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"The Great Beast and the Occult Origins of the Great Wa


 Anonymous
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Recent article on Crowley and espionage:

Lost Legends:
The Great Beast and the Occult Origins of the Great War

by Vincent Bridges

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n16/lost.html


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Interesting link: thank you.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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Indeed it was, "Secret Agent 666: Aleister Crowley, British Intelligence and the Occult" recommended reading? The garish comic book cover put me off, ridiculous, as never judge a book by its cover immediatly sprang to mind.


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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uggh there you go with the clothes again. BTW those boots really are ugly.


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Anpu2012
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Another article in the same journal may be somewhat interesting: see
http://www.jwmt.org/v2n19/golden.html

The focus is on John Dee and Edward Kelley, but the middle section, "The Strangest Biography," speculates that a source of the "007" stories may be Crowley to Ian Fleming, while both were in the secret service.

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n19/golden.html#strangest


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einDoppelganger
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The 007 signature came up a few months back on the Academic Magic mailing list. I was disappointed to discover the connection seemed to have been fabricated. Thanks for the ink to the article, I am off to read that now.

S


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 Anonymous
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well, if 007 was Dee's secret code name/cypher while working for Queen Elizabeth, he wasn't likely to include it in any correspondence now, wuld hee? Kind of obviates the purpose of having a code name in the first place. Don't quit your day jobs - to become spys at any rate.


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einDoppelganger
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It wasn't his code name in the first place - it was an icon for eyes of the Queen...

Please do try and be up on the facts before you try and indulge in snark, Ape - that one was not up to your usual level.


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 Anonymous
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I stand firmly behind any and all snark. eyes of the queen or cypher/codename - I still wouldn't recommend you go into the spy business. That detachable face of yours is a dead give-a-way to just about any counter-intelligence agent.


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einDoppelganger
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hahaah cheers Ape! 🙂

S


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 Anonymous
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amadan-De
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Odd synchronicity.

Looked at this while listening to a radio dramatisation of Dr No - never read the book but the description of the Dr's face was oddly 'Lam-like' (completely different from the film)*.....coincidence or connection?

*Unfortunately a quick on-line search didn't turn up a description from the book to link to.


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 Anonymous
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The question for me with all the crossovers between intelligence services and magic(k) is the extent to which the intelligence agents and their control are using magic as another means of pushing public opinion.

I know from firsthand experience that intelligence are always desperately keen to use any form of paranormal information you can supply- whether it's "traditional" remote viewing or oracular trances, anything that gives them clues.

WMD searches were common five or six years ago, and the scary seriousness with which even the most deceptive nonhuman statements were taken is illustrative...


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Anpu2012
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"Flying Tiger Comics" wrote:
The question for me with all the crossovers between intelligence services and magic(k) is the extent to which the intelligence agents and their control are using magic as another means of pushing public opinion.

I know from firsthand experience that intelligence are always desperately keen to use any form of paranormal information you can supply- whether it's "traditional" remote viewing or oracular trances, anything that gives them clues.

WMD searches were common five or six years ago, and the scary seriousness with which even the most deceptive nonhuman statements were taken is illustrative...

OK... so your point is?  (Or are you about to share personal experiences?)

Another writer's thoughts on the original topic (the 1910 Bartzabel working involving Marston,
Neuburg, Crowley, and Waddell) are available here:

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/ancestral-voices-prophesying-war/18650419

Of course Spence talks about the subject in his book, but only briefly (p 36). 


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Anpu2012
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Those interested in this subject might find it interesting to cross-check references between Spence's book and Fuller's biography of Victor Neuburg.  Some of those most "helpful" to Jean Fuller -- Yorke in particular--  are cited often by Spence.  Spence's work was what directed us to the work of Paul Newman mentioned in the last post.

While Fuller is at pains to mention that she's "no relation" to General J.F.C. Fuller (another agent Spence mentions often,) General Fuller also drops in and helpfully supplies her with material. 

