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ignant666
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13/08/2019 1:16 am  

Yes, Mormons are bat-shit crazy, and used to be even crazier. So?


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ignant666
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13/08/2019 1:29 am  

Mark Twain on the Mormons, from Roughing it, 1872, this is chapter 16 "The Mormon Bible—Proofs of its Divinity—Plagiarism of its Authors—Story of Nephi—Wonderful Battle—Kilkenny Cats Outdone":

https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/book/roughing-it/chapter-xvi-the-mormon-bible-proofs-of-its-divinity

This is probably the single best sentence but it has a lot of competition:

And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am convinced.

The preceding chapter (available at the site above, as is the whole book) has an amusing, and obviously fabricated (he more or less admits this) account of Salt Lake City before they abolished polygamy in order to become a US state. Some other chapters before and after give more realistic accounts of early Utah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roughing_It


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soz
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13/08/2019 4:17 am  

Pretty sure that video isn't made by Mormons and doesn't reflect their actual beliefs, but then again I watched less than a minute of it before confirming my suspicions.

...Yep... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Makers


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belmurru
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13/08/2019 11:43 am  

It is true, actually. The cartoon is anti-Mormon, but the account is precisely accurate.

How do I know? I joined the LDS church in 1984, and studied it more deeply than most who are raised in it.

I never read the part about Jesus' wives and children, but I have to assume that was part of it too.

Many of these doctrines are not in the Mormon scriptures, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants. Rather, they were mostly the prophetic utterances of Brigham Young, the second President and Prophet of the church, recorded in a multivolume series called The Journal of Discourses.

I haven't looked at this stuff in decades, so I don't know if it's online. But here is the first verse of a song still in the hymnal and sung (I certainly sang it) - "If You Could Hie To Kolob" -

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/hymns/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob?lang=eng


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ignant666
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13/08/2019 2:33 pm  

It's basically the Scientology of the 19th century, with similar baroque space-opera-ish mythology. The merit-gaining "tech" is baptizing and marrying dead people instead of auditing. In each case, the goal is to become a Bearded Space-Daddy God. The Scientologists are newer, and don't yet have their own US state, but have about the same, or better, reputation as Mormons had 70 years in. Also they both have similar tastes in church architecture.

I am not a bit surprised that an accurate depiction of Mormon doctrine caused soz to say, oh, no way, this has to be fake. Did you know that American Indians used to ride camels in Bible days? And then, of course, there is "God's Special Underwear" (long-johns like everyone on the frontier used to wear, with embroidered symbols). And the anointing of genitals, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't recall AC ever having much to say about the Mormons, but certainly hope i'm mistaken and someone can dig something up.

In the Hag, he, in passing, mentions Joseph Smith as a "[man] of the highest genius... of peasant parentage", in a list of "examples of the lofty intelligence and the noblest character shooting up from the grossest stock" (others include Whitman, Lincoln, and Rodin). No mention of Brigham Young, Mormons, or Utah in the index.


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Tiger
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13/08/2019 3:42 pm  

The video struck me as a teaching technology that uses an self-emanating, self-originating body of reality, present before anything else existed, emanationism, Adi Buddha, Neoplatonism, etc kind of thing.


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ignant666
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13/08/2019 4:18 pm  

The video is Xian apologetics, and emphasizes the things that are most contrary to Xian doctrine.

There is a tiny core of what Theosophists called the "Secret Doctrine" but most of Mormonism is baroque nonsense deeply rooted in 19th century American rural frontier culture, where the Bible and possibly a book or two of Sir Walter Scott were the extent of "culture".

Joseph Smith's very limited imagination and tedious Bible-language faking (mixed, as Mark Twain notes, with frontier 'Murrican) make reading the Mormon scriptures just as bad as Twain says in Roughing it. Brigham Young was a far more interesting, if equally unscrupulous, con-man. Crowley of course had the same Bible-language faking disease but at least was better at it, perhaps due to being an educated person from a civilized country, rather than a semi-literate frontier grifter like Smith.

The fact that Mormons are now more or less respectable is a remarkable testament to the healing power of time, as it would be impossible to overstate how detested and despised they were in the 19th century. Once again, the Scientologists of the 19th century.


