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'All these old letters of my book'....which book exactly?  

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dom
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03/05/2020 4:47 pm  

The 'old letters' referenced in 1:57 must be the 22 Hebrew letters of course but which book is being referenced? It can't be AL because there is only one reference to one of the Hebrew letters in 1:57  Which book then? Here's what AC said about this line;

 

All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise.  AL  1:57

On this issue Crowley said in the Old Comment;

The last paragraph confirms the Tarot attributions as given in 777, with one secret exception

...and in the New Comment;
 
Tzaddi is the letter of The Emperor, the Trump IV, and Hé is the Star, the Trump XVII. Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged, revolving on the pivot of Pisces, just as, in the Trumps VIII and XI, Leo and Libra do about Virgo. This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical.
The fact of its so doing is a most convincing proof of the superhuman Wisdom of the author of this Book to those who have laboured for years, in vain, to elucidate the problems of the Tarot.
 
I raised the issue of origins of the Quabalah here;
 
Eliphas Lévi popularized the notion that Tarot symbols were somehow connected with the Hebrew alphabet whilst others have said a possible ancient Egyptian connection but how, who and where I wouldn't know.  I doubt that there was any reference to 22 paths and the ATU in Egyptian history.  The general consensus is that the ATU were some sort of medieval Italian invention but if these 22 letters are of Nuit's book then does that indicate that there is another explanation?

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The HGA of a Duck
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03/05/2020 5:25 pm  

I tend to interpret this "Book" as just a poetic description of the Tarot deck. Nuit says her "word is six and fifty", which connects it to the 56 Minor Arcana. I wouldn't be surprised if it has some other meanings as well though I'm not aware of them.


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dom
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03/05/2020 5:32 pm  
Posted by: @duck

I tend to interpret this "Book" as just a poetic description of the Tarot deck. Nuit says her "word is six and fifty", which connects it to the 56 Minor Arcana. I wouldn't be surprised if it has some other meanings as well though I'm not aware of them.

So if the Tarot deck is Nuit's book then are we back to Nuit as an ancient Egyptian Goddess and the Tarot (and the Semitic languages) originated in Egypt?

 

In the thread quoted in the OP I said;

Yes the four worlds 'of 'the Quabalah' then would appear to be a derivative of Platonic/Pytahgorean metaphysics involving numbers.  Maybe, more accurately, that would be 'the worlds (inner emanations) of the Gnostics who appeared circa 1 A.D. 

Gematria was apparently a Greek (alphabet) Hellenistic practice which must've been adopted by Hebrews  circa 2 B.C.   However I hear that the Hebrews even before this time didn't actually use numbers but instead used their 22 letters which suggests they Hebrews may've used Gematria earlier, I don't know.   Anyway the distinct Semitic alphabet was formed circa 800 B.C.   Maybe it's a coincidence that the 22 Tarot ATU conveniently fit into each path of the TOL.  Maybe it's irrelevant or even wrong to state that the Tarot was said to have been a pre-Hellenistic ancient Egyptian invention.  If it is relevant it may suggest that both Pythagoras and the Hebrews derived their metaphysics ideas from a common source i.e. Egypt.   

 

If all this is the case then Crowley's recommendation to read The Bible, "by various authors unknown. The Hebrew and Greek Originals are of Qabalistic value." is based on a shaky premise as a lot of The Old Testament is also pre -Hellenistic and would have no relevance to Gematria.......then again if you seek you could find some;

https://biblehub.com/timeline/old.htm

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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03/05/2020 6:42 pm  

I find it unlikely that the Tarot goes back to ancient Egypt though from what I can tell, most alphabets in use today can be traced back to Egyptian hieroglyphs, so there's a connection but not a direct one.

On the coincidence of the 22 ATU/Tree of life I think its more likely that there was "melting pot" going on in medieval times, with one influencing the other. For example there have been different decks with different amounts of cards but those have now disappeared. I think Kabbalah is probably much older but a lot of its important concepts were formulated around this time. 

I just had a quick look at the history of the tree and it seems it once had only 17 paths.


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Shiva
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03/05/2020 7:26 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I doubt that there was any reference to 22 paths and the ATU in Egyptian history

Your doubt has penetrated the veil that covers the mystery of the AEgyptian Tarot Myth. And once inside, we find ... Nothing.

The Tree of Life, as we pretty much know it today, was "invented" or "created" by a Jesuit priest, in Italy, in the 16th or 17th century. The Tarot seems to have arisen in that same time frame, and in the same country. This priest made up the spheres and the paths because he wanted some sort of framework to help him understand Hebrew concepts that he was studying.

We had this same conversation a year or two ago. Someone, was it kidneyhawk?, posted some data indicating a slightly earlier date, was it in Germany?, and said he was digging deep into (Tarot?) origins, and that a book or a paper, would be forthcoming.

My "?s," above, indicate that my memory is faulty and my LAShTAL license should be revoked. But, like being under governments everywhere, I get to keep driving with impaired vision, hearing, and memory. But THE POINT, as so far really revealed, indicates that the Tree and the Cards came into use somewhere in Europe, around the middle of the just past millennium (which is a thousand years, not a million).

