The Third Chapter
 
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Shiva
(@shiva)
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07/11/2011 4:41 pm  

Anyone who has read the third chapter of Liber AL probably had a line or two that particularly rattled their sensitivities. You know, there's all that fire and those sharp, pointed objects, and a bunch of trampling and slaying.

The Solar Lodge teaching on this subject was obvious to us and very clear. This is an inner war, our own personal Armageddon. This concept is contained and explained within the Kalachakra tantra. Please see the one-page PDF ATTACHMENT for the details - Liber AL is mentioned.

Okay, so forget the ATTACHMENT because there doesn't appear to be an ATTACHMENT function any more. Instead you can get your own copy by going to:
http://min.us/mqf02FJt Y"> http://min.us/mqf02FJtY

Then you might want to view or download the Kalichakra 3D Yantra in WMV (the Borg's Windows Media Video). It's only a minute and a half long. Note the appearance of Lam from .04 to .06 (four to six seconds). You can see it at:
http://min.us/mskzYIbx g"> http://min.us/mskzYIbxg


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 7:19 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Anyone who has read the third chapter of Liber AL probably had a line or two that particularly rattled their sensitivities.

Liber AL is an affront to the status quo on many levels, internal and external to us, and I always assumed that this was its intention, and took it from there. Alternately, one can rationalize anything to the point that one's comfort is restored and the status quo is preserved. I have never believed that this was the intent of Liber AL. If it was, it might just as well have not been written at all, and we could all have just adopted the Eastern paradigms that were already there for millennia.


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 8:05 pm  

Not sure about that...

Threaten the young of any mother and there's absolutely no doubt about where the war is going to happen. She's got no 'inner war' going on.

Afterwards - maybe it get's internalised...

So maybe conflict and conflict resolution is best dealt with up front and openly?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
07/11/2011 8:07 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Then you might want to view or download the Kalichakra 3D Yantra in WMV (the Borg's Windows Media Video). It's only a minute and a half long. Note the appearance of Lam from .04 to .06 (four to six seconds). You can see it at:
http://min.us/mskzYIbx g"> http://min.us/mskzYIbxg

And on the lighter side one might want to view or download the Kinkaku-ji-Tantra in WMV
http://min.us/mH26hOKNO


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Los
 Los
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07/11/2011 8:07 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Alternately, one can rationalize anything to the point that one's comfort is restored and the status quo is preserved.

Indeed. One is capable of taking the "violent parts" of the Book and interpreting them as metaphors for lovey-dovey ideas ("Oh! If only you would slay your bad thoughts -- then you'd be all enlightened and see that the message of the Book is that we should all be nice to each other!!").

Of course, one is equally capable of taking the lovey-dovey parts and interpreting them as metaphors for violence and war.

And that's the problem here: if one starts with preconceived values and then twists the Book to mean something in line with one's preconceived values...what's the point of the Book? Why not just forget about the Book and stick with one's preconceived values?


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 8:20 pm  

Hey Los...

I think you're over-generalising a tad. I mean - how can all the ripping out of eyeballs and tearing of flesh and cursing ... possibly ... ever be twisted round to seem 'lovey-dovey'? 😀


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3883
07/11/2011 8:23 pm  

So tell me Los, how many beggars do you kick in the teeth every day? How many of the wretched and the weak do you grind down?


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 8:55 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
So tell me Los, how many beggars do you kick in the teeth every day? How many of the wretched and the weak do you grind down?

Michael, really? Take it in the context in which it was given, as a Aeon shift from the previous time of the slave gods. The meek SHALL NOT inherit the Earth. Individual weakness, dependency and submission ARE NOT virtues and SHOULD NOT be encouraged. Individual strength, freedom and independence ARE virtues and SHOULD BE encouraged. We are NOT for "the people," the herd, as a concept. We ARE for the individual, "the Star," as a concept. If you give a man a fish he will eat for one day, but if you teach a man to fish he will eat for life. What is so difficult about this?


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Azidonis
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07/11/2011 9:32 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
So tell me Los, how many beggars do you kick in the teeth every day? How many of the wretched and the weak do you grind down?

I got the cartoon of a man in prison, standing facing a wall with a bunch of tally marks on it.

One part is marked "kicked in the teeth", the other one is marked "weak ground down".

