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dom
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Following on from the discussions here;  https://www.lashtal.com/forums/people/the-man-behind-amado-crowley/paged/13/#post-113419 I felt it was time to make a new relevant thread.

 

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

 

Consider these sections of AL Chapter 1 and contrast/compare them to the teachings of Christ;

8. The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs.

9. Worship then the Khabs, and behold my light shed over you!

10. Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known.

11. These are fools that men adore; both their Gods & their men are fools.

and......

21. With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit.

 

and....

 

49. Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

So where does Christ get it wrong?  Where does he get it right?  What about Crowley's critiques of Christ?  Were they justified?  If so, why and how? 

This topic was modified 5 months ago 5 times by dom

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Plenty of questions here (10).  But do you not have any answers - or at least suggestions - yourself?  Or are you expecting everyone else to come up with them themselves for you?

Interrogatively yours,

Norma N Joy Conquest


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Plenty of questions here (10).  But do you not have any answers - or at least suggestions - yourself?  Or are you expecting everyone else to come up with them themselves for you?

Interrogatively yours,

Norma N Joy Conquest

Well i was discussing with pertinax (in the thread that this sprung out from) about perceived inadequacies in Christ's teachings compared to AC's library full of manuals.   Pertinex pointed out that Christ was making it accessible to large crowds of peasants (in a simple age) as oppose to a modern age of book-ordering processes... so give it leeway.  What is Christ's method?  Inflame thyself with prayer and petition to the Creator.  That's it really as far as I can tell.  A lot of Christ's teachings are him leading by example as a self-styled perfect being.... as it were.   

 

  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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The questions

Posted by: @dom

So where does Christ get it wrong?  Where does he get it right?

imply that Christ was a historical personage who we might evaluate based on all available evidence and documentation. Whereas this may or may not be true, thinkers such as Soren Kierkegaard took a very different approach to Christ. Kierkegaard, for example, felt that the closer one got to a “Historical Jesus,” the further they got from the Living Christ. This is an important point. We don't approach Crowley like this. We understand that, Prophet and Magi or not, he was a man, like any other. The Living Christ, on the other hand, is an immanent spiritual verity. This may be an analog to a State of Consciousness and Illumination which APPEARS as an Individuality at certain stages of our spiritual elevation and development.

 

There are Buddhist Schools which approach Buddha in the same fashion. The historical Shakyamuni is not the “Original Buddha,” even if he seems to be the first on the historical timeline. The Original Buddha is the inherent Buddha Nature which permeates all things, MANIFESTING THROUGH people, places and things.

 

Jesus becomes the FIRSTBORN of the Resurrected and Christians are called Co-Heirs to the Kingdom (Jesus having made his devoted circle equal to him by calling them his Brethren and then his Friends). “I am the Vine, Ye are the Branches.” St. Paul extends this further when he describes the Church as the Body of Christ, each individual serving a different function as the different parts of the Body do. THIS, I feel, is akin to DO WHAT THOU WILT. Dom's Will may be different from mine in our present individualized manifestation. Ultimately, there is a singular COSMIC WILL from which Dom and I both emerge and will fall back into.

 

If one can read the synoptic Gospels away from all the theologies which have co-opted them, we might experience a type of rich and compelling poem in the field of Wisdom Literature. Readers may be less likely to sneer and mock “Zombie Jesus” and find themselves encountering a very intriguing mystical figure.

 

There is that great meme which I have seen making the rounds on Facebook where Jesus in Gethsemane is praying: “Dad? Are you there? It's Me: You.”

 

But this inadvertently reveals something of the profundity of the Son of God operating as a Crossroadian Between the Planes. Jesus identifies with the “Father” in Scripture...”Before Abraham was, I AM.” He ALSO bestows this teaching, gnosis and revelation to his Disciples. They, too, are I AM. This is the Name by which YHWH reveals himself to Moses. It is a Name of Power and embodies what Neville Goddard calls “Unconditioned Consciousness.” From this, the Imagination fashions reality through a sequence of emanations. This is why God, in Isaiah, declares that he creates and destroys, he does GOOD and he does EVIL.

