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Abortion


 Anonymous
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I've been wondering how abortion is viewed in Thelema.

I've read that Crowley was against the practice, but then I haven't read his objections to it myself and in context.

One argument against it would obviously be that aborting a foetus is thwarting the Will of another... yet that argument would need to flow from the assumption that a foetus is another human being already at the stage that it is aborted.

An argument for may be that an unwanted pregnancy that occurred despite adequate birth control methods being used constitutes an obstacle to the mother's Will.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

Cicero


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 Anonymous
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That's a touchy pickle of a question. I don't think there will be any clear answer because there is no way to prove when life begins or when the soul and Will of a fetus incarnates.
If traditional magickal doctrine is correct, which states the soul doesn't incarnate into a fetus until somewhere around the six month point, the fetus is just an empty shell until that point and no more than a glorified parasite; the soul being defined here as what makes it human being with a Will of its own and not just another lifeform growing and feeding off the resources of the mother/host.

There isn't any way to prove that though.

Long story short, Thelema is an indiviualistic philisophy and people will make choices based on what their path is and what is harmonious to that path. Crowley had his ideas and beliefs based on his circumstances and experiences with his own children dying, others will have different experiences to base their choices and beliefs on.
I know what I would do in a case of unwanted pregnancy (at least I think I do, its one of those things you don't know what to do until it happens) but I wouldn't dare to try to convince or make laws for anyone else.


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 Anonymous
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"subrosa" wrote:
If traditional magickal doctrine is correct, which states the soul doesn't incarnate into a fetus until somewhere around the six month point, the fetus is just an empty shell until that point and no more than a glorified parasite

Just Curious, where did you get that from? Not trying to be smart here either, I'd like to know where that 6 month thing comes from, and what is the basis (if any) for it.


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lashtal
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Crowley refers to it in Magick In Theory And Practice:

The date of Eliphas Levi's death was about six months previous to that of Aleister Crowley's birth. The reincarnating ego is supposed to take possession of the foetus at about this stage of development.

In his Ninth Degree instruction De Homunculo Epistola, he adds:

The homunculus is a living being in form resembling man, and possessing those qualities of man which distinguish him from beasts, namely intellect and power of speech, but neither begotten and born after the manner of human gestation, nor inhabited by a human soul... Thus, supposing that the re-incarnating Ego enters the foetus at the third month of gestation, it would not serve to remove such foetus from the mother and cause it to live; for it is already human. But a foetus of two months might become homunculus.

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 Anonymous
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Thanks, I do remember reading that in Magick in Theory and Practice now. Are there, or should I say, where would one look for the basis of this idea pre-Crowley. Is this idea found say among Hindu sects or something?


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Anonymous
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93,

I'd also say even so, Thelemite or not, every one has a political affiliation or association or even just an opinion. Wheather Thelema said it was 'allowed' (not that this is what you're asking) or no, I would abort a baby if I were financially, mentally and emotionally unstable. Regardless of anything, if it's my Will to do so, then that is what it is and is what I Will do.

This is a really great thread to bring up as I'm curious what other quotes we can find in relation to this, straight from the horses' mouth so I can mull it over myself.

Long story short, Thelema is an indiviualistic philisophy and people will make choices based on what their path is and what is harmonious to that path. Crowley had his ideas and beliefs based on his circumstances and experiences with his own children dying, others will have different experiences to base their choices and beliefs on.

Amen, Sister.

Vi


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"l_c_cicero" wrote:
I've been wondering how abortion is viewed in Thelema.

As always, the same as any other moral issue:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Do that, and no other shall say nay."

"l_c_cicero" wrote:
One argument against it would obviously be that aborting a foetus is thwarting the Will of another...

"Obviously"? Even if the foetus is a star, it may be it's will to get aborted, for all you know. What is or is not another's will - "obviously" or otherwise - is not your concern; only your own will is.

Moreover:

"Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him."


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 Anonymous
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I'd like to know when ( and how ) the baby's heart starts to beat.


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 Anonymous
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The idea of this first heartbeat facinates me and I am Mother of many


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 Anonymous
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also you could just dump the child here, Im always taking in wraiths and strays!


