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Would Crowley have been targeted by the #MeToo movement  

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dom
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30/05/2020 1:17 pm  

Now I know that the some knee-jerk  activists (?) can demonize men simply for being men but any sensible person can distinguish such dumb distortions from reality. 

Students tend to put spiritual teachers on a pedestal.  Do you think those involved in the Zen-scene are cool and can do no wrong? 

Check this out of you do, it's an article about women accusing Zen Masters of abusing teacher-student trust;

 

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/death-eido-roshi-metoo/

 

If any teacher in any setting 'hits on' (as the Americans say) a student then it is an abuse of student-teacher trust.   He is obviously a dysfunctional weirdo with OLd Aeon ideas about sex and  needs to get out more away from the insular-bubble of his creepy ashram scene.   

Is this relevant to Thelema? Totally, I like to think that Thelema and Legis encourage the vulnerable (in such situations) to be 'girt with a sword' and I also like to think that Thelema and Legis  encourage 'spiritual' 'Masters' to come off their high-horse and be normal functioning men, you can probably figure out which passages of Legis deal with that.    

However, Crowley if around today, would he have been targeted by the #MeToo movement?

 

 

This topic was modified 5 months ago by dom

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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30/05/2020 1:42 pm  

The Caliphate has had a considerable "Me Too" problem in recent years.

I think one difference between Thelema, and the many other spiritual disciplines within which there has been so much "MeToo"-ism, is that most of the others affirm chastity as valuable. So there is an element of hypocrisy, as well as exploitation of the teacher/student power dynamic, when teachers get sexual with students.

But the open sexuality of Thelema, and the sexual elements in rituals (notably the Gnostic Mass, which is probably how most folks first encounter the OTO), may in fact foster an environment that facilitates sexual exploitation of students in Thelemic groups. Having never been any more than a very fringe onlooker in any such group, i can't say. I've mentioned that i used to see Breeze and Wasserman macking on young girls from behind the counter at Magickal Childe in the '80s, so i would not be surprised if an organization they led were permeated by misogyny.


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dom
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30/05/2020 5:51 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

. I've mentioned that i used to see Breeze and Wasserman macking on young girls from behind the counter at Magickal Childe in the '80s, so i would not be surprised if an organization they led were permeated by misogyny.

I don't recall you naming them.  Return of The Mack eh?  Jesus.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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30/05/2020 6:29 pm  

I may have sometimes just mentioned "sleazy hippie junkies" or something; see cover of Wasserman's book. When i read In the Center of the Fire, and looked closely at the cover, i was like "OMFG, those guys!" I knew their names from their later OTO leadership gigs, but hadn't previously realized i had been around them often before they were stars.

By "macking on" i don't mean literally trying to turn girls out as working girls, but metaphorically so, trying to convince teenage wannabe Wiccan girls to be Babalon For A Day. If you catch my drift. A common NYC synonym for what you referred to above as "hitting on"- what do Brits call it?


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dom
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30/05/2020 9:09 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I may have sometimes just mentioned "sleazy hippie junkies" or something; see cover of Wasserman's book. When i read In the Center of the Fire, and looked closely at the cover, i was like "OMFG, those guys!" I knew their names from their later OTO leadership gigs, but hadn't previously realized i had been around them often before they were stars.

By "macking on" i don't mean literally trying to turn girls out as working girls, but metaphorically so, trying to convince teenage wannabe Wiccan girls to be Babalon For A Day. If you catch my drift. A common NYC synonym for what you referred to above as "hitting on"- what do Brits call it?

No, I know what "the mack" is (although not how and where it was derived from) hence that's why I quoted the classic Mark Morrison song.

 

Anyway, your path actually crossed with those of the the great high initiates....(irony alert) I'm so jealous. 

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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30/05/2020 9:24 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Students tend to put spiritual teachers on a pedestal.

This is exemplified in Guru Yoga, which is essentially the core structure of the 6th ray of Devotion and Love. Included in this stream is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (although Islam has a strong 1st ray included, what with all their military history and mindset). Guru Yoga is a valid pathway, in the intermediate stages.

You are correct is your assumption when your premise or axiom is applied to the Outer Order, or to humanity in general. I think if you look around here in the forum halls, you will find a few who are Crowley hero-worshipers. Most are advanced enough to see the distinction between Frater Perdurabo and the Demon Crowley, and some might be struggling with the concept of this difference between a human channel/vehicle and an attained Master, as they attempt to justify or apply this dichotomy to their own perception of reality, which surely is different between individual units, and when resolved allows a person or a group to erect their own pedestal. If anyone can maintain that state, or enter it more or less at will, then others will sense this and be attracted, which is the core of Guru Yoga.

But, yeah, when someone gets elevated in status because they write books, or get elected because they have a likeable persona, that would probably be like your "pedestal" allegory.

Posted by: @dom

Do you think those involved in the Zen-scene are cool and can do no wrong? 

Cool? No way. They make you sit in unnatural positions. They don't have parties. Medical marijuana is probably frowned upon.

Do no wrong? Really now, are you phishing to find out who is naive and who knows that anyone can make a bad move at any time they are not operating in wu-wei?

Posted by: @dom

Zen Masters of abusing teacher-student trust

Yeah, they have a similar scene in that little V City next to Rome. They are the true Mouse that Roared. I think it's a common denominator, inherent in all systems that rely on trust. The lower nature of gurus, doctors, priests, shrinks, police, and elected officials, even hereditary heirs, is NOT under control at any level of our global civilization.