 

This is all expressed in verse 00 of Liber B vel Magi. Here we find described in the most succinct language God (I AM), Barbelo (Mother-Father Emanation), the extension of Duality into a Mandalic Framework from which proceed the Seven Rays (and these are repeatedly identified by Theosophists and such in the symbolism of Scripture, from the Seven Eyes of the Lamb to the Seven Heads of the Beast).

 

No, I don't think Yod-He-Shin-Vav-Heh is a defunct Osiris. As I mentioned on another thread, I think Jesus was beyond his time, epoch and aeon. Hence, he spoke of eating his flesh and blood and the masses turned away. “This is a hard saying-who can bear it.” But he wasn't speaking of his corporeal body. Similarly, he spoke of tearing down the Temple and raising it up in three days. Again, those who heard him speak thought he was speaking literally.

 

Crowley wrote that Thelema was to be a restoration of Taoism. Taoism emerged within the Aeon if Isis. If the Aeon of Osiris was abrogate, how much more that of the Mother! But Crowley, outside of his own religious dogma, perceives things from a higher level. It's my thought that the Aeon of Ma'at witnesses the restoration of Christianity. It's also my thought that Aeons are Components of Cosmic Consciousness which come together as we rise through our Initiations.

 

As to the Historical and Immanent Living Christ, I take a both/and approach.

 

Blake was once asked as to Divinity of Jesus. He paused and then answered:

 

“He is the Only God. But then...so are You. And so am I.”

 

Amen.


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

Christ was making it accessible to large crowds of peasants (in a simple age) as oppose to a modern age of book-ordering processes...

As I indicate above, Jesus speaks a "secret language" and is terribly misunderstood. The Gospels bear testimony to this. A classic example is John 3:16. Nicodemus is NOT a stupid "peasant" but he can't grok how one can be "born again." Jesus explains in secret. This is not about the literal or physical. One is born anew on another level of Being and Consciousness. 

The semi-lost Gospel of Mary Magdalene also bears testimony to the modus operandi of the didactic Christos. There are teachings for the masses and teachings reserved for the inner sanctum. Mary is the most inner and intimate with the teachings of the Master. This infuriates sexist Peter but is borne out in what remains of her Gospel. 

When we collect the Gnostic gospels, we begin to get a larger picture of this Mystic Vision. But even without them, the synoptic four are wonderfully poetic gnostic works.

Ignant noticed that Aiwass seemed restricted in his understanding of both Christianity and Egyptology by the demarcations in Crowley's personal body of knowledge. An example of one who wasn't so restricted was William Blake whose writings ("Prophetic Works") presaged the Nag Hammadi revelations. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

The dying god is well-in-charge of external affairs. Individual protesters (some of them) are representatives of the Horus stife-syndrome. There is no way we, as a global civilization, have entered the Aeon of Horus. (Individuals may well have, though).


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Jamie J Barter
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@dom The point I was making was that there was surely plenty enough to discuss already on/ from that other thread without needing to introduce a further half score more questions of your own devising?  This is meant to be a forum not a classroom, after all. 

Speaking of which, though, and in tune with the exam-questions type setting, you might just as well have imported wrwb's suggestion from the other (other) thread as follows:

Posted by: @dom [with modifications]

Consider these sections of AL Chapter 1 [2] and contrast/compare them to the teachings of Christ [the New Testament]:

57.  "He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still."

Revelations 22:11.  “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

there was surely plenty enough to discuss already on/ from that other thread without needing to introduce a further half score more questions of your own devising

As Van the Man sang:

Too late to stop now!

Jamie, you know we're going to have great fun! 🙂 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

The dying god is well-in-charge of external affairs. Individual protesters (some of them) are representatives of the Horus stife-syndrome. There is no way we, as a global civilization, have entered the Aeon of Horus. (Individuals may well have, though).

