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dom
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13/04/2020 11:51 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@dom

Any of them willing to stay open. 

You just need to be smart about ventilation, number of clientele, sanitation, disinfection etc.  Mandatory masks. 

 

Say what?  The frontline nurses and doctors haven't even got the masks and disinfection facilities in this catastrophe let alone small businesses. 

 

This is reality, pandemic and premature lockdown-easing means we get an even worse future economic catastrophe.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


christibrany
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13/04/2020 11:57 pm  

@dom

 

Here in the US we are using cloth masks, and if made correctly they filter out about 70% of the virus as well as preventing it from spreading to others as you are keeping your moisture droplets to yourself.  

 

And when I speak of disinfection I am speaking of wiping surfaces with bleach and other cleaners. That is not that hard to do/find.  


dom
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14/04/2020 12:17 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

@dom

 

Here in the US we are using cloth masks, and if made correctly they filter out about 70% of the virus as well as preventing it from spreading to others as you are keeping your moisture droplets to yourself.  

 

And when I speak of disinfection I am speaking of wiping surfaces with bleach and other cleaners. That is not that hard to do/find.  

Spain are presently gambling and are allowing factory workers and construction workers back to work.  Spanish train wreck over the next few weeks or so?  Let's find out.      

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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14/04/2020 12:22 am  

@dom

 

I work in logistics and freight and construction here is all going normally still.   And no huge outbreaks.  Its just NY and California really.   

The Army just closed a large field hospital it established after treating 0 yes 0 patients, in the first  hotspot state of WA and is moving it all to NY now. 


ignant666
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14/04/2020 12:25 am  

Chiris: You are obviously in a place where this hasn't hit that hard yet, trust me that if you were anywhere where it was killing hundreds a day, you might have a different view.

Until the US is able to test and contact trace on the level that Germany and South Korea have done, which is very unlikely before mid-summer, we are screwed.

It is amazing, and tragic, that the US is so far behind other rich countries, and even poorer ones, and has failed so totally so far as a nation in responding to this pandemic. Governors in the northeast and northwest have had to organize mini-Federal governments to make up for the total Federal failure. I remember when other countries counted on us, but of course a TV game-show host wasn't President then.


christibrany
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14/04/2020 12:29 am  

Well the stay at home is helping slow the doubling rate.  In my area the doubling rate is up to 9 or 10 days now. I just hope no one gets hit as hard as NY or Italy anymore.  


ignant666
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14/04/2020 12:33 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

Its just NY and California really.   

Well, and Florida, and Michigan, and Colorado, and Georgia, and Illinois, and Missouri, and Texas, and New Jersey, and Massachusetts, and Arizona. Oh, and Utah.

A handful of states, really. Well, actually, states representing a huge majority of the population of the country. And it is now starting to hit the Republican states, hard.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map

The pandemic in the USA is far more severe than in any other country, with more than 577,000 cases identified so far, with practically no testing, far far more than any other country. And more deaths than any other country, with the number rising fast.

This is a total, continuing, failure of the Federal public-health system, in a country, that as recently as 2016, had the finest public-health system on the planet, and we are led by buffoons and clowns, and the relatives, and golf-buddies, of buffoons and clowns.


Shiva
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14/04/2020 1:25 am  
Posted by: @dom

This is reality, pandemic and premature lockdown-easing means we get an even worse future economic catastrophe. 

Agreed. Other countries, like Spain, will be our canary in the cole mine.

China stopped it through lockdown and shutup. Then they let people come in from outside China, who brought the Covid back home. They are now experiencing a resurgence. I hope the "authorities" everywhere are taking note of this Exuberant Tendency To Get Moving Again. Some people cannot sit still ... they will not pass the asana test and should not be electable or authorized for anything until they do.

 


dom liked
dom
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14/04/2020 8:00 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

This is reality, pandemic and premature lockdown-easing means we get an even worse future economic catastrophe. 

Agreed. Other countries, like Spain, will be our canary in the cole mine.