Though Neuburg himself is mentioned only a few times by Spence (who thinks N was only "innocently involved" in espionage through his connection to Crowley), it seems that a plethora of individuals connected (by Spence) to different intelligence groups swirl around Neuburg until the end of his life.

Of interest, here is a "slip" Fuller finds in Yorke's account of the Paris working (agent Yorke has helpfully given Fuller his notes.)  Yorke says the Latin hexameters that were to be declaimed at the moment of orgasm were from a genuine Latin source.  Fuller determines they were written by "Walter Duranty, the foreign journalist for the New York Times."  Indeed Duranty and "lay - sister" Jane Cheron appear at least two different times during the working.  Spence, meanwhile, identifies Duranty as an intelligence operative and "Stalin apologist" with a ready supply of heroin for Cheron (and perhaps Crowley)... (years later Duranty seems to be an intermediary between Crowley and Isadora Duncan and Russian contacts.)

Commander Guy Montagu Marston, at whose home the 1910 working occurred, is of course oft-referred to by Spence.  Oddly enough, the last member of the 1910 working, Leila Waddell, is referred to more often than Neuburg, but still not often.  Spence notes an unsubstantiated rumor that Waddell was "married to or otherwise associated with a naval intelligence officer," but never ascertains who that person was.  Of course, an easy net search will show this is L.A. Waddell.  See this archived article:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16132820?searchTerm= 
"Since then Miss Waddell travelled far and wide, and recently made a stay in New York to dispose of a costly collection of rare violins, the property of her uncle, a wealthy merchant of Glasgow."
Further searching will show that this "costly collection," the "Waddell collection" belonged to scholar and former naval intelligence officer L.A. Waddell, and was sold to American Jay C. Freeman of New York City: googling violin sales, we find, "In 1923 he purchased the “Waddell collection” from Glasgow, Scotland, from L.A. Waddell."  L.A. Waddell appears elsewhere as Lieutenant Colonel Laurence Austine/Augustine Waddell, "... journalist, author, adventurer, and British Naval Intelligence officer."

We assume that's the connection some have looked for, and gives another explanation for her presence at the 1910 working.  It also makes it appear that her later (1915) fiddling at the Statue of Liberty in support of Irish independence was as disingenuous as Crowley's, especially since it seems likely that the violins of her uncle's came to New York (as she did) in 1915 on the Lusitania, but were not purchased by Freeman for several years later.  It would seem odd indeed to bring a collection owned by a British intelligence operative in Scotland to New York and turn around a few months later to support Irish independence.  (Crowley, apparently a British agent provocateur, appears in the 1914 Lusitania passenger lists as "Irish."  Not very.)


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amadan-De
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L. A. Waddell is a pretty interesting character in his own right - described by the Times in 1895 as "the first European to have penetrated the esoteric Buddhism of Tibet".
Some more here.
Wonder if Leila ever introduced Aleister to uncle Laurence?


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Anpu2012
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University of Glasgow lists these holdings:
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/manuscripts/search/resultsn.cfm?NID=6068&RID=&NID2=&RID2=&Y1=&Y2=
Its a fascinating list.

His works are rather controversial today, likely because attempts to prove "Aryan" (in this case, really Sumerian) origins of
civilization became rather... unpopular after World War 2.  (Wiki a list of his publications and you can see what I mean. )
But he must have been a fascinating person to be around.  Among other things (work on the Bon religion of Tibet and various
alphabet studies), he also did a far amount of work on Sumerian and Sanskrit.  I suppose it would not quite be fair to call
him the Sitchen of his day. 🙂  Some of his books are downloadable for free on scribd, but I wouldn't take the arguments to
a modern scholar on philology or the Grail! (He was also fascinated with a "British Edda" and Grail quests, it turns out.)  You do
have to wonder how someone half-Maori fit into this family of reverends and physicians. 


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Fascinating information in this thread. Thanks people!

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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amadan-De
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Waddell is definitely 'rather controversial' if only for his promotion of hyperdiffusionism (not popular these days)  ::)
I have a copy of his The British Edda (not a 1st ed. sadly) and while it is a fun retelling of myth he doesn't really persuade as far as his underlying theory goes.
Love to see some of his earlier works on India and Tibet though.


