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tony1983112
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13/05/2010 7:11 pm  

Hello all,
I have been thinking about this for some time and would like the thoughts from the people at lashtal. How does an Aeon as defined by the Thelemic tradition look at evolution, were they fall on the chart and the effects on early man. Does the Aeon apply to all creatures and pre Homo sapiens (Ardipithecus ramidus, Australopithecus africanus, Neanderthals)? How are we able to actually measure an Aeon? Does an Aeon have a set measurement or is it a marker not measured like a progressive point in development?


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 1:48 am  

An interesting thought. There are several ways of thinking about an Aeon in Thelemic Tradition, and all have a place. They're all modes of interpretation for which value can be found.

I agree that an Aeon = Time, but perhaps not always in the same way. For instance:

The 2,000 year thing is not the only interpretation of an Aeon's duration. There are a number of ideas presently about this sort of thing - the idea that, for instance, every Aeon is not necessarily a history-bound thing, that all actually run concurrently and may be "tapped in to", (sort of in a manner analagous to a radio signal) at any time if you're so endowed, etc.

But if you're referring to Crowley's initial interpretation - that of the 2,000 year duraton - from what I understand, those very early things you mention would all belong to the Aeon of Isis, the first Aeon of human historical times. ( During it, I note, our sense of Time became eventually established for the first time, with the invention of writing. With this sense of the fixity of Time, comes the erection of Ego, which led to the Aeon, or consciousness-vibration, of Osiris, and all its terrible spiritual problems).

It can be seen, then, that the interpretation of Aeon as a period of phenomenal Time (especially if measured in years) cannot really apply, strictly speaking, to any state of consciousness which antecedates (or supercedes) the development of the fixity of Time as a feature of that consciousness. In other words, there was no such "thing" beyond that state. Presumably the Aeon of Horus will (or already has) bring with it the means to see Time in yet another manner (ie. non-historical, or maybe hyper-historical), which leads us to the future Aeon of Maat.

One can look at earlier human cultures of the Aeon of Isis: for instance of which the Australian Aborigine can provide useful example, being the oldest type of spiritual culture on Earth, going back to the Stone Age - and their notion of "Dreamtime", "Dreaming", or ( Alcheringa ), which is the non-historical "eternity" of conscousness which surrounds the present moment like a halo in all directions.

In the Dreamtime, all things were/are made - ie. consciousness switches 'on', becomes aware, or dreams. Before this, nothing can be. It (Dreaming) may be viewed as the earliest phase of human thought, and from it all creation myths spring.

What I love about this wonderful idea is that not only does it ring true, it is a perfect illustration of the way in which the Aeon of Isis (of which their culture is an ideal expression in some ways) can survive nearly intact into future Aeons, and also of the valuable way in which it shows the inapplicability of notions of 2,000 year periods of time once you hit the Aeon of Isis, retrospectively speaking, because Time was not measured before then, certainly not in years. That's probably why Aleister stopped there (although I have a hunch that he speculates somewhere or other about previous aeons, I forget what he says though).

The idea of measurement of time in an historical way belongs properly to the Osirian or historical/mortal ego/patriarchal phase of consciousness, which Crowley was (according to his own words) still affected by, hence his interpretation being limited to the 2,000 year thing. The Aeon of Isis, though, requires a different set of criteria - and so do the rest, probably. Imho.


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 8:43 am  

In other words - it may well be that the aeon of Osiris appears to have been of about 2,000 years' duration, but that apparent trend needn't necessarily apply to the aeons on either side of it; they may be likely to "endure" in ways which are totally alien to conventional Osirian temporal measurement concepts, which are what Crowley used to posit his theory of Aeons (which aren't mentioned in the Book of the Law, btw).


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Azidonis
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14/05/2010 3:55 pm  

93,

"The precession of the Earth's axis has a number of observable effects. First, the positions of the south and north celestial poles appear to move in circles against the space-fixed backdrop of stars, completing one circuit in 25,771.5 years (2000 rate)..."

Axial precession

"Traditional Hindu astrology is based on the sidereal or visible zodiac, accounting for the shift of the equinoxes by a correction called ayanamsa. The difference between the Vedic and the Western zodiacs is currently around 24 degrees. This corresponds to a separation of c. 1700 years, when the vernal equinox was approximately at the center of the constellation Pisces and the tropical zodiac coincided with the sidereal one (around 290 AD, or at 23.86ยฐ as of 2000 according to N. C. Lahiri)...."

Sidereal astrology

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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14/05/2010 4:54 pm  

Azidonis, I'm genuinely interested in how, if at all, you think the astrological ages (or the info in the above links) relate to the three aeons postulated by Crowley.

(Advance intelligence on my view: I see them as quite different things, presently at least).

I mean, the age of Isis being presumably concurrent with the astrological age of Aries ( . . . or, hey - I just thought of this - should that be the real age of Aquarius, according to the Tz-H moebius strip thingo, making this the age, in fact, the real age of Aries? Aquarius, the flood, the goddess, hmmm...)

๐Ÿ˜€

n


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Azidonis
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15/05/2010 5:17 pm  

93,

I think the many dating systems humans have create way too much confusion, really.