China stopped it through lockdown and shutup. Then they let people come in from outside China, who brought the Covid back home. They are now experiencing a resurgence.

Yeah I'm just repeating what the experts have said.  The other issue is, if the West gets a handle on this then so what?  The Third World will struggle to cope even more than The West did/is and as we are more interconnected nowadays the virus can hit back by being brought across borders anytime  from the developing world and then we're back to square one....or two.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


Tiger
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14/04/2020 10:56 am  

posted by @Shiva

“ the "authorities" everywhere are taking note of this Exuberant Tendency To Get Moving Again. Some people cannot sit still ... they will not pass the asana test “

Looks like those that have a better means to cushion themselves against the virus and a means to profit from the market are spending more energy on restarting the economy than attending to the task at hand.


Shiva
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14/04/2020 7:18 pm  
Posted by: @dom

then we're back to square one....or two.   

All's fair in Love and War. There is no equality between countries, people,or dogs, except up at the Universal levels. Down here, it's sink or swim, live or die, depending on where one's karma has dropped them.

Posted by: @tiger

Looks like those that have a better means to cushion themselves against the virus and a means to profit from the market are spending more energy on restarting the economy than attending to the task at hand.

Well, yeah, of course. They are sitting in isolation, trying to push buttons that will send workers back to work ... while the "investor" eats cake in his private, hermetically-sealed temple.

 


dom
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14/04/2020 9:30 pm  

@shiva

 

I did predict that Pakistani and Indian police would be getting very busy with their big sticks right about now and I was proven right. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ignant666
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14/04/2020 10:43 pm  

I have noticed that out Mighty Gorean Comrade And Full-Time Investor @RuneLogIX is back from his Aryan rimming retreat in the mountains, and has found time to post in other threads, but not in this one, which he started.

Of course, it is true that every single prediction that he has so confidently, and condescendingly, made in this thread has been dead wrong, so perhaps he is embarrassed.

Things are certainly "SUSFU" ["Situation Unchanged, Still Fucked Up"] world-wide, but nothing he predicted has happened.


Shiva
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15/04/2020 1:46 am  
Posted by: @dom

did predict that Pakistani and Indian police would be getting very busy with their big sticks right about now and I was proven right.

Then your name will be added to the list of the Annual Profit Festival (next year) as a contender for Profit of the Year (this year). This is good, because you, like myself, have no "solution" in the works and will miss that list.

Posted by: @ignant666

nothing he predicted has happened.

That's okay. I don't think he was on the Mob-Rule Empty-Shelf Prediction List anyway. I believe the AI detected something in his aw-rah to do with "fake news tendencies."

 


dom
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15/04/2020 12:19 pm  

@shiva

 

It was more like looking at a heavy grey and cloudy sky and 'predicting' that it was going to rain situation.

UK news story today about extending lockdown until Xmas.  

Oof! 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


azrael2393
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15/04/2020 1:00 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I have noticed that out Mighty Gorean Comrade And Full-Time Investor @RuneLogIX is back from his Aryan rimming retreat in the mountains, and has found time to post in other threads, but not in this one, which he started.

Of course, it is true that every single prediction that he has so confidently, and condescendingly, made in this thread has been dead wrong, so perhaps he is embarrassed.

Things are certainly "SUSFU" ["Situation Unchanged, Still Fucked Up"] world-wide, but nothing he predicted has happened.

Indeed. Oh mighty Nazi Investor, tell us what is going to happen next!


RuneLogIX
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15/04/2020 2:50 pm  

@azrael2393 since you are both dumb and patronizing I will tell you: the 15% death rate continues through December. The second wave begins in earnest in June-July. Much more than that is difficult to predict.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


azrael2393
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15/04/2020 2:52 pm  
Posted by: @runelogix

@azrael2393 since you are both dumb and patronizing I will tell you: the 15% death rate continues through December. The second wave begins in earnest in June-July. Much more than that is difficult to predict.

