Which book is this? If it was mentioned previously, my apologies and gratitude for any clarification.
Placing the query "Diaries Leah Hirsig" into a Borg-retriever yielded numerous results. Apparently, different folks have been publishing these diaries, in different formats, all over the back yard of the www.\
Precisely addressing your question, go here ... ($9 - 200 pages) ...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B86VPZD5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The free pdf (a different deal - 20 pages) was linked early in this thread, related to proximal authority and charismatic authority - is hard to find. I downloaded it yesterday, but cannot find it today (on the www). But it was not a hallucination, it is on my desktop, and here is the doc itself ...
Unfortunately, earlier on I had typed a lot more up to this point, being replies to bits of Shiva and Mick Staley's posts, but I must have brushed up against the keyboard in a manner it didn't like so that somehow it all vanished permanently into wherever it is this stuff goes to, and I am definitely not feeling in the mood to do it all over again & certainly not tonight.
But catching up where I left off ---
Perdurabo merely translated a text from his prior incarnation to complete this requirement
@kidneyhawk : which is-IMO-kind of cheating.
Kind of? Not much doubt about it, another sterling example of the credo he often abided by --- 'Do what I say, not as I do': one law for him and another one for everybody else! We all have to find our own way of hacking through the undergrowth of trash, and winnowing out the wheat from the chaff; he at least said that. As with the Book of the Law, too!
Crowley expresses this in the Book of Lies with "Pilgrim Talk" wherein
But the bastard rascally guru was lying there! He spake with forked tongue!
(= He was a lyin', cheatin', good for no thin' so-and-so.)
Achad did publish Q.B.L. The Bride's Reception in 1922 and then the Egyptian Revival in 1923....Whether they are worthy for 7=4 is open to question
The one which reversed the attributions of the paths on the ToL might be more appropriate as (agree with it or not) it fits in better with the stipulation that it should contain one's own view on the particular way the universe is structured, etc.
There was a very good thread a few years back which discussed the potential of 30+ various artistic and scientific works to be regarded as 7=4 pieces of work (or "Exempt Adept theses", as I think the topic was called.) I remember it contained some quite interesting tables which were affected for the worse by subsequent formatting updates, and thinking it could benefit from somebody working on them again. (I'd do it myself, but don't have the tech. True!)
N Joy
Just back from 2 weeks of holidays with my daughter and wow! I have missed a rare outburst of Lashtal traffic. So, before I can digest all of that, just a happy welcome back )and heartfelt condolensces) to Jamie! "Ol' buddy!?!" (Kyle's AI theory about Well sounds intriguing)
Just back from 2 weeks of holidays with my daughter and wow! I have missed a rare outburst of Lashtal traffic.
Welcome back, then, "my boy." Welcome, "young man." By welcome, I extend a customary greeting used for communicating friendly invitation to continuing dialogue and not at all "kicking shit" which implies neutralizing oppositional people or elements in one's life in a vigorous or aggressive fashion.
(and yes, it hurts to write lines like that)
Kyle's AI theory about Well sounds intriguing
I'm also still waiting on Wellread's "new thread" re: the issues with the Book of the Law. It was extraordinarily odd that he (or his AI) wrote that he was promising this to give Jamie something to look forward to. What I found of interest was the idea of "his (Crowley's) incompetent authorship" of Liber AL. Answering one of my own comments, Wellread said this "incompetent authorship" did not pertain to the grammar of the book. He seems to have it in for AC as being ignorant of real Egyptology but I think this cannot really imply "incompetent authorship."
Let's say I have a very poor grasp of Greek Mythology. I write about how Perseus fought the Minotaur to win the hand of Hera but was slain by Eris and Ariadne at the behest of Hades. That might show that I lack some knowledge but it doesn't, of necessity, imply incompetent authorship. What if my writing is striking, powerful, poetic with deep insights into psychology etc. I may be "off base" with regards to the historical record but still be a great poet, writer...or even Prophet.
Wellread seems to be bending toward the RTC view, which is that Crowley was/is the Author and his "project" is now thrown into question by its own internal problems.
None of this conjecture is new to Lashtal but it is of perennial interest and the sparks which get thrown up in such dialogues and debates may contain gems of wisdom alongside ad hominem attacks.
Placing the query "Diaries Leah Hirsig" into a Borg-retriever yielded numerous results. Apparently, different folks have been publishing these diaries, in different formats, all over the back yard of the www
Thank you! May I ask: is your hard copy book all transcribed text? My files have a LOT in Leah's own handwriting, typewritten manuscript material etc.
another sterling example of the credo he often abided by --- 'Do what I say, not as I do': one law for him and another one for everybody else!
Yes, I often wondered just how much of the curriculum he actually completed himself. We're all familiar with the pic of Victor N's forearms putting every emo teen to shame. Achad details his own days with the razor in MOTT but I do not recall Crowley ever documenting this for himself. Did I miss something in the Confessions or elsewhere?
somehow it all vanished permanently into wherever it is this stuff goes to
Um ... this has happened thrice to me in the past two weeks. I have been unable to determine which keystroke(s) are in action when it happens, but it does seem to happen with a keystroke.
'Do what I say, not as I do': one law for him and another one for everybody else! We all have to find our own way of hacking through ...
Yes. WellRead intends to lead us through, in the future. After one gets over the initial, hero-worship phase, and discovers that there really is a schizoid presentation. There really is a Frater Perdurabo and an Imp Crowley. He asks, "Who can tell the difference?" Why. most of the posters here, as we discuss this a lot.
Thank you! May I ask: is your hard copy book all transcribed text?
It has not arrived yet. The marketing description used the term, "reset type." I assumed this meant it was typeset previously, and now again.
I have been unable to determine which keystroke(s) are in action when it happens
This is a curious situation, as usually confirmation has to be made at least once (often twice) that one is sure an item is not intended to be saved, but deleted - not, instead, to have all signs of it disappear altogether at (with) a stroke. But I do remember that this used to happen often enough for me to now resume the old habit of either doing a rough version first in Word and then copying and pasting, or else doing it in reverse and regularly making a back up there every 5-10 minutes (and would recommend others to do the same if they don't wish the same fate to befall them sometime).
On the strength of it therefore being hopefully the last time I will be needing to do so, I've spent most of the last hour trying to reconstitute what I originally wrote down yesterday, but as usual with this sort of thing it always seems that the first version was better and the second a poor imitation. However I offer it up as near as I can FWIW:
Crowley was ambiguous about the "loophole" allowing people to claim the Magister Templi grade without having done the intervening work.
Is anyone aware at all of where, when (and possibly why) this loophole originated? I cannot recall it being part of the H.O.G.D. M.O., so it otherwise must have been conceived of as a refinement with A.C.'s own AA system of advancement.
It seems curious to have come up with the idea of such a loophole in the first place, knowing that some people would make use of it with dubious intent (unless that was a red herring all somehow part of the setup.) And there are all sorts of karmic considerations involved as well - for instance, it's one thing to try to "claim" the grade in silence (or known only to one's immediate superior within the Order). It's quite something else to broadcast it so that it becomes a matter of publick attention: that would be all very well - and indeed essential - at 9=2, but hard to see any particular benefit to be gained at any level apart from self-aggrandisement in terms of broadcasting it for 8=3. Rather along the lines of the ultimate, long-term benefits to accrue from sticking your hand up to being King for a Day?
I'd also be interested in knowing whether Achad was the first person to ever do this jump up? And were there any others during Crowley's lifetime? My own suspicions are that the answers to these are: he was, and no.
It should be noted that the grading system that includes 8=3 is essentially a male presentation of the path.
However Binah itself has generally more female characteristics than male, from Mara the Great Sea to Sophia and beyond.
After all, the male aspirant must start beginning receptivity in order to later qualify as "the members of A.'.A.'. are women." Transgenderism
Yes, you're referring here to letting the anima manifest more, I presume.
if it [the word 'perfect'] can be found and used as evidence against me, I will defer to the 51% rule that governs all esoteric examinations that I have ever been involved in (as examiner or examinee). That is, "control" of anything is demonstrated by holding or demonstrating 51% of the requirement.
In that case, it's no wonder exam standards have been said to have been slipping everywhere in recent times! A reasonable 51% is nothing to write home about, barely scraping a pass through with a C grade, even, I would suggest...
Nobody has perfect control of anything in this imperfect world; it implies a state of total at-oneness with one's environment such that there cannot be any times when there is failure, like the candidate spinning a coin a hundred times and being able to get it to land on heads a hundred times. Perfection means there cannot ever be an occasion when control isn't exercised, including under conditions of (psychosomatic) dis-ease and illness.
Clearly A.C. should obviously have put down something in his instructions along the lines of that the candidate 'must demonstrate a reasonable control of the astral body' instead of demanding the impossible (perfection).
Did she demonstrate control of her outer vehicle complex
By this you mean a reasonable control here, of course?
I think the 4 real initiations are the 4-step program outlined in AL
As 4 into 3 won't go, please could you explain how you think this matches up with
?the new three-grade system, which is the only thing I use in daily life
leader of a school of thought ... usually required to be "original" or "new" thought ... remembering that it only takes one follower to be a leader ... ?
Where is this condition actually relayed? I'm not familiar with it; it's not in with the rest of the 7=4 considerations. And what would happen to the situation if this solitary follower then chose to withdraw their support?
I think we won't find A.'.A.'. certificates in her assets, but it's pretty hard to judge if she passed the inner initiations.
Like what Gerald Suster recalled Regardie dismissing as "charters schmarters", these would be of limited value in any case and might only suggest imprimartyrdom, as you suggested earlier. And all the more so the higher up into the Inner order she might have gone i.e. advanced Adepthood status.
the vehicle is not the Master, unless they happen to coincide, and this was made perfectly clear with the self-asked question, But which is Frater Perdurabo, and which is the Imp Crowley?
As A.C. wrote this in 1913 this would have been before his complete achievement of M.T. and Mage, so if written afterwards he could also have included
"And which the Master Therion, and which the Five Vees... ?
He seems to have attributed names/ mottoes of some sort to every level/ sephira on the Tree. Although I'm not sure if "imp" would relate to Malkuth or the Qlippoth (although probably the latter if Perdurabo was at the neophyte level)?
N Joy
Lutz --- thanks very much for the wishing well you gave me!
Further to my comment about the second copy generally being an inferior version of the original, as if to prove this I seem to have omitted to add the following
In this case, one is either able to project and return, with data that is reasonably accurate [my underlining], or flunk the test.
to the end of my quoting from Shiva, which would have made the comments regarding "reasonableness" such as below a bit harder to follow:
A reasonable 51% is nothing to write home about [and]
Clearly A.C. should obviously have put down something in his instructions along the lines of that the candidate 'must demonstrate a reasonable control of the astral body' instead of demanding the impossible (perfection).
Incidentally, regarding my comment earlier about there being
a very good thread a few years back which discussed the potential of 30+ various artistic and scientific works to be regarded as 7=4 pieces of work (or "Exempt Adept theses", as I think the topic was called.) I remember it contained some quite interesting tables which were affected for the worse by subsequent formatting updates,
There aren't so many "tables" as I thought, and the formatting issue is one which seems to have affected every thread from those times. However, the topic, which was called "Exempt Adept Thesis", can presently be found on page 12 on the Magick board. I do not have the technical knowledge to make a direct link, however the meat about the 30 candidates' possible entries can be found on page 2 if you're sufficiently interested.
We're all familiar with the pic of Victor N's forearms putting every emo teen to shame. Achad details his own days with the razor in MOTT but I do not recall Crowley ever documenting this for himself. Did I miss something in the Confessions or elsewhere?
it wasn't a Golden Dawn practice, but something A.C. came up with after encountering Eckenstein and utilising some of his mind-concentration methods, later written down in Jugorum and the like. He may have kept a daily score in his magical record of the time, but it'd be unlikely you would have "missed" it in there, as the Caliphornian OTO are still dragging their feet about bringing out his Collected Diaries for that early period, promised for well over a decade now.
