("All these [gods] were men. Their deification[?] is the result of Mythopoeia [sic?]["myth-making]." - AC
Euhemerism applied to pantheons.
I was thinking along those lines (symbolically) of "true" gods and "false" gods, and such formulas of the former being distortions to meet the demands of the Laws of Men.
Traditional mythological gods tend to be almost suspiciously anthropomorphic. 😉
But that could be just our way of interpreting the ineffable, therefore indeed in a way elements tossed in by Choronzon, but this doesn't preclude the existence of an actual divine force. Whether said divine force is within, without, or even panentheistic is likely a purely academic question.
i have much respect for the Typhonian tradition !
i did not take your response as crabby.
i was just creating a storm in order to get something moving.
You know like Oya lifted by Ayao,
through the power of the trees that fed the air and the
vaporescence of the ocean that formed the clouds
and the magic of the winds to act.
Question (anyone) who are these Old Ones in which we speak?
Part of the fictional pantheon of H.P. Lovecraft.
Part of the fictional pantheon of H.P. Lovecraft
Yes, that sort of bumps my noggin to (sort of) remember that connection. Since I have never read any Love-craft, it's no wonder I'm in a dim wit place.
I do find it interesting that the same theme (an Old gods Resurgence) pops up in some back rooms of the new-age pantheon. And that quote I excerpted and posted above - it referred to Voodoo (where they speak of "old gods"). The same text revealed that the source phrase of Voodoo was/is Vous Deax, which means "You Two," and sounds (looks) like French, which is below my pay grade (as are most other ferenghi lingos), even though I have a good portion of French DNA in my cells.
Part of the fictional pantheon of H.P. Lovecraft
Yes, that sort of bumps my noggin to (sort of) remember that connection. Since I have never read any Love-craft, it's no wonder I'm in a dim
witplace.I do find it interesting that the same theme (an Old gods Resurgence) pops up in some back rooms of the new-age pantheon. And that quote I excerpted and posted above - it referred to Voodoo (where they speak of "old gods"). The same text revealed that the source phrase of Voodoo was/is Vous Deax, which means "You Two," and sounds (looks) like French, which is below my pay grade (as are most other ferenghi lingos), even though I have a good portion of French DNA in my cells.
Would not put too much reliance on that text on Voodoo, Shiva. To be lazy, I will cite Wikipedia on West African Vodun:
Vodun (meaning spirit in the Fon, Gun and Ewe languages, pronounced [vodṹ] with a nasal high-tone u; also spelled Vodon, Vodoun, Vodou, Vudu, Voudou, Voodoo, etc.) is a religion practiced by the Aja, Ewe, and Fon peoples of Benin, Togo, Ghana, and Nigeria.
It is distinct from the various traditional African religions in the interiors of these countries and is the main source of religions with similar names found among the African diaspora in the Americas, such as Haitian Vodou; Louisiana Voodoo; Cuban Vodú; Dominican Vudú, and Brazilian Vodum (Candomblé Jejé and Tambor de Mina).
No disparagement of your French DNA intended.
Now back to the Great Old Ones - the fictional pantheon of H.P. Lovecraft - well let's get HPL right, there never was anything human about them. No ancestor spirits here, but alien cosmic entities that possessed the earth aeons ago and have a yearning to do so again. But sensitive, imaginative, adventurous, deranged, possibly misguided individuals, i.e occultists, can establish rapport with them.
Hence, the Typhonian objective of establishing communication with extraterrestrial or preternatural forms of consciousness along the lines of the K'rla Cell Workings.
They might be likened to the primordial, or chaotic forces of various pantheons, such as the Babylonian descriptions of Tiamat and her fearsome brood in the Creation Epic. Personally, I am inclining to the notion of equating them with the primordial Kings of Edom of Qabbalistic significance, who reigned in former times then perished, but which are still very active forces on Qlippothic levels.
I appreciate increasingly the ironies of individual preferences: many who are dismissive of HPL's fictional entities happily embrace the Authenticity/reality/call it what you will of Atlantis and its culture, part of a literary creation by Plato with no other basis of existence in ancient texts.
I started out late with H.P. Lovecraft (although I do remember watching an old movie "Dagon" when I was a kid, based on that book) and have read but few of his stories.
Most all of his work is available online, as is a lot of Clark Ashton Smith's.
It is correct to suggest "All these Gods were Men" and the result of myth-making, as is found in every walk of life from pre-historic times to the modern day present, right now, and the "telephone game" is just the way of it and how it works..
Euhemerism may account for some of our mythology, but we also like to put names and faces to things so that we understand them and can at least get the feeling of interacting with them. We have a need to make sense of things.
However, it is my belief: we know not the difference between "alien intelligence" and that of our own intelligence, and interpretations are bound to vary.
Some of the pantheon seem to align more with the prerational. This quote from The Call of Cthulhu, for example:
"free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom"
and deities like the fertility cult based Shub Niggurath, and the "blind idiot" Azathoth.
These represent the primordial forces like the Titans and Giants, beings that more humanistic creator deities overcome in order to impose order on creation.
Others like Yog Sothoth seem more transrational, while Nyarlathotep seems strangely human, or transhuman, almost like a Secret Chief.
But they all deal in aspects outside of standard human consciousness.
Nyarlathotep = Choronzon?
