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BESZ/APOPHRASZ


vamz
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In the footnotes of Liber Samekh, these words are described to be the two devils (matter & motion) that destroy the Godhead for the purpose of the incarnation of any God.

I gather that APOPHRASZ = APEP in Liber 65.

He hails Him as APOPHRASZ, the Motion that destroys and devours Godhead, for the purpose of the Incarnation of any God. The combined action of these two DEVILS is to allow the God upon whom they prey to enter into enjoyment of existence through the Sacrament of dividual “Life” (Bread - the flesh of BESZ) and “Love” (Wine - the blood or venom of AOPHRASZ).

I'm not so clear on who BESZ is. I've read some vauge connection that he is a blue midget god, therefore Harpocrates, but that does not really fit in this context. Can someone please explain this?

Also, how do these connect to the Sacrament of Life & Love, per the above quote?

Lastly, why does Crowley describe this as the destruction of the Godhead? In liber 65, Apep was one of the aspects of the HGA that destroyed the Ego FOR the purpose of incarnating the Godhead. This seems backwards to me.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @vamz

a blue midget god, therefore Harpocrates

He's an ugly dwarf. 

[wikipedia]: Bes (/ˈbɛs/; also spelled as Bisu), together with his feminine counterpart Beset, is an ancient Egyptian deity worshipped as a protector of households and, in particular, of mothers, children and childbirth. Bes later came to be regarded as the defender of everything good and the enemy of all that is bad. Bes may have been a Middle Kingdom import from Nubia or Somalia, and his cult did not become widespread until the beginning of the New Kingdom. Worship of Bes spread as far north as the area of Syria and as far west as the Balearic Islands (Ibiza) in Spain, and later into the Roman and Achaemenid Empires.

He is not Harpocrates.

Posted by: @vamz

This seems backwards to me.

You have cited several backwards paradoxes. Your task, according to One Star in Sight, is to put each item up against its opposite, and then to prefer neither.

Apep does not kill the ego. The ego gets neutralized by being perfectly balanced. I love the Ancient AEgyptian stuff, but don't let fairy tales (that are just metaphors) influence your insight into what's taking place.

The ego gets perfectly balanced by putting opposites together and seeing they ARE opposites, then they can both be dismissed. The dismissal is the important action. The opposites don't matter because they are illusionary.

Crowley is full of opposites in his writings. He, even he, actually changed his mind, or his rhetoric, on many subjects over the years.

 


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Tiger
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As long as there is a Self and God
a seperative consciousness is operating.
If there is no Self and no God
Well then.

And if you want to get it on
then hail;

God eating
the enjoyment of grounding
and
the venom of transcendence.

thats just my take for the moment


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Tiger
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Also more so with a sense of an action of individual responsibility;
and less so of an abrogation of it.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

Also more so with a sense of an action of individual responsibility; and less so of an abrogation of it.

But "he" started it!

 


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kidneyhawk
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An article of relevance to this discussion:

https://www.parareligion.ch/sunrise/staley16.htm

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @vamz

a blue midget god, therefore Harpocrates

He's an ugly dwarf. 

 

There goes the political correctness. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

There goes the political correctness. 

He is not Harpocrates. What is your point?


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ignant666
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I think he is taking joking issue with you being so simply descriptive, when you should have euphemistically said "He's challenged as to verticality, and handsomeness", maybe?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

maybe?

Maybe. But who can tell on this sunny Sunday when he is exhibiting second circuit ego-fulfillment on multiple threads ... simultaneously!

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

But who can tell on this sunny Sunday

Though it were right foggy round this way earlier.

Meteorologically yours,

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Though it were right foggy round this way earlier.

I believe you live in England, and I hear it's a lot of foggy or misty, or rainy, orovercast a lot.

We live in New Mexico (nueva Mejica) which is sunny all the time, except for nightly blackouts, and we do get clouds and rain, but much in in minority of days.. We get rain too, but not much.. Sometimes.

The Aztec ruling class (the mejica) were plundered the *Spaniards. Then they turned the eyes to the north (up here) and said, "Let's go plunder the NEW Mejica. That's where the term "New Mexico" came from. When they got here, they found simple Pueblo Indians ... who didn't collect gold & silver. Rats! They stayed anywhere. There descendants still rule the State Capital, the Gov's office, and a lot of local businesses. My doctor is one of them.

 


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vamz
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@shiva

I saw that wiki on Besz, I still don't understand how we go from that to this. Why did Crowley attribute all those things to him? Seems like he's got the wrong God in mind or something.

Any idea on this connection to the Sacrament?


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @vamz

Also, how do these connect to the Sacrament of Life & Love, per the above quote?

Lastly, why does Crowley describe this as the destruction of the Godhead?

