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 Anonymous
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24/10/2012 4:42 pm  

Laws of Form, Wu-hsin or Shiva-darshana

You don't need hands to write...
Staring into a (the) (one) (some) void
I begin to realize why Crowley the Great Beast called writing magick
it hit me like the backhand of God a couple years back
melding into the Chapel Perilous, the demolition of the floodgates of my eighth circuit
wordless descriptionless state that I predicted weeks before
in some subconscious ramble that I like to call poetry
I'll repeat in hindsight:

"Forewarned and approaching an untransferable enlightenment. Diamond webs got mute spiders flowing from the secular tones of glorified assumptions. As for the proclamations holding chirps to mysterious isolation, at least the loophole in the water keeps it hanging during hikes."
-June 2010, "Chapter 4-Va-Chi-Na"

The leftovers of that state kept me in constant neurosis-a phobia of the infinite- (infiniphobia)
it was the heavy burden of a mysterious package I was forced to carry
until I reached the Sanctuary of the Opening, which exists only within oneself
-beyond and containing all words and images and sounds and smells-
and upon removing the wrapping I found an asomatous, dare I say divine?, gift
-beyond and containing all words and images and sounds and smells-
I suddenly knew and accepted why I was forced to live in a two year state of panic and paranoia
and I could only smile widely alone in the dark of my bedroom taking deep nasally breaths
finding little to do but scream wild neurological “thank you”s into nothingness
this being an eternity after the nature of everysingleatom thrust in to and out of my consciousness
as if I were injected with a needle the size of the proto-big bang universe
It is clear to me now why I penned this closing line of a failed piece of writing soon after:

"This will forever be the shittiest piece I’ve written about the greatest and most terrifying experience? Moment of clarity? to meld me into the essential sempiternal Somethingness that fabricates the boundless embrace. Fucking quasars. Fucking extra terrestrials, with their black toenail restoration operation. Trance, rave, call to them. Time-space sort of shin dig."
-August 2010, "Chapter 66-america."

I see now that the universe is a lot like God in that it works in mysterious ways
and what generous timing it has--two weeks till Prague.
and what deft timing it has-- a week after Kunming.
“The first cat to die from reverse culture shock” indeed!

[After viewing Fire in the Sky] As a child I had a frightening dream:
I was the last person in the world to have escaped alien abduction I was stowed away in a decaying wooden shack that sat like a bullseye in the middle of a circular grassy clearing the clearing was surrounded by a thick possibly endless forest and there was a living corpse propped up on the left side of the door as I looked out from within This corpse was a talker It told me many things which I cannot now remember but I have not forgotten its warning of the incoming aliens which had taken everyone on Earth and poked and prodded and probed and sent them back bearing their branding of black fingernails As if in sync bass notes began to rattle the small shack and I walked out of the entryway past my harbinger onto the old wooden porch to see every lab ratted human on Earth throwing a rave party the Guidance Rave I knew that the aliens had found exactly where I was and would soon arrive to take in their last test subject The rave served not only to pinpoint my location but also to celebrate the final phase in their extra terrestrial human engineering project but as I stood fearsome of the incoming mother ship I became suddenly aware that it was but a dream
“Wake up!” I told myself
“Wake up, you're dreaming!”
And I pulled myself from slumber just in time.

I believe now that this was the opening of my seventh circuit and that, of course, it came in sleep, subconsciously.
The living corpse, my Holy Guardian Angel?
But what was it that my hallowed corpse told me?
Further prophecies? A lecture on the current state of humanity as a band of domesticated primates
all caged and fighting and fucking and living simply for the pleasure of some extraterrestrial onlookers?
How is it that 15 years later I melded into some all-encompassing stateofmind
after returning from China
that would pull and push at my sanity
until 17 years later when I'd randomly come across
and be strangely, uncontrollably drawn into Prometheus Rising
through a sudden unwarranted fascination with the occult
the book which served as a box cutter to rip away
the manic packaging of the weight placed upon my psyche
from my journey through the Chapel Perilous
as a prelude to my move to Prague?
And as if this wasn't all too much of an existential orgasm
I read the first page dedication to be to my Billy Burroughs
as if to bring me back to where it all started.
The Everything and Nothing's proverbial cherry

It was now and then and six years past
Glimpsing it, drinking beer and smoking pot
“In the third floor blowhemian heli-pad of mindless manic cancer”
It was the dog and my partner and every intimacy
and hell and endless repetition of a single moment and paradise
It was my mind inside out inside and out
they were indistinguishable and it could have been yours
Life is composed of infinite cycles.
as if it ever started
as if it ever will start
as if it ever ended
as if it ever will end
the thought of a thought
this is a never ending poem
this is a never ending poem
this is a never ending poem

the end

this is a never ending poem


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Azidonis
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24/10/2012 6:27 pm  

Wonderful post, not sure I agree with the title.

Do you agree with the title? How do you know?


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 Anonymous
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24/10/2012 7:19 pm  

I think that the title serves as a sort of question. All the concepts pertain to various states of consciousness within different ideologies or ways of thinking, and so it is a reflection on the lack of surety I and, most likely, others are faced with when attempting to "define" these sorts of experiences or awakenings, as it affects different people in radically different ways.


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Azidonis
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24/10/2012 8:03 pm  
"Mason Parker" wrote:
I think that the title serves as a sort of question. All the concepts pertain to various states of consciousness within different ideologies or ways of thinking, and so it is a reflection on the lack of surety I and, most likely, others are faced with when attempting to "define" these sorts of experiences or awakenings, as it affects different people in radically different ways.

One way to go about it, is to apply the phrase "neti neti" (neither this, nor that), continually, without preference, remorse or pity, to every single thought.

Interestingly enough, it seems that when the "neti neti flag" is flown in the face of everything, there are some "things" that do not go away, some "things" that are beyond the ability of thought to perceive. From that point, which is really not a point at all, it's a whole different ballgame.