Patience-testedly yours,
N Joy
Is anyone aware at all of where, when (and possibly why) this loophole originated?
Asking "why" is a Sin or a jump into that Pit called Because, The earliest reference to jump-claiming that I ever saw was in One Star. It is my belief that this potential way to get out is rooted in the Avatar concept (which is not elaborated upon by AC) brought to us out of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization.
Knocking off the moss and the glitter, an Avatar is born fully awake (in a spiritual sense), and when his or her body catches up, usually at age 13, they pick up and walk the Path (their Path) and then appear fully manifested to the people. Such an entity needs no grades, although all the tales I have read indicate some sort of training, as they simply say, "I am here now." Has this phenomenon been abused by imposters. Oh, yeah.
However Binah itself has generally more female characteristics than male, from Mara the Great Sea to Sophia and beyond.
I thought I cited the idea that the "male" approach involves going receptive at Tiphareth (in order to catch the song of the HGA), and by the time Binah is reached, he has become "fully receptive and may be referred to as a "woman," which he was in Liber 333.
A reasonable 51% is nothing to write home about, barely scraping a pass through with a C grade, even, I would suggest...
Every exam I have studied for in The official Hall of Mammon, and passed, or written said exam(s), or supervised the same, and I am referring to official State or National gov licensing bodies, offer a standard passing rate of ... 70%
The 51% rule applies to metaphysical control. Either you can do it (51% or better) or you crash (anything below 50%. There is a semi-elaborate explanation of how this works, given to us by Koichi Tohei, that I have posted here and in two (or 3) books, but it's off-topic, so ...
As 4 into 3 won't go, please could you explain how you think this matches up with
See AL, where it starts with "Let him come through the first ordeal ..." There are 3 grades, but 4 ordeals. I have covered this in Appendix IV. I see it is still available for complimentary download ...
Is anyone aware at all of where, when (and possibly why) this loophole originated? I cannot recall it being part of the H.O.G.D. M.O., so it otherwise must have been conceived of as a refinement with A.C.'s own AA system of advancement.
The first I ever encountered this idea was within my introduction to the system-structure Itself. I read One Star in college-and was struck by it all. But there was this line:
"It should be stated that these Grades are not necessarily attained fully, and in strict consecution, or manifested wholly on all planes. The subject is very difficult, and entirely beyond the limits of this small treatise."
It seems curious to have come up with the idea of such a loophole in the first place, knowing that some people would make use of it with dubious intent (unless that was a red herring all somehow part of the setup.)
I will say that I don't think this was intended to be a "loophole." In my view, this was an example of Crowley's profound insight. Note that he speaks of the "Grades" (plural) and not just the movement to jump the Abyss.
I think this may be understood by comparing the "Mandala" of the Zodiac with the way individual horoscopes play out. The former expresses a complete and harmonious vision of the cosmos-and the latter expresses how "we" as individuals (a collection of Planetary Skandhas) relate to it in our unique and "partial" fashion, which we, as "individuals," cannot help but do.
As for the "right" for anyone to make that "leap," I think Crowley DID have some good guidance for Achad. This was for him to go back and work his way through the Grades he "skipped." I don't say that because I hold AC's view that Achad had gone off his rocker. Rather it comes from my own experience in Freemasonry. I worked with great intensity to become a Master Mason, to receive the Lost Word, to enter into the Mystery. But having done so, my Initiations would continue as I became an Officer in my Lodge and worked down into the Degrees, helped to Initiate others, returning time and again into what was given to me.
One might write a book:
"You're a Master of the Temple! So now what?"
What does a Master or Magus or Ip DO??? I mean, it must be impressive to be this or that. At least in certain very small circles where numbers after one's Magical Name command respect. But in real life, in real time, against the trials and opportunities of Spacetime...what are we going to do before we die?
And, of course, there's always that "Do What Thou Wilt" thing. It will produce a "thesis." But I think AC was limited in his understanding of this, just as I think he was limited in his understanding of a "Magus uttering a Word." A thesis can be a film. It can also be a filmography. One could say Picasso's "thesis" was Guernica. But it's really everything that Picasso painted and drew and sculpted. THAT was the "thesis."
Likewise, a "Word" is too..."restricted." Magi utter WORDS. It's part of their gig.
When I was young and had just discovered Jim Morrison, I bought one of his books of poetry.
In that book were lines that convinced me that Jim Morrison was no great poet:
Words be quick
Words resemble walking sticks
Plant them they will grow
Watch them waver so
Better than a bird man
"Liber Al became the foundational document of Crowley’s religion Thelema[...]. The book is divided into three chapters, attributed, respectively, to the goddess Nuit; the god Hadit; and the god Ra-Hoor-Khuit. It heralds two additional characters, inspired by Revelation: the ‘prince-priest the Beast’ (i.e., Crowley) as prophet of the new aeon; and the ‘Scarlet Woman’, in whom ‘is all power given. [...] , this title in Liber Al signifies the Beast’s feminine counterpart, charged with aiding him in realising the new aeon. [...] On the basis of Liber Al, Crowley claimed a form of charismatic authority as the prophet of Thelema, while his interpretation of the Scarlet Woman’s role changed over time. [...]
... by August of 1927, Leah’s faith in Crowley was faltering, and she asked him for evidence of his prophet status and for the divine origin of Liber AL [= Aleister Crowley's The Book of the Law]. Crowley responded that she had violated the Tunis Comment, and was cut off from all communication until she reaffirmed her loyalty to him, circulating this message among the other Thelemites. [...] This exemplifies how the Tunis Comment could be invoked to reinforce Crowley’s charismatic monopoly." [...] Crowley’s effective excommunication of Leah after she questioned his charismatic claim in 1927 was not challenged. Rather than weaken his status, Leah’s denouncement of Crowley was seemingly accepted as evidence of her own unworthiness."
( Source [this academic aricle that is avaiable for free online:]
Proximal Authority [-] The Changing Role of Leah Hirsig in Aleister Crowley’s Thelema, 1919–1930[.] In: Aries Author: Manon Hedenborg White[.] Online Publication Date: 14 Dec 2020 [...] Acknowledgments This article has been funded by Vetenskapsrådet (Swedish Research Council), as part of the project ‘Power through Closeness? Female Authority and Agency in a Male-Led New Religion’ (reg. nr. 2018–00439). - - - https://brill.com/view/journals/arie/21/1/article-p69_4.xml?language=en )
Aleisterion, on page page 3 of this thread you state that the content of Lea Hirsig's diaries demonstrates "her intelligence, optimism, and positivity!", and "a lot of brilliant ideas to counter his [= Aleister Crowley's] mistakes, too. For instance, she criticizes his religious tendencies, saying that it's wrong of him to always fall back on "the gods", e.g. saying "It is the will of the gods": but her perspective was, there are no gods, for we, the Thelemites, are the gods!"
Leah Hirsig's perspective that "there are no gods for we, the Thelemites, are the gods!", rejects Aleister Crowley's claim that his The Book of The Law aka Liber AL, was dictated to him, by a voice representing respectively the gods or deities Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
Is it not the case that Aleister Crowley based his authority as the prophet of his Thelema, on his above just mentioned claim that his The Book of The Law aka Liber AL, was dictated to him, by a voice representing respectively the deities or gods Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit?
"You're a Master of the Temple! So now what?"
I will pretend that I am he ...
"So, nothing. My task is to understand the universe, which is accomplished through gnosis, the consciousness part of the universal mind that functions in samadhi. My task has nothing to do with running my mouth or cranking out documents like V5, who confessed to the Exempt Adepts that he was at least a Magister ... but we know, as AC told us, that V5 was The Light of the World, whose job was to make statents, issue manuscripts, and reveal the mysteries that all revolve around sex.
Neti-neti, none of that. My word is Silence."
What does a Master or Magus or Ip DO??? I mean, it must be impressive to be this or that.
The three supernal grades are not things, forms, colors, or ideas. They are states. HPB and Alice Bailey went to great length to point this out. Perdurabo did not. He had visions of Lingams and Yonis, and then wrote books and set out a paradigm about it. But he also wrote about Silence, often using it as the end goal of an aethyr or a chapter
These three states may be seen as the three gunas of the universal mind, just as the inner order offers a three-guna tour of the "soul" or higher mind ... while one investigates and "balances" their karma, while the outer order (starting at Yesod) offers a three-guna tour of the aspects or the lower vehicle ... while one learns to control that unruly beast.
So if one can get into one of those upper states, and most posters here have, they don't really do anything - the experience registers on the mind (Ches, Geb, or Tiph) and then the vehicle does something ... like write, type, paint, start a war, establish a prototype society, etc.
I say most here as we can count states entered through meditation or medication, maybe some unusual circumstances, like near-death, or falling out of an aero-plane. If anybody enters, or is tricked into, one of these upper states, and the experience registers on their mind, they are hooked for life. But can they regain the trance? That is the motivation that propels them up the path.
When the vehicle, theoretically a 7=4, but really anybody, can enter the Tamas phase of the universal mind at will, more or less, they might be called A Master of samadhi.
In addition to doing things (books, paradigms, canvases), a Magister, or an even higher holy person, can also do nothing. That is, they just sit there and people who are gathered near begin to get into the state that the holistic vehicle is radiating.
If you catch it on the wind, it is called s direct transmission. If you catch it through viewing symbols, it is a symbolic transmission. And if you get off, or out, by listening to said wholistic entity, or by reading his or her books, it's an oral transmissions.
The higher states don't do anything by themselves. After all, they are understanding, wisdom, and [insert your favorite quality of Hadit]. They are high and rarefied aspects of a human unit. They cause the unit to do things, or to refrain in wonder or awe.
So ... did Leah have access to this, without drugs ? Not 24/7, but at least occasionally, or on-demand a good portion of the time ?
THAT was the "thesis."
Military or political genius can be demonstrated in war or elections. Sometimes a person writes a book, sometimes not ... they still get to be president or general (if their thesis was simply practical). So much for the first ray.
By the time we claim-jump and get to the 5th ray (science), I'm sure Oppenheimer wrote out some notes.
Depends on the ray. Thelema, OTO, Masonry, G.D. are all 7th ray. So there's these arcane rules. But then the 7th is also film-making, architecture (masons), and music (composition). It's not too hard to spot the syle of the thesis in these categories.
---
Backtracking To AC and Levi. Yeah, the "Pull Eliphas out of the hat" trick was cavalier. But I have always forgiven him, because he gave us a real thesis. You've read it ...
Book 4
But maybe, like Frank Bennett, I would have ended my own diary with the observation that there is something that AC just hasn't grasped, something he hasn't gotten right.
Heavy words in a Thelemic Sanctuary ... so to speak.
The answer my friend
is blowin' at the end
of the Great Equinox
and the beginning of Justice
... not War
The source escapes my memory, but I remember, AC once said that he would give up all of his magical power if he could destroy the Catholic church.
The source does not escape me, and Jack Parsons assumed 8=3 and called upon "All Thelemites to join me in a holy war upon the Roman Catholic church."
Heavy ambitions for holy men.
Leah Hirsig's perspective that "there are no gods for we, the Thelemites, are the gods!", rejects Aleister Crowley's claim that his The Book of The Law aka Liber AL, was dictated to him, by a voice representing respectively the gods or deities Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
No it doesn't. What makes you think that Leah Hirsig was talking specifically about Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit? Because all I see in the paragraph is her talking generally about "the gods".
Depends on the ray. Thelema, OTO, Masonry, G.D. are all 7th ray. So there's these arcane rules.
I cannot comment about the issue of what is considered 7th ray or not, but I think that Thelema transcends arcane rules, which is not to say that arcanities did not quickly flourish...
Leah Hirsig's perspective that "there are no gods for we, the Thelemites, are the gods!", rejects Aleister Crowley's claim that his The Book of The Law aka Liber AL, was dictated to him, by a voice representing respectively the gods or deities Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
There is no logic in this. His claim was that Aiwass dictated it to him. He wrote only down what he heard. If the person/entity dictating to him was lying or making things up can hardly be proven or disproven by Leah's "there are no gods". Try harder.