While most writers depict him as entirely malign and working to lead humanity to destroy itself by providing us with dangerous knowledge, and getting some degree of entertainment from doing that, some later writers have depicted him as a force that can lead to transcendence or oblivion, with him not really personally caring which, so it could fit.
The buzzing of insects the croaking of frogs the hissing of creatures, howling demons and shrieking beasts;
beyond the pylons of Daath, past the Gate of the Abyss, beneath the Desert of Set, through caverns lies the Sunken City and the Shrine of Choronzon where the Cold Waste pervades, and from the Tunnels, a subtle stream flows; ahead the reverse image of the White Brightness of Kether, a Shadow and a Space existing off the tree.
Lam Ipsos Lam Ipsos Lam
Balanced as a feather on a razors edge of madness where only a mummy dare tread; walk carefully.
In pre history before the process of human conception and the transliteration of truth into illusion; Forces in various guises gain ingress; some in secret forbidden dimensions.
Communicating through dreams and imagination hidden in works of fiction they abduct and use man.
Executing the transference and possession of the human consciousness outside the known form of existence.
A magical congress with an element of extra-terrestriality.
Vodu = pure light - spirit essence - antecessor
One does not Choose the Loa the Loa choose you.
Separate the poser, and test the spirit; give the Chwal a bottle of Piman or gasoline to drink.
And recall the nephilim.
Would not put too much reliance on that text on Voodoo,
We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon ... The "text" was/is a novel, so I won't be founding a new religion based on the data, at least this week.
alien cosmic entities that possessed the earth aeons ago and have a yearning to do so again.
Yes. These fellows are (theoretically) mentioned in The Alien Space Race hypothetical paradigm, now being popularly presented in certain circles. The possibility is offered of an ancient wave of travelers who passed by (close or far) Earth, releasing AI nanos.
So here we are today, passing through a field of old, hi-tech AI, but the Old Ones who dropped them (the AI) off evolved out of existence aeons ago.
Well, that's the scenario at it's extreme. By merely adding the part where the Old Ones don't evolve or die off, but they come back - why, that fits the Lovely-craft description and explains in detail what is afoot in our modern real-time day-to-day experience. Everybody has a slightly different karmic vision, so that's why people tend to disagree about reality, and other little things, and it gets confusing.
preternatural
Isn;t the correct adjective praeterhuman? I mean, pr[a]eternatural suggests supernatural, which is a subject that we have debunked in some thread, long ago.
They might be likened to the primordial, or chaotic forces of various pantheons, such as the Babylonian descriptions of Tiamat and her fearsome brood in the Creation Epic.
Yeah. All historical roads lead back to Sumeria.
Personally, I am inclining to the notion of equating them with the primordial Kings of Edom of Qabbalistic significance, who reigned in former times then perished, but which are still very active forces on Qlippothic levels.
Say, I could go along with that one.
Atlantis and its culture, part of a literary creation by Plato with no other basis of existence in ancient texts.
And Plato's "text" was a novel, just like the one I am now reading (one or two pages at a time). Setting the "texts" aside, we do have monolithic structure, all around the world, that clearly state there was some global civilization that preceded our little group of Aeons. The term Atlantis is merely a convenient name-tag.
You are correct in saying that different folks have differing views. Everybody's belief system is intertwined with their karmic vision.
Nyarlathotep = Choronzon?
Probably. This is why the A.'.A.'. aspirant is required to work in both the magical and mystical realms. For example, one might study, talk to, and receive communication from alien, primordial, or ancient entities, but then one goes into "meditation" wherein all these concepts are neutralized or otherwise dismissed ...
Then, upon returning from "meditation," one is clear and fresh - and no New Ones or Old Ones are to be seen or even thought about. I have serious (well, at least Sirius) concerns about the practical reality of things under examination in this thread.
Separate the poser, and test the spirit; give the Chwal a bottle of Piman or gasoline to drink.
Now you're getting down to the practical stuff. I wonder if he'll accept diesel fuel?
" There would appear to be a misunderstanding in some quarters that the Occult Typhonian Order is concerned with reviving a type of worship believed to have been accorded to certain deities of remote antiquity. This is erroneous. The 'Typhonian' deities denote specific operations of psycho-sexual alchemy which involve essences or elixers secreted by the human organism under very special conditions. The system of marmas and power-zones used by Tantrics is arguably the most consistent systemization of such an alchemy surviving into present times. "
" The gods and goddesses, Osiris, Isis, and the child Horus are short hand for mystical and magical formulae implicit in the system. Our aim is not to promote a revival of exotic and ancient faiths, but to understand and to develop a tradition that is forever new...."
" The tradition is known as Typnonian not because it promotes doctrines of an 'evil' nature, as might be supposed by those uninitiated into its mysteries, but because it utilizes substances that are usually thrown out (vama) and considered unclean. "
"...visualize the sigil of the zone and shoot down obliquely into its atmosphere. If the descent is prolonged, a sensation of vertigo may supervene and compel hir to return to earth (waking state). This signal should not be resisted; s/he should merely relinquish the force that impels hir downwards and float up as gently as possible. If, during subsequent attempts, s/he is assailed by repeated attacks of vertigo or of nausea, it is usually a sign that the level of magical competence is unequal to the task, in which case the journey may be attempted in stages...the Lamanaut is advised to test hir degree of competency by exploring the lower tunnels of Set back of the tree of life, and to worm hir way upwards until s/he approaches as nearly as possible the outer pylons of the Muave Zone. Should s/he attain this level s/he may consolidate hir position by vibrating the mantras disclosed to hir...It is unwise to proceed further unless s/he receives unequivocal signs that the mantras are invoking the necessary DEVATAS who will act as guides beyond the pylons. "
Beyond The Mauve Zone pg 5,6
I actually don't really like their Solution, as I agree it seems too hodge podge and not scientific enough.
