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Shiva
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29/03/2020 2:58 am  
Posted by: @duck

That's sort of it I think, not sure if "ticks" is unintentional or one of your "private" jokes.

It's one of my unclever typos for "tricks."


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The HGA of a Duck
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29/03/2020 3:13 am  

Well, there were all these missing/extra Rs around, it jumped from ticks to rDzogchen.


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Shiva
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29/03/2020 7:15 am  
Posted by: @duck

rDzogchen

But that's real word, not a typo. Do you know the meaning or significance or pronunciation of the mysterious "r?"

I believe it's rDogschen.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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29/03/2020 7:57 am  

Yes I got from that post (wherever it was) that its a real word though I hadn't seen it before. I don't know any Tibetan pronunciation (doubt I'll ever learn) but it seems to have these transliteration differences that show up to confuse people. As far as I can tell its just a different transliteration, same meaning. This "academic" side of things isn't really my thing.

I have a "ducky" way of looking at things like "planes". I don't know what the correct term for this "duckiness" is but as this is a "Thelemic" forum I may be able to communicate it by calling it the "& that strangely" factor.

planes

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mal
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29/03/2020 8:30 am  
Posted by: @shiva

UG had no writings. He wrote nothing.

Pedantic semantic avoidance. Point was hanging onto UG-ly words.

Good thing there wasn't a typo for you to cling to or that might have led to some hypocrisy.

Posted by: @shiva

How much is the fee

Karma and no credit given.

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


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dom
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29/03/2020 12:58 pm  

@shiva

 

Isn't it difficult for someone to distinguish between a Neurosomatic high and what  has been classed as Samadhi?  


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Shiva
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29/03/2020 5:34 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Isn't it difficult for someone to distinguish between a Neurosomatic high and what  has been classed as Samadhi?  

You are comparing the 5th circuit with the 8th. Wiki says: "When this [5th] circuit is activated, a non-conceptual feeling of well-being arises."

Now one can turn the 5th circuit on with a bit on cannabis (or pranayama, or other practices), but during the resulting euphoria, one is still one's egocentric self.

It takes large amounts of LSD or Ketamine to unlock the 8th circuit, which is the realm of samadhi. There is ego-loss involved. It may display flashes of light and slipping into what might be termed "other dimensions."

So, personally, I have no problem discriminating between a pleasant euphoria and The End of the World (narcissistic nirvana).

 


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dom
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29/03/2020 5:45 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

 

It takes large amounts of LSD or Ketamine to unlock the 8th circuit,

 

Oh really?  So pre 20th- century man never opened this circuit?  


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ignant666
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29/03/2020 5:55 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

large amounts of LSD or Ketamine

Or DMT. Though that is a bit, um, hectic. The crack of psychedelics.

Years ago, a fellow messenger/drug dealer at the courier service where we both worked sold me a half gram of 5-MeO-DMT, several times more potent than the plain-vanilla variety, and then legal. I found i had to put John Coltrane's A Love Supreme on full blast before i took a hit. Two years later, i sold almost all the half gram back to the dude.

Let us say that i like drugs as much as the next man, but i know where to draw the line (as a heroin-addicted pal once said about my weed-smoking, going on "I mean, it's a plant- it hasn't even been purified in a lab or anything.")

PLEASE NOTE THAT SOME PSYCHEDELICS ARE ILLEGAL IN SOME PLACES. DO NOT DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL. SHIVA AND I ARE JUST ELDERLY DRUG-FIENDS ANYWAY.


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Shiva
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29/03/2020 6:00 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Oh really?  So pre 20th- century man never opened this circuit?  

Don't be stupid silly. You know the basic requirements as well as me, or any otherguess ass. All of the higher 4 circuits can be unlocked with the usual raja yoga routines. The length of the practice required goes up with as the circuits go up. The higher circuits require decades of such practice. I cited pharmaceutical activations because they are quick, and many folks can easily tell the difference between simply feeling good and losing their sense of self.

However, some people take a few hits of pot and then proclaim the birth of a master of the temple. This is not differentiation - it is illusionary confusion.


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dom
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29/03/2020 6:10 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Oh really?  So pre 20th- century man never opened this circuit?  