Posted by: @dom

He is obviously a dysfunctional weirdo with OLd Aeon ideas

It also obviously transcends the concept of aeons. If one has failed to control the lower self, in any aeon, and they arrive at a position of trust, and they turn out to be hypocritical, then they are the Fakirs about whom The One True Order is trying to warn us.

 

 

 

 

 


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ignant666
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30/05/2020 9:43 pm  

Ah, see, this is a generational, and/or UK/US, thing.

When you said "Return Of The Mack", i, who never heard of this UK singer or his big hit record before, assumed you were making the joke he was making with his song title, combining the title of the classic 1973 blaxploitaton film, The Mack, with the title of 1958 horror movie The Return Of Dracula, and other "Return of..." horror movie titles.

The Mack has a soundtrack by R & B artist Willie Hutch that is often sampled by the hippety-hop artists. Some here may find his 1974 album, and song, The Mark Of The Beast of interest, though it takes a very gospel/Bible-y approach to such things.


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ignant666
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30/05/2020 10:07 pm  

Incidentally, "mack" as slang for "pimp" is sufficiently old that AC must certainly have known it, as a frequent patron of sex workers.

Attested "since c. 1870" says Partridge's A Dictionary of the Underworld: British & American : Being the Vocabularies of Crooks, Criminals, Racketeers, Beggars and Tramps, Convicts, the Commercial Underworld, the Drug Traffic, the White Slave Traffic, Spivs (New York, 1950). One of my most cherished books and a title one just can't resist quoting in full. Sitting there on the shelf in between Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis and The Female Offender by Caesare Lombroso, speaking of nut literature i own.


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djedi
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30/05/2020 10:23 pm  

Would it have made a difference? Isn't that the image he cultivated for the public, or aren't we talking about the wickedest man in the world?

The sociable thing is to say, "Oh, how misunderstood ol' Al was, he was really a very nice fellow." But he wasn't, and you can't have it both ways. The fact is, when you hit the big time in AC's vocation, good and evil cease functioning as concepts or forces. Two works of that celebrated Thelemic saint, Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil and The Genealogy of Morality, can help one comprehend this.

As for the little five-foot-tall zen people, wouldn't they all simply be tools of the universe, puppets of fate abusing and being abused with only imagined agency, if any agency at all? Zen at War?

Actus me invito factus non est meus actus? That's slave morality. Real sick, black school shit.

Here's a great, western, white (school) mind with some guidance on the issue, Hunter S. Thompson:

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.


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ignant666
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30/05/2020 11:13 pm  

What i find bizarre about the whole MeToo business (well, besides, learning about Weinstein's, um, unusual genitals) is that it is apparently common for powerful men to whip out their johnsons and begin VIII-degreeing themselves in front of attractive young women.

I would have said, had anyone asked, that i was a man of unusually broad exposure to the varieties of human sexual desire and activity- my PhD dissertation includes discussion of "Nazi, 'White Power', and Satanist imagery as fetish stimuli" among gay methamphetamine-using "chem-sex" S & M "pigs", for example. i got an interesting memo from the IT department at the research institute where i worked at the time, after three days of watching gay S & M methamphetamine-injection porn on the computer in my office. I dated call-girls, peep-show gals, and dominatrices (they have needs in their spare time just like other girls, and tend to be good fun), and heard about their clients (get me drunk some time, and ask me about why the surgeon could only visit the dungeon twice a year, or what the Burger King spit guy dug, or the famous golfer into bath-tub fart bubbles).

But this bizarre ritual, apparently common among among powerful men, was a new one on me.


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dom
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31/05/2020 11:17 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

Ah, see, this is a generational, and/or UK/US, thing.

 

No it was also a big U.S. hit (I didn't know the guy was English) and has become a classic loved track in the American black community, ask any of your black friends. 

Posted by: @djedi

Would it have made a difference? Isn't that the image he cultivated for the public, or aren't we talking about the wickedest man in the world?

The sociable thing is to say, "Oh, how misunderstood ol' Al was, he was really a very nice fellow." But he wasn't, and you can't have it both ways. The fact is, when you hit the big time in AC's vocation, good and evil cease functioning as concepts or forces. Two works of that celebrated Thelemic saint, Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil and The Genealogy of Morality, can help one comprehend this.

 

Yes standard Victorian Conservative (Republican party) Darwinian politics as summed up by FMN there even though the former deny Darwin.  Yes AC let it be known in his writings what he thought about minorities i.e he had a low opinion of them/us except when he was in his Prophet of the Aeon mode.  

As for the little five-foot-tall zen people, wouldn't they all simply be tools of the universe, puppets of fate abusing and being abused with only imagined agency, if any agency at all? Zen at War?

As I said in the OP many of us see Zen as the cool movement to emerge from the Age of the Father Gods  (due to various beatnik and hippy fan-boys) but hey if those allegations are true then there goes my fixed-idea about Zendos.   I mean much like the Christian clergy when a scandal breaks out  it'll be hard for the lower 'ranks'  (lay monks)  to accept these facts.  If you were to discuss this with your average Zen practitioner they would probably initially dismiss it as fake.

 

Here is the said Zen Master in person describing the benefits of meditation to naive fan;

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHPgaVQoCJ4

@shiva

Yeah, they have a similar scene in that little V City next to Rome. They are the true Mouse that Roared. I think it's a common denominator, inherent in all systems that rely on trust. The lower nature of gurus, doctors, priests, shrinks, police, and elected officials, even hereditary heirs, is NOT under control at any level of our global civilization

 

Yeah good point. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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31/05/2020 3:32 pm  

As to the "Mack" song: generational then, i know very little about any pop from the last couple decades.