However
What I DO endorse is an agreement that Liber AL is a divine book as I don't think the verses and numbers encoding the Fibonacci Sequence and Golden Ratio is a coincidence or wishful thinking.
I find that part a bit mind blowing to be honest.
the verses and numbers encoding the Fibonacci Sequence and Golden Ratio
Have to look deeper into that. Thx.
The ritual was not employed "to unlock a mathematical code within Aleister Crowley's 'The Book of the Law' ", but to "Contact the Old Ones", per the instructions given to us by Kenneth Grant when he originally designed it.
Thanks for chiming in!
So I suppose asking, did the ritual work, might not be appropriate, but considering the tales from the annals of New Isis Lodge, as found in Mr. Grant's Hecate's Fountain, the parameters of success might be rather subjective, particularly if casualties, littering the pages, are objective.
Also, were you ever a dabbler, (or more), of the Schlagenkraft? Also how long were you in contact with Mr. Lavenda prior to coming to work on the book?
Thanks!
No, I have never been a dabbler, ever since I was admitted to the Typhonian O.T.O. in 1974 and even prior to that; either of the "Necronomicon" (Schlangekraft edition), or of any books by Aleister Crowley, or by Kenneth Grant. I had a full library of over 900 books on esoteric subjects before I lost most of them in a house fire in 2012.
At least that library is beginning to grow again!
Peter Levenda and I were in touch for 28 years (from 1991 until 2019) before he began assisting me in the compilation of my book; and that was because no one else would look at the material except Kenneth Grant and my magical partner (later, my Wife). Every prospective publisher that Kenneth Grant referred us to refused to assist us. In 2013, with the appearance of "The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic" I could see that Peter was a serious Student of the Typhonian origins of Magick -- and certainly well-read -- and since we were already in touch by e-mail, he was the logical choice as a prospective aid; since with over 20 published works under his belt he obviously had the right contacts in the publishing field. To my gratitude, he was only too happy to help.
My Wife died in 2019, which is why I needed another assistant. Kenneth Grant was also getting frustrated of the refusals by various publishers in the field.
Peter was originally supposed to be the editor of the book, written by myself and Ruth Keenan-Evans, but working with four of my full notebooks (out of over two dozen) he ended up having to write more than he had originally planned (since the pandemic set in and we worked entirely via the exchange of nearly 2,000 e-mails over two years' time). The publisher suggested "by Jeffrey D. Evans and Peter Levenda", as he already had a wide readership base.
Thank you for asking!
The ritual was not employed "to unlock a mathematical code within Aleister Crowley's 'The Book of the Law' ", but to "Contact the Old Ones", per the instructions given to us by Kenneth Grant when he originally designed it.
Hello Mr Evans, it's nice to see you here!
Your response does confirm my own initial impression of what the ritual was intended for. Is there anything else significant about the ritual and your uses of it that wasn't covered in this discussion that you'd be willing to share here?
Thank you for asking! (Drop the "Mr." and feel free to call me "Jeff").
The gender of the being I met on Key Bridge was certainly subjective, and Kenneth Grant identified it as my HGA several months later. I was hesitant to do so. The name was K'rla (pronounced ker-LA, not KAR-la like the feminine name). That gives it the value of 251, reflective of 152 (Naos, "Temple" or "Cell" in Greek, as in a cell of monks or nuns). Oddly, the meeting happened on July 23rd, which I did not know at that time was Rose Kelley's birthday. Peter Levenda told me that, over forty years later. "She" had suggested using the Joan Grant vision in "Cults of the Shadow" as an actual Rite, but when I mentioned that to Kenneth Grant in late 1977 he found out that I had also been an actor from a very young age, having excelled in playing characters such as Linus Larrabee in "Sabrina Fair" (played by Humphrey Bogart in the 1954 film version "Sabrina"), Henry Higgins in the musical "My Fair Lady", and Fagin in the musical "Oliver!" (played by Ron Moody in the movie version), as well as others. My actor-idol had been silent-film star Lon Chaney, "The Man of a Thousand Faces", who died in 1930.
I was a member of S.A.G. (Screen Actor's Guild, the Actor's Union), and had seriously studied the trilogy of Constantin Stanislavsky over the years. Kenneth Grant intended it to be a Dramatic ritual. Also, I am not a masochist, having never been into "pain" or "guilt". But people are going to think whatever they want to think, you know!
He and I began corresponding regularly after July 23rd, 1977, and when he designed the ritual with me and Ruth Keenan in1980 (on a trip to the U.K.) he suggested that we turn it into a Ritual of Alien Abduction and that I act as the "Priestess" (or earth female) in a Polarity Switch with my magical partner Ruth (later, my Wife) as the "Priest" because "You'll never find a Woman willing to experiment with such a Ritual", in his own words. Also, he did not tell us that the Male should always be the Priestess and the Female should always be the Priest, or opposite, any such homophobic idea. Two Men can perform the Rite; or two Women; but in such a case one of them should always "act the part" of the opposite sex. There always needs to be an astral Sexual Polarity.