"Shivadarshana" means loosely "sight of Shiva". The trick is that if one sees Shiva, Shiva sees that one too. And, the Opening of the Eye of Shiva is the complete destruction of the individuality.

"Wu-shin" means "no-mindedness", and that is a very tricky term. It is tricky due to the fact that the only way one can know anything at all is through the use of mind, and mind really doesn't "go" anywhere. Then, what goes? What does the Opening of the Eye annihilate?

Then, we go into the concept of death, multiple ones, up until a "final death" (U.G.), one beyond the bounds of even Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

"You have to touch life in a spot never previously touched before." - U.G. Krishnamurti

This indicates at once both the futility of mind to comprehend the ordeal, and the particular nature of such an occurrence, which really does not occur since the mind cannot comprehend it within its experiencing structure. It indicates a completely new, original mode of being, and a completely different perspective than any perspective that has ever existed.

It is the Diamond Truth, wherein every facet is unique in and of itself, and every facet is itself not a part of the whole, but is the whole.

See sahaja sthiti - "Once Self-realisation has been attained, there is full and lasting knowledge of the Self. 'sahaja' means 'state' but this stage of samadhi is not a state - it is our true nature. It is permanent (sthiti meaning 'steady' or 'remaining'), unlike the earlier stages of samadhi. See nirvikalpa, samadhi, savikalpa, vikalpa."

[The following video link has audio for the visual impaired, and written English for the hearing impaired.]
[flash=250,250:2wdo4oul] http://www.youtube.com/v/n3jl7cm3LQ0[/flash:2wdo4oul]

The Book of the Law simplified the terminology, calling it "pure will". Of course, the simpler the term, the more easy it is to misunderstand.

Have you read Liber LXV recently? It may offer some particular insights to your situation.


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 Anonymous
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25/10/2012 9:12 pm  

Ah, many thanks for those source.  I haven't much looked into U.G., is there any further substantive listenings, books, interviews, etc. that you could lead me to? Or, is there a post in the forum that has already addressed this? I am quite enticed.

I am reading back through Liber LXV now and keeping an eye out for passages that may relate.


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Azidonis
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25/10/2012 10:19 pm  
"Mason Parker" wrote:
Ah, many thanks for those source.  I haven't much looked into U.G., is there any further substantive listenings, books, interviews, etc. that you could lead me to? Or, is there a post in the forum that has already addressed this? I am quite enticed.

I am reading back through Liber LXV now and keeping an eye out for passages that may relate.

Also try Liber VII.

For UG., you can pretty much find a bulk of his words with a Google search.

U.G. Google search
U.G. on YouTube
The Natural State
Mahesh Bhatt on U.G.
ugkrishnamurti.net

etc.

If you are thinking about books, try The Biology of Enlightenment: Unpublished Conversations of U. G. Krishnamurti After He Came Into The Natural State (1967-71).

Another solid recommendation, is Ken Wilber's The Spectrum of Consciousness (Quest Books)...

etc.


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frater-r
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28/01/2020 3:34 pm  

Yes, it seems that Sahaj Samadhi is the state of samadhi that corresponds with crossing the abyss.


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Jamie J Barter
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30/01/2020 2:28 am  
Posted by: @azidonis

See sahaja sthiti - "Once Self-realisation has been attained, there is full and lasting knowledge of the Self. 'sahaja' means 'state' but this stage of samadhi is not a state - it is our true nature. It is permanent (sthiti meaning 'steady' or 'remaining'), unlike the earlier stages of samadhi. See nirvikalpa, samadhi, savikalpa, vikalpa.

Posted by: @frater-r

Yes, it seems that Sahaj Samadhi is the state of samadhi that corresponds with crossing the abyss.

For the particular benefit of "newbies" especially, what is with this "earlier stages"?  Surely by definition and terminological exactitude there can only be one state of samadhi: as a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which as a result (the consciousness of) the experiencing subject becomes one with the object which is observed; they/it is therefore indivisible and there is "no difference" made between "any one thing & any other thing".  So the state of Samadhi corresponds precisely with "crossing the abyss" in this respect; never mind the superfluous Sahaja qualification.

With kudos on necromantickally resuscitating this thread after seven years,

NormaN Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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30/01/2020 7:42 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Surely by definition and terminological exactitude there can only be one state of samadhi: as a non-dualistic state of consciousness

Well, yes, you would think so, wouldn't you (or I)? But then these ferenghis went and added prefixes like Nirvakalpa and Vikalpa (etc), obviously just to confuse us naive westerners.

But even the Englishman crowley cited different types of samadhi, so where are we to go begging now?

However, I have read the above mumbo and have found the jumbo. Let it be first understood that I don't know poop about the various samadhis. They all have funny prefixes that are hard to read, let alone to pronounce.

But they do have different definitions, so they must include (of course) a loss of self, combined with "becoming one with [different things]: Atma, the Universe, the creation of said Universe, the End of The Universe, etc.

U.G. said he had experienced all these samadhis, but so what? they didn't help him. He also referred to these things as "Touch and Go." That is, one becomes none, watches the movie, then comes back to the same "I" and its conditions.

He also said if one wanted to experience these things, they could just take a drug. His point was that this saves one all those years of all those asanas and pranayamas. I am not making this up.

Both Azidonis and U.G. got around to describing a "state" or a "result" that comes along and it's not "touch and go." It's the real deal and it's permanent. U.G. then goes on to describe his state. "I am in samadhi all the time. If something happens out there, it happens in here. Not the Universe ... just whatever is in my field of perception."

He further gives an example of witnessing a violet anger-fear battle between a mother and her daughter. He felt every bit of it, and he was torn apart inside. He could see both their viewpoints, and he didn't know what to do.

So, this is an interesting discussion about the "state" at the end of the Path. It could be viewed as 8=3, but 8=3s are only in some form of samadhi when they're in samadhi; the rest of the time, their vehicle still has to work for a living. I suggest this permanent "state" is 10=1.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So the state of Samadhi corresponds precisely with "crossing the abyss" in this respect; never mind the superfluous Sahaja qualification.

