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Tiger
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06/12/2019 12:30 pm  

" As previously noted ( There is no way around it or through it. There is no thing that can be said or reasoned in these matters that is not going to end up in a confused state. Give it up ! It is only by doing without effort that understanding will come. Except for primordial Taoism, all philosophies and religions have some designated conditions or special settings into which the practitioner inserts himself, or herself, as the case might be. )

The special setting of the Bhagavad Gita presents a confused and despondent Arjuna…

All divine discussions, such as that held between Arjuna and Krishna, fall under the concept called the Secondary Clear Light by the Tibetans wherein a “ meaningful dialog takes place along with the perception that tis ecstatic apprehension is occurring to oneself. “
This experience involves a certain state of conceptual lucidity, wherein both the mystical non-self and the mystical self are experienced - simultaneously. "

The Seven Secret Chiefs and The Dark Ages by NotaRajah
(pg 15) pg 21


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Shiva
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06/12/2019 10:43 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

The Dark Ages by NotaRajah

Why are you quoting that destructive NotaRajah? Everyone knows he's dancing away the universe, so nothing he writes will stand up to mental anal-ysis.


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dom
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07/12/2019 1:18 am  

@michaelstayley

Why?
Seems a bit over-the-top to me. Or do you reserve the same fate for anyone who expresses reservations about Crowley?

 

You mean reservations about the reception of  Liber Al don't you?  Interesting that you didn't address the issue direct.   

@kidneyhawk

We are presently awaiting the forthcoming volume on the Paranormal but I see Richard's aim as the exact opposite of the Black Lodge(s).

So as Jamie Barter says he must be proclaiming  Magus status?   He is challenging the Word of the Aeon.    This fast track 'paranormal' technique to attain to the HGA or beyond smacks of a new age confidence trick. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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07/12/2019 2:53 am  
Posted by: @dom

This fast track ... technique

Remember the following:

"The Shortcut to Initiation" (G.'.B.'.G.'. / Choronzon Club).

"Come in here and See the Serpent Eat its Tail" (The Wake World).

"... or any person soever, may claim the grade of Magister Templi simply by taking the Oath of that grade" (One Star in Sight).

Here's the only one that makes sense (to me):

"Initiation is the shortcut Across the Spirals of Evolution."
This one defines the short path and the long path.

"How long is the short path?" asked Eddie Murphy in The Golden Child.

The aged lama answers, "One Lifetime."

"How long is the long path?" asked Eddie.

The lama said, "Ten Thousand Lifetimes!"

The long path is "normal" evolution; the short path is initiation - it involves taking each spiral of the journey in a single jump. Do this a few times and arrive home safely.

Taking the whole quantum in a single leap may end in madness. Please historically review folks who did this in the past 100 years or so.

 


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Michael Staley
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07/12/2019 10:43 am  
Posted by: @dom

So as Jamie Barter says he must be proclaiming  Magus status?   He is challenging the Word of the Aeon.    This fast track 'paranormal' technique to attain to the HGA or beyond smacks of a new age confidence trick. 

In what way is Cole "challenging the Word of the Aeon"?

Why don't you wait for the appearance (or, perhaps more likely, non-appearance) of the "Horus toy" before pronouncing it a "new age confidence trick"? Personally I think that the "Horus toy" and its predecessor, the Appendix, are akin to Billy Bunter's postal order - always in the post but never arriving - but my horrific cynicism might not be justified.


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Michael Staley
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07/12/2019 11:26 am  

@dom

More to the point, perhaps: even if Cole - or anybody else, come to that - were "challenging the Word of the Aeon", what is so reprehensible about that? Is Crowley's word (geddit?) sacrosanct in your eyes?


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dom
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07/12/2019 12:10 pm  

@michealstayley

More to the point, perhaps: even if Cole - or anybody else, come to that - were "challenging the Word of the Aeon", what is so reprehensible about that? 

 

Nothing.  If it's done correctly.  

 

Anyway let's wait and see.....or maybe just let it blow over and move on to more substantial topics. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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07/12/2019 12:19 pm  

@shiva

I like it, you replied without even addressing the subject of carrot childe. 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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07/12/2019 4:39 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Nothing.  If it's done correctly.

How might it be "done correctly"?


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dom
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07/12/2019 4:58 pm  

Michael, let Cole publish the toy details and the rest and then we can come back to this.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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07/12/2019 6:03 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Michael, let Cole publish the toy details and the rest and then we can come back to this.  

What on earth have "the toy details and the rest" to do with the Word of the Aeon?


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wellreadwellbred
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07/12/2019 6:43 pm  

Shiva: "I have no firm opinion about Osho simply because I have not read any of his material, and I am biased in that I consider him to be one in a long line of greasy swamis (Crowley's term) who paraded through (or settled down in) the western world."