I might be dumb, but you are the bitch that predicts bullshit that never happens 🙂 


RuneLogIX
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15/04/2020 2:56 pm  

@azrael2393 Sorry I won't stoop to your level. I would tell you to go for a nice walk today but that might get you in some trouble hmm?

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


ignant666
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15/04/2020 3:09 pm  

Why, @runelogix , do you suppose it is that every single prediction you have made so far about COVID-19 has been so very wrong?

And since you have been so far wrong every single time so far, why on earth do you imagine anyone will take further predictions from you seriously?

Finally, where do you get this nonsense about "the 15% death rate continues through December"? In the US, there have been 601,472 positive tests, and 24,429 deaths. That's a 4% death rate, not 15%, and everyone agrees that the true number of cases is far higher, making the true death rate much lower. Worldwide, the numbers are 2,000,984 positive tests, and 128,071 deaths, or a 6% death rate.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

You can't even get your basic facts anywhere close to right.

 


azrael2393
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15/04/2020 3:18 pm  
Posted by: @runelogix

@azrael2393 Sorry I won't stoop to your level. I would tell you to go for a nice walk today but that might get you in some trouble hmm?

No need to stoop at any level: just stop pretending you know shit. Nothing of what you said came to pass, zero. You're an embarrassing 🙂


RuneLogIX
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15/04/2020 3:24 pm  

@ignant666 math, how do you work?

image

you like to claim by fiat that my predictions have been wrong but so far all of my very modest warnings about food supplies in February came about already. the actual hard times have not hit yet however it is nice to know your government has 10,000 fewer mouths to feed, let's pray it makes it a bit more north hmm?

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


RuneLogIX
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15/04/2020 3:26 pm  

@azrael2393 do you always talk to yourself in 3rd person?

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


azrael2393
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15/04/2020 3:27 pm  
Posted by: @runelogix

@azrael2393 do you always talk to yourself in 3rd person?

That did not make sense. Again. Meds maybe?


RuneLogIX
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15/04/2020 3:31 pm  

@azrael2393 yes I know reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I will use smaller words next time.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


ignant666
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15/04/2020 3:33 pm  

You are an astonishing arrogant person. Your prediction that worldwide food supplies would dry up in February, as China bought up all the world's food, was dead wrong, as was your prediction that wide-spread riots and the breakdown of civil order would occur in the US by March 28.

Posted by: @runelogix

math, how do you work?

image

 

Since you, being as stupid as you are arrogant, are incapable of doing simple arithmetic, and for some reason regard wikipedia as a more reliable source than the Johns Hopkins tracker everyone on earth is looking at, here is the death rate using the figures you have just provided:

128,011 / 1,999,628 = 0.06401740724, or a 6.4% death rate. Not a 15% death rate.

To call you an imbecile would be too kind.

 

 


azrael2393
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15/04/2020 3:38 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

To call you an imbecile would be too kind.

Look at his replies: he's having an episode, clearly. It's almost funny 🙂


Shiva
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15/04/2020 3:46 pm  
Posted by: @dom

UK news story today about extending lockdown until Xmas.  

Oof! 

In New Mexico, schools are closed for the rest of the year. But Denmark is now starting to send little kids back to school. Another Canary in the Cole Mine for us to watch?

 


dom
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16/04/2020 10:50 pm  

Latest UK news;

 

Mr Raab, who is deputising for Prime Minister Boris Johnson as he recovers from the virus, said the original three-month timeline set down by Mr Johnson to come through the peak of the virus was broadly “still the outline”.

The Cabinet minister told reporters there is “light at the end of the tunnel” but refused to set out a “definitive timeframe” for easing the lockdown measures, stressing that lifting them now would only lead to a “second lockdown”

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


 Anonymous
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17/04/2020 12:52 am  

It looks like the Canadian border with the US will remain closed to all but essential travel for longer despite the U.S. admin saying it could ease soon due to their perception that Canada is doing well in its handling of the pandemic. It's for the best, as Canada really isn't doing quite the same job as the U.S. is doing in its handling of the crisis. Perhaps the U.S. admin is making a flattering comparison for political reasons. 

