Welcome to Lashtal, einDoppelganger. Glad you've made the transition from lurker to poster, and I hope that we hear more from you in the future.

Yes, the Order does maintain the "limited degree work" and this is something that will be developed over the coming years and decades. The emphasis will continue to be on initiation through magical and mystical experience - some arising through gradework, some through work done outside the gradework.

I won't take the discussion of the Order beyond that in a public forum. If you wish to discuss the matter further, please email me at starfire.books@btinternet.com

Best wishes,

Michael.

Does TOTO have an official website? I know there is a TOTO section on Koenig's website, but as far as I know it is not any kind of official web presence....

No, there's no website; nor is there likely to be one.

Is there a relationship between Typhonian OTO and the so-called OTO inc? Can one be a member of both?

Is there a relationship between Typhonian OTO and the so-called OTO inc? Can one be a member of both?

From what I have seen on here - in a previous thread - some of the people in the respective groups seem pretty antagonistic to one another. I was insulted on the boards by someone who appeared to be related to the Typhonians....so I have a very poor impression of them. Only my opinion.

I was insulted on the boards by someone who appeared to be related to the Typhonians....so I have a very poor impression of them

Michael-I recall the slight that was dealt your way and was in agreement with our webmaster that it was an inappropriate rudeness. Not everyone who raves about Kenneth Grant and related themes represents the Typhonians, however, and as one who is myself associated with this group, I am all for some common courtesy, respect and good humor amongst us all, regardless of what camps we affiliate with. There's a difference between impassioned postings here and mean-spirited snideness, the latter of which I hardly think has anything to do with Typhonian Mysticism, Magick or the general tenor of the group. People need to be responsible for their themselves and evaluated accordingly. I myself have had many interactions with members of the "Caliphate," some of whom were cocky, rude and juvenile-others whom have my deepest respect as individuals. It's too bad when someone's ill manners drag down the impression of a larger group they are associated with. But we've witnessed the same thing with regards to the works of Aleister Crowley in general, yes?

93,

Kyle

Kyle,
Well, I think it was rather more than a 'slight' but, none the less, the person appeared to be something of a spokesman - probably self appointed - for the Typhonians.

But I am curious whether this person is personally known to you or not?

I think it was rather more than a 'slight'

You're correct. It was a rude insult, masked as humor.

But I am curious whether this person is personally known to you or not?

I've never spoken with the offending party outside of our forums here on Lashtal.

My understanding is that the individual concerned, though relatively prominent in Typhonian publications, is not a spokesman of any kind for "the Typhonians". You will further recall that I removed the offending post and dealt with the offensive remark outside the thread under discussion.

Back to Perdurex's question;

The only person on the list I have seen considered a spokesman for the Typhonian OTO would be Michael Staley. I'm sure he would be able to answer your question from the standpoint of the Typhonian OTO. As for how "OTO Inc." would look at "dual-citizenship" I am not sure who to ask.

Scott

How about going to the official website of the O.T.O.: http://www.oto.org and writing the Secretary General?

I personally find the "Typhonians/Grantians/Lamians" that I have encountered in these forums to be quite intelligent and polite, with the occasional exception, as noted above by others. Yes, the 'Lion would likely lie down with the Lam, now and then, as Michael quipped in the Chat Box. 🙂

Hi Perdurex!
What is the reason for it?
The ceremony itself does an initial kick, and it's successfull passing gives approximately 3 - 5% of transformation, according with acquired grade. Last 95% of the work has to be made by the student with it's own.

The strenth of the 'kick' depends on the personal strenth of hierophant.
So, feel your current - it will bring you to your one.

I can't image the way these ceremonies could be useful carrying them out twice.

And... it doesn't matter where you are - in OTO, in TOTO, in BOTO. No one kind of administrative division can divide the Brotherhood, that mentioned in Liber AL!

As for me, there could be members in my order, whom I will not accept, as brothers, and there could be members from other order or just free people, whom I would like to call brother/sister.

=)

BOTO - Beyond OTO?

Oh, yeah, cool interpretation, I like it)))
But naturally Basileus OTO

😉

Individuall members of the Caliphate have cordial relations with members of the Typhonian Order, and vice-versa. Personally, I have the greatest respect for Mr. Staley and Mr. & Mrs. Grant, and am glad and happy to support their present and future publishing efforts with my purchases.

