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Scarlet Woman and Eve


 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Please dont take this topic for fact, but rather creative thinking, and just a curious mind looking for more indepth answers.

So many focus their attention on Lilith and the relationship she shared with Adam, and JHVH. However very few analyze the possible relationship Lilith had with Eve.

Although Eve submitted to her husband and to the will of JHVH, little information is left to why. Is it possible this was plotted with Lilith? If Lilith was the serpent in the Garden, Eve had much time alone with her- Im sure whatever 'apple' (seed) was given to Eve held more than the knowledge of the world.

Does anyone see Eve as a scarlet woman as well? Or is this just a fantasy that the submissive Eve had a greater purpose for her actions.


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 Anonymous
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Can you explain how this is related to Thelema? Can you show me an example of how this submissive archetype was doing her will? How is this relevant to Thelema?


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 Anonymous
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Who is to say she wasnt?

What if Eve would have taken the same stance as Lilith, and joined her? Would JHVH have created another female for Adam to populate the world with? Is it at all possible Eve did Liliths work by being submissive to JHVH in order to populate the earth for something important down the road.

Im just curious. So many see Eve as this weak creature- and so there for she couldnt possible be a Scarlet Woman. Some of the most creative women throughout history worked silently behind backs turned, doing the will of their own, but submissive to the public eye.

Im not saying that Eve has anything to do with Thelema. Im here to learn, and I have questions.


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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It's just a story. If you want to reuse the characters go ahead. Your version is as likely to make sense as the original.

OK


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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It's just a story. If you want to reuse the characters go ahead. Your version is as likely to make sense as the original

Perhaps in the "re-using" there will also be new angles created by which to understand dynamic forces which cloak themselves in many myths. That seems to be how genuine mythology grows. Some might point to "corruptions" in "original" storylines but those breakages can also let new information in. Otherwise one is simply adhering to dogma-even if it's an acknowledged MYTHIC dogma.

Eve seems very two-fold. Docile, submissive, dutiful wife-ready made for the purpose. Then again (leaving Lilith out of the picture altogether) she disobeyed, achieved and lead Adam into what might be argued as a sexual initiation and with fig leaves clinging, ran with her husband from a type of automated existence into the world of experience-one laden with difficulty and pain-but holding out the promise of the Edenic Garden restored to a higher level of consciousness.

I say run with the myth and from it, make mountains more. And those new stories may well be worth the telling! 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Thank you kidneyhawk-

What would you say to tossing around the idea that possibly Eve was quite close to Lilith, and made a sacrifice for her, in order to target JHVH?


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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What would you say to tossing around the idea that possibly Eve was quite close to Lilith, and made a sacrifice for her, in order to target JHVH?

Well, for starters, I'd say this was QUITE the botched creation job! LOL!

But laughter aside, this is, of course, part of Gnostic tradition and myth: that the "Creator God" is an inferior entity who trapped the fallen spiritual essence (or "sparks") in bodies of flesh. This would certainly account for Eve being able to possess such volition, it being "encoded" in her, a portion "uncreated" and resonating to a plan beyond that of the Demiurge.

I think it's very interesting that in William Blake's Jerusalem, it is presented that Eve was not made by JHVH but Jesus, the "Divine Mercy." Adam (Man) was fashioned by Urizen (JHVH) and thus creation and the fall become one idea. Jesus, the redeemer (the "True God") then intervenes through the emanation of Eve to set up the means whereby he himself may become manifest in the fallen world and redeem it.

Now I hear Zain again:

how this is related to Thelema?

The Beast is clearly associated with the idea of MAN. And yet AC wrote:

"I, the Beast 666, am called to show this worship and to send it forth into the world. By my Woman called the Scarlet Woman, who is any woman that receives and transmits my Solar Word and Being, is this my Work achieved; for without woman man hath no power."

Thereby Eve is the begining of a process whereby the Beast or Man or the "Spark" within or the "True Will" can come to fruition.

So, yes, on one hand, Eve is part of "Operation Bring Down Big J." Beast and Babalon can be read, in this context, as the empowered projection of Adam and Eve...

