D: ... but even then, what he says would still stand or fall on its own merits.

Just like an 8() = 3[] will stand or fall on his or her own merits. Saturn is Time, and Time will Tell.

T: Los is just another Charlatan that claims the grade without being tested .

In AL, it says, "There is no certain test." That is why certain recent threads have been so confusing and controversial. Many people, via their mental faculties, want to "test" (prove or disprove) Los' claim.

Of course, AL then goes on to describe a certain test: "Strike hard and low."

@Azidonis

. . . he [Crowley] stated that the Old Aeon systems did not go across the Abyss fully.

"stated" implies to me that he was considered he was stating a fact rather than expressing his opinion. Just how far does the category "old Aeon systems" encompass? Buddhism? Taoism? Advaita Vedanta?

It is remiscent of the laughable view expressed here recently, that Zen Buddhism was inadequate because there was no allowance made therein for "course correction".

Los wrote: "What need would there ever be to determine somebody else’s “grade”? It seems to me that the people who tend to be interested in this sort of thing are the “order types” who seriously believe in magical “currents” and the idea that somebody else can “transmit” attainment and the like."

I write: "There is absolutely no need to determine someone's "grade". And nobody would ever have thought about Los' "grade", hadn't he announced it boldly on - of all sorts of forums - reddit!"

Strike hard and low! Los 8=3 vs. reddit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y77n--Af1qo

Love=Law
Lutz

Los wrote: “What need would there ever be to determine somebody else’s “grade”? It seems to me that the people who tend to be interested in this sort of thing are the “order types” who seriously believe in magical “currents” and the idea that somebody else can “transmit” attainment and the like.”

Strike hard and low! Los 8=3 vs. reddit:

Now you're beginning to understand why I said it had prankish elements. Your head is being fucked with. 30 pages worth of being punk'd and pranked of obsessing over why? What? Who? How? Grades? 8=3? For those who view orders and lineage as being ass-backwards...it's funny.

@Michael Staley

“stated” implies to me that he was considered he was stating a fact rather than expressing his opinion. Just how far does the category “old Aeon systems” encompass? Buddhism? Taoism? Advaita Vedanta?

It is remiscent of the laughable view expressed here recently, that Zen Buddhism was inadequate because there was no allowance made therein for “course correction”."

Agreed. I don't necessarily agree with Crowley's claim, but he did say it. Even works such as The Urn show that he didn't believe it totally, himself. I'd like to remember where he said it. Perhaps it was when he was talking about the Golden Dawn.

At any rate, isn't that supposed to be the whole idea behind arborgation of the Old Aeon? But, in The Urn we find Crowley looking to Buddhist works and even Jung for answers.

Monty Python is all very well, but here's the real thing:
"The Marine and the Kickboxer."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxRKGiXoMb4

@dom :

oh ok so Erwin was discussed in that some time ago. Thanks I’ll check it out when I get time.

It seems you have very poor memory skills david/ dom/ williams/ anonymous --- particularly as I reminded you of this thread only a few days ago --- in addition to what I have previously observed is a long-running and ongoing fascination, nay if not obsession, with the condition of mastery, or should I say master-dom? (no pun intended; I mean the condition of being a magister.) 

Along with "Joe Schmoe is Your Master", that makes two entire threads started on this subject quite apart from fulsome contributions on the same matter to many others. What do you think this say this say about you psychologically, pray?!

Trying not to repeat myself over you (as the dyspeptic bishop said to the actress),
N Joy

It seems you have very poor memory skills david/ dom/ williams/ anonymous — particularly as I reminded you of this thread only a few days ago

What makes you think I was listening?

You were talking to yourself.

david: Even if you for some reason ignore JB's posts, surely the responses of so many others to his posts ought to clue you into what he is saying? I know it is very "Skeptical" to ignore things that critique your fragile belief-system, but really, c'mon now, keep up, or try to.

Also, i notice you fail to respond to the point that he and i both made: you sure have a bad memory for your past posts from before you resurfaced as "dom". Sorry your effort to disclaim them, and stuff the "david" persona down the memory hole, failed.

Also, i notice you fail to respond to the point that he and i both made: you sure have a bad memory for your past posts from before you resurfaced as “dom”. Sorry your effort to disclaim them, and stuff the “david” persona down the memory hole failed.

Forgive me for having a life and not remembering that a thread I started 2 or 3 years ago involved the subject of Erwin.

