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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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03/07/2018 7:07 pm  

The point Michael raises, and the points Shiva made, in response to wellreadwellbred's posts, like probably every other aspect of The Great And Powerful Los' ludicrous claim that he is a Secret Chief, has been thoroughly discussed in the 40 pages of this thread, and the several off-shoot threads.

What is the point of more discussion of these same points, wellreadwellbred?

Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, i am unable to find a video of a dead horse being beaten to post in response to wellreadwellbred's posts.

However, here is an instructive video about the effects of having bees in one's bonnet:

https://youtu.be/d4MqTCIDKhU


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Shiva
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03/07/2018 8:33 pm  

MS: Perhaps you’d like to suggest, wellreadwellbred, how attainment of 8=3 might be “scientifically measured or tested” at all, let alone “with a degree of certainty or accuracy”.

Perhaps WRWB is merely pointing out that theoretically The Equinox had some statement about Science, etc, that could be interpreted as "THERE MUST BE SOME TEST!" He actually was bemoaning the fact that There is no certain Test.

Actually, AL does propose a test. "Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master! "

In martial arts, we are taught to: "Always keep the Ki (Qi/Chi) on the low side." The techniques (including "striking") don't work properly unless you actually do this.

I’m agog, and no doubt others are too.

I know Gog and Magog, but I've never heard of "Agog."
1+3+70+3 = 77

Oh, Him! Or Her (Laylah).


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Tiger
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03/07/2018 8:59 pm  

Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!

In martial arts fighting an opponent is the easy part you either win or loose and it’s over . I hear the Kata’s are bit harder where your up against yourself .


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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03/07/2018 9:06 pm  

@Shiva

Agog: "In eager readiness; expectant"


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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03/07/2018 11:41 pm  

In support of AC's point (and Shiva's), as a former student of martial arts, nightclub bouncer, and "street-fighting man", while there may be no certain test, we may reasonably question the credentials of the person in a fight who is convinced to lie down and bleed.


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dom
 dom
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04/07/2018 12:03 am  

@ignant666

In support of AC’s point (and Shiva’s), as a former student of martial arts, nightclub bouncer, and “street-fighting man”, while there may be no certain test, we may reasonably question the credentials of the person in a fight who is convinced to lie down and bleed.

Didn't you work in Law also? Cop? Lawyer? Then you went into teaching/education?


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ignant666
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04/07/2018 12:41 am  

To respond to david's Q even though kinda OT: i took the NYPD test, but was never a cop, a friend who was a detective talked me out of it after taking the test around 1985. He pointed out that i had/have a problem with authority (got even worse after i became one). I have had many many cops as students (see below).

I was a bicycle messenger/drug-dealer (day job, and night and weekend job, respectively) at the time.
I had spent a good deal of time on NYC's Lower East Side, with very short hair, looking for trouble, and finding it daily.

My last couple jobs before messengering were bouncing at an illegal after-hours club called Berlin, and a legit mega-club called Danceteria.

Before that i was a cook; the first part of the late Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential was like reading the story of my own teenage years cooking on Cape Cod, and then NYC.

Then i finished my undergrad degree (having been thrown out of two colleges, and high school, previously due to being a psycho), went to law school, passed the NY Bar exam, and found zero jobs in a bad recession. Did a couple record contracts, and crim matters, for musician-friends.

Went into a PhD program in criminal justice, almost immediately got a job on a study of heroin users (i knew many), did that for 20 years, also teaching at City University of New York during that time.

Since it appears i have recently retired and i kinda give zero fucks about folks imagining i am a member of a satanist sex/death cult anymore anyway, here is my Google Scholar page:

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=AL8tn_oAAAAJ

As to my life before i became a genteel (?) academic, trust me, i know what it means to talk someone into lying down and bleeding, both giving and receiving.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 1:19 am  

It is a little sad to see that this thread has gone on for so long, even before Los entered into it briefly. The idea that you guys would be obsessing over someone you have never met and don't know is just sort of weird if you ask me.

How many of you guys have kept blogs where you write out your views on Thelema so clearly, and easily accessible to the reader? How many people have you influenced to think about Thelema? If you don't like what someone else is doing, then try to do better.

I don't understand. Instead sitting here and discussing whether or not some stranger on the internet is where they want to be in life, why don't you become engaged in trying to attain whatever it is you are after?

Great work you guys are doing indeed.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 1:20 am  

Dom, If I understand from this thread you are a fan of both Los and Erwin, and the way they present Thelema.

on May 23, 2018 you wrote:

Jim is a great teacher Imo. He’s good on the 4 worlds and the parts of the Cabbalistic soul, how they all relate to the TOL in terms of advancement. He is probably one of the world’s leading astrologers at this time also.