Is it not the case that Aleister Crowley based his authority as the prophet of his Thelema, on his above just mentioned claim that his The Book of The Law aka Liber AL, was dictated to him, by a voice representing respectively the deities or gods Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit?
So? Again not very logical. You assume that Leah's statement is one of truth. But this has nothing to do with disproving any form of dictation. You have to try harder. And maybe do not read everything literally.
"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Psalms 82,6+7)
I'd also be interested in knowing whether Achad was the first person to ever do this jump up? And were there any others during Crowley's lifetime? My own suspicions are that the answers to these are: he was, and no
Actually it now occurs to me that there may have been at least 2 or 3 others:
Karl Germer. I believe Crowley referred to him as 8=3 despite not ever having done (hardly) any of the intervening work. But he always did seem to have a funny peculiar & highly irregular relationship with him so far as (earned) seniority in either of his 2 orders was concerned.
Jack Parsons. I am fairly confident he also claimed this but am not sure when (i.e. whether it was after A.C. died, or before, around the time he would have met Hubbard etc.)
Oscar Eckenstein. A.C. did refer to him as the 'reigning' Ipsissimus (which he would have been until he died whilst he was at Cefalu, thus presumably leaving the post vacant). However he certainly wouldn't have done the formal AA work beforehand (although as the source/ inspiration behind much of the actual material himself unlike the other jump candidates he probably WOULD have done much of the preparatory work).
It was extraordinarily odd that he (or his AI) wrote that he was promising this to give Jamie something to look forward to.
Yes, bafflingly so! He is yet to answer, as with the identity of B. At the moment it sounds more like having to do homework!
I will say that I don't think this was intended to be a "loophole." In my view, this was an example of Crowley's profound insight. Note that he speaks of the "Grades" (plural) and not just the movement to jump the Abyss.
But by A.C. writing
these Grades are not necessarily attained fully, and in strict consecution, or manifested wholly on all planes.
isn't he still stating the Grades would still need to be taken (dealt with) one at a time, not all together?
But in real life, in real time, against the trials and opportunities of Spacetime...what are we going to do before we die?
As it stands, this is a cause of much unnecessary grievance and upset among the general population/ folk folly as it is "impossible" for everyone to be rich, famous, and respected for their achievements (even for the obligatory 15 mins). Going by previous history in 10,000 years time no one will remember anyone's name anyway with fame having a finite time limiting any posterity. Far better everybody accept that they may not ever have sublime lives and as great wo/men leave departing footprints as a marker behind them in the sands of time, but just be content to "be", ideally and if possible in an attitude of za-zen/ wu-wei.
A thesis can be a film. It can also be a filmography. One could say Picasso's "thesis" was Guernica. But it's really everything that Picasso painted and drew and sculpted. THAT was the "thesis."
Yes, these issues were all gone into in the Exempt Adept Thesis thread mentioned. However I think it is better with more ease of convenience to have one work maybe conveying the essence of somebody's thought and/or message there rather than their entire lifetime's oeuvre.
But I think AC was limited in his understanding of this, just as I think he was limited in his understanding of a "Magus uttering a Word."
It was more of a formula than a word, although it was usually (see Heart of the Master) restricted down to being one word
Likewise, a "Word" is too..."restricted." Magi utter WORDS. It's part of their gig.
Isn't it funny that Crowley declares the Word of Sin to be Restriction and then wants every Magus after him to conform their own "Word" to his?
But just because one word was used previously, I'm not sure there was an interdiction on more being used in the future? A single one was just convenient in its brevity, and summarising as 'shorthand' everything involved in a longer idea. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
Words dissemble
Words be quick
Words resemble walking sticks [...]This, to me, sounded like sing-song baby talk for the dark poet of sex and death.
It reads suspiciously in parts like plagiarism/ a pastiche on the part of the "Lizard King" of the old nursery rhyme which goes "Jack be nimble, Jack be quick/ Jack jump over the candlestick"
But maybe, like Frank Bennett, I would have ended my own diary with the observation that there is something that AC just hasn't grasped, something he hasn't gotten right.
Without reading the exact verbatim observation through again myself, like A.C. it suggests Frank ended up clearly perplexed about the whole situation too..
Is it not the case that Aleister Crowley based his authority as the prophet of his Thelema, on his above just mentioned claim that
Have you switched back to librarian mode again, well?
As dinner beckons, more later
N Joy
but I think that Thelema transcends arcane rules, which is not to say that arcanities did not quickly flourish...
Yes, here's the deal: All the rays, all the houses of the zodiac, all the hexagrams, everything, is transcended by entering mediation (dhyana/samadhi). When there's no difference between things, all the concepts and divisions disappear. Thelema is Will (first ray). It is Love under Will (2nd). It is clever (3rd). Etc. It is primarily 7th in its outer expression as it presents a paradigm that unfolds through Masonic (Egyptian freemasonry in particular - who9 cares about Hiram?) ceremonies. To be clearer, the name of the 7th is ... The Ray of Ceremonial Order and Magic.
Holy bovine! I know that many posters here are unacquainted with the rays, auras, the idea that there are several 9=2s in incarnation at any given moment, and even seven Ips, with the real boss being found at Ain Soph Aur. This is all that yin crap from the Theosophists, with input from The Galactic Federation. Non of this is Crowley-based, so it's like reading Chinese, or at least German.
I also know that there are secret chiefs as well as cowans here who look outward , as is required by The Student Reading List (which is fairly-narrow in favor of AC books), as if anybody really reads about all the systems of attainment.
Anybody in any system, who enters wu-wei, has transcended any rules associated with said system. In terms of Thelema, as presented in the One Star and Tong, Inc Manifestos, Thelema is a graded, hierarchical structure that markets the techniques of getting out, but in Malkuthian reality it is a conduit for fecal matter rolling downhill. The Exempt Adept holds supreme authority over the Inner and the Outer, and every member of the order must obey the beast and the scarlet woman ... or else; the OHO has supreme authority to tumble Supreme and Most Holy Kings (divine right to rule implied) into the great below, and to bestow the IX* on anybody he likes.
"Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
Yup. The Eastern brethren tell us that we have two souls (god and beast), and one better know the distinction as this differentiation can appear on official gov medical licensing exams, along with the differentiation of the 9,999 other things.
The Hun, the "official" spirit of the Liver, is the "ancestral" soul, aka the "reincarnating" ego. It survives physical death.
The Po, the "official" spirit of the Lung, is the "animal" soul, aka the "temporal-temporary" personality. It does not survive physical death.
It could be synthesized thus: A little person grows up to assume his or her stature as an immortal god or goddess. That is, they are aware of a continuity of consciousness that transcends the sensory input of their body (the scientists call it "genetic memory"). This is very cool. Not all godheads coincide with the scenario of the Beast and his Red Lady - it doesn't matter - Ye shall be as ye are and not another. Then comes the part where the Po, being temporary, begins to fail. The wise person will attach his or her Shen (consciousness) to the Star of the Hun, and let the lower Po go out as gracefully as possible.
You're not dead!
I have been on leave to gay old Europa.
Just saying hi.
Glad you aren't too high in the sky.
I have a lot of random shit to read, too, myself.
There is a type of "equation" expressed here. It's not about the "lower" being subjugated to the "higher." It's about the Inspiration taking Form-which is another way of saying Do What Thou Wilt.
Lately, since I don't Do the Work daily, but in bits; I , well over the past 2 years or so, feel that even a simple Banishing is not really a banishing. Nothing is subject. In fact, I am on a wavelength with God/everything while I do it.
I do a lot of qi work while even doing something simple and even astrally, as LBRP.
please inquire of Chris, who includes this sort of thing in his hobbies.
Not these days! I am an old hobbit now. No more shooting, skateboarding or heights.
Yawn. and i am only 40.
I prefer to adventure inside.
But I did ride a plane. it was annoying. no fear.
Hi Chris - no not dead yet, and only moderately high in the sky this evening. I wish you Good shitty reading ahead!
Asking "why" is a Sin or a jump into that Pit called Because
Only Restriction of the True Will can be called a sin, "as was mentioned in the Scriptures". Asking Why can drain Power of purpose away and weaken its one-pointedness. However the word is also expressive of the insatiable curiosity without which the human race would not have advanced very much, and it is usually the first question Children ask of adults when asked to conform their behaviour to arbitrary social codes (and to which are usually given the response back, "Because I say so").
Interesting stuff about the connection with
the Avatar concept (which is not elaborated upon by AC)
I thought I cited the idea that the "male" approach involves going receptive at Tiphareth (in order to catch the song of the HGA), and by the time Binah is reached, he has become "fully receptive
I don't recall reading that first bit in this thread, but agree nonetheless. This (and like it the following) is of course not for your benefit but for others reading who may be more newbys and not know it already).
By the time the male reaches Binah however there should have been a decreasing need to be receptive (in the sense of virgin to the Bridegroom) and so the HGA can be - indeed has to be - dispensed with altogether at the lift-off point from Chesed.
... 70% [...] The 51% rule [...] There is a semi-elaborate explanation of how this works, given to us by Koichi Tohei[...] but it's off-topic, so ...
That's unfortunate. I must look into the off topic material at some point. 70% seems a more reasonable pass but still nothing special to write home about to the folks expecting perfection at A***. If the AA is meant to be venerated as a serious order I would have thought a figure of at least in the region of 90% should be aimed at.
I did have some more to say about the discrepancies between 51 and 70% here but even I thought it was getting just too off-topic and dare I admit to it nitpicking to pursue, so it's best I write no further more about it.
There are 3 grades, but 4 ordeals.
Yes, I knew all this stuff already - but like me above I suppose you're spelling it out for the benefit of the newbies!
I have covered this in Appendix IV.
I haven't had a chance to verify the latest Appendix yet (how many are there?!), but will do.
If I had to make a stab at explaining this myself I would assume the lowest Grade would match up with passing the first ordeal, with the Hermit one relating to the last "ultimate sparks of the intimate fire" ordeal. That would leave the Lovers to correspond with the two ordeals left in the middle.
while the outer order (starting at Yesod)
I agree with almost every word you have written but is the reason you wrote this because you consider Malkuth to be a "pendant" or appendage to the third, or second inverted, triad (as some do) ?
When the vehicle, theoretically a 7=4, but really anybody, can enter the Tamas phase of the universal mind at will, more or less, they might be called A Master of samadhi.
Far from "anybody", to do this - stop the mind at will and be a Master of samadhi - sounds rather more in line with the ability of an Ip (than an Imp).
That is, they [a Magister, or an even higher holy person] just sit there and people who are gathered near begin to get into the state that the holistic vehicle is radiating.
Literally like basking in the glow from a hearthearth fire!
The higher states don't do anything by themselves. After all, they are understanding, wisdom, and [insert your favorite quality of Hadit].
A trick question?!/!? There isn't really anything satisfactory in the textbooks... for instance doesn't 777 have something like "The Crown"? But since it equates with the Tao [-Teh] there wouldn't be anything really, would there - it would be "Nameless".
So ... did Leah have access to this, without drugs ? Not 24/7, but at least occasionally, or on-demand a good portion of the time ?
This seems more like a specialist question on the chosen subject for our convalescing resident expert Aleisterion...
Yeah, the "Pull Eliphas out of the hat" trick was cavalier. But I have always forgiven him, because he gave us a real thesis.
Yes, he did produce a few things which might have counted as the real deal instead of translating Levi, if we don't think he really needed to stick to having to do it all at the end of 7=4 as a prerequisite before crossing to Binah (and A.C. did say one could fill in the work later, didn't he? And even if he didn't and in spite of that, he could do what he liked because of the law of 'Do What I Say Not As I Do' and since he started the Order)
Heavy words in a Thelemic Sanctuary ... so to speak.
The answer my friend
is blowin' at the end
And something is happening
and you don't know what it is
Do you Mr Charles Stansfeld Jones?
The source escapes my memory, but I remember, AC once said that he would give up all of his magical power if he could destroy the Catholic church.