It is at Da'ath, in the mid abyss, that Indra's Net, aka the Star Sponge, is beheld, and lo, there is no difference between any thing or another. This is perceived by the mentat (as a last thought before it kisses its donkey good bye). After that, one either falls back into "normal" consciousness, or moves on to Binah, which is a state of samadhi.

But then, some people are said to come back from that other shore. Said people are awesome, in one way or another, but their dork can still cause problems. So even if they're really good at being a "Master of samadhi," they're still playing "touch and go" between Terra and Nuit.

I'll still have to vote for 10=1 as being the said "permanent" state.

 


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frater-r
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30/01/2020 2:14 pm  

I agree with Frater Shiva that entheogens - especially in combination with magick and yoga - lead to this result (samadhi) more quickly. However, they still aren't a direct path. I had used entheogens more than 100 times before experiencing samadhi. Twenty years ago, this year, I began a magical retirement in N. California(Abramelin operation). I followed the instructions of the operation to the best of my ability. At the end I performed the conjurations and nothing happened. I said to myself, "I've had enough of this Magick shit, I'm done with it." That night, I took one hit of clean LSD and experienced Nirvikalpa samadhi(Pantanjali's term for this is "asampranjati"(samadhi without seed), Crowley preferred the term "atmadarshana" for the same experience). It was such an intense mystical experience that it unbalanced my psyche for a period of time(it was difficult to tell what was "real" or not for some time).


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frater-r
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30/01/2020 2:18 pm  

Here is a little more commentary on Sahaj samadhi that comports with this argument (that Sahaj samadhi is the functional equivalent of our idea of crossing the abyss(whether it is 8 = 3 or 10 = 1). Unfortunately FB software truncated the last sentence of the first image above which reads as follows,"the above description sounds like an excellent lights on / lights off account of the passage through Daath on the Tree Of Life."

 

f

image

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frater-r
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30/01/2020 2:19 pm  

Here is more commentary by Ken Wilber on this topic:

 

Image may contain: text

image

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frater-r
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30/01/2020 2:38 pm  

I respectfully disagree with Jamie J Barter's statement, "So the state of Samadhi corresponds precisely with "crossing the abyss" in this respect; never mind the superfluous Sahaja qualification."  In _Magick Without Tears_ Aleister Crowley made the following statement about trance states and samdhi, "Unless your universe is perfect - and perfection includes the idea of balance - how can you come even to Atmadarshana? Hindus may maintain that Atmadarshana, or at any rate Shivadarshana, is the equivalent of crossing the abyss. Beware of any such conclusions! The trances are simply isolated experiences, sharply cut off from normal thought-life. To cross the abyss is a permanent and fundamental revolution in the whole of one's being." Also, as noted above, I experienced Samadhi on manifestation - space, time, matter, and consciousness - the most ecstatic formulation of objectless samadhi in 1999, but I definitely had not crossed the abyss. In fact, Crowely equated Atmadarshana (the form of samadhi that I experienced) with K&C: "Beyond Vishnaurupadarshana, the vision of the form of Vishnu, beyond that yet loftier vision which corresponds in Hindu classification to our "Knowledge And Conversation Of The Holy Guardian Angel," that is called Atmadarshana, the vision (or apprehension is perhaps a much better word) of the universe as a single phenomenon, outside all limitations whether of time, space, casuality or what not." - AC, _Magick Without Tears_, pg. 56


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christibrany
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30/01/2020 3:04 pm  

Is there a term for a samadhi that occurs by itself without any postures meditation or drugs?

One time I felt a total loss of self and a yoga/all-are-one-being-ness in the military after formation when the sheer mass of humanity all looking the same, and acting the same, removed my separateness and merged me with everyone.  It only lasted a few seconds but it was very interesting.

 

This is totally different from the dyana I have felt after an intense dharana or asana session.


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Shiva
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30/01/2020 3:16 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

I experienced Samadhi on manifestation - ... in 1999, but I definitely had not crossed the abyss.

Well, while you were in that state/trance, you were "on the other side," as they say in mystical literature.

Assuming "you" disappeared, that was it. But then, as my thesis explained (above), you came back. This is the usual routine ... if assisted by some catalyst from the pharmacy.

Posted by: @frater-r

In fact, Crowely equated Atmadarshana (the form of samadhi that I experienced) with K&C: "Beyond Vishnaurupadarshana, the vision of the form of Vishnu, beyond that yet loftier vision which corresponds in Hindu classification to our "Knowledge And Conversation Of The Holy Guardian Angel,"

Said K&C takes place at Tiphareth. But 777 lists atmadarshana at Kether. So somethin' don't line up here. The line-up is made clearer is we include the "G" Atu. Via the Priestess, the mag/myst at Tiphareth has a chat with Atma at Kether. So we can make this all fit into our miniscule mentats.

It is possible for (even) a Probationer to get into these states with (as UG suggested) a few micrograms of the latest legal catalyst. They cross the Abyss, for a short time (measured in hours one can count on the fingers of one hand). But they come back. We always all come back.

The mag/myst at Tiphareth may experience different "styles" of samadhi, depending on which path is used for the conduit. But we always come back to the same mundanium ... until, of course, we don't come back. If we die, then that's it (bye bye). If our vehicle re-animates, then we can claim bodhisattva status, which would usually, more or less, be stupid.

 


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frater-r
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30/01/2020 4:58 pm  

@christibrany

I don't think there are qualitative differences with regard to samadhi just because drugs are used...samadhi is samadhi, but there is a lesser known Tantric method of "moving kundalini" called aushadi that involves the use of "herbs."


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frater-r
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30/01/2020 5:03 pm  

@shiva

Yes, agreed. It was a temporary experience of non-dual consciousness. The basis of my argument that I hadn't "crossed the abyss' is Crowley's statement, "The trances are simply isolated experiences, sharply cut off from normal thought-life. To cross the abyss is a permanent and fundamental revolution in the whole of one's being."  All of the other material that I quoted above about Sahaj samadhi also seems to indicate that the state that we are referring to is more or less permanent - which accords with Crowley's assertion that one who has crossed the abyss is a "master of samadhi".


