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Anonymous
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30/06/2015 11:41 pm  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdifW7S6nCA

A great KJ concert as good as ever.  During the track "Exorcism" Jaz quotes from Liber Al around 18m05s in.


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jamie barter
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01/07/2015 5:16 pm  

What exactly is it he is supposed to quote here, david?  It would have been helpful if you could have supplied that information, as I don’t know whether it is the poor quality of the recording or my means of playback or because it’s the sort of thing my late father used to dismiss with a “what the hell’s all that godawful racket?”, but I cannot make out the words myself & may not be the only one to be unable to do so.  Maybe your time reference might be slightly out (as well)? 

Also, I understood previously you were not a particular Jaz/ Killing Joke aficionado - or are you playing games with us again, possibly?  Please would you be so good as to clarify, so that I may be able to go to sleep undisturbed from now on.

Norma N Joy Conquest


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ignant666
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01/07/2015 6:37 pm  

The words "wine and strange drugs" are intelligible amid the din about :30 after the time-mark david indicates in this non-Thelemic performance. I say "non-Thelemic performance" because david has informed us many times that performances cannot be Thelemic; he is thusfar silent as to whether musical compositions or other artforms get his imprimatur.

Regardless of whether or not this performance is, or any performance can be, Thelemic, KJ have not aged well based on the ponderous rendition of "Wardance" and the other bits i watched. The "Alice Cooper In A Mao Suit" look on Jaz is interesting.


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Anonymous
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01/07/2015 9:22 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
What exactly is it he is supposed to quote here, david?  It would have been helpful if you could have supplied that information, as I don’t know whether it is the poor quality of the recording or my means of playback or because it’s the sort of thing my late father used to dismiss with a “what the hell’s all that godawful racket?”, but I cannot make out the words myself & may not be the only one to be unable to do so.  Maybe your time reference might be slightly out (as well)? 

Also, I understood previously you were not a particular Jaz/ Killing Joke aficionado - or are you playing games with us again, possibly?  Please would you be so good as to clarify, so that I may be able to go to sleep undisturbed from now on.

Norma N Joy Conquest

18m10s to 18m20s and Ignant666 reported correctly.

Yes I am a KJ fan and have been for a long time.


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Anonymous
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01/07/2015 9:33 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
The words "wine and strange drugs" are intelligible amid the din about :30 after the time-mark david indicates in this non-Thelemic performance. I say "non-Thelemic performance" because david has informed us many times that performances cannot be Thelemic; he is thusfar silent as to whether musical compositions or other artforms get his imprimatur.

Regardless of whether or not this performance is, or any performance can be, Thelemic, KJ have not aged well based on the ponderous rendition of "Wardance" and the other bits i watched. The "Alice Cooper In A Mao Suit" look on Jaz is interesting.

I was too busy with the RH thread to answer you realize that I left that question unanswered.

You mean KJ gave a bad performance by saying they haven't "aged well"?  I totally disagree.

There's a good interview with Jimmy Page talking about how he is a big KJ fan.  It's somewhere on youtube.  I also like the fact that Kate Bush was also a big KJ fan.

The answer about whether art can be "Thelemic" concerns the use of  the term "Thelemic" in it's form as adjective.  Obviously my poem, recently submitted about RH is Thelemic  because I use imagery from Liber Al.  Likewise KJ wrote "the fall of because" well yeah, of course that is Thelemic art.  If someone paints Nuit leaning over a winged globe with imagery from world war one and scenes of tumultuous events from the 20th century superimposed then hey, I hold my hands up, it's Thelemic.

What I don't agree with is when people e9who are involved with Thelemic practice) personally identify with a piece of art, which provides them with their "religious experience" and they then claim that that artist is therefore "Thelemic".  Then again it is possible to nit pick and argue that all art made after 1904 is Thelemic because that was when the Word was spoken.  There's  a causality problem with that though as Chuck Berry said, "nothing under the Sun is original" e.g. Stravisnky or Herman Hesse didn't just appear out of thin air.  They were probably steeped in the history of music and literature respectively.   

 


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ignant666
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01/07/2015 9:58 pm  

An interesting response from david; of course those benighted "people [(]who are involved with Thelemic practice) [who] personally identify with a piece of art, which provides them with their 'religious experience' and they then claim that that artist is therefore 'Thelemic''' include old AC himself, see my reply to david in the recent thread commemorating Ornette Coleman's death:

"ignant666" wrote:
[C]an works of art be "Thelemic"? If so, what would make a work "Thelemic"?
Would this require what we might call programmatic content that mentions AC and/or Thelema, a la Graham Bond, Raul Seixas, John Zorn and innumerable metal and industrial bands, or the paintings of Xul Solar [as david implies in his recent post here: "Obviously my poem, recently submitted about RH is Thelemic  because I use imagery from Liber Al"] , or might the "Thelemic" qualities of a work be manifest more as a matter of content that explodes hidebound structures, exemplifies freedom or will, or in other ways manifests the "93 current" [...]? [...]
A bit of a trick question, of course, at least for those who consider AC himself an authority on that Thelema stuff he made up.
The latter is clearly the answer, or how would we explain AC's decision to include Paul Gaugin on the calendar of Thelemic Saints in the Gnostic Mass? Gaugin's work contains no references to spirituality, occult matters, etc.- despite this, AC considered him a Master and Saint as a result of his life and art.

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Anonymous
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01/07/2015 10:37 pm  

Yes the Gaugin issue is  a good point.  Did AC also put Wagner on the list?  Is Gaugin's work Thelemic because AC (inventor of Thelma) wanted him on the list?  I guess so yeah. What about AC'S paintings?  Haha yeah of course they are "Thelemic".  I've pointed out the similarities between Otto Dix's work and AC'S art.  That's just my opinion though, you may disagree.   