Quotes from an interview with Osho's British-born personal physician (who was a member of Osho’s inner circle, who was one of the few people with Osho when he died, and who currently serves as vice-chair of the Osho International Foundation, a Switzerland-based nonprofit which owns all of Bhagwan’s (now called Osho’s) intellectual property and continues to run a vast meditation resort in Pune):

"... Osho’s vision was to help people become themselves. He’s not interested in creating an alternative society. He’s interested in people who go into the normal life and live beautifully[...]. In my opinion, what Einstein was to the 19th century, Osho will be to the 20th century. Instead of being about the outer cosmology, it will be about the inner cosmology. [...] What is a guru? Osho has spoken against gurus and religious leaders, and [against] this game of hierarchy and how God is the ultimate dictator and this endless business of creating middle men. He’s very precisely clear, “My whole effort is to leave you alone with no mediator.” You’re here because of your interest in meditation. You’re not here to be friends with each other. You’re not here to create some group. You’re not here because of each other, you’re here because of yourself. The bridge is single-file. So the whole idea of a cult is absolutely antithetical to everything he presents.

Then [this notion of] a sex cult, I mean … Osho’s understanding is very simple: [Sexuality is] your vital life energy. Very simple. And it’s completely natural. In order to grow spiritually, whatever you wanna call that, you cannot repress sexuality. One thing that he was very, very strong on was giving responsibility to women. That was, in a way, the most beautiful thing.[...]

Also, by the way, we haven’t mentioned the other famous subject: of course, his Rolls-Royces. He thought: In a society obsessed with stuff, I can write, I can produce 600 books on meditation and no one is interested. But Get 93 Rolls-Royces and the world will never forget. Basically, here is this nonwhite male from India who wears a robe and a funny hat, and drives around the city where everyone wears red and doesn’t get paid, they’re all vegetarians with no interest in the family or private property, right in the middle of cowboy country — you could see how the inevitable game unfolds. But by having cars, and driving these cars, and having 93 of them in the country which has the biggest and the best — you know, ‘make America great again’ — if anyone’s going to have the most cars, we have to have the most cars. And here’s the nonwhite guy, he’s got more cars than we have. So it turns into kind of a joke about consumerism. Fantastic." [...]

I know there’s been some controversy about Osho’s death and that you were with him at the time, with some people alleging that there was foul play involved. Can you give your own account of what happened?

So I’m saying to him, “We need proper intensive care now, should I call the cardiologist?” And he says, “No, existence has its timing.” So then you’re a doctor sitting there, like “Well, the guy say no to any further medical intervention and it’s his body and one thing he’s always been quite clear about, everyone has a right to their own body, no one else has any right to interfere.” When people go, “Someone must have killed him,” it’s like, that’s such crap.

(Source: The Cut[.] BEHIND THE SCENES APR. 24, 2018 Bhagwan’s Doctor Gives His Take on Wild Wild Country By Anna Silman - - - https://www.thecut.com/2018/04/bhagwans-doctor-gives-his-take-on-wild-wild-country.html )

As for the rumour that “Someone must have killed him [= Osho]”, Osho's British-born personal physician, (from 20:08 in the following version of OSHO International's 'OSHO: I Leave You My Dream' - - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYe34M2T_g8 ) when asking Osho just before his death on his deathbed "What I should say to you all", was told by Osho to tell you that "... since his days in the marshal's cell in Charlotte, North Carolina, in America, his body has been deterioating. He said that in the Oklahoma jail, they poisoned him with thallium and exposed him to radiation, which we only came to know when the medical experts were consulted. He said they had poisoned him in such a way that would leave no proof. "My crippled body is the work of the Christian fundamentalists in the United States Government," he said. He said he had kept his pain to himself. "But, living in this body has become a hell.""


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Shiva
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07/12/2019 8:44 pm  

WRWB, I just typed a very long reply, and it was wiped out with the "Undo" button doing Nothing. Maybe I'll try again later.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/12/2019 9:27 pm  

Thanks anyway Shiva! To avoid any "wiped out" experience(-s) akin to the one you just mentioned,  I always write, edit and save my postings on a document separate from this site, before any posting from on this site. 


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kidneyhawk
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07/12/2019 11:08 pm  

@michealstayley

More to the point, perhaps: even if Cole - or anybody else, come to that - were "challenging the Word of the Aeon", what is so reprehensible about that? 

 

DOM: Nothing.  If it's done correctly.  

 

Yes, I'd also like to hear more about how it is to done "correctly." Your statement, Dom, has nothing to do with whether or not RTC does anything. You clearly stated that there is a "correct way to challenge the Word of the Aeon." Would you kindly tell us what this is?


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djedi
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07/12/2019 11:30 pm  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

You clearly stated that there is a "correct way to challenge the Word of the Aeon." Would you kindly tell us what this is?

Maybe he means by announcing a new Aeon, and arbitrarily declaring the original Aeon and its word as being subordinate to the heterodox Aeon, which would have its own word(s) and formula(e)? But I can only speculate.