As to macking Masters, Zen and otherwise: Power corrupts, they say, and spiritual power has a unique power to corrupt. The whole guru/chela, master/disciple relationship can get very sticky. I have been fortunate, or perhaps very selective, in my mentors over the years (academic ones, mostly), and of course am a large scary-looking man, with a reputation for being crazy and violent, so not probably a good victim. But i have certainly seen and heard things in the groves of academia (both real exploitation, and false accusations ruining lives); never back when in the law biz though.

I have always found any goo-roos i met/heard about wanting. i have had the Integral Yoga Institute, the Hare Krishnas, the Raj Neeshis, and many born-agains try to recruit/convert me, and been friends with rogue/disaffected members of all those groups, as well as a deprogrammed ex-Moonie, an ex-Mormon elder, and many Black Hebrew Israelites, Five Percenters, Rastafarians, Satanists, Santeros, Palo practitioners, Wiccans, other neo-pagans, saucer nuts, and other freaks, nuts, and crazy people, whom i have always sought out, or who have always sought me out. I tried to learn from them all, but kept my own counsel, and walked my own walk.


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Shiva
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31/05/2020 5:30 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Ah, see, this is a generational, and/or UK/US, thing.

A gap in consciousness. A veil.

Posted by: @djedi

The sociable thing is to say, "Oh, how misunderstood ol' Al was

This is not only "sociable," but true.

Posted by: @djedi

... he was really a very nice fellow.

I have yet to meet anyone who has assumed this stance.

 


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elitemachinery
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03/06/2020 1:23 am  
Posted by: @dom

However, Crowley if around today, would he have been targeted by the #MeToo movement?

Crowley was probably too honest about who he was to be a victim of the gotcha generation. Has anyone noticed that rock stars seem to have been given a pass on the #metoo lynchings? One need look no further than the lyrics of songs like "Stray Cat Blues" by the Stones for evidence that something did happen. But perhaps the movement is really about exposing hypocrisy?

Posted by: @ignant666

What i find bizarre about the whole MeToo business (well, besides, learning about Weinstein's, um, unusual genitals) is that it is apparently common for powerful men to whip out their johnsons and begin VIII-degreeing themselves in front of attractive young women.

There is a lot of alcohol and drug use in Hollywood. What i find suspect about the stories of #metoo is not one story mentioned alcohol or cocaine or any other drug. Pulling your prick out to wank while in the company of other clothed individuals sounds like something one might do after a few drinks while the other people in the room are snorting the cocaine you provided them. It's a power move. Snort my coke, suck my dick. Yet not one confession in this regard. History rewritten. No doubt reprehensible behavior on all sides.

Posted by: @ignant666

I tried to learn from them all, but kept my own counsel, and walked my own walk.

The best way to be. This is who i am these days I suppose. No gurus. No aspirations in this regard. No organizations (they all turn to shit eventually.)

But it wasn't always this way.

My guru/master/teacher Edwin was publicly "celibate" yet was accused of many sexual improprieties over the years. He had a nasty habit of giving young men acid and fucking with their heads in one way or another. Like many gay men (he finally came out at the end of his life) he liked straight guys. Lots of drama over the years and many still have bad feelings toward him. On the other hand he had a lot of great qualities.

As fate would have it I became a willing victim to this manipulation. Initially rebuffing any ideas in this direction it took a lot of meditation and LSD and legal ecstasy to finally break me. I then ran off to Iceland and New York before willingly returning to Los Angeles in 1985 to become his apprentice and accept my fate.

No victim here. But I signed up for quite a ride. And by the end of it all I stopped being a closet heterosexual and was fucking as many strippers and whores as possible, pulling my prick out while the ladies did my coke, and I never have heard any complaints to this day.

The guru path is full of pitfalls. Better to be honest. Have a wife or a lover or whatever you are into. Didn't Ram Dass also have some drama in this regard. It's always the sex stuff that destroys reputations.

 

 


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christibrany
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04/06/2020 1:38 am  
Posted by: @djedi
Posted by: @djedi

... he was really a very nice fellow.

I have yet to meet anyone who has assumed this stance.

 

Israel Regardie when asked if Crowley was kind said 'yes...I suppose he was'  with a bemused surprised look on his face. 


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christibrany
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04/06/2020 1:42 am  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

The guru path is full of pitfalls. Better to be honest. Have a wife or a lover or whatever you are into. Didn't Ram Dass also have some drama in this regard. It's always the sex stuff that destroys reputations.

The oh so holy Shambhala Center / Shambhala Institute has been facing charges of sexual improprieties by its Buddhist monks for years and years.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyregion/shambhala-sexual-misconduct.html

https://www.dailycamera.com/2019/07/08/boulder-shambhala-sexual-abuse/

Even the untouchable Zendos 


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elitemachinery
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04/06/2020 5:57 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

The oh so holy Shambhala Center / Shambhala Institute has been facing charges of sexual improprieties by its Buddhist monks for years and years.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyregion/shambhala-sexual-misconduct.html

https://www.dailycamera.com/2019/07/08/boulder-shambhala-sexual-abuse/

Even the untouchable Zendos 

The problem is an abuse of power or position.

When you run a billion dollar corporation or a church or spiritual center you are held to a higher standard of conduct. You are also bound by many govt state and local laws.

When you combine misconduct with our general fear and fascination with anything sexual and our gotcha/gossip/lawsuit culture there will be trouble.

#metoo exposed some real predators like Weinstein and Spacey. The Catholic church is much worse.

The opposite extreme of openly running a sex/love cult has many pitfalls also (Wild Wild Country.) With all these problems we may eventually have spiritual leaders considering celibacy as opposed to just pretending.

Did Crowley consider himself a guru? I tend to think not.