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frater-r
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30/01/2020 5:10 pm  

 Please note the similarities between Crowley's instructions in Liber XVI, Liber Turris vel Domus Dei sub figurâ and the description of Sahaj samadhi above. Sahaj samadhi is defined as "a condition of ongoing spontaneous awareness that rests continually in the universal awareness or emptiness before thoughts arise." In Liber XVI, Crowley provides students with methodology for achieving annihilation of thoughts before they arise: 1. First Point. The student should first discover for himself the apparent position of the point in his brain where thoughts arise, if there be such a point.

If not, he should seek the position of the point where thoughts are judged.

2. Second Point. He must also develop in himself a Will of Destruction, even a Will of Annihilation. It may be that this shall be discovered at an immeasurable distance from his physical body. Nevertheless, this must he reach, with this must he identify himself even to the loss of himself.

3. Third Point. Let this Will then watch vigilantly the point where thoughts arise, or the point where they are judged, and let every thought be annihilated as it is perceived or judged. «This is also the “Opening of the Eye of Shiva.” ED.»

4. Fourth Point. Next, let every thought be inhibited in its inception.

5. Fifth Point. Next, let even the causes or tendencies that if unchecked ultimate in thoughts be discovered and annihilated.

6. Sixth and Last Point. Let the true Cause of All «Mayan, the Magician, or Mara. Also The Dweller on the Threshold in a very exalted sense. ED.» be unmasked and annihilated.

7. This is that which was spoken by wise men of old time concerning the destruction of the world by fire; yea, the destruction of the world by fire.

8. [This and the following verses are of modern origin.] Let the Student remember that each Point represents a definite achievement of great difficulty.

9. Let him not then attempt the second until he be well satisfied of his mastery over the first.


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Shiva
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30/01/2020 6:35 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

[AC sez] - "The trances are simply isolated experiences, sharply cut off from normal thought-life. To cross the abyss is a permanent and fundamental revolution in the whole of one's being."

Correcto!

Posted by: @frater-r

Crowley's assertion that one who has crossed the abyss is a "master of samadhi".

Correct and Caramba, tooAn 8=3 operates via intuition, which is allied with samadhi (otherwise it wouldn't be intuition). A "Master of Samadhi" would be able to enter samadhi, or turn on the intuition, at will. When not in said "state," the dork vehicle is just another human being, subject to the usual, terran laws of cause and effect.

An 8=3 does indeed have a permanent connection with Binah, also known as the Buddhic Plane. It is an 8th, quantum, neurocircuit imprint. Nothing is ever the same. But the vehicle is still the same; obviously, some physiological, neural pathway has been activated.

It becomes a matter of being here and "there" at the same time. But even then, synchronizing the two (here & there) still requires a willed act by the vehicle.

The 10=1 gets all of the above in the 4x webmaster special, and he or she is here and there at the same time, essentially all the time.

Posted by: @frater-r

Liber XVI

Yeah, this is clear enough. Too bad it doesn't work. It is an example of the mind stopping the mind, which we have discussed previously on multiple threads, and the general concensus (as I remember) was that the mind cannot stop itself.

I have developed a technique wherein the first move is an act of Will. It's not the mind, although the mind sets it in motion. I detailed the whole deal in written lingo in some recent book, and made it lively in living color in an animated video. The technique is called StopLine, and the tatwa I have found most effective is just like playing here in the LAShTAL Octagon ...

Royalty Free Stop Sign Clip Art, Vector Images ...

 


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Jamie J Barter
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31/01/2020 5:19 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

I followed the instructions of the [Abramelin] operation to the best of my ability. At the end I performed the conjurations and nothing happened. I said to myself, "I've had enough of this Magick shit, I'm done with it." That night, I took one hit of clean LSD and experienced [the business]

Are you saying then that none of the preparations of the operation beforehand were of any use in that case and your achievements such as they were, were all the work of the entheogens?  (Also, was it the 6 month or the time-economical 3 month operation?)

Posted by: @frater-r

samadhi is samadhi,

Yes, quite so!  That was the basic point I was making, I believe... (& not other)

Posted by: @shiva

If our vehicle re-animates, then we can claim bodhisattva status, which would usually, more or less, be stupid.

Yes!  "More or less", until one considers just what are the alternatives?  And whether it is possible for a supposedly enlightened being to be happy (or even reasonably content) in nirvana somewhere whilst knowing other sentient life forms are themselves suffering would rather tend to put a bummer on proceedings.

I had written some more on the other aspect of frater-r's discussion (re. the actual impermanency of his apparently permanent "stage" or "state", in a nutshell) but as it started to get a bit too wordy and hence irrelevant, after a while I desisted and had some tea instead,

N Joy

 


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Shiva
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31/01/2020 6:43 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Are you saying then that none of the preparations of the operation beforehand were of any use in that case and your achievements such as they were, were all the work of the entheogens?

That's what UG said. "Just take a drug. No need for all those asanas an pranayamas.'

However, I'm not UG, and I say the prep work helps to center the results.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Also, was it the 6 month or the time-economical 3 month operation?

There is no 3-month Abramelin operation. It is 6 months exactly.

There is, of course, the VIIIth AEthyr instruction, which is 3 moons, but it is not associated with Abramelin the Mage or Abraham the Je3w.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

just what are the alternatives?

There is only one alternative to claiming Bodhisattva status, and that would be Not claiming Bodhisattva status, which is smarter than claiming said status.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

happy (or even reasonably content) in nirvana somewhere whilst knowing other sentient life forms are themselves suffering

Are you particularly dense this morning, or afternoon, on Brexit in Britain day?

If one is nirvanaed, one does not "know" anything. There is no awareness of "other sentients." One has checked out of the Hotel Incarnatio.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

after a while I desisted and had some tea instead,

Anicca, annica - everything passes away.