If you begin the calender on the Vernal Equinox, you get Aries as first in line. If you begin it on January 1, you begin somewhere in the middle of Capricorn. The "precession of equinoxes" has been labeled as Piscean, Aquarian, and Isian (I don't remember which sign was attributed to the Aeon of Isis?). In traditional astrology, Pisces is the last sign on a list that begins with Ares. Aquarius moves one step closer... it is like a countdown to Ares beginning with Pisces. What's wicked about that is, "The vernal equinox lay near the beginning of the Aries constellation around 500 BC, consistent with a Babylonian origin of the system.".

Added to this, our common dating system is fubar. We currently use the Gregorian Calendar, and have been doing so since about 1582. Then of course things happen... while they set this calendar up to begin at the birth of Christ, modren science has determined they were a few years off. So as it goes, Christ was born a few years B.C. Of course such information is only relevant to us in helping to recognize that the common calendar system has faults. There are tons of calendars though, and even Thelemites have their own, as do Muslims. I think that calendars are useful for organization, but they are messy at any rate.

Where the planets and constellations are concerned, the procession of equinoxes seems to have some effects on the Earth and its people. The exact details of the effects are unknown, but carry a very broad range of events with them. Perhaps the Earth is "tuning in" to these various constellations or planetary bodies, and receiving certain vibrations from them, which vibrations are amplified depending on which constellation is in the ecliptic next.

Whatever the overall cause, I probably won't find the answer too soon, as I am a complete and total amateur when it comes to stuff like this. ๐Ÿ™‚ However, I do see a connection between the changes in the heavens and the changes in man, whether they are explained by science yet or not.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 6:46 pm  

As a convenience for classifying human 'spiritual' (or 'religious,' or 'magical'...) progress or evolution, I see polytheism as Isis, monotheism as Osiris and the hybrid of these 'parents,' Horus the Child, as the self-deification by way of self-realization that is Thelema; the Law of many diverse individuals, each unique, but each the Sovereign center of the Universe. Etc, etc, etc...

As for calendars, I measure each year as commencing on the date of my birth, with divisions into five equal 73 day periods or 'Chokmah Days' (leap year day ignored); and I also share the convention of the common year commencing at the Vernal Equinox.

As for Time itself, I agree that it is not 'There and Then' as it is 'here and now,' but that even a game of duality and illusion must be played by its own rules. ๐Ÿ™‚

That's my take, tony1983112.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 7:36 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I think the many dating systems humans have create way too much confusion, really.

I know. It's always awkward meeting the parents, I find.

Oh, sorry . . . ๐Ÿ˜‰


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 8:35 pm  

Greetings!

Perhaps it would be interesting if one would try to communicate with these Aeons as if they were intelligent beings of space-time consciousness and see what happens.

Regards
Hecate


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 9:03 pm  

Excellent idea, Hecate! It works well with Horus. The dialog seems to include, but is also beyond, the conventional space/time dimensions.


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Azidonis
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16/05/2010 10:04 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I think the many dating systems humans have create way too much confusion, really.

I know. It's always awkward meeting the parents, I find.

Oh, sorry . . . ๐Ÿ˜‰

LOL


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 10:16 am  

๐Ÿ˜€


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 12:43 pm  

Behind the Aeons and evolution:

"Hecate" wrote:
Greetings!

Perhaps it would be interesting if one would try to communicate with these Aeons as if they were intelligent beings of space-time consciousness and see what happens.

Regards
Hecate

Hecate, paydirt! ๐Ÿ˜†

Crowley described communicating with the "intelligent beings" behind the passage of the Aeons, what he sometimes called "the gods" and sometimes "the Secret Chiefs" or "the Secret Masters", to be the only object and reason worthwhile in his aspirations with Thelema, and - as he writes on the last page (page 923) of his 'autohagiography' Confessions - constituting the gateway for our progress beyond the limitations of Earthly existence and morTality.

The constant aspiration for "the gods" being the only object and reason worthwhile in Crowley's Thelema, clearly influenced his definition of the word regeneration, a word so essential in Thelema's most holy Scripture, wherein it is written, in this Scripture's first chapter's verse 53: "This shall regenerate the world, ... ."

In his definition of regeneration Crowley equates this word with the words redemption and atonement, and with what he referes to as "similar terms", and he describes all these words and terms as similarly meaning "the reunion of the human with the divine consciousness." Source: Confessions page 510.

As for those inspired by what Kenneth Grant has done with Thelema - to me - Grant, comes across as having moved further along the lines of what that for Crowley was the central and only worthwhile object and reason, in the latter's aspirations with Thelema.

Below are som relevant quotes in their original and unedited forms:

http://hermetic.com/legis/ccxx/chapter-i.html#i.35
"52. If this be not aright; if ye confound the space-marks, saying: They are one; or saying, They are many; if the ritual be not ever unto me: then expect the direful judgments of Ra Hoor Khuit!

