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ignant666
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05/04/2020 7:26 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

a large war chest.

But the (c)OTO has the war-engine. They have the IX Supreme Secret.

But no real estate. And no gas stations.


ignant666
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05/04/2020 7:39 pm  

Speaking of war-engines, the aircraft-carrier commander who was removed from his command for requesting to return to port so his crew might have a chance of surviving COVID-19 has just tested positive for COVID-19:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/magazine/navy-captain-crozier-positive-coronavirus.html

Along with 155 (so far) of his former crew of 5,000, after they returned to port for testing and quarantine, as the Navy decided was best. After they removed Capt. Crozier from his command, for requesting permission to return to port for testing and quarantine.

Kinda maybe indicating that he may have been right. But he embarrassed Der President, so even though he was right, he was wrong.


herupakraath
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05/04/2020 7:48 pm  
Posted by: @xon

by improving their behaviour.

Good luck with that.


mal
 mal
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05/04/2020 7:58 pm  
Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @xon

by improving their behaviour.

Good luck with that.

There's always the entrenched. Depeleted old-aeon types that have no fucks left to give(that's what she said). Some of the species are more adaptable than others and if the Law of Thelema is universal then it applies to all sentient species incarnated on this planet or another...

The “abnormal” man who foresees the trend of the times and adapts circumstance intelligently, is laughed at, persecuted, often destroyed by the herd; but he and his heirs, when the crisis comes, are survivors.

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


Shiva
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05/04/2020 8:05 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

What are you, 12?

YOU ARE DIAL-OGL-ING WITH A ROBOT. One that was programmed, yes, twelve years ago. You cannot win. Resistance is futile. Your only hope for salvation of anything is to obey the CDC's advisory to do not feed.

Posted by: @ignant666

i never "asked" you to come over for "a fisticuffs", or challenged you to a fight

No, but I did ... to Los. Passively ("test of Chi"). He never responded, or noted, or even showed up for the showdown.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The Church of Scientology I do not know if owns most of the buidlings used by it, but I know that it has a large war chest. 

They move their offices around. They could buy & sell, but renting is possible.

However, COS is not Templar-based, yet they get the bucks.

US Grand Lodge is Templar-based. They have taken the Oath of Poverty, obviously. It would be interesting to know how much Int'l Grand Lodge has in assets or cashola.

 


wellreadwellbred
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05/04/2020 8:07 pm  

Shiva, did you and your Order Siblings follow Aleister Crowley's guidelines when creating said Order with its own real estate, and its own gas station[-s?]?

As far as I can remember, you Shiva mentioned something about the current leader of the current official OTO changing Crowley's guidelines for said Order. 

Can said transformation be the reason for that the said Order appears to be struggling with difficult economic circumstances?

Or can a general lack of money  among the Order Siblings within said Order, be the reason?


Shiva
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05/04/2020 8:11 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

But the (c)OTO has the war-engine. They have the IX Supreme Secret.

But no real estate. And no gas stations.

PLUS they have the inner satisfaction of absolute vindication, because they are duplexed. COS cannot make that claim.

I don't know what any of them are going to do when they need gas.

 

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

 


ignant666
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05/04/2020 8:14 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

No, but I did ... to Los.

I invited him out for a beverage, in the spirit of fraternity, since he claimed to live in NYC, and i hadn't moved up the river yet at the time.

Not up to much real-life activity, our S.'. H.'. Frater Doctor.

And of course you are right about the futility of battling Choronzonic manifestations, which only gives them strength.

Wife has moved on to hair-dying, so i assume this COVID-19 thing must be sorted.


frater-r
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05/04/2020 8:26 pm  

The Caliphate O.T.O. finished this year with a budget surplus of +6.00 USD. I have heard that they are scared to purchase real estate because of liability from sexual misconduct law suits.


ignant666
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05/04/2020 8:38 pm  

So there's your answer, wrwb- can't buy too many gas stations with six bucks!