 


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31/01/2020 8:05 pm  

From my experience Samadhi describe what is sanscrit word for (to Unite with the Lord/Adhi) Knowledge and Conversation with Holly Guardian Angel. H.G.A. is Adhi. Am I wrong in this? 


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frater-r
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31/01/2020 8:58 pm  

@jamiejbarter

I am fairly certain that I set myself up for samadhi with the Abramelin Opertation. That was why I mentioned that I had more than 100 such psychedelic trips before this one(and I should have mentioned that none of them were even close to this one in terms of profundity - even though I had taken much larger doses in the past. I think that the magical retirement had sort of eroded certain rigid cognitive structures and perceptual gestalts to the point where they were easily transcended with the addition of the chemical. I think this is also what happened with Crowley. One of Crowley's first experiences with samadhi happened after ingesting hashish, but he had finally completed the Abramelin Operation about one month before(sept 1906), so the hashish may have been just enough to breakthrough.


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frater-r
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31/01/2020 8:59 pm  
Posted by: @nassah

From my experience Samadhi describe what is sanscrit word for (to Unite with the Lord/Adhi) Knowledge and Conversation with Holly Guardian Angel. H.G.A. is Adhi. Am I wrong in this? 

Your comment comports with what Crowley said about the state of Atmadarshana (samadhi) being the Hindu trance state that's equivalent to our K&C.


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frater-r
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31/01/2020 9:02 pm  

@shiva

Crowley changed the length of the Abramelin Operation to 93 days, and one of the other translations of the original manuscript is longer than 6 months, but I think most of us have read the version that's 6 months, and that's what I did.


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Jamie J Barter
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31/01/2020 9:19 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

However, I'm not UG, and I say the prep work helps to center the results.

Nor Frater-b either, mon brave, to whom the query was originally addressed!

Posted by: @shiva

There is, of course, the VIIIth AEthyr instruction, which is 3 moons, but it is not associated with Abramelin the Mage or Abraham the Jew.

I wasn't explicitly referring to Abramelin and was referring (implicitly) to the 8th Aethyr "short cut by 3 months" ,operation via AC, which I assumed would be inferred.

Posted by: @shiva

There is only one alternative to claiming Bodhisattva status, and that would be Not claiming Bodhisattva status, which is smarter than claiming said status.

I suppose it also depends on what one takes "claiming" to indicate, and there would be two alternatives to that: "claiming" internally to oneself but Not announcing it & availing oneself of the 4th power of the Sphinx, or "claiming" it & letting it be known to others, for whatever reason (e.g., if you [=someone] wanted to be a World Teacher, or Messiah, or something like that.)

Posted by: @shiva

Are you particularly dense this morning, or afternoon, on Brexit in Britain day?

No more than usual I think.  Although I have partaken of certain libations to Dionysus & co., so maybe that might account for it.

Posted by: @shiva

If one is nirvanaed, one does not "know" anything. There is no awareness of "other sentients." One has checked out of the Hotel Incarnatio.

Yes, perhaps if one wished to nitpick I agree with you, but I think you knew what I was broadly getting at even if my expression on this occasion might not have been "tip-top"...

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

and had some tea instead,

Herbal, of course.

N Joy

 

 


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Shiva
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01/02/2020 5:42 am  

Ahdi (adi) is primordial consciousness. it's out in the Ains, somewhat beyond the concept of a HGA.


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Shiva
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01/02/2020 6:04 am  
Posted by: @frater-r

Crowley said about the state of Atmadarshana (samadhi) being the Hindu trance state that's equivalent to our K&C.

777 lists Atmadarshana at Kether. Do you have a reference for K&C being somewhere other than Tiphareth?

Posted by: @frater-r

Crowley changed the length of the Abramelin Operation to 93 days

Do you have a reference for Abramelin being 93 days?

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Yes, perhaps if one wished to nitpick I agree with you

No nitpicking. Nothing is nothing without qualities.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

but I think you knew what I was broadly getting at even if my expression on this occasion might not have been "tip-top"...

Of course I knew what you were broadly getting at. I'm just picking the nits out of the details.

Let's clear this all up: A Bodhisattva is One who is offered the opportunity to leave (enter nirvana), but refuses the invitation and returns to la-la land to assist other seekers who are lost. He/she does not enter Nirvana.

Even in this definition [above ^], there is nit room, because the Buddha, peace and blessings be upon his name even though he went to Paranirvana, indicated that one could enter nirvana, yet still be hanging around la-la. He/she does not enter permanent nirvana 'til he/she dies dead, and that "final act" is The entry into Paranirvana, which is permanent.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

and had some tea instead,

Herbal, of course.

Dionysus was not into herbal tea, or insipid tea. He laced his fluid intake with grapes. Please indicate exactly what you were drinking ... and be certain to post a scan of the doctor's prescription ... so we can rest assured that you are not pulling some RTC-style sideshow.

 


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frater-r
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01/02/2020 4:06 pm  

@shiva

777 lists Atmadarshana at Kether. Do you have a reference for K&C being somewhere other than Tiphareth?

I take that attribution from 777 with a grain of salt. Crowley referred to ,or alluded to, K&C aas the trance state corresponding with K&C numerous places (although I agree with you that the adept in Tiphareth is experiencing the untiy of Kether through the path of Gimel - so this argument may be revolving around semantics more than anything else):

"The Vision of the Universal Peacock--Atmadarshana. The confusion of the Mind, and the Perception of its self-contradiction." - Aha

"An even more advanced instruction, but still connected with the question of the ego and the non-ego. The phenomenon described is perhaps Atmadarshana, which is still a delusion of personality; for although the ego is still destroyed in the universe, and the universe in it, there is a distinct though exceedingly subtl tendency to sum up the experience as ego" - Crowley's commentaries on Blavatsky's _The Voice In The Silence_

 "Beyond Vishnaurupadarshana, the vision of the form of Vishnu, beyond that yet loftier vision which corresponds in Hindu classification to our "Knowledge And Conversation Of The Holy Guardian Angel" - MWT

"The million of the worlds game - the peacock multiform with each eye of its fur a mirror wherein also another peacock - everything thus." **This is Crowley's description of atmadarshana from a diary entry from January 1907**

In two of these quotes, Crowley describes Atmadarshana as the vision of the univesal peacock(or something close to that). This is ,of course, an attribution of Tiphareth. In the quote from Blavatsky's _The Voice In The Silence_, Crowley said that Atmadarshana is still a delusion of personality - which doesn't accord with the notion of it correspoding to Kether. The quote from MWT, which was penned much late in life, and ,perhaps, is reflective of more mature / evolved thinking on the topic, attributes the trance directly to K&C. 