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belmurru
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13/08/2019 5:42 pm  

Crowley of course had the same Bible-language faking disease

I don't think he was faking it; it's perfectly natural if you are steeped in the Authorised Version, and have heard it at church your whole life. I don't know your upbringing, but if you have ever recited the Lord's Prayer as part of your spiritual practice, it is absolutely unnatural to say "Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be hallowed, may your kingdom come, may your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. ... for yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever, amen."

If that is your primordial childhood sense of mysterium tremendum et fascinans, prosaic English just doesn't get you there. Old King James English, for so many generations - not the last two in North America, I am sure, and for selected pockets of earlier ones, but certainly for any WASPs and Catholics over about 50 (It's "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with THEE," not "you", as well as the identical Lord's Prayer as the Authorised Version; they may have heard the Mass in Latin before 1963, but they said their Hail Marys and Our Fathers in Elizabethan English).


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ignant666
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13/08/2019 6:12 pm  

I had to go to Anglican/Episcopal services, and Sunday School, every Sunday until i was confirmed at 13 in 1972, and have never attended religious services again except weddings and funerals. Church scared the shit out of me.

Nothing before or since has given me the creeps like Protestantism, especially in its more pastel '60s forms, did/does. Not even meeting Breeze and Wasserman when they looked like that "creepy hippie junkies" picture on the cover of Wasserman's book creeped me out as hard as church.

My atheist academic parents always made clear that no one but an idiot believed that stuff, but that one had to go and observe the forms. They would typically join the priest for drinks after services. The priest's elder son taught me to "loid" a lock by pushing the bolt back with a thin plastic card (or, originally, celluloid card, thus the name) so that we could break into the church and work mischief while our parents were drinking.

When my hippie uncle and aunt became born-again in the early '70s, my great-grandmother, born on the Ohio frontier in the late 19th century (1884-1978) but moved to Philadelphia to run a women's hat business after her husband died of syphilis leaving her to raise my grandpa, said "Well, i suppose there's nothing wrong with going to church [she never had in her adult life], but your uncle is taking this Jesus crap entirely too seriously!" Her dad commanded two Ohio infantry units in the ongoing War against the Confederate traitors.

I am very familiar with the KJV and the Book of Common Prayer, and certainly love the language of them. i am pretty over the hatred and fear of Xianity that followed Sunday School for 25 years or so.

But Crowley's Bible-y tone never fails to grate on me as a phony attempt to sound "holy". Aiwass, for some reason, has the same disease.


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dom
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13/08/2019 6:28 pm  

@belmurru

am sure, and for selected pockets of earlier ones, but certainly for any WASPs and Catholics over about 50 (It’s “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with THEE,” not “you”

Yes that is true.

@everyone

It's the format that gets me i.e. the 1970s (possible very early 80s) Masters of the Universe type animation. The batshit crazy narrative with conservative American voiceover and weird-ass creepy background music ie the time and effort gone into it all..... just cracks me up. The 4m45s hey we admit Joseph Smith was known for his tall tales bit.

This video is a test. When you can watch without uttering "what the fuck?" or without dropping your jaw or saying "what?" then you are in.

@ignant666

In the Hag, he, in passing, mentions Joseph Smith as a “[man] of the highest genius… of peasant parentage”, in a list of “examples of the lofty intelligence and the noblest character shooting up from the grossest stock”

Dafuck?

Ironically the ancestors of Native Americans apparently crossed the Atlantic by iceberg and boat

.
http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans


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belmurru
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13/08/2019 7:23 pm  

But Crowley’s Bible-y tone never fails to grate on me as a phony attempt to sound “holy”. Aiwass, for some reason, has the same disease.

It's all about the numinous quality of the language, elevated, majestic, and timeless. If it doesn't do that for you, I can only imagine how grating it is. I find his usage quite expert and beautiful, completely natural with the biblical cadences.

Unlike you, I was never forced to go to church, any church, and had to find spirituality for myself. I'd like to say it began with the wonder of science, but I think it really began with the wonder of Christmas. Neither of my teenaged parents went to church, and when they split up when I was 5, I went to live with my father's parents. My father, born in 1948, was the second of eight children. Their last child, a daughter, was born three weeks after I was, so I had a kind of sister who was really my aunt. Sort of, as I was always an afterthought, in such a large and "old" family, I was put into whatever old clothes would fit and slept wherever there was room. But at Christmas everybody came home, the good cheer flowed, it was busy and fun all the time. The Christmas tree was the closest thing to an altar this family ever made, and what a generous altar it was! In a family of that size, the sheer volume of presents could not fit under the tree. The whole living room was basically turned into a wonderland of psychedelic colors and sounds, there was always a fireplace with crackling logs, "Bing on the hi-fi", etc. It couldn't have been more kitsch and tacky and whatever other adjectives you want, but it was sacred to me. I'd sit for hours, looking at the blinking lights and tinsel, soaking up the warm emotions of the people around, staring deeply into the dense branches toward the sacred mystery of the trunk, with the lights leading ever inward. Sometimes I'd lose track of time and find myself alone, lost in mystery and wonder.

