The chart seems to be very difficult to get to any reasonable size after pasting into my post above, and i can no longer recall how i got it to be a legible size from the reddit post.
Here is a link to the reddit post, which may enable others to view this chart:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/17mf9xv/lineage_map/
@azrael2393 - i, and perhaps others here, have zero idea who "Surgo/Nubti" might be, or what he/she might have to with the chart.
Would you perhaps care to provide some context/explanation for these cryptic remarks about a person who "recanted", but is not Buddhist? Maybe he is "now" a Buddhist?
@azrael2393 - i, and perhaps others here, have zero idea who "Surgo/Nubti" might be, or what he/she might have to with the chart.
Would you perhaps care to provide some context/explanation for these cryptic remarks about a person who "recanted", but is not Buddhist? Maybe he is "now" a Buddhist?
I forgot how always very welcoming the regulars of this place are.
Surgo/Nubti is the one who made this chart - you can find him on it. He was very active on Reddit and on the various Thelemic discord servers from 2016 to 2020. He was a student of Satyr and of the late David Richard Jones, and he inherited from both the fixation with Enochian as the true initiatory path in Thelema, as well as the will to mock everyone who didn't agree with him.
And yes, it was meant to be a "now".
i, and perhaps others here, have zero idea who "Surgo/Nubti" might be, or what he/she might have to with the chart.
You find him/her/them bottom left. Coming from Keith418, is this where we would find Los?
I forgot how always very welcoming the regulars of this place are.
You seem to be being sarcastic here? If so, what on earth is unwelcoming about requesting clarification of a cryptic/baffling post?
If i am correct that you are upset, you may need to grow a thicker skin. I certainly did not mean to be unpleasant, and i think you need to work pretty hard to read that into my post.
Considering the barrage of vituperation most of your posts over at the Kindergarten* elicit, i think i was positively gracious. You should post here most often.
----------------------
*Meaning the Thelema sub-reddit. Attempting to follow in the footsteps of the illustrious S.'. H.'. Frater Dr. Los PhD 8=3 with his very catchy coinage of "the Fruitcake factory" for the then-active Heruraha (Eshelman A.'. A.'.) site
Apols for double-post, justified by: A link to a much more easily-navigable version. On further zooming, i have found this "Surgo" person.
I am guessing that the "S.'." pendant from "Georgina Brayton" is our own Shiva, with "K.'." perhaps his wife Kali.
[I]s this where we would find Los?
Los would be initiated by Erwin if anyone; i have little idea who Keith418 is.
But i am pretty sure that Los has said that his "8=3" is self-conferred. That is how his claim to have a PhD came up: someone pointed out that a self-conferred 8=3 is as nonsensical as a self-conferred PhD, to which The Phallus Of A Goat replied "Oh, i am a PhD too."
I am guessing that the "S.'." pendant from "Georgina Brayton" is our own Shiva, with "K.'." perhaps his wife Kali.
This would make sense.
i have little idea who Keith418 is.
Keith418 is the very Keith418 who comes here to visit from time to time. He recently made an appearance and I identified him as a "high-ranking member of the OTO," but neglected to point out that he is, or at least was, the self-appointed chair of the "Thelemic Morals Division." Uh-huh.
Additionally, certain "other" high-raning members of the non-OTO have identified K418 as one of the players in The Black Lodge of Santa Cruz (under a different story name). Uh-huh.
Furthermore, I was contacted by email by K418, who misrepresented himself (in such a red-flag manner) as a "researcher into Oriental Medicine and Metaphysics," or such. Since Or Med was never mentioned again. this up-front misrepresentation set the tone for anything following.
Anyone's task, should they have the time to accept it, will be to synthesize and resolve the following components into a singularity that we can present to Ignant ...
Thelemic Morals Committee
The Black Lodge of Santa cruz
Wears false Masks
OTO
But i am pretty sure that Los has said that his "8=3" is self-conferred.
ALL 8=3s are self-conferred. Nobody else confers grades above the Great Divide. After one 'self-confers and starts exuding understanding, if anybody notices and takes heed, then maybe they can be found in a chart.
But for a "lineage," one needs an uphioll link. Yes, Los is a product of Erwin. Does Erwin have an uphill?
Of course, this chart
a much more easily-navigable version.
Thanks. I was navigating the smaller chart when everything crashed and I lost 3 threads. Upon returning, your NEW LINK was right there.
I have examined this artifact and find it to be truie, as far as the folks I know and know of, but not some of the entries are in my mentat. Here is my professional pro bono opinion ...
1. Jack Parsons' 8=3 is missing. I have seen his declaration (Belarion 8=3).
2. I would like to see some evidence of 8=3 being associated with Germer, other than vague comments by AC.
3.I can confirm the line running from AC through Aquarius down to A78, as well as the AC to Regardies through MEL to A78. This link is active, now.