It must have been early on (1898-c. 1915) before he became a bit more more Taoist/ laissez-faire in his outlook (1915-47).
I think the following sentiment was in MWT, but didn't he consider Protestantism (and specifically the CofE) to be even more pernicious than the Catholic Church?
Jack Parsons assumed 8=3 and called upon "All Thelemites to join me in a holy war upon the Roman Catholic church."
Heavy ambitions for holy men.
But maybe not too heavy for one of them who considered himself "a hell of a holy guru" spouting rivers of fire and blood and demanding rape and revolution etc (something like that; I paraphrase), and with the other one actively choosing 'Belarion Antichrist' as his magical name
Like Indiana Jones, Choose ye well --- not poorly
M Joy
Shiva: "He is yet to answer, as with the identity of B."
The identity of B is Barter, as in Jamie J Barter.
the_real_simon_iff: "You assume that Leah's statement is one of truth."
No, my point is that when Leah Hirsig challenged him, and asked Aleister Crowley for evidence of his prophet status, and for evidence of the divine or godly [*] origin of his The Book of the Law, the latter used the charismatic authority he claimed to have as prophet of the Thelema mentioned in that book, to excommunicate Leah Hirsig after she in 1927, questioned his charismatic claim.
"[*]... an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore [...] a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God."
Source: Aleister Crowley's book The Equinox of the Gods, a book which Crowley presented as fulfilling an instruction to issue a book to say how his The Book of the Law was obtained, an instructon contained in the third chapter of the latter threefold book.
No, my point is
Will you please begin the promised new thread with a summation of the basic ideas behind your expressed antipathy for the Book of the Law as being of "incompetent authorship" with Crowley knowing nothing substantial about ancient Egypt?
You're not dead!
And neither are YOU! Glad you've jumped into the fray here, Chris!
I don't Do the Work daily, but in bits
What does "Do the Work" mean? If the Work is DWTW, then Following Your Bliss-ala Joseph Campbell-is manifesting your K & C of the HGA.
even a simple Banishing is not really a banishing
I don't regard LBRP as a "banishing." It is-to my thought-a very beautiful balancing act, a centering of one's self in the Magical Universe.
I prefer to adventure inside.
Where else is there? 🙂
It was extraordinarily odd that he (or his AI) wrote that he was promising this to give Jamie something to look forward to.
Yes, bafflingly so! He is yet to answer
I've just tried to move his hand. The topic will certainly be what Shiva calls a "Hot Zone" for a time.
these Grades are not necessarily attained fully, and in strict consecution, or manifested wholly on all planes.
isn't he still stating the Grades would still need to be taken (dealt with) one at a time, not all together?
I don't think he IS. I think he is acknowledging how the Ideal Pattern can/does/and will play out in our Spacetime personas.
One may be working on that curriculum, studying Dracula and the Bhagavad Gita while working on gaining that "control" over the Astral Plane. And it may just so happen that glimpses of "Getting OUT" splice into the scenario.
And how does DWTW play into the pursuit of development along the lines of the A.A.? One may be whisked off into their acting career, software engineering, a torrid romance...and these things may also (supposedly) express the Tiphareth stage of things, which is the Angel.
If one has a good mentor or superior or master or spiritual friend or teacher or whatever we want to call it, that person may have the vision to help guide the student or pilgrim in the best and most helpful way. I think this tends to be encouraging the momentum and flow while helping watch the balance.
As I understand, AC did put his students through the Grades in a linear fashion. His document acknowledges that this may not happen quite like this.
I have a friend who was once a member of certain Crowleyan Groups. He had a physical condition which made it impossible to balance a cup of water on his head for an hour, like Yogi Lon Milo says he did. He told me that the A.A. group connected to his other Crowleyan group (which is called OTO) would not pass him on unless he could do this. So his A.A. career was dead in the water.
I thought this was bullshit.
I work in the field of support for disabled adults living in the community. I remember an old Lashtal post about how one might do a certain ritual if they were in a wheelchair. I've had people ask me about sex magic when certain aspects of THAT work (physically) have been damaged or restricted.
Just because one can't do this or that doesn't mean one can't GET OUT. At a certain point, we see how the curriculum is meant to help us-not hinder us. Qabala is a crazy game. For some, it leads to lunacy. For others, it helps to order the mind and get to the place of...GETTING OUT.
I think because of all these factors, the A.A. operates with an Initiate/Superior dynamic. If we didn't need help, we wouldn't be involved. We'd just read One Star in Sight and jump to the top.
The problem is: other people can be as much of a problem as they can be a help.
Like Indiana Jones, Choose ye well --- not poorly
I love this reference! "The Penitent Man is Humble Before God." That even goes for the view that "There is no God but Man." None of us, in our failing meatsuits, ought parade around like we're the "Cock of the Walk." "Take heed when ye stand-lest ye fall" was repeated to me in a certain Rosicrucian Group I was involved with. True Will is akin to Flow where self-regard dissolves and one is fully in the energy and action of the Going!
Without reading the exact verbatim observation through again myself, like A.C. it suggests Frank ended up clearly perplexed about the whole situation too..
He seemed very sincere in his diary. He felt the call, he showed up, he worked hard. AC wrote Samekh for him. And yet his diary ends with a shift of understanding, stating that AC has not got the right thing.
The source escapes my memory, but I remember, AC once said that he would give up all of his magical power if he could destroy the Catholic church.
The source does not escape me, and Jack Parsons assumed 8=3 and called upon "All Thelemites to join me in a holy war upon the Roman Catholic church."
And then we have Mr. Jones-who, perhaps, embodied the verse calling us to unite by our art-that ALL may disappear.
If I had to make a stab at explaining this myself I would assume the lowest Grade would match up with passing the first ordeal, with the Hermit one relating to the last "ultimate sparks of the intimate fire" ordeal. That would leave the Lovers to correspond with the two ordeals left in the middle.
This is really great.
It brings together the Three and the Four which become the 7 (Rays).
The Lovers are Atu 6 (Tiph-True Will-a Duality of Self and Angel) linking Nuit and Hadit.
It is a simple and yet total Arcana.
In fact, I am on a wavelength with God/everything while I do it.
This appears to be a claim of samadhi, which is appropriate since 8=2 and Leah are currently under scrutiny ... as if that would answer a rather unanswerable question.
you consider Malkuth to be a "pendant" or appendage to the third, or second inverted, triad (as some do) ?
Yes, but not until it was beaten into me. I always considered the lower 4 to be the outer order. But there is this thing about the three triads, so #10 goes downer. It is Downing St, isn't it ?
And as Fr P.'. wrote in 333 - The Battle of the Ants ....
"Alas for Malkuth, where all these are at war
for instance doesn't 777 have something like "The Crown"?
Yes. But the column we are looking for is Magical Powers or States of Being. I'll look it up ...
[break]
The magical power is "Union with God."
The Intelligence is "Admirable or Hidden Intelligence."
This seems more like a specialist question on the chosen subject for our convalescing resident expert Aleisterion...
He has already answered this question. He is fully in favor of granting 8=3++. Doubts have been raised and are under consideration. I merely asked the question to get the thread back to where it was relevant.
What does "Do the Work" mean?
The recently-departed FrogChair Anonymous asked the same question. The work is doing the basic practices. It can certainly be writing, typing, painting, building - if one is "lost" in that kind of thing.
the_real_simon_iff: "If the person/entity dictating [Aleister Crowley's The Book of the Law] to him was lying or making things up can hardly be proven or disproven by Leah's "there are no gods". Try harder."
It is correct that Aleister Crowley's Scarlet Woman Leah Hirsing stating "there are no gods", does not prove or disprove the formers The Book of the Law, as it is not akin to Aleister Crowley's first Scarlet Woman hypothetically stating the same.
And by the way, will you please stop derailing this thread, for example by accusing me of "expressed antipathy for [Aleister Crowley's] the Book of the Law". I think the latter book is a nice little fascinating document, irrespective of aspects like incompetent authorship and profound ignorance. And to state clearly the obvious: Awareness of aspects like incompetent authorship and profound ignorance in a particular document, does not equal antipathy against the selfsame particular document.
Back to the actual topic of this thread:
Manon Hedenborg White's academic article, Proximal Authority The Changing Role of Leah Hirsig in Aleister Crowley’s Thelema, 1919–1930, pertains to "... how relational closeness to a leadership figure can entail considerable yet precarious power."
Within this academic article Manon Hedenborg White states the following:
"Had Crowley died while he and Leah were lovers, Leah may have decided to enact her authority to re-convene the Order of Thelemites. If so, her authority within the movement may have become more stable, though this remains hypothetical."
"Had Crowley died while he and Leah were lovers, Leah may have decided to enact her authority to re-convene the Order of Thelemites. If so, her authority within the movement may have become more stable, though this remains hypothetical."
What is the point of this post? Firstly, Crowley didn't die then. Secondly, if he had, who knows what might have happened?
"... may have decided to enact her authority ..." "...may have become more stable ..." "... this remains hypothetical." Manon is simply speculating, as her caveats make clear.
I think the latter book is a nice little fascinating document, irrespective of aspects like incompetent authorship and profound ignorance. And to state clearly the obvious: Awareness of aspects like incompetent authorship and profound ignorance in a particular document, does not equal antipathy ...
WellRead, young man. The above quote of your issuance of your agenda in repetitive fashion indicates that you are running-on in an off-topic manner ... rather than announcing the opening of your new octagon. Please srop responding to anything and get to work on finishing your new thread. It has been started (in your mind or in your borg), hasn't it? If you continue to run-on like this, just once more, I will be forced (forced, you hear?) to consider if there is or isn't something wrong with you, psychologically-speaking, that is.
"Had Crowley died while he and Leah were lovers, Leah may have decided to enact her authority to re-convene the Order of Thelemites. If so, her authority within the movement may have become more stable, though this remains hypothetical."
This position, stated by author White, is self-admittedly a "what-if" scenario that illustrates the concepts of charismatic and proximal authority and what might have happened. What-if, even What-Iff, in relation to the past, can be revelatory when planning for the future, but is mostly a waste-of-time-distraction
... may have decided to enact her authority ..."
To complete the circle ... May have decided to commit suicide.
The what-ifs are legendary and legionary.
We retain our sanity by sticking to what-dids, rather than what-ifs.
.
BREAKING NEWS - NO FAKING
The text Leah's Diaries previously referenced by me, has arrived.
It is typeset and readable. There are a (very) few pics and an example of a holographic diary page.
If the person/entity dictating to him was lying or making things up can hardly be proven or disproven by Leah's "there are no gods". Try harder.
Similarly although the OTO documents state ‘There is no god but man’ and ‘the highest shrines are empty’ this isn't quite the same thing as saying that the nuteru have no validity.
You have to try harder. And maybe do not read everything literally.
Especially not The Book of the Law! That way disaster and a great miss lie.
the OHO has supreme authority to tumble Supreme and Most Holy Kings (divine right to rule implied) into the great below, and to bestow the IX* on anybody he likes.
It seems anyone (even a lowly Minerval O) can be jumped into being the omnipotent O.H.O.
Is it stated anywhere that the OHO can only ever be a man and not a lady? For a quasi-masonic body, they at least admit both sexes up to the IX*.
And how does DWTW play into the pursuit of development along the lines of the A.A.? One may be whisked off into their acting career, software engineering, a torrid romance...and these things may also (supposedly) express the Tiphareth stage of things, which is the Angel.
I take it these are all to be done at once, not consecutively?
If one has a good mentor or superior or master or spiritual friend or teacher or whatever we want to call it
Er… ger-oo? ('hey man, who you jivin’ with that cozmik debris?')
There’s quite a difference in the amount of pedestalling involved, with all these different terms: in ascending order, there is: friend, mentor, teacher, master, superior.