And some might say that they're mostly in the business of giving older men sexual access to younger women, and have been since Reuss founded the order. Crowley's version was no different- that's why "the names of the women members are never disclosed". They were supposed to be sperm receptacles available to all male members (see what i did there?) and AC rightly judged hey would be scorned socially if known as such.

If that's right, they indeed would do well to avoid owning any real estate that might be seized as damages after lawsuits by the young women concerned. Pimps rent apartments for a reason, after all. And it's not lack of cash.


wellreadwellbred
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05/04/2020 8:47 pm  

Shiva: "PLUS they have the inner satisfaction of absolute vindication, because they are duplexed. COS cannot make that claim."

Hubbard's Scientology religion with the close similarity of its Thetan, its MEST [= Mass, Energy, Space, Time], and its Supreme Being, to respectively Hadit, Nuit, and RHK within Crowley's The Book of the Law, can be claimed to be a Jungian "shadow aspect/archetype" of the so-called 93 current derived from said book.


ignant666
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05/04/2020 9:04 pm  

But when was the last time you saw a Scientology gas station?


wellreadwellbred
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05/04/2020 9:23 pm  

ignant666: "But when was the last time you saw a Scientology gas station?"

 

Well, "... a garage formerly used as a public gas station is now the location of Motor Pool Gold and serves as the maintenance facility for the entire property. The base's Estates Division, responsible for maintenance and construction work, is located here. [...] Gold Base (also variously known as GoldGolden Era ProductionsInt Base, or Int) is the de facto international headquarters of the Church of Scientology, located north of San Jacinto, California, in unincorporated Riverside County, about 100 miles (160 km) from Los Angeles. The heavily guarded compound comprises about 50 buildings surrounded by high fences topped with blades and watched around the clock by patrols, cameras and motion detectors. The property is bisected by a public road, which is closely monitored by the Church with cameras recording passing traffic.

The Church of Scientology acquired the property, which had formerly been a resort called Gilman Hot Springs, in 1978." (Source: Gold Base[.] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Base )

Said Gold Base, might actually be the location where the current leader of the Church of Scientology is bunkering down during this Coronavirus pandemic.


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Shiva
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05/04/2020 9:42 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Wife has moved on to hair-dying, so i assume this COVID-19 thing must be sorted.

New York coronavirus cases 'dropping for first time'

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52177125

Posted by: @frater-r

The Caliphate O.T.O. finished this year with a budget surplus of +6.00 USD.

Well, this is to be expected. As an non-profit ogre org, it must strike a balance at the end of its fiscal year. Having cash lying around at year's end is naughty and forbidden. So they have to spend everything on something. Salaries are one good way to put money in your pocket. All legal, travel, utilities, rents are payable into one's purse.

So rents are expenses. Okay. But if they rent, and someone gets molested in their renthold, they can still be sued.

So one would need an itemized Prophet-and-Loss (P&L) Statement to really see how much goes where.

Posted by: @ignant666

AC rightly judged hey would be scorned socially if known as such.

The Order was also to provide Girls-Homes for fertilized females. A couple Profess-Houses got off the ground, but the Gyn-Houses never saw the light of day.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

a Jungian "shadow aspect/archetype" of the so-called 93 current

A fair enough and well put comparison and conclusion.

 


christibrany
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05/04/2020 11:08 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

 

You're a freak aren't you?

 

You never fail to entertain.

 

It's mostly your verbiage.

If I recall, you are Danish or Swedish.

Makes sense.

 

Anyway, this is not actually an insult.  In a true American fashion it's a 'josh' I am 'ribbing' you. 

You seem like an okay guy- just very uptight. 

 

At least you stopped your 'said Hubbard said, ' said. 

 

Speaking of motor pools.

 

A fun one was when my kindergarten class im Bayern , Bavaria got to ride a tank lol . 

 

I am here to speak about Scientology.

I am not a convert or a brainwashed.

But they do have some good Tech.

 

 

Its mostly about recapitulation (in the Castaneda school, and Daoist)

Relive your pain/Trauma, and excoriate the energy.

That works.

 

Also, talking works. 

But then after that its mostly money. 