4. Did anyone notice a preponderance of jump-claimers? I would like to examine the aura of each 8=3, as I supect superego chicanery.
5.The CHART is labelled "A.'.A.'. lineage," but there are numerous references to OTO and "AA status unknown" ... so this is really a "Thelemic" Chart, isn't it ?
From the thelema sub-reddit, a rather nicely-done, but somewhat cumbersome-to-read "family tree" style chart of the various A.'. A.'. lineages
this is most interesting...the part about Aleisterion is just Alhysterical!
this is most interesting...the part about Aleisterion is just Alhysterical!
Hi, Aleisterion. Here is your chance to clear things up, if you care to do so.
Hi, Aleisterion. Here is your chance to clear things up, if you care to do so.
Howdy, Lutz! By the way, I tried to email you (and kidneyhawk too, come to think of it), but I think the imps of the internet ate my emails (or something of that nature - tee hee!). Anyway, I'll give it a quick shot!
Please understand, the earlier trepidation I expressed (at the Leah Hirsig thread) was less owing to a desire to make money, and more to a genuine fear of Shiva's tomatoes! But seriously, never was I so foolish as to think that being connected to Therion and Alostrael in any way would lead to wealth. No, if I wanted to be rich so very badly, I would've become a televangelist instead.
Mind you, Anna's book, Gospel of Dead Souls, is under development, and it's mind-blowing already, but it matters nothing what I say one way or another: I may as well be open. I wish her all the best when it comes.
I
There is a direct Magical line, in the Alostrael magical lineage, to Therion and Alostrael. The reason it is called the "Alostrael magical lineage" and not the "Therionic/Alostraelian magical line" (besides the fact that the latter is quite cumbersome), is simply because I have always felt a more direct connection to Alostrael. Aliana - or Poupee - also has a genuinely close and powerful relationship with Therion. The book, Gospel of Dead Souls, is chock full of the paranormal magick that emerged out of this passionate and powerful father-daughter magical relationship.
Both I - and my magical sister - have always considered our connection to both Therion and Alostrael a very real one, originating neither from heightened imagination nor exacerbated ego, but truly and verifiably sprouting out of the magick of these two geniuses of magick - with a little help from the Trickster, Tahuti, whose Grand Design, thwarted in 1920, finally manifested in 1968 (93 years after the nativity of the Thelemic Prophet), and again in 1976 (93 years following the birth the sixth Scarlet Woman, Leah Hirsig, Alostrael, when the brother and sister of the Beast and the Beauteous One (the Queen of Dead Souls), died before their entwined destinies were complete. These were the "twin warriors" - twin dead souls - whose work was to work together in love, seeking love among the kings.
In other words, I, Aleisterion, am the reincarnation of the male child that died shortly prior to birth; and Anna is the reincarnation of Poupee, "the Doll", or Anne Leah. She has vivid memories of Leah, at a mere few months or so old; and I, too, have had visions of the horrific premature birth/death, if you will. The Destiny of the Aeon, and the Power of the King & Queen of the Shadow Realm, brought us back together.
As a consequence of this very brief dysfunctional incarnation, however, my own life suffered extreme disorientation, as is made clear in Anna's book.
Anna, meanwhile, not only shares my writing talent, but has had similar paranormal events, as well, in her youth and later, of course, after we united in love and in work.
Recall, if you will, that Crowley refers to the fact that the Egyptians used the incestuous love of brother and sister as a way of attaining the Great Link. [MiT&P.]
II
I have always considered my own relationship with Alostrael and To Mega Therion as very similar to that which existed between Uwais Al-Carni and the Prophet Mohammed - a genuinely magical one, entirely in the spirit (if you will). I have received numerous visits from Therion and Alostrael throughout the years, undergoing rituals in the spirit, out-of-body, many times, and being taught; as too has my sister-wife, Aliana.
None of the above, however, is expected to curry favor or to win recruits. In fact, we fully hope to remain a small family of Thelemic Tradition & Doctrine!
That being so, our small family is growing! Aliana's biological daughter, Alyssa, is carrying on her mother's power and practice; but get this: she never once put Alyssa through any kind of "brainwashing", in fact she was never ever told her actual mother's magical name (Aliana). So imagine her total shock when, out of the blue, Alyssa told her that she had named her daughter Elliana! "It just came to me," she said.
Aliana, meanwhile, has foreseen a great destiny for "the daughter's daughter" - so we shall see!
III
Soror Aliana is at work making Gospel of Dead Souls, which in spite of the title is not a religious book at all. She received her initiation in 2001.
Frater Aleisterion received magical initiation at the spectral hands of Therion in 1988, then again in 1992, then one last time in 1997, the 93rd Year of the Thelemic Age. He has now suffered two strokes and a heart attack [as of November, 2023]; but is now working on Book Five anyway.
Sorry that had to be so long.