So that must be the genesis of my religious feeling. The wonder of astronomy is the second, and of course in winter, in Canada, the cold clear nights are perfect times to commune with the stars.

Finally, it was only in early adolescence that I sought out an actual church in which to find friendship. First, at the age of 14, I joined the Seventh Day Adventists, which are really old-school, Catholics are the Anti-Christ, Reformation Protestants (Ellen G. White wrote their foundational text, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, a good read if you want to feel their vibe), right around Christmas of course; I left the following spring, and went back to my attempt at LaVeyan satanism and other occultist activities. Of course I didn't join the SDA church out of interest in their version of Christianity; I joined because the first night I was there, there was a family singing group from Spokane, Washington,and one of their daughters was just my age. It was desire for her that made up my mind; I can still sing the song, which begins
"Does anybody here wanna live forever? Say 'I do'
Does anybody here wanna walk on golden streets? Say 'I do'
Is anybody here sick and tired of livin' like you do?
Does anybody here want a home with love forever? Say 'I do'"
The reason I joined the Mormon church 4 years later was the same, with the difference that I knew I had an ulterior motive, and I had a lot more knowledge.

I also left that church after about 8 months, although this time I had the girl, and I persuaded her to leave, too. It actually wasn't much persuasion, just an unspoken knowledge we both had. Same year I took Minerval OTO, two weeks before Grady died.


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dom
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13/08/2019 7:34 pm  

The xmas tree tradition probably borrowed from earlier Pagan sources.


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13/08/2019 10:58 pm  

@belmurru See I knew I liked you Bel, you have a nice soul..

@Iggy I had to go to Anglican/Episcopal services, and Sunday School, every Sunday until i was confirmed at 13 in 1972, and have never attended religious services again except weddings and funerals. Church scared the shit out of me.

Well apparently I was an important personality to make unimportant and my parents were picked because of their relationship with the church, as it was a condition of my adoption, I be raised in the church. From what I gather I was passed from my lineage of Presby Mason Grand thingys to my adoptive line of Cruch of England grand mason thingys. At least I got St Marks with the lion...

All I remember is church every sunday sunday school. I went to a church pre school kindergarden Mt Michaels this time. However, like you Iggy, my parents weren't into it, just for the times and place. My Grandmother was the force, the ended up getting Queens Honours OAM. order of Australia medal, she was the church organist.. yeeeewk.. bought us and my cousins these huge organs that took up half our living room and made us go for organ lessons.. I only went for the simon coloured beep beep beep memory game after..she was also president of the churches mothers union the deaf society and the rose society, charity this and that.. I didn't like her one bit. There was not a drop of love in her for me, the interloper from an unknown gutter.
Grace before dinner .. dad used to keep the tradition but when not around the family, just us he said to us "time to say grace", we would bow our heads and he would say, "2 4 6 8, bog in don't wait".. mum used to frown but she didn't care really, I never heard the word jesus or god come from her lips. Thinking back, that was strange.. nor dad.. but then they suffered their siblings favouritism..

mum's family were also masons.. Sad days when mum died. My eyes had been opened. From unconsciousness subconsciousness to conscious unconscious, I had stopped being slave to what I was expected to be in each role, to me being me and I came out of the pagan closet and dusted off Crowley in the corner and followed the path of the universe.

I won't go there what happened in the 11 days of my dying to Walpurgisnacht I will always remember what they did to my mother. What they did to my sister.

so anyway, yeah growing up with the church... once again you have a similar road to me.

I was thinking today what Thoth said , ..funny I don't do a lot of that 😀 ... and realised he too was raised in the church and whereas my childhood was sunshine and happy , his was miserable and abusive.. his adult life was sunshiny and mine miserable.. so much the opposites

@tiger
The video struck me as a teaching technology that uses an self-emanating, self-originating body of reality, present before anything else existed, emanationism, Adi Buddha, Neoplatonism, etc kind of thing.