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 Anonymous
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Does anyone think that tjelema might be a bit masculine ? (willpower and all that ) Sometimes I think that blokes either want to keep things as the've been or change them whereas women kind of live more in the present and deal with that


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 Anonymous
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93!
Yehiaur, I do not not know at which week it begins to beat, but I do know that as early as 7 weeks there is a heartbeat, and to me that would indicate a life force (energy, spirit) is present. We will forever be wondering when the spirit enters the human body . . . As a Thelemite and Human I would not choose that option, just my personal opinion. I think it's interesting to see peoples opinions change after they've actually had a child, I've never met a mother who was a supporter on abortion (not prochoice), even if it was unwanted! Crowley was a father, and I'm going to have to side with him on this one. I don't really think Thelema is going to have much an impact on peoples already set view.
Q.
93, 93/93


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 Anonymous
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Im more intersted in the second the absolute second that the heart beats, i, e. the very first heart beat


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 Anonymous
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Are there other parents here eho know how to mix pesonal interests with practical stuff?


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 Anonymous
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I'd like to know when ( and how ) the baby's heart starts to beat.

The yolk sac can be recognized by 4-5 weeks' gestation and is seen until approximately 10 weeks' gestation. The yolk sac is a small sphere with a hypoechoic center and is located within the GS (see Image 2). Observing a GS that is larger 10 mm without a yolk sac is rare, and if this is observed, it most likely represents an abnormal pregnancy (see Image 3). Likewise, a yolk sac larger than 7 mm without evidence of a developing fetal pole suggests a nonviable pregnancy. The diagnosis of intrauterine pregnancy can be made once the yolk sac is present, which also excludes ectopic pregnancy, except in the rare instance of heterotopic pregnancy. A heterotopic pregnancy, an intrauterine pregnancy, and an ectopic pregnancy during the same gestation was once thought to be extremely rare but has now been shown to be present in as many as 1 in 3000 pregnancies.

The fetal or embryonic pole is first seen on TVUS images at approximately 5-6 weeks' gestation. It should always be seen by TVUS when the GS is larger than 18 mm or by TAUS when the GS is larger than 2.5 cm. The fetal pole is a linear hyperechoic structure that grows at approximately 1 mm/d.

Cardiac motion can sometimes be identified in a 2- to 3-mm embryo but is almost always present when the embryo grows to 5 mm or longer. At 5-6 weeks' gestation, the fetal heart rate ranges from 100-115 beats per minute. The heart rate will steadily increase to a mean of 140 beats per minute by 9 weeks' gestational age. -- emedicine.com

From what I've been taugh, you should be able to hear the heartbeat w/ a regular doppler from about 10-12 wks.


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 Anonymous
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hmm..I thought it was about 20 wks


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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I don't think the heartbeat indicates the life having officially 'began'. I think the life 'begins' officially at the time of fertilization and original conception, which in this technological age, we've proven.

There's many things one would argue to say appropriately to them defines when a being becomes more than just those words, "to be" but as "alive". I would think a study of this subject according to psycho-socio issues would be in high demand, which it's not. Mainly because people can be zealetous, believing what they want regardless of extremity, and in large quantities. In the Golden Dawn, as many of you know, Zealetor is a grade. I suppose like life, the word 'zealot' could be positive or negative as well, pending on the person it describes. Concerning what studies already have been done, here's one: the dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life

Life is defined in 36 different ways by probably the most used dictionary on Earth.. I won't go on any farther of definitions given here or elsewhere, the distinctive qualities are right there so you can see for yourself and find what tricks your individual trip. But for me, I think a baby being conceived at all, be it tinier than we can see with an eye or a cheap microscope... But one we definately can see with a powerful one: Life begins when the fertilized egg begins to grow and of course, it will continue. I do not think the presence of an intelligent mind defines life. Every thing is a part of life... And yet, I don't think I would define something that isn't organic as not living... Everything is "alive" in my eyes. And everything "dies"... I think plastic dies by getting burried or burned. 8) I also think everything is constantly reborn, even the Universe itself, our cells, our seasons, our plants, our animals, and in some ways like in cells and plants, this is proven. But that's just me. Wot a strange fackin' gal.

Agape,

Becky


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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ps, Jerry, do we have a Doctor in the house? A pre-med student? Or just a really good researcher?