I'm surprised to see you mention Jim in this regard because it is specifically mentioned on Los' blog (from the very blog post that you quoted earlier) what a 'fruitcake factory' heruraha.net is. Jim is known for banning and deleting many of the threads over the years that have attempted to ask the very same questions that you are raising here in this thread; about the nature of attainment, and about the nature of entities in particular.

Not everybody is always as they seem.


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dom
 dom
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04/07/2018 1:31 am  

That's one fvcked up CV haha, I laughed all the way through it, not at you but with you, I admire your not-giving-a-fvckness there. Call me prejudiced but I don't really view nightclub bouncers as being potential Phd students ha. I suppose school teachers used to try to stop you from going off the rails psycho-wise because they recognized your academic potential but they couldn't get through? One of my school friends was intelligent but his mission was to be a tearaway, it was a bizarre situation.


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dom
 dom
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04/07/2018 1:41 am  

Dom, If I understand from this thread you are a fan of both Los and Erwin, and the way they present Thelema.

I think we're all interested in reductive-materialism and what it has to say but.....fan?


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ignant666
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04/07/2018 1:48 am  

Moogplayer: OMG, Los' other fan and/or sockpuppet has made an appearance! Long time no see, dude!

We have david/dom on a logic course recently, and he seems to be seeing the sad inability of the Great and Powerful Los to engage in the logical reasoning he claims to exalt.

40 pages not of "obsessing over someone you have never met and don’t know", but of laughing at the biggest horse's ass in current Thelema, a persona we know all too well.


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ignant666
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04/07/2018 1:52 am  

As to david's utterly correct comment about my "fucked-up CV" and "general not-giving-a-fuckness": divine guidance, son.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 2:01 am  

Dom, you are at least familiar enough with how both Los and Erwin they present Thelema.

My point is that the Thelema espoused by Jim (and taught by his group temple of thelema) is not of the reductive-materialist or skeptical rationalist kind.

If you truly did spend any time on his forum, as your comment suggests, then I am surprised you did not pick up on this,


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ignant666
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04/07/2018 2:13 am  

It is absolutely correct that Eshelman's "Thelema", as discussed at what The Great And Powerful Los called "the fruitcake factory", appears to be straight-up 100% "Old-Fashioned Thelema Like Crowley Taught", complete with "goblins", "spooks", and grade-tests that must be passed before advancement. He appears to use the original A.'. A.'. docs and tests written by AC and Jones.

So definitely not Los-ianity/Erwin-ism, but as this site is devoted to the legacy of Aleister Crowley, and not the thoughts of these two Dunning-Kruger-afflicted buffoons, so what?

Are you, Moogplayer, here as the Skeptical Thelema Gestapo, come to chastise backsliders who are considering Gullible Thelema?


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elitemachinery
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04/07/2018 7:33 am  

@ignant666 said:

I was a bicycle messenger/drug-dealer (day job, and night and weekend job, respectively) at the time. I had spent a good deal of time on NYC’s Lower East Side, with very short hair, looking for trouble, and finding it daily.

My last couple jobs before messengering were bouncing at an illegal after-hours club called Berlin, and a legit mega-club called Danceteria.

I lived in New York (Park Slope Brooklyn 7th and 7th i think) for about 6 months in late 1984-85 and worked at a law firm in Manhattan (Penny & Edmonds) shuffling pens and paper to secretaries and law clerks. I went to Danceteria once. Maybe we crossed paths. Went to after hours a few times in Brooklyn (with family and cop friends) and in those days it was all off duty cops blowing off steam after work.

You're definitely not lazy. You can't be lazy in New York or you drown. Los Angeles is full of people who don't have jobs yet live in big houses talking about their next big deal. Probably living off allowances from rich wall street guys with jobs who live and work in New York.

Went into a PhD program in criminal justice, almost immediately got a job on a study of heroin users (i knew many), did that for 20 years, also teaching at City University of New York during that time.

Obviously very well read and intelligent. I garnered that from your posts. But a lawyer? Damn, no wonder you like to argue so much. 41 pages into this thread lol...

Since it appears i have recently retired and i kinda give zero fucks about folks imagining i am a member of a satanist sex/death cult anymore anyway, here is my Google Scholar page:

The suspenders. Ah yes i'm wearing suspenders right now too. The true test of "not-give-a-fuckery" is when u get past the age of 50 and start wearing old guy suspenders.

Nice job Travis. Another Lashtal cretin unmasked. Very brave of you. Interesting set of articles listed on your scholar page.

This is why i'm here. Because guys like Travis are no bullshit ass kicking motherfuckers.

bravo, Travis!

travis


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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04/07/2018 9:31 am  

@dom

I think we’re all interested in reductive-materialism and what it has to say . . .

