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pegasus
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12/10/2018 2:00 pm  

or perhaps believe that “the demon Crowley” is above criticism as the earthly vehicle of Thelema.

question everything.

Anyone who knows much about his life knows that Crowley was often a horrible person, who said and did terrible, shameful things, and then lied about them. He saw himself as the victim of every life-circumstance,

I know that guy

Of course, the real secret of the OTO is that the IX “technique” doesn’t work.
But AC clearly believed (against considerable evidence) that it did.

sounds like a ufc chokehold "and he tried the IX technique in round two with 93 seconds on the clock"

Norma Conquest
@MichaelStaley :

I know I’ve wished specific people dead at various times over the years, but those people are still in the land of the living so far as I know. Was I attempting Black Magic thereby? Yes, I suppose I was.
Come, come Michael: there’s a significant whole world of difference between a momentary passing wish and a carefully thought out and executed pre-meditated plan of action, however.

I’ve no doubt everyone’s experienced a momentary outburst of ill temper – such as, an explosion of road rage at someone cutting you up in traffic where one’s provoked to wind down the window and yell at them to “drop dead, you moron” without actually expecting them to expire on the spot as a result. Likewise, describing a similar incident to someone else saying “I could have Killed that bastard” – nobody really expects them to go ahead and do anything of the sort. However from the description given this episode doesn’t belong to this category, does it?

In my humble opinion, I believe there is a distinct difference and it's pure will
you could perform millions of rituals and not get a result, no matter the mindset you get into..

and you purposely could will it a million ways and still no result

the universe only opens her gifts when conditions are met, so no little kid or would be upstart would hold that gift inside themselves. Not every being opens that gift or even sees it, Otherwise our universe would of been destroyed long ago or ceased to exist.

You can only open that one when you have learned to control it ..but.. that's a conundrum because pure will is all about not control lol ... this one though is all about careful control.. see above statement on universe destruction

what I could write about this one.. but ya know? waffle lol.. I will keep silent .. just to surprise you ..*faints oh the discipline lol
but suffice to say pure will... it happens.. it's happened

Black Magic is “causing change to occur wherein the magician benefits at the expense of someone else.”

Hi Shiva how are you

interesting conversation

black magic is then magic indeed, sleight of hand, bullcrap, nota magician a con artist nothing to do with magick there can be no black magick no white magick there is only magick

What is Black Magic anyway? In the axioms at the front of Magick in Theory and Practice Crowley expresses the view that every act is a magical act. Thus, doing the washing-up is no less magical than summoning a legion or two of goetic demons to wreak havoc at one’s bidding.

every action has a reaction

Later in the same book, Crowley expresses the view that any deviation, diversion or distraction from aiming for the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is, strictly speaking, Black Magic (I can’t locate the passage at present).

thanks Michael, gives me something to read, maybe I need to see it in context 😉
anyway that would sort of point to the world as we know it being black magic and that opens a whole new trail...and then there is the fools journey .. one thing comes to mind is "I made the choices I made with the tools I had at the time"

So what, then, is meant by Black Magic in the context of the original post of this thread? Is it something typified by the baddie in The Devil Rides Out, for instaoce?

I'll have to read about that one to find a correlation
I'm sure I know that baddie, rings a bell ...

The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?

yes it says so in book of the law

to quote from memory

Strike them hard
hmm I know other parts but to be exact Ill go grab to quote .. brb with more non waffle


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pegasus
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12/10/2018 2:44 pm  

So in my limited knowledge, the holy books of thelema include the book of the law as a mainstay of "the way" and it is a "bible/quran"

44. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.
oh here we are... what I was trying to describe in my last post

30. If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
then power is not the same as will
31. If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
no, if power asks why it is strength but it can also be weak if it wants or is required.. that's power, to get it ...... ask whyand not wanting it helps .. nothing to do with the op question but it was one of those moments

ah here it is the moonbeam

18. Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!
there you go ... hadit 18

so yes it is in accordance with my knowledge of the law of thelema to actively wish the death of another

whether you do or don't is an individual thing ...success or failure at that "magick" "wish" is a different answer to a question that may follow

death can be an easy way out ..

May I ask, why did you ask this question Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

ps what is this IX technique of the OTO?


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Shiva
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12/10/2018 4:13 pm  

P: ... Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

It is likely that he (NormaN) put up this topic for discussion, rather than as a question for his own knowledge.


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ignant666
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12/10/2018 5:15 pm  

ps what is this IX technique of the OTO?

Oh please. If you have been reading this site long enough to know Jamie has been around for years, you are either being disingenuous, or are abnormally incurious.

In the unlikely event your question is sincere, the OTO IX degree technique essentially consists of a male magician having sexual intercourse with a female partner (who need not be aware that anything other than ordinary intercourse is going on) while concentrating on the desired outcome; the magician then orally recovers semen and female sexual fluids from the partner. This "elixir" may be consumed by the magician alone, shared with the female partner, smeared on a talisman, or sold on the commercial market (as AC did).

If this technique actually worked, Matlack Foster would have died, and Crowley would probably not have died with the Abramelin talisman "To Find A Great Treasure" either in his pocket or under his pillow, as he would have been very, very rich from the dozens, if not hundreds, of IX opera done over the years to get money.

Also, the (c)OTO would be the rich and powerful organization it is not, and would be presumably be rapidly creating more IXs in pursuit of world domination as envisioned by the Blue Equinox, rather than being a rather obscure club for folks that like to play dress-up, that almost never creates a new IX.


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christibrany
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12/10/2018 5:30 pm  

SrMNA I agree with what you said above, I think that's exactly it.

Also my interpretation of elasticity in regards to the ego in personality [after attaining grades above the Abyss] could also be said to be, that one is simply too weak in our current state to hold an ego-less state for long. It would cause the 'band' to snap, and we would perhaps go catatonic/mad?


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christibrany
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12/10/2018 5:52 pm  

Although I don't see much success from the IX in AC or even my own records, I have actually had 'better than the odds' success with the VIII interestingly enough in the past, in getting a job, girlfriend then wife, money etc within the week of the 'work.' Using the AOS sigil formula... different thread perhaps


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2018 6:27 pm  

christibrany: "...that one is simply too weak in our current state to hold an ego-less state for long. It would cause the ‘band’ to snap, and we would perhaps go catatonic/mad?"

I can only speak from my experience in this; I'm cautious about speculating about what happens beyond whatever point I'm at, as the expectations can make things cloudy. I don't put a lot of stock in Crowley's degree attainments, and what he makes of them as a degree system, as by this point he's the one handing out his own degrees, and he does display some narcissistic tendencies that can bias that perception.

But what I have observed so far is that people work in extended "ego-less" states all the time, usually when engaged in work that is marked by the state of flow (Csíkszentmihályi's theory, which for me is one of the big road signs of "Doing Will".) The way I understand it, the ego is merely the part that orients our individual desires to the rest of society and its requirements, related to the individual "life" of the nefesh. It's the part that kicks back in after the artwork is finished and says, "Great...what can I get for that? Rent's due." The time it takes for this drive to reassert itself is influenced by whatever work you've done in setting things up where you don't have to be concerned with that question, or the rationale/psychological framework that you've developed that makes the question less important to you. (And insanity can take care of that last bit as easily as faith in divine/magickal providence.) Problem is that unless one is either incredibly well put-together or exceptionally lucky in life, the nefesh is loaded with "lessons learned" (some of them genetically inherited) and traumas that are going to kick back harder the more one gains the ability to tap the expanded channel...unless one works to integrate that resistance into the Work. Initiatory work - the moral & life skills development side, especially - is supposed to be gradually developing the framework that allows you to expand that awareness of "life beyond the Abyss" without it being perceived as such a hostile environment for the "I".

