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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

The "we" thing was part of their "pandrogyny" project of attempting to merge with their wife as one person, via plastic surgery etc.

Oh, are you sure because TOPY philosophy involved  the acceptance of 'magical' multi-personalities an idea presumably taken from AC's VVVV, Perdurab, To Mega Therion etc as documented by Regardie in The Eye in the Triangle?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

The "we" thing was part of their "pandrogyny" project of attempting to merge with their wife as one person, via plastic surgery etc.

Ack! I can't believe I made a pronoun gaffe!

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Oh I never saw Carroll do that. 

I think he started doing that in Psybermagick


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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

Ack! I can't believe I made a pronoun gaffe!

No doubt even more galling when a "boomer" such as me uses the preferred forms.


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @katrice

Ack! I can't believe I made a pronoun gaffe!

No doubt even more galling when a "boomer" such as me uses the preferred forms.

And I KNOW to use they/them!

 

I'll just choose to.explain it by saying I was thinking in terms of alchemical polarities when I typed that and my brain just went with the archetypes. 


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

Further, the only discernible "philosophy" of TOPY was "Genesis is always right; never mind that he [GPO was definitely still "he" at that time] said something different last week; ALL MUST OBEY!"

I'm curious, have you read Thee Grey Book?

TOPY was before my time, so I can't intelligently comment on anything that was going on then. From what I've gathered, after a long time of saying that the group was non-hierarchical, GPO then basically said it was over, they were bored with it, and the members who had believed that it was non-hierarchical and took the claimed ideas seriously said WTF and fought back. I've met a few of them and they seem ok and seem to be following the concept TOPY claimed to represent rather than following GPO. 

And then GPO spent the rest of their career making new versions of TOPY, like The Process and TOPI, while claiming that these were new things, even to the point of recycling poorly-edited TOPY documents and presenting these as new material. 

I've no respect for GPO as a person, but they had some interesting ideas and works early on, though they really never seemed to have moved any further after that, despite claims of having done so.  And none of those ideas were particularly "original", just remixing of existing ideas, mostly Spare, Burroughs, and Reich, in to new configurations.

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

So did TOPY ever claim to offer this? It certainly bandied the term "initiation" around.

Thee Grey Book mentions a process of finding one's true self by examining all of one's desires and inclinations to find what one truly wants to become and then implementing it, this is the core of the intent process of their sigilization rites. This is the closest to initiatory work I've seen in any TOPY publications I've read. No higher-grade material, but I think that may have been left for members to pursue on their own. 

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

'Black Lodge'? Sounds a bit wack like something from a Lovecraft novel

or Twin Peaks?  😉 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

 

I'm curious, have you read Thee Grey Book?

Yes, wasn't that the one where there are edited (scribbled out/ammended) quotes from Liber AL?

 

By the way I'm not joking but this kids-TV presenter was a member..if I'm not mistaken. 

Spanish Armada Get Fresh Teignmouth 1988 - YouTube

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

And then GPO spent the rest of their career ...

Their? I thought the proper word was its.

Posted by: @katrice

... they really never seemed to have moved any further after that, despite claims of having done so. 

It (the non-gender Ego) got stuck. A perfect example of my thesis.

Posted by: @katrice

... finding one's true self by examining all of one's desires and inclinations to find what one truly wants to become ...

This is an example of Do What Thou Want. The true path involves becoming devoid of desires and inclinations (please refer to the various A.'.A.'. Oaths) in order to discovers what the so-called "higher self" is Willing the vehicle to do.

 

 


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katrice
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@david-dom-lemieux

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Yes, wasn't that the one where there are edited (scribbled out/ammended) quotes from Liber AL?

I was asking Ignant specifically.  I'd already assumed that you had.

It's the TOPY manual, basically. The one official "bible" for the group. Not to be confused with Thee Psychick Bible, which is just a collection of TOPY writings.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/topy/topymani.htm

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

By the way I'm not joking but this kids-TV presenter was a member..if I'm not mistaken. 