Don't be stupid silly. You know the basic requirements as well as me, or any otherguess ass. All of the higher 4 circuits can be unlocked with the usual raja yoga routines. The length of the practice required goes up with as the circuits go up. The higher circuits require decades of such practice. I cited pharmaceutical activations because they are quick, and many folks can easily tell the difference between simply feeling good and losing their sense of self.

However, some people take a few hits of pot and then proclaim the birth of a master of the temple. This is not differentiation - it is illusionary confusion.

 

Ok man I get it thanks.  


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ignant666
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29/03/2020 6:11 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Oh really?  So pre 20th- century man never opened this circuit?  

Mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca and other DMT-bearing plants, and the human nervous system (there is DMT in your spinal fluid) were there before.

As Leary's Harvard pal Art Kleps said in The Boo-Hoo Bible, "Acid is not easier than the traditional methods, it’s just faster, and sneakier."

http://www.okneoac.org/bhb/shit

 


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Shiva
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29/03/2020 8:15 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca and other DMT-bearing plants, and the human nervous system (there is DMT in your spinal fluid) were there before.

I like the description of the little mushrooms or fungi that are found in The Holy Land. They have received very little attention, but have been cited as possible explanations for many biblical scenese. Saint John, of the Rev, might have gotten some of this stuff in his soup.


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frater-r
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30/03/2020 12:10 am  

@ignant

5-Meo-Dmt does more reliably occasion full blown mystical experiences(than  nn-Dmt, or just about anything) imo. The first time that I ever opened circuit 8 it was with 5-Meo-Dmt. It was a totally mind blowing experience.. I smoked .10 and the onset of the effect of the drug began. It became more and more intense. At this time(more than 20 years ago) I had experiemented with plenty of psychedelic drugs and other drugs, but as the trip became more and more intense, I began to feel like I was 'losing my mind' or 'dying'. At some point, I faced these fears, accepted my 'death' and the experience reached a crescendo and entered another plane. At this point all dualities were annihilated - space / time, subject / object, etc. In retrospect, I realize that during the earlier part of the trip(fear of death: nun, fear that I was losing my mind: ayin, I suspect that the pathway of samekh is being opened as balance between ida and pingala, left and right hemispheres of the brain are taking place) a nearly simultaneous initiation of the portal pathways was taking place - ayin, nun and samekh(or the arcanum of 'SON'). After those gates were unlocked, consciousness was immediately elevated straight up the middle pillar of the tree of life to non-duality(circuit 8).

It's interesting to note that nearly all of the qualitative reports from _TIKAL_(tryptamines I have known and loved, by Sasha Shulgin) describe full blown mystical experiences, that were preceded by overwhelming fear, anxiety, etc.(basically what I experienced). I think that if Rick Strassman MD had focused his controlled study on 5-Meo-Dmt instead of the nn analog, he would have found something much closer to the 'spirit molecule that he was looking for.

 


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ignant666
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30/03/2020 12:32 am  

The first time i smoked the 5-MeO-DMT was in the offices of the courier service after work.

I took one hit, nothing, another, nothing. As i exhaled the third hit, i was peak tripping, like 1000 mikes of acid tripping, but faster.

Huge rushing archetypal images, giant primitive stone gods and colors and things that words cannot describe, or thoughts encompass. "I" was gone almost immediately. What was left fastened onto the chainring of a bike hanging on the wall as a mandala. The archetypal imagery organized itself as a tunnel flowing out of the mandala, or i (?) was rushing into it.

The experience lasted years. Five minutes later, i got up, and began walking in circles around the huge table that filled most of the room, going "Holy shit! Holy shit!" over and over. Then i went up to the dispatcher widow at the front of the office, and told the three old biker/hippie dudes there "You gotta try this shit! It's like body-surfing in the backwash of a jet! In church!"

Incidentally, i met Anna and Sasha Shulgin once, and spent a very enjoyable afternoon sitting a couch discussing drugs.