As a postscript to the above, I need to add that I worked day and night, following the Instructions in The Equinox, from 1988 until 2001, when the work routine switched to include Aliana, with special work taking place 2003-2004.
Cheers,
777
@aleisterion Thank you very much.
When did you send an email? I am a world-famous procrastinator and world-infamous avoider of bad news, so sometimes I simply "forget" to check mails except obvious work mails. But I also don't delete anything during these phases, so if you got the address right, I will see it, I have no spam filter whatsoever.
I have no idea if non-in-person lineages "count" but I also do not care. But it seems that this strange "Kenneth" did not play a role whatsoever. You might want to - if you care to - inform the createor of the chart.
I have no idea if non-in-person lineages "count"
Of course they don't (do not) count, if one is holding an A.'.A.'. banner in their right hand, and a picture of Therion in their left.
It also depends (entirely?) on which Collegium is being referenced. In the Super Order, why would anyone continue to operate under the initials and dots of A.'.A.'. ? "... entitled to found orders based on themselves."
I hold a deep suspicion against anyone who claims a high grade in absolute Self-reliance, but who continues to promote, claim, and regurgitate the stuff of their prior affiliation(s). Riding on Crowley's coat-tails recives no cash back.
The Middle College is not at all like written in One Star. A temporay hot zone might be established if there's a real 7=4 on hand.
The Outer Elementary School is very confusing and congested, as cited in One Star. Why, one could look at the Lineage Chart on exhibit now - and start to get a picture of the extended-family paradigm.
But what of the self-reliant solo seeker who takes P.'. or Th.'. at his word by undertaking the Path of Self-Initiation by gathering up the books and tattered scrolls, doing the Work, then entering the Temple to perform Pyramidos, Tuat-Passing, and HGA-invoking ?
... but I also do not care.
Congratulations ! You may pass-on to the next Pile-on. Any given person is what and who they are when presented for direct in-person examination; nothing can be hidden.
Indirect interaction is possible via the etheric-physical phenomenon God has provide for our Souls though the emblem w.'.w.'.w.'., and it's not hard to tell who is crazy, often right from their first posting ... but then everybody here is crazy, so it becomes a matter of stability. Show me your face at the highest level where you are stable, and we will have found your (anyone's) real, operative degree.
There is also the factor of other people coming into one's zone-of-influence who have developed to Middle School Adeptship ... without ever hearing of Crowley, A,'.s, OTongOs, VVVVV, or Rose Kelly.
There is also a really big number of 8=3s on The Lineage Chart, far more than is reasonable (of course), who are jump-claimers with a really long pole for pole-vault claiming of vast areas and stages and planes of consciousness. I remain in areas of doubt.
My bottom-line recommendation is to memorize the Lineage Chart, then put in the same pile with the other sacred texts and footnotes, with fiddles, and get a can of petrol ...
I've no knowledge of a Kenneth!
I thought that was a bit odd in the Chart, what with all the ?s and tentativities Kenneth is like Da'ath on the Tree - where it is, but i's slyly called "The False Sphere."
@shiva It matters not one whit what one calls it. I like to call it the Holy Order; but again, one could just as well refer to it as the Sun & Moon Club, if one so desires! It matters not; for the song remains the same.
It matters not one whit what one calls it.
I like to refer to "the invisible spectrum of consciousness," to which "... that has no name" may be appended in cases of nihilism.
It matters not one whit what one calls it.
I guess the thing is that people tend to think, when it doesn't matter, why call it A.‘.A.‘. at all? Because you pick up on some big history. Sun & Moon Club would have been perfectly cool, but you chose A.'.A.'.
It reminds me of Los critisising this whole game all the time and suddenly becoming a Magister Templi. Or was it Magus?
By the way, I got your mail.
Magister Templi. Or was it Magus?
The signature of eternal delight ..."Los 8=3"
The signature of eternal delight ..."Los 8=3"
Of course, there's always the possibility he may already have "advanced" to Magus by this time. (Or even 10=1! But he not allowed to publickly claim that)
N Joy
there's always the possibility he may already have "advanced" to Magus by this time.
We have spies who monitor his advancements. Nothing new reported since 8=3. There is always the possibility that anyone might be more than they pretend to be, but in this case, moribund skeptishizm would prohibit moving beyond one's opacity.
Sun & Moon Club would have been perfectly cool, but you chose A.'.A.'.
Did I though? I'm sure that S & M Club would've been appropriate enough (ha ha); but most of the time, in private, I really do refer to it as the "Holy Order". But there are times when one wants to be clear to what one refers.
By the way, I got your mail.
Cool! I seem to have screwed up both yours and kidneyhawk's email addy...
I seem to have screwed up both yours and kidneyhawk's email addy...
Nope. Just wrote you. It has simply been a busy time in the offline world! 🙂
- An interesting view of this tree and the twig from which the blossom fell.