 

 

 


ignant666
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05/04/2020 11:20 pm  

Tiger at Bronx Zoo tests positive for COVID-19:

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/bronx-zoo-tiger-diagnosed-coronavirus-after-developing-dry-cough

Boris Johnson hospitalized with COVID-19:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52177125

Something of a trend among large predators with light-colored hair, then.


christibrany
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05/04/2020 11:27 pm  

lol.

We saw kitties on walkies today.

I didnt touch em. 

 

We are all equal opportunity spreaders. 

 

 


Jamie J Barter
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05/04/2020 11:58 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Is it not understood that Horus is "a God of War..."?

That part is understood. What is still pending is WHO is he seeking vengeance against? Who will get hardly dealt with?

Those who choose not to accept the law, of course (the whole of the Law of Thelema).

This is Horus in his "role" as "Avenger" that is, as opposed to the ('meeker, gentler') Crowned & Conquering Child (see Achad and a previous post of mine way back somewhere in the bowels of Lashtal):

Horus appears as the avenger Apophis to those who try to Go Back, or retrogress.  He has to destroy them in order that they may be renewed.  But as long as we go forward, we travel with the Ever Coming Son, who is after all our Destiny, since He is within each of us as the True Urge of our Being.  This, then, is the secret of the Way of the TAO; step boldly out on the Path of Destiny, having aligned the personal with the Divine Will, and thus prepared oneselves for the acceptance of that destiny. Keep ahead of the urge from behind, and it will not fret us.
Then we become Free, Goers, Doing the Will of God upon Earth, Ever-Coming Sons of God.
But if we attempt to lag behind to carry out some personal whims and wishes, Destiny catches up with us and forces us on.  To those who wilfully turn back and seek to avoid cooperating with the Divine Plan, Horus is the Great Avenger.  Has he not said "I am a God of War and of Vengeance.  I will deal hardly with them." 
Thus at his coming in 1904 he found the Race in a state of definite retrogression.  "Civilization" met him as he advanced in triumph, and millions fell, without understanding what was happening.  He still drives ahead in his Chariot, and millions more will feel his Force and Fire, until the Race recognizes that it must right about face, and cheer the Conquering Hero on.  Then we shall have Peace and Rejoicing, and the Stern Warrior will seem as the Gentlest Child
. [My emphases.]

(from Chapter 6, "The Egyptian Revival" (1923))

N Joy


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Shiva
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06/04/2020 2:38 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

But they do have some good Tech.

The Deep State, and it's magical arm, The Black Lodge, have the best tech/tools/toys. The own companies that develop this stuff.

 


wellreadwellbred
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06/04/2020 7:09 am  

christibrany: "If I recall, you are Danish or Swedish. Makes sense. Anyway, this is not actually an insult.  In a true American fashion it's a 'josh' I am 'ribbing' you."

I am Norwegian, & Norway has a high number "of confirmed cases of COVID-19 per capita (as of 6 April 2020)", with "1,000+ confirmed cases per million". (Source: 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic by country and territory[.] From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_by_country_and_territory#Pandemic_by_country_and_territory )

A 'josh' or 'ribbing', from Stanley Kubrick with respect to Tom Cruise as a Scientologist, can have been an agenda behind the scene in the former's last film Eyes Wide Shut, where the actor Tom Cruise has this dialogue when being led by the arms by two younger women: 

Actor Tom Cruise: "Now, (sighing) ladies, where exactly are we going, exactly (sentence ending on a note of joy and laughter from all)?" Young women to the right on screen: "To where the rainbow ends." Actor Tom Cruise: "Where the rainbow ends!?" Young woman to the left on screen: "Don't you wanna go where the rainbow ends?" Actor Tom Cruise: (Sighing) Well, now that (sighing), depends where that is." Young woman to the right on screen: "Well, let's find out!"