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frater-r
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30/03/2020 12:41 am  

@shiva

When Rick Strassman MD did a controlled study on Dmt back in the early 90's his hypothesis was that Dmt is the 'spirit molecule' that modulates superconscious perception in human beings. His findings were met with scorn by much of the medical community, because although Dmt precurrsors such as 5-HTP were found in the pineal gland, no one had proven that Dmt is produced by the gland. In 2013 the Cottonwood Research Foundation found Dmt in the pineal glands of live rodents. Moreover, recent controlled studies have also detected elevated levels of DMT in the urine of subjects that are committed to spiritual discipline - like meditating monks(John Horgan, "Rational Mysticism").Interestingly, DMT is also produced in high concentration in the human lungs; this discovery begins to create a bridge between pranayama and the release of endogenous DMT. Here's what Dr. Steven Barker - the lead MD in the study that detected DMT in the pineal gland of rats said about this possibility, "However, I think DMT may primarily be synthesized in the lung during specific physiological states; controlled breathing, such as occurs in many meditative practices, extreme physical exertion, hyperventilation, near-death changes in respiration rates, hypoxia, etc. DMT synthesized in the lung would go directly to the brain, by-passing the metabolic destruction that would occur from liver metabolism."

It seems that the sort of scientific inquiry that Crowley euphemistically referred to as 'Scientific Illuminism' is taking place now. " “If only I could reduce the necessary period to a few hours! (** here Crowley is talking about the difficulty of meditating in Britains cold and damp climate**) Moreover, I could persuade other people that mysticism was not folly without insisting on their devoting a lifetime to studying under me; and if only I could convince a few competent observers - in such a matter I could not even trust myself - science would be bound to follow and to investigate, clear up the matter once and for all, and, as I believed and still believe, arm itself with a new weapon ten thousand times more potent than the balance and microscope” - Equinox Volume 1, Number 2


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frater-r
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30/03/2020 1:49 am  

@ignant666

 

Thanks for paging thearthuremerson for the chat about philosophy!

 

p.s. Cool story about Sasha and Ann! 


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frater-r
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30/03/2020 2:03 am  

@thearthuremerson

Thanks for providing philosophical commentary(it has been many years since I've studied it). I have a couple of friends that are into Thelema and have also done graduate work in Philosophy. I have been looking for ways to try to articulate ideas related to the phenomenology of trance states within the framework of academic philosophy(the joy of trying to describe circuit 8 with circuit 3!).


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frater-r
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30/03/2020 2:07 am  

@shiva

I realize that you are ,perhaps, aware of most of the science related to entheogens that I mentioned in my last reply, but I have been following it closely for the last few years so I tried to summarize some of the important findings of neuro-scientists.


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Shiva
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30/03/2020 3:18 am  
Posted by: @frater-r

It was a totally mind blowing experience.

So we can put you on the roster of those who know wtf I'm talking about when I assume my voice of authority and say, "Nobody is going to figure out the meaning of life or the nature of the so-called higher self with his or her mind." Yes, that is what I say, over and over, using many different words.

Posted by: @frater-r

At some point, I faced these fears, accepted my 'death' and the experience reached a crescendo and entered another plane.

Exactly.

Posted by: @frater-r

full blown mystical experiences, that were preceded by overwhelming fear, anxiety, etc.

I can, and will, report the same description for Sandoz LSD-25, the original legal medicine from which all others are duplicates, or more likely "attempted| duplicates, or "consciously and poorly-mixed analogs - possibly cut with some amphetamine.

When comparing Sandoz Acid (and it gets no better than that standard) with psilocybin, from mushrooms, which is a DMT analogue, I have found the psil to have a more natural feeling. This is probably due to the fact that, as Ig pointed out, DMT is already a guest in our large hotel complex.

I have found that, once one is a seasoned psychonaut, it no longer matters which substance is used, and the dose merely has to be enough to trip the circuit breaker to the "on" position in a previously-activated but normally dormant higher circuit.

Posted by: @ignant666

Huge rushing archetypal images, giant primitive stone gods and colors and things that words cannot describe, or thoughts encompass.

Yeah, that's the Spirit. A quick tour through the Hall of Hallucinations and even the Akashic Records.

Posted by: @frater-r

Dmt is the 'spirit molecule' that modulates superconscious perception in human beings.