Interesting.  There were probably members all over the place back then. 


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ignant666
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If the linked text was it, i have now.

Thee affected spelling ov words coums to be quite tedious. Little of interest is said; there is zero evidence of any effort at, or interest in, any sort of initiation or transcendence.

The edict that one must create, and send to Cult Headquarters, 23 sigils embodying one's ultimate sexual desires that are soaked with semen/sexual fluids, spit, and blood, and with head and public hairs attached, created over 23 months, accompanied by the appropriate "Consent Forms" [!!!!- link sadly dead], suggest intentions which might appall practitioners of "low magic". Scientologists do similar things.

Nothing here suggests that TOPY were/are anything other than the run-of-the-mill authoritarian mind-control cult they always appeared to be.


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katrice
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@ignant666 

 

Thee affected spelling ov words coums to be quite tedious.

agreed. I get the claimed intent that it's to make people more mindful of language, but it makes it a pain to read

 

Little of interest is said; there is zero evidence of any effort at, or interest in, any sort of initiation or transcendence.

 

I've gathered it was not meant to be a complete curriculum, more a starting point and members were intended to explore other areas on their own. 

Yeah, the Sigil of 3 Liquids is creepy.  From what I've seen, the use of a sex fantasy was just intended for the beginning, and future intents were supposed to involve a process of self-discovery regarding one's true desires and true self, separated from outer influences. Still I do question the sending in of fluids and hair.

 

Posted by: @ignant666

Nothing here suggests that TOPY were/are anything other than the run-of-the-mill authoritarian mind-control cult they always appeared to be.

I can't speak to how it was when it started, as that period predates my existence, but so far as "are" goes, AIN involves no mind control or hierarchy at all, from what I've seen. It's just a loose network of people who practice magick, most of whom are also artists. I get the feeling that some people took the ideas seriously, and thought for themselves, while some, maybe most? were just looking for a new belief system to try on and just followed directions.   

But I do find it interesting that GPO started on about how it was an experiment in creating a mind control cult only after he attempted to disband the group, some members balked at his authority to do so, and he started threatening them with legal action.   

Maybe it was intended as a cult from the start. I don't know. But it was a cult hiding behind rhetoric encouraging self-discovery, creativity, and personal expression, which makes for great ad copy but isn't the greatest way to encourage conformity.  

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

it was a cult hiding behind rhetoric encouraging self-discovery, creativity, and personal expression, which makes for great ad copy but isn't the greatest way to encourage conformity.  

Except didn't they all have to shave their heads, all wear grey jumpsuits with the "psychick cross", and all have the same name?

One name for all males, another for all females- no others need apply? Interesting in light of GPO's later gender-history.


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

Except didn't they all have to shave their heads, all wear grey jumpsuits with the "psychick cross",

 

Was that actually a requirement?  I don't remember having seen anything saying that in anything I've read, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I've read the TOPY writings, and as far as I remember Thee Grey Book and its successors was the only "Official" text. There were certainly lots of GPO imitators, though, who adopted the look. I've just interpreted the psychick cross itself as an identifier like the regular cross for Christians or the unicursal hexagram for Thelemites.  

and all have the same name? One name for all males, another for all females- no others need apply? Interesting in light of GPO's later gender-history.

 

Well, two names for males, Eden and Coyote, but that's nitpicking. With an individual number following the name.  AIN doesn't use that any more.  It is interesting given GPO's later history, and even some stuff they released in the early 90s had the slogan "nothing short of a total gender". 

 

I just want to restate that I am still in no way defending GPO's actions, which are repugnant to me.  But I kind of have a soft spot for TOPY as an idea, and for the people who kept with it after GPO tried to end it. To be honest, I probably would have joined if I had been around then.  Magick, sex, and transgressive art?  I'd totally have been in to it. 

