http://www.shadowtarot.net is an excellent resource online. Also check out the Blackmoon Website, url escapes me at the moment but I think it is http://www.iac.net/~blackmoon. Offline I'd suggest the Shadow Tarot book, Ma'at Magick, Mishlen Linden's Typhonian Teratomas, Fire & Ice by Stephen Flowers and the works of Austin Osman Spare.

Black Moon Archives are here:
http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/archives/ArchivesFrm.html

My thanks to you both.

I am familiar with all of the aforementioned - the only exception being Typhonian Teratomas, which as of yet I have been unable to acquire.

Any more recommendations...folks?

You SHOULD be able to order the Teratomas from Blackmoon unless they dropped the publishing. As far as other material, the Uncle Setnakt series, but they are expensive and difficult to acquire. The Dragon Rouge is a magical order that focuses on the practice of the Draconian system.

Do What Thou Wilt Shall be The Whole Of The Law.

When it comes to texts relating to Seth-Typhon, there is sadly little in the English language dealing with the Egyptian cult of Seth. Very rare and very expensive (when you find it) is Seth: God of Confusion by Te Velde. While it is fairly dated, it does cover most of the seminal data concerning his worship. Also, there is a book concerning itself with the conflict of Horus and Seth (with that as its title) by Griffiths. Apart from that, there is apparently a plethora of Egyptological data in German.

Concerning the metaphysical, I would also like to get my hands on the Teratomas. Now that I have found Blackmoon's order form, I will be grabbing the "chap-book" edition post-haste.

Data from the so-called Temple of Set (of which I was a member for seven years), while interesting, can be safely ignored when it comes to a practical metaphysical approach to Seth. While their ideas are essentially sound, their perception of Seth is somewhat flawed (IE: de-fanged and de-sexualized). The essence of Setian initiation has been explained with better coherence by Grant, in my opinion, while retaining the more sinister aspects of the original cult.

Again, in my opinion.

On a related subject, someone had made mention of Fire and Ice by Stephen Flowers. I had heard a rumour that the Fraternitas Saturni officially do not endorse the book as a valid picture of thier initiatic practices. I read it during my time in the ToS and found it inspiring. Can anoyone confirm the rumour that the FS does not endorse the book and can anyone recommend any better source in English? I am trying to learn German, but it's not coming as well as I would like.

Love Is the Law, Love Under Will.

Proprætor

Thank you all once again for your advice and assistance.

Propraetor: Seth, God of Confusion has been on my "to find" list for some months now; but alas, I simply do not have sufficient funding behind me to purchase said book at this time. And forgive me if I am being incredibly dense, but where did you discover the Blackmoon order form? I have searched the strangely constructed site this afternoon and found nothing of the sort. (Perhaps you are not speaking of an online order form...)

Uranus: Dragon Rouge is something I shall research this evening. Thank you for the recommendation.

EDIT: The main Blackmoon page now works after numerous explorer errors, so the question of the order page must now be retracted!

It isn't a valid picture of the Fraternitas Saturni anymore, no. The degree structure is unknown, the internal documents are unknown etc. The book reflects the FS as it was at the time of Gregor A. Gregorius death to right around the time the internal documents were published in the 1970s. So if you want to understand the FS as it was originally, it is still a valid resource aside from a few places where Flowers inserts his own ideas without making it clear that they are his ideas. Even so, this is a damn fine magickal book.

When the internal documents were published the order completely remade itself. It actually no longer officially accepted the Law of Thelema for a few years. When you talk about the FS post Grosche though you are talking about 3 different organizations, the Ordo Saturni, the Fraternitas Saturni and the Communitas Saturni. They have merged, unmerged, split, schismed and gotten back together again many times though they seem split again at this time. The Ordo Saturni was founded by the old masters of the FS from Grosche's period and the modern FS is a broken link from the mother Lodge.

I thought i was the only idiot regarding the blackmoon page. Nice posts all around very informative. Ill try again to see if i can decipher the way to order from them.

http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/Products/Products.html

Go there

The Dragon Rouge live here:

http://www.dragonrouge.net /"> http://www.dragonrouge.net/ .