In Christianity (as I grok it), the Dying God is also the Resurrecting God (a singular Hyper-Formulae)-and the Resurrecting God is reborn as the Child (Horus). Jesus said "Unless ye become as a Little Child, ye shall not see the Kingdom..."


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dom
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@kidneyhawk

 

. Kierkegaard, for example, felt that the closer one got to a “Historical Jesus,” the further they got from the Living Christ. This is an important point. We don't approach Crowley like this.

We sort of do if we accept that this is the unparalleled Aeon where the Word of the Aeon is documented by the technologies of this Aeon  (photos, biography accounts so on).

We understand that, Prophet and Magi or not, he was a man, like any other. The Living Christ, on the other hand, is an immanent spiritual verity. This may be an analog to a State of Consciousness and Illumination which APPEARS as an Individuality at certain stages of our spiritual elevation and development.

There are Buddhist Schools which approach Buddha in the same fashion. The historical Shakyamuni is not the “Original Buddha,” even if he seems to be the first on the historical timeline. The Original Buddha is the inherent Buddha Nature which permeates all things, MANIFESTING THROUGH people, places and things.

 

This makes sense.

 

Jesus becomes the FIRSTBORN of the Resurrected and Christians are called Co-Heirs to the Kingdom (Jesus having made his devoted circle equal to him by calling them his Brethren and then his Friends). “I am the Vine, Ye are the Branches.” St. Paul extends this further when he describes the Church as the Body of Christ, each individual serving a different function as the different parts of the Body do. THIS, I feel, is akin to DO WHAT THOU WILT. Dom's Will may be different from mine in our present individualized manifestation. Ultimately, there is a singular COSMIC WILL from which Dom and I both emerge and will fall back into.

 

Yes "'Do what thou wilt...' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level ~  Crowley.

In fact the way to one's HGA (the path of Samekh) is based on "inflame thyself with prayer" according to AC.  Apart from the polytheism therein the (Samekh) Bornless One prayer could've easily been one of Christ's advised prayers. 

If one can read the synoptic Gospels away from all the theologies which have co-opted them, we might experience a type of rich and compelling poem in the field of Wisdom Literature. Readers may be less likely to sneer and mock “Zombie Jesus” and find themselves encountering a very intriguing mystical figure.

 

....yes or Essene-Occultist who went back up the Tree of Life back to the source via magickal practice and yoga etc.   Have you read Flowers book on Christ as a LHP Magician?  I haven't.  

 

. This is why God, in Isaiah, declares that he creates and destroys, he does GOOD and he does EVIL.

Yes The Tree has two pillars of Severity and Mercy.

, he spoke of tearing down the Temple and raising it up in three days. Again, those who heard him speak thought he was speaking literally.

What were these 'three days'?

Crowley wrote that Thelema was to be a restoration of Taoism. Taoism emerged within the Aeon if Isis. If the Aeon of Osiris was abrogate, how much more that of the Mother! But Crowley, outside of his own religious dogma, perceives things from a higher level. It's my thought that the Aeon of Ma'at witnesses the restoration of Christianity. It's also my thought that Aeons are Components of Cosmic Consciousness which come together as we rise through our Initiations.

 

I tend to agree. and am familiar with the Horus-Maat Lodge ideas.  The issue is linear time and Terence McKenna is good on this subject.   

.

As I indicate above, Jesus speaks a "secret language" and is terribly misunderstood. The Gospels bear testimony to this

Yes another instance is;  

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.  Mathew 6:22.  This is clearly some sort of occult visualization-dharana reference which would've went over most of his congregation's heads. 

 

Curiously enough I read somewhere (in a Colin Wilson book) that Gurdjieff genuinely thought that Christ was the Son of God.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Pertinax
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To carry on initially from the topics covered in the previous thread, I should be clear that I don't equate 'peasant' with stupidity, only a type of education focused largely on practical affairs, for example a lot of the disciples were fishermen, publicans, tax collectors and the rest. They were ordinary people, he simply spoke their language. The educated classes, i.e. the Rabbis, hated him and had him killed, executed for blasphemy ironically enough.

