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ignant666
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david: A (former?) "Skeptic" engaged in Bible-quoting?! I never thought i would live to see the day! S.'. H.'. Fra. & "Phallus Of A Goat" Los used to ridicule me for doing the same. As to your query, my understanding is that the words about creating talismans for "Finding a Great Treasure" in various grimoires refer to what our much-esteemed pal the Goat-Phallus might call "terrestrial" treasure, ie physical things like cash or gold or something we can exchange for goods or services.

Dis: [first post] Yes; [second post] Really? Would love to see the video clips! Welcome to lashtal, BTW, as i don't recall seeing you post here before today.


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Dis
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Does a self deprecating joke count as egoless-ness? Maybe that teenagers rashly taken MoT oath is finally kicking in!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE37fY6df34


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ignant666
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Dis: Thought there was a good chance this was some sort of UK joke that flew over my Yankee head. If you are correct as to the source of young david's new cognomen, yet another data point as to how old david really is, unless he may claim to have been watching kids' TV in the '90s while in his 20s (the minimum age he must have been then to be "middle-aged" now, as "dom" has claimed (unlike the earlier & clearly very young "david" persona)).


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dom
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@ignant666

david: A (former?) “Skeptic” engaged in Bible-quoting?! I never thought i would live to see the day! S.’. H.’. Fra. & “Phallus Of A Goat” Los used to ridicule me for doing the same. As to your query, my understanding is that the words about creating talismans for “Finding a Great Treasure” in various grimoires refer to what our much-esteemed pal the Goat-Phallus might call “terrestrial” treasure, ie physical things like cash or gold or something we can exchange for goods or services.

How do you know it relates to terrestrial treasure? Which grimoires are you talking about? Most of that stuff appears to be open to interpretation when it comes to what Demons can grant us. More on such things from Book 4;

We shall treat of Dhyana as a result rather than as a method. Up to this point ancient authorities have been fairly reliable guides, except with regard to their crabbed ethics; but when they get on the subject of results of meditation, they completely lose their heads.

They exhaust the possibilities of poetry to declare what is demonstrably untrue. For example, we find in the Shiva Sanhita that "he who daily contemplates on this lotus of the heart is eagerly desired by the daughters of Gods, has clairaudience, clairvoyance, and can walk in the air." Another person "can make gold, discover medicine for disease, and see hidden treasures." All this is filth. What is the curse upon religion that its tenets must always be associated with every kind of extravagance and falsehood?

There is one exception; it is the A.'.A.'., whose members are extremely careful to make no statement at all that cannot be verified in the usual manner; or where this is not easy, at least avoid anything like a dogmatic statement. In Their second book of practical instruction, Liber O, occur these words:

"By doing certain things certain results will follow. Students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."

Those golden words!

@Dis

who. with his extraordinary acid wit made the observation as follows

Hey, Dom, didn’t we have a kids tv show together?

No you are mistaken. I co-hosted the obscure Saturday morning show known as Jamie and his magic multi-value logic time-travelling air-balloon with Arthur Emerson.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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david: As to whether the "treasure" one might hope to find with a suitably charged talisman is the sort of "treasure in heaven" that Matthew speaks of in the Gospel passage you cite, or what i believe you foreigners call "dosh", as i suggested, here is the list of talismans from chapter 16, "To Find and Take Possession of All Kinds of Treasures", of The Book Of The Sacred Magic Of Abramelin The Mage. Number 3, "For a great treasure", was found in AC's pocket at his death:

To find and take possession of all kinds of Treasures, provided that they be not at all (Magically) guarded.
(1) For Treasure of Silver (or Silver Money).
(2) For Gold Money.
(3) For a great Treasure.
(4) For a small Treasure.
(5) For an unguarded Treasure.
(6) For Copper Money.
(7) For Gold in Ingots.
(8) For Silver in Ingots.
(9) For jewels.
(10) For Ancient Medals (and Coins).
(11) For a Treasure hidden by a particular Person.
(12) For Pearls.
(13) For Diamonds.
(14) For Rubies.
(15) For Balassius Rubies.
(16) For Emeralds.
(17) For worked Gold.
(18) For Silver Plate.
(19) For Statues.
(20) For Specimens of Ancient Art.

See http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/abr/index.htm


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Shiva
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Dom: Great treasure? What? Physical treasure that one can bury in a field or the types of treasures that Christ spoke of which moth nor rust can corrupt?

Insects and oxidation play no part in this matter. This is probably in reference to the famous Abramelin talisman, "For a Great Treasure." It was found under AC's pillow (that's the way I heard it) after his death. His great book of Abramelin Talismans was eventually sent by Yorke to Germer, and then "liberated" (years later) by Solar Lodge, who found the collection intact, save for the aforesaid talisman that was "retained" by Yorke (and used to build a mighty collection of rare books and manuscripts). Solar Lodge restored the missing talisman, an account of evocation performed by yours truly, and all the details are in the Inside Solar Lodge book.

Interestingly, we never used that talisman. However, from that time (of evocation) on, we had virtually unlimited capital.

We did use other talismans. Whatever outcome was required is what came to be true - in every case.

Ooky-spooky, eh? Yeah, believe it or don't.

You can cite and assemble all those other "lesser" grimoires, but the Grand-daddy of them all is Abramelin with his magic squares writ on parchment with India ink and in Enochian characters.