 


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ignant666
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I thought all men were Coyote, and all women were Eden? If i'm mistaken, what were all the women called then?

And yes, the grey jumpsuits, and shaved heads, were de rigeur in the GPO days. Whatever may have been written down, that was what Genesis wanted, and that was what folks did.

Until he didn't want them to do it anymore, and some of them ignored his dictates and kept doing (some of) it, which is the only vaguely good thing i have ever heard about them.

They were a classic example of what Shiva calls a Tong, but went straight to the "authoritarian/domination/cult" phase, omitting the earlier "spiritual ferment" phase that characterized, for example, The Process.


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666

I thought all men were Coyote, and all women were Eden? If i'm mistaken, what were all the women called then?

 

All female members were called Kali. 

 

And yes, the grey jumpsuits, and shaved heads, were de rigeur in the GPO days. Whatever may have been written down, that was what Genesis wanted, and that was what folks did.

 

There were imitators, but i don't think I've seen anything about it being policy. GPO made public comments about asking members to dress like him, but those seem to have come after he tried to shut the group down. 

 

Until he didn't want them to do it anymore, and some of them ignored his dictates and kept doing (some of) it, which is the only vaguely good thing i have ever heard about them.

Some of them took the whole thing about TOPY being a matrix for their development seriously from the start and were surprised when he expected them to do something just because he said so regardless of what they wanted. 

 

They were a classic example of what Shiva calls a Tong, but went straight to the "authoritarian/domination/cult" phase, omitting the earlier "spiritual ferment" phase that characterized, for example, The Process.

By which you mean GPO's The Process, right?  

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

They were a classic example of what Shiva calls a Tong, but went straight to the "authoritarian/domination/cult" phase, omitting the earlier "spiritual ferment" phase that characterized, for example, The Process.

A strong cult leader moves in fast, powered by a powerful, dominant territorial neurocircuit (#2).

In the case of benevolent orgs that go black, it seems the cause is always the same as the one AC reported ... "Mathers failed to attain complete initiation."

Posted by: @katrice

... when he expected them to do something just because he said so regardless of what they wanted. 

Ah, such fond memories of the days in Mexican Limbo. Our Grand Master, who was in the process of becoming kranky and bossy, decided we all need to go out and dig holes all day, then fill them in again ... just because they were told to by her self-evident authority. However, she was not so far gone as to order it done. (Mutiny might have followed).

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @katrice

By which you mean GPO's The Process, right?  

No.

There was apparently a short-lived project among some industrial music folks called "The Process" (which i had never heard of until googling to figure out what you could possibly mean by calling The Process "his"), but i meant  Robert and Mary Ann de Grimston's Process Church Of The Final Judgment, which is where the musos stole the name and ideas (to the extent that the '90s version had any ideas besides "buy our records").


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

 

Nothing here suggests that TOPY were/are anything other than the run-of-the-mill authoritarian mind-control cult they always appeared to be.

The folk who networked with each other after Orridge's control freak protest (TOPY/AIN) were not an authoritarian cult, they were/are just interested in exchanging ideas on Chaos Magic/art/body modification etc.  They probably collectively get together every 23rd of the month to piss on his grave is how they feel about him. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

Ah, such fond memories of the days in Mexican Limbo. Our Grand Master, who was in the process of becoming kranky and bossy, decided we all need to go out and dig holes all day, then fill them in again ... just because they were told to by her self-evident authority. However, she was not so far gone as to order it done. (Mutiny might have followed).

 

That's crazy even though it may interpreted as Gurdjeffian....then again maybe G.IG. made his disciples dig holes a la FDR i.e. there was  a practical end result.

Anyway brings to mind Emperor Caligula's order for his men to collect seashells after a battle.

I don't think Orridge ever got over the bullying he faced in the English grammar school system.  

Posted by: @shiva
 

 

In the case of benevolent orgs that go black, it seems the cause is always the same as the one AC reported ... "Mathers failed to attain complete initiation."