I'll start by saying that I feel that AC's hatred is due largely to his being on the receiving end of a pernicious Christian cult, obsessed with sin and terrified of hellfire, they used this as a method of social control, the worst kind of corruption, but all too common in Christendom. Likewise anybody growing up in one of the many abusive iterations of the religion can understandably hate Christianity. I was brought up Catholic (Roman), and rejected it nearly 30 years ago, the reasons are endless, the church has the blood of innocents on its hands, oceans of it. I only 'Grokked it' comparatively recently and now consider it to be my Netzach, for good or ill, as a key part of my cultural conditioning.

Anyway, my take on the topic:

A man arises who, having attained one of the higher trances, realises that he is God, and the son of God, and as any Bodhisattva is bound to do, sets about teaching what he knows. Yet the religious Tong of the time wants none of it, his point of view is blasphemous, claiming to be God, how dare he!?. God himself failed to live up to their image of God, (the angry, judgmental storm god YHVH), and so they have him executed for his hubris. The Romans are on hand to do this as the ruling political power at the time, albeit unwillingly, as you can tell from Pilate's reaction, he really can't see what Jesus has done wrong. But the religious authorities want him dead. Unable to outwit him they betray him.

Yet even here it gets interesting. Being God, he knows (as the Buddhists know) that suffering is intrinsic to existence, but the only way to get on is to accept things as they are, to accept the suffering and pain as part of the deal for us biological organisms. He puts his money where his mouth is, and goes calmly to a painful death. This is exactly in line with the Rose-Cross formula, not in the sense of vicarious atonement as is commonly taught among Thelemites (a very Hebrew idea, for anyone familiar with the idea of the scape-goat) but in accepting life as it is, suffering and all.

You have to remember that Christ was a Jew, his religious education was via the Torah, largely the Septuagint which dates from around the 2nd century BC, which is why the Catholic church accepts St Jerome's translation into the Vulgate as valid. If it's good enough for Christ and his apostles, it's good enough for his church. He taught from a Jewish perspective, and knowing that YHVH is simply God in their terms, I think he saw no reason to go into fine shades of differentiation. This is no different from Thelemites using the term Holy Guardian Angel, despite its absurdity, because a child can understand it. This use of names for God is covered in the preliminary texts of the A.'.A.'., so I doubt I need to elaborate.

But I digress.... 

Existence might be pure joy in theory, but there is still old age, sickness and death (and taxes). Basically, if one would be master of existence and recognise one's own godhead (be saved) one must start by accepting the conditions of existence, warts and all, as willed from the beginning by yourself (we don't mourn the passing of millions of cells in our body daily, not the deaths of the mites on our skin when we wash, although the undoubtedly suffer death). In practical terms this means help where you can help, be kind to people since we all have suffering, but ultimately acquiesce to the basic conditions of life. After all, if he were God, why did he not just eliminate suffering, or even save himself, unless these things were essential to his nature, which is the nature of existence?  

He didn't simply teach to worship a far off God, he taught, from the point of view of one who recognised that 'I and my father are one', (John 10:30) and that 'the Kingdom of heaven are within you' (Luke 17:21), that each one of us is God (every man and every woman is a star), so you worship and honour your neighbour as if she were God (because she is), and treat them as yourself, because they are yourself, from your Gods eye view.

So, in terms of method, the Christian method of attainment is as follows: You are God, so is everybody else. Act like it!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @pertinax

the Rabbis, hated him and had him killed

Yes, this is the crux of "The Osiris" Aeon ... as it affects western civilization, and a lot of third-world places as well.

Posted by: @pertinax

So, in terms of method, the Christian method of attainment is as follows: You are God, so is everybody else. Act like it!

An excellent epistle. No sarcastic comments are required.

 


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Tiger
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There are currents and movements to sacrifice the temporal for the eternal life ( Dying Resurrected model )
as well as the freedom from the eternal life, to live fully in the moment ( Anointing the Crowned and Conquering Consciousness ).


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

An excellent epistle. No sarcastic comments are required.