I still seek out mentors/teachers but generally avoid gurus.

One guru that I do like though is Maharishi. Ram Dass seems to have passed his tests. He is another Guru that I like. Perhaps the best gurus are the dead ones.

 


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Shiva
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04/06/2020 5:59 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

Shambhala Institute has been facing charges of sexual improprieties by its Buddhist monks ...

This is possibly due to mis-spelling Shamballa. It is usually sex, but child abuse and rampant drug use are also included in the Establishment's yama/niyama configuration.

Back in '73, when I drove up the coast to the "Guru's" home on the hillside in Pacific Pallisades for our regular meetings, I would pass a large beach house with many cars in attendance. This was the residence/ashram of Babaji, the "13-year old perfect master," who was widely advertized and marketed. He preached celibacy, vegetarianism, and abstention from alcohol and drugs. You know, the pure, natural approach to liberation.

Then the scandal came. His followers caught him eating steak, smoking pot, drinking alcohol, and he fiddled around with the girls. He became so revealed that they took him back to India. Years later, I saw he was still running the scam. Why, just now I found a reference with his pic and something about the U.K. Look, see for yourself. You Brits keep on the lookout for him. He eats steak ...

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5bb25d88aadd3432bd097886/t/5bb6430e4785d35a56b51718/1538671383484/babaji_unfathomable.pdf

It doesn't matter what you preach, as long as you do it, or don't, yourself. Then the #myselfalsos cannot cry "hipocrisy!" Then, if like AC, you advocate sex, drugs, tobacco, pot, coke, peyote, and alc, how can anyone whine? Oh, I know, they can call him hypocrite like this ...

#I-also; "He refused to give me drugs, and he wouldn't have sex with me."

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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06/06/2020 6:30 pm  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

Did Crowley consider himself a guru? I tend to think not.

However what then do you think one should make of his own remark, that "I am a Hell of a Holy Guru"?

Posted by: @elitemachinery

I still seek out mentors/teachers but generally avoid gurus.

However what then would be the semantic distinction you're making between them... it's not quite clear? 

Posted by: @christibrany

Israel Regardie when asked if Crowley was kind said 'yes...I suppose he was'  with a bemused surprised look on his face. 

Gerald Suster told me, on several occasions, the story that he'd asked him this.  He also put it in his biography of Regardie "The Magical Apprentice" (which he also kindly dedicated to me), that I take to be your source.  He would go on to explain that the reason he seemed 'bemused/surprised' was as if he'd never been asked that question before; but more than that, that he seemed as if that particular thought had never struck him before either, but now that it had, had agreed with its sentiment quite enthusiastically.

Yours further informatively

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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06/06/2020 7:04 pm  
Posted by: @Jamiej
Posted by: @elitemachinery

Did Crowley consider himself a guru? I tend to think not.

However what then do you think one should make of his own remark, that "I am a Hell of a Holy Guru"?

These references are to the common use of the Guru word, which mainly means "teacher." Let's look at the word Gu-Ru itself, which means "light and dark." In such a case, and under such original and deep-rooted meaning, I would say AC was definitely a Guru ... and as Jamie pointed out, he did state that he was one, in mixed terms.

He also said, "I may be a black magician, but I'm a damn good one!"

I wonder why he refers to blasphemy-mouth when he refers to his high status?

Posted by: @elitemachinery
Posted by: @elitemachinery

I still seek out mentors/teachers but generally avoid gurus.

However what then would be the semantic distinction you're making between them... it's not quite clear?

Yes, there is a definite semanticly blurred line of demarcation. I think elite is saying that he'll take hints and suggestions from an experienced person, but he avoids taking Oaths of obedience and/or poverty, and certainly not chastity.

 


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elitemachinery
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07/06/2020 6:41 am  
Posted by: @christibrany
 
https://www.dailycamera.com/2019/07/08/boulder-shambhala-sexual-abuse/

Even the untouchable Zendos 

From the link above:

That suppression came in the form of worshipful vows students said they were told to maintain to the very teachers they alleged abused them; in explicit and implicit commands not to report abuse; and through a cultish reverence that served to protect Shambhala’s king-like leaders, according to interviews and third-party reviews commissioned by Shambhala itself.

“The problem is that we thought we had a way of doing things that was better, more compassionate, more grounded than the conventional way,” said Craig Morman, a former Rusung, or safety commander, at the Shambhala Mountain Center. “It was arrogant and reckless.”

This is the type of thinking that dooms cultish spiritual offshoots. They naturally develop a set of rules that apply to their organization, yet they are still legally bound by the local laws in their city/state/country. Eventually someone gets upset and complains or sues and you have problems.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

My guru/master/teacher Edwin was publicly "celibate" yet was accused of many sexual improprieties over the years.

I have to be careful speaking in generalities. I was with D.O.M.E. for 17 years. "Many" is a big word. More accurately I heard about some incidents that happened long before I arrived. And there was some drama while I was there at one point.

All organizations have these mostly private scandals happen at some point and many don't survive them. Edwin was essentially a psychotherapist. He sat in a chair at his desk while his clients meditated with their Inner Guides. His services weren't cheap and he worked with thousands of people and a lot of well known people for example Faye Dunaway for years and all the Coppolas. He was a frequent guest at the Coppola estate and knew Francis and Ellie since UCLA in the mid-60s. But he did cross the line a few times giving people LSD or pushing a sexual context on clients he was friendly with, and a few people were not too happy about it.

I think my being Edwin's willing guinea pig probably saved him a lot of grief and scandals over the years. But people running spiritual organizations often fall into a mentality that the rules don't apply to me/us.