Not me, matie.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posts: 3951
04/07/2018 9:50 am  

@MoogPlayer

My point is that the Thelema espoused by Jim (and taught by his group temple of thelema) is not of the reductive-materialist or skeptical rationalist kind.

Ah, I see. Because Los has declared it to a "fruitcake factory", then dom shouldn't pay any heed to anything said on there? Heruraha.net has a wide variety of threads and people who post to those threads, so perhaps dom is a little more open-minded than you?

Given your thinking, I'm surprised you don't issue a fatwa on dom as an apostate.


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ignant666
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04/07/2018 2:19 pm  

elitemachinery: Thank you for the kind words.

I was still working the door and inside security at Danceteria in late 84, so i may have been the one who got you let in. The main door guy was always a fabulous gay man (mostly Haoui or Aleph), but they would often defer to "the muscle" (ie me and some large black men) about which straight guys to let in, unless they were cute enough it just didn't matter if they were trouble. Of course you were a future porn star so you may have gotten in on the latter factor. We had a very selective door policy; if we did not think you were cool and interestingly dressed, we would not let you in.

Berlin, the after-hours i worked at, was not the kind of after-hours your cop relatives probably took you to in Brooklyn, those were usually cocaine and gambling oriented illegal bars. Berlin was a large dance club very similar to Danceteria (they were across the street from each other for a while, Berlin moved often after raids), except totally illegal- we opened at around 2am, and got busy after 4am when licensed clubs and bars had to close; we closed around noon. One of my first jobs there was wanding dudes with a metal detector and checking their guns behind a loose heating grill. The only cops that ever came in were the ones who raided us from time to time.

As a young man whose interests at the time ran heavily towards sex'n'drugs'n'rock'n'roll, and violence, working in clubs was a lot of fun. I got paid to break up fights, throw people out, and generally do things that would normally get me arrested. There were many beautiful women, endless drugs and free drinks, and lots of good bands playing every night. "Club courtesy" meant that if you worked at a club, you could get into any other club free and drink free, and also eat free at quite a lot of trendy restaurants where the staff liked to go out after work. I eventually got tired of the endless party and decided to go back to school.

Anyway, enough of this autobiographical digression.


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elitemachinery
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04/07/2018 2:47 pm  

@ignant666 I don't remember Danceteria having a door policy..but I was 19 so maybe someone liked me..it was most likely february or march of 1985 because it was warm enough to go out...i think i left in april...yes the after hours in Brooklyn had poker games in the back room and everyone was using coke..not openly but it was everywhere..bar opened after 2am...went several times..it was pretty much all cops and a few locals...probably cant do that nowadays...you obviously know New York..


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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04/07/2018 3:50 pm  

elitemachinery: See reply in "our favorite music" thread, where it is less totally OT. My youthful misdeeds have derailed this thread enough.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 8:44 pm  

Michael,

Ah, I see. Because Los has declared it to a “fruitcake factory”, then dom shouldn’t pay any heed to anything said on there? Heruraha.net has a wide variety of threads and people who post to those threads, so perhaps dom is a little more open-minded than you?

Given your thinking, I’m surprised you don’t issue a fatwa on dom as an apostate.

Given my thinking?

Earlier in this thread Dom quoted a blog post referring to Jim's forum as a fruitcake factory in support of a point about attainment and people who believe in goblins. I wonder now if Dom thoroughly read through that blog post, because he later commented favorably about the same Internet forum.

It's possible Dom missed that little detail on Los' blog, and doesn't realize that the thelema espoused and taught there is not compatible with Dom's own self proclaimed reductivist-materialist views.

By applying those same principles of reductive materialism, I'm sure Dom can certainly come to a conclusion about Jim, his forum, and even astrology, all independent of what Los or anyone else has to say.

I remain open minded to all the various paranormal and supernatural claims, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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04/07/2018 9:04 pm  

moogplayer: Like you, i too am open-minded.

I remain open-minded to all the various reductivist-materialist claims, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence.

If the writings of The Possible Magus Erwin, and The Great And Powerful Los 8=3, are the best reductivist-materialist/"Skeptical Thelema" has to offer, i am afraid their vast logical lacunae, and clear lack of the philosophical and scientific background needed to even approach this whole business of the nature of "reality", fail to convince.

In this last post, it sounds like you are agreeing with me, and Michael, that you rise again to post for the first time in four years to act as the "Skeptical Thelema" Gestapo/Ministry Of Truth, here to chide the backsliding david/dom back into Philosophical Correctness.

Gullible Thelema FTW! Cowans of the world, unite your inner contradictions! You have nothing to lose but your belief in quotidian "reality"!


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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04/07/2018 11:44 pm  

@MoogPlayer

"I remain open minded to all the various paranormal and supernatural claims, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence."