53. This shall regenerate the world, the little world my sister, my heart & my tongue, unto whom I send this kiss. Also, o scribe and prophet, though thou be of the princes, it shall not assuage thee nor absolve thee. But ecstasy be thine and joy of earth: ever To me! To me!"

http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter54.html
"Initiation consists in identifying the human self with the divine, and the man who does not strain constantly to this end is simply a brute made wretched and ashamed by the fact of selfconsciousness." Page 469.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter58.html
"Regeneration, redemption, atonement and similar terms mean alike the reunion of the human with the divine consciousness. Arrived at the highest possible point of human attainment by regular steps, one finds oneself on the brink of the Abyss, and to cross this one must abandon utterly and for ever all that one has and is. (In unscientific mysticism the act is represented sentimentally as the complete surrender of the self to God.)" Page 510.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter68.html
"The affairs of the parasites of the planet, including Aleister Crowley, appear abject and absurd. I cannot pretend to take them seriously. The only object in attaching oneself to an individual is to have a standard suitable for symbolic representation of certain phenomena which happen to interest one, though they cannot possibly possess any importance for one, and the only reason for interesting oneself in the welfare of any such individual is to increase the efficiency of one's instrument of perception. This, then, explains why the only intelligent course of action for a man is to obtain initiation. Even this is useless in itself. The highest attainment is insensate except in reference to the convenience of an intelligence who is not in any way involved in the individuality of its instrument." Pages 653 and 654.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter96.html
"... Aiwass is an intelligence of an order altogether superior to that of man. The proof of his existence is therefore the proof of the postulate of all religion, that such beings actually exist, and that communication with them is a practical possibility. Thus, apart from the stupendous value of The Book of the Law itself, it opens up a path of progress to mankind which should eventually enable the race to strike off the fetters of mortality and transcend the limitations of its entanglement with earth." Pages 922-923.


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 1:38 am  

Greetings one and all,

The advent of the Aeon of Horus was celebrated with utmost pomp on July 16th, 1945 with the detonation of the worlds first nuclear device, the Trinity Gadget at Alamogordo, New Mexico. The resultant light generated by the liberation of nuclear energy was of such majesty and uniqueness that a blind girl 50 miles away "saw" it.

Be of good cheer!

The following 2000+ detonations have modified the earth with the dispersion of novel radioisotopes and energies sufficient to subtly initiate mutation in those fortunate enough to be conceived after global testing accelerated by the worlds nuclear powers in the 1950s.

What better imagery of Heru Ra Ha in action than in his 15 megaton thermonuclear manifestation of the Castle Bravo shot!


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Azidonis
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17/05/2010 2:03 am  
"ChristopherX" wrote:
Greetings one and all,

The advent of the Aeon of Horus was celebrated with utmost pomp on July 16th, 1945 with the detonation of the worlds first nuclear device, the Trinity Gadget at Alamogordo, New Mexico. The resultant light generated by the liberation of nuclear energy was of such majesty and uniqueness that a blind girl 50 miles away "saw" it.

Be of good cheer!

The following 2000+ detonations have modified the earth with the dispersion of novel radioisotopes and energies sufficient to subtly initiate mutation in those fortunate enough to be conceived after global testing accelerated by the worlds nuclear powers in the 1950s.

What better imagery of Heru Ra Ha in action than in his 15 megaton thermonuclear manifestation of the Castle Bravo shot!

93,

What utter nonsense. I suppose now we are going to have various people creating Lashtal accounts in order to hand out Jack Chick tracts...

Funny how such filth spills over to here, but they will not find us on their forums discussing the Aeon of Pisces and the atrocities of the same.

93 93/93


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tony1983112
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17/05/2010 2:18 am  

Thank you all for your posts!


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 3:14 am  

"Filth"? That's a bit harsh. Azidonis, AC does in fact refer to the atomic weapons as related to the aeon of Horus, as well as the bloodshed of both World Wars. He also drew allusions that the publications of AL were related to these things, and other assorted disasters.


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Azidonis
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17/05/2010 5:20 am  

93,

For you Noc...

"ChristopherX" wrote:
Greetings one and all,

The advent of the Aeon of Horus was celebrated with utmost pomp on July 16th, 1945 with the detonation of the worlds first nuclear device, the Trinity Gadget at Alamogordo, New Mexico.

First and foremost, I can think of many other events, and many earlier events, which would constitute quite well as "celebrated with utmost pomp". Where science is concerned, for instance, one could cite the development of nuclear power in the first place, the ability to travel through space, etc.

For a more thorough approach, try 20th Century - Timeline and Inventions of the 20th Century. One can simply start in 1904 and knock themselves out.

The resultant light generated by the liberation of nuclear energy was of such majesty and uniqueness that a blind girl 50 miles away "saw" it.

Eh, I'm happy for her. I hope that the amount of light generated created a very nice flash for her. Not to take away from here experience in any way though, this sentence appears to me nothing more than an attempt to demonstrate the area of effect from the explosion.

Compare this area of effect with the Bubonic Plague, the Crusades, etc.

Be of good cheer!

A nuclear disaster is hardly something to be cheerful about. Period. I'm sure the inhabitants around Chernobyl were elated... :/

The following 2000+ detonations have modified the earth with the dispersion of novel radioisotopes and energies sufficient to subtly initiate mutation in those fortunate enough to be conceived after global testing accelerated by the worlds nuclear powers in the 1950s.

This sentence is a further attempt to demonstrate the failures of nuclear science. It is the equivalent of comparing the oil spill on the Gulf Coast to the entire rest of the oil industry, and pointing out the failure in lieu of the actual success. Or, on a more "religious" note, pointing out corrupt Popes in sarcasm as being the pinnacle of the Jeudo-Christian era and declining to mention the existence of any successful ones.

What better imagery of Heru Ra Ha in action than in his 15 megaton thermonuclear manifestation of the Castle Bravo shot!

Some may envision this as Heru Ra Ha, but honestly, I do not see how.

