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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

in this case, the visions and experiences present their own "clear" reality - which is not the usual astral stuff

It is my observation that the "circumventing" of the Astral Filter is what may render such experiences, higher/inner plane though they be, as traumatic, for some. If we couldn't get prepared for the intrusion (or "invasion"), we are then tasked or challenged with assimilating what our consciousness has been bombarded with. This is something of a post-contact Initiation. Lots of stuff can go wrong at every stage of the way here. But there is also potential for knowing-and thereby becoming-more at each step, also. 


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Pertinax
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@shiva 

I would say that the same is true of supernatural encounters, of which I've had a few, although not recently. They are definitely 'real', as in they occur in 4D, as external, and at least twice in my life, subject to a second opinion, unlike definitely purely astral phenomena such as those we work with in pathworking or encounter in dreams. 

Posted by: @shiva

Right. I see ships but not little or big men of any colour.

Precisely.

My point is, that all phenomena are filtered through the astral, but some phenomena have their origins in the astral and therefore appear unreal, dreamlike, transient, while others seem to be from a level beyond that and appear more real (because they have an existence external to our lower vehicle), simply clothing themselves in form according to the contents of the mind (although both classes do this to some extent). This is a bit like a robber who breaks into a persons house and dresses themselves in whatever's available, perhaps your wife's clothes for example, and to the unsuspecting might pass for one's wife unless you are paying attention.

Posted by: @shiva

I'm not presenting a hypothesis or proclaiming a fact. I am basing my question on my own experiences with astral projection and ship-work being of a different quality.

Of course, we are just using a model to describe what we perceive, rather than attaching importance to the model itself. As long as we don't get hung up on terminology all's good.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @pertinax

all phenomena are filtered through the astral, but some phenomena have their origins in the astral and therefore appear unreal, dreamlike, transient, while others seem to be from a level beyond that and appear more real (because they have an existence external to our lower vehicle)

Okay, I'll buy two of those. The key words here are "they have an existence external to our lower vehicle." This seems correct. It also brings up other questions ...

1. Are they archetypes? If so, the arches have the ability to appear to be independent beings, but we all carry them around, so they're universal, and part of our being, but at a very high level.

2. Are they really independent? You know, salvation lies in assuming responsibility for whatever we perceive.

3. Setting aside the lower vehicle, we have the inner vehicle (the so-called soul or causal body. Are we still separate from them (the phenomena)?

4. Was Crowley right when he said there were praeterhuman beings (gods), and our only hope for survival is to contact them?

I agree with your conclusion and the questions are not necessarily for you, or for anyone in particular. They are merely spin-off questions that deal with internal/external considerations.

 


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grouchotrout
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I guess I probably shouldn't be that surprised that there's more cogent & insightful discussion on this topic here, than on more conspiracy/UFO oriented sites. Good stuff!

I don't think there's one "solution" to the phenom. At times it seems as if They are fully incarnated in 3D. Sometimes it seems as if they may be incarnated elsewhere/when & may be astral projecting or going out of body themselves. Yet other times it seems it's purely astral/psychic. 

I also get the impression that some of them have the very specific job of initiating. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the basics of shamanic initiation. Many trads describe very similar experiences: taken away to a domed cave while in a trance by small non humans who replace various organs with stones of power.

The problem here seems to be a shortage of shamans/initiated people who can recognize & guide people through the experience, for max benefit. I get the impression that the initiating spirits (ETs) are obliged to do their job to the best of their abilities, with or without a shaman or initiate in the vacinity.


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Sanguine Chuck
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When I was in my 20's, I had the opportunity to hang out for a bit and smoke a joint with Jack Herer of "Hemp" fame and his good buddy, always by his side, George Clayton Johnson, science fiction writer (Star Trek fame) who was very very old and looked like the classic Gandalf wizard.

George never had a "small talk" convo, it was always immediately higher than high level. And out of nowhere he said "Terence Mckenna is the only one I know who has the closest idea to what UFO's are."

At the time, I don't know what freaked me out more about the conversation, was it the unusually high grade marijuana that Jack supplied ("my own personal supply!" he said), or the hours long conversation with George, whom I could barely follow.