There's all sorts of things which I accept without seeing any "scientific evidence". For instance, I act on the basis that we have free will, though I'm not aware of any "scientic evidence" to back up my assumption.

I'm a devotee of Advaita Vedanta, and practise atma vichara several times a day. I'm not aware of any "scientic evidence" to establish the validity or otherwise of Advaita Vedanta, but it's not something that I worry my pretty little head about too much.

If you want to make "scientific evidence" the cornerstone of your life then that's just fine and dandy; it's simply not the basis upon which I operate, and have operated for many years. This is something which I used to discuss on these boards many years ago with that nice young man Los.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 11:47 pm  

Yes well comments like this just remind me why I don't post here very often if at all. It's no less a fruitcake factory with people making comments like this:

I remain open-minded to all the various reductivist-materialist claims, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence.

All the advances of the modern world are based upon knowledge derived from a naturalistic view of science and of reality. If space flight, cures for disease, advances in physics and computer technology are not enough evidence for you then I don't know what to say.

If the writings of The Possible Magus Erwin, and The Great And Powerful Los 8=3, are the best reductivist-materialist/”Skeptical Thelema” has to offer

Los and Erwin do not write about reductivist-materialism. They write about thelema. If you don't like what they write, then you might consider starting your own blog, full of essays where you explain the concepts of thelema in such fine detail.

clear lack of the philosophical and scientific background needed

I don't know just how long ago you were in school, but metaphysical naturalism, and methodological naturalism, are both forms of philosophy currently being taught in schools.


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MoogPlayer
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04/07/2018 11:54 pm  

it’s simply not the basis upon which I operate

I doubt that very much. You are typing on a computer right now, connected to the internet. Just how do you think these things work?


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dom
 dom
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05/07/2018 12:05 am  

@moogplayer

who appears to be plagued with confusion

My point is that the Thelema espoused by Jim (and taught by his group temple of thelema) is not of the reductive-materialist or skeptical rationalist kind.

No sh1t.

Yes I know.

If you truly did spend any time on his forum, as your comment suggests, then I am surprised you did not pick up on this,

I'm wondering why Los exited the discussion when Arthur Emerson took apart the chair-personality analogy and the essay about Crowley and the laws of logic as a codification of thought. The lad bailed. That strongly suggests he has difficulty with admitting to his mistakes which isn't a good trait for someone who sets himself up as a teacher of Thelema or an unconventional version. No vindictiveness here , just wanted clarity. Didn't get it as of yet.


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ignant666
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05/07/2018 12:06 am  

moogplayer: If you imagine the experimental and technological pragmatics you mention, and the various scientific models rooted in those pragmatics, provide "scientific evidence" of "the various reductivist-materialist claims" about the nature of "reality", you are a sadly confused person.

Can you cite some sources in reputable peer-reviewed journals for these outlandish claims?

As to "just how long ago in school", i was teaching at the university level last time i was in school, after getting a JD, MA, and PhD.

I bow to your no doubt superior education, but as a retired research scientist, who lived off very competitive US Federal research grants for 20 years, i do actually have some idea what i am talking about. I posted my publications, and the citation-counts according to Google Scholar of those publications, above.

You are welcome to do the same: show and tell, son.

Then i might take you seriously as someone able to intelligently discuss science, and what it might tell us about "reality"


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 1:01 am  

Ignant666,

Your appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. And you have failed to offer any convincing argument against metaphysical naturalism of methodological naturalism.

Any scientific research you would have been a part of, worked upon the principles of methodological naturalism. You accept that it worked in the lab, regardless about whatever beliefs you hold outside of a naturalistic world view.

Ben Carson is a brain surgeon, but that didn't really stop him from claiming that earth is only a few thousand years old.


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dom
 dom
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05/07/2018 1:08 am  

@moogplayer

I’m surprised to see you mention Jim in this regard because it is specifically mentioned on Los’ blog (from the very blog post that you quoted earlier) what a ‘fruitcake factory’ heruraha.net is. Jim is known for banning and deleting many of the threads over the years that have attempted to ask the very same questions that you are raising here in this thread; about the nature of attainment, and about the nature of entities in particular.
Not everybody is always as they seem.

Have you read every page of this thread or...hah...just the first 20 pages?

Anyway Jim deleted a very small amount of threads on his forum because the reductive-materialism threads just became a generally annoying and empty but emotionally-charged Black Hole that ended all debate and any opportunity for traditional communal spiritual advice.

Los's remark about it being a "fruitcake factory" full of 'gullible religionists' is actually inaccurate. He liked to use the example of a few wacky highly-uneducated individuals with nutty claims (e.g. the guy who said that a demon fired a gun at him...something like that) and then he tarred everyone with the same brush. That's not good science. I know for I was there for every post.