 

The man who made the weak eat shit, canoodle with animals and wuff cocaine in Cefalu calling out someone for being a (non initiated) control freak?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @katrice

By which you mean GPO's The Process, right?  

No.

There was apparently a short-lived project among some industrial music folks called "The Process" (which i had never heard of until googling to figure out what you could possibly mean by calling The Process "his"), but i meant  Robert and Mary Ann de Grimston's Process Church Of The Final Judgment, which is where the musos stole the name and ideas (to the extent that the '90s version had any ideas besides "buy our records").

 

OK, thank you. I am quite familiar with the Process Church of The Final Judgment, and have read much of William Sims Bainbridge's writings about them.  I was a little confused since we were talking about GPO I thought you might have meant their Process. That was the group I meant when I said that some of the material was literally just old TOPY publications with the word "Temple" replaced with "Process". which was unintentionally hilarious.   "Thee Process ov Psychick Youth"?!  Really?! Were they even proofreading?! 

 GPO's Process really was just recycled TOPY, using the PCotFJ's logo in place of the Psychick Cross, even going so far as to call the logo the "P-Cross".  In terms of it being anything "new", it was about as original as their later "One True TOPI Tribe",which was TOPY but with back patches for members' jackets.

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

The folk who networked with each other after Orridge's control freak protest (TOPY/AIN) were not an authoritarian cult, they were/are just interested in exchanging ideas on Chaos Magic/art/body modification etc.  They probably collectively get together every 23rd of the month to piss on his grave is how they feel about him. 

Can confirm except for the pissing on the grave, which, if not done, is probably something they'd all like to do.  And AIN still does exist.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

That's crazy even though it may interpreted as Gurdjeffian.

Well, yes, I thought it was a ridiculous idea. I didn't bother to interpret it in any other terms than "WTF?"

Posted by: @katrice

AIN still does exist.

Nothing, under its various titles and names, will be with us forever and ever on.

Of course, metaphysically speaking, it does not exist. Go figure.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @shiva

Well, yes, I thought it was a ridiculous idea.

In other words, in the parlance of the day, you did not "dig" it?


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @shiva

Well, yes, I thought it was a ridiculous idea.

In other words, in the parlance of the day, you did not "dig" it?

...

In a whistling desert wind the tumbleweed bounced up and down the arid landscape.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

you did not "dig" it?

Many holes were dug for a purpose. The swimming pool at Solar Ranch (hole dug - no cement or water yet) provided a "trash dump" wherein (legal) drugs were hidden from the, um, authorities, when they came to visit and look for illegal things. Two holes in San Vicente (rural Mejico) served to see-creet docs. I started digging on The Magical Island (WA state) for a septic tank (which never got finished). Also, a 'dozer dug a big pond hole on the same isle (the pond still exists).

But dig holes for refilling and no practical use? No, we did not dig even one. When Grand Master Mamas start thinking this way, and uttering their thoughts out loud, it's time to start considering the alternatives, which I did.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

 

Yeah, the Sigil of 3 Liquids is creepy. 

Creepy?  This coming from the lady who likes to be pissed on and goodness knows what else etc in a 'trance of loathing'?  😀 😀 

Ignant is cherry-picking the bad bits about TOPY.  No, they were not required to shave their heads and wear a weird grey jumpsuit or whatever. They were advised (not told) to become individuals, practice self-defense and question 'control' at all times.  TOPY was a mockery of the dysfunctional hierarchies of traditional magical groups.  There were no leaders, the principle was anarchic which apparently is Ignant's ideal society but.....

Ignant being an avid Antifascist sometimes distorts fact accidentally.  He knows that Orridge remained a lifelong friend with the dreaded Boyd Rice for example.  (N.B. I too hold liberal democracy as the way to go and despise Tucker Carlton etc)   Similarly Crowley's constructive aspects (his book on yoga, Vel Jugorum, scientific method) were totally overlooked by the dumb Yellow Press of the day, they focussed on all the failings in Cefalu etc. 