Certainly, one can dig deeper into the past, and on other continents, to find historical precedents that are similar, but not the same.  (Chess, for example, came out of India(?).

I am being fuzzy with these references, because I can't remember what I'm trying to remember, but your doubt is well-taken: The Tree and the Tarot didn't come from some AEgyptian papyrus, although I'm thinking about making some counterfeit papyri with Trees, because there's gotta be some profit in this popular AEgypt-Tree belief.

Posted by: @dom

a possible ancient Egyptian connection but how, who and where I wouldn't know. 

Oh, the thin line of connection is there. Historically, in the history books, we first find the Hebrews making bricks as slave labor in Ancient AEgypt. Moses gets to learn all the esoteric secrets before he revolts and takes his tribe away to the promised land. The Tribe uses Hebrew letters, how strange. Why don't they use hieroglyphs? Because the had an unwritten history somewhere else, before the AEgyptians bought or caught them?

It's only one step more for some European scholar to draw, design, or modify some Tree (the concept of the Tree go way back, under different or similar patterns) and assign letters.

A few hundred years later, somebody comes along and says, "This is pretty good stuff in my book [why is it her book?], but switch these two things around to make it better."

Posted by: @dom

The general consensus is that the ATU were some sort of medieval Italian invention

Oh, I could have saved a lot of typing. You already knew and remembered. Maybe my essay with many ?s will help someone else flush a foolish notion.

The esoteric traditions of Khem are mostly found in the funeral papyri or tomb art. They are heavily involved with the Tuat, and the Tuat is presented in chambers, one room after another, and some chambers have multiple registers (levels). This is where one should look for AEgyptian maps and models. The so-called Book of the Dead is found in many differing versions, with a common thread. Alternatively, there is the subconscious cosmology of The Book of Gates (not Bill), which is amazingly complex ...

image

I count three paths leading to a gate (pylon, pile-on), beyond which is Osiris sitting on his throne, judging the victims of the plague.

Posted by: @dom

does that indicate that there is another explanation?

I don't necessarily see such an indication, but there is always another explanation. Somebody always has a different explanation for everything you or I can think of. I believe it's called Life in a Dual World (called duplexity by some). Us versus them.

 

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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03/05/2020 8:33 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

The Book of Gates (not Bill), which is amazingly complex ...

image

 

Looks like the blueprint for a cpu:


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dom
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03/05/2020 9:42 pm  
Posted by: @duck
Posted by: @shiva

The Book of Gates (not Bill), which is amazingly complex ...

image

 

Looks like the blueprint for a cpu:

Well strictly speaking that's exactly what it is in terms of your biological nuclei and the processes therein.   That's one way of looking at it. 


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mal
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03/05/2020 9:51 pm  
Posted by: @duck

56 Minor Arcana

attributable to the sephiroth. The objective. Nuit.

Major Arcana to the paths. The subjective. Hadit.

Together producing Heru-Ra-Ha. Dual God.

Posted by: @dom

Which book then?

The Book of Nuit. Subtitled maybe, The Night and The Star: Key Spacewalk Experiences for Safely Journeying Between the Worlds. 1904 Aiwass English edition.

Posted by: @dom

All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise.  AL  1:57

Some out of the box thoughts with regard to star references from the same chapter:

Tzaddi isn't every man and every woman.

Tzaddi is the Hierophantic task...star & star.

Develop English Cabala models with Tzaddi as Hierophant and Lovers( I:xv '...the Beast...the Scarlet Woman...they shall bring the glory of the stars...'  I:xvii ...ye are not so chosen ).

Replacing corresponding manifold forms as they appear according to formula and Aiwass.

We hold the Earth fro Hell away. 🌹


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Jamie J Barter
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03/05/2020 11:59 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

We had this same conversation a year or two ago. Someone, was it kidneyhawk?, posted some data indicating a slightly earlier date, was it in Germany?, and said he was digging deep into (Tarot?) origins, and that a book or a paper, would be forthcoming.

My money would be on belmurru, who has shown himself to be extremely knowledgeable about the Tarot (amongst other things).  However I cannot link.

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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04/05/2020 1:57 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I cannot link.

The saying is, "I cannot lie," which means either you cannot spell or you are purposely smearing the good name of George Washington, who (c) that phrase. I suppose it's some sort of Yank/Brit thing. I can't tell the difference myself.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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04/05/2020 2:30 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I cannot link.

The saying is, "I cannot lie,"

You lie?

Posted by: @shiva

which means either you cannot spell

As "spellig is defunct"

Posted by: @shiva

or you are purposely smearing the good name of George Washington, who (c) that phrase.

I always thought it was "I cannot tell a lie", and said in a very pious, breaking, squeaky-high sort of tone of voice.  Some flap over his chopping down a cherry tree, wasn't it?  A most upsetting business, for the tree I mean..

Posted by: @shiva

I suppose it's some sort of Yank/Brit thing. I can't tell the difference myself.

I try not to think about it, myself!