Most of the people I've been around who are truly great either have massive scars from the fight they've had to face in pursuit of their gifts, dreams and self-determination (usually against obstacles that take out the less driven folks), or else they are in a privileged position where they can easily lose touch with the kind of dance between self and society that more commonly constrains other egos. One of my most beloved mentors was an incredible woman, gifted by both talent and wealth, with an amazing heart...but she was merciless in the studio and generally couldn't comprehend the kind of suffering I faced on the "streets," causing her to be rather oppressive to work under at times. I've loved a lot of teachers who could be monstrous in those upper ranges, which does support what various experts have said about K&C & beyond involving a state that is rather alien to the state of human relationships.

Hope that helps...and thanks to the Lashtalian regulars for a quality of discussion that has become pretty rare.


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pegasus
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13/10/2018 4:21 am  

Shiva .. P: … Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

It is likely that he (NormaN) put up this topic for discussion, rather than as a question for his own knowledge.

Fair call .. and thank you Shiva for the correction of the Sex or gender or whatever they call it these days of Norman. I wasn't sure, assumptions got me again.. I'd say it is "stuck" conditioning on my part but I still separate ones into the two, male or female for species who use meiosis as cell reproduction.

Which leads me down yet another rabbit hole quest for more knowledge. For example a question "as humans reproduce via meiosis, then does this relatively recent alphabet soup of new genders show an advance sign of decay/ destruction/ death/ damage/ of total species" "Does every species reach that tipping point from growth to peak and then destruction" base - apex - base ................"divided for chance of union" ????? "What happens when the magnetic forces are damaged from decay and growth overall stops and stagnates" so much to learn and discover

Contrary to the below quote, it was/is indeed a fascinating topic for me and I have only just started disassembling it.

Oh please. If you have been reading this site long enough to know Jamie has been around for years, you are either being disingenuous, or are abnormally incurious.

In the unlikely event your question is sincere

back at you Ignorant666 with a "my gosh you are nasty and condescending towards someone I guess you perceive to be far lower than yourself. Thank you for the slap down. I bow down and humble myself before your superior self. Please forgive my feeble foolish folly of questioning and learning.
Sunshine and Puppies
Sincerely Incurious
Mayet666


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Tiger
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13/10/2018 5:29 am  

demons in human form
trafficking through

not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires
oh and they also leap

sometimes answers
appear in the medium

when awakened to it
or dreaming U
in a medium

Choronzon trafficking in the mind stuff


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Tiger
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13/10/2018 5:57 am  

and of course gladly naturally let the contour take its course


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Tiger
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13/10/2018 6:26 am  

and aid


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ignant666
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13/10/2018 1:07 pm  

Golly, pegasus!

I apologize for offending.

I would have thought it reasonable to assume that any person interested enough in Crowley to read this site for years might perhaps have read a book, or a couple wikipedia articles about him, in which case one would have probably have heard of the IX method, aka sex magick, since it is one of the most commonly discussed aspects of his work.

Many sources are more coy about exactly what is involved than i was, but i don't think this is exactly obscure information. Googling "OTO IX technique" will produce many resources for further study.


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Jamie J Barter
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13/10/2018 5:21 pm  

@ Michael Staley :

Need there be a point?
Most definitely yes --- that splendid alternative to just dossing around, the Accomplishment of the Great Work!

Note that I don’t say that this is or should be true for you or for anyone else; that’s just the way I see things.
(To be sung to the refrain of ‘For he’s a jolly good fellow”): ...And so say all of Us!

I look forward to discussing it further with you sometime over a pint or two.
Yes, do you happen to recollect the last time we did that? “It was twenty years ago today” (very circa) – I even recall the venue, not the Angel & Feathers of famed repute but The Falkland Arms in Holborn – but I don’t recall whose round it is, though!?

@dom :

I was wondering how a Word of an Aeon incurs karmic penalties? Someone said that earlier.
Do you have the specific reference? Was it in this thread? And as to the actual question itself dom, I refer you to what the late Gerald Suster (bless him!) liked to call “the three most honest words in the English language” --- I don’t know.

I already did. I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him
Sorry but I don’t see the connection --– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly? (And by the way the story according to Confessions - which you've read hundreds of times - was that he stowed Liber AL away in his loft under some skis, not "a cupboard").

like an ideal to live up to.
What --- you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?

@ Soror MNA :

Greetings and I agree with much of your sensible postings & also don’t think anyone has ever been able to deny the very significant influence its Rabelaisian antecedent had upon the creation of “Crowleian Thelema”.

Crowley’s 1923 Tunisia comment regarding the importance of “ordinary decency” (one of his better moments) makes it clear that – at least in the context of what he’s aiming for – there is a level of refinement – the apprehension of the duty of honor – that should be happening as one clears the dross that is clouding the flow of True Will
Yes, this is the theory at least. It’s the practice though which unhappily doesn’t seem to be quite adding up as it should… And it was just after this, I think, that A.C. wrote the otherwise fine essay “Duty”, in which he laid out all the moral points which ought to have a bearing upon Thelemic behaviour by the individual, e.g. not committing robbery, etc. That's if s/he was doing everything right, of course... just like A.C. said they should! (But not having the text in front of me, I can’t remember if there was actually anything in it along the lines of ‘thou shalt not commit murder’, however.)

@christibrany :

In regards to AC, or any one purporting to be Above the Abyss, what about this idea: The state of being ego-less, or above the Abyss, is not a constant state. [...] someone who is of the grade of MT or above, would only sometimes be in the ego-less state.
A verse in Liber Pennae Praenumbra from Sr Nema summed it up rather well, I thought: "Constant watchfulness is the first Act - the Abyss is crossed by minutes, every day” (Incidentally, not being a Class A text I think it’s even neater to regard “minutes” as in the sense of “minute measures” there).

Perhaps one could make a record, of his Record and find various ‘Ascensions,’ followed by ‘Snap Back (negative parts),’ followed by a ‘baseline.’? just an idea
Over what period of time – his whole lifetime? One particular difficulty would be that there are quite large gaps in his Record, for one reason or another, which would make a consistent or thorough analysis troublesome.

Your rubber band analogy had me idly wondering... what does it represent when it gets stretched so far it breaks apart, or when its elasticity gets fatigued?!

@pegasus :

"The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?"
yes it says so in book of the law / to quote from memory / Strike them hard

This is not actively wishing to cause the death of another - strike here doesn't even have to be physical, it could be e.g. a put-down in the form of words.

ah here it is the moonbeam / 18. Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!
there you go … so yes it is in accordance with my knowledge of the law of thelema to actively wish the death of another

The esoterick use of the words Kill (and Death) can also (not always) mean: (to cause) change in consciousness/ perception to occur from a former state.

May I ask, why did you ask this question Norma
Which question? If you mean the above "Is it in accordance...(etc)", the answer was stated in the first part: 'for opinion and debate'. Which I have to say seems to be going surprisingly & unexpectedly uncommonly well on the whole, so far.

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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14/10/2018 3:27 pm  

@jamiebarter

Do you have the specific reference? Was it in this thread?

This question was already by Shiva in #109792 of this thread.

I already did. I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him ~ dom.

Sorry but I don’t see the connection –– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly?

I wasn't discussing infallibility but the opposite, his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone 'magically'.

like an ideal to live up to.

What — you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?

So 'magical energy' is like electricity, it's not inherently 'evil' or 'good'. It can be used by someone who was negatively conditioned by a family/'guardian' as a child and by someone who was not was negatively conditioned by a family/'guardian' as a child.

Does Criowley's Thelemic practices deal with childhood conditioning issues? No they don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5y6C-v5-j0

~ Blazing Saddles.


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Shiva
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14/10/2018 4:47 pm  

Dom: ... his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone ‘magically’.

Maybe something is being missed here.

Therion said he slayed a Circe. Too bad I don't know what a Circe is, but it's obviously not good. Sort of like a vampire.

Well, have we stopped to consider that he slayed the overshadowing, possessing Circe, but left the human host intact? Yes, I know this is a stretch, but it has a basis ...