I dunno nothin about no Doctor's study. From your description, he might have been on to something. What I do know is that I sought out DMT starting in 1966, but never came across it, ever.

My wife, when she went to the Amazon, took the Ayahuasca brew. It's a "bre" because it's a cooked, herbal formula. Let's get the chemistry right:

The DMT is in the bush ingredient (Psychotria viridis), but the body cannot assimilate it.

The Ayahuasca vine, which is a piece of wood, is the catalyst that allows the DMT to be assimilated. It has no psychic effect by itself. (see Wikipedia for details).

So my wife said she drank this potion, then sat in meditation. She said it was not like other medicines that come on slowly. One minute she was normail and waiting. Then she "got hit by a freight train."

Then there is the concept I am fond of promoting, wherein a person who is foolish enough to take this sort of thing internally should consider tapering down, over a long period of time, so that these states or circuits can be activated or entered without medicinal assistance.

Posted by: @frater-r

a new weapon ten thousand times more potent than the balance and microscope” - Equinox Volume 1, Number

Oh, goodness, and the 33 fairies. This mistakenly overrated statement is about to be eclipsed bt The Horus Toy (TM)(R)(C)(x-rated), in only a couple days ... or so ... if the internet doesn't crash and the cornhole virus doesn't slow down the march of time.

 

 


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mal
 mal
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30/03/2020 4:18 am  

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 5:49 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @frater-r

It was a totally mind blowing experience.

So we can put you on the roster of those who know wtf I'm talking about when I assume my voice of authority and say, "Nobody is going to figure out the meaning of life or the nature of the so-called higher self with his or her mind." Yes, that is what I say, over and over, using many different words.

Posted by: @frater-r

At some point, I faced these fears, accepted my 'death' and the experience reached a crescendo and entered another plane.

Exactly.

Posted by: @frater-r

full blown mystical experiences, that were preceded by overwhelming fear, anxiety, etc.

I can, and will, report the same description for Sandoz LSD-25, the original legal medicine from which all others are duplicates, or more likely "attempted| duplicates, or "consciously and poorly-mixed analogs - possibly cut with some amphetamine.

When comparing Sandoz Acid (and it gets no better than that standard) with psilocybin, from mushrooms, which is a DMT analogue, I have found the psil to have a more natural feeling. This is probably due to the fact that, as Ig pointed out, DMT is already a guest in our large hotel complex.

I have found that, once one is a seasoned psychonaut, it no longer matters which substance is used, and the dose merely has to be enough to trip the circuit breaker to the "on" position in a previously-activated but normally dormant higher circuit.

Posted by: @ignant666

Huge rushing archetypal images, giant primitive stone gods and colors and things that words cannot describe, or thoughts encompass.

Yeah, that's the Spirit. A quick tour through the Hall of Hallucinations and even the Akashic Records.

Posted by: @frater-r

Dmt is the 'spirit molecule' that modulates superconscious perception in human beings.

I dunno nothin about no Doctor's study. From your description, he might have been on to something. What I do know is that I sought out DMT starting in 1966, but never came across it, ever.

My wife, when she went to the Amazon, took the Ayahuasca brew. It's a "bre" because it's a cooked, herbal formula. Let's get the chemistry right:

The DMT is in the bush ingredient (Psychotria viridis), but the body cannot assimilate it.

The Ayahuasca vine, which is a piece of wood, is the catalyst that allows the DMT to be assimilated. It has no psychic effect by itself. (see Wikipedia for details).

So my wife said she drank this potion, then sat in meditation. She said it was not like other medicines that come on slowly. One minute she was normail and waiting. Then she "got hit by a freight train."

Then there is the concept I am fond of promoting, wherein a person who is foolish enough to take this sort of thing internally should consider tapering down, over a long period of time, so that these states or circuits can be activated or entered without medicinal assistance.

Posted by: @frater-r

a new weapon ten thousand times more potent than the balance and microscope” - Equinox Volume 1, Number

Oh, goodness, and the 33 fairies. This mistakenly overrated statement is about to be eclipsed bt The Horus Toy (TM)(R)(C)(x-rated), in only a couple days ... or so ... if the internet doesn't crash and the cornhole virus doesn't slow down the march of time.

