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Ornette Coleman died 6/11/15 EV  

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ignant666
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11/06/2015 9:13 pm  

I'm not sure how many here will mourn the passing of "free jazz" musician Ornette Coleman as much as do i, but thought his death worthy of comment here.
A titanic and undoubted Master and "leader of a school of thought" has passed. His music is very hard to imagine outside the context of the current Aeon, and arguably more Thelemic than most AC-invoking "metal" or "scary industrial" music.
For any who are curious, or who respect this man as I do, wkcr.org will be broadcasting Ornette 24/7 through 9:30 am 6/17/15EV.


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Anonymous
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12/06/2015 8:51 am  
"ignant666" wrote:
I'm not sure how many here will mourn the passing of "free jazz" musician Ornette Coleman as much as do i, but thought his death worthy of comment here.
A titanic and undoubted Master and "leader of a school of thought" has passed. His music is very hard to imagine outside the context of the current Aeon, and arguably more Thelemic than most AC-invoking "metal" or "scary industrial" music.
For any who are curious, or who respect this man as I do, wkcr.org will be broadcasting Ornette 24/7 through 9:30 am 6/17/15EV.

Now I empathise that you admire this person, that's all fine but how do you determine that a piece of art is "Thelemic"?  What if someone here thinks Coleman just produced uninspiring noise?  It's all subjective.  You may think that this is trivial but it is relevant to the problem that "magicians" have of attributing philosophic validity to things via their own personal experience.  It relates to the justification of flawed belief-systems and falling into the pit of Reason re Liber Al. 

What if I said that I think that Aerosmith are the most "Thelemic" band ever or The Pet Shop Boys or the Anti Nowhere League or Neil Young or The Spice Girls?  You couldn't rationally dispute that in any way whatsoever.  Hopefully I've clarified the error in your understanding of what Thelema is and how you communicate it.


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ignant666
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12/06/2015 9:37 am  

As I know you are the graduate of a reading comprehension course, david, can you let me know where i said Ornette's music is Thelemic, or that such a conclusion (were one to reach it) would not be subjective?
Yes, matters of aesthetic/artistic judgement are subjective; some might indeed hear the work of this Master as "incoherent noise", rather than as exemplifying freedom and intense discipline simultaneously. I'd have to say I feel sorry for such hypothetical persons.


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Anonymous
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12/06/2015 8:26 pm  
"ignant666" wrote:
As I know you are the graduate of a reading comprehension course, david, can you let me know where i said Ornette's music is Thelemic, or that such a conclusion (were one to reach it) would not be subjective?

Around about this part, here;

"ignant666" wrote:
I'm not sure how many here will mourn the passing of "free jazz" musician Ornette Coleman as much as do i, but thought his death worthy of comment here.
A titanic and undoubted Master and "leader of a school of thought" has passed. His music is very hard to imagine outside the context of the current Aeon, and arguably more Thelemic than most AC-invoking "metal" or "scary industrial" music.
For any who are curious, or who respect this man as I do, wkcr.org will be broadcasting Ornette 24/7 through 9:30 am 6/17/15EV.

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ignant666
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12/06/2015 9:33 pm  

david: Apparently your reading comprehension course did not cover the meaning of the word "arguably".

David's objection raises an interesting question: can works of art be "Thelemic"? If so, what would make a work "Thelemic"?
Would this require what we might call programmatic content that mentions AC and/or Thelema, a la Graham Bond, Raul Seixas, John Zorn and innumerable metal and industrial bands, or the paintings of Xul Solar, or might the "Thelemic" qualities of a work be manifest more as a matter of content that explodes hidebound structures, exemplifies freedom or will, or in other ways manifests the "93 current", as one might argue Ornette's body of work does? [note to david: this is a reference to a possible argument, not the making of that argument]
A bit of a trick question, of course, at least for those who consider AC himself an authority on that Thelema stuff he made up.
The latter is clearly the answer, or how would we explain AC's decision to include Paul Gaugin on the calendar of Thelemic Saints in the Gnostic Mass? Gaugin's work contains no references to spirituality, occult matters, etc.- despite this, AC considered him a Master and Saint as a result of his life and art.


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Anonymous
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12/06/2015 10:23 pm  

Too easy to throw in back pedalling accusations here.  Anyway your question as to what makes one piece of art "Thelemic" and another piece of art "not Thelemic"? 

Answer:  "all art is magick"

Aleister Crowley.

I guess that that includes those Chauvet Cave paintings made by primitive man?  Wait, no , that was in a different "aeon".  I'm laughing.

I mean, a common assumption would be that anything jarring, disturbing, dark, creepy, gothic and unsettling would be Thelemic, as Crowley urges us to face our aversions.  That would be a flawed argument.  However go tell the myriad of heavy metal idiots who claim to be interested in Crowley.

"Let the woman be girt with a sword before me" ;


  Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want,
So tell me what you want, what you really really want,
I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want,
So tell me what you want, what you really really want,
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really really really wanna zigazig ha.