Sure, Jim takes it as a given that rituals effect change but hey, so did AC if you know anything about his diaries and bio. This image of Jim as a wacky cult leader totally out of touch with reality is bullshit.

Personally I am almost convinced that there is something in astrology but that's for another day.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 1:12 am  

Dom,

I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about because I have not followed or read on that forum for many years now.

I agree it's not a very desirable personality trait in anyone, regardless of whether they view themselves as a teacher (which I am not sure Los does or doesn't, as he seems to just be some guy that likes to write about thelema).

I can imagine either that he doesn't feel he made a mistake, being just a difference in opinion, or that he just didn't care to continue discussing it in a place that he deemed to be a fruitcake factory.


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dom
 dom
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05/07/2018 1:29 am  

@moogplayer who said

Dom,
I don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about because I have not followed or read on that forum for many years now

.
Well I'm telling you what happened.

I can imagine are that he doesn’t feel he made a mistake, being just a difference in opinion, or that he just didn’t care to continue discussing it in a place that he deemed to be a fruitcake factory

Really? Maybe weigh the situation up a bit better for yourself. Use analysis.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 1:36 am  

Dom,

The claims that Jim has made over the years on that forum are just as ridiculous as anyone claiming a demon pointed a gun at them. He apparently believes himself to be in contact with secret chiefs. Not in a figurative metaphorical way either. I mean something like what you referred to earlier as believing in goblins.

I remember there was a thread about this once, but Jim enacted a "moratorium" (his words) against any topic that is even slightly critical of spiritualism and deleted them all.

It is his group, he can do what he wants. But it seems hypocritical of you to come here and smear other occultists for believing in goblins and magic powers and then prop up this Jim guy like he isn't just as batty. Look through his forum and read about his old posts on reincarnation, his claims of levitation, etc.

You also seemed to criticize magical orders whose framework depends upon judging the progress of an initiate by magical tasks. That is precisely the type of organization that temple of thelema claims to be according to their website.

Ok, so you are aware. I will now return to obscurity where I might emerge to post from time to time, but not likely. The conversation doesn't seem to have gone anywhere in four years.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 1:50 am  

Dom,

If you didn't like Los' conclusions in his essay, or what he had to say about them, try writing your own essay expressing whatever you'd like to say about that particular topic. Or don't.

Do what thou wilt.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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05/07/2018 2:14 am  

Reductive Materialism
The view that only the material world (matter) is truly real, and that all processes and realities observed in the universe can be explained by reducing them down to their most basic scientific components, e.g., atoms, molecules, and everything else thought to make up what we know as "matter." For example, a reductive materialist would view the miraculous and unexpected healing of a supposedly terminal cancer patient as a random coincidence of solely biological and physiological processes in the person's body. While, on the other hand, some might view the healing as stemming from factors contributing to the biological factors, e.g., prayer or meditation.

=============================================================
Hello all,

I have just been catching up with this thread as I have been "v" merging and there is many forks to turn to spoons as such.

Still reading through it but something caught my overactive mind.
So In reference to the above short explanation of ReduMat. (reduction materialism

to the miraculous healing of terminal : the above gives two options
1, random coincidence of solely biological and physiological processes in the person's body
2,stemming from factors contributing to the biological factors, e.g., prayer or meditation

what if the answer is both and the 1st one is only seemingly random.

a healing of a degraded compound would be successful from a current that can change the state of the degraded compound from it's terminal state to a state of regeneration. The terminal state would have to be receptive in order for it's atoms to meld instead of reflect the incoming current.

So in that way the healing is a biological and physiological process that is SEEMINGLY random.

the word random

proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern:
the random selection of numbers.

breaking that down further

ra' of the creative positive spark
ran -
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ran
move quickly with haste
An - One in a weakened sense
Do - carry out perform
Dom
Domain
Deō Optimō Maximō GOD

So I see the word random as a spark in a weakened state (current) that Moves quickly with haste performed in the domain of god (the abyss) too quickly to "see"
random may look kaotic when looked at from outside because you only "see" the visual but that is just how it seems until you "break it down"

just because you can't see a pattern and do not know a pattern because you can't see it does not mean it does not exist, it does mean that YOU can't see it.

Just over 100 years ago we did not know about electrons and protons. It does not mean they didn't exist before then it just means that we didn't know, we did not have the knowledge of.

So to me this theory should be thrown out with the rest because we simply do not know everything. How do we know what we can and can't reduce to matter if we don't know

another personal analogy. I descend from a faery - in today's common reality Faeries do not exist except in fairy tales and legends. Yet not just in legend we have a tangible visible, knowable historical link to this actually occurring - https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/mysterious-fairy-flag-clan-macleod-and-its-legendary-protective-powers-020884

1, redumat theory Faeries do not exist in matter
2 truth fact O'really ? 🙂 how do we/you know faeries do not exist?