Ooops I've Had it I don't even know what NeoPlatonism is I can guess by the words it's new plato but i don't even know platos works as platos work..

@domDeviladvocate hows it going Dom 😀


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dom
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14/08/2019 12:06 am  

Anyone who didn't go to church (Catholic) on Sunday in my school was made to feel like a criminal.

The guys who were chosen as altar boys ended up as criminals.

Go figure.


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Shiva
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14/08/2019 12:39 am  

bel: "... for yours is the kingdom</sem>, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever, amen.”

For you have Malkuth, et Geburah, et Chesed, for all of temporal time-space. Amoun.

bel: I don’t think he was faking it ...

I don't either. Everybody knows that the Lord and his Agents speak in Olde King James English. Crowley could write a book or an Equinox in contemporary English, but holy books were usually in Thee, Thou, and Thine.

This, of course, brings up an important principle or concept: Whether or not an Agent of the Lord is an independent entity, or a piece of our sub/unconscious, when it/he/she speaks, and we "channel" its/his/her monologue or dialogue, it/he/she can only use the words and concepts that are already "in place" in our mind(s).

Yes, some folks are reported to have hit their head, and suddenly are speaking Chinese. And some people get into a snit, no, trance, and spout either gibberish, tongues, or foreign lingo. But that hasnt undergone full testing yet. If a Nordic alien offers you a ride in his craft, he doesn't say, "Get thee into my chariot, Satan." But if it was ArchAgent Gabriel, or Moroni [what a name for an Agent], he very likely would use Bible-speak .

Ig: My atheist academic parents always made clear that no one but an idiot believed that stuff, but that one had to go and observe the forms. They would typically join the priest for drinks after services. The priest’s elder son taught me to “loid” a lock by pushing the bolt back with a thin plastic card (or, originally, celluloid card, thus the name) so that we could break into the church and work mischief while our parents were drinking.

This account is so bizarre that you must either be making it up as you go, or it needs to be written as a screenplay, or at least a play-play.

Ig: But Crowley’s Bible-y tone never fails to grate on me as a phony attempt to sound “holy”. Aiwass, for some reason, has the same disease.

Me, too. Grate. Sounds like Quackers speaking. Or is it those Shakers ... or the Mennonites? Of course Aiwass is sympathetic ("same disease"). The Lord and his Agents learned English circa the late 1500s (16th century).

Also, note the tendency for A.'.A.'. graders to assume Latin Mottos (not Mottas). And the A.'.A.'. imprimatur has all those Collegiums.

Different languages for different upbringings. Probably imprinted or embedded in early childhood.

Is there a kirk? I'm Ag'in it! "Fully two-thirds of eveil on this planet is caused directly by religion."
-Sinnett, channeling (auto written) Master Morya (my paraphrasery)


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ignant666
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14/08/2019 1:15 am  

This account is so bizarre that you must either be making it up as you go, or it needs to be written as a screenplay, or at least a play-play.

This is absolutely true. His name was Paulie S., his little brother's name i forget. Paulie and i were best friends ages 7-10.

We regularly broke into the church, and drank communion wine because we were not allowed to have it (not more than a couple swills, since we were little kids), and ran around generally being silly, and trying to think of bad things to do.

The adults were busy drinking cocktails, and discussing whatever grown-ups talked about back then (hippies, Viet-Nam, civil rights, stupid grown-up books? who knew?), and we kids were bored. It is said that "Idle hands do the Devil's work", and probably children should not be left unsupervised after traumatic shit like an Xian Sunday school.

On Palm Sunday 1968 or 1969, we stole all the leftover palm-crosses, and burned them upside down on our "Satanic altar" (we called it this) in Paulie's back-yard in the corner of a gothic buttress of the church, while torturing bugs on the altar by putting pins in their heads and touching the antennas of our "G.I. Joe Walkie-Talkies" to the pins, causing them to jump and jerk. Yes, i was a pre-teen Satanist.

Another thing about my religious upbringing that makes modern folks go 'Huh?" is that my main Sunday School teacher could roll a cigarette one-handed, while holding his Protestant Children's Terrifying Bible Stories of God's EVIL Nature, And How He Tortures Folks book in his left hand.

Because of course he chain-smoked (in a suit and tie, to be fair to him) throughout teaching us our Sunday School lessons about Total Depravity, and Jesus, and reading us children's Bible stories like the Prophet Simon and the children and the bears, and whatnot.