You may need to put ‘fraternal’ in front of the last one, as the only place where this would be remotely acceptable would be in an AA chain, wouldn’t it? (nb my tone here I hasten to add should not be interpreted as at all hectoring or excited!)
that person may have the vision to help guide the student or pilgrim in the best and most helpful way. I think this tends to be encouraging the momentum and flow while helping watch the balance.
Encouraging the flow in what direction? Wouldn’t 'that person' need to be an 8=3 to be able to tell!? "Best way" in their opinion, that is!
As I understand, AC did put his students through the Grades in a linear fashion. His document acknowledges that this may not happen quite like this.
No, and especially where his direction of Karl Germer is concerned.
... would not pass him on unless he could do this. So his A.A. career was dead in the water.
I thought this was bullshit.
As in, not true or outrageous? I’ have never come across this party piece of parlour trickery as a pass/ fail before, before
... how one might do a certain ritual if they were in a wheelchair. I've had people ask me about sex magic when certain aspects of THAT work (physically) have been damaged or restricted.
You mean, rectum? "Well it certainly didn’t do ‘em much good" (boom, boom! Sorry.)
At a certain point, we see how the curriculum is meant to help us-not hinder us. Qabala is a crazy game.
Crazier still when you realize you have to construct your own rules for it as well - or at least that’s what A.C. instructs us to carry out.
For some, it leads to lunacy. For others, it helps to order the mind and get to the place of...GETTING OUT.
Or at least Keep saying as it states in Genesis: “you got to get in to get out”.
Like the Star in One Star in Sight is internal and not in actual outer space (siriously). Or so we are told by A.C., who wrote it.
I think because of all these factors, the A.A. operates with an Initiate/Superior dynamic.
Yes!
If we didn't need help, we wouldn't be involved. We'd just read One Star in Sight and jump to the top.
How do you mean?
The problem is: other people can be as much of a problem as they can be a help.
Persistently so if you (one) continue to regard them in such fixed terms (when “The problem is you” – J. Lydon)!
True Will is akin to Flow where self-regard dissolves and one is fully in the energy and action of the Going!
Yes that’s true, up to the point where you start thinking about it! {see above pint about FLOW}
[Frank Bennett] seemed very sincere in his diary. He felt the call, he showed up, he worked hard. AC wrote Samekh for him. And yet his diary ends with a shift of understanding, stating that AC has not got the right thing.
Was he able to analyse the feeling more deeply? It may have been accurate but in terms of problem-solving a bit woolly <cerebrally speaking>
And then we have Mr. Jones-who, perhaps, embodied the verse calling us to unite by our art-that ALL may disappear.
He completes the triad by seemingly perversely actually joining the Catholic Church
This is really great.
It brings together the Three and the Four which become the 7 (Rays).
The Lovers are Atu 6
And incidentally Zayin has the value of 7 also.
Thanks for your comp. As you seem interested I’ll give you the deductive explanation behind my reasoning: I took the analogy from the Bell curve diagram in maths where (any bell) the two bits represented at the beginning and the end are always more important/significant and need more attention than the bit shown in the middle. It is almost a universal law – for a more practical consideration, think of aircraft taking off and landing, and cruising along for hours at 30,000 feet and needing less concentrated attention.
No doubt to the delight of the thread topic title sticklers, I now have a direct question about Leah! When she first met A.C. and he said he wanted to paint her and then followed up with "what as", she replied "as a dead soul". (I mean, I wasn't there in person but it's what I've been led along to believe). Now, was she (a) joking (b) being depressed (c) taking the piss (d) just not thinking (e) making some sort of a symbolic reference to Gogol (f) 'none of the above', but something else? And aside from anyone's hypothetical surmising, are definite further details written down anywhere?
Sticking to the subjectly,
N Joy
I take it these are all to be done at once, not consecutively?
From one angle, we DO take "activities" one at a time. If this is the case, we may splice things up into categorized events which get relegated to a linear timeline. However, Crowley's note in One Star acknowledges exception to this, not only in terms of outward events but also inner plane correlatives.
The fragment from my post that you quote alluded to actions which may express True Will in action. These are distinct from the Grades and their de-and pre-scribed activities, also under discussion (and which may also relate to said actions expressing True Will).
In my post, I referenced the hypothetical "torrid romance." That particular example was drawn from my recollection of AC's allusion in MITAP to a woman who would be happier with a lover in an attic than in a luxurious but stagnant relationship. We may know of cases in which the opposite is true. I once knew a woman who bemoaned leaving her loveless relationship for a romantically energizing one because she also left behind the financial security-and it was this that she ultimately valued more.
In MITAP, AC makes the opening "sales pitch" about how getting in touch with your True Will pretty much solves all your problems. How does one do this? With MAGICK! And then comes the Grade Work, meant to get us there.
A lack of connection to True Will may suggest psychological complexes, outside influences, societal pressures, confusion, laziness and so on. Some may cut through this more rapidly and naturally than others in which case, is it still of importance that they master AC's pranayama or demonstrate mastery of the ESP type exercise with Tarot Cards? One might pursue Crowley's magical curriculum at the expense of pursuing piano practice, of composing as Beethoven composed. It is akin to AC describing himself as coming to the crossroads between becoming the world's greatest chess player or the prophet of Thelema.
(According to CF Russell, he still maintained his love for chess at Cefalu where he was caught several times cheating at it...say it isn't so!)
Er… ger-oo?
Only ever referred to as such IF wearing a real poncho-and not one from SEARS.
There’s quite a difference in the amount of pedestalling involved, with all these different terms: in ascending order, there is: friend, mentor, teacher, master, superior.
I was trying to point at a singular idea here but you are correct-the sundry words I used (as if waxing Thesaurusian) are too individually loaded, perhaps, to serve that purpose.
Encouraging the flow in what direction? Wouldn’t 'that person' need to be an 8=3 to be able to tell!? "Best way" in their opinion, that is!
I will point to AC commenting in MOTT that Jones receiving prescribed exercises was not in keeping with the Modus of the A.A.
AC wrote:
"It is presumptuous for a Neophyte to lay down rules; for he cannot possibly know what his Probationer needs, having no record to guide him, the Probationer's task is to explore his own nature, not to follow any prescribed course. A third objection is that by putting the Probationer in Corsets, an entirely flabby person may sneak through his year, and become a Neophyte, to the shame of the Order. But this objection is theoretical, for Initiation is overseen from the Third Order, where no Error may endure."
On one hand, we have that 3rd Order oversight, presumable present in a mystical aspect. But once there IS a record produced, this becomes a basis for whatever guidance follows...and this would be before either party gets an official 8=3.
No, and especially where his direction of Karl Germer is concerned.
I never understood the case of Karl Germer. I read some of AC's diaries which indicated that Germer was in a rage over an XI working with Crowley subsequently white-staining his trousers. But for these "fun times" (and Initiation into bigger numbers), Germer would also confess to knowing nothing about Magick.
You mean, rectum?
Well, as far as Germer was concerned, he had nice trousers...until Crowley wrecked 'em.
Persistently so if you (one) continue to regard them in such fixed terms (when “The problem is you” – J. Lydon)!
I literally found my CD of NMTB in the trunk of my car this afternoon and listened to this very song on my drive home from work. And yes, from a certain perspective point, the problem is always US-as is the solution.
Was he able to analyse the feeling more deeply? It may have been accurate but in terms of problem-solving a bit woolly
NO, he doesn't elaborate more. This is the very last sentence of his Magical Diary. I was always curious as to what, precisely, he meant-or why he wrote that. I'd be interested if any more learned than myself could put that sentence into context from any subsequent writing or info about Mr. Bennett.
He completes the triad by seemingly perversely actually joining the Catholic Church
Perversely to whom? I don't think Achad was trying to be shocking or "Thelemically Transgressive" with his actions. He seems to be as much of a Christian Mystic as he is a Thelemite. This may have seemed "perverse" to Crowley (who named a toad Jesus and tortured it to death) but I think Achad had a very large vision and resonated with many symbolic forms and diverse practices.
From one angle, we DO take "activities" one at a time. If this is the case, we may splice things up into categorized events which get relegated to a linear timeline. However, Crowley's note in One Star acknowledges exception to this, not only in terms of outward events but also inner plane correlatives.
Yes, this is all an interesting area of discussion which could profitably benefit from wider discussion perhaps in another more appropriate thread (if it hasn't already)
The fragment from my post that you quote alluded to actions which may express True Will in action [...] In my post, I referenced the hypothetical "torrid romance." That particular example was drawn from my recollection of AC's allusion in MITAP [etc]
Yes, similar to as in Diary of a Drug Fiend as well
It is akin to AC describing himself as coming to the crossroads between becoming the world's greatest chess player or the prophet of Thelema.
As if he really had a choice!?
(According to CF Russell, he still maintained his love for chess at Cefalu where he was caught several times cheating at it...say it isn't so!)
It seems to have been a lifelong love as well though - after all, he was still playing with McMurtry whilst at Netherwood.
Unsettling that/ if he really needed to cheat here, after all he was a brilliant player/ chess master and had no need to. Rather like Tricky Dicky Nixon not needing to have been involved with all the Watergate brouhaha since he won the 1972 election easily by a mile anyway
Only ever referred to as such IF wearing a real poncho-and not one from SEARS.
Yes but I fear not everyone is going to get these abstruse references to the crux of the biscuit here!
I never understood the case of Karl Germer
A case of 'money exchanged and services rendered', perhaps, if one was to be cynical about the matter?
I read some of AC's diaries which indicated that Germer was in a rage over an XI working with Crowley
State of trousers aside, it was my understanding that Germer was not homosexual at all and apparently expressed his regret to Motta about not having been able to do engage even the once (with him? not sure), so that he could tick it off his list as a magical experience in having successfully confronted and overcome his natural aversion or disinclination.
NMTB (HCTSP)
Extraordinary how the songs on that have not only not dated (except perhaps God Save the Queen), but in most cases have become even more relevant, e.g. in the song mentioned, the lyrics referring to "You won't find me living for the screen", mobile, tv, computer or whatever...
I'd be interested if any more learned than myself could put that sentence into context from any subsequent writing or info about Mr. Bennett.
Yes, me too!
Perversely to whom?
Perversely regarding the other 2 (Crowley & Parsons) as both expressed intentions at one point to destroy the Catholic Church whereas he wanted to join their ranks instead.
He seems to be as much of a Christian Mystic as he is a Thelemite. [...] I think Achad had a very large vision and resonated with many symbolic forms and diverse practices.
Yes, at times, agreed, and Starfire's aesthetically attractive and excellent new compendium about his Ma'at correspondence etc suggests there is much more to it than first appears e.g. with the Universal Brotherhood etc.
I noticed you didn't reply to the query below as to what you meant by it. Incidentally, please also let me know if I neglect to answer anything, or there is anything which further which you may consider needs answering in any of my replies (this applies generally to you & others):
If we didn't need help, we wouldn't be involved. We'd just read One Star in Sight and jump to the top.
You also omitted to mention re the following
He had a physical condition which made it impossible to balance a cup of water on his head for an hour, like Yogi Lon Milo says he did. He told me that the A.A. group connected to his other Crowleyan group (which is called OTO) would not pass him on unless he could do this. So his A.A. career was dead in the water.
I thought this was bullshit.
whether you thought it was "bullshit" in the sense it was outrageous (as in shocking that such a thing could be done) or that you thought the actual story was in some elements untrue. Or possibly both, as well, of course.
Also, Shiva, can I ask again about your suggestion by italicising he that the O.H.O. can only be a male, together with a source? Many thanks!
I also noticed you diidn't answer my query:
Where is this condition [that it only takes one follower to be a leader] actually relayed? I'm not familiar with it; it's not in with the rest of the 7=4 considerations. And what do you think would happen to the situation if this solitary follower then chose to withdraw their support?
Loose ends tying uply yours,
N Joy
the O.H.O. can only be a male
Recall that the OTO constitution says that "the names of women members are never mentioned".
This is because they are mindless sperm-receptacles, whose only role/job is to be sexually available to all the High Holy Kings and initiates.
They are one of the amenities of order membership (geddit?), and as such are no more entitled to vote or rule than other non-sentient amenities like Profess-Houses.