I personally see this trace state as an initiatory experience ,which is a radically different way of perceiving the universe(especially ideas of self - not-self) as the beginning of adepthood. This is a trance state, and when it ends, the newly minted adept has an understanding  that is far from perfect; it will continue to evolve through the following grades. Certainly my opinion is colored by the fact that I experienced Atmdarshana right at the end of my Abramelin Operation. I think that anyone that is claiming 5 = 6, but hasn't had this experience, may be deluding themself(or "talking to imaginary friends").  I realize that not everyone agrees with my position - the Praemonstrator of my own lineage of AA isn't in full agreement - he stresses the "conversation" aspect of it, and says that the trance state can take various forms.

Crowley changed the length of the Abramelin Operation to 93 days?

If my memory serves me correctly, _The Mystical And Magical System Of The A.'.A.'._ , by James Eshelman, says that Crowley changed the length of the operation to 93 days. I read the book many years ago and no longer have it to site(btw, I'm not involved with Eshelman's group either).

 

 

 

 


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frater-r
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01/02/2020 5:13 pm  

@shiva

After thinking about your question more, I attribute Atmadarshana to Kether, but I also attribute this trance state to K&C, for the reasons mentioned up-thread(the adept is in Tiphareth, but is experiencing Kether through the path of Gimel).


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Shiva
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01/02/2020 5:17 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

this argument may be revolving around semantics more than anything else):

Well, it's not really an argument, at least not with me, because (yes) we're just fiddling with semantics.

Thanks for the references. I find that AC likes to attribute HGA all over the place, which is strange when there really is no "angel." From the several folks I have met and known who have passed through, or were in, the Inner Order phase, not one has admitted to seeing or conversing with an angel. Oh, they had established a form of dialog (sometimes spoken in English, but sometimes a more vague interaction. But the result is still a form of "guidance."

The real dividing line is at the Abyss. Below that, one has themselves and something else that is perceived as "other."Even as the dialog/conversation is takling place, as it does at intervals throughout the Inner Order phase, the recipient has (or should have) a sneaking suspicion that they are talking to themselves.

Above the Abyss, there is no "other." But there is still a sense of "I Am," which is the viewpoint of the universal self, Atma, or the Atman. This is also known as the Monad, a term AC didn't use, but is found in Theosophy (and ancient Greece).

Finally, the initiate gets into Shivatmadarshana, wherein even the lofty Alma-Monad-Universal Self is seen as an illusion, as just another manifestation of the mind.

The bottom line to all this (or is it the top line?) is that all these concepts are just mental aberrations. I am the first to admit that said aberrations are useful and valid ... at their own level of manifestation. I am suspicious of any verbal or written account of interactions that supposedly take place, or have taken place, above the Abyss, because up/out/in there, there is no form ... so any story based on form, of any kind, is simply one's mind painting a picture about a formless experience.

Posted by: @frater-r

I think that anyone that is claiming 5 = 6, but hasn't had this experience, may be deluding themself (or "talking to imaginary friends").

Agreed.

Posted by: @frater-r

he stresses the "conversation" aspect of it, and says that the trance state can take various forms.

Shall I agree or disagree with him?

In agreement, I agree that said "trance" can take various forms. It all comes down to the fact that any vision/trance is colored by the thoughtform-making capacity of the individual. We don't all see the exact same thing at any given level.

Personally, I agree with the conversation part, as it has been my experience to enter into a dialog in perfect, unaccented English ... without a British (or other national) accent. But other folks who have obviously experienced the trance/vision, have not had a two-way dialog that they can write/recount on paper.

So I disagree with the mandatory "conversation, and I am forced to admit that the "conversation" can (also) take various forms.

Posted by: @frater-r

James Eshelman, says that Crowley changed the length of the operation to 93 days.

Well, the VIIIth AEthyr certainly changed to HGA invocation operation to three months, with Abramelin not being mentioned. Sometimes some people confuse the HGA operation with the Abramelin operation. Granted, Abraham, writing about Abramelin, was an HGA operation. But there are other approaches to the HGA concept without citing Abramelin.

It's a good thing i have other ways to measure an individual's progress than by going by what they say, or quote, or claim, because these details are rather detailed, and they are subject to confusion.

Posted by: @frater-r

btw, I'm not involved with Eshelman's group either

I'm glad to hear that. Jim and I had a little run-in, so I'm not worshipping in that part of town. However, it seems "is" lineage seems clean enough for government work, so if you want to quit your present line and go over to live it up in Los Angeles, there will be no karmic debt.


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frater-r
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03/02/2020 9:36 am  

@shiva

Yes, Crowley's descriptions of K&C were all over the place. At this point, I see a common thread running through most of it though. For instance, he attributes it to Atmadarshana at times, and describes it more as linkage between the conscious and subconscious minds to Frank Bennet, the latter finding expression and articulation through the former. At this point it's well known that some yogic methods(pranayamama etc.) synch the right and left brain ,and lead to profound unitive states of consciousness. Crowley's ideas about K&C are descriptors of various integral processes happening within the psyche, including Atmadarshana - the epitome of integration

Your insight into some of the trance states above is so lucid that it actually caused me to chuckle!


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Shiva
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03/02/2020 4:29 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

Yes, Crowley's descriptions of K&C were all over the place. At this point, I see a common thread running through most of it though.

The Dev's in the Details; all these trance states, and then correlating them with a western chat with the messenger invoked/sent-by what we call the higher self, true self, universal self, Atma, the monad, et cetera and so forth.