I think that this "how do we know if a piece of art is Thelemic?" may be a circular semantic game.  If poet (or any artist is early warning radar) and art mirrors the culture that it is made in and the artist a transmitter of the unseen forces at work and the art was made after 1904 then, yes it's Thelemic.....I guess.               


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Los
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01/07/2015 11:00 pm  
"david" wrote:
I think that this "how do we know if a piece of art is Thelemic?" may be a circular semantic game.  If poet (or any artist is early warning radar) and art mirrors the culture that it is made in and the artist a transmitter of the unseen forces at work and the art was made after 1904 then, yes it's Thelemic.....I guess.

Well, if that's all it means for art to be "Thelemic," then there's pretty much no art that one *can't* be considered Thelemic, which makes the label awfully useless.


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ignant666
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01/07/2015 11:17 pm  

A remarkably gracious post, david, that justifies the faith that many have shown in your sincerity and good heart.

Indeed, while we might argue (as you now have) that any art created after the destruction of the world by fire in 1904 is thus thereby inherently "Thelemic", we might find it useful to focus on those art-works that especially embody "light, life, love, and liberty", and "force and fire", as being "Thelemic", as Los so helpfully suggests.

Tastes will of course vary, horses for courses, etc. but, as a Master once said, "Beauty Is A Rare Thing"- "He that hath ears, let him hear" [Luke 8:8]:

https://youtu.be/XCLKhZmIaXw


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Los
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01/07/2015 11:27 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
we might find it useful to focus on those art-works that especially embody "light, life, love, and liberty", and "force and fire", as being "Thelemic", as Los so helpfully suggests.

Well, that's the thing. Any work of art could be argued to express "light, life, love, and liberty." All art involves self-expression in some form or another and all art responds to the age in which it's created in some ways. Those things can all be said to be inherently about the individual or the individual's experience or the creative "Genius," etc.

What it boils down to is that "Thelemic" -- as a label for art -- could arguably be used to describe just about any work of art, which makes it more or less useless as a label. But that's okay. It's at best a minor quibble.


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ignant666
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02/07/2015 3:50 am  
"Los" wrote:
"ignant666" wrote:
we might find it useful to focus on those art-works that especially embody "light, life, love, and liberty", and "force and fire", as being "Thelemic", as Los so helpfully suggests.

Well, that's the thing. Any work of art could be argued to express "light, life, love, and liberty." All art involves self-expression in some form or another and all art responds to the age in which it's created in some ways. Those things can all be said to be inherently about the individual or the individual's experience or the creative "Genius," etc.

What it boils down to is that "Thelemic" -- as a label for art -- could arguably be used to describe just about any work of art, which makes it more or less useless as a label. But that's okay. It's at best a minor quibble.

Granting (once again) that aesthetic judgements are always subject to debate, I wonder what qualities caused AC to pick Wagner and Gaugin as Thelemic Saints?


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Los
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02/07/2015 5:18 am  
"ignant666" wrote:
I wonder what qualities caused AC to pick Wagner and Gaugin as Thelemic Saints?

Well, I suppose he picked Wagner because of Parsifal. The opera had a lot of meaning for Crowley -- you can read my essay on Parsifal and Thelemic "chastity" here. Crowley was likely of the opinion that Wagner had communicated a potent truth through his art, which testifies to his personal Gnosis (remember, the Saints in the Mass are Gnostic Saints, not necessarily Thelemites per se).

As far as Gaugin goes, we don't have to make educated guesses. A quick google search for "Crowley and Gaugin" turns up an extract from Crowley's diaries posted on hermetic.com under Sabazius' site "The Invisible Basilica." You can read it here. The gist is that Crowley was really, really moved by Gaugin's work. He regrets not having met Gaugin when he had the chance.

I could easily think of a dozen others who belong on the list of "saints," aka "people I admire."


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Anonymous
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02/07/2015 8:16 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
A remarkably gracious post, david, that justifies the faith that many have shown in your sincerity and good heart.

Thankyou, I appreciate that.

"ignant666" wrote:
Indeed, while we might argue (as you now have) that any art created after the destruction of the world by fire in 1904 is thus thereby inherently "Thelemic", we might find it useful to focus on those art-works that especially embody "light, life, love, and liberty", and "force and fire", as being "Thelemic", as Los so helpfully suggests.

Yes that's another way to categorize art as Thelemic, if it somehow embodies the principles of Thelema, so many would argue that rebellious rock or punk rock is Thelemic.  Many think it's primitive garbage.  Maybe any protest-song or any contemporary art which tried to break away from the traditions of classical work are Thelemic. 
 
Maybe movies or novels which don't hold back from showing things how they actually are also.  There were bands in the 1960s who talked about embodying "freedom".  I guess the improvisational spontaneity in some jazz emulates this as it doesn't conform to traditional structures.  However some would say that the great symphonic composers embody freedom more so.   

In the 1960s some bands did free concerts as an anti-corporate gesture, although the electricity was probably "borrowed" from the state.  Then again being "anti-corporate" is not necessarily Thelemic.  A lot of bands found their freedom in "strange drugs" and hoped to put that into their art.

The Spice Girls were run-of-the-mill manufactured puppets but they had a basic manifesto of "girl power" which could be said to be Thelemic.    It's a tricky question as the analysis and it's variables are just too complex to come up with a solid definition.


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christibrany
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08/07/2015 1:12 am  

if the spice girls are thelemic then so is femen. which makes no sense. case closed.


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