Switching topic: We are all familiar with the 8=3 equation and grade, with its appended degree-circle and sephira square. That sephira is Binah, realm of intuition and understanding, but a "no-mind" policy is in effect. Any dude or dame can claim that grade SIMPLY BY TAKING THE OATH. The key (and final) phrase of that Oath is "I will interpret all phenomena as a particular dealing of God with my Soul."

"Interpret" implies that something will happen, and then the mind (ego) will step in and "translate" that happening. Of course, "God" must be the instigator, and "Soul" must be the personal/impersonal recipient. A "phenomena" is an unusual occurrence. The terms "God" and "Soul" are subject to substitution and endless debate. Basically, the Oath binds you to A RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY UNUSUAL EVENTS IN YOUR LIFE. This is in accordance with folks who say, "If it happens out there, then it happens in here."

The title Master of the Temple was first used by the Knights Templar, when the head knight at Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was recognized by this Title. As it comes down to us today, via the A.'.A.'. designation, it implies Mastery over one's Temple, which is his/her/your body and consciousness.

Many people mistakenly think that this Crossing of the Abyss is a permanent annihilation of one's ego. Well, it is ... AT THAT LEVEL. Before Samadhi, chop wood, carry water, and display an unpleasant, condescending ego. After Samadhi, chop wood, carry water, and display an unpleasant, condescending ego. "A Magister is only a Magister when operating in his/her light body."

It has always been my position to accept anyone's claim of 8=3, and to treat them accordingly after that. "Accordingly" means that they're on their own, fully self-contained, and they will sink or swim by their own efforts. At this advanced stage of evolution, we should expect said Magister to interface with others under his/her own steam and insight, and references/quotes/scenarios from other are of no concern.

"It may be that yonder Los is a king. If so, you can't hurt him, so strike fast and accurately." (modified paraphrase excerpt).


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dom
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@ignant666 and Shiva

For a great treasure”, was found in AC’s pocket at his death:"

This is on par with the medieval Vatican authorities claiming they had St Paul's femur bone in a box or whatever.

Where's the solid evidence?

That quote from Book 4 that I used elsewhere is also relevant here unfortunately;

Book 4 is more on the same;

The Mohammedan insists that God is, and did really send Gabriel with messages for Mohammed: but all others contradict him. And from the nature of the case proof is impossible.

The lack of proof has been so severely felt by Christianity (and in a much less degree by Islam) that fresh miracles have been manufactured almost daily to support the tottering structure

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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arthuremerson
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Arthur yes, seeing as you assumed the premise I would like you to start a new thread somewhere along the lines of (your words) “(Why) Los’s essays/posts are rife with terrible arguments, specious textual analysis, and the battering (of low hanging fruits). As follows…..”

If I may also select some of Los’s blog essays for you to shoot holes into as follows;
[...]
Perhaps you could gather some philosophy undergraduates to join in.

David, I really haven't the time to oblige you in this manner, especially in the case of responding to each of Los's essays you've provided. Even if I had the time to, I wouldn't want to, for your sake. You are much better served by critically reading Los and seeing for yourself that my generalization of his work is not a hasty one- I have read those essays. My remarks as well as those of ignant666, jamie, and the_real_simon_iff (sorry if I've left anyone out, it's very late), ought to be sufficient examples of how this is done. If you can't glean some kind of methodology from those, I reiterate my suggestion that you get yourself into a course on basic reasoning. If you apply yourself in earnest and internalize the material, you'll have a good set of tools for approaching Los's work critically.

As for undergraduates, the overwhelming majority of them have never heard of Crowley. Apart from busying themselves with far more compelling arguments than Los's, they are busy studying, drinking, or screwing. If our little corner of the internet holds any interest for them, they'll find their way here on their own.


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Michael Staley
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@dom

This is on par with the medieval Vatican authorities claiming they had St Paul’s femur bone in a box or whatever.

No, it's not. It was found by Gerald Yorke. I have come across reference to it in a letter, in amongst I think the collection of letters he wrote to C.S. Jones in 1948/49. I'll try and dig it out for you.


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dom
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I mean even if I asked for photographic evidence and someone reproduced "it" I still wouldn't be convinced. Would you?

A reference in a letter? Sounds like some christian claiming that St Paul or whoever wrote about meeting Jesus's brother so therefore yeah, I'm a believer.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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@dom

I mean even if I asked for photographic evidence and someone reproduced “it” I still wouldn’t be convinced. Would you?

A reference in a letter? Sounds like some christian claiming that St Paul or whoever wrote about meeting Jesus’s brother so therefore yeah, I’m a believer.

I've researched the Yorke-Jones correspondence for many years now, and have come to regard Yorke as a credible witness. Thus when he says he found it, that's good enough for me. The fact that it's not good enough for you is your problem; I don't give a toss whether you believe it or not.

What I find so extraordinary is your incredulity that Crowley should have had a talisman in his possession when he died. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? He was an occultist, for God's sake, who clearly continued to believe in the efficacy of sexual magic - Yorke said that the talisman had the marks of repeated consecrations.

Every now and then I forget how futile it is discussing anything with the wilfully blind. Thank you for reminding me.


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ignant666
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Yes, Michael, david doesn't seem to like the evidence here very much. So much for his new-found critical thinking, when it conflicts with his preconceptions ("fancy pictures")!