Extrapolating from what I already know from 20 years experience, membership in both organizations would be permitted in the Caliphate's point of view, as far as I know, just as membership in the Temple of Set, Church of Satan, AMORC, or one of the Golden Dawn factions is allowed. As long as the oaths that one is bound to in one organization do not interfere with the oaths that one is bound to in another, there should be no problem or question.

I was tempted to join them many years ago but was told that I would have to leave the caliphate if I wanted to join them

This might have changed since last time (five years ago) I inquired, but as far as I know membership with the Typhonian O.T.O. is incompatible with membership in the O.T.O. The same goes also for S.O.T.O., U.R.O.T.O. or any other claimant to the title out there.

Has anyone - possibly a member of one - tried to join the other?

I suspect that most people would probably feel that they already have enough on their plate....

Already answered above. The TOTO said I would have to leave the caliphate to join them

Does this mean that you are considering apostasizing and applying for membership of the Typhonian Order, Aztec Lord of Death ? Doubtless, you would make a suitable partner for Camazotz, Mayan Lord 'Death-Bat'.

Or am I just being presumptious ?

Regards - S.A.

You are being presumptuous. Back then I was looking at various things and thought people may be allowed to be in both until I looked into it. we are talking about 10-12 years ago now!!!

Well, that's fair enough. Felt that this topic was simply fizzling out and that I might provoke something else of interest.

I don't really appreciate why someone should wish to be a member of two different O.T.O.s at the same time, I have to admit.

"I don't really appreciate why someone should wish to be a member of two different O.T.O.s at the same time, I have to admit."

I wouldn't worry about it SA. For this happens to be an absolute impossibility today.

I don't really appreciate why someone should wish to be a member of two different O.T.O.s at the same time, I have to admit.

It would expose one to different view points ?

Yes, Spurious Simon, it is indeed an "aaaaaaabsolute impossibility today" (that is a typo, but what the hell). I ain't worrying about it - better things to worry about, to be sure.

But Tiger, Suggests that it exposes one to different views: So very true. The Typhonian Order ( I have quite accustomed myself to using that terminology since the O.T.O. Lamen "trade mark" dispute - "the O.T.O. Lamen is trademark "- how does that square with the Rights of Man (And Woman) as regards LIBER OZ - a sublime blasphemy in my peculiar way of thinking),. So hay, back to the point: The Typhonian point of view is that THELEMA is wild and free, and allows you to encompass the imagination of the Self - in its disciplined being of awareness of the flow of the Universal Current - a self-realized spontaneity of space and time in their sublime and eternally recurring Orgasm !

Is that a reasonable response to a reasonable question ??

I hope not.

Love is the law, love under will.

Satan's Advocaat.
____________________________

The Children of Transgression are the Dragons of the Law.

while simultaneously being the exact opposite of those.

while simultaneously being the exact opposite of those

You're really into this whole "balance thing," aren't you, Cam? 😉

I think its worth noting though that SA did continue to describe that "wild freedom"

in its disciplined being of awareness of the flow of the Universal Current

All things that we can peg with qualities imply the opposite side of the coin. Expanse (Jupiter) is balanced out in Contraction (Saturn) and so on. There is a repeated theme in KG's books of one calling upon and being cast into those states of "imbalance" (such as his references to Rimbaud's "conscious derangememt of the senses" and so on) and yet this invoked state of "imbalance" requires the magician to operate with skill in the situation to FIND THE BALANCE THEREIN. Therefore, the approach resembles movement (perpetual imbalance seeking balance) as opposed to stasis. The wild poetry of Grant's work is evocative not of one's colorful collapse into ruin but the phantastic Going of Hadit.

Yes, I like to emphasize (ad nausium) that as boundless as Thelema (true Will) is, we are just as irrevocably bound to it, and vice versa. As you know well, this has so often been the crux of many a heated dispute in these very forums over the last couple of years, with one insisting "no, it is utterly boundless" and another saying "no, it is strictly bound." All the while, each camp is equally mistaken because it is, and must be, both at once. Occasionally, this somehow comes down to the 'Typhonion bastards vs the Caliphate bastards,' but also many other sorts of bastards enter the fray, including myself, the would-be balanced bastard. 🙂

Honestly, Camlion, as "different" as the respective approaches might be, it seems to me that both the Caliphate and Typhonian Orders are rooted in foundational works by Crowley, which includes Liber Librae. It's a lesson at the get-go and its implications and use carries on far down the road of life's adventure. However, just because balance is advocated, insisted upon and given as a guide, it doesn't necessarily follow that the "Thelemites" have mastered this skill. Hence, chiding, encouragement, sharing of perspectives, private guidance and so on. But if the Great Work is likened to an Alchemical Process, we find this theme underlying it. How it applies to our particular circumstances will always be a unique and specific thing. "One Law for the Lion and Ox is Oppression." - William Blake.