I was taught to "never use a pentagram on a human being." So, one day in 1976, Frater Mont's girlfriend underwent one of her many flip-outs. I had heard about them, but then I walked into one. She was over-the-edge insane. I asked her if she wanted help. She said "Yes." So I sat her down on a stool and shot a pentagram into her back at the level of the Solar Plexus. She immediately regained her normal, sane composure.

"Thank you," she said.


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ignant666
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14/10/2018 5:29 pm  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circe

Once more, the most likely translation of AC's "a Circe who was bewitching brethren” is “a woman who was sexually attractive, and would have sex with someone else, but not with me”.


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Serpent 252
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14/10/2018 7:01 pm  

Circe was Jeanne Heyse (stage name Ione de Forest), who participated in AC's The Rites of Eleusis. Both Churton and Kaczynski have written about her.

(I have .epub versions of both biographies, which (epubs) I've converted to .pdf, so I cannot give you the exact numbers of pages in the printed books. I'll try to quote here just the important bits.)

"A chronic depressive, Jeanne committed suicide in 1912. Neuburg never got over it, later blaming Crowley for sending him off from a ritual in such a state of mind that when Jeanne asked for help, he rejected her. This story has been cooked to imply the actress’s suicide was Crowley’s doing, another myth for sure, but one Crowley helped to stoke. So upset was Crowley at Neuburg’s obsession with Jeanne, and at Neuburg’s subsequent rejection of him, he used the myth to warn of what could happen to those who interfered with initiates’ progress, almost claiming credit for tipping Jeanne over the edge in chapter 21 of Magick: (...)" (T. Churton, AC, The Biography, Chapter 12)

"In December 1911 she [Jeanne Heyse] also married engraver Wilfred Merton (1888–1957), a Trinity College graduate and avid book collector credited with rescuing “the once–famous Chiswick Press,” who had printed Crowley’s early works. She nevertheless carried on an affair with Victor Neuburg; this resulted in Wilfred naming both Jeanne and Victor as respondents in a divorce complaint. (R. Kaczynski, Perdurabo, Chapter 11)

" (...) Jeanne had shot herself [on August 1–2, 1912] through the heart with a pearl–handled revolver. On a nearby table was a copy of her wedding certificate, her gun license, and a note addressed to the Coroner:
“The last statement of Jeanne Merton, living under the professional name of Jeanne de Forest, being an art student. I hereby state that, although of sound mind, I intend to commit suicide to–night because of the intolerable position in which my extremely rash and unfortunate marriage has placed me. It is my wish that my body be cremated.”
In retrospect, she had threatened suicide over the months to both her husband and her solicitor, E. S. P. Haynes, but no one had taken her seriously. The day she died, her solicitor received a letter saying “I cannot endure things any longer.” Her husband, meanwhile, received the note, “You have killed me.” An inquest ruled her death as “suicide during temporary insanity.” " (ibid.)

"(...) they [AC’s former students Olivia Haddon and Vittoria Cremers] also led Neuburg to the far–fetched belief that Crowley had jealously caused Jeanne Heyse’s suicide. A passage he would read years later in Magick in Theory and Practice would only confirm Victor’s suspicions (...). This passage was likely a case of Crowley, having heard the allegations against him, recounting the story in a way that bolstered his magical image." (ibid.)


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 Anonymous
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14/10/2018 8:04 pm  

"This story has been cooked to imply the actress’s suicide was Crowley’s doing, another myth for sure, but one Crowley helped to stoke."

Reminds me of certain US magickal warzones, when magicians would claim responsibility for individuals' misfortunes/self-destruction like terrorists after a plane wreck.

"...he used the myth to warn of what could happen to those who interfered with initiates’ progress..."

This also seems to have become part of the cultural tradition (at least back in my formative years). The knowledge of the "cautionary tales" circulated over folks who walk away has done more to keep me focused on better health and success during the down times than any therapist.


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 Anonymous
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14/10/2018 8:45 pm  

Jamie J Barter (Which name do you prefer, btw?):

And it was just after this, I think, that A.C. wrote the otherwise fine essay “Duty”, in which he laid out all the moral points which ought to have a bearing upon Thelemic behaviour by the individual, e.g. not committing robbery, etc.

Thanks for making that connection. One of my current side projects is doing some chronological textual analysis to look at how themes and ideas developed over time in his writings. I think the tendency of the general Thelemic public to focus on the class document designation for the "weight" of his writings (or worse, to treat all of his writing as prophetic guidance) without the historical context gives rise to a lot of the problems we're talking about. The ahistorical/dispensationalist scripture approach didn't work out well for Christianity, and isn't going to do any better for Thelema. (The "Aiwas said it, Crowley wrote it and I believe it" attitude was doing a lot of damage during the time when I was last active.)

I dug out the 2011 LAShTAL discussion on "Duty"; it was attributed to his 1921-22 writing period without any coming forward to dispute that dating. Much was also being made of the fact that it was an unpublished doc without any "official" document class designation (an interesting comparison with the nature of the diary as a place of private reflection.)

For ease of discussion, a handy link to the essay: http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/duty.html

Some relevant sections:

3. Abstain from all interferences with other wills.
“Beware lest any force another, King against King!” [AL II:24]
(The love and war in the previous injunctions are of the nature of sport, where one respects, and learns from the opponent, but never interferes with him, outside the actual game.) To seek to dominate or influence another is to seek to deform or to destroy him; and he is a necessary part of one’s own Universe, that is, of one’s self.

C. Your duty to mankind.
“The word of Sin is Restriction.” [AL I:41]
The essence of crime is that it restricts the freedom of the individual outraged. (Thus, murder restricts his right to live; robbery, his right to enjoy the fruits of his labour; coining, his right to the guarantee of the state that he shall barter in security; etc.) It is then the common duty to prevent crime by segregating the criminal, and by the threat of reprisals; also, to teach the criminal that his acts, being analyzed, are contrary to his own True Will. (This may often be accomplished by taking from him the right which he has denied to others; as by outlawing the thief, so that he feels constant anxiety for the safety of his own possessions, removed from the ward of the State.) The rule is quite simple. He who violated any right declares magically that it does not exist; therefore it no longer does so, for him.

Crime being a direct spiritual violation of the Law of Thelema, it should not be tolerated in the community...


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Jamie J Barter
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17/10/2018 2:12 pm  

@dom :

D:--- I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him.
J:--- Sorry but I don’t see the connection –– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly?
D:--- I wasn’t discussing infallibility but the opposite, his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone ‘magically’ like an ideal to live up to.

That was why I put “infallibility (or not)” in brackets. Dom, you do make debating difficult – possible progress in other matters of Logic notwithstanding - like trying to get blood out of a stone here. References too brief & obscure. Unless I am alone and mistaken in this perception, which I don’t think I am. So you don't think the significance of Liber AL was there and dawned on A.C. early on, then - and that he was just not acknowledging it up front? Out of interest, when would you say this dawning realization occurred?

D:--- an ideal to live up to.
J:--- What — you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?
D:--- So ‘magical energy’ is like electricity, it’s not inherently ‘evil’ or ‘good’. It can be used by someone who was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child and by someone who was not was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child.
Does Criowley’s Thelemic practices deal with childhood conditioning issues? No they don’t.

This all seems rather like a collection on non sequiturs to me old china, not least the sudden Mel Brooks clip: part of the difficulty in debating mentioned above. But to deal with your last point, Criowley’s Thelemic practices may not directly deal with these issues (since for one thing psycho-analysis was in its infancy when he was writing all the libri), but they would certainly be dealt with "internally" by the magician (i.e., AC here) having gone within their “inner space” and confronting the neuroses, psychoses etc that arise from the depths of prolonged and ongoing meditative practices.

D:--- “Son, you're on your own”
Yep, giddyup a dingdong there: load on up, ‘n’ saddle on out... (Great Non Sequiturs of Our Time, Part 1034)

@Shiva :

I was taught to “never use a pentagram on a human being.” So, one day in 1976, Frater Mont’s girlfriend underwent one of her many flip-outs. I had heard about them, but then I walked into one. She was over-the-edge insane. I asked her if she wanted help. She said “Yes.” So I sat her down on a stool and shot a pentagram into her back at the level of the Solar Plexus. She immediately regained her normal, sane composure.
“Thank you,” she said.