The problem with david's feeble attempt at argument here is that, in his attempt to come up with a "Super-Gotcha" reductio ad absurdum analogy, he has, instead, come up with a pretty darn good analogy here, in spite of himself.

Symonds, who saw AC regularly in his last days, and attended his funeral, says the talisman "For a great treasure" was under his pillow (p. 454, The Great Beast). Kaczynski says it was in his pocket, along with a letter, dated September 10, 1939, from the Director of Naval Intelligence asking AC to meet with him (p. 548, Perdurabo). That's a tad more specific, and detailed, than the New Testament passage david refers to with his incoherent "some christian claiming that St Paul or whoever wrote about meeting Jesus’s brother".

However, anyone who owns a Bible (hopefully all who post here, given how central the Bible was to AC's life and work), or who is able to type Galatians 1:19 into a search-engine, can verify that Paul (an unquestionably real historical figure who is generally considered to have actually written the Epistles, including Galatians) did indeed say he saw "James the Lord's brother" in Jerusalem. That "St Paul or whoever wrote about meeting Jesus’s brother" is just unquestionably true- he did write that. What he meant by the word translated "brother", and whether he meant "sibling" (or perhaps "male relative close to the same age" or "devoted follower" etc) is certainly the subject of debate.

So yes, david, saying that AC had an Abramelin talisman "For a great treasure" on or near his person at his death is like saying Paul wrote about meeting James- all the evidence we have says both are correct.

Unlike the events in the Epistles, these are not events that are lost in the mists of time- I know 1947 seems like a very long time ago to someone your age, david, but it's really not that long ago- my mother was 14 then, for example.


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dom
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Wait are we talking about a talisman he used or a talisman that he magically manifested out if thin air?

Are our wires crossed here?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Huh? Your question is confusing- who suggested that any talismans "magically manifested out if [proofread, david!] thin air"?

We have been discussing a piece of "terrestrial" parchment or paper, with talisman number 3, "For a great treasure", from the Abramelin chapter i quoted in full above, in Enochian characters written in India ink, and encrusted with AC's dried semen, that every piece of evidence available suggests was found on or near AC's person at his death.

No one is suggesting that this talisman worked very well, in case that is what you asking. The fact that AC died a bankrupt indicates that it didn't. Apparently, the Solar Lodge had better luck with their reproduction of this talisman than AC had with the original, according to Shiva's excellent post above. More evidence that the Solar Lodge was the best implementation of Thelema and AC's work so far, including during his lifetime?

I admit i may have set S.'. H.'. Fra. "Hand Of A Hanged Man" Los an unfair test- AC's "power to make and 'charge' talismans" that work as reliably as "scientific instruments of precision" might be questioned by reasonable people. He certainly claimed he could do this, and appears to have believed it.


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dom
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@ignant666

Oh right I see. I thought Shiva was saying that they found some piece of pure golden "treasure" medallion on AC that he had manifested out of thin air via evocation. Haha I thought we were going down the Joseph Smith route then.

Yeah so what? He had a talismanic parchment on him, yeah no big deal there as anyone can make nice patterns on piece of paper.

The issue (pun intended) is that he was able to achieve perfect success in evocation/talismans due to being 8=3?

Ok, well I guess he never did that either. Did he?

Are we OT by the way?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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The topic here seems to oscillate between making fun of S.'. H.'. Fra. "A Ram's Horns" Los' sad self-delusion that he is a Secret Chief, and trying to teach you to reason, with many digressions, so, more or less yes, david, we are as OT as this thread can be at this point.

If you read Shiva's post as you say you did, i would suggest maybe refraining from accusing others of not understanding what you, or the "Goat-Phallus", have written because of a lack of reading comprehension ability.

Anyone who read Shiva's clear and well-written post, and understood it as you say you did, has serious problems in this area.


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Michael Staley
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@dom

Wait are we talking about a talisman he used or a talisman that he magically manifested out if thin air?

Are our wires crossed here?

Where in Shiva's post was there any suggestion that the talisman was "magically manifested out of thin air" ??? So what made you jump to the conclusion you did ???


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dom
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Where in Shiva’s post was there any suggestion that the talisman was “magically manifested out of thin air” ??? So what made you jump to the conclusion you did ???

Probably due to reading posts during my tea break in work. However...

Insects and oxidation play no part in this matter. This is probably in reference to the famous Abramelin talisman, “For a Great Treasure.” It was found under AC’s pillow (that’s the way I heard it) after his death

I didn't know what the "Abramelin talisman" was. I mistakenly thought that that Abraham Talisman was the treasure that AC discovered by evocation.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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david: More evidence that you have some serious issues in the area of reading comprehension!!

So, in readings AC's Confessions a hundred or more times, you never noticed any references to Abramelin, or talismans?

Next read, pay particular attention to pages 18, 178, 182, 184, 195, 337, 359, 470, 504, 512, 518, 529, 530, 546, 548,588, and 589, although i recall the Abramelin material being referenced a lot more than the 17 times the index mentions.

Why do you think AC designated Boleskine House as the Thelemic kiblah? You don't know much about AC, do you? You clearly have never read the Confessions even once.


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dom
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Are you trying to wind me up?

You think I never heard of Abramelin and I don't know what a talisman is? I've charged many a talisman in my time and I once owned a copy of the Abramelin book. How about you sort out your own reading comprehension issues. We were talking about magically discovering treasure, it was a simple misunderstanding. I thought Shiva knew some specific fact about that that I had missed.