The healing current, the aqua vitae is made up of matter/antimatter. Particles, colour both visible and invisible. It exists therefore it is creation therefore matter.
anti matter is a reflection of matter therefore a part of matter

The operative word in the redumat theory is "thought"

"reducing them down to their most basic scientific components, e.g., atoms, molecules, and everything else thought to make up what we know as "matter."

conclusion

we do not know enough about our universe for this redumat theory to exist stably and to make any conclusions from a redumat point of view would be a potential falsehood.

Off to read more posts I've missed in this thread.. soon to find this post is foolish 🙂
Aqua


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Shiva
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05/07/2018 2:14 am  

Moog: It is a little sad to see that this thread has gone on for so long,

Uh-oh! He is not the master of the Law of Sorrow (dhukkha).
We are having fun, and you are (a little) sad.
This tells me/"us" that you are displeased with our actions.

The idea that you guys would be obsessing over someone you have never met and don’t know is just sort of weird if you ask me.

Really? I don't remember anyone asking you.

How many of you guys have kept blogs where you write out your views on Thelema so clearly, and easily accessible to the reader?

I have. That's one! But I don't use blogs, I use websites. Los said bad things about one of my sites. Mainly he didn't like the animations and the soundtrack (which was too loud), he having no volume control.

How many people have you influenced to think about Thelema?

Argue not, convert not. What are you talking/writing about? Evangelistic Thelema? Soapbox Samadhi?

If you don’t like what someone else is doing, then try to do better.

You might take your own advice and shovel it.

I don’t understand.

Then you obviously are not an 8*=3[]. How did you gain access to this thread?

Why don’t you become engaged in trying to attain whatever it is you are after?

I am retired now. I am not "after" anything.

Dom: I think we’re all interested in reductive-materialism

"We?" "All?" Speak for yourself John, er, Dom.

Ig: 40 pages not of “obsessing over someone you have never met and don’t know”, but of laughing at the biggest horse’s ass in current Thelema, a persona we know all too well.

Yes, that is my impression of what we are doing.

Ig: Are you, Moogplayer, here as the Skeptical Thelema Gestapo, come to chastise backsliders who are considering Gullible Thelema?

He is here to give us a bad time because we are (in his opinion) being "bad." It's because we know how to Strike Hard and Low. Some wimpy folk might get distressed over that.

This is the fastest moving thread here in months. Years? Maybe a Yuga?
So I'll probably have to double post to catch up with all the fun, um ecstasy.


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Shiva
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05/07/2018 2:37 am  

The Heru... site is actually a teaching network for the students of their Order; the public is allowed to sit in, and even interact & post, but one must be careful (and not carefree at all) or they'll get warnings in BOLD RED CAPITALS and some death symbol gets added to your resume. Three WARNING/symbols and you're OUT ... at the old ball game.

I simply left after earning Two WARNING/Death Symbols.

Mayet: The view that only the material world (matter) is truly real, and that all processes and realities observed in the universe can be explained by reducing them down to their most basic scientific components,

But in the case of us humans, that reduction would be the Monad (the Point ... at Kether). He who reduces the Universe to matter is playing in the dirt.

I don't think I want to play dirty, so I'll have to avoid or destroy Reductionism. Don't get the wrong idea, I can still dig a hole, if necessary, but I know how to wash my hands and go on to the holier place.

Just over 100 years ago we did not know about electrons and protons. It does not mean they didn’t exist before then

Batteries (used for electroplating vases and urns) were found in the dumps of Babylon. I have photos (proof). They might not have known about electrons, but they knew how to put a copper rod in a clay pot filled with acid, and then use the electricity to bond gold to fused dirt (porcelain or clay or whatever).

SUMMARY: Well, yes, everything can be reduced to matter. After all, Malkuth is where all the upper spheres come home to roost. That doesn't mean any given sphere doesn't have it's own qualities, or that it's the idiotic illusion of some dippy, air-headed clown.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 3:15 am  

Batteries (used for electroplating vases and urns) were found in the dumps of Babylon. I have photos (proof). They might not have known about electrons, but they knew how to put a copper rod in a clay pot filled with acid, and then use the electricity to bond gold to fused dirt (porcelain or clay or whatever).