Whoever was it who could have taught this Shiva? I can’t remember ever seeing anything of the sort in any of the AA/ OTO literature. It seems rather dictatorial as it stands, without any conditions or exceptions or “get out clauses”. It wasn’t a teaching that you took to heart, then? Particularly as it seemed to have been proven wrong from your own practical experience. Did you ever see any merit or value at all to this (so-called) teaching?

@ignant666 :

Once more, the most likely translation of AC’s “a Circe who was bewitching brethren” is “a woman who was sexually attractive, and would have sex with someone else, but not with me”.
Ha ha! Ain’t it just --- Isadora Duncan would have been another “Circe” having the effrontery to have spurned him in that case!

@Serpent252, thanks for the supplemental material.

@SrMNA :

Jamie J Barter (Which name do you prefer, btw?)
Jamie will be just fine (Norma(n)’s OK too, if you prefer…) And with you, "Soror"?

(The “Aiwas said it, Crowley wrote it and I believe it [so We Had it, and you all knew about it!]” attitude was doing a lot of damage during the time when I was last active.)
Did you find that so in the [©].O.T.O.? Could you say any more about this damage?

I dug out the 2011 LAShTAL discussion on “Duty”;
I don’t remember reading that before (as for one thing, it was shortly “before my time”). It seems to have engendered a lot of posts when it first emerged, and then fizzled out of pop shortly afterwards like so many of them seem to do (I’d quite forgotten how prodigious Azidonis was with posting at one time – where is he nowadays? He only ever seems to make a rare appearance these days along with Los). The thrust seemed to be towards the fact that “Duty” was heavily edited as if for publication as an “official document” but somehow circumstances intervened (cf. similarly with Liber Aleph, Golden Twigs, Crowley’s I Ching etc).

it was attributed to his 1921-22 writing period without any coming forward to dispute that dating.
Somehow I seemed to have it in my mind that it was 1924 (the year he also claimed to have made Ipsissimus). Perhaps by then he’d finally known better?!?

Much was also being made of the fact that it was an unpublished doc without any “official” document class designation (an interesting comparison with the nature of the diary as a place of private reflection.)
This did not invalidate the ethical considerations within it however. And yes, Duty did mention murder viz. it restricts the victim’s right to live, in a most literal sense:

C. Your duty to mankind.
“The word of Sin is Restriction.” [AL I:41]
The essence of crime is that it restricts the freedom of the individual outraged. (Thus, murder restricts his right to live; robbery, his right to enjoy the fruits of his labour; coining, his right to the guarantee of the state that he shall barter in security; etc.)[…] Crime being a direct spiritual violation of the Law of Thelema, it should not be tolerated in the community...

The entire essay, which could in theory have been written any time up to the 1920s, can best be summed up as “Fine words” betrayed by hypocritical “shabby actions” as shown by the past behaviour of AC or The Beast in his IX operations/Opuses with his “bride” the Scarlet Woman, and which make his deplorable actions in this direction to terminate Matlack Foster with extreme prejudice even harder to comprehend. “Don’t do as I do, do as I say” seems to be the ultimate prime directive here (or in invisible ink and written between the lines, “Think for yourselves you empty-headed Athenians”)

With a pinch of the dust of the grand Wazoo
N Joy


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Shiva
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17/10/2018 5:01 pm  

JB: I can’t remember ever seeing anything of the sort in any of the AA/ OTO literature.

There are three (3) types of transmission: Oral, Symbols, and Direct. I was referring to "Oral" teachings, so that's why you couldn't find it in any literature.


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dom
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17/10/2018 11:51 pm  

The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another? There are parallels to be found here with Crowley’s account in Chapter 21 of Magick in Theory and Practice where he wrote: “The Master Therion once found it necessary to slay a Circe who was bewitching brethren. He merely walked to the door of her room, and drew an astral T [symbolic of Saturn and death] with an astral dagger. Within 48 hours she shot herself.” However the activity described below took place in 1915 — the same year when he assumed the grade of Magus 9=2 and therefore one assumes ought to have known better, although Churton fails (or is careful not) to offer any judgement himself here

Jamie very good question. A 9=2 should know better .. what can you do about those grade claimants and their transgressions? Nothing...you're on your own. Who are you to question the actions of a 9=2? It's good that you are questioning it. Actions? He thought mean things about someone whilst having sex..... is that so bad? Yeah it's pretty petty I guess but deos it stand in a court of law?

Hahah.

The Maharishi, he let a lot of people down also apparently but does that take anything away from the T.M. revolution he instigated and all of the benefits provided thereby? What about Jung who may have apparently had sex with more than one of his patients? Does that alleged vile behaviour devalue his theories on Self, shadow and Synchronicity? Well I never heard Jung write about how he sneakily got laid via his private practice but I did hear about AC cursing "circes", which one is the better man , the honest one or the creepy liar? Is honesty/confessions relevant morally? Probably not.

He fvcked up ….maybe......what can you do? You're on your own. Deal with it for yourself. I was going to say if this has destroyed your idealization about Thelema and Crowley then you could always discard it and get on board the kind-hearted Gurdjieff train...….but maybe he too could be an asshole and therefore a hypocrite?


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elitemachinery
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20/10/2018 8:03 am  

@jamiejbarter said:

The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?

"Do What Thou Wilt Shall be the Whole of the LAW"

Does NOT mean "do whatever you like with impunity." Actions have consequences...ALWAYS. If you choose to act in such a manner (wishing people that you don't like dead) then you will suffer the consequences. The least of which may be finding it difficult to make friends or garner support for your life ventures. Unless of course your community agrees with you, and said person is hated by many, in which case perhaps there will be no noticeable consequences.

I don't believe any Holy Man would waste his energy on such things. While Crowley gave himself a lot of titles and grades in his pursuit of knowledge he was clearly not without faults and not above selfish pursuits such as this.

There seems to be a process when one becomes aware of Thelema in which the initiate hears "Do Whatever You Like" and then slowly aligns their actions with the more noble "Do What Thou Wilt" as they slowly realize that actions have consequences.


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Jamie J Barter
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20/10/2018 4:08 pm  

@Shiva :

There are three (3) types of transmission: Oral, Symbols, and Direct. I was referring to “Oral” teachings, so that’s why you couldn’t find it in any literature.
I would have thought that Oral transmission was pretty Direct. If the use of "Direct" here was meant to refer to something written down, you'd miss all of the nuances of expression, gestures, body movement, pauses, etc all of which would come with Oral recitative.

It still seems a very odd thing for your teacher (Ray Burlingame?) to have taught. Presumably the thinking would have been that using a pentagram in this way was somehow meant to harm the person on whom it was being employed? But seeing as how one of its purposes would be to banish negative influences from the environment, it's rather hard to see how anything else other than benefit could accrue.

@dom :

A 9=2 should know better .. what can you do about those grade claimants and their transgressions? Nothing…you’re on your own. Who are you to question the actions of a 9=2? It’s good that you are questioning it. Actions? He thought mean things about someone whilst having sex….. is that so bad? Yeah it’s pretty petty I guess but deos it stand in a court of law?
Hahah.

Hmm! As I said before to Michael, and hopefully will clarify further to you again by my remarks you are reading now, it wasn't just cussin' like a case of simple road rage or thinking "mean things about someone whilst having sex". By carrying out the IX (repeatedly) with all of his accumulated magical expertise & experience and unequivocally anticipating a successful result --- whether it works a magickal technique or not --- is relevant to the central issue: in fully expecting that the inoffensive cuckold drop dead as a cause-and-effect consequence is emphatically not in accordance with everything A.C. otherwise believed and published about the Law of Thelema. Do you not consider that thought seeds, as well as precedes, action then? Some people believe thoughts or "mentations" themselves to have an actual manifested basis on the subtler planes, and this is also reflected in Cabbala especially with regard to the third World of Yetzirah.