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OKontrair
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You should be able to get Lhasa and its Mysteries easily enough. I've had it for years in a Dover paperback but I never knew that Waddell was Leila's father. The book, being written by a soldier, is a good antidote/supplement to the romantic view of Tibet.

OK


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amadan-De
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Thanks for the tip - I haven't looked seriously but good to know that Dover do at least that one.
His "Frog-worship amongst the Newars: with a note on the etymology of the word Nepal" is bound to have food for thought/fantasy 🙂
L.A. wasn't Leila's father - the link Anpu2012 posted says he was her uncle.


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tor
 tor
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"Anpu2012" wrote:
... find it interesting to cross-check references between Spence's book and Fuller's biography of Victor Neuburg.  Some of those most "helpful" to Jean Fuller -- Yorke in particular--  are cited often by Spence.  ...

Though Neuburg himself is mentioned only a few times by Spence (who thinks N was only "innocently involved" in espionage through his connection to Crowley), it seems that a plethora of individuals connected (by Spence) to different intelligence groups swirl around Neuburg until the end of his life.

Yeah... Victor seems shadowed.  And imo Jean Fuller's World War I story about Vicky makes no sense either-- its like he refused to cooperate and had a breakdown then they stuck him in the service where "luckily" some guy he knows just happens to be in some position to get him reassigned as a clerk so that the guy can watch over him.  In WW1?  Why wasn't he sent off to be fodder like Tolkien and his buddies?  I get that the breakdown was caused by Crowley's cursing him but that doesn't explain the combo of protection and ostracism that tails him the rest of his life.  *Somebody*--my opinion, k, your mileage may vary, etc-- thinks the guy needs to be watched.  Glad Fuller's book is around but you get the sense she's a bit dim and more than a bit stuck on herself.

After the war Crowley and others even randomly appear and intimidate others in Neuberg's poetry circle (another thread talks about the incident with AC and Neuberg's student Dylan Thomas).  Then there is Vittoria Cremers, the one Jean Fuller describes as knowing the identity of Jack the Ripper and who Neuberg says is a black magician?  (Fuller also writes a book about J the R but doesn't buy Cremers's theory.)  I was really surprised to see Spence doesn't mention Cremers at all since she's another one who only seems to show up in places she has no reason to be.  Two chapters of the latest Ripper book--Jack the Ripper and black magic: Victorian conspiracy theories, secret societies and the supernatural mystique of the Whitechapel murders-- look at the claims Cremers makes, or says Mabel Collins makes, about the murders .  They wind through an incredible collection of GD members, theosophists, artists, writers, OTO members, Scotland Yard investigators and random rich people who have no reason to want to be around Cremers any more than (if you believe Jean Fuller's account) Victor Neuberg wants her to show up and bother him... and she has no reason anyone can see to bug Neuberg.

Re: comment above, also try "cross-referencing" some of the names in those two chapters zwith the ones in Agent 666 and Kaczynski's bio Perdurabo!  Kz says Cremers married "the son of a famous St. Petersburg banking family, the Rothschilds." Then she ditches him... guy is worth $40 million-- there is no fight, but somehow she is broke the rest of her life but living in expensive places and traveling all over?  Seems like the same pattern Richard Spense describes about AC, never having money but just enough money and drugs keep showing up.

Glad to see a conversation on this!  Any ideas about much this connects back to the 1910 working or the Paris working?  If at all?


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nigris
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"Sophia252" wrote:
Recent article on Crowley and espionage:

Lost Legends:
The Great Beast and the Occult Origins of the Great War

by Vincent Bridges

http://www.jwmt.org/v2n16/lost.html

Are the criticisms espoused in this thread which are reviewing Spence of any value?

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1G82VIMD4E65L/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1G82VIMD4E65L


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Michael Staley
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In my opinion, yes. Spence's book is fascinating and well-researched, but still largely speculation.