I feel like I'm babysitting a child here.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Probably due to reading posts during my tea break in work. However…

It's nice to know that you are committed to taking the conversation(s) seriously, david/dom, and giving the matters under discussion a due and diligent portion of your attention as they justly deserve & weighting your replies likewise --- I don't think!  And yes, please proofread if possible, you know it makes snese. Meanwhile, most unfortunately your apparent ignorance is increasingly revealed and growing with each and every post you make these days on a variety of subjects.  This is sad, really, but again: as ignant666 suggested sagely back so long ago now, surely it's time for you to quit while you're (lagging even further) behind?

Incidentally while you're still here persevering, what is your understanding of the gnomic "Mu", the latest utterance (I balk at calling it a "revelation") of your sometime 'goo-roo' Los?  Would you claim to know what the hell he's on about here (as well)?  I am sure plenty of us would all be interested, nay fascinated, to know your understanding of the matter in depth.

N Joy


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ignant666
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I didn’t know what the “Abramelin talisman” was. I mistakenly thought that that Abraham Talisman was the treasure that AC discovered by evocation.

You think I never heard of Abramelin and I don’t know what a talisman is? I’ve charged many a talisman in my time and I once owned a copy of the Abramelin book. How about you sort out your own reading comprehension issues. We were talking about magically discovering treasure, it was a simple misunderstanding. I thought Shiva knew some specific fact about that that I had missed.

Sure, david, sure, and i have dozen pink Rolls Royces. To use what i believe may be the appropriate idiomatic expression in Foreign, "Millions wouldn't believe you, but i do"."

I wouldn't have had difficulty understanding what i or Shiva wrote about this very famous talisman at age 12, with the knowledge of AC's life, and reading comprehension abilities, i had then. Consider your credibility as a scholar of AC's work, or a truthful person, shot to hell.


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dom
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MU?

Some sort of Alf Garnett reference I believe.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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But isn't S.'. H.'. Fra. "The Phallus of A Goat" Los either German or American, and not a Brit?

He used to list his locale as New York City- i once offered to buy him a beverage, and he declined.

I think Alf Garnett's some Brit comedian (oh, fine, a UK TV character, after consulting the Great God Google), but wouldn't be able to reference his work (end bit left post-google to show how unlikely any non-Brit is to know who that is).


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dom
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@ignant666

I wouldn’t have had difficulty understanding what i or Shiva wrote about this very famous talisman at age 12, with the knowledge of AC’s life, and reading comprehension abilities, i had then. Consider your credibility as a scholar of AC’s work, or a truthful person, shot to hell.

Wow you're a bit mercurial aren't you? Consider your data gathering ability shot to hell. I hope you're never ordered to do jury duty. Jesus.

The Book of Sacred Magic of Abra Melin The Mage bought by me in the early 90s my son if you must know and I donated it elsewhere some time after.

You're disputing my talisman charging history? Yes sometimes cabbalistic and mostly chaos magick sigil "talismans" if you must know.

Calm down my son.

I'm waiting for Jamie Barter to get the Garnett reference.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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As to the latest oracular utterance from Captain NEMO, i took "MU" to be a reference to:

-the Greek letter, or
-the number the Greek letter signifies (40), or
-an abbreviation for micro in the standard system of measurement , as in "one millionth part of" (LSD, for example is measured in doses of a couple hundred micrograms (μg)- well actually these days, more like 50 μg/dose)
-in some forms of statistics it is used as as a standard abbreviation for the population mean (numerical average); or
-the mythological sunken continent

Or, most likely, a meaningless bit of smart-assery intended to waste our time trying to figure it out.


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Jamie J Barter
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Personally, I was rather hoping it may have been an arcane reference to the "Justified Ancients of Mu Mu", a most pleasant ditty by that seriously wacky beat combo, the KLF (with Dolly Parton. That Dolly Parton.).

As you're not exactly new to the conversation, dom, you must be badly suffering from ADD big time?? Or puffin merrily away on the old mary jane. The reference is to be found just over half way down page 25 --- just a mere four pages back! --- posted on the 16th inst. in Reply 100973. Look I'll even remind you of it here:

If you’re really dying to know why I claimed my grade publicly — on reddit, of all the most laughable places — I will give you an answer: Mu.

So --- your interpretation now with a minimum of fucking around, if you would please be so good, kind sir...
N Joy


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dom
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As to the latest oracular utterance from Captain NEMO, i took “MU” to be a reference to:

-the Greek letter, or
-the number the Greek letter signifies (40), or
-an abbreviation for micro in the standard system of measurement , as in “one millionth part of” (LSD, for example is measured in doses of a couple hundred micrograms (μg)- well actually these days, more like 50 μg/dose)
-in some forms of statistics it is used as as a standard abbreviation for the population mean (numerical average; or
-the mythological sunken continent

Or, most likely, a meaningless bit of smart-assery intended to waste our time trying to figure it out.

I didn't even entertain it.

MU?

Whatever.

By their work are they known.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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MU could be Miskatonic University; I couldn't get in when i applied as an undergraduate back in the '70s.

Jamie: A big fan of the KLF/JAM. I highly recommend their very fabulous book The Manual (How to Have a Number One the Easy Way), must reading for all aspiring pop musicians, and anyone who likes a good laugh.