I wonder if, thousands of years from now, some dionysian monks will go trundling around the black beaches of sludge seas, recounting the great Thelemic heresies.


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kidneyhawk
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07/12/2019 11:39 pm  

Djedi-

The thing is...in his recent booklet, RTC has not remotely suggested that he is a Magus, announcing a New Aeon or anything like that. His basic premise is that the Aeon of Horus is just beginning to gather wind and get off the ground. He looks at some trends and realities which seem to reflect this and suggests the Aeon of Horus will play its own significant role in the evolution of the human being. He then hints at his own discovery in this direction.

Crowley, of course, spoke of how Magi would arise after him (WITHIN the Aeon of Horus). They would proclaim their own word but those words would be in harmony with his own, for he was the first of the Horusian Magi. 

The idea of challenging the Word of the Aeon (and doing so "correctly") comes from Dom alone.


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Shiva
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08/12/2019 12:28 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 I always write, edit and save my postings on a document separate from this site, before any posting from on this site. 

Right. I've been there and done that. The new software is so smooth that I felt such precautions were not necessary.

What I wanted to say, cut down here to its minimum is ...

All gurus, systems, and Orders, including Osho, Scientology, EST, OTO, GD, etc, are based on a philosophy or curriculum that sounds wonderful. They even provide techniques that work, for a lesser or greater period of time. But none of them have a technique or practice that leads to "liberation." That has to be accomplished by the individual aspirant, in a self-reliant state.

Whatever happens in these Outer Orders is dependent on who's running the circus and what the do. That's all.

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Yes, I'd also like to hear more about how it is to done "correctly."

Um, this is the Examples of The Black Lodge thread. I believe these quotes are leaking in from one of the many RTC threads.

In any case ... Of course it has to be "done correctly," or it won't work. Since this Aeon Word thing is performed by a Magus, it's hardly possible to define "how to do it," or to even judge if anyone has done it "correctly" or if they have failed miserably ... except maybe to wait a looonngg time and see if they were right. Nobody posting here has that time alloted to them; it'll have to be our offspring's great grand-children (or further down the timeline) who can begin to make such judgements.

(More RTC analysis takes place; more off-topic discussion follows). Are we, or any one of us, now questioning whether RTC is playing Black Lodge?


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kidneyhawk
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08/12/2019 12:38 am  

Shiva,

Not sure if you are understanding what I was asking Dom or if you just glossed over the sundry related posts and are commenting in general regarding the particular. 

I'm not asking how one CORRECTLY utters a word. I am asking Dom what he is on about with stating that it is OK to CHALLENGE a/the Word of an Aeon IF it (the CHALLENGING) is done "correctly." 

 

 

 


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kidneyhawk
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08/12/2019 12:39 am  

(More RTC analysis takes place; more off-topic discussion follows). Are we, or any one of us, now questioning whether RTC is playing Black Lodge?

Bear in mind, it is our friend Dom who suggested that RTC might be an example of this Black Lodge business...hence, our present digression, if that is what it is.

 


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Shiva
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08/12/2019 1:37 am  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Bear in mind, it is our friend Dom who suggested that RTC might be an example of this Black Lodge business...hence, our present digression, if that is what it is.

No, in that case it is not a digression. It means we are getting down to business in the here-and-now, in relation to a proposition that is before us, right now.

Like my ignorance of Osho's philosophy (although I watched the Oregon circus on TV and read about it in the papers), I am not in a position to start impeachment, er, proceedings against RTC without reading his book. Make that book(s), since two volumes are forthcoming, maybe, next annum. On the surface, he does not appear to be making a lot of (any?) money off his efforts. If, at any time, it becomes apparent that he is applying spiritual force toward material ends, then I will sign the petition being sent to the Inquisition.

So far, although it's been a grand game of hyper-hype and bewildering puzzles, I have not yet seen indications requiring The Black Lodge label.

 


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dom
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08/12/2019 2:12 am  

@kidneyhawk and Michaelstayley

 

I concede that if Cole says he accepts the Aeon of Horus..... therefore in that respect he would appear not to be  a Black Lodger yes.

However there are two puzzling factors at work.  One, his controversial statements  (on top of his previous attempts to 'prove' that Liber Al was a calculated fabrication) that the Aeon of Horus would've happened without AC and that AC's Libers were inadequate (?) strongly suggests that his elevated (or self-aggrandizing?) stance is one of  'move over Crowley I'll do a better job and explain it all to the people instead (and by the way I've condensed all of your inadequate Libers into a simple method of insta-Illumination via a 'Horus toy')'.    

This all suggests that he is challenging/advancing/augmenting the singular Word of the Aeon of Horus does it not?   Maybe he is part of that process and his methods are sound.  Like I said to Michael earlier I can't really discuss it any further until the secret 'toy'/method is released...………..  but why entice and then defensively hold back the info?   Is that right i.e. correct?