There, Noc. Not with any malice towards you at all... just pointing out that it seems quite clear that this poster is more of a troll than anything. At least on this first post. Successive posts, not that I believe there will be any, may prove otherwise.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 9:06 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

... just pointing out that it seems quite clear that this poster is more of a troll than anything. At least on this first post. Successive posts, not that I believe there will be any, may prove otherwise.

93 93/93

Ah, brother...

Did my post hit a sensitive nerve with you? For I am truly amazed at the scope and emotional content of your reaction to it. And for that I fear, consequently, you obviously misunderstand every word I wrote and project into it a very subjective, and very erroneous & pedestrian interpretation, perhaps from the presence of an unconscious Christian shadow. Thus, you appear to be at odds with the irresistable solar-martial nature of Heru Ra Ha and the reality of the war-engines of his Aeon. I am quite at a loss to comprehend your extremely condescending and arrogant attitude unless you somehow see yourself as The All-Knowing Gatekeeper of Truth. I seriously doubt you exhibit such rudeness in an actual face-to-face discussion without suffering the appropriate consequences, unless of course, that is....

Since I can only guess that the phrasing of, โ€œBe of Good Cheerโ€ must invoke horrific memories of childhood Christmas for you, I'll rephrase it for you asโ€œRemember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.โ€

In the future, politely refrain from ignorantly trashing my posts as filth and I will most certainly return the favor to you.


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Azidonis
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17/05/2010 9:46 am  
"ChristopherX" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

... just pointing out that it seems quite clear that this poster is more of a troll than anything. At least on this first post. Successive posts, not that I believe there will be any, may prove otherwise.

93 93/93

Ah, brother...

Did my post hit a sensitive nerve with you? For I am truly amazed at the scope and emotional content of your reaction to it. And for that I fear, consequently, you obviously misunderstand every word I wrote and project into it a very subjective, and very erroneous & pedestrian interpretation, perhaps from the presence of an unconscious Christian shadow. Thus, you appear to be at odds with the irresistable solar-martial nature of Heru Ra Ha and the reality of the war-engines of his Aeon. I am quite at a loss to comprehend your extremely condescending and arrogant attitude unless you somehow see yourself as The All-Knowing Gatekeeper of Truth. I seriously doubt you exhibit such rudeness in an actual face-to-face discussion without suffering the appropriate consequences, unless of course, that is....

Since I can only guess that the phrasing of, โ€œBe of Good Cheerโ€ must invoke horrific memories of childhood Christmas for you, I'll rephrase it for you asโ€œRemember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.โ€

In the future, politely refrain from ignorantly trashing my posts as filth and I will most certainly return the favor to you.

93,

Let me guess, you wouldn't mind seeing this entire world destroyed in a nuclear explosion?

93 93/93


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Azidonis
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17/05/2010 10:29 am  

93,

Okay, I'll bite. (Apologies in advance for double post... too late to edit.)

There are many ways of changing the world. It can be done through education, religion, politics, peace, love, war, etc. I can also be changed through nuclear explosions.

These nuclear explosions can:

1) Adjust the population of living things, possibly making some thrive (such as cockroaches), and possibly making some extinct. Where the population of humanity is concerned, one could argue that such explosions act to "purge" the Earth of certain things for the better. The idea appears similar to an indiscriminate firing squad in which you just line say 100 random people up and kill them all in the interest of thinning the population to make things more "suitable" for others. Extreme cases might involve an Adolf Hitler type of genocide where a particular type of person is singled out and made extinct.

2) Adjust land formations. I'm not a geologist, but it sort of goes without saying that a nuclear explosion does alter the land in which it occurs. While it can effect population, it can also effect agriculture, vegetation, etc.

3) Adjust atmosphere and climate. This can be anything from global warming-type issues, to natural disasters, etc.

4) Many other things that escape me at the moment.

So, if the Earth is indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants, what does this say for the many places that will eventually be inhabitable by human beings at some point in the future? The visualization I'm getting is a radiation map of the world, where many areas are shaded red or some other color and designated as forbidden zones. Sure, there will be some survivors, and Hollywood has furnished us with many ideas of how people might act in such a situation.

If not something similar to this, then what pray tell is the actual point of your original post?

In a face-to-face discussion, I would most likely have some idea of who you are and what your view is on the subject in the first place, unless you are the type of person to walk into a room telling everyone how beautiful nuclear explosions are on a daily basis. Then I would probably just dismiss you as a nutcase. On a Web Forum such as this, troll is the commonly used term for that. Since you are new to this Site and did not bother stating your actual disposition, and just began your post without giving any indication as to your intentions, you may understand my initial dismissal.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 2:56 pm  