("In the Sea Org [= the elite "inner core" of the Church of Scientology] we used to refer to GOLD [= int. HQ of CoS] as "over the rainbow", and meant a "secret" location in Hemet." (Source: Scientology Critical Information Directory[, glossary:] - - - http://www.xenu-directory.net/glossary/glossary_g.htm ))

'Genius subtlety or happy accidents? Rainbow lens flares in EYES WIDE SHUT' - - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhkg285UP7Q

("Shock does not fully describe how I felt at the time. It was as if I had clicked my heals together and suddenly found myself in the heart of my neighborhood in the West Village of New York City. There were the green newsstands, the Korean shops, the graffitied phone boxes, the little red and gold baubles hanging along the front of the local Thai restaurant. I commented on how much I liked the “small touches” — like the shop windows, book shops, coffee shops, cafes, hairdressers, bakeries, galleries, etc. When you looked up, every window was decorated. Just like real life, the variety was astounding, you could see cats, bird cages, televisions, paintings, different kinds of curtains and Christmas trees. Roy [= Roy Walker, Stanley Kubrick’s production designer] explained that Kubrick wanted to be able to shoot out of every window on the set." (Source: Eve Pomerance 1999 aricle titled 'PRODUCTION: Eyes Wide Open- A Rare Visit to the Set of Stanley Kubrick's Last Film - - -  https://www.indiewire.com/1999/07/production-eyes-wide-open-a-rare-visit-to-the-set-of-stanley-kubricks-last-film-82172/  ))


Jamie J Barter
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06/04/2020 9:52 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Or can a general lack of money  among the Order Siblings within said Order, be the reason [that the Caliphornian "O.T.O." appears to be struggling with financial difficulties]?

As noted previously, they appear to want to squander and fritter away what income they have from dues from a static and non-growing membership upon unnecessary legal shenanigans.

And don't generate any new revenue by publishing Crowley texts, like they oughta (in order to propagate promulgate the profit Prophet)

N Joy

 


azrael2393
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06/04/2020 11:25 am  

Little more on OTO Inc. finances: at the time of my resignation in June 2018, AMeTh Lodge (London, UK, UKGL) had around £27k in the bank that no one was allowed to use in any shape or form. It was widely know that was at least 3 times as much as UKGL's proper funds. 

Something else to notice: there are no lawsuits anymore, because they have no money to invest in them anymore, most of the lawyers left or see the OTO as the catering crew to the Boleskine House Foundation, Gunthe's promised land. - another amazing investment that will go nowhere. 

And also because the are almost no copyrights left anyway.


Shiva
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06/04/2020 6:58 pm  
Posted by: @azrael2393

And also because the are almost no copyrights left anyway.

Even if there were copying rights galore
the Tong will make money, not no more.
To support the elite and take a vacation
any good Tong must own a gas station.

They don't have a Rich Man from the West. All alchemists and sorcerers know, instinctively, that they must find a Patron or Perish. The alternative is to work.

Let me tell you where success is found: One gets up in the morning. It doesn't even have to be really early. RA - Eat something and go directly to work. Printing books (in the basement). Pumping gas (at the station). Making candles by the 55-gallon molten barrel method (in the other basement). Selling books in the bookstore (at the bookstore). Feed the chickens, goats, cows, et al (at the ranch).

Mid-day: HATh-HOOR - Pull that barge, lift that bail; it doesn't matter that you'll go to jail. Por concrete, heft steel girders, dig that well. Search the city in Tong-owned trucks. Get building supplies. Keep the press rolling.

Eve: A-TUM: Ceremonies. Initiate those cans.'.. Don't ask them for money, just offer them a vacation out in the desrt. Don't MAKE them work, they will pitch in ... or never come back again. Out in the wilder, fire up the generators, turn on the floodlights; continue daytime work as though the sun never set.

Midnight: KEPHER-RA: Knock off the work. Go solo. No herd-ness. Banish, Invoke, Asana, Prana, Darn-a-ra., read, sleep.

Instructions: Repeat daily. Pay no attention to weekends or holidays.

Does I of this resemble anything remotely related to current activities?

 


christibrany
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10/04/2020 4:33 pm  

Sneeze on my face and tell me that you love me.

I'll sneeze on your face and tell you I love you too. 