Or was it the nagging question, how did George know that Terence Mckenna was the closest?

Anyway, Mckenna and UFOs. I loved Mckenna's view that the UFO was a symbol from our "overmind" and it took whatever form it needed to to communicate something transcendent to the whole species, some sort of "whole species" language type interpretation, pretty far out.

To McKenna, the UFO experience he had took the form of a "cheesy" UFO shape, something from the 1950's films. Mckenna said that the experience was that of the trickster to him, the UFO as saucer overmind at the end of history, guiding us to the pivotal point.

From another viewpoint, even if Mckenna and George were simply just high all the time on the good stuff, I suppose that the big picture language that is being communicated is that there is this "mystery", and can we all rise to the challenge, collectively and globally, to come to an agreement that we simply do not know what this mystery is?

UFO's are mysterious objects that we all can agree are mystery.

Thanks George and Terence!

May you rest your case in peace!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @grouchotrout

I guess I probably shouldn't be that surprised that there's more cogent & insightful discussion on this topic here, than on more conspiracy/UFO oriented sites. Good stuff!

At least many (most?) folks here do the work, in one form or another, so we might have a much better set of tools to probe this paradigm. Most of the UFO sites and books feature experiences that happen to people who have not done any work - thus they report incidents similar to a person who has had some acid slipped into the coffee cup.

It is almost mandatory, although I will not mandate it, that anyone delving into the Alien/UFO paradigm should be familiar with Flying Saucers by Carl Jung. He gives us the picture that the saucers and the contacts are the new archetypal symbols (replacing chariots and angels). He treats the whole affair as a psychological case study. Then he cites some contactees who suddenly became miraculous healers (Note: the 8th circuit again).

Posted by: @grouchotrout

... it seems as if they may be incarnated elsewhere/when & may be astral projecting or going out of body themselves.

One version of the paradigm specifically states that they have a "base," a point of contact, on the lower astral plane. They are said to not originate there, but that they come from "other dimensions." It would be nice to know if these other dimension can be identified with our map of the Sephiroth, the Seven Planes, the 30 Aethyrs, the Zodiac (realm of the fixed stars) ... or are these really some way-out other dimensions in which our mind-patterns don't even begin to fit?

Posted by: @grouchotrout

The problem here seems to be a shortage of shamans/initiated people

This woe may be applied to politics, religions, medicine, science, etc.  The vast majority of people on this planet are esoterically known as "average humanity," who have no interest in anything higher than Netzach, although they may join churches or mosques because it's dictated by their Netzachian culture.

"Let my servants be few and secret" seems to be, and always has been, the rule.

 


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grouchotrout
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@shiva 

"Few and secret" definitely seems to be the rule, at this point in space/time anyways.

I'm not 100% sure about my experiences with "ETs" & any maps or models I'm familiar with. I suppose the wobbly armed, plastic looking "greys" have a very Yesodic feel to them. I suspect the relative vicinity to Malkuth makes 3D interaction somewhat easier, perhaps. If I recall correctly, Jacques Vallee crunched some numbers & found that Wednesdays have the highest number of sightings & encounters. It makes sense considering its association with messenger/initiator/sky deities, like Mercury, Hermes, Wotan/Odin, etc.

Another contact of mine seems to have some kind of association with one of the moons of Saturn. The best I can do with this is somewhere near the outer edge of the Abyss, maybe. I don't know of anything that corresponds directly. I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that this is not his original point of origin, but something like a way station or beacon or something along those lines. 

There's another guy, but I've only ever met him in 4D. I've never seen him near a UFO or anything like it, though he does give off very strong ultra-terrestrial vibes...

The guise in the red sphere, I'm not so sure about. Even though my mother was there with me, much of it still seems un-real in some way, like an inverted funhouse mirror of a lucid dream. As I believe I related elsewhere, my memory of this encounter for many years was that Saturn had somehow come dramatically close to Earth, on account of the glowing red object hovering in the sky with a black ring around its middle. I get generally "good" vibes from them, but they are currently officially filed under "unknown." 