Hi Tony,

I consider Crowley's aeonic cosmology as an outdated victorian baggage propagated with the rest of the Thelema. This Idea that there is spiritual evolution was inspired by Frazer's Golden Bough. Crowley adapted the idea by postulating a new aeon. Others among Crowley's contemporaries did likewise. Carl Jung wrote about an approaching aeon of aquarius. Though his sources went beyond Frazer, in essence he too proposed spiritual evolution with an aeon starting during 19/20 century. Wicca derived also in part on Frazer's intelectual heritage. They only reversed the process, heading backwards. Actually, I consider this reversal - this nostalgic back-to-the-roots strategy - as the complement of the idea of spiritual evolution. These are two sides of the same coin. More generally, ideologies like Fascism and Communism included their own ideas of evolution. While fascists tried to return to the aryan roots, the communists idealised the industrial and technological progress.
Considering the history of this wider 'application' of the idea of (cultural or spiritual) evolution, I am higly critical and suspicious of it - whether in Crowley's writings or elsewhere. The idea has a kind of alpha-male teleologic naivity, that the whole human history was set up and steered (presumably by some gods) just to enable me - here and now - to launch/join some revolution. At its worst, the idea has the potential of transforming sensible people into suicide machines. Even the mild versions do simply no justice to the complexity of the human history and human psychology. From what I gather from the studies on hunter-gatherer societies - people who lived literally for aeons sheltered from the influence of the outside society - these people prove to be cognitively and culturally very similar to us. No aeon of Isis, no bicameral mind. Also what will happen if you enculturate them - if you give them fridges, microwaves, televisions, newspapers etc.? During the process of enculturation, do these people bridge the intermediate aeons or do they just jump forward?
More sensibly, one might consider the individual aeons as themes for meditation. In this case, one might as well devise one's own aeons. My own favourite 'child' is the aeon of fruit fly - the boring aeon. I imagine this aeon started 20 years ago and will continue during my lifetime and beyond. During this aeon nothing significant happens. No revolutions, no world wars, no visits from outer space, no mindboogling scientific discoveries. Just steady trend towards secularisation of society, steady improvements in health care and minor scientific disoveries which will only further corroborate the mainstream materialism etc.
I find this aeon of fruit fly fascinating, because it reverses all of the appeals the aeonic framework caters to. It outrages the alpha-male inside of me. How do the gods dare to make the historical period during my lifetime so insignificant? Etc.
Fortunately, there are currently only very few occultists who would take the whole idea of aeons literally. In my opinion the idea is on its way to oblivion.

Kind regards,
Matus


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 7:58 pm  

It's very difficult to see a big picture from too close a perspective or to be objective in evaluating the events of history without tending to interpret them to suit ourselves, ain't it? ๐Ÿ˜‰


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 11:25 pm  

I would say that Aeon is not necessarily a time, but a principle, like the Aeons found in Valentian gnosticism, the appeared in syzygys or trinities. And each created in union with it's opposite, save for Sophia who gave birth to the physical matter.

If we take Isis = Sophia
Then Osiris = The Christian trinity
and Horus = Nuit-Hadit-RaHoorKhuit

Sophia is pure matter the physical earth the feminine principle
The Christian trinity is pure spirit, that is ideals, unmanifest potential, the male principle.
Then Horus is the potential manifest in the material world.

These all, always existed. But in the tribal days we worshiped or supported the practical and down to earth world and people who dreamed of spiritual things and other world would have been ostracized and discouraged as dreamers, who were of no use to the survival needs of the people.

In the days of the city, it was those dreamers the priests whose belief in spirits and omens in astrology and gods, than allowed for survival of the city, than knew when to plant and when to harvest etc. It was the dreamers that rallied support around the gods and the after life, that taught non-material values etc. So while this symbolic, dreamer world, was the highest ideal, people worshiped the Male God, the non-physical the unreal rather than the solid earth. Blasphemer's who dared to point out that the Gods were dreams and not real were subject to torture and ridicule.

Now in our age, when the ideal and unreal is manifest into reality within our lifetimes, where it's not even the science fiction of last generation is the science fact of day but rather the fictions of this morning become the new facts we discuss at dinner time. That is the process of manifesting the ideal in the actual, the dreams in the world, is the guiding principle today. We don't shun the physical or the ideal, rather we see both as inadequate in themselves. The man of the earth who has no vision and toils aimlessly and inertly is as inconsequential as the dreamer who waits in faith for a new life in another world after death.

Rather today the spirit of Horus that we honor. It is the man who dreams and makes those dreams a reality. We do not wait for some future life after death, instead we set forth to build the kingdom of heaven on earth.


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 Anonymous
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18/05/2010 8:19 pm  

Ooops, posted this by mistake in the thread "Old Aeon Magickal Systems" first.

"matus.simkovic" wrote:
More generally, ideologies like Fascism and Communism included their own ideas of

evolution. While fascists tried to return to the aryan roots, the communists idealised the industrial and

technological progress.Considering the history of this wider 'application' of the idea of (cultural or spiritual)

evolution, I am higly critical and suspicious of it - whether in Crowley's writings or elsewhere. The idea has a

kind of alpha-male teleologic naivity, that the whole human history was set up and steered (presumably by some

gods) just to enable me - here and now - to launch/join some revolution. At its worst, the idea has the potential

of transforming sensible people into suicide machines.

Yes, ideas similar to the idea of "regenerating the world" contained within Thelema's most holy text The Book

of The Law, was popular both within communism and among intellectuals in general at the time of its writing,

and similar ideas of "regenerating the world" was also essential to the later Fascist movement and the later Nazi

movement.

"tony1983112" wrote:
Thank you all for your posts!

Thanks for that.

"Noctifer" wrote:
"Filth"? That's a bit harsh. Azidonis, AC does in fact refer to the atomic weapons as related to

the aeon of Horus, as well as the bloodshed of both World Wars. He also drew allusions that the publications of AL

were related to these things, and other assorted disasters.

Yes, and he also believed some powerful hidden beings to somehow be i control the developments leading to for

example both World Wars.

In light of this I have the following question for all: "Is there a demand for belief in som powerful hidden

beings in control of our world, contained within the publications of Thelema?"