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
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08/12/2019 1:59 pm  

Shiva: "... none of them [All gurus, systems, and Orders] have a technique or practice that leads to "liberation." That has to be accomplished by the individual aspirant, in a self-reliant state.

Whatever happens in these Outer Orders is dependent on who's running the circus and what the[y] do. That's all."

Amen to that, which does not appear to be contradicted by the already mentioned quote from Osho's British-born personal physician, about said Osho: 

"... Osho’s vision was to help people become themselves. He’s not interested in creating an alternative society. [...] “My whole effort is to leave you alone with no mediator.” You’re here [adhering to Osho’s vision] because of your interest in meditation. You’re not here to be friends with each other. You’re not here to create some group. You’re not here because of each other, you’re here because of yourself. The bridge is single-file."

(The statement about the bridge being single-file according to Osho's vision, appears to correspond to AC's A.'.A.'., where "... members officially only know those directly above and below in the chain of instruction (source: A∴A∴ - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4 ).") 


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Shiva
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08/12/2019 6:13 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I concede that if Cole says he accepts the Aeon of Horus.....

This is the same as accepting dogma. The Aeon of Horus is a human, mental fabrication, just like the astrology and mythology it is based on.

I have not yet accepted that Liber AL was a conscious, mental fabrication on Crowley's part, or even that The Aeon of Horus does not closely approximate the prevailing conditions in our world. But frankly, Osiris, Horus, Thoth, and all those other "gods" were men, Their histories have been refined and embellished, resulting in mythopoeia ("myth making"). Says so in the scriptures.

Posted by: @dom

This all suggests that he is challenging/advancing/augmenting the singular Word of the Aeon of Horus does it not?

Not.

Posted by: @dom

I can't really discuss it any further until the secret 'toy'/method is released.

Right. Sound thinking. Impeccable logic.

Posted by: @dom

but why entice and then defensively hold back the info?

Marketing. Drag it out - gain "name recognition" as listed by yourself. A history of game playing. Pulling your chain. Take your choice.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Amen to that, which does not appear to be contradicted by the already mentioned quote from Osho's British-born personal physician, about said Osho

Said physician's words may be interesting, but they are hearsay. Plus, said doc was a member of "The Inner Circle." We would have had to have been there to know the truth of anything ...

"Let him credit nothing that does not lie within the realm of his own experience."
- Liber E or O, or some other vowel.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

He’s not interested in creating an alternative society.

But he did, anyway, didn't he (Oregon Ranch)? Then the established Establishment of neighbors and righteous indignants (not to be confused with Ignant) busted up the circus and ran Osho out of town. There were terrible tales of atrocious acts performed by people who were "becoming themselves" at said Oregon Ranch. It really didn't go to well. But who am I to say? I don't even own one rolls Royce.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

“My whole effort is to leave you alone with no mediator.”

Good. Very idealistic. Very True. Too bad "he" could not provide the inner link that can only be established by the individual aspirant ... after (self) graduation.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"The bridge is single-file."

Right. So how many people crossed that Rainbow Bridge out of the hundreds or thousands who attended said Ranch? Or attended Osho elsewhere?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The statement about the bridge being single-file according to Osho's vision, appears to correspond to AC's A.'.A.'.,

His vision (one on one) does not correspond to herds of people engaged in outer order antics on a Ranch.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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08/03/2020 4:14 pm  

Shiva: "If your point is that he's really wealthy (not super-rich yet) and a "good" guy as well, you will note that is said, "I have never known ...," not It Is Impossible ...

His [Michael Alan singer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Alan_Singer ] brief Wiki_Biography sounds great. I see no red flags of black lodgeness. To make a reasonable judgement in his case, one would need to read all his books, then get on a plane or a boat or a goat (depending on one's venue) and go to his Temple and meet him."

 

"I always understood that spiritual and material wealth were incommensurable." (Chapter 17, Confessions of Aleister Crowley.)

Is it always the case that spiritual and material wealth are incommensurable, or are there examples of non Black Lodge individuals having both spiritual wealth and material wealth?

 

"The fact is that (as my brother-in-law, Gerald Kelly, once told me, with astounding insight) I was the most religious man that he had ever met. It is the inmost truth. The instinct was masked for a long time [...] It only broke out at a subsequent period in any recognizable form. But when it did so, it became the axis of my being. As a matter of fact, even in these early days, my real need was spiritual satisfaction ..." (Chapter 9, Confessions of Aleister Crowley.)

This is the American spirit, to count and compare instead of being content with spiritual satisfaction. This is what is meant by the Scripture, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

This spirit is at the root of all modern attempts at standardization of attainment and it leads directly to every kind of foul play, falsehood, cheating and controversy. [...]

It is hard to prophesy the issue of this tendency, but one can see already that the chivalry of sport is following that of arms into oblivion." (Chapter 35, Confessions of Aleister Crowley.)

Does "... the American spirit, to count and compare instead of being content with spiritual satisfaction.", really lead directly to every kind of foul play, falsehood, cheating and controversy?