Their wikipedia entry is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Roug e"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Rouge

Their main proselytists 😕 are these guys:

http://megatherion.co m"> http://megatherion.com

Can we really label the Dragon Rouge in the same way has Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian OTO? A magickal order that needs the advertising of an average black metal group doesnt really suggest a magickal group on top of their game. Can it be argued that the Dragon Rouge have evolved the current or contributed new Typhonian material to the world? Just because someone promotes themself has "Typhonian" doesnt mean they actually are.

They are a left hand path order that is inevitably very inspired by Grants works. Don't know if they have direct links to the TOTO. I don't think they expressly identify themselves as a Typhonian order, but they are definately of interest to those interested in the Typhonian current.

With my cultural fascist armband on I should point out that describing Therion as an average black metal group is shooting about as wide of the mark as you can get. If they were an average black metal group they would probably not be playing at the Miskolc International Festival. 👿

Yeah, Therion is anything but average and I think "black metal" is a bit of a mislabel. As far as Dragon Rouge is concerned though, they primarily work with the Qliphoth. They are not a Thelemic order though, they use similar sigils to those in Liber 231 but with minor differences. I don't know the origin of these differences. I think they look legitimate and the articles I've read in English contribute much more than certain other orders I don't want to name but they certainly aren't fluffy and new agey types.

As someone who has a love/hate relationship with Grant's work (never one then the other but both always at the same time! 😀 ) one could argue if it were not for Grant's hard to find and highly priced sources (we do love a good "hard to find" or "so exspensive I will have to sell my first born to pay for it" book) the TOTO perspective may not have been as popular as it is. Even today Starfire (no offense I love the books I have from you!) is hardly what I would call a mainstream or large press. My understanding with Therion is that the lyrics are written (or mostly written) by some bigwig in D.R. Perhaps it is the prose rather than the medium they are delivered through is what is important in this case. Like with Grant (at least to me) you have to get past a lot "WTF" to get to the Gold.

Apologies for sounding unsympathetic. The website for the Dragon Rouge seems to be style over substance. Most of the material seems swiped from Grant and Golden Dawn sources. If they want to call themselves "Left Hand whatever" then fair enough. But to label them "Typhonian" seems....premature.

I don't think you were being unsympathetic. You make some good points and I agree with what you say in the above citation; I don't they can be called Typhonian (at least in the way I understand the term). Just as with my experience with Grant's writings (I was ready to pass them by) D.R. may have more to them than the web site or Therion have to offer. Then again perhaps not.

In regards to FS - the Fire and Ice book actually was/is a big laughing matter in the german 'saturnian scene'. Very inaccurate, fales information used etc.
In regards to DR and TOTO. I must absolutely agree with hawthornrussell. That's a personal opinion though me being a member of neither 🙂

Agape

From Typhonian O.T.O. to pseudo-metal bands in a few bewildering steps...

I really should not continue this specific discussion, but when researching works on the Qlippoth some time ago, I came across a book by one Michael Ford, which purports to offer the reader definite workings, rather than vague insight and theory... Am I to assume that this work of Mr. Black Funeral's is as childish as it first seems (predatory spirituality, vampirism, etc) or might there be something of use amidst the "evil for evil's sake" rhetoric?

If you're interested in books on the Qlippoth I would really recommend the book "Qabalah, Qliphoth and the Goetic Magic" written by Thomas Karlsson (yes, the founder of the magical order Dragon Rouge). The book is not available in English at the moment but a translation has been done. The English edition of the book will be available later this year, probably in summer.

For more information check out the publisher’s homepage at: http://www.ouroborosproduktion.net

Sincerely yours,
J. Elwing

Ahh, looking most forward to it, thanks for the link.

Thank you - this specific text does interest me a great deal.

Again, regarding Mr. Ford -- can anyone offer any insight into his works based on the Qliphoth?

And yet another question if I may be so very annoying: Is the Blackmoon organisation still functional? I emailed the address listed on the site two days ago, but have yet to receive a response. The layout of the site (numerous links that lead to nowhere) leads me to believe that it is no longer a kept woman...

(And may I also express my gratitude to those who messaged me regarding Seth: God of Confusion...? A thousand thanks!)