"Azidonis" wrote:
93, Okay, I'll bite. (Apologies in advance for double post... too late to edit.)

There are many ways of changing the world. It can be done through education, religion, politics, peace, love, war,

etc. I can also be changed through nuclear explosions.

As seen in the following quotes from Magick Without Tears, derived from the hyperlink to luckymojo.com

below, the powerful hidden beings in control of our world - that Crowley believed in -are there described as

changing the world in both peaceful and extremely violent and disastrous ways. But then Crowley also states that

this - even if this involves exterminating "a third part of the race"(I somehow personally don't like the sound

of this, also in relation to genocides like the Holocaust) - is done for our own good, like a gardener or

gardeners would weed out infected plants in a garden, to save the rest of the plants.

Now, one can of course try to psychologize Crowley, and indicate that he felt so treated as an outcast by the

world, that he felt he had nothing to lose if this world collapsed. But in a correspondence by letters between

Crowley and Grady McMurtry from the USA, we see McMurtry disagreeing when Crowley suggests that a disaster killing

90% of the population on the American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he

believed to be in control of our world.

This Grady McMurtry's disagreement with Crowley is interesting seen in the light of the latter supposedly

selecting the former to be his successor.

Link to the three relevant letters from the correspondence by letters between Crowley and Grady McMurtry,

mentioned above: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0600.htm#ps2

In agreement with Bill Heidrick for letting me quote from his site, I want to thank him and the OTO currently

under leadership of Frater Hymenaeus Beta XIIยฐ, for their efforts in making these letters available on the net.

The first letter can be found under the sub heading 'Primary Sources', and is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the

words: " ...the first letter Grady McMurtry wrote to Crowley, in self introduction." Here Grady McMurtry is

critizising members of the OTO in the USA of "glibly speaking" about a "tidal wave of industrial collapse", that

according to McMurtry would have the following result; " ....a full ninety per cent of the population of this

continent would perish in one gigantic orgasm of anarchy."

The second letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "Here's Crowley's first letter to Grady McMurtry,

in response to the above." Here Crowley writes:

"You seem to regard with apprehension the annihilation of 90% of the malignant and stupid insects which you

describe. Personally, I cannot see that it matters two hoots. What we want is the establishment of a principle; in

the same way, the Commander-in-Chief unhesitatingly flings men by the hundred thousand into the jaws of

destruction -- that his cause may triumph. I cannot see much point in pretending to be sorry about it.

I don't know whether these remarks help you at all, even so far as the explanation of my own position goes; in

fact, the question arises whether I have a position. I am the servant of those who sent forth the Book of the Law.

I can really do little more than refer every enquirer to that Book."

The third letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "We conclude this set with a Grady's second letter

to Crowley."

Here, refering to his disagreement with Crowley's suggestion that a disaster killing 90% of the population on the

American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he believed to be in control of our

world, McMurtry writes the following:

"I haven't time to go into detail about the "Great Chipmunk Experiment" at the moment. I have to enlarge on this

at the first opportunity. In fact I will need to do so to bring out certain points on which I do not agree -- in a

constructive sense -- with the policies of the Order as I understand them."

http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/occultism/magic/ceremonial/crowley/000mwtears.txt

"CHAPTER IX (in Magick Without Tears).

THE SECRET CHIEFS ....."

"...the thaumaturgic engine disposes of a type of energy more adaptable
than Electricity itself, and both stronger and subtler than this, its
analogy in the world of profane science." ....

"It is of this universally powerful weapon that the Secret Chiefs must be
supposed to possess complete control.

They can induce a girl to embroider a tapestry, or initiate a political
movement to culminate in a world-war; all in pursuit of some plan wholly
beyond the purview or the comprehension of the deepest and subtlest
thinkers." ....

"To a Secret Chief, wielding this weapon, "The nice conduct of a clouded
cane" might be infinitely more important than a war, famine and pesti-
lence such as might exterminate a third part of the race, to promote
whose welfare is the crux of His oath, and the sole reason of His
existence!" ....

"Since They are "invisible" and "inaccessible," may They not merely be
figments invented by a self-styled "Master," not quite sure of himself,
to prop his tottering Authority?

Well, the "invisible" and "inaccessible" criticism may equally be
leveled at Captain A. and Admiral B. of the Naval Intelligence
Department. These "Secret Chiefs" keep in the dark for precisely the
same reasons; and these qualities disappear instantaneously the moment
They want to get hold of you.

It is written, moreover, "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall
rule the many & the known." (AL I, 10)" ...

"Our business is solely to obey orders: our responsibility ends when we
have satisfied ourselves that they emanate from a source which has the
right to command.

P.P.S. A visitor's story has just reminded me of the possibility that
I am a Secret Chief myself without knowing it: for I have sometimes
been recognized by other people as having acted as such, though I was
not aware of the fact at the time."

"Azidonis" wrote:
So, if the Earth is indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants, what does

this say for the many places that will eventually be inhabitable by human beings at some point in the future? The

visualization I'm getting is a radiation map of the world, where many areas are shaded red or some other color and

designated as forbidden zones. Sure, there will be some survivors, and Hollywood has furnished us with many ideas

of how people might act in such a situation.

If not something similar to this, then what pray tell is the actual point of your original post?

Were we to adhere to Crowley's belief in all powerful 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Masters' of this world, this

Earth might less be "indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants," then the Earth's

inhabitants "undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of" the 'Secret Master.'