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ignant666
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08/03/2020 4:29 pm  

What AC refers to as "the American spirit" is what is now more generally known as "late capitalism".

The UK, and Europe, were, in AC's early life, largely still dominated by the hereditary aristocracy and landed gentry with whom AC (aspirationally) identified, who scorned mere money, especially if it was earned in "trade" rather than by land-rents.

The US had no hereditary aristocracy, and the Civil War upended the main effort to establish a class of indolent land-rent "aristocrats". So the "go ahead" capitalist spirit defined attitudes among the upper reaches of American society with whom AC spent most of his time in America.

His only contact with poor, working-class, or non-white Americans came when he was hiring prostitutes and/or being sodomized by "rough trade".


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Shiva
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10/03/2020 1:40 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Is it always the case that spiritual and material wealth are incommensurable, or are there examples of non Black Lodge individuals having both spiritual wealth and material wealth?

No examples come to me or my mind. We can cite Yellow-White examples who have lotsa money (probably not in the 1% or thirty big-moguls).

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Does "... the American spirit, to count and compare instead of being content with spiritual satisfaction.", really lead directly to every kind of foul play, falsehood, cheating and controversy?

The American Spirit is basically materialistic. It included giving Indians blankets infected with smallpox (bio weapon alert). This Spirit is not confined to America. It is individuals who seek spiritual stability in an uncertain worlds, and it is individuals who pull triggers, steal old people's money, have sex with children, and get the swell idea to distribute free blankets. Assigning blame to any country, culture, or religion is just an excuse to embarrass one's enemies.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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10/07/2020 10:38 pm  

wrwb (that is, me): 

"... What about AC's Thelema, and his The Book of the Law at the core of it, which appears to mention child sacrifice and child slaying: 

BOTL Chapter 3: "12. Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child. 13. But not now. 14. Ye shall see that hour, o blessed Beast, and thou the Scarlet Concubine of his desire! 15. Ye shall be sad thereof. [...] 43. Let the Scarlet Woman beware! If pity and compassion and tenderness visit her heart; if she leave my work to toy with old sweetnesses; then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child [...]."

Within AC's The Book of the Law (Chapter 2, verse 49 & 52) are mentioned both that "Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs.", due to one RHK, and that the direful judgments of this RHK is to be expected if "the ritual be not ever unto" one Nuit. Within this book (Chapter 3, verse 3 and 46) this RHK is also mentioned with the following self definitions:

"3. Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them.", and "46. I am the warrior Lord of the Forties: the Eighties cower before me, & are abased. I will bring you to victory & joy: I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!" 

This RHK's just mentioned selfdefinitions (as "... the Warrior Lord of the Forties: ...", and as "... I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. ..." et cetera), and this RHK's just mentioned manifest vengeance and child slaying ( = "... then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child [...]."), and this RHK's just mentioned direful judgments, are they to be understood in only symbolic ways, and not in literal ways?

A purely symbolic understanding can be a comfortable option for a reader of AC's The Book of the Law, with respect to any aspect[-s] of the RHK mentioned within it, outside of this reader's comfort zone."

(Source: AC on Thelemic Catholicism and Islam - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/109818/ )

 

Shiva:

"Thank you for a series of quotes. The child to be sacrificed in the magician him- or her-self.

The black magic deep state sorcerer brothers and sisters of The Left Hand Path of The Black Lodge (yeah, them) would interpret these lines ipso facto prima facie and starting killing children.

The white magic natural state magician brothers and sisters of The Right Hand Path of The White Lodge (yeah, us) would read Book 4 - (Part III) - and interpret these lines as an injunction to slay one's self as described also in The Book of Lies, which must be thoroughly understood before any adept or twit gets to understand anything in Aleister Crowley's, The Book of the Law, which is the basis of his Religion called Thelema that he made up and lied about all kinds of things. (See: The RTC Exposures)."

(Source: AC on Thelemic Catholicism and Islam  -  -  -  https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/109820/ )

 

With respect to Liber CDXV - Opus Lutetianum or The Paris Working (A∴A∴ Publication in Class AB), Crowley's opinion was that a portion of it strongly recommending slaying a (preferably willing) girl after violating her (to "... attain the summit of Magical Art."), represents false or grossly defective material from some interfering evil, giving instructions "... of the character of black, or at least grey, magic."  

(Source: Liber CDXV - Opus Lutetianum or The Paris Working - Ritual Murder? - - -  https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/5802/  )

 

In Crowley’s ‘Bartzabel Working’ on May 9, 1910, he attempts to discern:

"Firstly, that the Kingdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit may be established in the Aeon.", "Secondly, that we may succeed in that particular design of which it is not lawful to speak, even before Thee." and "Thirdly, that we may have power to help the weak. [...]

Question 1:

How shall the kingdom of the Aeon be established?

B. I may not speak this thing save thou give sign of 3rd Vault. I’ll tell thee the sign that was given thee secretly in the 3rd Vault. [...]