He also suggested that I focus on the star Betelgeuse (or Ibt al-Ghauzi, Arabic for "The Arm of the Giant"), within the constellation of Orion. He found an Order member willing to allow us to stay at his commune briefly and I 'got into character' by going to a psychiatrist, acquiring legal permission to live as a Woman in only two weeks instead of the necessary two years time, and was able to obtain a driver's license in my chosen name; get my Family's approval, etc.; all in record time. I lived as a Woman for a total of nine months in upstate New York. I had also been admitted to the F.O.I. as a Priestess of Isis under Olivia Robertson of Glasgow, on Oct. 7th, 1980 under the name "Deborah Davis".
We had also found a Santero (Silo Crespo) in Miami who would work without arterial blood -- which Kenneth Grant disapproved of -- joined his Ile (House) of Yemanja (the orisha of Water), and I obtained my "warriors" (jagunjagun in Lucumi, the sacred language of the cult of the Yoruba), three special orishas that sit on a mat behind the entrance to the place of Working: Elegba, Ogun, and Ochosi; plus "the Watcher" Osun, who sits high up on a shelf facing the front door.
Elegba is primary among these, and contains a special stone known only to the "aborisha" and his Padrino ('God-Father"; I am an "aborisha" because I never became a full Santero.)
Ruth and I opened the series of Rituals over December 31st - Jan. 1st, 1980 - 1981, beginning with the LBR Pentagram, followed by the Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram from Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae; and Liber V, "The Ritual of the Mark of the Beast", closing again with the Pentagram Ritual. It made one of the members break the Circle and race upstairs to calm himself down. When we performed the actual Cell ritual, that scared the other people at the commune so much that they all chose to stay outside, and it was nearly two hours long. Very quickly we found out that the time was far too long, and it dropped down to about 20 minutes later. We stayed only nine months, then returned to Miami, when Kenneth Grant began designating the Miami PZ as "The K'rla Cell".
We continued to Work in Miami until 1984, with Ruth speaking in a kind of "glossalalia" interspersed with the names of the Cthulhu beings, as a language which either a Priestess of Isis captured by the Priests of the Pharaoh, or an earth-girl abducted by the Agents of the Old Ones, would not understand.
On April 2nd, 1984 there was a breakthrough when I went into a trance and discovered a number in Chapter I, verse 25 of "The Book of the Law". I had failed mathematics year after year in school since missing nine months between my first and second years, and I was changing schools year after year. Always "the new kid in class" with no friends, I went to eight different schools in twelve years, and hated the subject. I dropped it when I was fourteen years old, and took Latin instead.
I had been focusing on Betelgeuse as Kenneth Grant instructed, which (according to HPL at least) is supposed to be something like an "outpost" of the Old Ones, and I quickly discovered in 1984 that Halley's Comet would be passing not only through the Celestial Hexagon containing Orion, Sirius, and Betelgeuse, but also another three at the other quarters. These contain the 17 class-A stars in the sky from the perspective of earth, and after that discovery I found out (from "Star Names" by Richard Hinckley Allen) that the star Gamma Geminorum in sidereal Gemini is not only closer to Sirius than Betelgeuse, but was called al Hanah, "the Mark" by Arabian astronomers, as in a mark or brand on the neck of a camel or some other beast of burden.
In other words, a "Mark of the Beast". It is a Trinary star. Remember, I had performed The Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram in upstate New York in 1981, and these four Celestial Hexagons seem to correspond with the four Hexagrams as depicted by Crowley. I had also performed "The Ritual of the Mark of the Beast" with full tripetal spiral dance, both outward to the circumference of the Circle, and back in to the Center again; and, it is a trinary wobbling star. So, my focus shifted to al-Hanah. "The Ritual of the Mark of the Beast" is in the appendices in "Magick in Theory and Practice", and the Ritual is "Liber V".
I have seen it questioned, "Why would Aiwass encode phi in AL II:76?" But that misses the point. The "interpretation" of AL II:76 is a kind of afterthought, made very late. All of this is detailed in the book.
The mathematics that was coming through was a Fivefold mathematics similar to the geometry of the Old Ones as described by Lovecraft. We had apparently achieved the aim that Kenneth Grant set us on. We had "contacted the Old Ones", but had no idea from the beginning that anything like a number system would come through. I once asked Ruth (almost in despair), "If the Old Ones wanted to communicate Their mathematics to humanity, why would They choose a non-mathematician?"
"Maybe They needed a blank slate", she said.
Thank you.
@jeffrey-d-evans
welcome !
Can you tell us a little about Yemanja, Neptune, Nodens, Dagon, Malkunofat and the Mummy ?
Thank you for being here.
It is a Trinary star.
These things present an unusual configuration. Not just yin & yang, but in between (neutral, like a neutron in an atom). Evidence, gathered by the 5th ray scientists who do things I can't do, suggests that Sirius is trinary ... but they can't get a pic or a shadow or a reflection from something that nonetheless is influencing the two "visible" "stars." (Sirius B is not a true star - it is plasma without a core) - (no Hadit).
Pardon me for interrupting my own reading of this fascinating tale but, you see, I am a fan of trinaries.