If you want my future forget my past,
If you wanna get with me better make it fast,
Now don't go wasting my precious time,
Get your act together we could be just fine

I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want,
So tell me what you want, what you really really want,
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really really really wanna zigazig ha.

If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends (gotta get with my friends)
Make it last forever friendship never ends,
If you wanna be my lover, you have got to give,
Taking is too easy, but that's the way it is.

What do you think about that now you know how I feel,
Say you can handle my love are you for real,
I won't be hasty, I'll give you a try
If you really bug me then I'll say goodbye.

Yo I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want,
So tell me what you want, what you really really want,
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really
really really wanna zigazig ha.

If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends (gotta get with my friends)
Make it last forever friendship never ends,
If you wanna be my lover, you have got to give,
Taking is too easy, but that's the way it is.

So here's a story from A to Z, you wanna get with me you gotta listen carefully,
We got Em in the place who likes it in your face,
we got G like MC who likes it on an
Easy V doesn't come for free, she's a real lady,
and as for me you'll see,
Slam your body down and wind it all around
Slam your body down and wind it all around.

If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends (gotta get with my friends),
Make it last forever friendship never ends,
If you wanna be my lover, you have got to give,
Taking is too easy, but that's the way it is.
If you wanna be my lover, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta,
you gotta, you gotta, slam, slam, slam, slam

Slam your body down and wind it all around.
Slam your body down and wind it all around (uh uh).
Slam your body down and wind it all around.
Slam your body down zigazig ah

If you wanna be my lover.
   


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ignant666
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13/06/2015 12:08 am  

I'm glad to hear you agree with me, to the extent that my reading comprehension abilities enable me to understand you.


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threefold31
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13/06/2015 3:54 am  

Dwtw

Rather than sympathizing with the brief eulogy and respecting it for its true intent, david insists on immediately quibbling. Sorry, but the OP was about the death of a man who is unquestionably a master of his instrument, and who changed the face of jazz and music forever by his lifetime body of work.

Hats off to you, Ornette, for opening people's minds to harmolodic intensities. By doing your will so forcefully, for so long, you serve as a paragon to any and all who are seeking to accomplish the same.

Litlluw
RLG


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Anonymous
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13/06/2015 7:56 am  
"threefold31" wrote:
Dwtw

Rather than sympathizing with the brief eulogy and respecting it for its true intent, david insists on immediately quibbling. Sorry, but the OP was about the death of a man who is unquestionably a master of his instrument, and who changed the face of jazz and music forever by his lifetime body of work.

Hats off to you, Ornette, for opening people's minds to harmolodic intensities. By doing your will so forcefully, for so long, you serve as a paragon to any and all who are seeking to accomplish the same.

Litlluw
RLG

I appreciate that but I hate to break it to you but this is not a jazz music forum.  You're missing the point.  I suggest you carefully read what I wrote.


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ignant666
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13/06/2015 12:39 pm  

See, david, now you are confusing me, what with my puny reading comprehension abilities (I should have realized getting my PhD off a cereal box coupon was a bad idea).
Your post #5 quoted AC as saying that "all Art is Magick" (fixed that for you, as the kids say), so then any great artist is per se a great magician; you leave out where he goes on to say that "There is no more potent means that Art of calling forth true Gods to visible appearance".
Ornette clearly qualifies as such an artist/magician; he is further generally identified as the "leader of a school of thought", free jazz/harmolodic music, identifiable by the subversion of concepts of "key" and conventional harmony, while retaining a melodic lyricism not found in most similar "atonal" musics.
I agree with you that calling music "Thelemic" because it is "jarring, disturbing, dark, creepy, gothic and unsettling" would be an error.
As to Lashtal not being a jazz music forum, neither to my knowledge is The New York Times, which featured Ornette's obituary on its front page.


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threefold31
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13/06/2015 4:05 pm  
"david" wrote:
I appreciate that but I hate to break it to you but this is not a jazz music forum.  You're missing the point.  I suggest you carefully read what I wrote.

Dwtw

No, it's not a jazz forum, but my kudos would apply equally well to Dylan, Picasso or Einstein. Each of them is a giant in their field precisely because what they did was revolutionary and idiosyncratic, as their followed their muse. My appreciation of Ornette, in the context of the OP and your reply, is that as far as an outsider can tell, he was 'doing his will'. To me, he's an excellent example of that precept.

One might say for the sake of argument that in regards to Thelema there is a continuum of people, from those who don't do their will at all, to those who do nothing but. The middle ground is difficult to parse, but the extremes are easy. Some people are sheep who simply follow the herd, and others are striking out in completely new, and individual, directions. Whether they ever heard of Thelema or Crowley, such people are 'doing their will' as far as I can tell. The precept of Do what thou wilt is the most idiosyncratic of moral codes, so it stands to reason that those who best exemplify this totally personal approach to action are to some degree Thelemic. Ornette Coleman certainly fits that description, far more than great bands like Aerosmith, who simply exemplified an existing genre. Ornette didn't follow trends or styles, he created them.