 

Involvement in thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth requires an active individual, dedicated towards thee establishment ov a functional system ov magick and a modern pagan philosophy without recourse to mystification, gods or demons; but recognising thee implicit powers ov thee human brain (neuromancy) linked with guiltless sexuality focused through Will Structure (Sigils).

Magick empowers thee individual to embrace and realise their dreams and maximise their natural potential. It is for those with thee courage to touch themselves. It integrates all levels ov thought in thee first steps towards final negation ov control and fear

T.O.P.Y. Manifesto (sacred-texts.com)

  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux
Posted by: @katrice

 

Yeah, the Sigil of 3 Liquids is creepy. 

Creepy?  This coming from the lady who likes to be pissed on and goodness knows what else etc in a 'trance of loathing'?  😀 😀 

  

"Likes" implies that I enjoy such things and do them for fun, which would defeat the purpose of doing them in the first place.

 

I just question the idea of sending such powerful links to potential strangers, though I know that trust is a part of that process.

 

But your words on TOPY match my own research, and my interactions with people from AIN. 


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christibrany
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@shiva 

 

Was the pool finished and cemented/ filled in? 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

Was the pool finished and cemented/ filled in? 

It might not have been a pool. It might have been a bomb shelter. But we weren't nuke-concerned, so probably not. It was a hole in the ground. No finishing touches. Here, you've probably read this already, but it's the only scrap of historical history available ...

"Oh yes! The cops did actually return a few weeks after the original arrests, and then they were specifically looking for drugs. But they didn’t find any.

Aha! But the drugs were there! Not illegal drugs, mind you, but legal drugs. For, you see, Frater Shem, DDS, had a small supply of morphine, barbiturates and stimulants in a medical supply chest. But nobody was using that stuff. Besides, by this time Shem was hiding out in a distant place across the State line, and no one else who was present had a legal narcotics license.

So when they saw the cops coming, I was told that the on-site members just threw the medical box into a pile of trash at the bottom of a large, deep, unfinished, swimming pool excavation. The Sheriffs were obviously reluctant to climb down into a "trash pit," and so they missed their opportunity to cause more, unwarranted trouble."

But, you see, we also had a 10,000-gallon gas tank that was cut, re-welded. and finished with epoxy-glass modern miracle stuff. It was filled with nice clean water from our nice well, and so who needed an underrground hole-type pool when a state-of-the-art one was available above the ground?

I do not have the answer. Please consult the I Ching (Yi King) Canon of Changes for further information.


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( "BDSM & Religion, Magick, Esotericism with Dr Alison Robertson [a practitioner of BDSM]", source: BDSM & Religion, Magick, Esotericism with Dr Alison Robertson - YouTube )

katrice: ""Likes" implies that I enjoy such things and do them for fun, which would defeat the purpose of doing them in the first place."

The above is Katrice's respons after being described by David Dom Lemieux as "... the lady who likes to be pissed on and goodness knows what else etc in a 'trance of loathing'?"

 

In the interview linked to at the beginning of this posting, [a practitioner of BDSM] Dr Alison Robertson conducting research into BDSM as lived religious practice, states that:

(18 minutes 10 seconds:) "I certainly didn't meet anybody who only used their BDSM for ritual or spiritual purposes and didn't have the pleasure aspect of it. I didn't meet anybody who made that separation[,] and I'm not aware in any of the literature, even the stuff that comes out from within the scene, I'm not aware of anyone who would make that absolute exception." (18 minutes 46 seconds:) "I didn't come across anyone who would only ever use BSDM for ritual purposes ...". (19 minutes and 50 seconds:) "... from pretty much all of the people I spoke to the pleasure aspect of it, the enjoyment aspect of it was the first thing[,] and then they started to find it more and more important as a thing in its own right. [...] Leading to (20 minutes 39 second:) "religioning" [defined as]"meaning-making", and leading to "... reflection, and self-development, and self-exploration, pushing limits [and] transgressing norms ...".