I agree too with hawthornrussell and tau m., from my point of view dr didnt evolve nothing from the Typhonian current, to say at least...
and the same I think for michael ford... it is like mix good wine with vinegar really...:)

Yes, that's undeniably true. At present there is a limited, niche market for these books, and it is a question of expanding the interest. That will change, but not overnight. Apart from the journal Starfire itself, Liber Lilith was the first non-Grant title that we did. Grant's books will always have pride of place in our publishing programme, but over the next few years we shall be diversifying. There is a momentum that is building.

This is true of a great many authors. Grant's prose can sometimes get a bit dense, but on the other hand there are some passages of great beauty and clarity - the last two paragraphs of the Introduction of Outside the Circles of Time, for instance. The Gold makes that perseverence well worth it, though.

And rightly so. Muller's editions are all falling apart and were it not for the Starfire publications all that information would be lost.

Very true and its been a year or so since I read the work so off I go to the book shelf to read the intro again! Thanks Michael for your comments (and for reminding me I need to order Liber Lilith 😆 )

By your use of double negatives you are saying they evolved something. Aside from that, how are they any different in that regard from the Caliphate where the only thing we've really seen are regurgitation of Crowley either through reprints (which I applaud) or through "Understanding such and such by Crowley" (which can help but c'mon) or beginners books. There has been no evolution of Thelema outside of Crowley and almost anything that isn't Crowley is almost suppressed. The brilliant fire of the 70s and early 80s, the energized and living current has slowly been squelched and that continues as Crowley's materials slowly fall out of print without new editions to replace the old ones. It's all about old, stuffy curatorship and practically building a museum and church rather than cultivating a magickal current and allowing it to thrive.

Contrast that with the Typhonian OTO and the initiates who are or were members. Nema, Falorio, Staley etc.

We haven't really seen what Dragon Rouge is offering. We have a book on runes that we could all read so don't jump to conclusions that brilliant work isn't being done. The Fraternitas Saturni was very secretive and nobody knew what they were up to until the 70s and it turned out to be brilliant material.

Indeed, and for this reason it is far from wise to discredit Dragon Rouge and those involved. Perhaps we can learn a lot from it, perhaps nothing at all; but it is worth investigating, I believe.
I am not sure if many will be interested, but I recently acquired two .pdf files released by Dragon Rouge. One pertains to the Draconian Initiation, and the other is an essay on Qliphothic path-workings. Those curious enough to make the effort can send me a private message and I shall in turn mail the texts to their email address of choice.

Best wishes.

(And is there no one out there who can provide an intelligent opinion on the written work of Michael Ford?)

Try Amazon.com and read some reviews.

Those interested in the works of Dragon Rouge can check out the publication "Dragon's Blood" published by the lodge Magan of Dragon Rouge. There are currently 4 issues of the magazine, the latest about Egyptian Magic. The lodge has also published a book called "Glimpses of the Left Hand Path".

For more information about the lodge and their publications please visit http://magan.superhost.pl/

There is also a book written about the order by Kenneth Granholm. “Embracing the dark : the magic order of Dragon Rouge : its practice in dark magic and meaning making” is an academic book and has also been “accepted” by the order itself. The ISBN for the book is 951-765-251-8 and I highly recommend it if you want to study Dragon Rouge.

Sincerely yours,
J. Elwing

Hello,

If one is interesting in the Dragon Rouge and the Qliphoth initiation, I would recommend that you study the books that Mr J. Elwing has presented. The forthcoming book by Mr T. Karlsson "Qabalah, Qliphoth and the Goetic Magic" is the best book about the Qliphoth that I´ve ever read and very different from the qliphotic works of either Kenneth Grant, Michael Bertiaux or Michael Ford. I think you will know what I mean when it will be released 🙂
The Dragon Rouge is very different from the work of Mr. Grant and the sigils for the Qlipothic tunnels is not in anyway similary to the one found in Liber XXCCCI (that was used by the Nu-Isis Lodge). The Dragon Rouge is a Draconian Order and have no relation to the Thelemic current or the Typhonian OTO.

Kenneth Granholm. “Embracing the dark : the magic order of Dragon Rouge : its practice in dark magic and meaning making” is a academic book that I also could recommend.