The funny thing is that I passed through the curriculum without having the slightest problem regarding who sent who and who talked to what. That's probably because I didn't have Sanskrit or differentiations/shades of samadhi on my menu. I knew about atmadarshana and shivatmadarshana only because AC had written briefly about them in some passage I wrote. Today, I know nothing more, and perhaps even less. But none of this had any effect, one way or another, on the dialog that is sometimes known as K&C.

Posted by: @frater-r

Your insight into some of the trance states above is so lucid that it actually caused me to chuckle!

I don't know poop from a pop-sickle. Although I did all the labor of preparation (asanas, pranayamas, banishing, razoring, etc (you know the list), it finally came about that it wasn't me who chased or called the angel, but the angel, who was not an angel, came to me. We had a "lucid" discussion about a few things, in perfect, unaccented, mid-American English ... on (several) more than one occasion.

Regarding (not Regardie) AC's penchant for being "all over the place" in more than one area, but mostly this HGA/Aiwass thing and its extensions, I think we all agree that he was not perfectly consistent. Personally, I maintain that the Libers are The Scriptures (to be tested and evaluated, of course). His Comments, Commentaries, and (especially) his more informal Chat-mode, have such a wide variance that we must suspect he was just demonstrating the Law of Opposites. This is the jungle that each person must cut their way through.

 


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ignant666
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03/02/2020 5:09 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

I don't know poop from a pop-sickle.

At the risk of stating the obvious (i am a retired college professor after all), the map is not the territory. The traditional maps (alchemy, Xian mysticism, quabala, A.'. A.'., Hindu trances, the several systems of Buddhist trances, etc.) overlap a lot.

777-ing them together is an interesting intellectual exercise, and AC was arguably the first to do this, which is one of his major contributions to occult/mystical/spiritual work.

But it all comes down to this in the end: if you diligently do stuff (doesn't seem to matter what stuff) for a while, results will occur, though not necessarily right away. The results seem to occur in a certain order for most folks.

I agree with Shiva that the Libers, basically AC's "how-to" stuff, are more important and more useful than any of the rest; i would also put TBOL in this category. I would include AL and the rest of the "holy books" as more some of AC's "results", interesting but less valuable.


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Shiva
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03/02/2020 5:28 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

i would also put TBOL in this category. I would include AL and the rest of the "holy books" as more some of AC's "results", interesting but less valuable.

Said Holy Books are already Libers, by designation, and thus are The Scriptures themselves, in a certain fashion. But, yes, I agree that the How-to-do-it publications (mostly Class D for "Dangerous") are more valuable than, say, Wine drinking with Adonai, or the incomprehensible Trigrammaton.

The Book of Lies, regardless of its official Classification, is a category in classification all by itself. There are more "keys" per square inch than in any other Liber, per my personal opinion.


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ignant666
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03/02/2020 5:57 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Class D for "Dangerous"

This reminds me of the old NYC saying about the avenues east of First Ave in the East Village/Lower East Side, which used to be very dangerous before gentrification, and got worse fast as you went east, and up the alphabet: "If you go to Avenue A, you're adventurous; Avenue B, you're brave; Avenue C, you're crazy; Avenue D, you're dead."


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frater-r
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03/02/2020 6:25 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
 

 

 

"I don't know poop from a pop-sickle."

 

Well, in any case, you seem to be familiar with the states that I'm referring to. Yes, all of these things, dhyana, samadhi, Atmadarshana(and everything else that happens) are just modifications of the mind (which is the central idea of Raja yoga), anyone that understands the full import of that idea would enter a state of samadhi.


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frater-r
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03/02/2020 6:37 pm  

@ignant666

"But it all comes down to this in the end: if you diligently do stuff (doesn't seem to matter what stuff) for a while, results will occur, though not necessarily right away. The results seem to occur in a certain order for most folks."

I agree. 


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christibrany
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03/02/2020 7:17 pm  

Speaking of a 'certain order of results.'

The more you do the more mental and astral it gets and the less physical it gets in my opinion.  Then it stops being mental and just kind of ..'is' until you are back to being physical again. 

If that makes sense.


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frater-r
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03/02/2020 7:53 pm  

@ignant666

Just read your reply about the village. I was in the West Village this weekend...it sure is gentrified now!!


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ignant666
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03/02/2020 8:40 pm  

The West Village has been pretty nice since AC lived there before WW I. It got somewhat seedy in the '70s-'80s, but it gentrified in the early 20th century, and mostly stayed that way.

The Lower East Side, aka "the LES", aka "Loisaida" ["Lower East Side" in a Puerto Rican accent], aka the East Village, is basically everything south of 14th street down to Chinatown, and east of Third Ave (which turns into the Bowery further south). Some would say the East Village is from 14th to Houston, and the LES is from Houston to Chinatown, but i am not one of them. Two names for the same place.

It was always a poor/ghetto area before about 1990, first Irish until the late 19th century, then eastern European Jews and Italians, then, after WW II, eastern Europeans of all religions and Puerto Ricans. It was big with beatniks in the '50s, hippies in the '60s (this is when the term "East Village" arose), punks in the '70s, more punks and also skinheads in the '80s, and hyper-gentrification from the '90s to present.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming, with apologies for the pedantic, and parochial, digression.


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Shiva
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04/02/2020 9:57 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

... you seem to be familiar with the states that I'm referring to.

Yeah, I'm familiar with them. But here's the funny part: I have no idea what I wrote. I copied it because I felt there was some interesting ground covered. It's now waiting on a jump drive for transfer to the "other" Borg terminal, possibly to go in as an Appendix in the book now underway.

Other than that, we can line all these states up, and when we're done examining them all, only one remains as the final bottom line: Shivatmadarshana. The End of the Worls that Jamie and I are betting on (or off). It is subtitled, Nirvana, the Void, or Pralaya, but it means all that other stuff is an illusionary product of the mind. The only saving grace for sentience is the fact that it's cyclic. That is, it all goes up in smoke, but the essence of "things" is merely in a resting state, and it will reform when the alcohol level in Shiva's bloodstream gets back down towards "normal" (low enough to start putting names, numbers, and colors on "things" (any things).