Jesus always scared the living fuck out of me, and i was thus a sucker for Crowley when i found out about him age 12-13.

And the part about Great-Grandma Hattie and my born-again hippie uncle and aunt is absolutely true also. They are the nicest Xians you could ever hope to meet (gun-totin', Bible readin', left-votin' style) and all my cousins are super-nice woods-hippies, with Bible names but they make no never-mind over that stuff.


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Shiva
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14/08/2019 3:42 am  

Ig: This is absolutely true.

Okay ... in a metaphorical sense. The real question, upon which your lineage rests, is:
Do you have a written document, with official seal(s), issued to you by someone, who was touched by someone who was touched by Crowley, Germer, Motta, or the Devil?

We are only able to affiliate with one Devil ... all the rest being fakirs.


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ignant666
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14/08/2019 4:05 am  

No , i do not, and it is entirely possible i have imagined/made up my entire childhood and family history.

As my greatest mentor in the law, the late horrifying music biz dinosaur known to man as Harold Rosenblum, Esq. used to like to ask;

H: "These people, who claim to be your parents, how do you know?"

Me:"Well, Harold, my aunts and uncles say so."

H: "Paid actors!"

Me: "There are birth certificates, and other documents."

H: "Forgeries!"

me:"There are war records and stuff at the government going back generations!"

H: "Are there no depths, no treachery, to which these people will not sink, in their desire to deceive a nice young man like yourself?"

[Harold certainly had no such opinion of me, "the laziest and stupidest person [he] had ever tried to teach some law".]

Me: "Fine, Harold, i have no idea if my parents are actually my parents." [He did not do this routine more than a couple times a day, after all.]

H: "It is a wise child, [Ignant], who knows his own mother. Now would be an excellent time to bring my delicious lunch, i am thinking."

[BACK AT THE OFFICE. WE HAVE BEEN SUED BY MORE OF THE DOZENS OF ARTISTS WE ARE NOT PAYING SONG-WRITING ROYALTIES THEY ARE DUE.]

Very Gay Co-Senior Counsel: "OH- MY-GOD, Har-old, not MORE paternity suits!" [this line used every day after lunch, by which time we had been served with all the papers from all the artists who had sued us that day.

Perhaps i should explain that Harold was very fat and not perhaps as attractive to women as he might have wished.

He once commanded: "Sha-Ron, cover your ears!" [addressing the gorgeous black attorney who did most of the actual work].

H: "[Ignant], do you know my greatest wish?"

Me: "No, Harold, what is your greatest wish, that Sha-Ron cannot hear?"

H: "[Ignant], i would like, just once, to see my penis again, without looking in the mirror."

Me: "So Harold, do you think your problem is that you are too fat, or that your penis is too small?"

H: "I am shocked that you would even ask me these questions, which only show the limitations of your sad and vulgar mind."


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Shiva
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14/08/2019 4:15 am  

Ig: No , i do not ... (followed by excuses).

No Certificate of Verified Evocation? Too bad. You will have to join Germer, McMurtry, Seckler, Eshelman, Motta, Starr, Solar Lodge, and myself in the Losers classification.


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ignant666
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14/08/2019 4:37 am  

Yup, busted.

All i can do, your Honor ["your Honour" in Foreign Parts Where They Drive On The Wrong Side) is plead the little-known "Ain't Braggin' If'n It's So" rule.


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Tiger
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14/08/2019 4:41 am  

Child
wonder;
who made the earth
shake and quake;
make the sea
foam;
perhaps a millennia ago
with no verification .


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ignant666
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14/08/2019 4:54 am  

I will admit that the Sunday School book title Protestant Children’s Terrifying Bible Stories of God’s EVIL Nature, And How He Tortures Folks is from memory. and may not be entirely correct, but the substance of what it contained is very accurate.


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Tiger
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14/08/2019 5:12 am  

"The cut-throat debates about transubstantiation (in the Eucharist), the hypostases of the Trinity, or the divine/human nature of Christ, could not even be followed without a thorough training in current Greek philosophical discourse. By the end of the 5th century, the audience in the philosophical classrooms in Alexandria was predominantly Christian, and Neoplatonism continued to be taught in some form or other in Athens, Alexandria, Constantinople, Baghdad, Mistra, and other pockets of learning until its triumphant revival in Renaissance Italy.