I believe the foregoing paragraph ought to be pretty obvious. It's not some kind of revelation. That's why I emphasized celebrating Coleman's accomplishments, as opposed to dissecting whether or not his music was 'Thelemic'. It seemed to me that you immediately wanted to turn this thread into something the OP didn't intend. That's your prerogative. And if I've missed your point, then it must be due to my inability to read carefully. Thanks for reminding me that I should do that.

So anyway, hats off to Ornette Coleman, one of the true geniuses of modern music. Rest in peace.

Litlluw
RLG


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Anonymous
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15/06/2015 10:09 am  

The subject of jazz music here is irrelevant within the context of discussing what Thelema is.  With that said, what you are saying is we now have a way to identify that someone is/was doing their will and it's this?;

1.  A fair amount of people think they were a leader of a school of thought.
2.  They were a disciplined sought of person.
3.  They didn't follow trends they created them.

Does this imply that we can therefore identify those who are not doing their True Will if in said person's life; 

1. Hardly anyone thinks they were a leader of a school of thought.
2.  They were not a disciplined sought of person.
3.  They followed trends and did not create them?


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Michael Staley
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15/06/2015 10:40 am  

This isn't a thread "discussing what Thelema is". It concerns the death of a jazz musician, and so within the context of the thread, the "subject of jazz music" has relevance. There are plenty of other threads "discussing what Thelema is" which would doubtless benefit from your attentions.

If on the other hand you are trying to say that this thread has no place on LAShTAL, then you can of course take it up with the owner of this site.


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Anonymous
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15/06/2015 7:02 pm  

True. 


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lashtal
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15/06/2015 9:02 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
If on the other hand you are trying to say that this thread has no place on LAShTAL, then you can of course take it up with the owner of this site.

It's in the 'Stuff' forum ('Members only. Wander up to the bar and buy the rest of us a drink while you talk about ... stuff. Stuff that's at least slightly relevant to the site but which doesn't fit neatly into any other Forums.') and it is, to my mind at least, moderately interesting, so it has a place here.

For those visitors to this site using a web browser that forces them to read every single thread? Best change your browser...

Owner and Editor
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threefold31
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16/06/2015 2:09 am  
"david" wrote:
... what you are saying is we now have a way to identify that someone is/was doing their will and it's this?;

1.  A fair amount of people think they were a leader of a school of thought.
2.  They were a disciplined sought of person.
3.  They didn't follow trends they created them.

Does this imply that we can therefore identify those who are not doing their True Will if in said person's life; 

1. Hardly anyone thinks they were a leader of a school of thought.
2.  They were not a disciplined sought of person.
3.  They followed trends and did not create them?

Dwtw

What is this, Philosophy 101?

Set A does not exclusively define a doer of Will, therefore it's supposed opposite, Set B, cannot exclusively define one who is not a doer of Will.

So no, the characteristics you paraphrased don't imply any identities based on their opposites. Nor did I say they were exclusive hallmarks of one who is doing their will. Beyond that, I'll stand by what I wrote and not elaborate.

But since you said elsewhere recently:

"david" wrote:
I knew it!  His performances were so Thelemic.

Clearly you have some idea in mind of what constitutes a 'Thelemic' acting performance by Sir Christopher Lee?
And might that have something in common with the OP implying that Ornette's music is also 'Thelemic' to some degree?

Litlluw
RLG


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threefold31
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25/06/2015 5:09 am  

Dwtw

Still no reply after 9 days. Apparently @david is too busy being 'radically honest' elsewhere :-/

I suppose I could practice some of that myself: people who post comments they cannot justify, which contradict other things they post elsewhere, and then can't be bothered to respond to questions about such seemingly hypocritical positions, are not really worth spending time on. They ignore netiquette when it suits them, being too busy on a different soapbox. Since they have affirmed that there is no need to reply, then they will be responded to in kind, i.e., not at all. Such people will go on my list of those whose posts I no longer bother to read, such as Los and WRWB. I think they're all trolls who love to hear themselves type.

ooops... was that being too honest?

Litlluw
RLG


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Anonymous
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25/06/2015 8:45 am  

It was a form of ironic humour when I said that Lee's performances were "Thelemic".  Those who know my views would've got that instantly.  How can a performance be "Thelemic"?  It can't and I've said this many times before.


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ignant666
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25/06/2015 1:15 pm  

So "performances" cannot be "Thelemic", in the view of Pope david? Why not, if it would not trouble you too much to answer?
Can musical, or theatrical, compositions be "Thelemic"? If not, why not?
Can any artistic works be "Thelemic", a question I raised above? Note that to be scored as responsive to the question, answers must mention Paul Gaugin.


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