 

 

 


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 5:50 am  
Posted by: @frater-r
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @frater-r

It was a totally mind blowing experience.

So we can put you on the roster of those who know wtf I'm talking about when I assume my voice of authority and say, "Nobody is going to figure out the meaning of life or the nature of the so-called higher self with his or her mind." Yes, that is what I say, over and over, using many different words.

Posted by: @frater-r

At some point, I faced these fears, accepted my 'death' and the experience reached a crescendo and entered another plane.

Exactly.

Posted by: @frater-r

full blown mystical experiences, that were preceded by overwhelming fear, anxiety, etc.

I can, and will, report the same description for Sandoz LSD-25, the original legal medicine from which all others are duplicates, or more likely "attempted| duplicates, or "consciously and poorly-mixed analogs - possibly cut with some amphetamine.

When comparing Sandoz Acid (and it gets no better than that standard) with psilocybin, from mushrooms, which is a DMT analogue, I have found the psil to have a more natural feeling. This is probably due to the fact that, as Ig pointed out, DMT is already a guest in our large hotel complex.

I have found that, once one is a seasoned psychonaut, it no longer matters which substance is used, and the dose merely has to be enough to trip the circuit breaker to the "on" position in a previously-activated but normally dormant higher circuit.

Posted by: @ignant666

Huge rushing archetypal images, giant primitive stone gods and colors and things that words cannot describe, or thoughts encompass.

Yeah, that's the Spirit. A quick tour through the Hall of Hallucinations and even the Akashic Records.

Posted by: @frater-r

Dmt is the 'spirit molecule' that modulates superconscious perception in human beings.

I dunno nothin about no Doctor's study. From your description, he might have been on to something. What I do know is that I sought out DMT starting in 1966, but never came across it, ever.

My wife, when she went to the Amazon, took the Ayahuasca brew. It's a "bre" because it's a cooked, herbal formula. Let's get the chemistry right:

The DMT is in the bush ingredient (Psychotria viridis), but the body cannot assimilate it.

The Ayahuasca vine, which is a piece of wood, is the catalyst that allows the DMT to be assimilated. It has no psychic effect by itself. (see Wikipedia for details).

So my wife said she drank this potion, then sat in meditation. She said it was not like other medicines that come on slowly. One minute she was normail and waiting. Then she "got hit by a freight train."

Then there is the concept I am fond of promoting, wherein a person who is foolish enough to take this sort of thing internally should consider tapering down, over a long period of time, so that these states or circuits can be activated or entered without medicinal assistance.

Posted by: @frater-r

a new weapon ten thousand times more potent than the balance and microscope” - Equinox Volume 1, Number

Oh, goodness, and the 33 fairies. This mistakenly overrated statement is about to be eclipsed bt The Horus Toy (TM)(R)(C)(x-rated), in only a couple days ... or so ... if the internet doesn't crash and the cornhole virus doesn't slow down the march of time.

 

 

 

 


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 5:51 am  
Posted by: @frater-r
Posted by: @frater-r
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @frater-r

It was a totally mind blowing experience.

So we can put you on the roster of those who know wtf I'm talking about when I assume my voice of authority and say, "Nobody is going to figure out the meaning of life or the nature of the so-called higher self with his or her mind." Yes, that is what I say, over and over, using many different words.

Posted by: @frater-r

At some point, I faced these fears, accepted my 'death' and the experience reached a crescendo and entered another plane.

Exactly.

Posted by: @frater-r

full blown mystical experiences, that were preceded by overwhelming fear, anxiety, etc.

I can, and will, report the same description for Sandoz LSD-25, the original legal medicine from which all others are duplicates, or more likely "attempted| duplicates, or "consciously and poorly-mixed analogs - possibly cut with some amphetamine.

When comparing Sandoz Acid (and it gets no better than that standard) with psilocybin, from mushrooms, which is a DMT analogue, I have found the psil to have a more natural feeling. This is probably due to the fact that, as Ig pointed out, DMT is already a guest in our large hotel complex.

I have found that, once one is a seasoned psychonaut, it no longer matters which substance is used, and the dose merely has to be enough to trip the circuit breaker to the "on" position in a previously-activated but normally dormant higher circuit.