Neoplatonists would most vehemently protest against the latter-day Christian dogma that human salvation has already been accomplished vicariously through the life and death of a man revered as the son of god.

Egyptian-born Plotinus (204/5–270) is commonly regarded as the founder of Neoplatonism

The Neoplatonists used the words “procession and return” (prohodos and epistrophê),

The term “Neoplatonism” refers to a philosophical school of thought that first emerged and flourished in the Greco-Roman world of late antiquity, roughly from the time of the Roman Imperial Crisis to the Arab conquest, i.e., the middle of the 3rd to the middle of the 7th century. In consequence of the

demise of ancient materialist or corporealist thought

They held Plato’s views, which they understood as a positive system of philosophical doctrine, in higher esteem than the tenets of the pre-Socratics, Aristotle, or any other subsequent thinker.

grand synthesis of an intellectual heritage that was by then exceedingly rich and profound. In effect, they absorbed, appropriated, and creatively harmonized almost the entire Hellenic tradition of philosophy, religion, and even literature

The result of this effort was a grandiose and powerfully persuasive system of thought that reflected upon a millennium of intellectual culture and brought the scientific and moral theories of Plato, Aristotle, and the ethics of the Stoics into fruitful dialogue with literature, myth, and religious practice.

meta-discourse and reflection on the sum-total of ideas produced over centuries of sustained inquiry into the human condition.

developed their characteristically speculative brand of philosophical enquiry in which empirical facts tended to serve as illustrations rather than heuristic starting points or test cases.

Assumption
mindful consciousness (nous, often translated as thought, intelligence, or intellect) is in an important sense ontologically prior to the physical realm typically taken for ultimate reality (Mind over Matter). There existed a dispute between Plato and Aristotle over whether or not the objects of mindful consciousness (abstract concepts, Platonic or otherwise, numbers, geometrical properties, and so forth) are also ontologically prior, but the Neoplatonists regarded this fact as a matter of inconsequential detail. And so, following a venerable and abiding tradition of Mind over Matter, Neoplatonism inevitably turned out to be an idealist type of philosophy.

reality, in all its cognitive and physical manifestations, depended on a highest principle which is unitary and singular. Neoplatonic philosophy is a strict form of principle-monism that strives to understand everything on the basis of a single cause that they considered divine, and indiscriminately referred to as “the First”, “the One”, or “the Good”.

Since it is reasonable to assume, as the Neoplatonists did, that any efficient cause is ontologically prior to, and hence more real, than its effect, then, in the hierarchy of being, the first principle, whatever it is, cannot be less “real” than the phenomena it is supposed to explain.

How are we to understand and describe the emergence of the universe, with all its diverse phenomena, as the effect of a singular principle of consciousness?

how is it possible to understand the emergence of the physical, material universe from a singularity that is in every sense unlike this universe? Their answer to this question was entirely new, and went far beyond any prior cosmic aetiology, including that of Plato’s Timaeus, in elegance

Neoplatonists were not creationists. That is to say, whatever account they were giving about the universe’s origin, this narrative was not to be misunderstood as recounting a creation in time or at the very beginning of time. Instead, they speculated that the process of the emergence of the universe from the divine principle, as they conceived of it (described below), has gone on forever, just as it continues at this very moment and will continue to do so, sustaining a world without end.

unlike the ancient theologians of Israel and Egypt, the Neoplatonists did not think that the universe could spring from the deity directly and in a way that surpasses all understanding, for example by being thought and spoken into existence. Their more refined view was that reality emerged from “the First” in coherent stages, in such a way that one stage functions as creative principle of the next.

the very first principle of reality, conceived of as an entity that is beyond Being, transcending all physical reality, very little can actually be said, except that it is absolute Unity.

According to Neoplatonic theory, Consciousness would not be some kind of emergent property of material constituents arranged in a certain way, but rather be the first effect of the activity of the One, the most supreme form of reality (since the One was posited to be beyond Being), a kind of pre-embodied power of cognition as such. Neoplatonists referred to Consciousness as the second “Hypostasis”

What, then, is the inner activity of Consciousness? The inherent task of consciousness is to understand, and understanding entails the cognition of causes. In trying to understand itself, Consciousness can only turn towards its origin and thus posit or behold the First as the transcendent principle of its own reality.