No doubt Crowley fell into this trap at Cefalu and suffered the consequences.

People get in trouble when they force a context on people that they didn't sign up for. Flirting with girls at a bookstore is harmless. Recruiting them into a cult and pimping them out to your friends would be a big no no.

Weinstein was hiring personal assistants and actresses and using them as his personal harem. He broke all sorts of laws repeatedly. AND he has a lot of money so he became a target. I knew a guy who was Weinstein's limo driver for years and he told stories of all the prostitutes he would charter in and out of his hotel day and night. He told me this is 2002 and I was surprised. I thought he was a married indie film guy.

Had Weinstein stuck with professional sex workers instead of trying to turn personal assistants and models and actresses into sex slaves he may not be in jail today.

In other words the saying "I didn't sign up for this shit!" may apply.

You can give someone acid and tell them they're gay but you're going to get some push back when they recover. It's a form of psychological rape.

Similarly an actress has a reasonable assumption that she is applying for work in a movie as opposed to being a personal sex masseuse in a hotel bathtub.

If you hang out with sex workers you can pull out your prick without consequence (providing you pull out your wallet first) in fact you could go so far as to say it is expected behavior.

"Me too" exposed people who were forcing themselves on others and assigning people roles they didn't sign up for. Cosby drugging women, Spacey sexually assaulting young men, etc. That is behavior that almost always backfires as you are interfering with another persons free will or True Will.

I don't remember all the details but didn't a young man die at Cefalu? Crowley got a lot of bad press and got kicked out of the country? Well, it looks like he did suffer for his misbehavior. But he was really off his nut in Cefalu. For the most part he sought out professionals or developed personal relationships with his Scarlet Women or gay lovers.

Posted by: @elitemachinery
Posted by: @elitemachinery

I still seek out mentors/teachers but generally avoid gurus.

However what then would be the semantic distinction you're making between them... it's not quite clear? 

I was never told this but eventually common sense dictated to me that if you want to learn something, anything, you best seek out others that are doing it well and having success.

Whether you are learning guitar or blogging or how to perform sex on camera or be a successful film actor you seek out those that are doing it. I wouldn't call any of these types of teachers gurus in any sense of the word. I would call them mentors or teachers though.

Posted by: @shiva

I think elite is saying that he'll take hints and suggestions from an experienced person, but he avoids taking Oaths of obedience and/or poverty, and certainly not chastity.

Exactly. Invariably the guru makes your rules for you and your True Will and free will suffer.

To me Maharishi is a true guru. But he was generous and as far as I know not enslaving people with vows. Ram Dass is a somewhat flawed but sincere guru that fell into the role through his strange path. Edwin didn't consider himself a guru but he was one. He like Ram Dass fell into the path accidentally (through being an astrologer initially.)

I consider Shiva a teacher and mentor. Not a guru. As I consider many of Lashtal members teachers/mentors. But Shiva does fall into the category of Wise Man or Holy Man to a degree. But he doesn't claim to be infallible or perfect (or celibate) so he's okay. (sorry Shiva!)

I would say Crowley was a flawed guru. But more of a guru in his afterlife than he was while living.

Best to make your vows to yourself and your path and not confuse your True Will with another person.

And don't force behaviors on people that they didn't sign up for.

 

 


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Shiva
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07/06/2020 8:01 am  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

All organizations have these mostly private scandals happen at some point and many don't survive them.

Now we come to the universal core principle: Shit happens.

Sorry to be potty-mouthed, but that short phrase sums it all up. All people and all orgs are going to have something interesting happen to them ... at some point ... or more often.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

giving people LSD or pushing a sexual context

Oh? Well, that's grounds for controversy in a clean, God-fearing, Christian culture.

I mean, I have visions of the peasants storming Dracula's castle with burning pitchforks.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

But people running spiritual organizations often fall into a mentality that the rules don't apply to me/us.

There's a medical/psych reason for this. If the guy or gal in charge is a 6=5 or higher, or its equivalent in some non-A.'.A.'. stream, and they really are there in the Rajas (guna) phase of Adeptship, operating out of their own Citadel of Geburah ... then they're working on or with the 6th, Electric, neurocircuit. One primary distinction of the 6th circuit is Amorality.

They have no respect for the yama/niyama rules of the world around them.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

No doubt Crowley fell into this trap at Cefalu and suffered the consequences.

Crowley was way beyond mere Amorality. At Cefalu, he advocated some form of unrestricted (but probably governed by him) free will love. I believe he did this long before Cefalu, and well after his tour in Sicily, so I would ask how he suffered from a "trap" at Cefalu?

Posted by: @elitemachinery

People get in trouble when they force a context on people that they didn't sign up for.

Of course this is true. Both "force" and "(different) context" are concepts worthy of consideration, as neither usually goes over very well under any circumstances.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

I was never told this but eventually common sense dictated to me that if you want to learn something, anything, you best seek out others that are doing it well and having success.

"Association with Initiates tends to produce more Initiates."  - me (c. 1965).

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Invariably the guru makes your rules for you and your True Will and free will suffer.

I don't think it is "invariable." A true guru will guide the beginner through the outer order, acting as his/her guide/HGA, until such time as the student can be "graduated." The problem is, a true guru has to be a Master of the Temple, or "invariably" becomes the correct word. Under proper guidance, the true will does not suffer, but yes, the free will is surrendered. People surrender their free will every day by entering a degree program or a college classroom. We can only pray that they have a true guru. Which, guess what, they usually don't.

If you were to change "invariably" to "usually" or "almost always," I'd go happily along with your principle.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

I consider Shiva a teacher and mentor. Not a guru.