From wiki: König himself seems to have been mistaken on the nature of the objects he thought were electroplated. They were apparently fire-gilded (with mercury). Paul Craddock of the British Museum said "The examples we see from this region and era are conventional gold plating and mercury gilding. There’s never been any irrefutable evidence to support the electroplating theory".[3]

David A. Scott, senior scientist at the Getty Conservation Institute and head of its Museum Research Laboratory, wrote that "There is a natural tendency for writers dealing with chemical technology to envisage these unique ancient objects of two thousand years ago as electroplating accessories (Foley 1977). but this is clearly untenable, for there is absolutely no evidence for electroplating in this region at the time."[10]


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 Anonymous
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05/07/2018 4:56 am  

Shiva

one of the first changes I made with the 22 produced a battery formula, I only realised that when someone else looked at my work and said ooh that is a truck battery... So yes it was around 2000 years ago .. the beginning of the harness


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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05/07/2018 6:51 pm  

moogplayer: apologize for this belated reply, but i had five houseguests for the 4th of July and was unable to do so before now.

Your appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

You do not understand what is meant by the informal fallacy "appeal to authority", nor do you appear to understand what a logical fallacy is.

Pointing out that i am in fact a scientist with a verifiable history of doing science for decades is not an "appeal to authority"; it is a simple statement of fact, that, as The Great And Powerful Los 8=3 might put it, has no "explanatory power". You too are welcome to produce your credentials in this area, but have chosen not to.

When you pull the "B-b-b-ut science supports my views!", you in fact are doing the thing you accuse me of: appealing to authority (science) because you imagine that "science" establishes that you are right about the matter under discussion.

Your thinking about what we are discussing is sloppy, and appears to conflate two different propositions (while declining to offer any evidence whatever for either):

a) quotidian reality is so real and/or

b) modern science is founded upon the "belief" that quotidian reality is real, because (you imagine) pragmatics, and model building, would be impossible, unless one first decided that the model not only is sufficiently complete to allow pragmatics/empiricism to proceed, but is in fact a complete picture of this "reality" you imagine you experience.

That you imagine that science proceeds based on "beliefs" is simply sad.

And you have failed to offer any convincing argument against metaphysical naturalism of methodological naturalism.

Why should i? The burden of proof is on you, pal.

Please produce peer-reviewed citations from reputable journals reaching conclusions, or providing evidence as to, either "a" or "b" above.

I know you can't, because there are no such papers. It should be easy for you, if the thing(s) you say are correct.

Any scientific research you would have been a part of, worked upon the principles of methodological naturalism. You accept that it worked in the lab, regardless about whatever beliefs you hold outside of a naturalistic world view.

Again, you are well out of your depth here if you imagine that there are scientific studies that have something to do with "methodological naturalism", or beliefs (as you put it) about "a naturalistic worldview". I am curious as to what you imagine a not-naturalist world view might mean.

Clue: Empiricism, and use of models to explain data, does not depend on the metaphysical/philosophical underpinnings ("methodological naturalism") you imagine it must. Models need to be good enough to encompass the existing data. They do not purport to explain this "reality" you are so obsessed with.


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ignant666
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05/07/2018 7:35 pm  

Apologies for double post, but i want to toss moogplayer a lifeline before he drowns:

I assume a person who has been in school as recently as you might be familiar with Karl Popper, and his somewhat influential Logic of Scientific Discovery? Note that the initials of this book, generally considered the most influential methodological work of the 20th century, are "L.S.D.".

Here is a kinda famous quote from that book:

A naturalistic methodology (sometimes called an "inductive theory of science") has its value, no doubt.... I reject the naturalistic view: It is uncritical. [emphasis added] Its upholders fail to notice that whenever they believe to have discovered a fact, they have only proposed a convention. Hence the convention is liable to turn into a dogma. This criticism of the naturalistic view applies not only to its criterion of meaning, but also to its idea of science, and consequently to its idea of empirical method.


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dom
 dom
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05/07/2018 8:38 pm  

@moogplayer

Dom,
... Jim... apparently believes himself to be in contact with secret chiefs. Not in a figurative metaphorical way either. I mean something like what you referred to earlier as believing in goblins.

Cool for him. I like Jim. I used to read those posts daily for years. I still do. You're not telling me anything that I don't know.

I remember there was a thread about this once, but Jim enacted a “moratorium” (his words) against any topic that is even slightly critical of spiritualism and deleted them all.

So what?

It is his group, he can do what he wants. But it seems hypocritical of you

Get over your perceived perception of me as a hypocrite.

to come here and smear other occultists for believing in goblins and magic powers and then prop up this Jim guy like he isn’t just as batty

I was criticised for being Los's sock-puppet. My then level of education and the way I approached problems and propositions ensured that there was truth in that statement ....I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now, I hereby hand you the Los Erwin sock-puppet mantle.

. Look through his forum and read about his old posts on reincarnation, his claims of levitation, etc.