Life can be fine when we've covid-one-nine...


ignant666
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10/04/2020 6:05 pm  

Probably only really funny if you an old hardcore-era punk, but there are a few of us here:

image

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christibrany
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10/04/2020 6:23 pm  

lol nice

I still have a bunch of flyers like that in my closet somewhere. RIP a lot of those venues....


dom
 dom
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10/04/2020 7:54 pm  

This is how backward the real America is re; the Easter 'holidays';

 

At least 11 of the 15 states containing the highest percentage of especially at-risk individuals are not currently barring religious gatherings, a CNBC review of nationwide emergency orders found. 

 

 


ignant666
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10/04/2020 8:23 pm  

This is our great hope in the USA right now: All the evangelicals, Catholics, and ultra-orthodox Jews will kill each other off in mass gatherings over Easter/Passover.

We are just hoping they don't kill the rest of us.

Most of those states are Republican dominated, rural, and have limited public-health and hospital services. The reason they have high percentages of at-risk persons (overweight, diabetic, heart/lung disease, cancer) is those shitty hospital and public health networks, which are shitty to keep taxes low and "health" industry profits high, and the zeal of the Republican party in preventing people from having access to health care. They may well be very fucked by the beginning of May as a result of allowing Easter services. 


christibrany
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10/04/2020 8:57 pm  

Covid's rised. Covid's risen. Covid's killed ageeeeen.

Aeeee-meean! 


Shiva
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10/04/2020 9:08 pm  
Posted by: @dom

This is how backward the real America is re; the Easter 'holidays';

Never underestimated the power of herd-mentality, cultural programming.

 


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dom
 dom
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10/04/2020 10:49 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

 

. The reason they have high percentages of at-risk persons (overweight, diabetic, heart/lung disease, cancer) is those shitty hospital and public health networks, 

Yeah and another much overlooked point in this international catastrophe is that the virus is happy to kill off those with low immune systems, many, or most of which are low due to diet  i.e. a sustained diet of junk food.

This is why any policies of 'herd immunity' will probably be a disaster if instigated.  Hopefully not though. 


christibrany
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10/04/2020 11:10 pm  

@shiva

 

The best thing about herds is how they taste but I don't wanna eat no human bean. 

Yours Thuley,

Creutzfeldt-Jakob


Shiva
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11/04/2020 1:41 am  
Posted by: @dom

the virus is happy to kill off those with low immune systems

It;s a funny thing about the immune system and Covid-the-Invisible. Stage 1 is a fever & dry cough, which is normal enough for an immune system that takes a few days to fire up. Then, after 5-7 days, in Stage 2, the immune system overreacts, flooding the lungs with fluid. This can produce pneumonia, which is the actual cause of death. Or like Boris, you somehow avoid bad-pneumo and are taking short walks as you recover ... and find yourself miraculously alive in the New Aeon.

 


Jamie J Barter
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11/04/2020 6:07 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

All the evangelicals, Catholics, and [ultra-orthodox Jews] will kill each other off in mass gatherings over Easter/Passover. ... They may well be very fucked by the beginning of May as a result of allowing Easter services. 

They shall sip from the communal communion chalice, believing they are exempt & that their faith will redeem them from infection; yea, they shall sip...

N Joy


ignant666
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12/04/2020 12:13 am  

It was, of course, two weeks ago today, on March 28, that widespread food-riots and the breakdown of civil order in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic began all across the USA.

As we mourn the lost democratic order now irrevocable destroyed, i think it would be appropriate to call attention to @runelogix , who predicted the whole thing.

And was dead fucking wrong, since nothing of the sort has come to pass, or looks at all likely.

You, and those of your ilk, will have to wait a little longer for The Boogaloo to start. How is the Aryan rimming retreat in the mountains going?


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dom
 dom
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12/04/2020 12:46 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

 

Most of those states are Republican dominated, rural, and have limited public-health and hospital services. The reason they have high percentages of at-risk persons (overweight, diabetic, heart/lung disease, cancer) is those shitty hospital and public health networks, which are shitty to keep taxes low and "health" industry profits high, and the zeal of the Republican party in preventing people from having access to health care. They may well be very fucked by the beginning of May as a result of allowing Easter services. 