An interesting point. Might I assume this to be true? I assume that Grant's personal work must have been rooted in foundational works by Crowley, since Grant was a student of Crowley's. But what of the Typhonian system today? Is the work of an entry level Typhonian necessarily rooted in foundational works by Crowley? Are Crowley's works required study or practice by these individuals, as they were for Grant himself?

Is the work of an entry level Typhonian necessarily rooted in foundational works by Crowley? Are Crowley's works required study or practice by these individuals, as they were for Grant himself?

The Preliminary Statement of the Order indicates that the Typhonian Order does not undertake the training of novices. It is a specialized organization with focus on activities of a unique nature. It is specified that one of the requirements for admittance is a formal acceptance of the Law of Thelema as described in Liber Legis. One's familiarity with the "foundational work" is thus assumed and likewise evaluated during the Probationary Period. As I indicated above, each Star is unique and thus the requirements of the individual must be ascertained individually. This is similar to the approach of the A.A.

Ah, then what I always say about the Typhonian system, that "it is potentially supplementary to the works of Crowley for individuals so inclined," must be true. 🙂

Ah, then what I always say about the Typhonian system, that "it is potentially supplementary to the works of Crowley for individuals so inclined," must be true.

Perhaps as a branch is "supplementary" to the Tree. Of course, Crowley's system Itself is also a Branch. And on it goes. Stand where you are. Do What Thou Wilt. 🙂

So far as I understand, the Typhonian Order doesn't carry out the Masonic styled Initiation ceremonies, so if one wished, for whatever reason, to be involved with both organizations (if this were possible) they wouldn't be going through the same ceremonies twice.

so if one wished, for whatever reason, to be involved with both organizations (if this were possible) they wouldn't be going through the same ceremonies twice

This is very true.

I will add that I see no need for conflict between the two organizations in question. I was recently having a discussion with a close friend who remarked that although most modern occultists view Freemasonry as "passe," he found its initiations to be very profound. I agreed. Done right and done well, it can leave a truly deep and lasting impact upon the psyche. Some who are involved with less "Masonically Inclined" groups have sneered at the (C) OTO's use of Neo-Masonic ritual. I disagree with this stance as I have found great value in such work, for those so-inclined. From a Typhonian perspective, it should be noted that KG makes numerous allusions to Masonic Rites, albeit with a highly esoteric interpretation.

I see no need for conflict between the two organizations in question

I'll clarify that I am referring to the Typhonian Order and the Masonic Order. 🙂

Well risking being a center of pestilence, I will give my view on what being a center of pestilence means. I take it to mean when we dogmatise we destroy.

The sad thing is that, as a member of small, esoteric groups that are largely unheard of by the masses (and largely unheard of in an accurate light, thanks to those who are willing to disparage NRMs), we are inherently representatives of the respective groups we are members of. For example, I am a Thelemite and a member of the O.T.O. but I know that basically, every time I interact with someone and tell them that I am a Thelemite, that people are going to judge Thelema based on who I am and how I behave.

Is this unfair? Absolutely. This means that people all over the world are getting divergently different perceptions of Thelema/O.T.O./whatever, perceptions that they would not have if the people introducing the concept to them were switched. But it's not unreasonable. I experience the same thing being a transsexual woman in Denver, a lesbian as I travel across the United States and Canada, etc. People generally base their opinions based on who they know, which is why people who know gay people in a positive way are more likely to vote for their rights to be expanded than those who do not.

"every time I interact with someone and tell them that I am a Thelemite, that people are going to judge Thelema based on who I am and how I behave"

That's true. As it is with ANY religion, political affiliation and so on. And EVERY group has its bad apples. Every group has its GOOD apples (well, MOST of them-!). Is your point to "Call All Thelemites" to a conduct standard whereby people won't think "Good Christ! What's THIS shit?"