 

Katrice, have you experienced that there is a large number of individuals who only use BSDM for ritual or spiritual purposes, and not for enjoyment or pleasure?


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katrice
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Katrice, have you experienced that there is a large number of individuals who only use BSDM for ritual or spiritual purposes, and not for enjoyment or pleasure?

Thank you for such an interesting question!

I think that I need to make a distinction. I'm not averse to some light algolagnia here and there, but the things Dom referenced are a different aspect of my practice.  It comes down to the distinction between indulgence and transgression that I wrote about here a while ago.  Some things I do to indulge, though even that tends to get channeled in to magickal work. Those would be things I enjoy.  Some I do to transgress against my limits, like the more extreme practices that Dom referred to.  Those would be things I do not enjoy.

But to address your question, I haven't seen many people who use BDSM purely for spiritual purposes and not for fun, and a lot of people I've seen who mainly seem to talk about it in terms of Magickal practice probably do it in a way that they enjoy.  I've mentioned Robert North before. He writes about a lot of more extreme BDSM practices, and what I've seen from his writings on his blog, these are things he seems to be in to for fun too.  The Shrecks clearly do too, as does Stephen Flowers.  And there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.  Many people draw power from pleasure and ecstasy.  I know I do.    Just be honest about it. 

But there are certainly people like me who also engage in personal transgressive work too, doing certain things purely for magickal purposes.  

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Katrice: "I think that I need to make a distinction. I'm not averse to some light algolagnia here and there, but the things Dom referenced are a different aspect of my practice. It comes down to the distinction between indulgence and transgression that I wrote about here a while ago.  Some things I do to indulge, though even that tends to get channeled in to magickal work. Those would be things I enjoy.  Some I do to transgress against my limits, like the more extreme practices that Dom referred to.  Those would be things I do not enjoy."

 

In Liber II The Message of The Master Therion (first appearing in The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919)), AC does make the distinction that "``Do what thou wilt'' does not mean ``Do what you like.'' It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond."

But in Book 837 The Law of Liberty, contained within the same document The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919), AC does with respect to indulgence also state "... that every act must be a ritual, an act of worship, a sacrament. [...] but let it not be self-indulgence; make your self-indulgence your religion."

One is in other words told by AC, to make one's "excessive or unrestrained gratification of one's own appetites, desires, or whims" (= the Merriam-Webster dictionary's definition of "self-indulgence", source: Self-indulgence Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster ) one's "personal set or [...] system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices" or one's "... cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" (= the Merriam-Webster dictionary's definition of "religion", source: Religion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster )

 

From 53 minutes 10 seconds into the interview with Dr Alison Robertson, she states that BDSM "... is still pathologised [and] not unequivocally removed from the DSM[,] the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that's used by psychiatrists to diagnose mental illness and disorders[.] [...] the latest iteration of that, it did remove fethises it did remove paraphilias, in general, but what it didn't remove was sadism and masochism. You can still be diagnosed with a disorder for either of those. It puts in the provisio that it has to cause you distress, ...".

From 18 minutes and 46 seconds into this interview Dr Robertson states that "I didn't come across anyone who would only ever use BSDM for ritual purposes and I think there's an interseting thing to explore there that I haven't explored yet."  

 

That is, if you Katrice know more people who use BDSM purely for spiritual purposes and not for fun, this would certainly be knowledge that Dr Alison Robertson would like to explore more about.


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katrice
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

In Liber II The Message of The Master Therion (first appearing in The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919)), AC does make the distinction that "``Do what thou wilt'' does not mean ``Do what you like.'' It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond."

But in Book 837 The Law of Liberty, contained within the same document The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919), AC does with respect to indulgence also state "... that every act must be a ritual, an act of worship, a sacrament. [...] but let it not be self-indulgence; make your self-indulgence your religion."