I know you and the Cable Guy are constantly trying to take your pettiness to new levels here but...... jesus.

Anyway where were we? Oh yeah, "hippy movement".

As part of my campaign to take my pettiness to new levels, i can't help noticing that you really can't keep up. You have been derailing another thread, one you started, to discuss hippies instead of the OT. We haven't been discussing hippies, or beatniks, or Dostoevsky, here.

That would here:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/your-best-magical-success-stories/

This thread is for making fun of your High Holy Goo-Roo's sad, and ludicrous, claim that he is "preeminently the Master of Mysticsm, and "the phallus of a goat", and exploring his claim that he is an 8=3 in the non-terrestrial A.'. A.'., not that other one.

yeah that's how riveting and de-railed these two threads have become.

@dom :

What makes you think I was listening?
You were talking to yourself.

Hmm, looks like your recent immersion in the writings of Los has not improved your manners, david/dom, in fact you seem to be rather more picking up his bumptiousness and brusqueness rather than whatever intelligence he has.  Next off you'll be calling people idiots or clowns, eh?

In the immortal words of your other apparent role model Alf Garnett, "look, 'stands to reason dunnit: f you just listened you might learn something."

You should take note that whenever I sometimes give what you'd no doubt label a "snarky" or glib or facetious answer, I always try to counterbalance it out by adding something valid, informative and relatively serious too. You should also bear this in mind.

Hoping you've managed to find some of your no doubt valuable time to "check it out" yet.

Educatively yours
N Joy

PS Oh and thank you ignant666 for your backing me up on this, which I read after I'd typed the above.  My, people will begin to talk...  well, let em!

Tiger (quoting Los): "“Has anyone started a discussion on what the A.’.A.’. is and how it is related to the terrestrial groups that call themselves by that name?” [...] Hoping Los and others will chime in."

"The Law of Thelema is given in the Book of the Law. [EQUINOX I, VII and X.] THE EQUINOX has been founded to promulgate and demonstrate this Law.

Each seeker is taught how to realise Truth for himself, by means accurate and well-tested (source: Equinox III(1) (Detroit, 1919), p. 9-10, EDITORIAL ( http://www.the-equinox.org/vol3/eqv3n1/eq0301009.htm)) ."

On page 26 in the thread titled 'A new resident of the City of the Pyramids!: Los', I asked if Los as a 8=3, now was able to recognize if another person really is a 8=3, and if Los as a 8=3 now can detect if another person also really is a 8=3? Los has not yet answered those questions, but my impression is that Los does recognize one Erwin as another person that really is a 8=3. An impression which implies that Los as a 8=3 now can detect that the said Erwin really is another 8=3.

On page 26 in the thread titled ‘A new resident of the City of the Pyramids!: Los’, I asked if Los as a 8=3, now was able to recognize if another person really is a 8=3, and if Los as a 8=3 now can detect if another person also really is a 8=3?. Los has not yet answered those questions, but my impression is that Los does recognize one Erwin as another person that really is a 8=3. An impression which implies that Los as a 8=3 now can detect that the said Erwin really is another 8=3.

Who cares?

Get on with your own work.

Now, if you're an obsessive person lost in his own mire of triviality and ass-backward thinking on what initiation is then..... you're lost.

How are things going over there in the land of the lost?

D: yeah that’s how riveting and de-railed these two threads have become

I actually thought a lot of interesting material had risen to the surface, along with a certain amount of psycho-anal-ysis of assorted posters.

. D: Who cares?
Get on with your own work.
Now, if you’re an obsessive person lost in his own mire of triviality and ass-backward thinking on what initiation is then….. you’re lost.

Now this [^] is a shining example of a courteous and sincere reply.

Ironically it is sincere.

Some guy announces he's 8=3 on the internet.

Why would that announcement rile you?

I have seen nobody here who appears to be riled. I think most people have a lot of fun. Nor is it "some guy", but our favourite Skeptic Thelemite. I thought it was yours also, david, wasn't it?

Love=Law
Lutz

Also, david, which poster is "the Cable Guy" who is a fellow taking-pettiness-to-new-levels practitioner? What do you mean by this epithet? Is this some sort of young people's pop-culture reference that i, as a middle-aged person, am not getting? Thanx for clarifying.