Ho Drakon Ho Megas!
J. Jakobsson

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

With due respect to you, I don't understand why "Caliphate" should be "inovative". What is the real job of such kind of occult Orders? In my opinion Ordo Templi Orientis should help in establishing the Kingdom of Crowned & Conquering Child: Giving the Law and changing the magickal principles/postulates is the job of the Third Order, i.e. Astrum Argentum.
I absolutely respect everybody's good inovative and "we explore new territories" magickal work. But I think that some people and some structures should work less exciting work of "training" Thelemites and DOING the Law. Maybe Universe needs both ways?
BTW, I apologize for above off topic discussion.

Love is the law, love under will

HPK

You need to look further into the issue and the attitudes of the A.'.A.'. etc. Aside from that we are comparing the Dragon Rouge to the Caliphate in the sense that someone said the Dragon Rouge hasn't presented anything original or thereabouts and that was simply my rebuttal. With all due respect I'd simply address your post as a reflection of what is wrong with the OTO. The A.'.A.'. is dead, it died with Karl Germer at the earliest, depending on if you accept Motta as an 8=3. There are plenty of people trying to provide life support (and I am speaking as an initiated member of the A.'.A.'.) but without the unbroken link of 8=3 down to 0=0 the order does not function because the 8=3 is necessary for the order to have its necessary inner planes contact. All that is left is a shell of a dream.

It isn't about the changing of the Law, giving the Law etc. It is about the doing of the work. Membership in an order doesn't matter but when an order such as the Caliphate cultivates stagnation and doesn't give the members the materials that allow them to grow into Thelema then the order is not doing its job. The job of the OTO is to promulgate the Law, to spread the Law. This isn't happening right now.

But heck, you want to make it an A.'.A.'. issue, ok, I can do that as well. What has the A.'.A.'., the one promoted by the OTO, done to advance the current, shape the current and develop the initiates? What is the stance of the A.'.A.'. as regards the new translation of the Book of Abramelin or are they sticking with the incredibly flawed Mather's translation? What about the advances in science and psychology that have occured since Crowley's time? When was the last time the student reading list was updated to reflect post Victorian knowledge? When did the Equinox start publishing material besides simple (but yes, necessary) Crowley reprints? There is a lot of problems with that hierarchy and it is reflective of the OTO.

Ok, back to "Typhonian Texts"...

Ok a couple of books. Tankhem by Mogg Morgan and The Bull of Ombos by Morgan as well. Both these books delve deeper into Typhonian/Egyptian related issues. Also History of Fun by Mary Hedger , a satire about Thelema and Typhonian related issues.

it is wise to discredit what i know from my experiences and other people know about it,
and i'm talking about the structure, the way of working and the aim of the socalled heads of that organization, and also the political stand of many of them,
for example in italy the people in there are more or less fascists, with political stands very near to racism
do you need more?

I recently acquired both Liber HVHI and Luciferian witchcraft and was very impressed with both of these books. Mr Ford obviously knows a great deal about his subject matter and is able to express his ideas in a lucid and concise manner and I will definitley be hunting down his other texts, especially "Adamu". His work is certainly of a much higher standard than the majority of the Right Hand Path jibberish I have subjected myself to over the past few years!

Michael Fords books have a very poor reputation. They are poorly written and poorly researched. And they shouldnt be labelled has "Typhonian texts". Anyone who authors a book called "Lucerferian Witchcraft" should be taken with a pinch of salt. His books also rip off ideas from Grant and the Golden Dawn material.

Greetings to you, fellow Scot!

I read a few of Michael Ford's published works many years ago, when he was releasing photocopied booklets via, I believe, his "Order of Phosphorous." I was not at all impressed at the time - as you say, they seemed to be "poorly written." Furthermore, I find his notion of the "Adversary" disagreeable at best... But, all that being said, he may well have come a long way since my last encounter with him (and his work), and his writings on the Qliphoth do arouse my curiosity.

I did take the time to read the reviews on Amazon.com, as advised earlier, but even the "positive" comments were off-putting (it appears that Mr. Ford's following consists entirely of teenage metal-heads and very confused, self-labelled "Satanists").

And I agree, sir, in that we can hardly continue with the Typhonian label, but this thread went off-topic quite some time ago...!