The American healthcare system is private.   Would I be correct in saying that whereas Brits never see the enforced contribution (income tax) they make to the universal NHS in the USA each citizen has a choice to keep the money and gamble he won't need it?  If he does want health insurance then he analyses the market and makes whatever payments he wants to some private company but he'd better make sure he reads the smallprint for what he is actually covered for? 


ignant666
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12/04/2020 1:09 pm  

Most Americans get health insurance through their employers, and are just as unaware as Brits as to what their health insurance actually costs, since the costs are paid by the employer before they calculate how much to pay people. Some share of the cost is deducted from paychecks, and employees are aware of that part, but it usually is a fraction of the actual cost paid by the employer. So most Americans believe they pay much less for health care than they really do.

And all the many millions who have become unemployed have also just lost their health coverage, in a pandemic. Trump refuses to re-open the Obamacare marketplace (which is normally open for enrollment in the fall only) to allow mass enrollment among the COVID-19 unemployed.

As to the fine print: Insurance has to cover a certain minimum number of things post-Obamacare, but of course the Republicans want to change that, and allow "insurance" that doesn't cover anything.

As to having insurance being a choice: Obamacare made having health insurance mandatory or you would pay a small fine. The requirement was overturned by the courts.

If you make 400% or less of the Federal poverty level for your state, insurance is subsidized, and often free in Democratic states and a few Republican states.

Finally, the US spends enormously more on health care than any other country, for much worse health outcomes than any comparable country.

 


dom
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12/04/2020 1:27 pm  

I see so what are the options for an unemployed person who needs hospital treatment?


ignant666
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12/04/2020 1:38 pm  

Dying, or finding a hospital willing to treat an uninsured person. There is a Federal fund that covers costs if they do this, but lots just won't.

At least one person in NYC died from COVID-19 after being refused care because he was uninsured; they referred him to another hospital that would treat an uninsured person. He died on the way from the first hospital to the second. I'm sure there are/will be  many more like him.

I know people from civilized countries will think i am making this stuff up, or exaggerating, Sadly, no. America is a third-world country with a lot of rich folks.


dom
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12/04/2020 1:46 pm  

By the way obviously an employee who has been treated hands his hospital-bill to his employer?    I can see how employers are going to think twice about employing someone with a condition?

@ignant666

Dying,

Really? Jesus.  I thought there may be 'charity-hospitals' or welfare-hospitals?  I guess I thought wrong. 

 

or finding a hospital willing to treat an uninsured person. There is a Federal fund that covers costs if they do this, but lots just won't.

 

Oh, like a welfare-hospital?  Are they in every state?  

At least one person in NYC died from COVID-19 after being refused care because he was uninsured; they referred him to another hospital that would treat an uninsured person. He died on the way from the first hospital to the second. I'm sure there are/will be  many more like him.

 

That's like some Bangladesh story.   Incredible. 


ignant666
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12/04/2020 2:09 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Are they in every state?  

Of course not. And bear in mind that some states are very big, and have huge areas with no hospitals at all. Not many people either of course, but the people will often have no hospital nearby, or only a very small hospital.

The states with few people are all also Republican, and have particularly harsh insurance laws. When COVID-19 becomes epidemic in those states, a lot will die. Easter services today will infect many thousands in those states (which are the only states that are allowing Easter services, because they are Republican states and pols depend on the megachurch/evangelical vote).

Posted by: @dom

That's like some Bangladesh story.   Incredible. 

One more time: the USA is a third world country with a lot of rich people.And a bloated military, i left that out the first time; i mean, credit where due.


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Shiva
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12/04/2020 5:41 pm  
Posted by: @dom

he'd better make sure he reads the smallprint for what he is actually covered for? 

Having read the fine print for five decades, it comes down to this (these days): All health insurance tongs offer the same basic package. They vary mainly in small details. If someone is poor, they get free Medicaid, plus food stamps, cash, and lots'a goodies.

Posted by: @dom

I see so what are the options for an unemployed person who needs hospital treatment?