... outward to the circumference of the Circle, and back in to the Center again; and, it is a trinary wobbling star.
Yes, you understand the unusual configuration.
My apologies regarding the use of the word "dabbler" .. what I should have said, in my attempt at a joke was...
"Have you been 'meddling' with the "Schlagenkraft"?
...upon the lines of Allan Bennett statement about AC regarding "meddling" with the Goetia.
I am sorry to hear about the loss of your wife and library...so it is good to know that you have a colleague in the work and a publisher! Ibis Press does make good books and some of you posts here are putting that chapter concerning your work in Beyond the Mauve Zone into some better context...as I am prompted to reread....
I look forward to getting the book!
HG
Thank you for asking! (Drop the "Mr." and feel free to call me "Jeff").
Thank you. Jeff it is!
The gender of the being I met on Key Bridge was certainly subjective, and Kenneth Grant identified it as my HGA several months later.
I have thought that the concept of gender is untimately subjective when it comes to the HGA, with how it manifests being determined by how it interfaces with the individual..
I was hesitant to do so. The name was K'rla (pronounced ker-LA, not KAR-la like the feminine name) .
I had thought that was how it was pronounced. 😀
Oddly, the meeting happened on July 23rd, which I did not know at that time was Rose Kelley's birthday.
Interesting synchronicity
he found out that I had also been an actor from a very young age, having excelled in playing characters such as Linus Larrabee in "Sabrina Fair" (played by Humphrey Bogart in the 1954 film version "Sabrina"), Henry Higgins in the musical "My Fair Lady", and Fagin in the musical "Oliver!" (played by Ron Moody in the movie version), as well as others. My actor-idol had been silent-film star Lon Chaney, "The Man of a Thousand Faces", who died in 1930.
I love old movies and theater.
I was a member of S.A.G. (Screen Actor's Guild, the Actor's Union), and had seriously studied the trilogy of Constantin Stanislavsky over the years.
Stanislavsky Method. Nice.
Also, I am not a masochist, having never been into "pain" or "guilt". But people are going to think whatever they want to think, you know!
Ine need not be a masochist to understand the efficacy of pain in ritual.
because "You'll never find a Woman willing to experiment with such a Ritual", in his own words.
I need to tell you I almost spat out a mouthful of very good Darjeeling tea all over my monitor after reading this.
What?!
I 'got into character' by going to a psychiatrist, acquiring legal permission to live as a Woman in only two weeks instead of the necessary two years time, and was able to obtain a driver's license in my chosen name; get my Family's approval, etc.; all in record time. I lived as a Woman for a total of nine months in upstate New York. I had also been admitted to the F.O.I. as a Priestess of Isis under Olivia Robertson of Glasgow, on Oct. 7th, 1980 under the name "Deborah Davis".
Wow! That is impressive! I admire your dedication!
We had also found a Santero (Silo Crespo) in Miami who would work without arterial blood -- which Kenneth Grant disapproved of -- joined his Ile (House) of Yemanja (the orisha of Water
With the idea of gender change involved, did this have anything to do with how some consider Yemanja the Patroness of Queers? ("queers" here encompassing the entire lgbt spectrum, including gender noncomforming)
and I obtained my "warriors" (jagunjagun in Lucumi, the sacred language of the cult of the Yoruba), three special orishas that sit on a mat behind the entrance to the place of Working: Elegba, Ogun, and Ochosi; plus "the Watcher" Osun, who sits high up on a shelf facing the front door.
I am familair with the Warriors and Osun 😀
Ruth and I opened the series of Rituals over December 31st - Jan. 1st, 1980 - 1981, beginning with the LBR Pentagram, followed by the Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram from Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae; and Liber V, "The Ritual of the Mark of the Beast", closing again with the Pentagram Ritual. It made one of the members break the Circle and race upstairs to calm himself down.
Just from that?
When we performed the actual Cell ritual, that scared the other people at the commune so much that they all chose to stay outside, and it was nearly two hours long. Very quickly we found out that the time was far too long, and it dropped down to about 20 minutes later.
Wow! two hours is impressive!
This is very interesting to me. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've done work involving sensory deprivation, sexual stimulation,and intense trance induction too, and I've worked with similar polarity shifting as well.
The mathematics that was coming through was a Fivefold mathematics similar to the geometry of the Old Ones as described by Lovecraft. We had apparently achieved the aim that Kenneth Grant set us on. We had "contacted the Old Ones", but had no idea from the beginning that anything like a number system would come through. I once asked Ruth (almost in despair), "If the Old Ones wanted to communicate Their mathematics to humanity, why would They choose a non-mathematician?"
I had thought that any kind of "secret key" would have been a result rather than the intent of the ritual. What I had read about it made it sound more like something made for receiving some form of gnosis in general.
Maybe mathematics was just how they'd chosen to communicate, or how your consciousness interpreted the transmission? It is the closest humanity has to a universal language.
Was the work in upstate New York at the "Math of the Crystal Hum" perchance?