Which is part of  how I pursue my practice. As I said on the Wine and strange drugs thread, I follow a more "libertine" path but my libertinage is under Will. Indulgence is a powerful tool for me but the caution here is to not allow the tool to become the master.  

I am also aware that the DSM has depatholigized some aspects of BDSM, reflecting new insights and changing levels of social acceptance.  

 But I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer your question for other people, because I don't feel qualified to make the distinction. It's a much more complex topic than it may appear on the surface, and I think my response my have been unclear.  How do we make a distinction as to what comprises BDSM for the purposes of this discussion.  The most common interpretation exists to make the distinction that these things are done for pleasure.   The actions that Dom addressed were ones that I had performed as acts of transgression against my own limits. While they would qualify as BDSM, they were not done for pleasure, and I derived no pleasure from the acts themselves. They were done purely for magickal purposes.  But I have also performed some acts of indulgence for magickal purposes too, as it's a powerful tool for me, and sometimes some algolagnia is part of that too.  

 

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"``Do what thou wilt'' does not mean ``Do what you like.'' It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond."

What if...

Thy Will is thy Like; Thou likest what thou Wilt

For this be thy Path; It is how Thou wast built

?

After all, would this not describe the K & C of the HGA? 

 


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katrice
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@kidneyhawk 

I would argue that finding out what speaks to you deeply, what inspires you, brings you to ecstasy, and even what you truly like and enjoy, can be part of finding your Will. 

But "what you like" naturally isn't always part of it.  It's not always just what pleases you, and a lot of people "like" things just due to societal expectations, or like things because they were memed in to it. 


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kidneyhawk
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I agree, Katrice. I just wanted to write a couplet-and point out that leaving behind those superficial "likes" for the Authenticity of Will may involve discipline, sacrifice and pain-but Will is also the Path of Fulfillment-or at least Resonance with a type of Deep Harmony. One doesn't typically describe their "Doing Their Will" as a path of self-denial. Well, one typically doesn't describe it as "Doing Their Will," either. Having come into that Zone, there is engagement, flow and direction. Clearly, an athlete would be constantly engaged in "restriction" (diet, work-out regimen, sleep etc) but the focus would be on the sheer joy of that Path. Unless, of course, being a pro in such a field ran counter to the True Will-or "Heart's Deep Core"-and they would better take their place in the Universe as an investment banker. 

Did David Bowie like singing? Does David Lynch like making movies? Did Picasso like making his art? Or were they in a state of self-denial as they tried to find their Will via their chosen venues?


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katrice
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I agree, Katrice. I just wanted to write a couplet-and point out that leaving behind those superficial "likes" for the Authenticity of Will may involve discipline, sacrifice and pain-but Will is also the Path of Fulfillment-or at least Resonance with a type of Deep Harmony. One doesn't typically describe their "Doing Their Will" as a path of self-denial. Well, one typically doesn't describe it as "Doing Their Will," either. Having come into that Zone, there is engagement, flow and direction. Clearly, an athlete would be constantly engaged in "restriction" (diet, work-out regimen, sleep etc) but the focus would be on the sheer joy of that Path. Unless, of course, being a pro in such a field ran counter to the True Will-or "Heart's Deep Core"-and they would better take their place in the Universe as an investment banker. 

And a nice couplet it was!  

I think some people tend to go too far on one side or the other, pure austerity or pure hedonism, rather than following a balance and finding the ways one can feed the other, like your example of the athlete, or even how denial of a pleasure for a time can sharpen the pleasure when one finally indulges in it again.    I think that, as in many things, the ideal is a balance. 

I'm going to add something here that I keep meaning to include in my responses to wellreadwellbred.

Maria de Naglowska's Confrérie de la Flèche D'Or practiced a ritual called the Mystery of the Hanging, which involved autoerotic asphyxiation.  While I do not doubt the effectiveness of this practice, I wonder how many people who undertook it looked at it and thought "Hey! That looks like fun!".  This would be another thing that would fall under "BDSM" but was probably not an indulgence for many of the participants, rather seen as an initiatory rite. 