Was Lilith in on the deal?

Ha ha...YOU tell ME! Stories within stories...

For the record, I tend to see all of this mythos as happening in a dynamic way within the human consciousness. It can be "Christianized," "Egypticized" etc etc. Yes, there are outward and bodily ways in which the story lives-but that's Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell, expanding Spiritual Vision by means of "the senses" or perceptive fields-which the Great Work absolutely broadens.

As that "broadening" occurs, so do the symbol sets and mythologies...

I strongly suspect that you will be writing some hitherto unread chapters in the saga!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I've so many ideas!

What if Lilith pitied Eve? Seeing a woman, similar to herself, subjected to servitude for a man she may not love, and forced to follow out the commandments of JHVH. Lilith taking the form of a serpent, curled in a tree of temptation (thanks to JHVH) whispers sweet tales of freedom to Eve, and fills her mind with fantasies and stories of the true face of JHVH. Is it at all possible Lilith fell in love with the kindness of Eve, and took her as a lover, and this was infact the 'seed' the 'apple' of knowledge?

Could Lilith be a secret lover to Eve? Eve could have been serving a greater purpose- having the seed of knowledge insider, burning away the veil of 'perfection' and offering her a world she can freely walk as a mortal God. Lilith takes Eve, whom takes Adam, away from JHVH; loss of control.

A small battle won.

I could just be full of it too 😛


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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93,

It is my belief that Eve and Lilith are the same person. Two sides of a coin. At the same time, Adam's two sides were effectively labeled Cain and Able. Of course Able couldn't be named Adam, for that would throw off the idea of an Archtype. The Serpent was indeed the Serpent...

On the Tree of Life, we see Adam (as the whole Tree but more specifically...), the Archtypal Male, in the position of Chokmah. His consort, Eve, resides naturally in the position of Binah. The Serpent then, which crawls its way around the 22 Paths or Intelligences, has its origins near Malkuth, which is home of the paired Brother of Duality, Cain and Able, and the reflection of Binah, Lilith.

Able himself was slain, which could be an allusion to him rising to the realm of crucifixtion, ie. Tiphareth, which would put the "good son" in the position of Vav. Lilith, of course, stays as the Heh Final in Malkuth. As for Cain, he perhaps became identified with the Serpent as well, and later personified as Shaitan, while his Brother, the Light Bearer, became Lucifer.

It's just how I think though, so I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

93 93/93,
Az


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I like your theory 🙂

I can agree that Lilith could be the otherside of Eve and vise versa


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 Anonymous
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deleted


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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No there isn't. How could there be?

Anything to do with Christ comes from the New Testament - a book written about 2 or 3 hundred years after the events to which it relates - making it about 1700 or 1800 years old. Beast and Scarlet woman also appear in this book.

Adam and Eve, Lillith, Cain and Abel etc. all come from the Old Testament which is considerably older, maybe three times as old, and deals with the rabid misbehaviour of power-drunk Middle Eastern psychos and various other matters. Curiously enough though the born-again type of Christian gets some of his vilest notions from the older book.

OK


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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deleted by author.

MB


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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"MisterBlack" wrote:
I do have some thoughts on Eve:

She was in a real sense Adam's Initiatrix -- cozying up to the Serpent, convincing Adam to partake of the psychedelic fruit of the Tree -- blowing YHVH's idyllic plan of the Garden of Eden (where nothing interesting really seemed to happen -- sort of a Walt Disney Bambi world before death crept in). The Garden sounds much like the Christian Heaven, where basking in Jehovah's glow seems to be all there is to look forward to.

True, being cast out of the Garden brought with it fig leaves/clothing. But how would all of the modern-day strippers earn a living if not for the unveiling of that forbidden fig? Death is a bummer, but it makes new life that much sweeter. Work sucks, but how satisfying would it be if everything was just handed to you? You might end up like Paris Hilton!