My thanks again to all who have offered their views and recommendations. It has been a pleasure, thus far.

No. Like I said, those two books are very well written and researched. I did however, read some of his older stuff several years ago ( available at the time in downloadable pdf format ) which were rather dire and I wasnt expecting much from these works on the strength of this earlier material. Also, there is no intelligent reason why a book called "Luciferian Witchcraft" should be taken with a pinch of salt!

Also, the reviews on Amazon may well have been written by a host of "teenage metal heads and self styled Satanists" but what does that prove? He is likely to attract such people as he is already known in such circles by virtue of his musical endeavours with Black Funeral ( which ive never heard so cant offer any opinion ). Personally, I have no interest in who or what an authors "following" is, as I am able to form my own view based on wether the actual text is any good or not. Lets face it, Crowley's own following hardly constitutes any form of intellectual elite.

I agree. The only point I was making (or attempting to make) was that, after reading reviews full of praise, I was left feeling even more sceptical than before.
Anyway, I do not wish to involve myself in a "the people versus Michael Ford" debate, and I am certainly not mocking those who respect his works. All I am attempting to do is discern whether or not it is worth my time and effort to purchase and then study his most recent publications. I think, in the interests of non-confrontation, this is the last I shall say on this matter.

And your comment about Crowley's following amused me... Thanks!

EDIT: And for what it is worth, some years ago I was rather fond of Black Funeral, and especially the Darkness Enshroud full length. Valefor's "Death Magick" was enjoyable, too, all those years ago...

Yes, I can certainly recommend the books. He seems to have included a great deal of information in there and its definitely one to study (rather than read once then throw away ). There are a lot of dissapointing tomes of late from the left hand path, but these books are excellent in my view. Not just good for Qliphothic studies, but also 'demonology' as well. I dont know if its just amazon, but I always feel a little put off when i read those reviews personally.

Are you talking of the FS or Dragon Rouge? And to have disdain for fascism in a Thelemic forum is bit ironic considering, when you analyze Thelema, it is a form of benign fascism. Am I saying fascism is cool and right? Good god no, but totalitarianism is definitely a part of Thelemic culture. Few and Secret, many and known and all that rot.

What nonsense!

It all depends on the definition of fascism that you elect to compare Thelema against. Encarta, for example, defines fascism as follows:

Modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights...

That's not remotely like the Thelema I've studied for thirty years and it's not the subject of this Topic, either.

Nevermind, wouldn't want to step on any toes...

Hi All

I am a bit suprised that the following books havent been mentioned yet.

1) Gareth Hewitson-May "Dark Doorway of the Beast" New World Publishing, 1991

The book Kenneth Grant famously compares to drinking a glass of cold lager on a hot summers day. DDotB looks at how the mind builds interconnections and associates these with psychology, the Typhonian tradition, Great Cthultu etc. not to mention classical writings, Aleister Crowley etc. I do like this book and think that its worth buying for one of the introductory passages alone

"The utter devastation that has swept through the espoteric fraternities for the past two thosuand years, has unfortunatly completely disolved the coherence of attitude that is necessary to the understanding of the system. It is therefore of monumental importance that all attempts to recover such complete doctrines should be abandoned sa futire. The very fact that language, understanding, communication, terminology, relevantce of material are now so very different, that it is plainly obvious that the "return" of any such recovered doctrines" in todays culture would only serve to confuse, rather than illuminate"

2) The Butterflies of Thantos by David Chitty

This book of qabalah, poetry and art is very interesting and ampong other things looks at the possible dissoloution of society in a very Lovecraftian manner again taking IMO the Typhonian view that we need to take a cosmic perspective to things. In many ways I feel that the artwork is reminiscent of the artwork in Azoetia by Andrew chumbley, but for me at least it is deeper and more profound.

My copy is intrigingly inscribed

"For Tony. In memory of ''The night of the avocado and the lost lobsters of the midnight sun' With love The Chitt."

Sounds like it was a great party. I would love to know more about this book and the author but it really is a great read

3) Monstous Cults: A study of the primordial Gnosis by Steven Sennit

This book covers various primordial cults discussing the myriad manner in which our minds have evolved and contacted the ancient aspect if divinity leading to "Elder Goddess" worship, evolution, Kali and of course the Necronomicon Gnosis.