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Anpu2012
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Earlier in this thread, I wrote:

Another writer’s thoughts on the original topic (the 1910 Bartzabel working involving Marston,
Neuburg, Crowley, and Waddell) are available here:

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/ancestral-voices-prophesying-war/18650419

That link no longer works; indeed, we can no longer find this work anywhere. (In contrast, Newman's Tregerthen Horror appears in many catalogs and is for sale on Amazon.) Does anyone know why? Print-on-demand books, in our experience, rarely suddenly go out of print like this; we wonder if Newman decided to pull it for some reason. We're glad we got a copy when it was available.

Newman's work was a treasure trove of research that, relying on local knowledge as it did, isn't likely to be replicated. Along with tracing the tapestry of interpersonal connections that run from the Bartzabel working to the events he writes about in The Tregerthen Horror, he follows them through to other suggestive places: from Crowley through Cambridge/Rupert Brookes/Marton connections to George Mallory (a young mountaineer participated in the first three British expeditions to Everest), to the "Clarence House Set" and how one of the two men who committed suicide, Douglas Panton, had access to that group (which included Queen Victoria's grandson, Edward Prince of Wales); to Crowley's "raising Pan" in Paris with "his magical son of the period called McAleister," to the "Laughing Torso" trial being the venue where Crowley met Pat Doherty (mother of Ataturk aka Radall Gair). He's noted the plethora of novels and short stories that make use of the same events as well as greater works of literature, including T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, considered by some to be the greatest poem of the 20th century.

He also noted that in 1996, "a group of distinguished occultist and mediums visited Rempstone at the invitation of the owner. Their mission was to detect the sources of psychic disturbance that had agitated various servants, visitors and ladies of the house down the ages" (p. 76). Hopefully at some point those who participated will feel at liberty to say more about this.

If Paul Newman reads this, perhaps he can tell us if another edition of this book is likely to come out?


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RuneLogIX
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I think there is a strong case that AC was a spy until the end of the Cefalu period in which the scandal burned his bridges at MI6. I wonder if anyone has any more detailed speculation as to when his employment with the intelligence services ended?

In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.


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RuneLogIX
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Apologize if this is common knowledge but I just figured it out and had a laugh. I just found a note that AC originally had intended to call the Abbey of Thelema the Villa Santa Barbara. I figured that was just too specific to be entirely random and finally came across that "Saint Barbara is the Patron Saint of the Gunnery Branch of the British Royal Navy." La Rocca would be an ideal location for spies or artillery forward observers.

In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @runelogix

Apologize if this is common knowledge but I just figured it out and had a laugh. I just found a note that AC originally had intended to call the Abbey of Thelema the Villa Santa Barbara

Laughing is very healthy, but the thing is that "La Villa Santa Barbara" simply was the name of the villa that Crowley chose as his Abbey of Thelema.

grafik

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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @runelogix

I think there is a strong case that AC was a spy until the end of the Cefalu period in which the scandal burned his bridges at MI6. I wonder if anyone has any more detailed speculation as to when his employment with the intelligence services ended?

If I remember correctly the only thing that ended after Cefalu is AC's mentioning in the FBI files. It seems to be clear that he was still in some kind of "employment" for the British when in Germany and Berlin in the 30ies and probably much longer, as Spence suggests.

Love=Law

Lutz

 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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You mean person, shooting down our Full-Time Investing Nazi Comrade's effort to get a good conspiracy theory going, with dull old facts.

Also unfortunately for his inane theory, St Barbara is the patron saint of miners, artillerymen and those who work with explosives in every country, so her patronage of a UK unit might be offset by the prayers towards this saint by, for example, German artillerymen.


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christibrany
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Call me an idiot but I don't believe there is sufficient  evidence  that Crowley  was ever in the employ of the government.

Spence's book in my mind is nothing but vague speculation and wish fulfillment  to make the man more interesting.

 

If anything  all AC did was have access to the old boys club network ftom his Uni days and share gossip from his travels informally.