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dom
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUEn2J3mq4s

Jesus I hate having to explain my jokes.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Yeah well, ignant666 has already explained that Los ain't Brit, so why should he use such a (lowbrow) cultural reference only really known to Brits therefore?

This is the best your superb reasoning and deductive powers can come up with then is it david/dom, in terms of interpreting this so-called explanation of "Mu"? I suppose it means one should take "you silly old moo" as saying in effect: "you rubbish, worthy of contempt" --- which of course he, and it, most undoubtedly is.

So agreeing with you there boyo!
N Joy

PS Have not read that one ignant666 but will check it out, thanks for the tipoff

PPS Having just checked back david/dom, it appears you have "silently" edited by removal the reference in your post just now to claiming to not know where/what "Mu" was, therefore making my further comments in #101130 look a bit nonsensical or at least a non sequitur (there being no apparent explanation for them, when it was all your fault!) That's just not cricket as an Englishman is it, old sport...


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Shiva
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Sorry for posting the following in the wrong thread. It is now herewith posted in it's proper place:

I believe we were discussing the 8=3 grade, with reference to Los and some megaliths of the Giza plateau.

Now, anyone has the right to claim the title of Magister Templi simply by “taking the Oath of the Grade,” Has the defendant taken that Oath? This question remains unanswered to date.

If one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (without circles, squares, or A’s with three dots) after their holy name, it would be merely indicative or suggestive, and maybe just a bit of fun.

But if one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (accompanied by circle-degree mark and sephira square, PLUS the emblem “A.’.A.”.,” well that’s an equine of a different order and magnitude. THAT would be a clear claim to Magister Templi of the Astrum Argentum, a member of the mysterious S.S., who is authorized by One Star in Sight to form Orders “dependent on himself” (along the R.C. & G.D. lines). Such a claim would reflect either liberation or heresy, er, hearsay.

Also, have you idiots, clowns, dissenters, protagonists, and gullible dorks [including Shiva the Destroyer] stopped to consider that a certain, almost obscure “8=3” might simply be a carrot dispersed by Choronzon in order to cause confusion and promote discord & strife? Yes, what if, in the world consciousness of Thelemic www, a certain 8=3 was the voice of Choronzon crying out for “logic” and “reason” in order to prevent entry into the mindless silence of samadhi? What if “D” was the Ape of Thoth, er, Los? What if “D,” crying out for logic – but revealing biblical imprints in his foundation, constantly changed his position? 9which is understandable and even useful, but perhaps not ‘logical.”

Anyway, while you’re thinking about that, my higher self (NotaRajah) has informed me that h has decided to NOT destroy the Universe on this, the day of the Autumnal Equinox. Happy Equinox to everyone … coming soon (in about 5 hours from now) to a time-zone near you.


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William Thirteen
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Posts: 1091
 

Not to get OT here, but I take exception to the idea that the group which violently assaulted Germer's widow in order to steal Germer's property (thereby causing injury to her from which she would never recover) and which, upon losing that property due to negligence, responded by abusing a child, could ever be considered

the best implementation of Thelema and AC’s work so far, including during his lifetime

Now, back to your regularly scheduled de-programming...


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dom
 dom
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@Shiva who said..

Also, have you idiots, clowns, dissenters, protagonists, and gullible dorks [including Shiva the Destroyer] stopped to consider that a certain, almost obscure “8=3” might simply be a carrot dispersed by Choronzon in order to cause confusion and promote discord & strife? Yes, what if, in the world consciousness of Thelemic www, a certain 8=3 was the voice of Choronzon crying out for “logic” and “reason” in order to prevent entry into the mindless silence of samadhi? What if “D” was the Ape of Thoth, er, Los? What if “D,” crying out for logic – but revealing biblical imprints in his foundation, constantly changed his position? 9which is understandable and even useful, but perhaps not ‘logical.”

Analogy time;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJHsur3HqcI

I mean WTF?

So now I can't quote Christ without it being some sort of conspircacy?

Laughable!

Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.

4. Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, "Blessed art thou!"?

Aleister Crowley
LIBER LIBRÆ
SVB FIGVRA
XXX

A.·. A.·. Publication in Class B

Ignant666 you take note of the above passage also. You seem hell bent on accusing people of being liars without any grounds.

Shiva also said

If one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (without circles, squares, or A’s with three dots) after their holy name, it would be merely indicative or suggestive, and maybe just a bit of fun.

But if one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (accompanied by circle-degree mark and sephira square, PLUS the emblem “A.’.A.”.,” well that’s an equine of a different order and magnitude. THAT would be a clear claim to Magister Templi of the Astrum Argentum, a member of the mysterious S.S., who is authorized by One Star in Sight to form Orders “dependent on himself” (along the R.C. & G.D. lines). Such a claim would reflect either liberation or heresy, er, hearsay.

and Crowley said...