Unless of course, this was in itself a very subtle form of sarcasm!?

Posted by: @dom

The Tree has two pillars of Severity and Mercy.

But it has three pillars:   Severity, Mercy, and the Middle one.  And it only has one pillar each of Severity and Mercy (not two).

Arithmetically yours,

N Joy (in practice.)


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dom
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Posted by: @pertinax

to worship a far off God, he taught, from the point of view of one who recognised that 'I and my father are one', (John 10:30) and that 'the Kingdom of heaven are within you' (Luke 17:21), that each one of us is God (every man and every woman is a star), so you worship and honour your neighbour as if she were God (because she is), and treat them as yourself, because they are yourself, from your Gods eye view.

So, in terms of method, the Christian method of attainment is as follows: You are God, so is everybody else. Act like it!

Yes where monotheists get it wrong is their separation between God and Human in an act of kneeling.  This is dealt with here;

AL

1:21. With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Unless of course, this was in itself a very subtle form of sarcasm!?

No. You just have a dirty mind.

 


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dom
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In Mathew 9:10 there appears to be a party going on where harlots etc were present as follows;

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.

There in the despised tax collector's house Christ told the story of the Prodigal Son.  He equates 'riotous living' or 'wild living' Luke 15:11-32 with death.  This contrasts greatly with the passages in AL about drunkenness, lust, strange drugs and gathering store of women and exceeding the nations of the Earth in splendour, being loud and adulterous and so on.

 

Likewise Christ had a few striking things to say about rich people  This was perhaps brilliantly captured by Woodie Guthrie in his work Jesus Christ;

 

 

Jesus Christ was a man who travelled through the land
Hard working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor."
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in his grave
He went to the sick, he went to the poor,
And he went to the hungry and the lame;
Said that the poor would one day win this world,
And so they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
He went to the preacher, he went to the sheriff,
Told them all the same;
Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the Poor,
But they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
When Jesus came to town, the working folks around,
Believed what he did say;
The bankers and the preachers they nailed him on a cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Poor working people, they follered him around,
Sung and shouted gay;
Cops and the soldiers, they nailed him in the air,
And they nailed Jesus Christ in his grave.
Well the people held their breath when they heard about his death,
And everybody wondered why;
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired.
That nailed Jesus Christ in the sky.
When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate.
When the patience of the workers gives away
"Would be better for you rich if you never had been born"
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
This song was written in New York City
Of rich men, preachers and slaves
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like he preached in Galillee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave.
 
So the Christian Way is bhakti yoga to the Bornless One inflaming oneself with prayer.  Where does that leave the A'A' curriculum and Crowley's Way (grades)  to God? 
 
By the way this is what John the Baptist said about Fire and Christ;
 
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.  MATHEW 3:11

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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This "baptism with fire" in Matthew is a reference to Noah in Genesis (not the his kid Ham seeing his pecker story, but the Ark one), where YHVH promises not to try to drown every living creature again, since it didn't even work the first time he tried:

13  I have set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds,

15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16 When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”

17 God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth.”

See also the "Negro spiritual"/gospel classic "Oh, Mary, Don't You Weep", most famously recorded by The Swan Silvertones in 1959, but The Caravans 1958 version is definitive, or maybe this i think pre-Caravans Inez Andrews version:

God gave Noah the rainbow sign
No more water, the fire next time

Rainbows are like YHVH's post-it note to himself: "Next time i decide to kill every living creature, ix-nay on the owning-dray; USE FIRE!"


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Unless of course, this was in itself a very subtle form of sarcasm!?

No. You just have a dirty mind.

No.  No dirt intended - must just be in your own mind!

"You - have been Dirt

and I don't care,

You have been Dirt 

- and I don't care,

'Cause I'm burning inside

And I'm the Fire of Life!

Said, do you feel it ...." (James Osterberg)

N Joy


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ignant666
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Can't we all just get a bong?

Jamie: Shiva is of an older generation, and may not realize that this "James Osterberg" is the Iggy Pop of the Stooges who comes up from time to time, and that you are quoting this Stooges song.