Posted by: @christibrany

Then it stops being mental and just kind of ..'is' until you are back to being physical again. 

Right. A reflection on a smaller scale of what I just wrote. Try the three I approach to tracking this cycle. On a daily basis or in reference to the Universe.


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christibrany
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05/02/2020 7:17 pm  

@shiva

 

What is the 'three I approach' ? 

 


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Shiva
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05/02/2020 10:20 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

What is the 'three I approach' ? 

Posted by: @shiva

A reflection on a smaller scale of WHAT I JUST WROTE. Try the three I approach to tracking this cycle. On a daily basis or in reference to the Universe.

WHAT I JUST WROTE.

(The 3 gurus, gunas)


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Azidonis
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08/02/2020 1:06 am  

Sahaja Sthiti, the Natural State. Since I've become aware of UG in 2012, I've only come across him saying this once in Sanskrit. It was written. I haven't seen him say it in any of the videos I've watched. I have not exhausted all available material on UG. UG was very intent on using plain language, but he did refer to his state as the natural state.

 

In Samadhi when the lights go off, there's no observer to witness the lack of light. Both subject and object are absorbed. Samadhi can occur under a controlled environment, such as one's Asana. Samadhi can also occur in an uncontrolled environment.

In a controlled environment, one is attempting samadhi. We are told to trick ourselves in so many ways as we tame our monkey brains but essentially, one is going towards samadhi.

In an uncontrolled environment, samadhi comes towards one. Envision the blue and red Hexagram. A walking, waking state samadhi would possibly qualify every time as samadhi in an uncontrolled environment.

 

For UG, he would say that UG only comes into play by necessity, to function sanely and intelligently in the world. That he is there, but that he doesn't have any control anymore. This indicates a complete and total surrender. To what, UG would say he had no way of knowing. It was beyond knowledge and comprehension, but very clear to him as he was absolutely certain, and would talk about the certainty he had often. He said that thought was the instrument, and there is no other instrument by which one can know anything. So the state he was in was untouched by thought, ie above Da'ath. UG also said that he would "go into" samadhi, ie controlled environment samadhi whenever there was no need for him to do anything. He would "drop dead" as he would say. This indicates that UG was not in full brain shutdown mode at all the time. The brain had to be functioning in order for him to function sanely and intelligently, but mechanically. He would talk about walking around while in samadhi. They asked him if he ran into walls, and he said no that the body knows how to protect itself. These are not normal waking consciousness everyday things for most people, but it was for UG.

 

The Work of the 8=3 is to Cross the Abyss. It is the Work of Da'ath in one way, but ultimately of Binah, as Babalon is a huge Key and help. It's no small Task, but Samadhi is a Godsend for it. Understanding the nature of samadhi allows for more samadhi.

 

If "normal waking consciousness" is ___________________________

Then "normal waking consciousness with a samadhi" is _________       _________

Now imagine more samadhi ____  ________    ____   __   ________   _________

 

You get the point. The lines are "normal waking consciousness". The different spaces are gaps in real time. If there is "normal waking consciousness" along with samadhi, how do we draw that? _____ (nope) or                 (nope)? Maybe ~~~~~~~~~~~~?

 

So if 8=3 is this ________  _________    _________   ________

And 9=2 is this ____        ___       ___ __      __    __    _____

then 10=1 is this ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or Tao.

 

Note that less and less time is spent in "normal waking consciousness" and more and more time is spent in samadhi, in some form. But even UG said the natural state is acasual, said that he was riding the tiger and accidentally fell off, accidentally touched a live wire, and that he has no way of knowing what happened to him with the changes he underwent. That the stranglehold of thought had been broken. That UG the person no longer had any influence anymore. After the Calamity occurred, UG had to constantly ask Valentine "what's that", "cow", on basic stuff. He did this for a long time, like he had to train his mind to function in the world again. Anyway, its acasual.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jl7cm3LQ0


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Serpent 252
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08/02/2020 2:36 am  
Posted by: @azidonis

So if 8=3 is this ________  _________    _________   ________

And 9=2 is this ____        ___       ___ __      __    __    _____

then 10=1 is this ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or

UG: "or what? what's that?"

AZ: "Tao."

UG: "Cow?"

AZ: "No cow, it's Tao."

UG: "oh, yes, Tao, of course."

 

Great post, Azidonis. All the best.


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Jamie J Barter
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08/02/2020 2:50 am  
Posted by: @azidonis

So if 8=3 is this ________  _________    _________   ________

And 9=2 is this ____        ___       ___ __      __    __    _____

then 10=1 is this ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or 

Tao ########################################### ?

Netty netty!

Nitey nitey

N Joy


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Serpent 252
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09/02/2020 5:55 pm  

I've been "thinking" (i.e., processing in the background of "my" mind) about this post & suddenly I've remembered "a factor infinite & unknown" so now i have a questions:

Does this factor x ("a factor infinite & unknown") applies to an 8=3 & above? If yes does it applies only to "normal waking consciousness"? And so on, in that vein...


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Shiva
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09/02/2020 7:36 pm  
Posted by: @serpent252

Does this factor x ("a factor infinite & unknown") applies to an 8=3 & above? If yes does it applies only to "normal waking consciousness"? And so on, in that vein...

Yes, Infinite etc applies to Binah & up.

No, normal wack con is not Binah. It is Chesed and below.

And so on? Infinite doo-dads into minds do not fit.

Minds do not grasp infinity.


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Jamie J Barter
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09/02/2020 7:49 pm  
Posted by: @serpent252

Does this factor x ("a factor infinite & unknown") applies to an 8=3 & above? If yes does it applies only to "normal waking consciousness"?

Are you sure that you didn't mean to put "If no" there? (In which case the answer would also have been "no"...)

(Not at all),

N Joy


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