B. I’ve given you the sign. The Aeon shall be reestablished when the slain child is placed on the Altar of Ra Hoor Khuit. [...] 

CM. I am …(etc.). Speak again regarding sacrifice to Ra Hoor Khuit.

B. I know not.

CM. The slain child.

B. I have lied.

CM. Tell truth.

B. Can’t.

CM. I charge thee.

B. Ask again.

CM. Who is the child?

B. Ask again.

CM. (repeats question)

B. He shall be the child of [Luna] and Saturn. He shall bear on his forehead sevenfold [star] of midnight. He shall be slain as was spoken in that place which was known only to thee and one other. [...]

B. He shall be sought near a stream of water running between two mountains. The child is yet unborn. He shall be the child of those who have sought love in the valley of the [stars], sojourned in a cave, and been on summit of Abiegnus. [...]

CM. Then this sacrifice is to come?

B. Yes.

[...] CM. And when shall the sacrifice be accomplished? Thou dost lie saying soon.

B. It shall be thrice accomplished.

CM. When will the second time be?

B. 2nd year, 3rd month, 22nd day, 9th hour.

(Crowley notes: “Time 2 years 3 months 22 days 9 hours from now, i.e., about end July 1912.)

CM. And the third sacrifice?

B. 130th year, 6th [moon], 2nd day, 4th hour, 8th hour, and 12th hour—these things will be fulfilled. Let me go.

(Crowley notes: “The third sacrifice is distant, and matters nothing to us now.”) [...]

(CM threatens and cautions B to speak truth)

CM. Will the particular design succeed, etc.?

B. Yes.

(Crowley notes: “The ‘particular design’ may be identical with this 2nd sacrifice; for the 7 stars are on (or near) the horizon in that secret place.) [...]

Third question re: helping the weak. “We shall obtain power to aid the weak; in what manner? Give us a sign.”

B. Thou shalt take those who are fitted—and they shall aid the weak.

CM. What sign shall be given unto us?

B. A sword and a ring. Ring = silver snake with ruby eyes around an opal.

CM. Thou liest regarding snake because silver snake is subject of my thoughts. Regarding sign of sword, explain.

B. A sword of destruction and sacrifice.

CM. How dies that aid the weak?

B. By slaying them.

CM. When shall sign of sword be given?

B. 17 days, 303 days, and then 560th day from now.

(Crowley notes: “The Sign of the sword—17 days, i.e., May 25, and dates in 1911.”)

CM. When shall sign of ring be given?

B. After 3 [moons].

(Crowley notes: “The Sign of the Ring—before 3 weeks, i.e., Sunday, May 29.”)"

(Source: The Archidoxical Order of Magi[:] Bartzabel and the New Aeon[.] A Martial Prophecy[.] Crowley’s record of his performance of the famous ‘Bartzabel Working’ on May 9, 1910ev; with his notes and editorial comments by Frater Zephyros. - - - - http://www.archidox.org/Bartzabel%20and%20the%20New%20Aeon.htm )

Does Bartzabel's just quoted utterings above about "when the slain child is placed on the Altar of Ra Hoor Khuit" being the sign of the Aeon [re-]established, and about A sword of destruction and sacrifice aiding the weak by slaying them, represent examples of destructive interference from the black lodge?

 

Also, does Crowley about Dec. 14. 1914 coming to the conclusion that B was Lord of New York, and Friday 1st January [1915] concluding that Mercury is Lord of New York City’ and beginning invocations of him using the ritual in Liber Israfel sub figura LXIV., indicate that the Bartzabel invoked in his Bartzabel Working’ on May 9, 1910, is identical with B "Lord of New York", and Mercury "Lord of New York City", invoked by AC from around the end of 1914 and the beginning of 1915? 

(Sources: 23.9.14 Volume I, Number VI. THE VOICE OF FIRE - - - http://the-voice-of-fire.blogspot.com/2014/09/volume-i-number-vi.html , and Liber LXXIII The Urn The Diary of a Magus - - - http://www.tomegatherion.co.uk/theurn.pdf  )


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Shiva
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11/07/2020 6:43 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

and been on summit of Abiegnus.

7=4. The slaying of the Adeptus Exemptus is being described. If these quotes are from The Urn, or The Urn period (timespan), then perhaps it is the slaying of VVVVV. Liber Israfel, the Invocation of thoth, is proper to Chokmah. Since it would take a Magus to establish the new aeon, this all sounds like the burning up of the dust of the Magister into the ash of the Logos.

I have two very basic questions ...

1. WTF is a Magus, or a Magus-candidate at least, doing calling up Bartzabel, the Spirit of Mars, who is a Demon? Shades of Goetic horror!  A Magus, The Word of the Aeon no less, should be able to get his data straight and his "aeon" grounded through Wisdom (Chokmah), or at least Intuition (Binah).