Then again, is a belief in such 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Master' of this world, of any importance among

Thelemites?

Scientology's "secret" higher degree teachings about achieving godlike capabilities, might have been inspired by

Crowley's belief in and writings about all powerful godlike 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Master'controlling this

world, as the founder of scientology lived among some Thelemites for a period, and seems to have remained

intersted in Crowley after this period.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/05/2010 9:25 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
In light of this I have the following question for all: "Is there a demand for belief in som powerful hidden beings in control of our world, contained within the publications of Thelema?"

There obviously is still a demand for such religious worldviews among humanity in general at present, and Thelema does supply this demand to those Thelemites with a need or use for this. But, conversely, Thelema also supplies the requirements of other Thelemites for much more secular worldviews. You seem to be trying to 'get to the bottom' of Thelema, wellredwellbred, for what purpose I am not certain, but I'm sure that you are finding that it is not so simply and narrowly focused as you expected it to be. ๐Ÿ™‚


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
18/05/2010 10:33 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Ooops, posted this by mistake in the thread "Old Aeon Magickal Systems" first.

"matus.simkovic" wrote:
More generally, ideologies like Fascism and Communism included their own ideas of

evolution. While fascists tried to return to the aryan roots, the communists idealised the industrial and

technological progress.Considering the history of this wider 'application' of the idea of (cultural or spiritual)

evolution, I am higly critical and suspicious of it - whether in Crowley's writings or elsewhere. The idea has a

kind of alpha-male teleologic naivity, that the whole human history was set up and steered (presumably by some

gods) just to enable me - here and now - to launch/join some revolution. At its worst, the idea has the potential

of transforming sensible people into suicide machines.

Yes, ideas similar to the idea of "regenerating the world" contained within Thelema's most holy text The Book

of The Law, was popular both within communism and among intellectuals in general at the time of its writing,

and similar ideas of "regenerating the world" was also essential to the later Fascist movement and the later Nazi

movement.

"tony1983112" wrote:
Thank you all for your posts!

Thanks for that.

"Noctifer" wrote:
"Filth"? That's a bit harsh. Azidonis, AC does in fact refer to the atomic weapons as related to

the aeon of Horus, as well as the bloodshed of both World Wars. He also drew allusions that the publications of AL

were related to these things, and other assorted disasters.

Yes, and he also believed some powerful hidden beings to somehow be i control the developments leading to for

example both World Wars.

In light of this I have the following question for all: "Is there a demand for belief in som powerful hidden

beings in control of our world, contained within the publications of Thelema?"

"Azidonis" wrote:
93, Okay, I'll bite. (Apologies in advance for double post... too late to edit.)

There are many ways of changing the world. It can be done through education, religion, politics, peace, love, war,

etc. I can also be changed through nuclear explosions.

As seen in the following quotes from Magick Without Tears, derived from the hyperlink to luckymojo.com

below, the powerful hidden beings in control of our world - that Crowley believed in -are there described as

changing the world in both peaceful and extremely violent and disastrous ways. But then Crowley also states that

this - even if this involves exterminating "a third part of the race"(I somehow personally don't like the sound

of this, also in relation to genocides like the Holocaust) - is done for our own good, like a gardener or

gardeners would weed out infected plants in a garden, to save the rest of the plants.

Now, one can of course try to psychologize Crowley, and indicate that he felt so treated as an outcast by the

world, that he felt he had nothing to lose if this world collapsed. But in a correspondence by letters between

Crowley and Grady McMurtry from the USA, we see McMurtry disagreeing when Crowley suggests that a disaster killing

90% of the population on the American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he

believed to be in control of our world.

This Grady McMurtry's disagreement with Crowley is interesting seen in the light of the latter supposedly

selecting the former to be his successor.

Link to the three relevant letters from the correspondence by letters between Crowley and Grady McMurtry,

mentioned above: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0600.htm#ps2

In agreement with Bill Heidrick for letting me quote from his site, I want to thank him and the OTO currently

under leadership of Frater Hymenaeus Beta XIIยฐ, for their efforts in making these letters available on the net.

The first letter can be found under the sub heading 'Primary Sources', and is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the

words: " ...the first letter Grady McMurtry wrote to Crowley, in self introduction." Here Grady McMurtry is

critizising members of the OTO in the USA of "glibly speaking" about a "tidal wave of industrial collapse", that

according to McMurtry would have the following result; " ....a full ninety per cent of the population of this

continent would perish in one gigantic orgasm of anarchy."

The second letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "Here's Crowley's first letter to Grady McMurtry,

in response to the above." Here Crowley writes:

"You seem to regard with apprehension the annihilation of 90% of the malignant and stupid insects which you

describe. Personally, I cannot see that it matters two hoots. What we want is the establishment of a principle; in

the same way, the Commander-in-Chief unhesitatingly flings men by the hundred thousand into the jaws of

destruction -- that his cause may triumph. I cannot see much point in pretending to be sorry about it.

I don't know whether these remarks help you at all, even so far as the explanation of my own position goes; in

fact, the question arises whether I have a position. I am the servant of those who sent forth the Book of the Law.

I can really do little more than refer every enquirer to that Book."

The third letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "We conclude this set with a Grady's second letter

to Crowley."