Leaving aside the weather, these are also penetratingly rather good questions to which I would be interested to read any forthcoming penetratingly rather good answers here.  (Shiva??)

Posted by: @vamz

I gather that APOPHRASZ = APEP in Liber 65.

Can I ask upon what basis are you gathering this (not a cabbalistic one, presumably)?  Does this mean APEP then is really "The Truth in Motion"*? (=Hadit?)

Momentarily non-gatheringly yours,

N Joy

* from Footnote to "Section A" to Liber Samekh.


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vamz
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can I ask upon what basis are you gathering this (not a cabbalistic one, presumably)?  Does this mean APEP then is really "The Truth in Motion"*? (=Hadit?)

I find Crowley pretty confusing on this. Yes, in section A he does call APOPHRASZ=Truth In Motion=Hadit.

 

But then in Section A.a,

He hails his Angel not only as “un-nefer” the Perfection of “Asar” himself as a man, but as Ptah-Apophrasz-Ra, the identity (Hadit) wrapped in the Dragon (Nuit) and thereby manifested as a Sun (Ra-Hoor-Khuit). The “Egg” (or Heart) “girt with a Serpent” is a cognate symbol; the idea is thus expressed later in the ritual.

egg/heart & serpent = HGA

Serpent(Dragon)  = Nuit (Apophrasz) = Truth in Matter

Egg/heart = Hadit (Ptah)

 

Here he seems to flip this association, making it really difficult to say what it is.

 

So here was my tie breaker -  back in section A. he also said

...Sacrament of dividual “Life” (Bread - the flesh of BESZ) and “Love” (Wine - the blood or venom of AOPHRASZ).

Which really resonates with the following lines from Liber 65:IV

24.

Arise, O serpent Apep, Thou art Adonai the beloved one! Thou art my darling and my lord, and Thy poison is sweeter than the kisses of Isis the mother of the Gods!

25.

For Thou art He! Yea, Thou shalt swallow up Asi and Asar, and the children of Ptah. Thou shalt pour forth a flood of poison to destroy the works of the Magician. Only the Destroyer shall devour Thee; Thou shalt blacken his throat, wherein his spirit abideth. Ah, serpent Apep, but I love Thee!

26.

My God! Let Thy secret fang pierce to the marrow of the little secret bone that I have kept against the Day of Vengeance of Hoor-Ra. Let Kheph-Ra sound his sharded drone! let the jackals of Day and Night howl in the wilderness of Time! let the Towers of the Universe totter, and the guardians hasten away! For my Lord hath revealed Himself as a mighty serpent, and my heart is the blood of His body.

The last line especially sounds like the Sacrament Crowley tried to link with Apophrasz earlier.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @vamz

Why did Crowley attribute all those things to him? Seems like he's got the wrong God in mind or something.

Well, when we get into AC and the "reasons" for a few things (that are not explicitly explained in a commentary or at least a footnote) are up to your studies or imagination. It doesn't hurt to ask around, but this one is either above or below my pay grade.

Posted by: @vamz

Any idea on this connection to the Sacrament?

None whatsoever. A "sacrament" is based upon  Sacr/Sange, which is "blood." There are different versions going around. Which sacrament are you referring to?

Oh, this one ...     (I had to go look upstairs) ...

Posted by: @vamz

The combined action of these two DEVILS is to allow the God upon whom they prey to enter into enjoyment of existence through the Sacrament of dividual “Life” (Bread - the flesh of BESZ) and “Love” (Wine - the blood or venom of AOPHRASZ).

These dual devils, bread & wine, are consumed by the god who has incarnated. We're all extensions of some godhead, which is a fabricated unity at Kether. Our own Kether needs a vehicle - us. The devils are just deviants - forces of duality. I see this quote comes from Liber 65, a Class A doc and, frankly, some of this Class A stuff can get gibberish, especially when one comes across an entry like you quoted. AC's Class A stuff is often randomly filled with hints and clever puzzles. It's enough to remind us of RTC's marketing strategy, except AC came first.

 


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Tiger
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Hows about

“ Motion that destroys and devours Godhead, for the purpose of the Incarnation of any God. “

motion of desire - for the purpose of Becoming - Cycles

 “ The combined action of these two DEVILS is to allow the God upon whom they prey to enter into enjoyment of existence through the Sacrament of dividual “Life” (Bread - the flesh of BESZ) “

Grounding the separation as an individual

 “ and “Love” (Wine - the blood or venom of AOPHRASZ). “

with a passion to unite - with - Being - the Godhead

 “I’m not so clear on who BESZ is. I've read some vauge connection that he is a blue midget god, therefore Harpocrates, but that does not really fit in this context. Can someone please explain this?“

shh

“ Also, how do these connect to the Sacrament of Life & Love, per the above quote? “

( ones ) Life is the reality of God, as well as the channel

“ Lastly, why does Crowley describe this as the destruction of the Godhead? “

There is no God to unite with, you have become God, the God you preyed on has been devoured and destroyed, it has entered into you and become part of you.