Provincially we're at a place of maintaining standards and not imposing more public restrictions except for extending time frames, subject to change of course. The 14 day isolation period for temporary foreign workers coming to the province for seasonal work is being handled by provincial government instead of the burden and cost being put on employers. The regular wait period for provincial health coverage is being waived for those workers and for those already in the province, who wouldn't normally qualify, it's being given. It's heartening to see that foreign workers are still willing to work in Canada during the crisis

Locally, social distancing is being well maintained and obeyed by most, masks are being worn by what looks like about 25% in situations of close proximity, stores are sparkling clean although lightly stocked on some items and the general mood is cautiously optimistic. People are greeting others on the far side of the street when they pass now instead of just ones they pass on their sidewalk.


Shiva
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17/04/2020 1:46 am  

"The Washington Post newspaper has reported information obtained from diplomatic cables. They show that, in 2018, US science diplomats were sent on repeated visits to a Chinese research facility. Officials sent two warnings to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab.

The column says the officials were worried about safety and management weaknesses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and called for more help."  -BBC Online Today

 

 


christibrany
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17/04/2020 10:58 pm  

@shiva

CIA and Homeland Security and State are also investigating lab ties to the outbreak.  

What was conspiracy theory may become conspiracy fact.  If they let the cat out of the bag.  Research Canadian and New York Harvard arrests of professors and scientists and ties to Chinese money and labs as well. 

Back to my litter box. 


ignant666
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17/04/2020 11:13 pm  

Unless almost all of the science on the epidemiology/spread of this virus in China is wrong, the "escaped from a lab" claim can't be right. There are zero epidemiologists who would support this claim, and zero published articles.

To state the obvious, the reason the Federal agencies you mention are saying this is that they (like the entire US Federal government) exist for one purpose only right now: to ensure the re-election of Donald Trump, at any cost.

He is desperate to find someone to blame (China, the WHO, Democratic governors, anyone but him) for the many thousands of deaths caused by his total incompetence and failure.

Incidentally, it was only last fall that Trump eliminated the CDC project that had full-time US epidemiologists working at the infectious-disease lab in Wuhan.


christibrany
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17/04/2020 11:28 pm  

@ignant666

 

My dear friend,

I am not going to turn this into a political debate, but you must know with your erudition that not every government employee is a sworn acolyte of Der Fuhrer. 

People are still doing their daily normal jobs and investigating. 

 

You are actually contradicting yourself. 

On one hand you say that these employees are trying to re-elect him, while on the other hand you are saying these same employees are being fired. If they are being fired I don't see why they would vote for him. 

anyway . I know that fringe stuff is hard for academics to digest. And not because it's false but because it's not vetted. 

 


djedi
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17/04/2020 11:30 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

He is desperate to find someone to blame (China, the WHO, Democratic governors, anyone but him)

But surely they won't get fooled again?

Anyway, true or not, it's just one more piece of kindling in the fire to which China's feet will be held, and hopefully in an entertaining way.


christibrany
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17/04/2020 11:39 pm  

@djedi

 

I am delighting in seeing the Communist Party's earth crumble beneath them.

 

Goodbye Silk Road and goodbye your geopolitical standing. 

https://kenyanreport.com/2020/04/15/video-nigerians-burn-chinese-factory-in-retaliation-to-attacks-of-africans-in-china/


dom
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18/04/2020 1:25 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

@shiva

CIA and Homeland Security and State are also investigating lab ties to the outbreak.  

What was conspiracy theory may become conspiracy fact.  If they let the cat out of the bag.  Research Canadian and New York Harvard arrests of professors and scientists and ties to Chinese money and labs as well. 

Back to my litter box. 

Y'know I hear that The President only started to take the virus-threat seriously when his friends from  Fox News told him to get on it.   Fox News are running the country.  