Good. I have never claimed a Guru title, not even implied it. It is a 6th ray (devotion) title and mode of operation. I don't do 6th ray stuff very well.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

But he doesn't claim to be infallible or perfect (or celibate) so he's okay. (sorry Shiva!)

Sorry for what? I took not one dram of insolence from any word you wrote in a rather true assessment of how things work. I guess we'll have to move you on to the next pile-on.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

I would say Crowley was a flawed guru. But more of a guru in his afterlife than he was while living.

True enough. No, he was not a Sat Guru (True Guru) in the Bhakti Yoga tradition. But then, he didn't do a lot of 6th ray stuff either. But his dark heavy makeup when photo-caught in a robe and turban were better than the Sunday Comics.

 


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elitemachinery
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07/06/2020 8:37 am  
Posted by: @shiva

Crowley was way beyond mere Amorality. At Cefalu, he advocated some form of unrestricted (but probably governed by him) free will love. I believe he did this long before Cefalu, and well after his tour in Sicily, so I would ask how he suffered from a "trap" at Cefalu?

The "trap" in my opinion is thinking that Do What Thou Wilt means "do whatever you want without consequence because the rules of acceptable human conduct do not apply to me/you/us." Actions always have consequences. True Will when found is generally unstoppable and eventually accepted. But the path leading one there can be messy as we try on different suits of behavior.

Posted by: @shiva

If you were to change "invariably" to "usually" or "almost always," I'd go happily along with your principle.

Yes of course. I'm really just saying that too often the devotion of a student to a spiritual leader/guru is used to manipulate them and this perverts the role of the guru master/student relationship. Many stories of Indian masters who failed their tests when they came to the West.

Posted by: @shiva

Sorry for what?

Not sorry for what I said just saying sorry if I put you on the spot. No worries. Next pile on.

 


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Shiva
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07/06/2020 7:05 pm  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

The "trap" in my opinion is thinking that Do What Thou Wilt means "do whatever you want..."

Gotcha!  Not "Got You," but "I Get It," and I've heard that one before. Again, this is a case of the vehicle, the lower self, getting its desires in the way of the Will Locomotive.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

... if I put you on the spot. No worries. Next pile on.

 

image

 

Next

image

 


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hadgigegenraum
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08/06/2020 4:38 pm  

In consideration of this topic, a happenstance opening of Phyllis Seckler (Soror Meral)'s book The Thoth Tarot, Astrology & Other Selected Writings, brought me to an interview where Heather Des Roche goes into asking Phyllis questions about woman and the OTO and where my glance came to this part of the exchange:

H: What are your thoughts about Crowley's apparent views on woman?

SM: Horrible! For five years I wouldn't read Crowley because I was so angry at his attitude at woman. And Regard used to always laugh at him too, be he [A/C] was brought up in the late 1800's and some of the woman that were his concubines were not exactly the best examples of womanhood. Well, let see, there was Alostrael, who complained that she didn't want to be any longer with Crowley because it was "sex sex sex all the time' and she was sick of it. (all laughing) That's what a woman had to put up with from him. That is why he had so many.

Now this was later in the interview, an excellent interview,where the beginning of the interview starts with Heather stating "....Everywhere i go people seem to think the O.T.O. is a boys club and that is not the case." Soror Meral's answer affirms that the OTO is not and says 'Woman do not understand their importance." to which she later in the answer says something very interesting about Crowley's magical career that I will quote;

SM: "They think the O.T.O. is a boys' club, but they don't realize that the woman are the most important part of the whole thing. When you read (In The Continuum V.2, N.6, and read it out lout to your friends and then discuss it amongst yourselves. Look what happens in the Mass. It's the woman who's put on the top of the world and he worships. She is the voice of Nuit; she always has been. in Crowley's case for instance, men helped him get as far as Tiphareth, but after that it was the woman who helped him go farther and to finally cross the Abyss, and he admits it. And that's because woman naturally have this positive attitude about spirituality. Of course in some woman that 's been crushed entirely and they have to learn how to come back to it I think. That is, if they are willing to work. In any case whether it is male or female, the occult studies mean work---capital W---all the way through...and underline it! (laughs) There are a great many persons who are just playing at occult studies. They don't want to work. They don't want to meditate. They don't want to discipline themselves. Woman have had to have a lot of discipline if they have children. You can't have a child and not be disciplined. of course is possible, I suppose in some cases. Well, you read terrible things in the newspapers."

She later reemphasizes that 'woman don't realize their own power'!

The interview has interesting details of how she came to Agape Lodge, states in so many words that Wilfred Smith used to make advances at woman that caused disruption in the workings that Jane Wolfe said that he had a "dirty aura"....that people were dabbling in Enochian and Goetic explorations before they were ready, that later Grady tried to kick Phyllis out of the OTO that she then joined AMORC got their 9th Degree and was impressed with the correspondence courses, etc and that if she had the money she would put a system together like that, but that correspondence does not work because people lie, you have to look at people in their eyes cause then she would know if they are lying or not...

There is good discussion about men and woman in Thalamic work including:

H: Do you consider the title of Scarlet Woman to be the Thalamic role for the female magician?"

SM: No. The Scarlet Woman is---even Crowley misunderstood it---every woman that he had an affair with that was good for him; that is that helped him to cross the Abyss or something, or helped him get onto higher grades he called Scarlet Woman---even his first wife. But the Scarlet Woman is---well can you explain what Nuit is? Can you explain what Babylon i? The Scarl;et woman is an essence of both of those, and it's something that's beyond anyone's understanding. it's very spiritual. Woman like to dress up in red and say they're a Scarlet Woman. And I like to say to them, "Oh, were you a Mistress of Crowley's?" 9laughing0 That's also crazy stuff, you see."