Birth/Death
Being/Non-being/becoming
Coming/Going
Sameness:Otherness

We are all cells in the body of god in the company of heaven .


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @vamz

I find Crowley pretty confusing on this.

Posted by: @shiva

 AC's Class A stuff is often randomly filled with hints and clever puzzles.

Yes these be deep, and (unfortunately) apparently somewhat muddy, waters.

Posted by: @vamz

Which really resonates with the following lines from Liber 65:IV

Posted by: @shiva

I see this quote comes from Liber 65, a Class A doc and, frankly, some of this Class A stuff can get gibberish, especially when one comes across an entry like you quoted.

And also this Chapter (4) from Liber 65 is by far the most impenetrable one out of the five, and the one with the most obscure imagery... 

Posted by: @vamz

Yes, in section A he does call APOPHRASZ=Truth In Motion=Hadit.

Crowley doesn't specifically equate (Truth in) Motion to Hadit here (which is why I put a question mark after it), but it's explicitly implied, I feel, in the first sentence to his New Comment to the first verse of the first Chapter of Liber Legis:

Nuit is Matter, Hadit is Motion, in their full physical sense.  They are the Tao and Teh of Chinese Philosophy; or, to put it very simply, the Noun and Verb in grammar.

This is also reflected in his comment to Chapter 2 verse 2:

Hadit seems to be the principle of Motion which is everywhere, yet not extended in any dimension except as it chances to combine with the 'Matter' which is Nuit.  There can evidently be no manifestation without this conjunction.

and to verse 7, ibid:

We may say here briefly that Hadit is Motion, that is, Change or 'Love'. ... Hadit brings motion and position. ... It is evidently "a foolish word" for Hadit to say "Come unto me", as did Nuit naturally enough, meaning "Fulfil thy possibilities"; for who can 'come unto' Motion itself, who draw near unto that which is in very truth his innermost identity?

The quote given from Samekh's Section Aa (see above) omitted the following first sentence:

He now asserts that he is himself the "[Holy Guardian] Angel", or messenger of his Angel; that is, that he is a mind and body whose office is to receive and transmit the Word of his Angel.

What follows then appears to be the magician uttering that the Trinity Nuit-Hadit-RHK is invoked/involved, as being even further "up" (or "in"!) than the Angel. However,

Posted by: @vamz

egg/heart & serpent = HGA

Serpent(Dragon)  = Nuit (Apophrasz) = Truth in Matter

Egg/heart = Hadit (Ptah)

Here he seems to flip this association, making it really difficult to say what it is.

There seems to be association-flip going on all over the flipping show here!

The end question is, of course, what does it all mean/ go to show?  A bag of peanuts to the person who comes up with the best answer!

Posted by: @tiger

[...] There is no God to unite with, you have become God, the God you preyed on has been devoured and destroyed, it has entered into you and become part of you.

A nice try & a valid assumption, tiger.  However I still feel there's more to be had (no pun intended).

Pondering-longly yours,

N Joy


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christibrany
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@jamiejbarter

 

My novice take on it:

 

egg/heart & serpent = HGA  Through devotion/the heart/bhakti

Serpent(Dragon)  = Nuit (Apophrasz) = Truth in Matter and through direct experience of life and matter

Egg/heart = Hadit (Ptah) mindfully, in the knowledge of the Centre and balance of things, can you come to Godhead.

Which then is annihilated in the 'sacrament' of ecstasy . as All falls away

And then there is no I no God no 'thing'

There is just. 

 

Feels like writing a new interpretation of some sutra for a class. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

And also this Chapter (4) from Liber 65 is by far the most impenetrable one out of the five, and the one with the most obscure imagery...

It might have been "channeled" on a dose of something, or a mixture, that was approaching an overdose level.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Hadit seems to be the principle of Motion which is everywhere, yet not extended in any dimension

This is precisely the definition of a String (as in "string theory"), which has no dimensions, yet it oscillates in ten dimensions"  (or 22, or some other advanced but unprovable theory, as well as the metaphysical Monad. All at Kether.

Posted by: @vamz

Here he seems to flip this association, making it really difficult to say what it is.

JJB: There seems to be association-flip going on all over the flipping show here!

It has just been asserted that RHK is "above" the Angel. Going up that dimensional highway involves REVERSAL. Any thing, and hopefully ALL things, are seen as their opposite.

 

 


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