2. This question is a statement. You (anyone) read the statement, then if you have a question, please speak write up ...

STATEMENT

This Bartzabel, child-slaying demon reminds me of his relative, IHVH. The scenario portrayed is reminiscent of those black magi in Sumeria who were trafficking with asuras (reptilian demons). If you want a stele to seal in locked glass for proof to the world, or at least your relatives, try this one ...

Chaos Monster and Sun God

Should the gestalt (the grasp of the whole picture) of this operation suggest the actual slaying of an individual (child or no), then we're back to Abrahamic IHVH and the Golden Calf of Ba'al. These are/were/will always be Demons (asuras). It's great to demonstrate control over demons. Anyone will be tested in this before full admission to the Heliopolis hotel. But for a Magus, who should be operating at Atmic (atomic) level, to call up a blind force that self-admits to lying, in order to establish the new aeon sounds a bit like that old black magic that we gno so well.

And one complex question: So what? Crowley talked to a demon (I missed who was doing the demon's voice), who recommended the usual biblical practice of child sacrifice. Dates were given. Do it three times. So what? This is a transcript of the usual garbled workings with unruly demons. Did AC do any of this? Was it taken seriously?

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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12/07/2020 5:42 pm  

Why did AC not invoke RHK directly, when he in his ‘Bartzabel Working’ on May 9, 1910, attempts to discern:

"Firstly, that the Kingdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit may be established in the Aeon.", and AC's first question in this working is:

"Question 1:

How shall the kingdom of the Aeon be established?"??? 

Why not ask RHK directly, about how the Kingdom of this RHK's may be established in the Aeon???

 

Also, with respect to the black lodge, does it tend to be more litteral and less symbolic in its general approach???

 

And, also, does the black lodge benefit more from dealing with demons, than the white lodge does in doing the same???


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Shiva
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12/07/2020 10:32 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Why not ask RHK directly ...?

Well, see, it's like this: Horus (the seemingly prominent part of Ra-Hoor) is Mars. So AC, in his Goetic persona. invokes Barbells, the "spirit of Mars," in order to get hard data instead of idealistic thinking.

RHK spoke to the holy chosen one through his diplomat, Aiwass. Why not ask Aiwass, one's own HGA, he who started all this in the first place? Or how about tuning in to VVVVV.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Also, with respect to the black lodge, does it tend to be more litteral and less symbolic in its general approach???

They do not paint themselves black or live in lonely black towers that are visible to common folk, but their magical records are kept in ink. Black Ink means profit. Red ink means loss. The bottom line" must always be Black.

It must be understood that there is no single, coherent Black Lodge. For one thing, there is a major division in the illusionary Deep State that is easily identified as The White Dragon Society (UK) and The Black Dragon Society (China). There is a struggle for which will become dominant. Since the metaphorically diabolical Black Lodge is based on separate and separated individuals (ego-dominated), these two don't get along well these days. You can watch the surface ripples in the daily news. Note that UK + USA = 93, so that's the first half of the equation. China is a police state; that's the the part you shouldn't attack.

They are said to be in need for cash, or digits, and the antics of the two sides can be seen or read in the daily news paper-site-smartphone. In fact, you could have followed it (more slowly) back in the time of The Crusades. It is the old East versus west thing. The degree, Knight of the East and West, is a big deal if properly understood.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

does the black lodge benefit more from dealing with demons, than the white lodge does in doing the same???

There are no demons. They are manifestations in the Hall of Hallucinations (Astral plane). In that hall, they are real enough to alter one's perception of reality. On this level, and thus in the next-door physical plane (that is shaped by these hallucinations), the self-centered manipulation of matter is stronger, and yes they benefit more in wealth and power. They apply spiritual power to material ends.

The White Lodge, by definition, uses spiritual power to benefit the whole. If the whole benefits, then the separated ego does not benefit, except as a part of the whole.

The denser the realm (down here, for example), the better the ego operates. The lighter the plane (up there - rarefied), well, that's what the ego is defending itself againt ... loss of a separate self.


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dom
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12/07/2020 11:28 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 

And, also, does the black lodge benefit more from dealing with demons, than the white lodge does in doing the same???

'Benefit' how?

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
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13/07/2020 11:21 am  

Dom: "'Benefit' how?"

Any magical act that doesn’t  aim at the discovery and alignment with the Will, the aim of The Great Work in the Thelema of AC, is according to the latter black magick. But as long as a magical procedure involving a demon or demons is in service of the aim of The Great Work in the Thelema of AC, it should be fine.

That is, the white lodge can benefit from dealing with 'demons', for reasons pertaining to the aim of The Great Work in the Thelema of AC. 

And that is, the black lodge can benefit from dealing with 'demons', for reasons not pertaining to the aim of The Great Work in the Thelema of AC.