The Maharishi [...] What about Jung [...] I did hear about AC [... -] which one is the better man , the honest one or the creepy liar? Is honesty/confessions relevant morally? Probably not.
So you believe somebody possibly having pervy sex is in the same league as pre-meditated attempted murder then?

He fvcked up ….maybe……what can you do? You’re on your own. Deal with it for yourself.
Why Yes! --- you read my comments at the end of my previous posting in reply to Sr MNA, I suppose --- about "think for yourselves" being the invisible ultimate prime directive here?

I was going to say if this has destroyed your idealization about Thelema and Crowley then you could always discard it and get on board the kind-hearted Gurdjieff train…….but maybe he too could be an asshole and therefore a hypocrite?
Everyone can be an asshole when the mood takes, but not everyone has the capability and the intention of being a cold blooded killer.

You didn't say when you thought the significance of Liber AL dawned on A.C., or comment on my remark about Thelemic practices managing to deal with childhood conditioning issues in the course of and through depth-meditation. I take it that you agreed with it therefore, although it would have been interesting to see any reason you might have had for disagreeing.

@elitemachinery :

clearly not without faults and not above selfish pursuits such as this.
And I imagine wanting to do away with another person would have to count amongst the acme of selfish pursuits!?

There seems to be a process when one becomes aware of Thelema in which the initiate hears “Do Whatever You Like” and then slowly aligns their actions with the more noble “Do What Thou Wilt” as they slowly realize that actions have consequences.
Yes, although as was remarked earlier one for various reasons would have thought A.C. would be a bit above the level of run-of-the-mill crop of initiates whose lower personality dictates their actions. I'm increasingly wondering how much the superego, or else conscience, might play a part in the development of one's psyche towards "taking the next step".

Gnothi Seayton,
N Joy


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dom
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20/10/2018 5:04 pm  

@jamiebarter

it wasn’t just cussin’ like a case of simple road rage or thinking “mean things about someone whilst having sex”. By carrying out the IX (repeatedly) with all of his accumulated magical expertise & experience and unequivocally anticipating a successful result — whether it works a magickal technique or not — is relevant to the central issue: in fully expecting that the inoffensive cuckold drop dead as a cause-and-effect consequence is emphatically not in accordance with everything A.C. otherwise believed and published about the Law of Thelema.

First off, I think the wording of it "I found it necessary" implies self-defence ie he was under psychic attack and had to roll with his survival instinct. The definitions of "circe" are wishy-washy like "goblin" or "ghoul". Secondly "magical intent" devoid of physical; effect is irrelevant in courts of law. In fact it would get laughed out.

So you believe somebody possibly having pervy sex is in the same league as pre-meditated attempted murder then?

Crowley didn't do anything to her on the physical plane. Maharishi allegedly physically made a pass at the meditation disciple and Jung allegedly allowed his physical instincts to take full effect in his patients. The answer is no basically, otherwise all men would be convicted killers for as little boys they go through the Oedipal phase whereby they wish their fathers to die.

Your line of thinking here would be aiding and abetting the Witchfinder General to get on with executing those girls who thought bad things about people via the use of a needle and a voodoo doll or whatever. Medievalism basically.

Do you not consider that thought seeds, as well as precedes, action then? Some people believe thoughts or “mentations” themselves to have an actual manifested basis on the subtler planes, and this is also reflected in Cabbala especially with regard to the third World of Yetzirah.

Some people believe that Uri Geller doesn't physically bend the stems of spoons before he does his act…… so what? Once again, laughed out of court.

Why Yes! — you read my comments at the end of my previous posting in reply to Sr MNA, I suppose — about “think for yourselves” being the invisible ultimate prime directive here?

Yeah what was that quote from AC about not wanting a flock of sheep etc?

You didn’t say when you thought the significance of Liber AL dawned on A.C.,

I don't know I'd have to trawl through the Confessions to find it.

or comment on my remark about Thelemic practices managing to deal with childhood conditioning issues in the course of and through depth-meditation. I take it that you agreed with it therefore, although it would have been interesting to see any reason you might have had for disagreeing.

The variables involved are too complex to give a definite answer. If we consider that AC said once he mastered asana he could slip into physical comfort anytime after 10 minutes practice and also that he stated that "there is no greater purgative other than pranayama" then yeah these practices can help... sometimes but check out Colin Wilson's AC bio for all of the neurotic retarded behaviour...what happened then? Were these purgative practices neglected or maybe they weren't but they still couldn't help exorcise neurotic impulses.


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Shiva
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20/10/2018 5:59 pm  

JB: I would have thought that Oral transmission was pretty Direct.

DIRECT Transmission means the guru/teacher simply transfers his/her state of consciousness to/into the student. No words, no talking, no symbols.

The student is (temporarily) transported to a higher level, thus gaining insight into the goal. DIRECT Transmission is the first step in dzogschen Tibetan initiation.


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Shiva
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20/10/2018 6:19 pm  

elite: Actions have consequences…ALWAYS.

Right. It's called The Law of Cause and Effect. It operates on all levels.

The problem is, sometimes the effect comes MUCH later than the cause, and the dimwit fails to see the connection. This is true for normal humanity and the beginning spiritual aspirant.

But the advanced aspirant has sped up his/her "time lag" in effects, and therefore gets quicker responses. It comes to the point where he/she is immediately able to see what causes produces which effects. It's called "learning."

On the physical plane, effects come quickly. Fire produces burns. Falling bricks smash one's toe. But by the time we get to the mental plane, certain thoughts produce certain effects with a time lag (for the average dimwit).

By the time anyone gets to the abstract (causal) mental plane, which is Tiphareth up to Chesed, he or she has experienced a "quickened" response rate, and he/she learns very quickly how thoughts will impact him/her.

From Ninah and upward into the wild blue yonder, personal karma is no longer a factor, but cause & effect are still operative on a "cosmic" level.

Another problem is that a Magister Templi (and higher) dwells above the Abyss, but his/her vehicle is still bumping around at Hod and Malkuth, et al. So who knows who is Therion and who is the demon Crowley? Any 8=3 "understands" who is who. Everyone below the Abyss has to figure it out mentally, and that's subject to error, because it's all illusion.


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Jamie J Barter
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23/10/2018 2:15 pm  

@Shiva :

JB:--- I would have thought that Oral transmission was pretty Direct.
SH:---DIRECT Transmission means the guru/teacher simply transfers his/her state of consciousness to/into the student. No words, no talking, no symbols.
The student is (temporarily) transported to a higher level, thus gaining insight into the goal. DIRECT Transmission is the first step in dzogschen Tibetan initiation.

Yes, that’s pretty DIRECT.
I still don’t get how the Pentagram can be regarded as having disadvantageous consequences – I hope any relative Lashtalian newcomers to the art & science of magick reading this won’t go away with the idea that there’s any weight behind it, for one thing it certainly isn’t in the Thelemic (AA / OTO) canon. There’s no reason why there should be any negative comeback to anyone projecting forth a pentagram with honorable intent.

Another problem is that a Magister Templi (and higher) dwells above the Abyss, but his/her vehicle is still bumping around at Hod and Malkuth, et al. So who knows who is Therion and who is the demon Crowley? Any 8=3 “understands” who is who. Everyone below the Abyss has to figure it out mentally, and that’s subject to error, because it’s all illusion
Do you think the entity (whose totality we could refer to by convenient shorthand as AC) was operating on a particular level when he did these IX workings with his Scarlet Woman (and if so which), and how do you reckon the karma of these acts worked itself out?

@dom :

First off, I think the wording of it “I found it necessary” implies self-defence ie he was under psychic attack and had to roll with his survival instinct.
Where does AC state he was under any sort of psychic attack from MF? And even supposing he were, don’t you think he would seriously not rate MF, as a tyro, to be any sort of a serious magical contender (unlike eg Mathers)? Also “implies” seems like you may be reading rather a lot yourself into it.