With apols for double-post: i am well aware that the current Caliphornian (c)OTO pays lip service (see what i did there?) to the idea that the OTO is in fact a sort of co-Masonry, with women fully equal members.
The reality is that the only high-ranking females ever to exist in any OTO were inherited by the (c)OTO from the vestiges of the original OTO, and have never been replaced by even one single high-ranking female elevated under the New Regime.
And obviously my answer refers to the (never-realized) AC fantasy version of the OTO promulgated in the Blue Equinox. Because of course there never really were any female public sperm-receptacle members, or any Profess-Houses either for that matter.
The reality is that the only high-ranking females ever to exist in any OTO were inherited by the (c)OTO from the vestiges of the original OTO, and have never been replaced by even one single high-ranking female elevated under the New Regime.
Yes, but you omit there the female IX* which McMurtry created once he was Caliph (I forget their names - they're forgettable enough anyway - but are mentioned somewhere in this forum and at least within my "Secret Rituals of the OTO" chapters here as well). Unlike with the 8=3 though, I'm not sure they can be called "jump initiates" (unless in the "jumping into bed with Grady" sense, that is...)
И ∫ºλ
I noticed you didn't reply to the query below
Apologies for that. It was long post-and mine was a long reply!
If we didn't need help, we wouldn't be involved. We'd just read One Star in Sight and jump to the top.
Some go it (The Initiatory path) alone and some make it alone ("alone" being a relative term-after all, even in the most extreme states of solitude, we are never truly "alone"-and from another viewpoint, there is nothing actually here or happening). However, if one feels a pull toward a deeper dimension of existence but needs a guide through the darkness of the valley, one may and will reach out to such a person or group. One's superior in the A.A. is supposed to function in this fashion.
whether you thought it was "bullshit" in the sense it was outrageous (as in shocking that such a thing could be done) or that you thought the actual story was in some elements untrue. Or possibly both, as well, of course.
Actually, neither was/is the case. Perhaps I didn't communicate clearly. I have no doubt at all that Lon Milo passed the teacup test-and that others have as well. I believe AC wrote in AHA about first taking care of the "fidget babes" who distract and interrupt.
What I was referring to as "bullshit" was the scenario my friend was in: due to a neurological condition which caused small but involuntary movements, he was unable to ever balance a teacup on his head for an hour. As a result, he told me he would never be passed to a higher grade in the A.A.. I thought that was crap and that the system ought to be able to implement the wisdom for handling exceptions to the rule.
But that gets back to Crowley's words about the Grades being attained in part, on different planes, not necessarily in consecutive order etc. I don't think the focus ought so much be "Grade-jumping" as much as getting a picture of what is happening within one's Being-as well as what needs to happen next.
Also, Shiva, can I ask again about your suggestion by italicising he that the O.H.O. can only be a male, together with a source? Many thanks!
I know you asked this of Shiva-and I will also be interested in his reply. I was once told by a former member of this site that the reason is because only males can pass on the Logos. A woman could receive this but could not transmit it herself.
My understanding is that Phyllis Seckler, Helen Parsons Smith, and Mildred Burlingame were the only female IXs ever in OTO/(c)OTO history.
All three were IXs from Agape Lodge, pre-dating Grady's founding of the (c)OTO in 1977 by decades.
If Grady made any female IXs, their names never have been mentioned in any source i know, but perhaps that's just (c)OTO's scrupulous observation of the above-mentioned policy. Why this policy did not/does not apply to Seckler, Parsons Smith and Burlingame is unclear.
only males can pass on the Logos. A woman could receive this but could not transmit it herself.
By "passing on the Logos", we of course mean "ejaculate Sacred Sperm". By "receive the Logos", we mean "have Sacred Sperm ejaculated into her grade-appropriate orifice".
My understanding is that Phyllis Seckler, Helen Parsons Smith, and Mildred Burlingame were the only female IXs ever in OTO/(c)OTO history.
Unless Leah, who I think went along with A.C. to the Conference in Germany to choose a successor following Reuss' death, was one also by then? Perhaps someone else could confirm for sure or not. And what about Laylah (Leila Waddell) of The Book of Lies renown?
All three were IXs from Agape Lodge, pre-dating Grady's founding of the (c)OTO in 1977 by decades.
Correct, as far as I'm aware (though not 100% sure about if/ when/ how Mildred got it)
If Grady made any female IXs, their names never have been mentioned in any source i know
Without wanting to do a 'deep dive', certainly at the moment, I can remember the names of at least two of these who "jumped" with Grady were Andrea Bacuzzi and Kaye D. Lewis (aka Lola deWolfe), and whose details featured in the (c)OTO's The Magical Link...
There may have been one or two others as well, but I cannot recall their names at all at present (Something Shirelle? something Morton? Maybe someone else can assist. I think - but again am not certain - they were all pictured in that "Glee Club" photograph of all the 'high rankers' pardying together taken in the early 80s...)
Up the Sisters!
N Joy
You seem to know more than i here, JB, and happy to be corrected.
Never having heard of any of those women, i can say that none of the female IXs have been among the more visible members of the order, at least in terms of visibility to cowans such as me.
What I was referring to as "bullshit" was the scenario my friend was in: due to a neurological condition which caused small but involuntary movements, he was unable to ever balance a teacup on his head for an hour. As a result, he told me he would never be passed to a higher grade in the A.A.. I thought that was crap and that the system ought to be able to implement the wisdom for handling exceptions to the rule.
First off, my words aren't toward you, Kidneyhawk, but to all in this discussion. Such argumentation on this matter is pointless and settled by Crowley himself, as I brought out on another forum twenty years ago in this very same argument with David R. Jones. In the Confessions (I can find it later but trust me it's there), it's made clear that there are some that may attain the Grades of the Holy Order without ever performing a ritual or doing a single meditation, as they attain by other means and methods. Again, I'm just paraphrasing, but it would take me awhile to find the quote as I don't have access to actual books, only pdfs, and it's easier to find quotes with real books.
Arguing for nothing here, methinks.
I know you asked this of Shiva-and I will also be interested in his reply. I was once told by a former member of this site that the reason is because only males can pass on the Logos. A woman could receive this but could not transmit it herself.
A bit confusing of the Orders. Crowley stated that a woman could not hold the grade of Magus as she did not possess the required physical member (paraphrazed, but extremely accurate in rendition). He meant to say she does not have a dick, and the required energy for causing change to occur, at Chokmah, for the benefit of humanity, needs that explosive lance to pull it off.
9=3 The coded and veiled imagery should be stripped away to say that we are speaking of the entire yang male reproductive apparatus, not just the tip of the berg, along with the corresponding yang psyche. This is apparently true as we find few, if any, female Magi in the history books and PDFs.
IX The obscured and covered description of the IX rite will now be stripped away to say that we are speaking of the specific yang male reproductive protuberance, without regard for the berg, and that a woman cannot receive the IX, as this is impossible, because she has no lance. That is, something is done to said male lance that cannot be done to a yoni.
Frankly, every woman who ever participated with a guy in this IX application (not the Rite of Initiation) knows the "secret" of the IX, unless it was purposely obscured from her perception. Some of these ladies were deemed suitable to be called IXs. So they were admitted to a brief, token, representative Rite, and then handed the Emblems paper, which they copied. You will barely find this hinted at in the history books, and it is not to be found in my PDFs, except veiled, right up front ...
Let's face it. The Tong is a boy's club - it was designed that way, based on a system of Houses of High Repute, where the names of women members are never revealed. Regardless of what it says in the holy official docs, there is NOT going to be a female OHO, any feminine Xs, and the membership in IX is either quiet or restrained.
My understanding is that Phyllis Seckler, Helen Parsons Smith, and Mildred Burlingame were the only female IXs ever in OTO/(c)OTO history. All three were IXs from Agape Lodge, pre-dating Grady's founding of the (c)OTO in 1977 by decades.
Jane Wolfe, Master of Agape Lodge, passed on the IX to Frater Aquarius, so she must have been admitted. It should be noted that a male candidate is always admitted by a female officer. There are no other officers present. The ritual is not of sex. A fem candidate always gets it from a man. So if Grady got it from AC in England, he got handed a paper battlefield promotion, so it is unlikely he qualified as passing the rite, and anything he did with it is subject to confusion or error in his actual understanding.
If Grady made any female IXs, their names never have been mentioned in any source i know
Yes he did. Their names, partially at least, can be found in the official minutes (or corresponding anecdotal exposes) of the Meeting of the IXs to decide who would be next to sit on the box in the east.
The Solar Lodge lineage, although decried as illegal by the current Org head man, included Soror Capricornus, Soror Asi, and (possibly) Soror Sekhmet.
Why this policy did not/does not apply to Seckler, Parsons Smith and Burlingame is unclear.
Any Tong "policy" is subject to instant modification under battlefield conditions, which were always present as The Tong never stabilized at the required "1000 souls" - before The Constitution (a Manifesto of absolute dictatorship) took effect.
Phyllis Heckler saw the Light and pulled out from the Tong stuff (McM included) and turned exclusively to A.'.A.'. - her Ordo is still functioning.
Helen Parsons Smith faded away into obscurity, but she was contacted by Martin P. Starr, who then gained access to a rather large, but unknown cache of Agape Lodge documents and artifacts.
Mildred Burlingame only ever wanted one thing: The resurrection of Agape Lodge. She personally thought McM should be the resurrector ... but Aquarius would simply shake his head (sideways). She had little interest in A.'. A.'. stuff. She fulfilled her mission and the last photo I saw of her was that of a comfortably overweight, grinning cat. This was a contented smile - she was back in the Tong and McM was at the helm. She then moved off to Montana, where she died.
It is not impossible for a lady to run the Tong - she may not have the ooomph to change the collective unconscious. Of the ladies described, we find Seckler taking the helm and standing at the head of her line - she was unable to handle the intricacies of an org, so Richard Alan Miller (the same guy who was the first polymath to take acid under Leary, so Tim could see how it affected Geniuses) to sort it out on paper.
Brayton took the helm and stood at the head of her line - she was unable to handle the intricacies of an org, so I (the same guy who is unloading this Shnola on you) did the admin work.
Such ladies of charismatic authority do not lay down the rules or refer to the regs when sitting on the eastern box. They make decisions by intuition. Seckler appeared to rise up in spiritual statue, while Brayton started to run downhill while instituting the grip of The Black Lodge.
By "passing on the Logos", we of course mean "ejaculate Sacred Sperm".
This would be BafometR's definition, among others. Passing on The Logos is an unfortunate term. The Logas is the knower, the Magus. A IX is merely a reflection of that, down at Geburah. Since it takes a woman to initiate-ignite a Magus, and (in reality) a IX, there is room for further consideration in how the path differs for men and women.
One may peruse the first two AL chapters and note the difference. The systems of the Tong and the Silver Star are designed for the tough guys. The ladies don't see it that way at all, but sometimes they buckle down and do the curriculum ... but in their minds they're just going along.
Sure, any woman can step up to X*, every solo-reliant lady guru does that, and she can become pres or PM of a country. Some make history, many break down and don't run again, but an Outer Headress of the Order ? - that'll be the day the revolution has succeeded.
where the names of women members are never revealed.
At one time, I originally thought this was some sort of an old-fashioned/Aeon chivalric gesture to hide their blushes and sustain a false morality!
Regardless of what it says in the holy official docs, there is NOT going to be a female OHO, any feminine Xs, and the membership in IX is either quiet or restrained.
Hmm! (strokes manly bristles)
passed on the IX to Frater Aquarius
And so it was he (presumably) who then passed it on to Mildred (his wife)? Not into Soror Capricornus?
There is more to all this than meets the eye, it seems... (or if I am somehow over-reading it, the reverse)
So if Grady got it from AC in England, he got handed a paper battlefield promotion, so it is unlikely he qualified as passing the rite, and anything he did with it is subject to confusion or error in his actual understanding.
So presumably anything to do with IX* as far as he was concerned afterwards, was all... er, illegitimate?