How can NEMO, he who is NO MAN, be "some guy"? Confused here too- isn't an 8=3 "no guy"?

Tickled pink, pettier than the average bear, & not "riled" in the least, your favorite pen-pal,

ignant

My "September 30, 2017 at 11:17 am #101457 Reply" in this thread, was a reply to Tiger (quoting Los): ““Has anyone started a discussion on what the A.’.A.’. is and how it is related to the terrestrial groups that call themselves by that name?” […] Hoping Los and others will chime in.” But thank you to dom for chiming in.

ignant666 on page 2 in this thread states that “The problem [with Los’ 8=3 claim] is, he remains a person who lacks the good general education (his lacks are particularly glaring in science and philosophy, two areas where he imagines himself an expert) AC said should precede The Work, and remains a person who lacks understanding of AC’s work, and, more importantly in evaluating his claim to be a Master, he lacks anything very interesting to say of his own.”

That the 8=3 grade is un-scientific, is pointed out repeatedly by the_real_simon_iff in the thread titled 'A new resident of the City of the Pyramids!: Los':

the_real_simon_iff (page 4): "... claiming 8=3 is one of those vague things that cannot be verified by any method, neither scientific nor paranormal methods."

the_real_simon_iff (page 5): "Los has just assumed a grade of the most un-scientific, un-provable, un-logical kind imaginable and I am just sure (because the claiming of this grade says quite a lot about him) he will show up again. And if not: I couldn’t care less."

the_real_simon_iff (page 13): "Thelema is not really a thing in “real” science. And how can it? It’s all about the individual, about self-introspection and about the unprovable theory that the highest level of freedom is the “best thing” for the individual and for society at large."

the_real_simon_iff (page 16): "Ac’s point in the “the universe is busy with nothing else” passage [...] was [...] that the great and good of history, the scientists, artists, writers, musicians who achieve mastery in their fields, are the same “grade” as one who has achieved a formal “8=3” within A.’. A.’. ..."

the_real_simon_iff (page 21): "the “method of science” and “real science” are not the same thing."

the_real_simon_iff (page 23): "concepts (‘fancy pictures”) like “True Will”, “The Abyss”, and “The Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” have no scientific validity, ..."

As for dom stating "Get on with your own work.", my point is that this work – (when it comes to "There are two attainments in the A.’.A.’.: 5=6 (discovering the True Will) and 8=3 (annihilating the ego).", as stated by Los on the first page of this thread) – is un-scientific. An awareness of that this work pertaining to 5=6 and 8=3 is un-scientific, would be aided by a good general education (including in science and philosophy) akin to what Aleister Crowley said should precede this work.

Los (September 19, 2017 at 4:07 am REPLY #101006): "The term A.’.A.’. is used to refer [...] to an eternal order of which all the terrestrial groups are reflections. This eternal order might be thought of as the “order of things” — that is to say, it is the universe itself, which works according to regular laws that can be studied and learned."

James J Barter (September 23, 2017 at 12:24 am REPLY #101196): "As the so-called “order of things”, rather unoriginal and presumptuous thinking: did Crowley ever state this so baldly anywhere? (and don’t anyone come out with that ‘busy doing nothing else’ quote again!)"

[‘busy doing nothing else’ = "Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'. A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists. The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else, for the relation of the Order to it is that of the man of science to his subject. He writes CaCl2 + H2SO4 = CaSO4 + 2HCl for his own convenience and that of others, but the operation was always in progress independently." Source: The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Part Four: Magical Workings, Chapter 68, page 657.]

"... Every man and every woman has a course, depending partly on the self, and partly on the environment which is natural and necessary for each. Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe, and suffers accordingly." Source: Magick Without Tears by Aleister Crowley, Chapter I: What is Magick?

JB: (and don’t anyone come out with that ‘busy doing nothing else’ quote again!).

"The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else ..."

All terrestrial Orders, store-churches, back-alley kiblahs, and candid grimoires are "reflections" of the natural spectrum of consciousness. It is the invisible Order that has no name among men, or women too. Some reflections are pretty clear and reasonably accurate ... such as A.'.A.'.

Other reflections are grossly distorted. The primary distortion seen most often is when some dude or dame inserts himself or herself in between any given acolyte or aspirant and the final resolution (which may be called God, or Liberation, or Attainment), clearly stating that they are some sort of divine intermediary ... a mediation they will perform for a fee or a donation.