Becky


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 Anonymous
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I think youve got too much time on your hands. I'm 41 and have physicallly given birth to 5 offspring. Why 36?


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 Anonymous
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Also ypuve not met my Starbaby


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 Anonymous
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Ive been trying to get in contact with other parents on this site for age...


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Can you please say everything you have to say in a single post? I'd appreciate it, it takes up much of the space on the threads. If you really prefer it, by all means, continue to post as you will.

And for sake of not making another seperate post, I'll elaborate on your comments.

I think you've got too much time on your hands.

Should I bother to address this rude remark? I guess the only thing I could possibly say is, who are you to judge? Do you even know me to make an assertion about how I spend my time each and every day? I think not.

I'm 41 and have physicallly given birth to 5 offspring.

Good for you and your little miracles.

Why 36?

The dictionary defines life in 36 different ways in the link I posted and was referencing in the paragraph I brought it up in.

"Also ypuve not met my Starbaby"

I'm sure it's wonderful in the way babies always are.

"Ive been trying to get in contact with other parents on this site for age..."

Three of my best friends in this Universe are parents from this site, one over your age, with whom I speak to on a very regular basis. Oh, I should also mention my brother, who had children late and who is 10 years older than myself had a child which my parents took custody of and we all (yup, including myself) raised from the time I was 12. Literally, I have been raising children since I was 12.

Your remarks have offended me, as I'm not sure what you were getting at, saying I have too much time on my hands... You're here reading something you entirely disagree with, making pointless statements about it, wasteing your own time!

Is not this site to educate and illuminate? Then illuminate yourself, Y, and ask questions, debate, show some potential and regard for me. I'd appreciate it and I deserve it.

Love is the law,
Love under will,

A soror,
Becky.


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 Anonymous
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Oh well, sorry to have offended you Becky. Hopefully you will have gotten over it by now. I guess I was just enjoying a bit of freedom and a couple of bottles of wine so no doubt was a bit irritating. Have been talking baby language for some time too.Obviously I didn't mean to write ypuve! Aren't you maybe taking things a bit personally? I'm pretty sure even Uncle Al could appear less than illuminated on the odd occasion. Anyway, what is it that I entirely disagree with? I never said I was anti abortion. I only implied that perhaps the child was truly alive when its own heart started to beat.


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 Anonymous
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and when I die I'll go to to heaven and meet saint peter and uncle alaister crowley. They'll hisper my good deeds and shout my bad deeds loudly. . I know for a fact, on my 5 sons' heads, thatI've seen magick working and that's why I'm here. Congratulations Becky for being a child carer, itmust have been hard but please don't patronise me. Although I do see myself as being a bit of a Thelemite, I'm getting fed up with this 'What does The Book say about such and such ' attitude. I've been reading Crowley for well ovewr 20 years and I really don,t think that he wanted that. I dunno , Am I just getting old and twisted?


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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That's exactly it, you didn't say you were anti-abortion, or anything, you were just making stupid comments and then directing shit at me, saying I have too much time on my hands and that you can't find adults for practical conversation. Sorry you offended me? No you're not becase you continue to do so! Now you throw back at me that I'm a fundamental Crowleyite, saying crowley might hav been wrong on occasions? Jesus, you really, really don't know me. And then you tell me not to patronize YOU.......? I did everything I could in that last message to say what I had to say and be nice about it. I'm done with this thread so long as you continue to act this way, there will be no replies. I've said what useful things i had to say.

You may very well be getting old and twisted, sister. But hey, you asked!

Becky


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 Anonymous
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You ever heard of mirror displacement? I'm going back to my book ( The Haring Trumpet by Leonora Carrington)


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 Anonymous
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please don't take things personally- you're not that important to me. Oops sorry. should have written all that in the same post cos you deserve it. I'm getting annoyed now


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 Anonymous
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and before anyone says anything I'm finished now. How do Thelemites deal with being genuinely pissed off?


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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"Yehiaur" wrote:
How do Thelemites deal with being genuinely pissed off?

Dunno: but judging by the total lack of responses to your ridiculous posts, I think we have established that members of this site are bored by you.

Thread closed.

Please go away now and take your troll with you.

Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM

Owner and Editor
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