In general, however, looking at the entirety of my experiences & where they've lead me, I can say that there seems to be a direct correlation with every tradition that addresses some sort of "upward" ascension, especially the night sky. In my case, a major key seems to be exchanging Malkuth for the higher spheres as the primary base of operations, if we're continuing with that map. Breaking through the dome of the skull & through the clouds into space, everything is all-ways "night time." All of this also segues quite nicely with my Taoist practices as well. Star-stepping. Yes, having some sort of workable context for the experience most definitely seems to facilitate maximizing potential benefits.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @grouchotrout

I'm not 100% sure about my experiences with "ETs" & any maps or models I'm familiar with.

This is to be expected if the 8th circuit is involved. The Quantum circuit, Quantum physics, and Quantum "mechanics" all live in a "box" in some column within some version of The Tables of Correspondences that reads "undefinable."

In Quantum-land, particles and vectors cannot be specifically defined. Results are based on probability (not on hard data resulting in "facts"). Where does that leave us when we attempt to figure out what's going on and where it comes from? Answer: Up the creek, with only primers and texts on Quantum stuff that cannot be grasped by the linear mind.

Posted by: @grouchotrout

I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that this is not his original point of origin, but something like a way station or beacon or something along those lines. 

Aha!    This indicates either: (A) You are using intuition/understanding ... or (B) See a doctor. Since you are coherent and not-raving, let's go with (A) for now.

Posted by: @grouchotrout

... red sphere ... much of it still seems un-real in some way, like an inverted funhouse mirror of a lucid dream.

This is exactly one of the points that I am looking at ... many people who report incidents seem to include a qualification that implies a different dimension (either "transported/abducted to or superimposed on 3D reality). Fuzziness, paralysis, levitation, a dreamlike presentation, are usually mentioned as part of the experience.

Posted by: @grouchotrout

having some sort of workable context for the experience most definitely seems to facilitate maximizing potential benefits.

That's sort of what we're looking for here. Most folks who experience encounters do not have a metaphysical database, a history of raja yoga or some similar self-mind-control discipline, and their reports appear to be "disturbed." They also appear to be "victims," which of course is not part of the Thelemic approach.

 


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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@shiva 

For the record when I had my most vivid experience in full waking consciousness something felt 'odd'

 

I felt like time stopped or I was not really myself or not really here.

Its really hard to explain.

 

If I was me being me in the me time I would have been terrified.  But when I saw the being in my hallway my body didn't care.  I was just totally numb and just taking in the data from my eyes. 

 

Very strange.  

I doubt it will ever happen again. 

 

Perhaps these 'things' emit calmers.   . . . 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

For the record when I had my most vivid experience in full waking consciousness something felt 'odd'

Yeah, yeah. That's what they all say, probably using different terms that all mean "weird." There is always a description of something "paranormal." ("Para" means "next to"). And, as you descrived it, you yourself were "paranormal." These assorted descriptions, including yours, do not seem to appear to be what we commonly know as astral projection, phenomena, or visions ... because one is oneself in the 3D world, but the experience is 4D (paranormal), and the person always reports something odd. Welcome to the 8th circuit, which is NOT/NEVER "normal."

Posted by: @christibrany

Its really hard to explain.

Yes, but you have said enough to convict yourself convince me (at least) that you are more sensitive to this stuff than I am. I suspect we (the posters here) will not come to a conclusion or an explanation anytime soon. After all ...

"The US government has said it has no explanation for dozens
of unidentified flying objects seen by military pilots.
"
- Yesterday  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57619755

Here is a tentative list of the subjects we probably need to be familiar with ...

1. Quantum physics/mechanics

2. Radionics

3. The 8th circuit

4. The Book of Lies (for moral support)

It helps to have had an "experience." Without first-hand experience, one can be a researcher or a skeptic, but nobody gets to play The Game without at least one shake-up encounter.

"The Game" is a term used to describe interfacing with this 3D/4D phenomena. Mr White introduced me to The Game, which is exactly what he called it (in 1984). He also gave simple instruction for how to avoid insanity.

There are no Libers, or even Letters, wherein AC gets into items 1-3 on the list above ... but he certainly opens a door with a pic of Lam. Most (all?) of the "authors" who are explaining this stuff to us in books or on YourTub seem to include Crowley in their stories. Maybe I'll collect a bunch of shjort fair use quotes where he gets cited.

image

 

image

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