Here, refering to his disagreement with Crowley's suggestion that a disaster killing 90% of the population on the

American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he believed to be in control of our

world, McMurtry writes the following:

"I haven't time to go into detail about the "Great Chipmunk Experiment" at the moment. I have to enlarge on this

at the first opportunity. In fact I will need to do so to bring out certain points on which I do not agree -- in a

constructive sense -- with the policies of the Order as I understand them."

http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/occultism/magic/ceremonial/crowley/000mwtears.txt

"CHAPTER IX (in Magick Without Tears).

THE SECRET CHIEFS ....."

"...the thaumaturgic engine disposes of a type of energy more adaptable
than Electricity itself, and both stronger and subtler than this, its
analogy in the world of profane science." ....

"It is of this universally powerful weapon that the Secret Chiefs must be
supposed to possess complete control.

They can induce a girl to embroider a tapestry, or initiate a political
movement to culminate in a world-war; all in pursuit of some plan wholly
beyond the purview or the comprehension of the deepest and subtlest
thinkers." ....

"To a Secret Chief, wielding this weapon, "The nice conduct of a clouded
cane" might be infinitely more important than a war, famine and pesti-
lence such as might exterminate a third part of the race, to promote
whose welfare is the crux of His oath, and the sole reason of His
existence!" ....

"Since They are "invisible" and "inaccessible," may They not merely be
figments invented by a self-styled "Master," not quite sure of himself,
to prop his tottering Authority?

Well, the "invisible" and "inaccessible" criticism may equally be
leveled at Captain A. and Admiral B. of the Naval Intelligence
Department. These "Secret Chiefs" keep in the dark for precisely the
same reasons; and these qualities disappear instantaneously the moment
They want to get hold of you.

It is written, moreover, "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall
rule the many & the known." (AL I, 10)" ...

"Our business is solely to obey orders: our responsibility ends when we
have satisfied ourselves that they emanate from a source which has the
right to command.

P.P.S. A visitor's story has just reminded me of the possibility that
I am a Secret Chief myself without knowing it: for I have sometimes
been recognized by other people as having acted as such, though I was
not aware of the fact at the time."

"Azidonis" wrote:
So, if the Earth is indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants, what does

this say for the many places that will eventually be inhabitable by human beings at some point in the future? The

visualization I'm getting is a radiation map of the world, where many areas are shaded red or some other color and

designated as forbidden zones. Sure, there will be some survivors, and Hollywood has furnished us with many ideas

of how people might act in such a situation.

If not something similar to this, then what pray tell is the actual point of your original post?

Were we to adhere to Crowley's belief in all powerful 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Masters' of this world, this

Earth might less be "indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants," then the Earth's

inhabitants "undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of" the 'Secret Master.'

Then again, is a belief in such 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Master' of this world, of any importance among

Thelemites?

Scientology's "secret" higher degree teachings about achieving godlike capabilities, might have been inspired by

Crowley's belief in and writings about all powerful godlike 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Master'controlling this

world, as the founder of scientology lived among some Thelemites for a period, and seems to have remained

intersted in Crowley after this period.

Just a format question... why do you drop down 4-5 spaces for each new paragraph when one suffices?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/05/2010 2:17 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
In light of this I have the following question for all: "Is there a demand for belief in som powerful hidden beings in control of our world, contained within the publications of Thelema?"

There obviously is still a demand for such religious worldviews among humanity in general at present, and Thelema does supply this demand to those Thelemites with a need or use for this. But, conversely, Thelema also supplies the requirements of other Thelemites for much more secular worldviews. You seem to be trying to 'get to the bottom' of Thelema, wellredwellbred, for what purpose I am not certain, but I'm sure that you are finding that it is not so simply and narrowly focused as you expected it to be. ๐Ÿ™‚

Agreed. ๐Ÿ™‚ That Crowley also wrote about and believed in some "powerful hidden beings in control of our world" being behind the revelation of the most holy text of Thelema, makes this something unavoidable "in trying to 'get to the bottom' of Thelema."

"Azidonis" wrote:
Just a format question... why do you drop down 4-5 spaces for each new paragraph when one suffices?

I like much space between each new paragraph, and using much space writing on the net does not waste too much paper.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/05/2010 9:29 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Thank you for the reply, name538. So, is it accurate to say that these ideas are incapable of being effectively put into practical application on a large scale in the real world of today, but might be more feasible on much smaller scale/s, perhaps before but also after the worldwide catastrophe that you predict occurs?

Camlion, I have reflected over what I quote from you above in this posting, from the thread "Thelema-like qualities of Thelema?", where you ask if what name538 mention there about Thelema are ideas "incapable of being effectively put into practical application on a large scale in the real world of today", and what I quote below from you from earlier in this thread, where you state that I surly must be "finding that" Thelema "is not so simply and narrowly focused as" I "expected it to be."

Me think that the clear lack of a simple and narrow focus within Thelema, is actually making it difficult or "incapable of being effectively put into practical application on a large scale in the real world of today."

"Camlion" wrote:
There obviously is still a demand for such religious worldviews among humanity in general at present, and Thelema does supply this demand to those Thelemites with a need or use for this. But, conversely, Thelema also supplies the requirements of other Thelemites for much more secular worldviews. You seem to be trying to 'get to the bottom' of Thelema, wellredwellbred, for what purpose I am not certain, but I'm sure that you are finding that it is not so simply and narrowly focused as you expected it to be. ๐Ÿ™‚

ReplyQuote
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