?"  No one could deny that.  Furthermore you don't think Wilson seems to be moralizing when he says,"and the Libertarian does not (like the anarcho-fascist philosophy?) 


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Tao
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25/09/2014 2:33 am  

david, I'd recommend getting a copy of the text in your hands before continuing this line of argument. For one thing, the bit that lashtal was kind enough to look up for you is neither in the section on Liber Legis nor does it reference the book in any way. The anarcho-fashistic Darwinism is, most likely, a read of Crowley's later attempts at social planning a la Liber OZ, though RAW does not say so directly. We can certainly take this as a critique of Crowley's development of Thelema, but not of Liber Legis itself.

For another, "the Libertarian" to which he refers is a mode of his (RAW's) own consciousness. It is a literary device he uses to dissociate the multiple reality-tunnels that co-exist within his personality while highlighting that none of them actually are his Self. It is a proper noun in this context, not a descriptor of a class of individuals. RAW is not moralizing, he is noting his personal feelings on the matter.

Your memory of the text is flawed. There's no shame in that unless you insist in pushing that flawed reading.


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lashtal
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25/09/2014 2:51 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
For one thing, the bit that lashtal was kind enough to look up for you is neither in the section on Liber Legis nor does it reference the book in any way.

That's correct - the lengthier sections on Liber Legis are not relevant to david's assertion, since RAW provides no judgement on it, simply recounting the circumstances of its reception, highlighting some of the cabalistic 'secrets' hidden therein, and comparing and contrasting it with other 'received' or 'channelled' writing.

"Tao" wrote:
For another, "the Libertarian" to which he refers is a mode of his (RAW's) own consciousness. It is a literary device he uses to dissociate the multiple reality-tunnels that co-exist within his personality while highlighting that none of them actually are his Self. It is a proper noun in this context, not a descriptor of a class of individuals. RAW is not moralizing, he is noting his personal feelings on the matter.

Your memory of the text is flawed. There's no shame in that unless you insist in pushing that flawed reading.

Precisely. And well said.

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Anonymous
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25/09/2014 11:03 pm  

well are you yourself denying that there are no fascist-anarcho statements in Liber Al?  Clearly there are and surely Wilson thought so .  I'm putting 2 and 2 together here. 

By the way thanks for reproducing that passage.


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Los
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25/09/2014 11:42 pm  
"david" wrote:
well are you yourself denying that there are no fascist-anarcho statements in Liber Al?

You're not being nuanced enough. You were making claims about Wilson dismissing Liber AL itself. But if we look at the passage above, he doesn't dismiss Liber AL as a whole. He objects to Crowley's "notorious anti-Christian philosophy" as distinct from the methodology Crowley advocated.

You seem to be drawing these really broad equivalencies that aren't serving you.


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Tao
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26/09/2014 12:40 am  
"david" wrote:
well are you yourself denying that there are no fascist-anarcho statements in Liber Al?

What is a "fascist-anarcho statement"? Could you provide examples from Liber Legis that you believe fit the term?

"david" wrote:
Clearly there are and surely Wilson thought so .

 
Based on my conversations with him near the end of his life, I'd have to tentatively disagree with you there. But, as I am not in possession of his mind, I can't definitively say that no part of it thought so. Then again, I'm not really clear on what a fascist-anarcho statement is so perhaps it's all just a semantic boondoggle.

"david" wrote:
I'm putting 2 and 2 together here.

...and coming up with 666.  ::)


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Michael Staley
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26/09/2014 2:46 pm  

"Fascist-anarcho"? Sounds a bit of a spectrum, doesn't it? If I were "fascist-anarcho" I'd expect to be seriously conflicted, or perhaps I'm missing something.


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Anonymous
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27/09/2014 12:23 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"Fascist-anarcho"? Sounds a bit of a spectrum, doesn't it? If I were "fascist-anarcho" I'd expect to be seriously conflicted, or perhaps I'm missing something.

Haha


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Anonymous
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27/09/2014 12:27 pm  

No, Wilson does not dismiss Liber Al as a whole I accept that I made a sweeping statement.  Wilson didn't support what he saw as Crowley's "notorious anti-Christian philosophy - a blend of Nietzschean Supermanism and anarch-fascist Darwinism"

I would say that he was most likely averse to what Regardie called the, "bloodthirsty" aspects of Liber Al.  Maybe this is the wrong place to discuss whether peace-loving people are averse to supporting the passages of Liber Al that appear, on surface to be, "fascist".


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Michael Staley
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27/09/2014 2:27 pm  

In other words, david, you were talking rubbish.


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Michael Staley
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27/09/2014 2:29 pm  

Again.


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Anonymous
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28/09/2014 1:09 am  

Wilson didn't support what he saw as Crowley's "notorious anti-Christian philosophy - a blend of Nietzschean Supermanism and anarch-fascist Darwinism."

I would say that he was most likely averse to what Regardie called the, "bloodthirsty" aspects of Liber Al.  Are peace-loving people averse to supporting the passages of Liber Al that appear, on surface to be, "fascist".

Is that rubbish?  Instead of indulging in blind vindictiveness how about confronting the greater issue here. 


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newneubergOuch2
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28/09/2014 1:31 am  


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lashtal
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28/09/2014 6:11 pm  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:

Says it all, really.

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Tao
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28/09/2014 10:06 pm  
"david" wrote:
Is that rubbish?

Yes.


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Anonymous
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28/09/2014 11:17 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Is that rubbish?

Yes.

Wilson didn't support what he saw as Crowley's "notorious anti-Christian philosophy - a blend of Nietzschean Supermanism and anarch-fascist Darwinism."

I would say that he was most likely averse to what Regardie called the, "bloodthirsty" aspects of Liber Al.  Are peace-loving people averse to supporting the passages of Liber Al that appear, on surface to be, "fascist".

Well he was certainly shocked by Liber Al and perpetually so.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8TZ0hYHiE  24 minutes in.  Are aversion and shock similar?  Shock; something that jars the mind or emotions as if with a violent unexpected blow.


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lashtal
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28/09/2014 11:35 pm  
"david" wrote:
Well he was certainly shocked by Liber Al and perpetually so.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8TZ0hYHiE  24 minutes in.  Are aversion and shock compatible? 

Content deleted in light of Tao's correction below.

This subject is now closed and further posts by you on it will be deleted.

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Tao
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29/09/2014 8:06 am  

I hate to have to post a correction here but, well... At 23:47 RAW actually says that The Book of Lies is one of his favorite books, not The Book of the Law. He does, immediately after that, say that it (Legis) provides shocks to the reader, but anyone with any understanding of RAW knows that he considers shocks to the system to be the best thing possible.

For RAW's actual, nuanced read of Liber Legis (which suggests why others might dismiss the book but hints at RAW's own predilection for the Sirian origin hypothesis - hardly a dismissal) see: 16:20-23:05.


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