Of course he is drawing a "weak ground down" tally, and you look down to see his foot wrenching on some dude's head.


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 9:33 pm  

Oh no, the meek certainly will inherit the earth; the bankers will be off colonising the stars.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
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07/11/2011 9:38 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Michael, really? Take it in the context in which it was given, as a Aeon shift from the previous time of the slave gods. The meek SHALL NOT inherit the Earth. Individual weakness, dependency and submission ARE NOT virtues and SHOULD NOT be encouraged. Individual strength, freedom and independence ARE virtues and SHOULD BE encouraged. We are NOT for "the people," the herd, as a concept. We ARE for the individual, "the Star," as a concept. If you give a man a fish he will eat for one day, but if you teach a man to fish he will eat for life. What is so difficult about this?

You've misunderstood me, Camlion. What I was taking exception to was not the third chapter itself, but Los's sneering (you'd think I'd be used to it by now) at the idea that someone might look for meanings beyond the surface.


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michaelclarke18
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07/11/2011 10:10 pm  

...if one starts with preconceived values and then twists the Book to mean something in line with one's preconceived values...what's the point of the Book? Why not just forget about the Book and stick with one's preconceived values?.....

That's inevitable. One will always see the world from ones own standpoint.


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 Anonymous
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07/11/2011 10:20 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

...if one starts with preconceived values and then twists the Book to mean something in line with one's preconceived values...what's the point of the Book? Why not just forget about the Book and stick with one's preconceived values?.....

That's inevitable. One will always see the world from ones own standpoint.

Where are Adepti supposed to stand?

Where they wilt? Everywhere? Nowhere? In multiple places, spread across space and time? In the moment? At the alpha and the omega?

Maybe there isn't a standpoint? And that's the point?


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Los
 Los
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07/11/2011 10:55 pm  
"Dar" wrote:
Hey Los...

I think you're over-generalising a tad. I mean - how can all the ripping out of eyeballs and tearing of flesh and cursing ... possibly ... ever be twisted round to seem 'lovey-dovey'? 😀

Why, to "tear out the eyes" is quite simply to correct one's vision, to learn to see appropriately by casting aside the metaphorical eyes through which one falsely sees the world.....

And "to tear the flesh" is to cut through the (apparent) surface and penetrate to the core of the matter, the essential truth that burns in all individuals and all systems and inspires us all to be good chums with each other. After all, are not we one beneath this apparent cloak of flesh?

And "cursing"? Why, what does it mean to "curse" other than to condemn one's ego, to "stamp down" the wretched thoughts of separateness that prevent one from abiding in the bliss of non-duality that permeates all and that waits for us beneath the apparent surface (that must be rent away by the talons of clear perception).....

Seriously, I can write stupid dribble like this all day long. If you find any of the above flowery nonsense "inspiring," then I'll be happy to produce some more inspiration for a small fee....


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Los
 Los
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07/11/2011 10:58 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Los's sneering (you'd think I'd be used to it by now) at the idea that someone might look for meanings beyond the surface.

There obviously are meanings "beyond the surface" of the text -- but an "interpretation" that totally disregards the text (or twists passages to mean the *opposite* of what they say) isn't an interpretation. They're invention.

You might as well not have a Book of the Law if all you want to do is just stick with your original values and twist the Book to fit them.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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07/11/2011 11:35 pm  
"Los" wrote:
There obviously are meanings "beyond the surface" of the text -- but an "interpretation" that totally disregards the text (or twists passages to mean the *opposite* of what they say) isn't an interpretation. They're invention.

You might as well not have a Book of the Law if all you want to do is just stick with your original values and twist the Book to fit them.

I don't see anything in Shiva's post that suggests that he is totally disregarding the text, or twists passages to mean the opposite of what they say. Just what, then, triggered the sneers?


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herupakraath
(@herupakraath)
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08/11/2011 1:28 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
The Solar Lodge teaching on this subject was obvious to us and very clear. This is an inner war, our own personal Armageddon.

Marcello Motta argued something similar in his comment on verse III:26, suggesting the naming of oneself as an enemy before slaying one of the beetles is the preferable option; I'm of a differing opinion.