I began to see that one might become a Master of the Temple without necessarily knowing any technical Magick or mysticism at all. It is merely a matter of convenience to be able to represent any expression as x + Y = 0. The equation may be solved without words. Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'. A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists. The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else

What do you make of that Shiva?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posts: 1805
 

@shiva :

If one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (without circles, squares, or A’s with three dots) after their holy name, it would be merely indicative or suggestive, and maybe just a bit of fun.
But if one were to write (type)(cause to be affixed) “8=3” (accompanied by circle-degree mark and sephira square, PLUS the emblem “A.’.A.”.,” well that’s an equine of a different order and magnitude. THAT would be a clear claim to Magister Templi of the Astrum Argentum,

I cannot agree: it makes very little difference whether one goes to the niceties of spelling out the claim in full, as the intention (to deceive) is (still) there.  Probably Los didn't know how to upload the circle and square symbols or was just being lazy and was just using 8=3 as recognisable shorthand rather than going through the full formal attributions. Still, if he really DID mean it as "merely indicative or suggestive, and maybe just a bit of fun", perhaps he would be thoughtful enough to confirm it and so unambiguously remove any uncertainty about it.

a member of the mysterious S.S., who is authorized by One Star in Sight to form Orders “dependent on himself” (along the R.C. & G.D. lines).
Or like a IXth degree with an O.T.O..  But I don't recall seeing this about regenerating the A.'. A.'. by such means (although on the face of it it's not unreasonable, particularly in the absence of a known catina) --- could you provide the reference in OSIS for this?

Anyway, while you’re thinking about that, my higher self (NotaRajah) has informed me that h has decided to NOT destroy the Universe
But it's liable to happen at any moment though folks, quite likely without forewarning if it just decides to blink out of existence like some large scale quantum fluctuation or 'foam', or if it is really in a "false vacuum state" and abruptly and 'randomly' decides (as it would have to do eventually) to move to a lower-energy condition!

But until such time,
N Joy

@dom:

and Crowley said…
"[... yadda yadda] The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else."

Not again! If I had a fiver for every time you've brought in this treasured cherry-picked citation... (...I would be a fairly rich man)


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dom
 dom
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Yes JBarter,

Are also fed up of hearing "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"?

Back OT re the grade of the Master of the Temple. Long passages reproduced but certainly worth scrutinizing as follows...(although it's all relevant the pertinent bits specifically relating to issues of contention raised in this thread have been emboldened)

The Grade of Master of the Temple is described in Liber 418 as above indicated. There are full accounts in the Magical Diaries of the Beast 666, who was cast forth into the Heaven of Jupiter, and of Omnia in Uno, Unus in Omnibus, who was cast forth into the sphere of the Elements.

The essential Attainment is the perfect annihilation of that personality which limits and oppresses his true self.

The Magister Templi is pre-eminently the Master of Mysticism, that is, His Understanding is entirely free from internal contradiction or external obscurity; His word is to comprehend the existing Universe in accordance with His own Mind. He is the Master of the Law of Sorrow (Dukkha).

and from the introduction to AHA!


The Master discloses the doctrine of Passive Attention or Waiting.

This seeming hard to the Pupil, it is explained further, and the Method of Resignation, Constancy, and Patience inculcated. The Paradox of Equilibrium. The necessity of giving oneself wholly up the the new element. Egoism rebuked.

The Master, to illustrate this Destruction of the Ego, describes the Visions of Dhyana.

He further describes the defence of the Soul against assailing Thoughts, and shows that the duality of Consciousness is a blasphemy against the Unity of God; so that even the thought called God is a denial of God-as-He-is-in-Himself.

The pupil sees nothing but a blank midnight in this Emptying of the Soul. He is shown that this is the necessary condition of Illumination. Distinction is further made between these three Dhyanas, and those early visions in which things appear as objective. With these three Dhyanas, moreover, are Four other of the Four Elements: and many more.

Above these is the Veil of Paroketh. Its guardians.

The Rosy Cross lies beyond this veil, and therewith the vision called Vishvarupadarshana. Moreover, there is the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

The infinite number and variety of these Visions.

The impossibility of revealing all these truths to the outer and uninitiated world.

The Vision of the Universal Peacock–Atmadarshana. The confusion of the Mind, and the Perception of its self-contradiction.

The Second Veil–the Veil of the Abyss.

The fatuity of Speech.

A discussion as to the means by which the vision arises in the pure Soul is useless; suffice it that in the impure Soul no Vision will arise. The practical course is therefore to cleanse the Soul.

The four powers of the Sphinx; even adepts hardly attain to one of them!

The final Destruction of the Ego.

The Master confesses that he has lured the disciple by the promise of Joy, as the only thing comprehensible by him, although pain and joy are transcended even in early visions.

Ananda (bliss)–and its opposite–mark the first steps of the path. Ultimately all things are transcended; and even so, this attainment of Peace is but as a scaffolding to the Palace of the King.

The sheaths of the soul. The abandonment of all is necessary; the adept recalls his own tortures, as all that he loved was torn away.

The Ordeal of the Veil of the Abyss; the Unbinding of the Fabric of Mind, and its ruin.

The distinction between philosoÿhical credence and interior certitude.

Sammasati–the trance wherein the adept perceives his causal connection with the Universe; past, present, and future.

Mastering the Reason, he becomes as a little child, and invokes his Holy Guardian Angel, the Augoeides.

Atmadarshana arising is destroyed by the Opening of the Eye of Shiva; the annihilation of the Universe. The adept is destroyed, and there arises the Master of the Temple.

The pupil, struck with awe, proclaims his devotion to the Master; whereat the latter bids him rather unite himself with the Augoeides.

Yet, following the great annihilation, the adept reappears as an Angel to instruct men in this doctrine.

The Majesty of the Master described.

The pupil, wonder-struck, swears to attain, and asks for further instruction.

The Master describes the Eight Limbs of Yoga.