Ignant mentioned a blame-game.  Check this out and judge for yourself;

 

When President Donald Trump tweeted "LIBERATE MINNESOTA!" on Friday morning, some of his most fervent supporters in far-right communities — including those who have agitated for violent insurrection — heard a call to arms.

The tweet was one of three sent from the president's account, along with "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!" and "LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!"

 

Trump's tweets came after small protests by Trump supporters broke out in a handful of states, many of which were fueled by anti-vaccination and anti-government groups. Anti-government sentiment has percolated among far-right extremists in recent weeks over the stay-at-home orders governors have issued to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

Trump's tweets, however, pushed many online extremist communities to speculate whether the president was advocating for armed conflict, an event they’ve termed "the boogaloo," for which many far-right activists have been gearing up and advocating since last year.

There were sharp increases on Twitter in terms associated with conspiracies such as QAnon and the "boogaloo" term immediately following the president’s tweets, according to the Network Contagion Research Institute, an independent nonprofit group of scientists and engineers that tracks and reports on misinformation and hate speech across social media.

Posts about the "boogaloo" on Twitter skyrocketed in the hours after the president’s tweets, with more than 1,000 tweets featuring the term, some of which received hundreds of retweets.

wait 1
wait

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


Shiva
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18/04/2020 2:11 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

Back to my litter box.

Well, thanks for dropping your litter here first. It's always exciting when rumors from the fringe start shaping up inside the circle. That lab in Wuhan was working specifically with SARS type viruses that were developed from bats. The dreaded epidemic factor (Wood-AEthyr element) seems to have clearly been present in Wuhan. I would like to say. "Of course the dumbos let it loose accidentally ... or ... Of course thecreepos let it loose on purpose," but I can't make up my mind, so I'll wait for the CIA, State, and Alternative News Media to get the "proof."

Posted by: @ignant666

Incidentally, it was only last fall that Trump eliminated the CDC project that had full-time US epidemiologists working at the infectious-disease lab in Wuhan.

I am uncomfortable with these actions that cut down our microbiological army. This is just another dimension we need to deal with, and we do have certain controls (more are needed). But I guess Public Health is a service, so it costs money, rather than bringing in a profit.

 

Posted by: @christibrany

Goodbye Silk Road

The Silk Road will be open in one way or another, for even though it burn down, an invisible road there stands (standeth), until the fall of the next United Nations.

.


 Anonymous
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18/04/2020 2:56 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

Research Canadian...arrests of professors and scientists and ties to Chinese money and labs as well. 

What incident(s) are you referring to in Canada?

There was an incident reported last July involving a Chinese researcher, her husband and students who were removed from the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg. The article was clear there were no arrests.

There was expert speculation that "this could be a case of intellectual property theft or technology leakage to China."

A follow-up article in October about the matter mentioned Wuhan.

Xiangguo Qiu — who was escorted out of the Winnipeg lab in July amid an RCMP investigation into what's being described by Public Health Agency of Canada as a possible "policy breach" — was invited to go to the Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory of the Chinese Academy of Sciences twice a year for two years, for up to two weeks each time.

Found some silly conspiracy stuff related to this that has the usual delusional scaremongering tabloid nonsense about Covid-19 involving 5G and the "Deep State". 

Posted by: @shiva

until the fall of the next United Nations.

Expecting the globalists to achieve their world government?


dom liked
dom
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18/04/2020 7:13 am  
Posted by: @xon
Posted by: @christibrany

Research Canadian...arrests of professors and scientists and ties to Chinese money and labs as well. 

What incident(s) are you referring to in Canada?

There was an incident reported last July involving a Chinese researcher, her husband and students who were removed from the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg. The article was clear there were no arrests.

There was expert speculation that "this could be a case of intellectual property theft or technology leakage to China."

A follow-up article in October about the matter mentioned 

Here's a task, make a list of Fox News's good points and bad points.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


Shiva
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18/04/2020 7:23 am  
Posted by: @xon

Covid-19 involving 5G and the "Deep State".

Ah, yes, it's all coming together now. The Deeper State turns on 5G satellites to activate and energize the 19-virus.