Cheers

Paolo

Some of this thread relates to a topic I was considering starting, based on KG's bibliography.

There is the Sword of Horus' "phew, what a looney!" school of criticism regarding Grant, which, as far as I am concerned, misses the point of Grant's writings completely. Although I know it's not worth arguing with such close minded fellows, I do think it would be interesting to explore Grant's bibliographies in order to show that his works do have their place in context of a larger occult or Theosphical tradition (not to mention the tradition of the artist-as-sorceror). This shows that Grant's work is not solely the product of his own imagination, but is his synthesis of pre-existing streams of thought (e.g. Massey's work) along with his own idiosyncratic obsessions and intuitions (the idea of a perichoresis between Crowley, Stansfeld Jones and Lovecraft, for example).

Of course, there is Massey's work, obviously a vast influence, especially as far as the prehistoric Typhonian cultus is concerned. Massey's ideas on etymology are also seem to have a parallel in Grant's occasional use of cross-linguistic gematria. Tangentally, I seem to recall Massey making some seemingly far-fetched, but none-the-less very imaginative and stimlating parallels between Welsh and Egyptian in one of his works! Extremely relevant to my personal obsession with intuiting the hidden culture of the British Isles.

I noticed that Grant also cites William Stirling's The Canon in his bibliography. This is a work I own, but have only ever dipped into (despite starting a couple of times). The writing-style is very Grantian - contstant numerations, an impression of sensory overload, intuitive leaps, cross-lingual gemetrias, and so-forth. I hope to have ttime and he patience to read the whole thing at some pont.

Similarly, Godfrey Higgins' Anacalypsis gets a mention, a work I came across on my own stream of Typhonian research (contact if interested) and only later realised had been referenced by Grant.

We also have Blavatsky's work, but I'm more interested in the frequently ignored works in Grant's bibliography. What other unacknowledged gems of (relatively) modern esoteric thought, aside from Set: God of Confusion have people run across in Grant's bilbiographies?

Another aside - I don't think I've ever seen any references to Rudolf Steiner in Grant's work, but I recently met a Steinerian art therapist who had been working at a Anthroposophical community in the US. She lent me numerous works of his which mention Typhon and Set at some length, along with other Theosophically tinged theories regarding the primal earth that could have valid Typhonian interpretations.

I don't know whether it can be classed as modern esoteric thought, but it was Grant's references to Wei Wu Wei that made me search out the works of that (pseudononymous) author, and it had a radical effect upon me. Advaita is a strong undercurrent in Grant's work and the influence was there in his early days, as the essays collected in At the Feet of the Guru make clear.

"Another aside - I don't think I've ever seen any references to Rudolf Steiner in Grant's work, but I recently met a Steinerian art therapist who had been working at a Anthroposophical community in the US. She lent me numerous works of his which mention Typhon and Set at some length, along with other Theosophically tinged theories regarding the primal earth that could have valid Typhonian interpretations."

You'll find that a large portion of Steiner's ideas on gulfs of pre-history and the evolution of man were taken from Blavatsky's SD; specifically chapter II, or Anthropogenesis section. What is also interesting is that Lovecraft, CA Smith & co found this section hugely inspiring for the construction of their Mythos fiction, as their diaries and correspondences from the period state. Whether Grant was thrown onto the scent via this later fictional cloud (The Book of Dzyan often crops up) or from HPB's work directly is open to conjecture. Although I do have material which does convincingly suggest the latter. However, it would definitely have been from HPB's material that Grant would have synthesised things, over Steiner's.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I downloaded this book from the web. Not leaving url here because I
don't kno is this legally on the net, I suppose it is. On this site there are a lot of other academic papers in English and Finish and it is very possible that this book can be downloaded as a pdf legaly as I said above. I have no time to read this now, but it seems like interesting and serious work about the subject.

Love is the law, love under will

B.

Just a quick reminder of the function of the Typhonian threads here (from the main Forum page):

For the discussion of matters Typhonian. Discussions should be restricted to matters of Thelemic interest.

LAShTAL.COM is not intended for the discussion of the work of Kenneth Grant and other writers beyond their impact on Thelema.

Locked.