Secondly “magical intent” devoid of physical; effect is irrelevant in courts of law. In fact it would get laughed out.
Who’s talking about a court of law here? Of course nothing magical would stand up in it, as the pageant of history has so often proved (Looking Glass, Laughing Torso, Motta v. McMurtry, etc).

Crowley didn’t do anything to her on the physical plane. Maharishi allegedly physically made a pass at the meditation disciple and Jung allegedly allowed his physical instincts to take full effect in his patients. The answer is no basically, otherwise all men would be convicted killers for as little boys they go through the Oedipal phase whereby they wish their fathers to die.
Two allegedlys with a basically thrown in to sum up. And so would this be a demonstration of your newly-acquired application of the laws of Logic here?

Your line of thinking here would be aiding and abetting the Witchfinder General to get on with executing those girls who thought bad things about people via the use of a needle and a voodoo doll or whatever. Medievalism basically.
My line of thinking would do nothing of the sort. Although fairly plain, you don’t seem to know what my line of thinking is, basically speaking, dom!

J:--- Do you not consider that thought seeds, as well as precedes, action then? Some people believe thoughts or “mentations” themselves to have an actual manifested basis on the subtler planes, and this is also reflected in Cabbala especially with regard to the third World of Yetzirah.
D:--- Some people believe that Uri Geller doesn’t physically bend the stems of spoons before he does his act…… so what? Once again, laughed out of court.

Order, Order in the court-room!
Once again, there is a phantom court-room, phantom judge and phantom… oh, well I suppose the rest of the Lashtalians who are reading could be a form of jury - it’s stretching the analogy, but keep it if you like. I take it you are disagreeing with me, but I’m in the dark as to how or why: I thought I was making myself plain, and Shiva was also expressing the same idea to elitemachinery but a bit longer and with more “facts”

Yeah what was that quote from AC about not wanting a flock of sheep etc?
There were more than one, it was a theme he liked returning to (sort of like you with the court room!) Stuff like people needing to disregard everything he said, not trusting him an iota, that he was liable to lead people up the merry garden path round and round all the smelly rose bushes… that sort of thing.

J:--- You didn’t say when you thought the significance of Liber AL dawned on A.C.,
D:--- I don’t know I’d have to trawl through the Confessions to find it.

Oh gawd. See, this is what I meant before about the difficulties of trying to debate with you being like trying to extract blood from a stone. This is one of your most common gambits, although I don’t know if you consciously do it to be a pain or not: you mention a reference vaguely in connection with something. I then ask you for a more precise reference. You eventually give it to me, after sometimes two or three tries, by which time the original point has become lost or at least well obscured. I then ask you the original point or question, but perhaps not quite at such length or in as much detail as earlier so as not to waste everyone’s time – a false hope, as you then only answer part of the original question or point, or affect not to notice it at all and claim that you need further explanation.. Do you notice if all this has a familiar ring?
Well, it shouldn’t take you too long to trawl through the old Confessions, should it? As you’ve read it so many times, I mean. Let me know when you finally locate the reference! And for a bonus point, reply straight away with an answer to my concomitant enquiry.

The variables involved are too complex to give a definite answer. If we consider that AC said once he mastered asana he could slip into physical comfort anytime after 10 minutes practice and also that he stated that “there is no greater purgative other than pranayama” then yeah these practices can help... sometimes
Could be maybe... I don’t know... but then again, perhaps... it all depends, you know, basically...

but check out Colin Wilson’s AC bio for all of the neurotic retarded behaviour…what happened then? Were these purgative practices neglected or maybe they weren’t but they still couldn’t help exorcise neurotic impulses.
Again you don’t have any useful references for anybody to check out to bolster up your remarks. Just saying, that’s all! We should also bear in mind that Colin Wilson, although a very fine writer at his best, was not really conversant with all of the facts we are aware of today when he wrote the biography, twenty years before Churton’s which included many of AC’s unpublished diary extracts (---if they are all similar to this, though, it’s no wonder William Breeze is delaying bringing them out! What an absolute crock of a PR job!)

N Joy


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Shiva
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23/10/2018 4:17 pm  

JB: it certainly isn’t in the Thelemic (AA / OTO) canon.

Yes, you're right. If AC didn't specifically write about any topic, then we must obviously give it no credit, even if it lies within the realm of our own experience. After all, AC covered absolutely everything in his writings.


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Michael Staley
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23/10/2018 7:56 pm  

@JamieJBarter

We should also bear in mind that Colin Wilson, although a very fine writer at his best, was not really conversant with all of the facts we are aware of today when he wrote the biography, twenty years before Churton’s which included many of AC’s unpublished diary extracts (—if they are all similar to this, though, it’s no wonder William Breeze is delaying bringing them out! What an absolute crock of a PR job!)

Yes, most of the diaries are unpublished, but since you live in London it would be easy enough for you to consult them at the Warburg. I know that since Yorke died in the early 1980s, the Caliphate O.T.O. have purchased a few diaries that weren't in the Yorke Collection, but most of them are there.


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christibrany
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23/10/2018 9:53 pm  

Mick,

Is one allowed to photo copy and or photograph any of the material in the Warburg collection?

What is to stop someone from putting out his diaries on their own? As in publish.

curious

Chris


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Michael Staley
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23/10/2018 10:29 pm  

@christibrany

They do allow some photocopying I think, but it's for private use. If you study in the Gerald Yorke Collection, you have to sign an undertaking that you recognise that the material falls within the Crowley copyright and that you will not publish anything. This is annoying if you are studying material which is not by Crowley and does not fall within the Crowley copyright - by Achad, for instance, or by Parsons, or - again, for instance - the Golden Dawn material which they have.

A few years ago someone photographed a Crowley diary at the Warburg and published it. He then seemed surprised when threatened by the copyright-holder, and when his Reader's Ticket was cancelled by the Warburg. So yes, there's nothing to stop anybody publishing, say, the diaries, just so long as their wallets are more capacious than an elephant's scrotum. Seriously, though, material by Crowley that has not been published remains in copyright until 2039; my guess is that the copyright-holder, having lost potential royalties on material previously published in Crowley's lifetime, will be zealous to protect what they still have.

Don't try this at home, Chris.


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ignant666
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23/10/2018 11:18 pm  

I would agree that the (c)OTO are very litigious, and very anxious to prevent anyone publishing any work by AC.

It is a pity that this zealous policing of the alleged Crowley "copyrights" is not accompanied by the (c)OTO publishing any work by him. I am confident the (c)OTO edition of the diaries will still be "in proofs", where it has been for at least a decade, in 2039.

One is reminded of Aesop's fable of "The Dog In The Manger".

It is my understanding that unpublished works by AC written in his own name are currently in the public domain in the US, see

https://copyright.cornell.edu/publicdomain

However, unpublished pseudonymous works (such as anything by, eg, The Master Therion, or other aliases) remain in copyright in the US through 2067 (see same source).

Most likely, much of AC's published work (those works that were first published in the US, eg Magick Without Tears) has actually been in the public domain in the US for decades, due to failure to timely renew any copyrights 28 years after initial publication, or to comply with any of the other formalities that were once required to retain US copyright.

Crowley works first published outside the US entered the US public domain when they came out of copyright in the Uk at the end of 2017.

So no published work by Crowley, or unpublished work in his own name, is in copyright in the US at this time

However, the (c)OTO have "deep pockets" (legal expression for "beaucoup cash") and will most likely spend anyone inclined to test these theories into the ground.


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Michael Staley
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24/10/2018 12:12 am  

@ignant666

Sounds very good, ignant (or bad, from the point of view of the copyright-holder). I had a look at the pdf to which you linked, but I've had a bit too much wine with our evening meal to make sense of it it just now. Perhaps a clearer, more forensic mind, such as Jamie's, will fare better.