I remember a Jehovah's Witness who I once worked with. We would argue and argue over religion. This was great fun as our mutual job was horrifyingly dull. At one point, he said "Look! Just read THIS!" He handed me the JW guide to witnessing. I still have it. Hardcover. This book contained a "proper" response to every objection to the person at your door. Not the sort of thing you normally have handed over to you. I guess I just fried this guy's nerves.

Among the responses was the advice on how to dress and the particular advice to use breath mints. After all, some fetid blast from mouth could cost a person...their soul!

I suppose a Kirby salesperson could benefit from the same advice. So is "Thelema" something we're SELLING or something we're DOING?

DWTW could express itself in ways that are counterproductive to "selling the message."

So , WHAT, exactly, is this "Thelema?" Is it something revealed to us through this guy, Aleister? Something we need to be careful with as we try to integrate it into society?

Is "Horus" at risk of getting his wings clipped if we don't do this right?

Or are really selling a group? A club?

When I was involved in Freemasonry, I recall an older member talking about how he really didn't like the image of the skull, how it made people think we were "Satanists." This, for him, was a hurdle to get over in becoming an acceptable element in modern society.

I'm sure we could push Liber Al with greater effectiveness if we got over all that peck out the eyes of Jesus and make "cakes" from menstrual blood and...well, you get the picture. And if we just didn't Do What Thou Wilt, people might listen. After all, it's worked for the religions that are killing us, eh?

All I'm saying is that the sentiments I see in your post are the same I've heard in those (anathema!) "old aeon" religions.

It's my thought that the "New Aeon" is not only a philosophic upgrade but a switch in Modus Operandi!

What do you think...?

Wow!   What a rare collector's item.
It's true. ANY interaction with a Witness open the door to endless dialogue - as they seem to have the answer to eveything or any position. Except one ...
[move:32oropv3]"No, thank you!" >>> [close door].[/move:32oropv3]

[/align:32oropv3]

http://www.cftf.com/miller/ [/align:32oropv3]You asked ... "So , WHAT, exactly, is this "Thelema?"
Oh, it's a word, and a philosophy, and a concept, and a force.
Some say it's a religion, while others bristle at the very thought.
It is subject to all manner of dispute and debate, as can be verified by reading a few lashtal forum threads on the subject.

The word/philo/concept/force was in use long before Aleister incarnated. But for us (the bystanders in the AC Society), we can at least say that he (AC) pointed this way of thinking out to us - perhaps more strenuously and single-pointedly than some of those other guys.

Something we need to be careful with as we try to integrate it into society?
If one is going to talk about it, and [gasp] name it aloud, and become a conscious hero in its promulgation, yeah, a bit of caution and common sense might be in order. The world (portions of it) are like mean dogs who snap and snarl at every thing that is new, everything that is different.

Other folks will forego shooting their mouths off and simply live the concept as they observe the fourth power of the sphinx.

Is "Horus" at risk of getting his wings clipped if we don't do this right?
Such a question can only be answered by each individual, for the answer is dependent upon what "Horus" MEANS to the solitary mentat.

Or are (we?) really selling a group? A club?
There are rumors that some folks have joined one or more clubs - associations based on common interest, but not necessarily of work. And then one sometimes hears about a serious, working group - but we hear less about them, for their work tends to be shrouded in thin or thick veils - not much "selling" here. Oh Lord, then there are those ronin* who are commonly called "independent Thelemites" - Fools, flabbergasters and finely-tuned alike.

* A ronin is a "masterless samurai."

It's my thought that the "New Aeon" is not only a philosophic upgrade but a switch in Modus Operandi!
Well, of course it is.

What do you think...?
As little as possible. It seems like all problems are immediately solved if one can simply stop thinking.

Neither of the current groups OTO and TOTO hold any interest for me....and neither seem to embody the real spirit of thelema, as I understand it. Maybe there is another group?

"neither seem to embody the real spirit of thelema"

Can you elaborate on what you envision the "real spirit of thelema" to be?

While it’s still in my mind, let me say that I’m reminded of an account I read of one person who managed to stump a JW by asking if there is free will in Heaven. “Of course,” came the response. “And is there evil in Heaven?” And the response was, “Oh, of course not.”

“So…if God can create a world with free will *and* no evil, why didn’t he just do that to begin with?”

If the story is to be believed, the JWs ran from that conversation like there was no tomorrow, falling back on the lame “You have to have faith” and then excusing themselves.

It’s also interesting to me how they operate in pairs (like the Sith, “always two there are”)

What do you think...?
As little as possible.