(someone raises hand) But doesn't Jerry Cornelius promote the fact/ idea/ idea as fact, that Grady knew tons of oral stuff direct from the horse's (A.C.'s) mouth?
Helen Parsons Smith faded away into obscurity, but she was contacted by Martin P. Starr, who then gained access to a rather large, but unknown cache of Agape Lodge documents and artifacts
Lucky him! Hopefully he will take steps to making sure the most interesting, useful and obscure of these (can't be many left!) are publickly available tor at least to those having a direct interest in them.
the last photo I saw of her was that of a comfortably overweight, grinning cat.
Um, didn't you mean to say "with" there, rather than "that of"?
The Logas is the knower, the Magus. A IX is merely a reflection of that, down at Geburah
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but How so, at Geburah?
The ladies don't see it that way at all, but sometimes they buckle down and do the curriculum ... but in their minds they're just going along.
Perhaps their minds are just chit-chitta-chattering away, bird-like, like the flibbertigibbets they really are underneath?
Sure, any woman can step up to X*, every solo-reliant lady guru does that, and she can become pres or PM of a country.
Sor. Andrea Bacuzzi IX* was head of the Swiss (c)OTO and at one point in the late 80s was being touted as the Supreme Military Commander, I meant to put International Head of the Order, Europe. She never even got made a X* though (for one thing, her sponsor Grady had now died).
Some make history, many break down and don't run again, but an Outer Headress of the Order ? - that'll be the day
(naive voice from the audience:) But what about the line 'let the woman be girt with a sword'? Does this effectively mean absolutely nothing, then?
the revolution has succeeded.
Er... agreed!
(& it will not be telly-vise d)
N Joy
A bit confusing of the Orders. Crowley stated that a woman could not hold the grade of Magus as she did not possess the required physical member (paraphrazed, but extremely accurate in rendition). He meant to say she does not have a dick, and the required energy for causing change to occur, at Chokmah, for the benefit of humanity, needs that explosive lance to pull it off.
Where did Crowley assert this?
A 9=2, or Magus, i.e. Logos, or "Word" of an Aeon, is of course, very, very rare. He or she manifests great spiritual revolutions, and reveals new ways of working towards epiphany and enlightenment.
However, humanity goes back a long, long time. Archaeology recently discovered human footprints going back millions of years, that match ours exactly. Who knows how many civilizations have come and gone? Millions of years is a long time...how many Magi have emerged from the Invisible Order, only to be lost to memory?
I disagree with the idea that gender has anything to do with Supernal Order qualifications, myself. How many women may have there been in great antiquity? There may have been a great many, for all we know.
Such argumentation on this matter is pointless and settled by Crowley himself, as I brought out on another forum twenty years ago in this very same argument with David R. Jones. [...]
Arguing for nothing here, methinks.
(cry from audience: ) "There's a madman around!"
(another voice, similarly alarmed): "Call for Security/ Shiva! And have him evicted!...
Seriously, I hope you have fully recovered from your earlier bout of unwellness, but you seem feisty enough now, giving the call for unity (one-pointed threadedness and Obedience to Non Deviation) and all. I am sure these things aren't a serious diversion from your beloved subject though, and you should instead take heart that Leah is from beyond the grave, managing to successfully manifest and exercise her influence - proof being that this thread is the busiest for some time and certainly of all the Scarlet Women board. If you're now fully restored, I have a question for you (and yes it is on topic - more or less, anyway) but I think I'll leave it for a little while longer just to (ahem) see how things are going, etc...
But incidentally & btw re. your post quoted from above, please could you clarify exactly which "matter" it is are you referring to and what was the "very same argument"?
How is your wife's essay on Leah coming along - are we likely to see it relatively soon, or might it take a bit more time? And is it possible to read little tasters as we go forward, as I'm sure you (both) won't want to read people getting restless and comparing you to @RTC, @wrwb and all the like, etc?
PS --- Kyle, I haven't forgotten you and am thinking your words over & will probably "now" reply back sometime tomorrow (but which never knows ♬, as we k now). Ditto any others where/ if applicable.
With good wishes for good mental health, also if applicable
N Joy
But incidentally & btw re. your post quoted from above, please could you clarify exactly which "matter" it is are you referring to and what was the "very same argument"?
The matter is whether or not "there are some that may attain the Grades of the A.'.A.'. without ever performing a ritual or doing a single meditation, attaining by other means and methods".
Crowley specifically says so in Confessions. Not that we should merely echo his opinions, obviously, but it is a pretty important matter of doctrine.
I do believe - as did Crowley - that anyone, regardless of whether or not they have done the rituals or pass the tests of A.'.A.'., may attain the actual Grades and realize the benefits thereof - using other methods.
Sorry if I was unclear there.
How is your wife's essay on Leah coming along - are we likely to see it relatively soon, or might it take a bit more time? And is it possible to read little tasters as we go forward, as I'm sure you (both) won't want to read people getting restless and comparing you to @RTC, @wrwb and all the like, etc?
My wife, Soror Aliana, is working on it very hard - I've seen it and she is doing an amazing job. By the way, it's our Great Work to do this. You seem to seem to think it's clownish, funny stuff - that's cool. Our heart is in it however: we're not ruthless capitalists just looking for a buck.
Thanks for your good wishes and kind words! I hope that I keep recovering as well as I am, so that I can get back to writing again!
-777
The matter is [...]. Sorry if I was unclear there.
No problem, it was rather what I thought you meant but I just wanted to be clear about it
By the way, it's our Great Work to do this. You seem to seem to think it's clownish, funny stuff - that's cool
I wasn't thinking it was "clownish" at all - the thought never entered my head for a second - where did you get that idea from?! I actually said I would very much like the bit about her 8=3 to be true, am sincerely interested to see what Aliana comes up with, and share Kyle and Lutz's hope/ enthusiasm that it might actively bear fruit. You didn't mention if we would be privileged to get to see little snippets or 'trailers' as we go along. Also, is it known why Leah came up with 'paint me as a dead soul', and was she a IX*?
I don't know why you felt the need to add, "that's cool" - it sounds rather disingenuous, in view of the foregoing! Was it an attempt at "humouring" me? (as you never met me, and am unsure how to take my cybernetic persona, which would be understandable); were you being defensively ironic/sarcastic? (I may have a quirky sense of humour but my heart's in the right place, I think. [Mind you, I expect that's what Hitler or Stalin would have said as well, so that's possibly not the most useful thing to say under the circumstances...] So you will have to decide for yourself [as with everything else] if you think that's true or not); or were you actually being sincere (in which case I don't quite follow your logic there!)
Am I right in thinking that in some ways your one-time idealistic outlook seems to have been crushed a little and that you're maybe a little hyper-sensitive for this world?!
Kyle, I haven't forgotten you and am thinking your words over
Somehow there was less to answer than I thought and I could have done it last night! However be that as it may...
I think because of all these factors, the A.A. operates with an Initiate/Superior dynamic. If we didn't need help, we wouldn't be involved. We'd just read One Star in Sight and jump to the top.
As far as I'm aware you seem to have answered my enquiry: I think I thought the word "help" was more alarmist and - well, not quite life-threatening but of existential concern shall we say: it seemed like it was the only reason for someone to have joined the AA (in this example) rather than their being a genuine seeker after knowledge (i.e. practically speaking, for Da'ath and below in the Tree) etc. It also seemed rather a one-way ("selfish"!) process in that sense (not so much, 'ask what I can do in the AA' as 'what can the AA do for me' sorta thing).
Also, why should anyone jump to the "top" re OSIS - to begin with, one could only bound to Binah, not to Kether, all the way up. And returning back to the earlier theme, why should anyone wish to do that as a plan in advance rather than progressing through it in stages like the way OSIS was designed. I think that was what I was originally looking for in the answer.
[...] even in the most extreme states of solitude, we are never truly "alone" [...]
What was that jokey saying now? Something like, "You're never alone with a schizophrenic"!? Although it might as well have been, "you're never alone if you're a schizophrenic"?!
I have no doubt at all that Lon Milo passed the teacup test-and that others have as well.
Is this actually a formal (order) test though? This was what I meant by thinking it was more like a party piece/ parlour trickery (=magic without the "k")
Actually, neither was/is the case. [...] What I was referring to as "bullshit" was [...]
I thought that was crap and that the system ought to be able to implement the wisdom for handling exceptions to the rule.
Aha! So you did mean BS in the sense of being outrageous then? But this is all a matter of semantics methinks
But that gets back to Crowley's words about the Grades being attained in part, on different planes, not necessarily in consecutive order etc. [...]
Yes it does, doesn't it! Which is a whole other can of worms topic as previously suggested at.
Perhaps their [ladies'] minds are just chit-chitta-chattering away, bird-like, like the flibbertigibbets they really are underneath?
With regard to this I'm reminded of Harry Enfield's piece "Women - Know Your Place" which everybody might find most instructive in this regard:
https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w?si%3D67pJ9w6wE73TfR9F&source=gmail&ust=1694430558132000&usg=AOvVaw2ty36gNQgQfbohyFMzyVR c"> https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w? si=67pJ9w6wE73TfR9F
Hopefully I can link here successfully with my limited tech skills, and that its humour won't get it banned everywhere these days by the Woke police...
N Joy
I do believe - as did Crowley - that anyone, regardless of whether or not they have done the rituals or pass the tests of A.'.A.'., may attain the actual Grades and realize the benefits thereof - using other methods.
And what are the "benefits thereof"...that anyone may attain and not necessarily go through the said curriculum that is said to take one to such said higher grades?
What if Crowley's Rituals and A.'.A.'. training regime actually induces a inferiority complex or some neurosis that some sincere true believers have been hurt by a system that actually cripples actualizing the 'Grades'?
Now another subject:
Regarding Leah Hirsig as Scarlet Woman and this notion that woman do not have power relative various power structures of say the "OTO", I think that there is a certain power that might come from being in relative to creation and possession of Cakes of Light.
Now of course there is a rumor concerning Cakes of Light....that there are some that survive somewhere, perhaps even from the coupling of Alostrael.
Why I was even told that there are descriptions of certain waxen eggs, wrapping the cakes, whose ingredients such as honey and the wine leavings (sherry), served with the Abramelin oil, as natural preservatives.It was also said that the Scarlet Woman was responsible for the fashioning of the eggs, being the possessor of the manna...to which it is said that the eggs would be impregnated with sigils or other means of identifying the working...
Being in possession of the cakes, and to have the knowledge of the arts of further preservations, the beeswax eggs, is a very big position of secret power as might be imagined, especially if certain factors might require hiding such cookies in a manner other than gobbling down with a Crowley ale...or distribution relative to a Mass...Some have said that the magical orders were created such that the order would assume possession of such workings, though such an ideal, has lead to what are called tongs, to which there are other unsaid power struggles, as amongst couples, that possession tends to not find itself with the "Priest" but of the receptive vessel and the natural clutching proclivities therein.
Of course the notion of such tales, of existing cakes of light from To Mega Therion, himself, has let certain imaginations run wild with hopes that some cache might be found.... Of course these rumors and stories are highly anathema to the "Tong", to which will deny such stories, while its agents poke around the world, under scholarly guise, seeking the precious....And now with gene spicing, cloning and the like, the prospects of such a find, say in a cookie tin in Switzerland, is said to be astronomical!
It was speculated that Leah was down and out in Paris, as rumored by some, due to loss of the manna of important rites with To Mega Therion, while others have said that those sordid days were actually a ruse, and that on the lam, the feint was ruin, the temple empty and that the magic of the stars was but a literary trick of glamor riddled with sadistic puzzles used to justify entrapment in a cult and awakening that threatened the world of the gods of men....
Note the gods of woman are not apparently on the chopping block...And may be why the mysteries of the Cakes of Light might be a secret of Leah's at least that may never see the light of day or might literally even...
And what are the "benefits thereof"...that anyone may attain and not necessarily go through the said curriculum that is said to take one to such said higher grades?