 

"HGA and Black Magick

Crowley felt that attaining Knowledge and Conversation was so important, that he staked the claim that any other magical operation was, in a sense, evil. In Book 4 (Ch. 21) he explains:

As was said at the opening of the second chapter, the Single Supreme Ritual is the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. It is the raising of the complete man in a vertical straight line...Any other operation is black magic...If the magician needs to perform any other operation than this, it is only lawful in so far as it is a necessary preliminary to That One Work.

He then softens his position somewhat:

There are, however many shades of grey. It is not every magician who is well armed with theory. Perhaps one such may invoke Jupiter, with the wish to heal others of their physical ills. This sort of thing is harmless, or almost so. It is not evil in itself. It arises from a defect of understanding. Until the Great Work has been performed, it is presumptuous for the magician to pretend to understand the universe, and dictate its policy.

The implication is that only magick devoted to the spiritual evolution of the individual and their attunement to the global and cosmic Will is honorable and in line with the ultimate goals of Thelema. Any magick that is self-serving or results-oriented is regarded as impure and in contradiction to the necessary evolution of the species."

(Source: Holy Guardian Angel From Thelemapedia - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Holy_Guardian_Angel )


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wellreadwellbred
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13/07/2020 1:22 pm  

Shiva: 

"The White Lodge, by definition, uses spiritual power to benefit the whole. If the whole benefits, then the separated ego does not benefit, except as a part of the whole."

 

Scientologists believe in striving for the “greater good” of mankind and the universe, and scientologists aspire to dedicate themselves to the well-being of others over their own personal interests 

So your position is, Shiva, that the Church of Scientology despite officially professing aims akin to the aim[-s] of the white lodge, does not (to quote words used earlier by you in this thread on this page): 

"... have a technique or practice that leads to "liberation." That has to be accomplished by the individual aspirant, in a self-reliant state.

Whatever happens in these Outer Orders [like said church] is dependent on who's running the circus and what the[-y] do. That's all." ???


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Shiva
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13/07/2020 7:23 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Until the Great Work has been performed, it is presumptuous for the magician to pretend to understand the universe, and dictate its policy.

Good quote. Good show. Great insight. Sound advice.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Any magick that is self-serving or results-oriented is regarded as impure and in contradiction to the necessary evolution of the species.

This is clear enough.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Scientologists believe in striving for the “greater good” of mankind and the universe, and scientologists aspire to dedicate themselves to the well-being of others over their own personal interests 

This also is clear enough. Too bad it is meaningless, because not many (if any) Scientists [sic] get around to accomplishing the Great Work so that they can "pretend to understand the universe, and dictate its policy."

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

So your position is, Shiva, that the Church of Scientology despite officially professing aims akin to the aim[-s] of the white lodge, does not (to quote words used earlier by you in this thread on this page)

Yes.

Every organization that appears before the publick gaze
has words aplenty to show how they pass their daze
helping the world to get better and better, like a rocket
while slipping the power and the cash into their pocket

It doesn't matter what any org or solo twit says, because they all lie. They all "make things up." It is what they do that counts, and this must be measured, not by single acts, but by their direction over time. Two or three terrestrial annums will do to catch their drift.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Whatever happens in these Outer Orders [like said church] is dependent on who's running the circus and what the[-y] do. That's all." ???

Why are there three "?s" after my misspelled statement? Practically applied, it means church members determine how the universe works, and dictate policy therefrom, by what they are told by their "superior(s)." The person at the top determines direction for the whole. The church enforces this by dictatorship and punishment. "Mind Control" in its most blatant form, is administered and programmed through electrical-cognitive instruments (e-meter). That's all. What else do you want?

 


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wellreadwellbred
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13/07/2020 10:45 pm  

Shiva: Why are there three "?s" after my misspelled statement? 

The three questionmarks are ther to indicate that my question is if [the following words quoted from you:], pertain to that the Church of Scientology does not [the following words quoted from you: >>>>>- - - - - - >>>>>] 

"... have a technique or practice that leads to "liberation." That has to ... [etc.]"

Where have I missspelled your statement? Your said statement was misspelled by you like this: 

"Whatever happens in these Outer Orders is dependent on who's running the circus and what the[missing letter] do. That's all."


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The HGA of a Duck
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14/07/2020 12:34 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Scientologists

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Church of Scientology

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Scientology

wtf

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Shiva
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14/07/2020 6:10 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Where have I missspelled your statement? Your said statement was misspelled by you like this: 

You did not screw up the spelling, or the grammar, or whatever. I did.

"my misspelled statement"

Saint Duck: Note that Frater Bred, Well, often runs topics through the Science-tology filter. There are other filters, too. But the elRon filters catch the most dust.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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15/07/2020 1:32 am  
Posted by: @shiva

Frater Bred, Well, often runs topics through the Science-tology filter

I see, not the filter I'd want to use but fair enough. It was just an excuse to quickly knock together a bad AC meme.


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Shiva
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15/07/2020 2:02 am  
Posted by: @duck

I see, not the filter I'd want to use but fair enough.

It is "fair enough," you see, because this thread  is about Examples of the Black Lodge. Get it?


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