@tiger Yemanja (Brazilian sp -- there are so many of them!) has Thursday as her day. The Sphere of Jupiter in the Qabalah Denudata (Lesser Holy Assembly) is represented by one number: 194. Not several, so you cannot pick a word, and if you don't like it or it doesn't fit your expectations, cast it out and pick another. That way, you are building a house of cards. The best approach to Qabalah should be a bit more precise. It is a numerical science, not a "pick and choose" word-game like a crossword puzzle. Yemanja, Neptune, Nodens, Dagon, Malkunofat and the Mummy are icons representative of six powers. The Ori Inu (Ruler of the Head) of my Godfather is Yemanja, which is why I am in an Ile (or house) of Yemanja. 194 divided by phi to the tenth power, minus one (or ego), with an index of negative two, produces the successive multiples 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, and the base number of these is 9: the number of the moon, the element of which is Water. See Liber 777, Col. XXXVIII, line 29 (Pisces), where the sacred animal of Neptune is the Dolphin. In the same column, line 13, the sacred animal of Gimel as the Moon is the Dog. The number of Gimel is 3, and yemanja forms a triune power with the orishas obatala (son of olorun), and chango, equated with Mars. My ori inu is obatala; the ori inu of my wife was chango; so the three of us formed a perfect triad. Yemanja, Neptune, Nodens, Dagon, Malkunofat and the Mummy all preside over the depths. Yemanja is the orisha of fresh water. Neptune (one of whose symbols is the trident: see above) is the Roman god of freshwater, counterpart of the Greek Poseidonis. Nodens (who was equated on most inscriptions with Mars as a healer, rather than as a warrior) is mist, haze or fog, all forms of water, from the Welsh noun nudd, also both Llud and Nuadu. Scholars have also linked the Celtic names with the stem neud- (cf. Gothic nutan, "to catch, acquire", and nuta, "catcher, fisherman". These imply several likely influences on Tolkien's writings, including the Elvish smith, maker of Rings of Power, Celembrimbor, wose name means "silver-hand". Silver is the color of the moon, the number of which is 9. It is also the color of the fish, who lives in the water. Dagon is the Ruler of the Deep Ones in the Cthulhu Mythos, and lives in the Depth of the Water. Malkunofat and Mummy both begin with the letter of Water of the three Mother-letters, and are both representative of death. Malkunofat presides over death and sacrifice, and the mummy is a symbol of both. Cf. the modern-day practice of the scattering of ashes over the water, after death. Of course, there is much more.
@katrice Two hours is also dangerous!
Given the nature of the ritual, I have no doubt. The similar work I've done never had a session go that long.
I'm curious, in the bondage aspect of the working, was there ever any suspension involved?
These imply several likely influences on Tolkien's writings, including the Elvish smith, maker of Rings of Power, Celembrimbor, wose name means "silver-hand"
Also influencing Moorcock later in his second Corum series.
Hi @jeffrey-d-evans
" so you cannot pick a word, and if you don't like it or it doesn't fit your expectations, cast it out and pick another. That way, you are building a house of cards. The best approach to Qabalah should be a bit more precise. It is a numerical science, not a "pick and choose" word-game like a crossword puzzle. "
I do a poetic math; in which i add, subtract , multiply , divide and see how things hold up.
I noticed Grant put Malkunofat along with The Hanged Man and Quliefi as The Moon though Crowley has line 29 as Pisces and line 23 as Water.
Any thoughts, comments ?
It is said that the Cuban Santeria version of Yemaya and the Brazilian Candomblé Yemanjá She represents the waters of the sea and maternity, her day is Saturday. In The Yoruban Ifa Yemoja she is associated with Creation, water, motherhood, rivers, lakes, streams, wells, pregnant women, fishermen, shipwreck survivors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yem%E1%BB%8Dja
Any thoughts, comments ?
I loved you description of Nodens.
Thank you.
It is a numerical science, not a "pick and choose" word-game like a crossword puzzle.
Actually, a crossword puz is like a magic square talisman, and it is pretty well locked in to "get it eight or lose the game."
If you read regularly around here, you will note that there are two major QBL camps. The first is anally-precise, but employs counting methods that are "new" to a traditional QBList. They come up with specific proofs, like their name, or a number that equals some other number/word that has some importance.
The second group likes to imitate AC, and they will do things likeinvent BafometR, or the summit presentation of Climbing eLGMOR
https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/the-race-to-conquer-elgmor-a-review/
Sitting in between the two groups, and their tentacled offshoots, there is Ignant and myself. I know Ignant does the same thing that I do because he recently solved some riddle, proving that he was chosen, and he did this by following the basic rules of QBL as taught by Bennett to AC, before AC learned how to fiddle in order to improve outcomes (Aha! 418, again!).
So he and I use the 777 Tables, and we accept the first result. Fiddling to get 418 (from 417) is forbidden, oh Qabalist, unto thee and he/she. Now I don't want to hold out the image that there are only two pure (haha) Qabalists - but I don't know of any others (around here). Everybody else seems to be presenting a variation, modification, or alteration of the basic ABCs.
So if you (anyone) is a purist, please speak up. You only need say, "Yes," and we will know that the core tradition is still alive.
Having writ all that, which is but a feeble attempt to maintain the "original" correspondences (which work just dandy as they are), I must also drag out my unpainted soap box (or is it a box of Chinese fortune cookies?) and toss out the Two Basic Reminders ...
QBL is a system for ordering the mind. It is not a system for creating or figuring out how to get liberated. The mind must be "ordered" (i.e., balanced) so that it will not interfere when it's time to give it up. Oh, it will still interfere, but (hopefully) all this number-letter stuff will have been ordered - then one can deal with the real deal (self-effacement).