It speaks to his own wish to be a real spy that he kept that sad letter in his pocketwhen he died. 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @christibrany

Call me an idiot but I don't believe there is sufficient  evidence  that Crowley  was ever in the employ of the government.

I would never call you an idiot but maybe you want to reread Spence's book again? Of course he never was officially employed (meaning paid) but I guess Spence shows without much doubt how AC was seen useful by British secret service and also used by it, how he was "led" by various officials and even pretty often approached by them, even very late during World War 2. And there are not many of his old university buddies involved either but rather "big names" in "official espionage". Tobias Churton also mentions lots of evidence in his books.

Also, I think it doesn't make Crowley more interesting but explains a lot of his rather weird behaviour at times.

Surely Crowley would have loved to be involved much more.

Just my two cents.

Love=Law

Lutz


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christibrany
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@the_real_simon_iff

 

Lieber Lutz

Du hast guten Punkt gemacht. You've made good points and I think I should reread it from the Library for sure.

 

I mean I'm not convinced but it bears digging into. 

Ich hoffe dass Sir und Sein gut Sein. Gesundlich und froh.

 

 

93s

 

Chris 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

I would never call you an idiot

I would. In fact all of us are idiots. In ancent Greece, an idiot stayed to himself, away from the forum, and he did not participate in herd affairs. We cannot seem to avoid such participation, except perhaps by seeking a cave in Tibet, or at least Nepal, but if we were joiners we'd head over to the OTO.org.

I do not believe Chris is an idiot in the psych-ranking system, which is IQ of 60 or below. Other folks need to do their numbers to see if they qualify.

 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @christibrany

You've made good points and I think I should reread it from the Library for sure.

Only if you are interested of course. Spence is neither a Thelemite nor an Anti-Thelemite and I don't think he has any interest in making AC more interesting. It seems AC just crossed his path when researching another spy - he is a spy researcher - and I trust he knows when he sees one. Of course MI5 and the other services are not eager to admit this. An example: Spence writes MI5 to get the AC files. MI5 answers they have none. Spence finds a reference to an AC file and writes again. MI5 answers, ah, yes, we forgot, we had this short note on AC, but it's been destroyed. Sorry. Spence finds another reference to another AC file and writes again. MI5 again says sorry, we forgot, we got a bunch, but it's all destroyed, promised! But then Italy, France, Germany: there are references everywhere. And Churton delivers even more clues. Of course, he wasn't an official spy, but at least something that we found here in Germany in masses when East Germany "came home": that there were lots of so called IMs (Inoffizieller Mitarbeiter = Unofficial Employee).

Anyway, I hope you and your loved ones are well. Take care!

Love=Law

Lutz


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Horemakhet
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You've not read 'Crowley In America' by Churton, Chris? Therein he dovetails with Spence, where appropriate, but also provides the entire context in painstaking detail. Yes, conclusions on the matter are speculative. For my part I would find it odd, knowing what I do now, if AC wasn't a part-time agent & paid for being the same. His operation with 'The Fatherland' was a success, for one, & just look at how he was rescued out of the increasingly heated waters he'd immersed himself in to make it so upon his return to England! True that his public reputation took a hard knock, & again he would use it as an asset. Privately he was a man with powerful connections.


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christibrany
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@horemakhet

Hello friend. Yes inown that book . Fuck I hate.fones. anyway. It was super interesting but still didn't convince me that he was a real spy

 I think after you work in the gov you would call him an asset. One of many.

It should be Crowley 666 the asset but that's not near as cool as the spy.

 

@lutz

Of course it's all destroyed. That's the cowardly or Opsec way. Take your pick.

Hence no real proof but it's interesting.

 

Welllllp. Back to drumming

 

93s

 

I hope you are all enjoying the new feeling of spring and the Equinox.

Much love. 


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Horemakhet
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Same to you, Chris. There is that MID file, which Spence obtained, which notified the authorities that AC was a British agent in 1918. That, again, is not conclusive but definitely provocative. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

Fuck I hate.fones.

I tried to warn you.

 


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