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Jamie J Barter
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25/10/2018 7:08 pm  

@Michael Staley:

Yes, most of the diaries are unpublished, but since you live in London it would be easy enough for you to consult them at the Warburg.
Yes, I read the diaries in the Warburg way back in the day... and was rather disappointed with most of them, I have to confess, expecting more of the esoterically detailed type of thing to be found in Grant & Symonds’ (and Skinner’s) Magical Records of the Beast. Instead, of reading a lot of stuff from the 30s and 40s especially along the lines of ‘looking for cunt’, ‘greatest fuck in recorded history’, ‘had toothache and tons of diarrhoea’, that sort of thing... Oh, and being sick from sudden acute shortage of heroin too.

Hence therefore, my comment on the ©.O.T.O.’s planned undertaking to eventually bring out all the diaries (for what, the last 20 years or so?) promising to be a rather unenviable position in terms of positively promoting and promulgating A.C.’s legacy, and with material like this as well to deal with (i.e. the Churton extracts from the 1916 diaries of A.C.’s intention to do away with Foster) I reckon it will prove to be a rather excruciating public relations exercise.

@dom :

Last month you asked how could anybody possibly consider A.C. to be a black magician because he was the Prophet of the Aeon. Then three days later you dramatically changed course. Now in your last posting, with all your talk of magick being ‘devoid of physical effects’ you seemed to have switched back again to a more James Randi level. What is your current, that is, this week’s position? On the position of A.C. being unable to do any wrong on account of his status & attempted murder being no big deal? --- I don’t recall seeing it.

@Shiva :

Yes, you’re right. If AC didn’t specifically write about any topic, then we must obviously give it no credit, even if it lies within the realm of our own experience. After all, AC covered absolutely everything in his writings.
But Shiva, I wasn’t in any way putting forward AC & Thelema as the be-all, end-all there. For one thing, I put “for one thing” (which you have cleverly managed to exorcise from the beginning of the sentence quoted) because (unless I be gravely mistaken) this is a forum & a website which deals primarily with the legacy of Aleister Crowley --- and which therefore amounts to the same thing as the “Thelemic (AA / OTO) canon referred to.

Naturally there are other sources on this sort of thing, Alice Bailey, Theosophy, all of that jazz, but I was initially inquiring (given your heritage also) if this “teaching” had any such sort of a ‘Thelemic’ antecedent as it seemed a bit foreign to it. However what seems a bit odd having brought the matter up in the first place is that you seem to be rather reluctant to discuss it in any further detail, eg why you might have paid attention to the prohibition in the first place, what possible reason(s) or justification there may have been behind it, &c

I was taught to “never use a pentagram on a human being.”
The apparent injunction and prohibition on the employment of the Pentagram also amounts to the propagation of superstition (which dom might well describe as “mediaeval” - in fact I’m surprised (and rather disappointed 🙁 ) he hasn’t jumped on your case yet saying your unscientific caveat would be laughed out of court!)

Forensically yours,
N Joy


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Shiva
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26/10/2018 1:29 am  

JB: Last month you asked how could anybody possibly consider A.C. to be a black magician because he was the Prophet of the Aeon. Then three days later you dramatically changed course. Now in your last posting, with all your talk of magick being ‘devoid of physical effects’ you seemed to have switched back again to a more James Randi level. What is your current, that is, this week’s position?

Loose quote: "Two members of the IX* (one of whom might use the D-initial) have the duty of constantly opposing the intent of the Grand Master. They may use tomfoolery, opposite viewpoints, or other trickery to try to unseat the King. They alone are not eligible, of all the IX* candidates, for succession to the Throne."


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dom
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26/10/2018 8:44 pm  

@jamiebarter

Last month you asked how could anybody possibly consider A.C. to be a black magician because he was the Prophet of the Aeon.

Yes I did didn't I?

Then three days later you dramatically changed course.

Yes, education/someone pointing out a mistaken line of thinking works fast sometimes doesn't it?

Now in your last posting, with all your talk of magick being ‘devoid of physical effects’ you seemed to have switched back again to a more James Randi level.

No I am asking you to consider that Crowley was not "evil" per se by society's standards (hence my court of law scenario which you, strangely enough, keep trying to poke fun at...) because he once attended to thinking mean thoughts about someone whilst he did a ritual of some sort however you are correct in bringing me back to the OP which is asking if AC was a black magician.

I'll ask you a question, is someone a "black magician" permanently or can it be temporary? Think of a juvenile-delinquent who straightens himself out in adulthood. Are they a criminal in adulthood even though their crimes were committed decades earlier?


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dom
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27/10/2018 1:00 am  

@jamiebarter

By the way in actuality my initial response was not fully comprehended by you. I just reviewed it and here it is again;

How can the prophet of the aeon be a ‘black magician’? Your OP is a null and void question if you look at it like that and this probably explains the lack of interest.

That is, it wasn't actually my opinion as such if you read what I said and properly. Anyway, the point was that maybe it was Crowley's True Will to terminate someone else...….. sometimes. It's down to the individual and the circumstances and what the instigator perceives to be the long term effects of it all. Like I said we already had a long moral relativism /True Will thread somewhere with Los etc and essentially, this thread is really about a rehash of that. It's a complex subject which brings into account the genealogy of morals and whether or not Abrahamic ethics and 'good' and 'evil' are human constructs or not.

If you want to bring karma into it then I guess you would have to explain how a Word of an Aeon would pay karmic debts off? Maybe AC has now incarnated and is suffering accordingly for that curse documented in the OP.....

Apologies on the double post.


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Michael Staley
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28/10/2018 12:19 am  

@dom

Anyway, the point was that maybe it was Crowley’s True Will to terminate someone else…….. sometimes.

Why might it be Crowley's "True Will" to "terminate" somebody? And how far would you take this as a matter of principle? Might it be someone's "True Will" to burgle your home or assault you, for instance?

Like I said we already had a long moral relativism /True Will thread somewhere with Los etc and essentially, this thread is really about a rehash of that.

That thread is etched in my memory, but no I don't think that the present thread "is really about a rehash of that". Besides which, even if it was, I don't think that would invalidate the present thread. I'm sure there have been plenty of threads here on LAShTAL over the years which have overlapped to a greater or a lesser degree. I wouldn't want someone who intended to post a new thread to have to spend hours searching through old threads in case something like had been started before.


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dom
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28/10/2018 1:20 am  

Why might it be Crowley’s “True Will” to “terminate” somebody?

I don't know, why do you think?


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Michael Staley
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28/10/2018 8:38 am  

@dom

I don’t know, why do you think?

You're the one proposing that that might be the case. Now it seems that you can't think of any reason why that should be so. Kinda wild stuff, dom.

The concept of individual 'True Will' doesn't mean that everything we do is in line with our 'True Will'. We seem to be a rag-bag of often-contradictory wills, desires and compulsions. One of Spare's most interesting pictures is entitled 'Man is a Bundle of Ids', which I think encapsulates the situation succinctly. Thus if you think that everything that Crowley did was in line with his 'True Will', you must have a pretty wide-ranging concept of what 'True Will' is.


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dom
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28/10/2018 12:10 pm  

You’re the one proposing that that might be the case. Now it seems that you can’t think of any reason why that should be so. Kinda wild stuff, dom.

No, you asked why 'would it be X's true will to do this , that or the other'. Well, no man can answer for why it is X's true will to do this, that or the other. That's what I was getting at. In fact asking why in relation to true will is a pit pretty much nailed by Hadit in chapter 2 of AL re; lines 30 and 31 of said chapter.

The concept of individual ‘True Will’ doesn’t mean that everything we do is in line with our ‘True Will’. We seem to be a rag-bag of often-contradictory wills, desires and compulsions.

Well hardly a big revelation by Austin Spare there seeing as Christ nailed this concept 2000 years ago when he performed an exorcism on the village loon-tune. In fact I presume that Christ as a rabbi (so the story went) would've borrowed such concepts from even older sources of Cabbalistic thought which outline the different and conflicting parts of the human soul. These in turn may've come down from ancient Egyptian sources.

Thus if you think that everything that Crowley did was in line with his ‘True Will’, you must have a pretty wide-ranging concept of what ‘True Will’ is.