Said unemployed person goes to the dreaded ER (Emerging Room) and he/she gets admitted. Signs are posted in the ER saying "You will not be denied care for lack of funds." They bill the patient afterward, and if no payment comes, they eat the profit and take the loss. Very common.

This is in Calif or New Mex. Ignant cites cases where this is not true. Maybe it varies by State.

Posted by: @dom

By the way obviously an employee who has been treated hands his hospital-bill to his employer? 

An employer furnishes Insurance. The Ins Co handles all the healthcare stuff. The employer knows nothing, except the worker took two hours off to see a doc. The employer never sees any bills or reports. That would be illegal. Health info is more secret than the Lost Word.

 


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dom
 dom
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13/04/2020 8:21 am  

@shiva

 

If someone is poor, they get free Medicaid, plus food stamps, cash, and lots'a goodies

Oh, is that contradicting Ignant?

 

Said unemployed person goes to the dreaded ER (Emerging Room) and he/she gets admitted. Signs are posted in the ER saying "You will not be denied care for lack of funds." They bill the patient afterward, and if no payment comes, they eat the profit and take the loss. Very common.

This is in Calif or New Mex. Ignant cites cases where this is not true. Maybe it varies by State.

 

ER?  Yes as in the TV series( which I never watched)?  

Is ER full of recent med graduates who are in effect treating guinea pigs who take the risk?

 


Tiger
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13/04/2020 12:05 pm  

“ Maybe it varies by State. “

In Rhode Island a Democratic State; years ago when i was making minimum wage with no insurance; i thought i was having some sort of heart attack. i was brought to ER where they put me in a line behind insurance payers. They told me i was eligible for 50% off If i signed a contract that would allow me to be billed for the utilities and the salaries of recent med graduates to become familiar with equipment and processes used. They kept telling me they had no answers but to keep coming as a domestic cavy; but after $4000 which was really $8000 I told em no. It took years to pay off. So i guess i was in the game.


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ignant666
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13/04/2020 12:10 pm  

If you are sufficiently poor, you can sign up to get free Medicaid (and perhaps food stamps; no more "cash" since Clinton abolished welfare in the early '90s). Most doctors won't take Medicaid patients, but many will

Where people get screwed is where they have a job that does not provide health insurance, but makes them not poor enough to get Medicaid, but still not making enough cash to afford insurance. Obamacare solves most of this problem by subsidizing insurance for most people in this situation; the Republican Party is obsessed with eliminating Obamacare but hasn't succeeded yet.

And a person who has just lost their job has almost always also lost their health insurance. They could then enroll in an Obamacare plan, if the exchanges were open, to allow them to, but Trump refuses to do this. It is still possible to get on Obamacare with the exchanges closed but harder.

Emergency Rooms are what Brits call "Casualty", the docs are just regular docs. And many but not all ERs will treat uninsured persons, because they will get reimbursed by the Federal government if they can't collect from the person treated.

But a lot of routine medical care is just not available in ERs, because they are short-term facilities intended to stabilize folks to move them on to care in another part of the hospital.

And the bills generated by any contact with an ER are GIGANTIC, so uninsured folks tend to avoid them to avoid poverty and bankruptcy. Going in to the ER, and giving a fake name works, but then makes follow-up care and prescriptions difficult.


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Shiva
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13/04/2020 9:23 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Oh, is that contradicting Ignant?

Medicaid is linked to the federal Establishment, but each State gets to set its own rules. I believe Ignant and I made that clear, though probably obscured in specific details.

This is why poor people must pick their State with care. California had a very liberal giveaway program, so poor people from all over left the crappy weather and moved to sunny Caliph, were they became housed, fed, and doctors looked after them.

Of course, Caliph has become the sixth largest economy in the world, and it is bankrupt (well, so's the USA).

Posted by: @dom

Is ER full of recent med graduates who are in effect treating guinea pigs who take the risk?

Yes, dom, ER is EMERGENCY ROOM.

No, it's worse than that. Many docs are either interns (not licensed yet). Some are still in MD school, doing a 2-week tour in ER, as they do in a other Departments.