Posted by: @ignant666

Huge rushing archetypal images, giant primitive stone gods and colors and things that words cannot describe, or thoughts encompass.

Yeah, that's the Spirit. A quick tour through the Hall of Hallucinations and even the Akashic Records.

Posted by: @frater-r

Dmt is the 'spirit molecule' that modulates superconscious perception in human beings.

I dunno nothin about no Doctor's study. From your description, he might have been on to something. What I do know is that I sought out DMT starting in 1966, but never came across it, ever.

My wife, when she went to the Amazon, took the Ayahuasca brew. It's a "bre" because it's a cooked, herbal formula. Let's get the chemistry right:

The DMT is in the bush ingredient (Psychotria viridis), but the body cannot assimilate it.

The Ayahuasca vine, which is a piece of wood, is the catalyst that allows the DMT to be assimilated. It has no psychic effect by itself. (see Wikipedia for details).

So my wife said she drank this potion, then sat in meditation. She said it was not like other medicines that come on slowly. One minute she was normail and waiting. Then she "got hit by a freight train."

Then there is the concept I am fond of promoting, wherein a person who is foolish enough to take this sort of thing internally should consider tapering down, over a long period of time, so that these states or circuits can be activated or entered without medicinal assistance.

Posted by: @frater-r

a new weapon ten thousand times more potent than the balance and microscope” - Equinox Volume 1, Number

Oh, goodness, and the 33 fairies. This mistakenly overrated statement is about to be eclipsed bt The Horus Toy (TM)(R)(C)(x-rated), in only a couple days ... or so ... if the internet doesn't crash and the cornhole virus doesn't slow down the march of time.

 

 

 

 

 


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 5:53 am  
Posted by: @shiva

When comparing Sandoz Acid (and it gets no better than that standard)

Agreed.


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 6:05 am  

@shiva

Where do you think that entheogenic experiences, including profound ones(chemical samadhi), fit in to the three levels of initiation that you described in "The short path"? 


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Shiva
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31/03/2020 7:59 am  
Posted by: @frater-r

Where do you think that entheogenic experiences, including profound ones(chemical samadhi), fit in to the three levels of initiation

From the beginning to the end, all three levels are perceived by a human mind. The first two levels are perceived by the "I Am Me' of the individual. The third level is termed the Universal Mind. We can pretend it's "out there," but it's just another circuit in the mind, one that overrides the I Am Me perception. Yes, the third level, known as the quantum circuit, doe indeed "blow away" the dross of perception, but guess what? The ego-mind is involved to a certain degree in those quantum perceptions. Otherwise how could anyone speak or write of their experience after I Am Me has dissolved.

Well, at first it's a flash-bang blow away. After enough of those, one learns how to navigate the transition a bit more smoothly. A Master is said to "lean back" into samadhi. No flash-bang.

Now if a person were to take a legal libation, and they were to go bananas, I'd have to say "no grade, see a doctor."

If they saw the lights, the light show, the kaleidoscopes, the cartoons, the lurking shapes, they'd be roaming the Hall of Hallucinations. I would recommend banishing and Raja Yoga. They should be recognized as having earned at least the first step or degree.

If the Hallucinations should happen to center, should a mandala appear - of its own accord, and especially if that centered mandala splits down the middle and draws off the both sides, like a veil opening, and then one or more archetypal figures or symbols appears, steady, self-illuminated, then we must grudgingly offer a second step or grade as a diagnosis.

When that person has a conscious perception of themselves dissolving into a vision or into their environment, they are entering the third step or grade.

All of this can be accomplished with Raja Yoga, or Bhakti Yoga, or Jnana Yoga, if one has a couple decades, or more,  to devote. Any and all of the states of the Yogas can be activated with the stronger psychedelic medicines. Not everyone goes the same distance.

Any states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence must be deemed as previews of coming attractions, and they represent the grade level potential of any person, but not the grade itself, for those are only earned in daily life.

I guess that's about it. Did I miss anything?