Eve was alot smarter, or at least wiser, than she is given credit for. More than the first hausfrau. She liberated mankind from the sort of sterile utopia Mr. White Beard seemed to have in mind, and made human life an interesting thing to live, with all shades of color.

As far as her relationship with Lilith, that's still an interesting question and has no easy answer. First wives and second wives tend not to get along well -- but then again if Lilith WAS the Serpent in the Garden, and Lilith opened Eve's eyes with the Fruit... that really shakes things up, in terms of credit and blame.

I think the Old Crow would have enjoyed this discussion.

MB

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

My own ideas, based on my research of our past and mediteranean/Balcan witch cult, relate Babalon to the Goddess Cybele, not Innana. But maybe Innana predates Cybele and we talk of the development of the same idea first as a Innana and later as a Babalon?
BTW, anyone notice similarity between Durga and Babalon? They both ride a lion.

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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A plot with Lilith is an interesting idea...

Not too far fetched at all. As I could see Lilith convincing Eve to seduce Adam.

As Adam, once seduced, quickly forgets about his creator and instead turns towards the lovely form that seduced him.

Thusly does the fall come about.

Lilith gaining her "revenge" by getting Adam to worship feminimity or form.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Lilith had much time to whisper sweet nothings into the willing ear of Eve. Its not mentioned how long the serpent had resided in the garden, nor how long the serpent held influence over Eve. Lilith could have been there days, or months, educating Eve of the mysteries of the world, and of JHVH. Lilith also probably had quite the affection for Eve; another woman, created to be a submissive 'slave' for Adam. She was commanded to listen to her husband and make babies. This was her purpose- or so said JHVH.

Lilith wanted equality with her so called 'partner'. She was made the same, and was no less than he. Why should she be beneath her husband, rather than beside him? I find it interesting Adam is portrayed as everything women hate; controlling, filled with ego, sexist, ect.. so we find we can sympathize with Liliths rebel against JHVH and his creation Adam.

What if Lilith took Eve as a lover, to show her sensuality instead of a service? It’s incredibly possible that after Eve was educated about the events that took place before her, and what could be ahead of her, she chose the forbidden knowledge, rather than live a life of service and unfullfillment. She may have found a love for Lilith and willingly helped set Adam and his creator up! By seducing, and manipulating her dear husband into taking the knowledge as well- therefore taking themselves away from JHVH. Lilith wins.

But by all accounts, Im not saying Adam was a bad man. Infact, I pity him. I see Adam as the type of person that only respects his creator out of fear...not love, or understanding.

This is just an idea of what could have been. I suppose you should believe what best resonates and connects with you, rather than believe lies because it’s 'the right way' and 'only truth'.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"OKontrair" wrote:
Adam and Eve, Lillith, Cain and Abel etc. all come from the Old Testament which is considerably older, maybe three times as old, and deals with the rabid misbehaviour of power-drunk Middle Eastern psychos and various other matters.

A little sweeping, perhaps. The Old Testament also includes things of great beauty such as the "Song of Songs". Many of the psalms are moving, too.


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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No Michael, it's not 'A little sweeping, perhaps' it's a lot sweeping definitely! It needs doing, grab that broom!

OK


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"OKontrair" wrote:
Adam and Eve, Lillith, Cain and Abel etc. all come from the Old Testament which is considerably older, maybe three times as old, and deals with the rabid misbehaviour of power-drunk Middle Eastern psychos and various other matters.

A little sweeping, perhaps. The Old Testament also includes things of great beauty such as the "Song of Songs". Many of the psalms are moving, too.

I like "Song of Songs" too. I've always liked how the crushingly cynical Ecclesiastes is immediately followed by the romantic and sensual "Song of Songs".

"8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts; what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?

9 If she be a wall, we will build upon her a turret of silver; and if she be a door, we will enclose her with boards of cedar.

10 I am a wall, and my breasts like the towers thereof; then was I in his eyes as one that found peace."

Come to think of it, isn't Crowley's Starlight from "Book of Lies" a bit like a mixture of Ecclesiastes and "Song of Songs"? 😉


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