I wasn't specifically discussing "everything that Crowley did" in my last answer but about a hypothetical example of him doing his true will.

In relation to the OP Jamie Barter is querying whether this particular situation involving AC terminating someone else is in line with AC's true will or not. As of now, the evidence has been weighed up and yeah it looks dodgy and petty and "animal" ie it looked like AC was not in line with his HGA and was deviating into some sort of pit hence yeah it looked like "black magic". Jamie has not yet answered my question though whether this one incident makes AC a "black magician" or was he generally not a black magician who slipped up here and there.


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Michael Staley
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28/10/2018 12:49 pm  

@dom

In relation to the OP Jamie Barter is querying whether this particular situation involving AC terminating someone else is in line with AC’s true will or not.

Well, I'm with you there dom, insofar as we cannot know whether or not a particular act is in line with someone's 'True Will', whatever that might signify precisely.


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dom
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28/10/2018 2:18 pm  

Well, I’m with you there dom, insofar as we cannot know whether or not a particular act is in line with someone’s ‘True Will’, whatever that might signify precisely

But you agree that in this case (the OP) the evidence strongly suggests that AC's Nefesh, Ruach and Guf were in the driving seat during those particular ritualistic actions and it was therefore not his True Will? If anyone else thinks otherwise please provide the reasons why.


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Shiva
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28/10/2018 3:32 pm  

D: If anyone else thinks otherwise please provide the reasons why.

It is the absolute rule of Adepts to Never Interfere with the actions of another Adept. This holds true on the mental (judgment) plane as well as any other plane whereby a person wastes their time and mental energy criticizing the motives/actions of someone else who is not in their presence and is not exerting any influence or effect upon said person.

You know, "Judge not lest ye be laughed at."


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dom
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28/10/2018 8:19 pm  

D: If anyone else thinks otherwise please provide the reasons why.
It is the absolute rule of Adepts to Never Interfere with the actions of another Adept. This holds true on the mental (judgment) plane as well as any other plane whereby a person wastes their time and mental energy criticizing the motives/actions of someone else who is not in their presence and is not exerting any influence or effect upon said person.
You know, “Judge not lest ye be laughed at.”

So you agree that Crowley was an Adept and not as the person who made the original post seems to be arguing for that he was a "black magician"?


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Michael Staley
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28/10/2018 9:45 pm  

@dom

But you agree that in this case (the OP) the evidence strongly suggests that AC’s Nefesh, Ruach and Guf were in the driving seat during those particular ritualistic actions and it was therefore not his True Will? If anyone else thinks otherwise please provide the reasons why.

What evidence is it that "strongly suggests" to you that these various aspects of Crowley were in the "driving seat" rather than his 'True Will'?

So you agree that Crowley was an Adept and not as the person who made the original post seems to be arguing for that he was a “black magician”?

The clickbait title notwithstanding, I don't read Jamie's posts as suggesting that he was a "black magician", but that he got up to a few dodgy things in his time such as the incident that Jamie quotes in his opening post.


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Tiger
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29/10/2018 3:52 am  

I have heard one has to be careful/attentive among adepts ;
because the natural balancing equilibrium maneuver can quickly sail/cycle the unwary through its course .


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Shiva
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29/10/2018 3:15 pm  

D: So you agree that Crowley was an Adept and not as the person who made the original post seems to be arguing for that he was a “black magician”?

I recognize AC as an Adept. Unfortunately, he had a toxic persona. As to the "black magician," I have no speculation.


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Jamie J Barter
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29/10/2018 6:14 pm  

@Shiva :

Loose quote: “Two members of the IX* (one of whom might use the D-initial) have the duty of constantly opposing the intent of the Grand Master. They may use tomfoolery, opposite viewpoints, or other trickery to try to unseat the King. They alone are not eligible, of all the IX* candidates, for succession to the Throne.”
Meaning, in this context?

@dom :

J:--- Last month you asked how could anybody possibly consider A.C. to be a black magician because he was the Prophet of the Aeon.
D:--- Yes I did didn’t I?

As The Liverpudlians would say: Yes you did do dat dough, didn’t you dough dom?

[E]ducation/someone pointing out a mistaken line of thinking works fast sometimes doesn’t it?
It would appear to in your case!
(You didn’t state what your current position is this week, but then that would probably be out of date by now... wouldn’t it?)

I am asking you to consider that Crowley was not “evil” per se by society’s standards (hence my court of law scenario which you, strangely enough, keep trying to poke fun at…) because he once attended to thinking mean thoughts about someone whilst he did a ritual of some sort
Re-read it again. It was not a question of whether it was just A.C. “thinking mean thoughts whilst he did a ritual” as the fact that A.C. himself believed it otherwise (i.e. that being a IX ritual it should absolutely work according to his beliefs and firm intentions)

I’ll ask you a question, is someone a “black magician” permanently or can it be temporary? Think of a juvenile-delinquent who straightens himself out in adulthood. Are they a criminal in adulthood even though their crimes were committed decades earlier?
Let me turn this around back to you (for a change, as I don’t normally do this): Think of a nazi war criminal from the holocaust – maybe s/he should be exonerated from being tried for their alleged atrocities as it would now be decades after the fact?

By the way in actuality my initial response was not fully comprehended by you. I just reviewed it and here it is again; How can the prophet of the aeon be a ‘black magician’? Your OP is a null and void question if you look at it like that and this probably explains the lack of interest.
Well, at six pages and ongoing it’s hardly what I’d call a “lack”. And so do you think A.C.'s was a black act, or not?

That is, it wasn’t actually my opinion as such if you read what I said and properly. Anyway, the point was that maybe it was Crowley’s True Will to terminate someone else…….. sometimes. [...]
Most extremely unlikely, as Michael has eloquently gone into. Your “sometimes” is redundant (as we are discussing this particular instance)... as even if so, then he didn’t carry his True Will out there, did he?

If you want to bring karma into it then I guess you would have to explain how a Word of an Aeon would pay karmic debts off? Maybe AC has now incarnated and is suffering accordingly for that curse documented in the OP.....
I didn’t bring karma into this and don’t really know what you’re getting at or indeed how relevant the karmic debt of a Word of the Aeon is. I don’t believe in the transmission of karma over lifetimes. And sometimes I’m not even all that sure about this one...

In relation to the OP Jamie Barter is querying whether this particular situation involving AC terminating someone else is in line with AC’s true will or not.
I didn’t actually say this. What I was saying, was that it was not in line with anything he ever wrote or published about Thelema (which I grant you would in its widest scope include about the True Will at least indirectly by implication) and that his “shabby actions” rather hypocritically went against his “fine words”. I didn’t address the issue of whether A.C. might have been carrying out this True Will, that was you.

As of now, the evidence has been weighed up and yeah it looks dodgy and petty and “animal” ie it looked like AC was not in line with his HGA and was deviating into some sort of pit hence yeah it looked like “black magic”. Jamie has not yet answered my question though whether this one incident makes AC a “black magician” or was he generally not a black magician who slipped up here and there.
Yes, as Michael went on to say, I wasn’t so much suggesting he was a ‘black magician’ per se, but “that he got up to a few dodgy [and contradictory] things in his time such as [this] incident”. Under the terms of A.C.'s own definition(s), this would be Black Magic and ergo, he would have been a black magician for doing it.

But you agree that in this case (the OP) the evidence strongly suggests that AC’s Nefesh, Ruach and Guf were in the driving seat during those particular ritualistic actions and it was therefore not his True Will?
Why the supernal “Nefesh” here?

So you agree that Crowley was an Adept and not as the person who made the original post seems to be arguing for that he was a “black magician
This then begs the question: is it possible to be both (rather than the terms are mutually exclusive)? As an Adept is by definition below the Abyss (as is a black magician, or black brother) this would appear to be so.
Maybe the supernal “Masters” was meant, instead of the term “Adepts”?

Please excuse delays in replying, I am aiming to get another computer shortly. In the meantime Praise be to the hallowed institution of the public library!
N Joy


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