Soul is the very process of expressing the intelligible world in the derivative form of sensible natural living beings and the lives they live.

human existence is a striking representation of the cosmos as a whole, a microcosm in which all levels of being (Unity, Consciousness, Soul, Nature, Matter) are combined into one organic individual.
The entire cosmic edifice, “came from above”. A human being is therefore in the first instance not a social or political being, but a divine being, and life’s purpose was seen not so much in the exercise and rehearsal of the traditional virtues that give meaning and quality to our interaction with others, but in seeking “to bring back the god in us to the divine in the All

the principal doctrines of the Neoplatonists proved exceedingly influential throughout the entire history of western philosophy. Through Augustine (354–430) in the West and the 4th-century Cappadocian Fathers (Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus) in the East as well as the pseudo-epigraphic writings of Dionysius the Areopagite (early 6th century), Neoplatonism profoundly influenced the emergence of mainstream and not so mainstream Christian theology (John Scotus Eriugena, Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Meister Eckhart). In addition, by way of a pseudo-epigraphical treatise entitled Theology of Aristotle, Neoplatonic thought facilitated the integration of ancient philosophy and science into both Islam (especially through Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi and Avicenna [Ibn Sina]) and Judaism (Maimonides).

Neoplatonic ideas have continued to influence Western thinkers of the idealist persuasion, such as the Cambridge Platonists (who were really Neoplatonists), Leibniz, Hegel, Schelling, Fichte, Bergson and Teilhard de Chardin, to name but a few."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoplatonism/


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posts: 2024
14/08/2019 5:40 am  

Yes, Neo-Gnosticism/Illuminism/Theosophy/Crowleyanity is mostly a form of Neo-Platonism.

A spiritual/illuminated/gnosis-based "Here is this 'real reality', of which we illuminates have direct knowledge, that transcends or precedes the physical/intellectual 'forms', including that fake 'reality' you normies know." And there are many systems of Neo-Platonic pigeonholes, and a master-pigeonhole-correlation book (777), and other stuff. It is good to study and understand this stuff.

There are, however, 3 stages:

1) "When the mountain is the mountain, and the lake is the lake";

2) "When the mountain is not the mountain, and the lake is not the lake.";

3) "When the mountain is the mountain, and the lake is the lake".
______________________
put another way:

Disciple: "What is the 'Buddha Nature'?

Master: "Buddha is a dried shit stick!" [begins striking disciple about head, and whatever is easily reachable]


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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14/08/2019 6:19 am  

WARNING: THERE IS A TALKING MONKEY HOLDING YOU HOSTAGE INSIDE YOUR BRAIN.

THE MONKEY WILL BE HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT NEO-PLATONISM, ZEN, OR ANY TOPIC FOR DECADES. TALKING IS THE MONKEY'S JOB.

THERE IS ONE SOLUTION: TAKE OFF YOUR CLOTHES AND GO INTO THE WILDERNESS ALONE AFTER [REDACTED TO AVOID 'BEEF' WITH 'THE MAN'].


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posts: 3753
14/08/2019 8:55 am  

T: ... the emergence of the universe from the divine principle, as they conceived of it, ... has gone on forever, just as it continues at this very moment and will continue to do so, sustaining a world without end.

"Whenever seven sit in unity is the beginning of the age. This meeting goes on forever at Shamballa."
- The Book of Life and Death

Ig: i mean, if anyone knows something else that works, do let us know, but i never heard of another way ...

It is said that 20 years of Raja Yoga will do it. But it's still a temporary thing. There is no known way to stop the internal dialog permanently. Some folks seem to have done it, but they cannot pass along a technique or practice that will do it. Selective brain surgery may work, but we'd be placing a lot of trust in docs that don't know what they're doing.


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1371
14/08/2019 2:46 pm  

primal cosmic substance
conscious
monkey
on the level of seeming,
partless moments of inner, outer apprehenders
free from reference points,
a different chatter.
than the naked man in the woods.
zen master
chopping,
again, there, cycle.

pull roll scramble progressively
chatter chatter blah blah blah

shut up


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2019 1:45 am  

the inner three is
shiva the destroyer (sun) tiger the creator and iggy the father my opposite in the north that binds all together with me ..