Hey, you said it, not me.

It seems like all problems are immediately solved if one can simply stop thinking.

“Problems” don’t actually exist: they’re just creations of the mind, and they only exist inside an individual’s head. Shutting off thoughts doesn’t “solve” problems (because the language of “solution” is part of the illusion of “problems” in the first place), but it does (temporarily) make those problems go away (or, rather, you can perceive that they're not really there in the first place).

But the problem is – forgive my play of words there – you get those problems right back the moment you start thinking, which people cannot help but do (even if they do it poorly much of the time....)

On a more practical level, shutting off thought is a great help to discovering the True Will. But shutting off thought is a huge hindrance to tasks that require thought, such as, for example, learning what Thelema actually is, what a True Will is, and how one goes about discovering it in the first place.

Well, since Thelema is a system that deals with individual action -- and since no one else can observe your Self and directly assist you in the task -- no group is gong to "embody the spirit of Thelema" in that sense.

Some groups, though, have goals that we might call "Thelemic" in the sense of "pertaining to Thelema." The OTO, for example, has as one of its stated goals the promulgation of Thelema.

An interesting question would be how that promulgation is going. The answer seems to be “not very well,” judging from the fact that practically no one has even heard of Thelema.

I think a primary reason for this – and this ties into Shiva’s recommendation to avoid thinking, above – is the weird belief that the Comment means no one is allowed to discuss what Thelema means.

Not only is that belief incorrect, it severely hampers any serious attempt to promulgate Thelema. In order to promulgate, one needs something to promulgate in the first place. And if an organization refuses to take a stance on what something is and how it works, then they don’t have anything to promulgate at all, except perhaps for some imagery.

Incidentally, I wouldn't call myself a "critic" of the OTO. As far as I can tell, The OTO does excellent work as far as making Crowley’s material and performances of the rituals (Liber XV, the initiation rituals, even the Ritues of Eleusis) available to interested people. But just making this stuff available isn’t the entirety of promulgation. It’s a nice start, but it can’t be the end.

real spirit of thelema

In AC's original groups, it was the Will that was venerated, not AC.

It seems to me, by nature of the [court] battles, that the trappings of AC, rather than the Will are venerated by said groups.

Absolutely. The "respite" is only as long as one can stop the mind. To begin with, the [dhyana] is entered through the "gaps" between our thoughts. Then, later, it becomes a state that the intermediate [adept] practitioner can enter through a pre-defined process, such as yoga or ritual. It is my opinion that the mind never completely stops - permanently and forever - until the final samadi occurs. It is called Shivatmadarshana, or the "vision" of the destruction of the Atman.

"Vision," as used here in conjunction with samadhi, doesn't mean looking at a painting or going to the 3D movie theatre. It means "You are It."

The guy who gives us the clearest description of "Life after the Atman is Extinguished" is U.G. Krishamurti.

In any case, these are high states, perhaps goals to be attained. For the man or woman of any grade, some form of the mind comes back. If it's just a matter of taking a "break" in dhyana, then the same problems re-emerge. If it is magickally adjusted, then a problem or two might just go away, or at least we might obtain insight into the solution of a problem.

When we solve one problem (usually by adjusting some component in our mind), there'll be more. Endless rows of them, lined up for eternity.

[/align:zi24o1dw]

Those events called "initiations" are perhaps different in that they can cause a radical (root) alteration in mental perception. Then a whole range of "problems" might be solved.

But you are correct. Surely, everyone with just the simplest results from meditation or banishing has already discovered that the mind and the problems come back. I would guess that the Atman himself, the Magus 9=2 at Atomic Chokmah, is still having his cosmic problem come back.

"On a more practical level, shutting off thought is a great help to discovering the True Will. But shutting off thought is a huge hindrance to tasks that require thought, such as, for example, learning what Thelema actually is, what a True Will is, and how one goes about discovering it in the first place."[/center]

Yes. That's why the whole "Path" is represented as being stages, or rungs, or degrees. The permanent stopping of the mind seems to be the end of the line at Ipsissimus. Shivatmadarshana.

[/align:zi24o1dw]

A core-collapse supernova[/align:zi24o1dw]

This is caricature, admittedly your debating tool of choice. Over the years I have from time to time come across people who think that the Tunis Comment forbids discussion of the contents of The Book of the Law, but no one who thinks that the stricture extends to discussing the nature and implicits of Thelema.