[For further information: (A) I am not sure where the relevant post/OT from @belmurru might be, and (B) I am not sure I know how I would upload a link for/to it either, not being a particularly "tech" sort of person.  But (C) I also do have recollections of him writing that a book or paper would be forthcoming, on that subject at least (I think there were others).]

Gap-fillingingly yours,

N Joy

 

 


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Shiva
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04/05/2020 2:51 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

(C) I also do have recollections

How can you copyright data that does not exist?


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Jamie J Barter
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04/05/2020 3:04 am  
Posted by: @shiva

How can you copyright data that does not exist?

With not inconsiderable difficulty.

N Joy


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Tiger
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04/05/2020 10:06 pm  

Nobody really knows what happened back then. Links are conjured but all we know is that at certain times the secret traditions passed from mouth to ear, get broken and part of the mysteries get written down; and perhaps subtle influences beat the heart that moves the pen.

Pico Della Mirandola attributed the Qabalah going back to moses. However the Mosaic Qabalah is different than the Hermetic Qabalah. The Egyptian genesis differs from the Mosaic genesis. Adam was never created equal to god. The Serpent had to rouse Eve to eat of the Tree of knowledge to become like god. In the Egyptian genesis man is divine and belongs to a race of star demons, the seven governors of the lower world, a brother to the creative word, who can walk through the door of the forbidden; The Demiurge that moves the stars. Magnum miraculum est homo

Yes the spheres are older than Mosaic law. The belief in magic in Egypt is older than the belief in god
where the practice of reflecting the universe in the mind existed.

Before nine angelic hierarchies of the Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and his negative theology -
seraphim, cherubim, thrones; dominions,virtues, powers; principalities, archangels,angels;
god is nothing yet god is all; no name yet all names.

Before the wisdom of Chaldea and the mysteries of the barbarians, and the experiential approach to the living qualitative reality of number.

Before incantatory magic of Orpheus and The Ogdoadic hymns of regeneration.

“Do you not know, Asclepius, that Egypt is an image of heaven, or, to speak more exactly, in Egypt all the operations of the powers which rule and work in heaven have been transferred to earth below? “
Dialogue Between Hermes Trismegistus and Asclepius

Azazel taught a divine personal salvation gnosis without the aid of god, through working with the secret virtues of plants, stones, drawing down the powers of the stars and the cosmos into amulets and of the lights and spheres that moved in the heavens whose bodies exerted their pull upon the blood and the tides. The fruit of the ageless wisdom that built the pyramids in time. Who learned it from the Rearing Serpent who some say was Lilith.

Do you know magic ? can you call the Ren, The sekhem ur, The khu, speak your destiny, create  ?

What they teach you in Sunday school ?


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Shiva
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05/05/2020 6:03 am  
Posted by: @tiger

Do you know magic ? can you call the Ren,

Sometimes I have to call the Rain, when it gets really droughty.


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Jamie J Barter
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05/05/2020 9:21 am  
Posted by: @tiger

“Do you not know, Asclepius, that Egypt is an image of heaven, or, to speak more exactly, in Egypt all the operations of the powers which rule and work in heaven have been transferred to earth below? “

This isn't really to speak more exactly - the first comparison used six words, while the one after used twenty.

Posted by: @tiger

Before the wisdom of Chaldea and the mysteries of the barbarians, and the experiential approach to the living qualitative reality of number.

What exactly is this "living qualitative reality" of number?  And when it came into being, in what ways did this experiential approach differ with what came after?

Incidentally, congratulations on the apparent fixing of your errant "carriage return"!

N Joy


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Tiger
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05/05/2020 12:39 pm  

@jamiejbarter
What exactly is this "living qualitative reality" of number?

It is the sigil of the entities carrying meaning, wisdom, information and power as well as the tones that find their way to the heart and affect the mind; occupying space and time. A gateway to intelligible beauty, charmed by Sophia; in which an interaction can lead a process of revealing .

And when it came into being, in what ways did this experiential approach differ with what came after ?

What came after this experiential approach came into being is that an apparition of the the threshold manifested as the specter which abandoned the metathesis. The ego assumed total control; applied mathematics created better means of destruction and torpid automation; but not the nature of the mad scientist who abused his wife. The Law Giver subsidized the too big to fail free market at the expense of the poor and its liberty; protecting their Office restricting it to the saved at the mercy of the dammed.


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Jamie J Barter
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05/05/2020 1:36 pm  

You don't say!

N Joy


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Shiva
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05/05/2020 7:42 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

You don't say!

Yes, that's what he said.

 


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christibrany
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05/05/2020 8:53 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

the entities carrying meaning, wisdom, information and power as well as the tones that find their way to the heart and affect the mind; occupying space and time. A gateway to intelligible beauty, charmed by Sophia; in which an interaction can lead a process of revealing .

@Tiger

Sometimes you write as if you are channeling .  It is usually nice.

Wrong thread but have you ever read Michael Bertiaux? He is quite interesting.

I am reading his Ontological Graffitti.   Very dense in a good way. Deep.

Dark.

Forest lakes.

 

Carriage

 

Return

 

 

OM

 


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Tiger
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06/05/2020 1:37 am  

@christibrany

Just ordered. Books on it’s way.
Thanks Bro.


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