I have issues with the internalization of the third chapter, starting with the delivery of the war-engine in verse III:07, which is an apparent prediction of the atomic bomb; applying the same logic to the statement about Ra-Hoor-Khut being the warrior lord of the forties, it can be interpreted an an overt prediction of World War II. I also remind you that Crowley tied the first two publications of the Book of the Law to outbreaks of war.

The impression I have of personal conflict as explained in the Book of the Law is the assumption of a defensive posture; exampled by the "trodden serpent" metaphor.

The practice of slaying beetles or other lower lifeforms that serve as the image of an enemy is an example of classic Egyptian magic, as is taking a wax replica of an enemy and attaching it to the wheel of a wagon, to be "torn upon wheels." A similar technique requires attaching an image, or the name of an enemy to the sole of a shoe and trampling it. When Ra-Hoor-Khut pecks at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross, he is exercising a known technique of Egyptian magic, using a common image of his enemy to form a magical link with him, the crucifix, and attacking it symbolically.

The toughest question that can be asked about the third chapter of Liber L is whether we should literally kill and torture as instructed; my response is, if you wish to win a life and death struggle, you had better do whatever it takes.


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Shiva
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08/11/2011 1:32 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I don't see anything in Shiva's post that suggests that he is totally disregarding the text, or twists passages to mean the opposite of what they say. Just what, then, triggered the sneers?

Haha, haha! The Bhagavad Gita has this big war in it. It's sort of a Hindu version of Armaggedon. The third chapter of The Book of AL has the same flavor. I recall no disregardment nor any twisting of the passage ways. Were there sneers and snidnesses?
They could not possibly have been aimed at my self or my post. I merely cited an historical fact. The Solar Lodge viewpoint of chapter 3. Inner, unyielding warfare against any and all thoughts and emotions that are inconsistent with the Greak Work.
Oh wait! Are you talking about those pirates and brigands of Solar Lodge?
Haha.
Oh yes, I personally endorse this "inner war" concept. As to the outer conflicts ... well, that depends on where you are and what's going on around you. Personally (again ... sorry), I teach regular, ongoing classes to senior citizens on how to kill or diable an opponent with a single blow. So you'll not find me/we/us to be wimps.
But you'll also not be seeing me kick a single beggar in the teeth. I have fallen victim to the vice of compassion.

Michael, you know how almost any thread rapidly degenerates into factions and fakirs and funny comments? Yeah, that's it!


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2011 1:37 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
The toughest question that can be asked about the third chapter of Liber L is whether we should literally kill and torture as instructed; my response is, if you wish to win a life and death struggle, you had better do whatever it takes.

The prudent answer is that we do our true Wills, whatever that requires, no more and no less.


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 Anonymous
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08/11/2011 3:24 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
The toughest question that can be asked about the third chapter of Liber L is whether we should literally kill and torture as instructed; my response is, if you wish to win a life and death struggle, you had better do whatever it takes.

yes, such a tough question.


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Shiva
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08/11/2011 4:53 am  
"AEternitas" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
The toughest question that can be asked about the third chapter of Liber L is whether we should literally kill and torture as instructed; my response is, if you wish to win a life and death struggle, you had better do whatever it takes.

.

Note: Shiva did not ask this question. It's one of those quote-function mixups.

(some forms of) Martial Arts training requires the other person to throw the first punch.

Then he dies.

Literally.


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Walterfive
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29/11/2011 5:48 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
If you give a man a fish he will eat for one day, but if you teach a man to fish he will eat for life. What is so difficult about this?

Down here in Texas we see this a little differently: "If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, if you teach a man to fish he will sit around aimlessly all day with a beer in one hand, and a pole in the other."

The question, IMHO, has to begin with "What is Liber L/Liber AL/Liber Al Vel Legis?" And *then* the preconceptions can begin.
WTF is it? After 25 years of study, I still don't know. Every time I start to get a level of certainty to my opinion, new questions arise, and uncertainty re-establishes itself as the predominating opinion. Crowley was writing about Osiris prior to April 1904, and the formula of ABRAHADABRA  in 1900 or 1901.  He mentions "the Book of the Law" in his poem "Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum" in 1902!
However, I will not draw any conclusions from these facts (or factoids, as may be). Comprende? Liber L/Liber AL/Liber Al Vel Legis remains an enigma.

However, Los makes a good point:  if one starts with preconceived values and then twists the Book to mean something in line with one's preconceived values...what's the point???


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