She then goes on to discuss the Scarlet Woman as like an avatar from outside of this world that comes into manifestation for a time then it is over, as this would be the issue with Crowley and his partners. Soror Meral then states in relation to what woman should aspire to is not to be a 'Scarlet Woman' but towards discovering one's Holy Guardian Angel.

There is then discussion of Babylon to which Soror Meral refers to the Vision and the Voice for the answer but says interestingly "That it is life itself, in a way. The whole of life. We all have to live under certain spiritual and material rules. That does not explain it, but that is part of it. (laughs). It's experience itself on one way, but that's just one way."

There are interesting questions about OTO history of the revival of OTO through Grady's letters through Crowley that did not mean much to her and where she says- "So, the whole thing why you have an O.T.O. now, is my fault. (laughing)"

 I will note that the wonderful interview comes with important praise for Jane Wolfe, whom she notes did not have an affair with Crowley, though she does in one part of the interview put Jane's dedication as getting close to the being of the role of Scarlet Woman and that it was through Jane that she was brought into the A ^ A^  and that she had to throw Grady out of the A^A^ after 10 years because he  could not do the work, that "He had no right to initiate anyone because he had not done the Probrationer work." and that "the trouble with Grady---now I will tell you this---is that he ruined his brain."

i include this per Grady as it has bearing upon what she had mentioned, as quoted, concerning 'discipline' and that it does have bearing upon the complexion of behavior around said O.T.O etc. where Gerry Cornelius work is important in towards these issues.

There is much in the short interview of that in my estimation is important and an expanded discussion might require examination of Crowley's defining of Chastity as actually vital to Thelemic life practice!

Thanks

93

HG

 

 


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Shiva
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08/06/2020 8:22 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Heather stating "....Everywhere i go people seem to think the O.T.O. is a boys club and that is not the case." Soror Meral's answer affirms that the OTO is not and says 'Woman do not understand their importance."

Checking down memory lane in the rear-view mirror, and the history books as well, I find ONE OTO Grand Master that was a woman, and Solar Lodge has been officially labeled clandestine and of no account. Other than that, it certainly has all the trapping of a boy's club wherein women are invited to join and participate, as long as they keep their mouths shut and the Tuat open for business.

Meral says, "'Woman do not understand their importance." Her statements indicates that OTO was a boy's club because women have not come up to speed with their gnosis.

(I make no reference to contemporary (c)OTO where stranger things appear to be under way).

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

It's the woman who's put on the top of the world and he worships.

Crowley wrote that up to a certain point, all his teachers were men. After that point (probably around the time of The Book of Lies), all his teachers were women. He also places Nuit and Babalon and women in an exalted position (in some writings), while degrading them in other harsh scribblings.

This whole male versus female discussion is empty rattling. Yin is opposite to Yang, yet complimentary ... so men and women are equal. If boy's clubs in secret societies, politics, and big biz seem to be dominated by men, this is because previous times (the stone age) demanded that for survival, a group/herd/harem leader had to be the strongest and most aggressive/defensive specimen available. This still holds true, but mental intervention over physical force now allows women to take place in leadership roles ... but the stone age, physical strength, model still has the upper hand.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

it was the woman who helped him go farther and to finally cross the Abyss,

If we are to believe The Book of Lies, which is a foolish endeavor, is the Record of Perdurabo's crossing the Abyss, which he more or less says is so, then it was the lack (disappearance) of the woman (Laylah) that propelled him the final two metres across the great divide (the Book stops at Ch 91 - only two to go).

Regardless of what AC, or Meral, or even Genesis P.O. said, everything and anything upon which one is reliant or dependent will be removed. One gets to keep all kinds of things (as possessions or aspects of their character), as long as one does not rely on them for support.

This does not deny the fact that a woman may help to prepare a male candidate for "annihilation." In fact, males help to prepare the ladies for the same "destruction." In further fact, a perfectly-balanced "lineage" includes a string of male-female-male-female-male-etc. This ideal linkage, symbolized in the letters O-T-O (0+0+0+ etc), works really well in practical application (as long as sex is not part of the deal) , but it is rarely seen, for polarities and seniorities are almost always mixed and confused in  the realities of life in an earth-suit.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

She later reemphasizes that 'woman don't realize their own power'!

Well, some do. The Path is different for men and women. The same planes, or spheres, or levels of consciousness, or neurocircuits have to be controlled, but the approach, the sequence, and the method may vary widely if we pit a woman's progress against One Star in Sight.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

The Scarl;et woman is an essence of both of those, and it's something that's beyond anyone's understanding.

No, it isn't. Nothing is beyond one's understanding (Binah - Gnosis). These concepts and distinctions, and equalities are beyond knowledge. The ordinary mind cannot such concepts that are based on non-duality, and attempts to put them in writing or speech are doomed to failure, unless they are presented in paradox, which is more zen than reason, and people will laugh at the authoritative author ... and maybe throw a stone or torch a car.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

She then goes on to discuss the Scarlet Woman as like an avatar from outside of this world that comes into manifestation for a time then it is over

This is a very good description. Certain woman will become overshadowed by the Babalon archetype. Others will directly reveal the Nuit format. I have known Maat in physical form. One hardliner lesbian crossed the line and manifested someone similar to one of those Graeco-Roman ladies like Minerva, or Artemis, or Diana, or some other cosmic general who specialized in hunting or war.