Every initiate must build their own QBL. Yeah, memorizing somebody else's system may get one started, but no diploma can be issued (to one's self by one's self) until it all lines up - think of a feather on your crown; how does it do in the windy city of mental confusion or order? The problem with most system that start with 777 and then "modify" the rules are completely acceptable - just don't expect them to be understood or accepted by others (who either speak 777, or are content with their own construction and don't care) unless some astounding (simple, clear) revelation is included.
I rest my box.
following the basic rules of QBL as taught by Bennett to AC
Which are that: The fiddling (if any) is supposed to be in the interpretation, not the math.
If you are unable to interpret any numerical result as meaningful, and need to fudge to get the "right" numbers, like so many i will not name, you maybe should consider... working at different things.
Your pal always,
The Only Other Pure QBL-ist
The Only Other Pure QBL-ist
I AM still waiting for anybody, hopefully anybodys, to come forward and admit they do it the old-fashioned way, before BafometR. Now I'm wondering, if somebody comes out of the closet, will their dues have to be paid in advance?
@michael-staley Have you ever wondered whether -- or if so, why -- Aiwass encoded 93, or 418, in "The Book of the Law", Michael? I'm sorry to be blunt, but you write as though you haven't even read "The Book of the Law", lately. Have you done more than "skim through" the book "Rites of the Mummy: the K'rla Cell and the Secret Key to Liber AL", yet? f you had, you might have noticed that Starfire, Ltd. was mentioned in the footnotes quite frequently, and even that you had been acknowledged and praised personally, for your very fine work, in the Acknowledgements at the end of the book. I thank you for your gratitude, for that.
It is a numerical science, not a "pick and choose" word-game like a crossword puzzle.
Actually, a crossword puz is like a magic square talisman, and it is pretty well locked in to "get it eight or lose the game."
If you read regularly around here, you will note that there are two major QBL camps. The first is anally-precise, but employs counting methods that are "new" to a traditional QBList. They come up with specific proofs, like their name, or a number that equals some other number/word that has some importance.
The second group likes to imitate AC, and they will do things likeinvent BafometR, or the summit presentation of Climbing eLGMOR
https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/the-race-to-conquer-elgmor-a-review/Sitting in between the two groups, and their tentacled offshoots, there is Ignant and myself. I know Ignant does the same thing that I do because he recently solved some riddle, proving that he was chosen, and he did this by following the basic rules of QBL as taught by Bennett to AC, before AC learned how to fiddle in order to improve outcomes (Aha! 418, again!).
So he and I use the 777 Tables, and we accept the first result. Fiddling to get 418 (from 417) is forbidden, oh Qabalist, unto thee and he/she. Now I don't want to hold out the image that there are only two pure (haha) Qabalists - but I don't know of any others (around here). Everybody else seems to be presenting a variation, modification, or alteration of the basic ABCs.
So if you (anyone) is a purist, please speak up. You only need say, "Yes," and we will know that the core tradition is still alive.
Having writ all that, which is but a feeble attempt to maintain the "original" correspondences (which work just dandy as they are), I must also drag out my unpainted soap box (or is it a box of Chinese fortune cookies?) and toss out the Two Basic Reminders ...
QBL is a system for ordering the mind. It is not a system for creating or figuring out how to get liberated. The mind must be "ordered" (i.e., balanced) so that it will not interfere when it's time to give it up. Oh, it will still interfere, but (hopefully) all this number-letter stuff will have been ordered - then one can deal with the real deal (self-effacement).
Every initiate must build their own QBL. Yeah, memorizing somebody else's system may get one started, but no diploma can be issued (to one's self by one's self) until it all lines up - think of a feather on your crown; how does it do in the windy city of mental confusion or order? The problem with most system that start with 777 and then "modify" the rules are completely acceptable - just don't expect them to be understood or accepted by others (who either speak 777, or are content with their own construction and don't care) unless some astounding (simple, clear) revelation is included.
I rest my box.
Ah, but good literal Qabalah should not be mixed up with numerology. That mixes up a lot of so-called Qabalists.
Your last three paragraphs are wholeheartedly good!
I'm sorry to be blunt, but you write as though you haven't even read "The Book of the Law", lately.
I first came across The Book of the Law in the late 1960s, and have read it many times since then. But no, I haven't read it from cover to cover just lately. There are certain aspects of the Book which interest me more than others – the Nuit chapter for instance, into whose verses I dip frequently.
Have you done more than "skim through" the book "Rites of the Mummy: the K'rla Cell and the Secret Key to Liber AL", yet?
No, I haven't. I'm sorry to be blunt, but I have no particular interest in the work of the K'rla Cell. In the late 1990s I was working with Kenneth Grant to prepare the first edition of Beyond the Mauve Zone for publication, and the chapter on the K'rla Cell working didn't particularly interest me. Neither did it particularly interest me in 2016, when I was preparing the second edition of the book with Steffi Grant.
I have my own interests which I am pursuing, which I regard as the heart of Kenneth Grant's work: Nu-Isis, the resurgance of consciousness/imagination throughout Space and Time – multi-facetted, all-pervasive, pan-dimensional. Most Thelemites I have come across respect the fact that other Thelemites have their own interests, which might not include the interests which some others might find absorbing.