Specific research of waves and peaks has shown that the virus peaks in 40 days and goes impotent at 80 days. This sort of reflects something that seems to be true when observing China, Italy, Spain ... Our Cole Mine Canaries.

Posted by: @xon

Expecting the globalists to achieve their world government?

No, they seem to be eating it right now. However, some other fanatical research, with graphs and numbers, shows workers and small businesses consuming dirst, while the big biz guys are raking it in.

The Fall of the next United Nations was meant to rhyme with "until the fall of the Great equinox," which it does.


dom
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18/04/2020 7:43 am  

@shiva

Conspiracy theories are akin to medieval superstition.  They provide solace to the confused and ignorant.   We should only view them as a wacky possibility (Hitler never died but actually went to Brazil as Berlin fell etc) but you take them as being real. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


fraterihsan
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18/04/2020 10:24 am  
Posted by: @dom

@shiva

Conspiracy theories are akin to medieval superstition.  They provide solace to the confused and ignorant.   We should only view them as a wacky possibility (Hitler never died but actually went to Brazil as Berlin fell etc) but you take them as being real. 

If existence is falsehood upon falsehood, then what you say about basic human affairs must be disregarded as a contemporary superstition. 


fraterihsan
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dom
 dom
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18/04/2020 10:31 am  
Posted by: @fraterihsan

 

If existence is falsehood upon falsehood, 

What?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


Tiger
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18/04/2020 1:19 pm  

In an a side,
emptiness envelops;
fabrication
thought formed;
conceived.

There,
a notion.

It’s all the rage,
just a fad.

No worries dom
the idea of yourself
has changed
many times.


dom
 dom
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18/04/2020 1:28 pm  

Everyone's  a virologist all of  a sudden.   My point is if you are ignorant about virology you will more than likely be led astray by nonsense i.e. primitive blame-games.  Viruses have always come and gone on this planet well before there were even humans (or any primate).  Consider  the theory that the international dinosaur community were wiped out by a virus-enemy and not an asteroid. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1581
18/04/2020 4:26 pm  

“ Goodbye Silk Road “

i guess i’ll have to think of something else to spend my time with than giving people something they don’t like for christmas .


 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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18/04/2020 6:24 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Here's a task, make a list of Fox News's good points and bad points.

No thanks, not that that practice isn't worthwhile to do so regarding all news sources. It's a foreign news cable service that has little presence in Canada. Generally, any news that does come from a Murdoch service is considered unreliable and needing other sources.

The lawsuit that was launched in Washington state against Fox News regarding its propagandized downplaying of the COVID19 threat in its coverage, even if it doesn't proceed, helped put their opinion shows under the public spotlight. That the lawsuit included Comcast and AT&T is great. It would be a boon if the suit somehow could be used to remove these shows from Canadian cable services, further reducing Murdoch influence in Canada.

 

Posted by: @shiva

No, they seem to be eating it right now. However, some other fanatical research, with graphs and numbers, shows workers and small businesses consuming dirst, while the big biz guys are raking it in.

Despite the global trend to close borders, limit immigration and other actions now being enacted in response to Covid19, actions which were being pushed for by countries with anti-globalism governments before the crisis, it's many of those isolationist/nationalist led countries that seem to be taking the worst hits during this crisis. Maybe it isn't globalism that is the threat to people.

As for 'big biz' raking it in, it does appear to be that way in the US with the lack of oversight on aid funding and insider info from gov sources to divest/invest. However, it's not like that everywhere with the financial hit spread more evenly between big biz/small biz and individuals in other parts of the world.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3139
18/04/2020 6:48 pm  

Credit where due- an entirely sensible and intelligent post by our Canadian Comrade.

"American exceptionalism" includes the sacred freedom of the wealthy and well-connected to enrich themselves at government expense. Profiteering and self-dealing in times of war and pestilence used to be scorned by decent folk, and still is in civilized countries, and US states with more people than cattle in them.


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