I hope I am painting a visible picture. The archetypal overshadowing for any man, woman, or paired couple, is going to be different each individual, and perhaps each encounter. The Beast 666, the Scarlet Woman, V.V.V.V.V., the A.'.A.'., and Thelema are pretty much Crowley Concepts, even if he borrowed some of them from the New Testament and the G.D.  They do not necessarily included in any given individual's perception of his or her governing archetypes ,... at higher levels.

In the lower levels, such as Outer Orders, or Investigative Reporting, or [groan] publick forums, these issues are all clouded and mixed with superstition.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

she had to throw Grady out of the A^A^ after 10 years because he  could not do the work

Yeah, this one has been quoted a bit, and I'll make a comment just to get it posted again, so folks don't happen to think McM was any kind of enlightened being. He determined his purpose, which was to secure the OTO, and he did that ... along with instructions that resulted in the incumbent (c)OTO that we know so well today.

 


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ignant666
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08/06/2020 8:44 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

women are invited to join and participate, as long as they keep their mouths shut and the Tuat open for business.

A very apt summary of the Crowley/Reuss OTO plan, and quite possibly of the (c)OTO revival group.

And the best pun of the week (month?), made me "LOL" as the kids say.


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Shiva
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08/06/2020 10:59 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

the Crowley/Reuss OTO plan

It was a plan. But it didn't work. Agape was pretty loose, but they still ended up in yin-yang pairs, and Solar was virtually monogamous. I have no idea what McOTO's policy was, but it wasn't rocked by sex scandal. The revivers ...?  The necromancers ...?  Not here. In publick. We don't wanna get torted.

 


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ignant666
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08/06/2020 11:45 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

We don't wanna get torted.

Indeed, although backwards- we do not want to tort (or be "tort feasors", as we say in the law biz) no one, and thus perhaps get sued.

Incidentally, "tort" is essentially a shortened form of the word "torture". My Torts class in first semester of law school was taught by an elderly and irascible Hasid, who would yank his black velvet yarmulke violently back and forth when he got riled by our slowness to understand things while inquisitioning us during  class recitals. The etymological connection between "tort" and "torture" is very apparent to all first -year law students.


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dom
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09/06/2020 12:38 am  

 

 

From

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib49.htm

THE BOOK OF BABALON

 

 

The Third Ritual

[March 3 1946 E.V. continued]

.....................

"Thou as a man and as a god hast strewn about the earth and in the heavens many loves, these recall, concentrate, consecrate each woman thou hast raped. Remember her, think upon her, move her into BABALON, bring her into BABALON, each, one by one until the flame of lust is high."

 

Say what?  Is that misogyny or poetic licence?   

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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09/06/2020 12:55 am  

@dom

'misogyny or poetic licence'....well considering the sources try psychosis!


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Falcon
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09/06/2020 12:57 am  

@dom Crowley was in correspondence with Parsons during the course of the Babalon Working, and warned Parsons of his potential overreactions to the magic he was performing, while simultaneously deriding Parsons' work to others.  See: Sutin, Lawrence (2002). Do What Thou Wilt: A Life of Aleister Crowley


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Shiva
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09/06/2020 1:16 am  
Posted by: @dom

Is that misogyny or poetic licence?

It's a channeled doc. You know, some form of a holy text. It gets a dispensation, an indulgence, because he gets to say whatever he wants ... and look where it got him.

 


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dom
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09/06/2020 1:36 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Is that misogyny or poetic licence?

It's a channeled doc. You know, some form of a holy text. It gets a dispensation, an indulgence, because he gets to say whatever he wants ... and look where it got him.

 

Well pioneer scientists can be reckless, chemists in particular.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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frater-r
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09/06/2020 5:01 am  

Since it looks like the #Metoo movement has burgeoned into a full blown psy-ops operation, I guess it depends if Crowely was relevant to that operation.


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Shiva
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09/06/2020 7:30 am  
Posted by: @dom

Well pioneer scientists can be reckless, chemists in particular.

I thought that story was debunked years ago.

 


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christibrany
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10/06/2020 4:35 pm  

@shiva

 

Babalon blew him up


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Shiva
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10/06/2020 5:22 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

Babalon blew him up

Right. There are three choices: (1) He dropped the fulminate (boom).
(2) Coverters arranged the boom against a top secret traitor who was bailing out.
(3) Magical workings annihilated the Magister's vehicle because he didn't choose to stay behind 'til the last sentient standing has achieved liberation.

#3 is compatible with either #1 or #2, which are not compatible with each other.

Please feel free to mix and match to your heart's content. Then wait for the Magic-hole Hair to explain it in his new book, due out somewhere in the next five years.

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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10/06/2020 6:25 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

stay behind 'til the last sentient standing has achieved liberation

Quack, quack! for there is a further secret.


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dom
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10/06/2020 6:28 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

@shiva

 

Babalon blew him up

..not Shiva the Destroyer? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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10/06/2020 6:37 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @christibrany

Babalon blew him up

Right. There are three choices: (1) He dropped the fulminate (boom).
(2) Coverters arranged the boom against a top secret traitor who was bailing out.
(3) Magical workings annihilated the Magister's vehicle because he didn't choose to stay behind 'til the last sentient standing has achieved liberation.

#3 is compatible with either #1 or #2, which are not compatible with each other.

Please feel free to mix and match to your heart's content. Then wait for the Magic-hole Hair to explain it in his new book, due out somewhere in the next five years.

 

I'll take, 'what is fulminate' for #1, Alex. 

Which leads to #3 as the behind the scenes Work led to his accidental drop.

He knew a lot, he founded the American side of the liquid rockets almost singlehandedly but I don't think they would have killed him .  I think at that point in time he had already lost his clearances and been kicked out of his job for being a pervy magician, by which time, Von Braun had already given them juicier stuff. 


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