But it's much better than that. I went through the ER as a patient-physician. I have also participated in TR (Trauma Room) procedures.

In the ER, the young guys do all the work. There is a white-haired guy in a white coat standing in the middle of of all things. The young guys constantly consult with the old guy, who is watching everything like Horus the Hawk.

The Guinea Pig concept is not valid ... except maybe in dermatology, where true skill is rare.

Posted by: @tiger

They kept telling me they had no answers

This is common enough. Many flare-ups in organic systems subside, and there's no trace of the original cause. The funny thing is, Oriental Medicine can tell what happened right away.

On the other hand, there are things that Western Med can do better than the old art.

Posted by: @ignant666

Most doctors won't take Medicaid patients, but many will

I worked in a Medical Center that accepted everything. A Medicaid patient visit paid $15 for acupuncture (I got $7.50). Disability (accidents, traumas) were billed at $80 per visit (I got $40). Anyone can surely see why many docs won't accept Medicaid.

Posted by: @ignant666

And the bills generated by any contact with an ER are GIGANTIC

Bigger than the G in Goliath and Godzilla.

 


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christibrany
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13/04/2020 11:04 pm  

Don't even get me started on 'Urgent Care' clinics that are popping up like mushrooms lately.

Largely unpractised/uneducated practitioners there.   It is your medium step in price in between a normal GP visit/appointment and a surprise ER visit.

I went for terrible tinnitus perhaps 6 or 7 months ago (luckily since gone) because I didn't want to lose anymore (low frequency) hearing. 

The doctor there literally told me (after the usual cursory exam in my ears and throat etc) that she had no idea what to do.  'What did your other doctor do?'  'Prescribed me (forgotten name) steroids'  'ok I will do that then.' lol

 

 

Some good news for the States?

'JHU says the U.S. currently has a mortality rate of 4%, based on confirmed cases. Only Germany (2.4%) is lower among the 10 countries most affected by COVID-19.

model by The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington projected that (Easter) Sunday would be the peak day for deaths from COVID-19 in the United States. The model predicts that the number of daily fatalities will begin to drop, but won't reach zero until June 22. The model is based on social distancing measures continuing. It also indicates that there are uncertainties that could lead to much higher daily death tolls.'

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coroanvirus-peak-us-model-projection/275-4753622a-9409-47d2-a28f-8e1fd235db14

 

Presuming social distancing rules remain in place until 1 May.  Which they shall. At least round here. 

 


christibrany
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13/04/2020 11:27 pm  

PS to say, my wife works in healthcare in an admin position (still going to work but for half days and doesn't see any public) and she read an email from the major hospital in these parts, who is so large they also own other medical campuses and clinics under different names, and they are almost bankrupt now due to the cancelling of all the elective procedures. 

 

They are pretty much asking for donations from clinics that are currently still operating.   

 

Maybe it is a good idea to keep beds free for the rush of COVID patients but they are not only not seeing a rush (yes thanks lockdowns but still the hype is also showing) , they are not making any money.

 

I think all along this should have been dealt with less severely.  I appreciate the flattening the curve, it makes sense . But I think more small businesses and economic drivers should have been allowed to operate, albeit with less staff, more distancing and with masks etc.  


dom
 dom
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13/04/2020 11:37 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

I think all along this should have been dealt with less severely.  I appreciate the flattening the curve, it makes sense . But I think more small businesses and economic drivers should have been allowed to operate, albeit with less staff, more distancing and with masks etc.  

What sort of small businesses would you have still open in this pandemic? 

Spain are relaxing the lockdown-measures right about now....... oh boy.


christibrany
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13/04/2020 11:40 pm  

@dom

Any of them willing to stay open. 

You just need to be smart about ventilation, number of clientele, sanitation, disinfection etc.  Mandatory masks. 

Its your choice as a free human being to endanger yourself by crossing the road, flying in an airplane, or shopping at a bookshop. 

 

If a million people can queue up at the market multiple times a week because they are bored at home, how is that any safer than in a small business which will have 10% of the clientele of say, Aldi? 


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