Have you ever been in an asana for over an hour whilst doing AC's recommended pranyayama work? That was Jim's situation in which he apparently found himself some inches off the ground. Incidentally Los and Erwin never bothered to experiment with the yogic practices that AC recommended. Interesting that isn't it? I doubt that you yourself have never been arsed to do the work either?

At this point I am actually wondering if Moogplayer is Los under a different forum-name.

You also seemed to criticize magical orders whose framework depends upon judging the progress of an initiate by magical tasks. That is precisely the type of organization that temple of thelema claims to be according to their website.
Ok, so you are aware. I will now return to obscurity where I might emerge to post from time to time, but not likely. The conversation doesn’t seem to have gone anywhere in four years.

Farewell!


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 8:41 pm  

Ignant666,

I did not write that science establishes that we live only in a material universe, just that the current model of scientific investigation supports this naturalistic view of reality. It has produced results consistent with this model.

I would disagree with you and comment that the burden of proof is on the people who claim that there is something else to this universe besides the material and the naturalistic explanation of it.

The idea that we live in a material universe can be falsified. But it is the best explanation we have for the reality we are living in. If you can provide a better explanation and a suggest a method for how we might test your hypothesis then go ahead. I am sure your Nobel prize awaits you.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 9:01 pm  

That was Jim’s situation in which he apparently found himself some inches off the ground.

I don't care if he was standing in his head singing the star spangled banner, it's crazy talk. That is just one odd ball claim he made over the years. Like his claims of past lives and reincarnation, or writing in his book 776 that he was posessed by the spirit of Thoth. Also, sane people do not claim to be in contact with discarnate secret chiefs.

You say he is not a whacko cult leader. But if his followers believe that astral secret chiefs are in telepathic contact with him or that he derives any kind of authority from these discarnate secret chiefs, well that pretty much sounds like a cult to me.


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arthuremerson
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05/07/2018 9:07 pm  

@moogplayer

I would disagree with you and comment that the burden of proof is on the people who claim that there is something else to this universe besides the material and the naturalistic explanation of it.

The notion that the default philosophical standpoint is "naturalism" and that the burden is on everyone else to falsify it betrays a pretty glaring misunderstanding of the philosophical landscape. Not to mention dialectical interplay in general. I'm not sure what naturalism means to you. In the quote above you seem to suggest that the only things that exist are explanations, but that can't be right. I assume you take it to mean something like this: everything can be explained by a first-order reduction to material substance/causation. Unfortunately there are deep problems for this kind of view. Three things that pose problems for the view that readily come to mind are the objects that mathematics makes appeal to (numbers, sets, etc.), qualia, and modality (possibility/necessity). Naturalist views have a very difficult time dealing with these things satisfactorily.

One ought also, it might be worth mentioning, tread carefully when inferring to the best explanation.

Best,
æ


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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05/07/2018 9:10 pm  

I did not write that science establishes that we live only in a material universe, just that the current model of scientific investigation supports this naturalistic view of reality.

The problem is, your belief is incorrect. I have shown that the most influential methodological work of the 20th century, Popper's L.S.D., explicitly rejects a "naturalistic view of reality". Popper's work re-defined what science does, and how we seek to do science.

What do you think it means to falsify the null hypothesis? Why do you think we do this?


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dom
 dom
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05/07/2018 9:12 pm  

I don’t care. That is just one odd ball claim he made over the years. Like his claims of past lives and reincarnation, or writing in his book 776 that he was posessed by the spirit of Thoth. Sane people do not claim to be in contact with discrnate secret chiefs.

The guy who started Thelema said he was Levi in a past life. How about that?
Same guy said Aiwass dictated a book to him and that an entity known as Lam contacted him. He also claimed that he helped Nueberg to become possessed by Mercury Himself and so on and so forth. Jim is a reasonably educated and open minded guy.


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MoogPlayer
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05/07/2018 9:15 pm  

The guy who started Thelema said

The same guy was also a drug addict and a con artist. Also could have been insane. Is Crowley some kind of authority now?

Jim is absolutely not open minded. No being educated doesn't matter, there are educated people who still believe the earth is only 7000 years old for whatever reason. Ask Jim how open minded he is to the idea that he is not in contact with secret chiefs, you will see how open minded he really is.


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arthuremerson
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05/07/2018 9:17 pm  

The school of obstinate Thelema shows again how interested it is in honest, open, and nuanced discourse. Move along.


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ignant666
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05/07/2018 9:23 pm  

Yes, arthur, it is indeed remarkable how utterly ignorant these self-styled apostles of "science" are about actual science, just as it is impressive how utterly incapable of formulating coherent logical arguments they are, in that they fancy themselves to be beacons of reason illuminating our superstitious darkness.

Perhaps somewhere there is an advocate of "Skeptical Thelema" who is able to do something besides demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect in action?

Or perhaps not.


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