 

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @katrice

was probably not an indulgence for many of the participants, rather seen as an initiatory rite. 

or Last Rites!


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ignant666
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Last Rites

The good old "orgasm-death gimmick", as St. William S. Burroughs so eloquently put it in Naked Lunch.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"... that every act must be a ritual, an act of worship, a sacrament. [...

Well, I'll be darned or dismissed if you haven't uncovered one of the past, present, and possibly future misunderstandings that apply to every aspect of The Path, especially in the results department. The Key is found in the words, "must be."

I find a parallel in The Oath of the Magister Templi. There are a lot of "I Will ..."s.

There are many other examples. They are all Affirmations. That is, they are all statements of how we want things to be, and the imperative must be is indicative of Will stepping in (unless we delude ourselves and it's just personal desire pretending to be True Will).

Anyway, people read this stuff and then they try to create it (the sacrament, the samadhi, the wu-wei) with their linear mind(s) ...

This won't work. It is called "wishful thinking." It helps guide us through life by providing a certain context (bias?) to our internal QBL. However, it doesn't get the deed (result) - because the result (the sacrament, the samadhi) is something that is bestowed(grace), seemingly as a result ofinner work (mysticism), which is a science of mind (yama) but becomes an art of no-mind in the later stages that lead to the result (sacrament, samadhi).

If you see a paradox here, you are confused. The point is that one proceeds with Raja yoga and Sacraments conjoined.

 

 

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Katrice:

"Maria de Naglowska's Confrérie de la Flèche D'Or practiced a ritual called the Mystery of the Hanging, which involved autoerotic asphyxiation. [...] This would be another thing that would fall under "BDSM" but was probably not an indulgence for many of the participants, rather seen as an initiatory rite."

 

I don't know if a large number of persons used to practice, or a large number of persons are now practicing, Maria's ritual called the Mystery of the Hanging, or if this Maria would have found it problematic if someone practiced this ritual to derive pleasure from it. 

 

From 18 minutes and 55 seconds into the interview with Dr Alison Robertson, she mentions that she has not explored "As to where the differences would be [...] between someone who's is only doing it [= BDSM] because of the ritual demans of their tradition, whatever it is, ...". She then asks if Gardnerian Wicca does not have a flagellation practice, and wonders "... how many people are doing that purely because it is a religious requirement and not because they get any pleasure from it." She also states "Perhaps getting pleasure out of it is a problem, I don't know."

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 I don't know if a large number of persons used to practice, or a large number of persons are now practicing, Maria's ritual called the Mystery of the Hanging, or if this Maria would have found it problematic if someone practiced this ritual to derive pleasure from it. 

Maria's Work is an obsession of mine, but she's very little known today outside of certain circles. The Confrerie was active in the 1930s, but full translations of her writings have only been made available in the 2010s.

 

I doubt she would have found it problematic at all, given the libertine nature of her practices, but the Hanging was intended to produce an initiatory shock. 

From 18 minutes and 55 seconds into the interview with Dr Alison Robertson, she mentions that she has not explored "As to where the differences would be [...] between someone who's is only doing it [= BDSM] because of the ritual demans of their tradition, whatever it is, ...". She then asks if Gardnerian Wicca does not have a flagellation practice, and wonders "... how many people are doing that purely because it is a religious requirement and not because they get any pleasure from it." She also states "Perhaps getting pleasure out of it is a problem, I don't know."

I believe that the only barrier that derivation of pleasure would have would be if the intent of the practice was meant as an ascetic practice ie mortification, or if it was intended as an unpleasant experience unto itself, ie an act of personal transgression. 

I once took part in a sexual initiation that was partly a paired version of Pyramidos, and will admit that the "The Scourge, the Dagger & the Chain" part was not entirely unpleasant.


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