The pupil lamenting the difficulty of attainment, the Master shows forth the sweetness of the hermit's life.

One doubt remains: will not the world be able instantly to recognise the Saint? The Master replies that only imperfect Saints reveal themselves as such. Of these are the cranks and charlatans, and those that fear and deny Life. But let us fix our thoughts on Love, and not on the failings of others!

The Master invokes the Augoeides; the pupil through sympathy is almost rapt away.

The Augoeides hath given the Master a message; namely, to manifest the New Way of the Equinox of Horus, as revealed in Liber Legis.

He does so, and reconciles it with the Old Way by inviting the Test of Experiment. They would go therefore to the Desert or the Mountains–nay! here and now shall it be accomplished.

Peace to all beings!

Thus this describes those who have attained to 8=3.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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@dom

Thus this describes those who have attained to 8=3.

So what conclusions do you draw from the material you have reproduced? In particular, how does it pertain to the specific "Master of the Temple" who is the subject of this thread? Which parts of the material you have posted do you consider describe Los?


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dom
 dom
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@michaelstaley

So what conclusions do you draw from the material you have reproduced? In particular, how does it pertain to the specific “Master of the Temple” who is the subject of this thread? Which parts of the material you have posted do you consider describe Los?

I know in my heart for sure (same way that ignant666 knows that I am not middle aged, never read the Confession... a lot... and never owned a copy of the Abramelin book) that Los is 8=3, yes I just have a hunch y'know a strong intuitive "vibe" that it's true. In fact perhaps one of YHVH'S angels whispered this truth to me. No wait, maybe it was Allah or Uri Geller sent me the message in an ESP ritual or Joseph Smith's spirit told me. Seeing as Aristotle's logic doesn't deliver the goods all of these non verifiable phenomena are plausible aren't they?

Seriously though ,I don't know for sure but I presently lean towards most probably and why not? I'm weighing up the evidence on both sides. Los has written a lot of essays on what the HGA is and how and why to get there (symbolically known as 5=6) which seem totally reasonable to me.

Let me ask you. Were Myosan Eisai or Dogen Zenji initiates? Were they akin to 8=3 also?

On Los and 8=3 Why not consult a tarot spread? Pull one card out of the spread and report back to us. Just a suggestion.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posts: 1805
 

@dom :

Yes JBarter, Are also fed up of hearing “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”? [sic]
There's no (basis of) comparison between the two, for reasons which are surely so obvious I hardly need to spell them out, david/dom.  Once again you've shown the paucity of your reasoning process, demonstrating your logical deductions to be lacking in viabillity & that you don't appear to (want to) learn anything from arthuremerson or ignant666 or shiva or anyone else's (let alone my own) helpful remarks to you.

On Los and 8=3 Why not consult a tarot spread? Pull one card out of the spread and report back to us. Just a suggestion.
Er, 'cos it doesn't have 'The Joker' in it? (boom, tish)

Is that all you  have to say re: the Mu of Los, that it is an Alf Garnett reference?  Gosh, that's so profound....

I think we can all take it that the short-lived "honeymoon period" between you and ignant666 is now over?  Though please do let us know if you both still in agreement.

N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
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W13: ... I take exception to the idea that the group which violently assaulted Germer’s widow in order to steal Germer’s property (thereby causing injury to her from which she would never recover) and which, upon losing that property due to negligence, responded by abusing a child, could ever be considered ...

You have expressed your concern over this event a time or two in the past, and appear to continue holding and expressing your ongoing distress. I'm not sure where the quote "the best implementation of Thelema and AC’s work so far, including during his lifetime" came from. I agree that it is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration.

Dom: So now I can’t quote Christ without it being some sort of conspircacy?

"Conspiracy" means to breathe together, or (in plain language) to make a plot together. There is no conspiracy here, it's just you alone with some sort of foundational-biblical-imprinting upon which you fall back to when interpreting Thelema for us clowns and idiots.

.Jamie: it makes very little difference whether one goes to the niceties of spelling out the claim in full

In this case, you are probably correct, The defendant knew fully well that a simple "8=3" indicated, and that other folks would interpret it as M.T.A.A.

Setting aside such frivolous distinctions, my main point is that one claims the grade BY TAKING THE OATH of that grade. The appendage of numerical equations, with or without circles, squares, A's, and dots is a superficial "claiming," but it don't count unless he TOOK THE OATH. We're all looking for the full description of that event and its circumstances. It would even be acceptable if the defendant would write, "I took the Oath of A Magister Templi." Then we would know if he's being serious ... or not.

One could also put "PhD" after their name, but it don't count either UNLESS HE/SHE WROTE A DISSERTATION or performed an academic project (that was ratified by some legal diploma mill).

JB: could you provide the reference in OSIS for this?

"Members of the Order [S.S.] are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony with the A.'. A.'. as regards the essential principles." [end quote from OSIS].

JB: But it’s [the destruction of the universe] liable to happen at any moment though folks

Sure. "The day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night." [Bible-quote]. BUT, NotaRajah promised to not so act ON THE DAY OF THE EQUINOX. So I was right and he held true. The Universe is still here the day after. I think that prophecy gives me the right to sign myself ...

Shiva 13(degree) = 000[square].

But don't take that too seriously. It's just a bit of fun, like the trick Los is using to get at the goats of all us idiots and clowns.