 


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 8:45 am  

@shiva

In my experience, various trance states initiate new ways of thinking / perceiving, but ,often, that modality isn't stablized right away. For instance, the initiate may experience temporary non-duality with entheogens, but he/she probably isn't a Master Of The Temple. I think that anyone that has experienced non-duality via entheogens is forever changed, but 'alien orbs' (faulty programs and metaprograms or samskaras) will continue to hijack the operating system to some degree until more progress is made with meditation and magick. This is basically what Crowley said, "Unless your universe is perfect - and perfection includes the idea of balance - how can you come even to Atmadarshana? Hindus may maintain that Atmadarshana ,or at any rate Shivadarshana, is the equivalent of crossing the abyss. Beware of any such conclusions! The trances are simply isolated experiences, sharply cut off from the normal thought life. To cross the abyss is a permanent and fundamental revolution in the whole of one's being" - _Magick Without Tears_ . So ,imo, most entheogenic trance states(depsite the fact that some are incredibly profound) map to the Vision Of The HGA. 


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frater-r
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31/03/2020 5:21 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

any states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence must be deemed as previews of coming attractions, and they represent the grade level potential of any person, but not the grade itself, for those are only earned in daily life.

To restate my question, what is the relationhip between the the preview of the coming attractions and the grade itself?


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Shiva
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31/03/2020 7:19 pm  
Posted by: @frater-r

the initiate may experience temporary non-duality with entheogens, but he/she probably isn't a Master Of The Temple.

My point is, and always has been, that if anyone can reach any state, stage, or step with pharmaceutical assistance, then such perception indicates that they have the potential for "attaining" that state. In fact, in your example, the individual is a Master of the Temple for the duration of being in that state. The magical pills or potions then wear off. The individual returns to normal consciousness. What does he/she do?

There are two choices:
1) Claim the Grade (see numerous, recent, historical examples).
2) Realize that one now has been introduced to the higher state as a preview, then get back to the practices in order to make it a reality in daily life ... but no grade claiming ... yet.

Posted by: @frater-r

Atmadarshana ,or at any rate Shivadarshana, is the equivalent of crossing the abyss.

Well, it is. In the moment and for the duration of how long the substance is in one's system, PLUS how long one can maintain that state once the stuff is gone. Most standard libations, like most Rx drugs, lasts about 4 hours. The effects may hang on for many hours, even days after that, but as you say, the previous programs hijack the operating system. Then it's back to asana, pranayama, etc.

Posted by: @frater-r

To restate my question, what is the relationhip between the the preview of the coming attractions and the grade itself?

The relationship is that any vision or state induced by drugs is a drug-induction that allows a preview, a glimpse, an introduction to the states and the nature of higher "grade" levels. It's like being Queen for a Day, but one doesn't get to keep on being the Queen after the Day elapses.

I thought I outlined in detail the nature of opening up the three steps: (1) Hallucinations. (2) Archetypal visions. (3) Non-dual.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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01/04/2020 1:21 am  
Posted by: @shiva

Any states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence must be deemed as previews of coming attractions, and they represent the grade level potential of any person, but not the grade itself, for those are only earned in daily life.

I guess that's about it. Did I miss anything?

But wouldn't these "states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence" also occur [with]in [the context of] daily life?

N Joy


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frater-r
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01/04/2020 2:30 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

But wouldn't these "states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence" also occur [with]in [the context of] daily life?

I had tripped on LSD-25 more than 100 times before having an LSD trip break through to non-duality(and that at the end of my Abramelin Operation). That experience came as quite a shock. I was overwhelemed by the impact of that trip for days, but eventually 'normal' psychological functioning  returned(psychological functioning that is modulated by previous imprints and complexes). It was quite some time before I experienced samadhi again. As Shiva noted up-thread, it becomes much easier with time, eventually becoming relatively easy to affect a perceptual shift toward samadhi.


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Shiva
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01/04/2020 2:52 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

But wouldn't these "states perceived under medicinal catalyst influence" also occur [with]in [the context of] daily life?

"Could not" (your term): Yes, with regular practice or the occasional spontaneous combustion.

"Would not" (speculative term): No, drug-induced states do not necessarily then automatically occur in daily life, except for flashbacks.

 


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