Whenever seven sit in unity is the beginning of the age. This meeting goes on forever at Shamballa.”
– The Book of Life and Death

ok seven

Iggy
shiva
tiger
dom the devils advocate
belmurru
chris
michael
jamie

I need to know I have 8 real people not ghosts please

.. how is that for a choice that was chosen for me that's 8 and Paul as the ghost who walks any other suggestions?

from above typhonian is represented by Michael uranus ..i still call it herschel
so who else represents what from my diagram

then there the outer circles like the circle of twelve

Lashtal - is the chosen lineage of the king and record keepers of the scribe and the guardians of the royal line

Lashtal as the society of Aleister, or someone
will buy my farm (it is for sale) as holy ground of the rainbow serpent kingly queen to allow me to dwell in peace by my river and work on the universal opening and continuance the energy is here .. my birds are here and cows and kangaroos and fish in my river otherwise I have to fight and leave and im tired of fighting.. my will is to work HERE...and not have to leave here to often because i seem to get injured when i do... and I dont need the stress


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2019 7:36 am  

well in a perfect world that would be it..

the way i see it is that all lineages like the AA is corrupted at the top to stop truth emerging..


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posts: 3753
15/08/2019 8:10 am  

m: shiva the destroyer (sun)

How did you know I was a Tiphareth operator? (a rhetorical question)

m: I need to know I have 8 real people not ghosts please

Oh, you know: The eighth is (was) called Perdurabo. There is a precedent for 7 becoming 8; somebody simply has to become the Tao. The only problem is the "unity" part. Online, there's some unity, but mostly it's the discordian society.

United under the concept of Thelema? Sure. United under detailed, philosophical and practical ideas? Let me have a laugh before I go to zero.

We could say that we must be of one mind. That's okay, if it's the Universal Mind (Atma, who sits upon his Seat in the Source, and manifests as ying-yang). The difficulty is that it's a state of no-mind for the human cerebram. The 7 (or more) must sit in unity at Shamballa.

Shamballa is equal to Ain Soph Aur. How, in or out of Hades are 7+ human mentats ever going to get unfocused enough to have a corporate (or clandestine) meeting at the Ain Soph Aur open space?

m: Lashtal – is the chosen lineage of the king and record keepers of the scribe and the guardians of the royal line

No manure here. You're really on a roll today. The next thing you're going to say (I humorously insert words in your mouth) is that The Secret Chiefs are trying hard to work through 7, or 8, or 12 (watch that 12, it forms the 12:6o ratio. 12 hours to earn one;s bread, and 60 seconds on a clock where "Time is Money!"), or the 33 bird-headed Judges of The Illuminati.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2019 9:00 am  

you know, during the sad times around the new millenium.. I picked up a long grey what we call sloppy joes...at an op shop I think or someone gave it to me... it was a fleecy stretch jumper.. and it had my macleod of Lewis tartan in hand sewed letters on it..

PURDUE *always thought it was e

me wearing my perdue shirt

I always thought of it as my Crowley Jumper, my coat of arms and motto .... my macleod mottos are Hold Fast and I shine not Burn (lewis)

and I knew Perdurabo meant I will endure.. and I used to wrap myself in that jumper cry be sad and use that to gather the courage to step onwards
I often put it on after a beating or a beat down.. my shield...

come to think of it.. WTF did I have a grey jumper with hand sewed in my own macleod tartan PERDUE which is not an english word anyway... ????

can't be a rhetorical question..

perdurabo
purdue eureabo reminds me of uroboris glass


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2122
19/08/2019 10:35 pm  

I seemed to have missed some general madness as always.

Nice to be back. Still unpacking the 'new' house now.

In regards to Moroni (lol) all that comes to mind besides South Park is this song playing in my head over and over.

From my own personal 'Lost Weekend'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5MOVF54lI

In regards to the Moron err Mormon church I wonder at their proclivity towards blondes.

RE King James, I was raised Catholic and well it was stil thee and thou and I guess my own little holy chapbooks have some of that language. I guess it's the way we are imprinted at a young age.

Maybe if you were raised in a grocery store at the corner of Stanyan and Haight by Vietnamese parents you would use 'bro' and 'chick' instead of 'man' and 'woman.' who knows.


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1223
20/08/2019 5:42 am  

I seemed to have missed some general madness as always.

yerd came
too late after the parade, chris
they'd already
finished
stacking away
the crowd control barriers
puttin some sort
of an
end
to that
frail transcending coincidence
in which
folk
had sauntered away
hame
untill
the very
next
event

N Joy after Tiger?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 3753
20/08/2019 6:15 am  

Jamie ... I see the carriage return malfunction is contagious. Seven drops of Holy Oil in the crack around the ENTER key will usually provide a cure.


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