If you had, you might have noticed that Starfire, Ltd. was mentioned in the footnotes quite frequently, and even that you had been acknowledged and praised personally, for your very fine work, in the Acknowledgements at the end of the book. I thank you for your gratitude, for that.
Thank you.
good literal Qabalah should not be mixed up with numerology.
Agreed. I tend to make a distinction between the two whenever I get out my QBL soap box. I don't think I mentioned that in my short-long sermon.
Most Thelemites I have come across respect the fact that other Thelemites have their own interests, which might not include the interests which some others might find absorbing.
Well, ain't this the Truth, now?
The ritual was not employed "to unlock a mathematical code within Aleister Crowley's 'The Book of the Law' ", but to "Contact the Old Ones", per the instructions given to us by Kenneth Grant when he originally designed it.
I was following this for some time now and I appreciate a lot you chiming in and clearing up stuff. But I have to ask: is the "the Secret Key to Liber AL" part of the book's title only click-bait? At least it got ME buying the book. I guess I have truthfully responded to what is called in the book "the Secret Key to Liber AL" and I guess I was not alone in thinking it was nonsense (the part pertaining to the Liber AL puzzle solution). Like Michael Staley I have my own interests and the K'rla Cell is not on top of the list, but the Liber AL cypher solution is quite near the top (when it comes to "occult" interests), so I would really like to know your view on what was advertised as "the solution". Thanks in advance.
Sitting in between the two groups, and their tentacled offshoots, there is Ignant and myself. I know Ignant does the same thing that I do because he recently solved some riddle, proving that he was chosen, and he did this by following the basic rules of QBL as taught by Bennett to AC, before AC learned how to fiddle in order to improve outcomes (Aha! 418, again!).
Shiva,
Can you or Iggers show the calculations in regards to what riddle you are talking about?
Reason being I am still trodging through 777 my own self.
best to yall
Can you or Iggers show the calculations in regards to what riddle you are talking about?
You have to revisit the Trikey thread.
Can you or Iggers show the calculations in regards to what riddle you are talking about?
Oh, it seems like it was only recently. Probably in the last 3 moons. It's clearly posted in one of those "solution" threads. Sorry, I don't know which one. I've had poor luck with the LAShTAL "Search" function ... but I'd look under Ignant, in that place where "posts" are listed under his profile..
the Trikey thread.
Aha! A clue, a guide, a place to use PayPal.
Because it doesn't require remembering some unicode character, and can be typed in from a standard keyboard?
Just as no one includes the degree character, or whatever the little square thing is called, in OTO or AA degrees.
Why does everyone write .'. instead of ∴ -- ?
Because one has to be a mentat that learns Morse Keyboard code to insert "special characters." The Greek "therefore" symbol is hardly used by any normal person, and "everyone" here is not a Borg-embedded nerd who knows how to type anything above the standard letters and numbers.
There is no "therefore" symbol on any keyboard. ".'." is the closest approximation to the esoteric "∴" , In my books, I always use the secret three-dot widget.
Because it doesn't require remembering some unicode character, and can be typed in from a standard keyboard?
I see absolutely no reason why you feel the need to apply common sense to this contusion, which is far more important than, say, some QBL code.
whatever the little square thing is called,
A square.
There is no "therefore" symbol on any keyboard. ".'." is the closest approximation to the esoteric "∴"
My God, there's a "∴"? How very cool. Must update my txt.
My God, there's a "∴"? How very cool. Must update my txt.
I find it easy enough to access on my iMac. Control + Command + spacebar brings up several symbolic character sets, and this is in the "Math Symbols" subset.
Aha! If only i was still running a Mac OS on my Mac...
Does anyone now the equivalent command/key combo for Ubuntu Linux? No key combo i tried brought up such a menu.
What i usually do when i really want a "special character", such as the ™ symbol to append to "The Horus Toy™", is type the name of the symbol into a search engine, eg "tm symbol".
Of course, having somehow gotten a PhD without any math between junior year of high school and stats in grad school, i have no idea what the "∴" (copy and pasted from above post) means (outside of an occult/Masonic context), or is called, so that method wouldn't work for "∴".
Does anyone now the equivalent command/key combo for Ubuntu Linux?
I've heard of people installing that operating system on their Macs. I have Windows XP capability via Parallel Desktops, used for running reports in a old programming language (Clipper) which unfortunately only runs on Windows. Unfortunately I can't help you out with the Linux key combination which would bring up those subsets.
i have no idea what the "∴" (copy and pasted from above post) means (outside of an occult/Masonic context), or is called, so that method wouldn't work for "∴".
It's the symbol for "therefore", though you and I and many others here and hereabouts would see it in the first place as the symbol to go after the A in for instance A∴ A∴, though I more usually use the same symbol inverted for more nefarious purposes.
Waitaminnit, so ("mindblown.gif") does this imply that the symbol as used in the esoteric orders are used as Greek "therefores"? So it's "Silver therefore Star therefore," etc. What does that even mean?
What does that even mean?
Yes, it it used in physics, chemistry, etc, as meanin "therefore." In esoteric use, it means "Esoteric Abbreviation," and is mostly used after names of Orders or individual initiates (like P.'.). It does not mean "therefore" in the secret realm - only out there.
Occult use of ∴ comes i think from the Freemasons, who use ∴ a lot.
One of their key phrases is "Salutations on all points of the triangle!" and i think this is where it comes from?