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dom
 dom
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@Shiva

Dom: So now I can’t quote Christ without it being some sort of conspiracy?

“Conspiracy” means to breathe together, or (in plain language) to make a plot together. There is no conspiracy here, it’s just you alone with some sort of foundational-biblical-imprinting upon which you fall back to when interpreting Thelema for us clowns and idiots

Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.

4. Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?

Aleister Crowley
LIBER LIBRÆ
SVB FIGVRA
XXX

A.·. A.·. Publication in Class B

WOOSH!!! One example of Crowley quoting Christ there (Matthew 5:11) straight over Shiva's head.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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“Members of the Order [S.S.] are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony with the A.’. A.’. as regards the essential principles.” [end quote from OSIS].
Yes, I see that, but it still doesn't seem to say anywhere that any such "dependent" Orders/orders founded "in harmony with the A.'. A.'.", are then "entitled" to actually CALL themselves The A.'. A.'. Arguably, by saying they would be able to cover stuff not contemplated by "the original (or main) system", they wouldn't themselves be A.'. A.'. (the original or main article) per se.

promised to not so act ON THE DAY OF THE EQUINOX. So I was right and he held true. The Universe is still here the day after.
Except time is not measured here as "there", of course!  (Maybe we shouldn't be making any long term plans just yet??)

Hopefully not hairsplittingly yours
N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
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JB: Yes, I see that, but it still doesn’t seem to say anywhere that any such “dependent” Orders/orders founded “in harmony with the A.’. A.’.”, are then “entitled” to actually CALL themselves The A.’. A.’. Arguably, by saying they would be able to cover stuff not contemplated by “the original (or main) system”, they wouldn’t themselves be A.’. A.’. (the original or main article) per se.

Oh, I agree with you completely. If one (none, in the case of a MT) were to be offering the complete, total, original curriculum of the A.'.A.'., then things would be proper. But if one were to offer some alternative approach in his/her curriculum, then (as I have said several times here on LAShTAL) one should CHANGE THE NAME/TITLE/INITIALS of the Order(s) they have created/founded, based on some "other stuff" that is in harmony with A.'.A.'. essential principles - but is not the original curriculum..

I don't know/see that the defendant has actually found/founded any Order(s), nor that he is claiming 8=3 in an A.'.A.'. position, or if he is even claiming A.'.A.'. status in his work and persona. We are assuming that his "8=3" is meant as a claim to Magister Templi A.'.A.'., but our "assumption" needs to be qualified by the defendant himself.

Los: Hi there. Have/are you claiming 8*=3* Magister templi status in the A.'.A.'.? If so, have you taken the Oath of that Grade?

Failure to answer these questions could indicate the Silence of Binah, but we will probably then assume you're just pulling our lower appendages.

JB: (Maybe we shouldn’t be making any long term plans just yet??)

Long term plans for shelters, food, solar electricity, medicine, swords, books are definitely in order. WW3 started in Afganland several years ago. It continues to ramp up. The weather fairy is getting krankier every week. Solar flares are pounding our outer shields. Caramba and the forty thieves, it's the end of the world! Well, maybe the end of an Aeon?

As a 13*=000[], NotaRajah speaks to me in real time. I absolutely predict that not only the Universe, but the World will still be here in one week. If I'm wrong, you will not be able to find me and (pointing pointedly) say, "You, too, are a phony."

Alternatively, the trance of Shivatmadarshana IS [not] taking place right now [eternal time] up in/at the 000 level (Ain = 61 = "Nothing is a key ...").

So any given individual may drop dead at any given moment, and is exempted from my universal/global policy statement prophecy.


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dom
 dom
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Y'know Erwin and Los are apparently not into traditional "Crowleyan yoga" ie the full 8 limbs. I'm surprised that no one's played that card against their philosophy here.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Topic starter  

Surely the contortions necessary to fit "The Abyss", etc. into the "Skeptical Thelema" materialist-reductionist belief-system must count?

Seriously, david, no one here is the least bit interested in their "philosophy", except as an object of ridicule.


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dom
 dom
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Surely the contortions necessary to fit “The Abyss”, etc. into the “Skeptical Thelema” materialist-reductionist belief-system must count?

Anyone else not understand that statement?

Seriously, david, no one here is the least bit interested in their “philosophy”, except as an object of ridicule.

I gathered that about "here" yes but Tiger was wavering.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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@dom

Anyone else not understand that statement?

Perhaps I can help. I take ignant to quip that whereas you maintain that Erwin & Los are not into "traditional" Crowleyan Yoga, given their metaphysical contortions, isn't that a fair substitute?

If I've mangled ignant, doubtless I will get the savaging I deserve.

I gathered that about “here” yes but Tiger was wavering.

That's because it was a mirage.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Topic starter  

david: [looks up in the air, with puzzled expression] Huh? What was that "Wooosh" noise over my head?

No savaging deserved, nor will one ensue, Michael; your interpretation is correct.


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Tiger
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“I gathered that about “here” yes but Tiger was wavering.
That’s because it was a mirage. “

This may or may not be so .


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 

@Tiger

This may or may not be so.

I realised that Tiger. No presumptuousness intended on my part; I just couldn't resist 'mirage' as a pun on 'wavering'. My mun used to say that a poor pun was better than no pun at all. Just one more gem of scintillant Bedfordshire folk wisdom that, without a shadow of a doubt, makes you think.


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