Oh, groceries and grief. Perhaps it would help to strip away everything and look at what an 8=3 has attained ... He or she has attained to samadhi, where he or she as a separate individual unit no longer exist. He or she is percepting via gnosis or "direct perception" also known as understanding.
Anybody, anywhere, at any time, may enter this state (and be 8=3 for an hour or a day) as long as the conditions and the alignment are correct (setting and set - but I'm not including meds as they are only previews).
This difficult to get out into state is able to manifest as the individual's linear mind has stopped. Anybody's mind can stop at any time. This is a rather rare occurrence, which is why we don't have more 8=3s running around or sitting still. Yes, AC said anybody could get there without ever hearing of the Silver Star. Other folks, in Tibet, Siberia, and the Ante-Arktik have writted books or scrolls that tell how to do this, without ever mentioning The Great Beast or any Western curriculum.
The A.'.A.'. is a made-up org, the initials borrowed from the Golden Dawn, that, from my limited point of view, offers the most direct curriculum ladder available to Western dialects and lingos. I recommend the Class D Libers as the basis of practice, while viewing everything else with discrimination as to which is Frater Perdurabo and which is Imp Crowley. Who can tell?
What if ...
?
I think that there is a certain power that might come from being in relative to creation and possession of Cakes of Light.
The cakes are a made-up artifacts that do not induce instant illumination. The certain power that is pertinent is that of the female force. And in his woman, the Scarlet Woman, is all power given. Let the woman be girt with a sword. Etc.
Perhaps if katrice return from vacation, she will be able to explain how a woman goes a;pong with the curriculum, performs all the practices, but still retains her own cosmic viewpoint that sometimes puzzles men.
Perhaps if katrice return from vacation, she will be able to explain how a woman goes a;pong with the curriculum, performs all the practices, but still retains her own cosmic viewpoint that sometimes puzzles men.
Well "how a woman goes a:pong with the curriculum" is interesting with a word that almost looked greek at first, but I think that it perhaps explains the whole game, which needs words like a:pong around, to be brought out at innocuous occasion with what might explain what the whole feast is about!
I am starting to believe that Shiva's typos might constitute the seeping through of some sort of channeling, played upon a certain energy bouncing around this sphere, that induces....of course typos can be innocuous, they can be innocent or in bad faith, or they could be a little rapping, that means nothing but to someone who lets the imagination run a bit...
Now as regards Katrice, I hope she is well and as her posts are excellent, she might well answer the question with a question, 'which curriculum?" and with that she might well remain silent if she so chooses
I wasn't thinking it was "clownish" at all - the thought never entered my head for a second - where did you get that idea from?!
It was just in case...
I actually said I would very much like the bit about her 8=3 to be true, am sincerely interested to see what Aliana comes up with, and share Kyle and Lutz's hope/ enthusiasm that it might actively bear fruit. You didn't mention if we would be privileged to get to see little snippets or 'trailers' as we go along.
I have no doubt that she was a 8=3; also, Crowley outright wrote that she was, in his diaries. Just go through the years she was with him, you'll get to it.
Aliana told me that she could release interesting "foreshadowings" of the Leah Hirsig book, if the thread remains open that is.
I don't know why you felt the need to add, "that's cool" - it sounds rather disingenuous, in view of the foregoing! Was it an attempt at "humouring" me? (as you never met me, and am unsure how to take my cybernetic persona, which would be understandable); were you being defensively ironic/sarcastic? (I may have a quirky sense of humour but my heart's in the right place, I think. [Mind you, I expect that's what Hitler or Stalin would have said as well, so that's possibly not the most useful thing to say under the circumstances...] So you will have to decide for yourself [as with everything else] if you think that's true or not); or were you actually being sincere (in which case I don't quite follow your logic there!)
Wow!! that's some scary psychoanalysis there! no, none of that I think. It's just my saying that, if it were your will to be dismissive and derogatory - that's your will. Of course I knew that wasn't your will, but as usual sometimes I just write what comes to mind.
Anyway, you're from England, and I much prefer Brits to Yanks - even though I'm a damned Yankee myself.
Am I right in thinking that in some ways your one-time idealistic outlook seems to have been crushed a little and that you're maybe a little hyper-sensitive for this world?!
Not at all!! As I wrote in an earlier post, I've never been more positive, energetic, excited, and full of ideas and ideals, as now, after all these damned ordeals. Actually, I've gotten so much more clarity, that where there used to be doubt and bewilderment, there is now aha! and ahh!
Anyway, I hope I can consider you a friend! One can never have too many of those.
Cheers,
777
And what are the "benefits thereof"...that anyone may attain and not necessarily go through the said curriculum that is said to take one to such said higher grades?
Think about it: how was Blavatsky a 8=3 as Crowley said that she was, otherwise? It's not just Leah Hirsig! Go through the list of Thelemic Saints! Many of those were 8=3 or 9=2, of course some ( e.g. Levi) were of a lower Grade.
Before Crowley, there was Aiwaz; before the A.'.A.'., there was the Eternal Invisible Order; and even after the foundation of the A.'.A.'., there are other ways to Attain, for those whose Will it is to do so some other Way.
What if Crowley's Rituals and A.'.A.'. training regime actually induces a inferiority complex or some neurosis that some sincere true believers have been hurt by a system that actually cripples actualizing the 'Grades'?
I have never seen or experienced such an event.
Regarding Leah Hirsig as Scarlet Woman and this notion that woman do not have power relative various power structures of say the "OTO", I think that there is a certain power that might come from being in relative to creation and possession of Cakes of Light.
Every woman is some or other manifestation of Babalon! As for H KOKKINE GYNE, "The Scarlet Woman", I see her as something akin a New Manifestation of the Oracle of Delphi - or actually the Oracles, plural, as there were many of them. This thread, however, only deals with one of those, however, so I'll focus on her.
It was speculated that Leah was down and out in Paris, as rumored by some, due to loss of the manna of important rites with To Mega Therion, while others have said that those sordid days were actually a ruse, and that on the lam, the feint was ruin, the temple empty and that the magic of the stars was but a literary trick of glamor riddled with sadistic puzzles used to justify entrapment in a cult and awakening that threatened the world of the gods of men....
Well, I dunno...1924 was rough for her in Paris, but she got out of that and got back with Crowley again as his assistant and secretary. By the way, have you seen some of Crowley's writing? Some of it wasn't so good. Leah, however, was a brilliant writer, and she composed from dictation many of the books and diaries that we enjoy today.
Note the gods of woman are not apparently on the chopping block...And may be why the mysteries of the Cakes of Light might be a secret of Leah's at least that may never see the light of day or might literally even...
I dunno what you're saying here...as for Liber Legis, all of it is behind a veil...and there is a Truth hidden behind that curtain, which is to be revealed after awhile.
Cheers,
777
Wow!! that's some scary psychoanalysis there! no, none of that I think
OK, one can only go on limited information here, like you with me and clownish thoughts!
I've never been more positive, energetic, excited, and full of ideas and ideals, as [...] there is now aha! and ahh!
It's good you seem so "up" at the moment compared with a couple of weeks ago (when you were going to take a break and were a bit more despondent) and especially so if it's not the up and down with bipolar/ manic depression.
Anyway, you're from England, and I much prefer Brits to Yanks - even though I'm a damned Yankee myself.
Us Brits are never quite sure whether Yankee refers to the whole USA or a particular geographical area which isn't Southern or "Confederate"!
Anyway, I hope I can consider you a friend!
I tend to be friendly with everyone on the Lash to begin with until somebody does something which makes me not so friendly! - but yes, I'm "cool" with it too, Aleisterion!
Aliana told me that she could release interesting "foreshadowings" of the Leah Hirsig book, if the thread remains open that is.
I look forward to these and think it unlikely the thread will be locked (but you never know!). Perhaps you could also just check with her if she knows whether Leah was a IX* as well as 8=3, and whether she has anything to say about her as a dead soul?
The identity of B is Barter, as in Jamie J Barter
Oh! I see. Well why so formal, well? Not as if we're in the armed forces, or went to public US=private) school together. Given Aleisterion's remarks one might even read it as being rather unfriendly, rather than the reverse! We don't even know your own first or last names to be able to 'return the favour'!
you not so young, Jamie J Barter [and/or] Norma N Joy Conquest.
There seems to be a little confusion - allow me to try to clear it up: I think I originally put the explanation down soon after I joined but I'll put it down again for the benefit of anyone who doesn't/didn't know or might have missed it the first time...
At one time on the forum there were a lot of people putting A.C.'S benedictory greeting and farewell at the beginning and end of their posts (less do now. I don't think this was ever an instruction by AC even to anyone in his 2 orders far less anybody outside, but more of a suggestion or recommendation of good practice that would basically serve as a reminder to Thelemites, to be aware of and practice the Law.) I always thought it had the tendency to turn into just rote practice and repetition, and that if they were going to have this done at all everyone should do their own version based on their own orientation and outlook.
For a while, I put 'There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt' at the start as my own personal variation and toyed with the idea of putting 'Existence is pure joy' at the end as well, but it struck me this would end up becoming rote petition also so I discontinued the former and tinkered with the latter.
As my magical name with relation to the third chapter of AL was Conquest (the other 2 being Oroboros and AvdAstra, for the benefit of the curious) this I appended, linking it with the statement relating to Pure Joy and making a little joke so as not to take everything too seriously, ending up with Norman Conquest.
I normally only put the full version Norma N Joy Conquest once at the end of the first post in every thread, after that I shorten the whole thing to 'N Joy' or some subtle variation, and omitting the e, which like a sigil serves on a subconscious level to subliminally enjoin readers to continue to enjoy the universe, and not be sorrowful or suffering. For what it's worth! I suppose I might get tired of doing it all at some point and did have second thoughts about doing it coming back again, but it fulfils a useful discipline for me as well and it makes a change from just writing '93' and all that.
Not everyone might agree or approve, but that's my reasoning for it anyway and everyone is free to come up with their own version/ variation or not. Or even copy mine, or not. Naturally.
What if Crowley's Rituals and A.'.A.'. training regime actually induces a inferiority complex or some neurosis that some sincere true believers have been hurt by a system that actually cripples actualizing the 'Grades'?
Yes that would work against the seeker's intent, but would hardly have been the purpose.
Of course the notion of such tales, of existing cakes of light from To Mega Therion, himself....that there are some that survive somewhere, perhaps even from the coupling of Alostrael.
The 'Elixir' was never an ingredient of Cakes of Light, according to any known recipe
Why I was even told that
The rumour mill is surely running into overdrive!
And now with gene spicing, cloning and the like, the prospects of such a find
With such a "Jurassic Park" type of scenario, there's just as likely to be the odd loose hairs in old clothes or robes A.C. would have worn (such as those bought up in job lots by J. Page, Esq, no less)
I have heard read some plots - the Boys from Brazil, for example - but this takes the apostrophe!
Anybody, anywhere, at any time, may enter this state (and be 8=3 for an hour or a day) as long as the conditions and the alignment are correct (setting and set - but I'm not including meds as they are only previews).
So how long do you think a "proper" 8=3 sustains for (before s/he lapses down to a lower state?) I mean, Crowley when he was being a shit (even in later life) could hardly have been expected to be manifesting the traits of an Ipsissimus then, could he?
The A.'.A.'. is a made-up org, the initials borrowed from the Golden Dawn,
but they borrowed a bit more than just the initials!
that, from my limited point of view, offers the most direct curriculum ladder available to Western dialects and lingos.
To date. Until...
I recommend the Class D Libers as the basis of practice, while viewing everything else with discrimination as to which is Frater Perdurabo and which is Imp Crowley. Who can tell?
Never mind Frater Perdurabo, what about To Mega Therion? Some would like to think that by 9=2 (at least - if not at a lower magical persona) Therion would be talking "straight" (even if unpalatably) and be above just playing any practical jokes/ Loki-ery. Perdurabo would be more likely to indulge, hence the confusion with the Imp Crowley. But would the Imp be capable of writing The Book of Lies?
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