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

Can't we all just get a bong?

 

Was that in Mathew or Luke?

 

Bhakti God prayer as the way per se (as instructed by Christ) is not of this aeon i.e it isn't good enough.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @ignant666

Shiva is of an older generation, and may not realize that this "James Osterberg" is the Iggy Pop of the Stooges who comes up from time to time, and that you are quoting this Stooges song.

Well I don't know about that Ig (no pun intended) - it just seemed, uh, appropriate.

Posted by: @ignant666

Can't we all just get a bong?

Splendid idea. (I'm way ahead of you!)

Now, where were we?

N Joy


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @pertinax

to worship a far off God, he taught, from the point of view of one who recognised that 'I and my father are one', (John 10:30) and that 'the Kingdom of heaven are within you' (Luke 17:21), that each one of us is God (every man and every woman is a star), so you worship and honour your neighbour as if she were God (because she is), and treat them as yourself, because they are yourself, from your Gods eye view.

So, in terms of method, the Christian method of attainment is as follows: You are God, so is everybody else. Act like it!

Yes where monotheists get it wrong is their separation between God and Human in an act of kneeling.  This is dealt with here;

AL

1:21. With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit.

 

To be fair it's an easy trap to fall into. To use the Qabalistic model, for a person operating below Tiphareth the HGA appears as a separate entity so far removed as to appear as God to all intents and purposes. Rise a little higher and you have dhyana, man and angel are united, conscious communication can occur, and oddly, the angel disappears! Imagine your pet budgies sense of loneliness when you take away his mirror! 

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with kneeling for example. We all have a Malkuth, that we live in most of the time, our physical vehicle. By kneeling before the host for example, Christians make a sign of submission of the lower to the higher. The important differentiation is that for not a few Christians if you read the mystics, God is frequently referred to as the 'ground of being', which is no different to 'Buddha nature', and thus much more truly 'I' than the composite fleshy, emotional, intellectual and cultural vehicles that we walk around as in our daily lives. 

While the majority of Christians don't seem to get this, and remain adorers, those who advance in their prayer life to contemplation, make the necessary link, as per Galatians (2:20) "And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me."


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dom
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Posted by: @pertinax

 

To be fair it's an easy trap to fall into. To use the Qabalistic model, for a person operating below Tiphareth the HGA appears as a separate entity so far removed as to appear as God to all intents and purposes. Rise a little higher and you have dhyana, man and angel are united, conscious communication can occur, and oddly, the angel disappears! Imagine your pet budgies sense of loneliness when you take away his mirror! 

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with kneeling for example. We all have a Malkuth, that we live in most of the time, our physical vehicle. By kneeling before the host for example, Christians make a sign of submission of the lower to the higher. The important differentiation is that for not a few Christians if you read the mystics, God is frequently referred to as the 'ground of being', which is no different to 'Buddha nature', and thus much more truly 'I' than the composite fleshy, emotional, intellectual and cultural vehicles that we walk around as in our daily lives. 

While the majority of Christians don't seem to get this, and remain adorers, those who advance in their prayer life to contemplation, make the necessary link, as per Galatians (2:20) "And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me."

Fair enough but it still seems so terrestrial and earth-bound.  There's nothing particularly stellar about Christ and his teachings whereas Aiwazz and His dialogue is clearly coming from out there as well as inside.  This makes sense in that the Osirisian DNA- directive was the move towards the European hive (of Christendom) which would lead the way on Earth in the intensification of mass industry, massive social organization and technological acceleration of which a Thelemite (Jack Parsons) would play a role.

It's ironic that Christ gave the Jews and their zealots what they wanted if I'm not mistaken.  The Christian cult would overthrow Pagan Rome from the inside up and make Israel a protected Holy Land. 

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

There in the despised tax collector's house Christ told the story of the Prodigal Son.  He equates 'riotous living' or 'wild living' Luke 15:11-32 with death.  This contrasts greatly with the passages in AL about drunkenness, lust, strange drugs and gathering store of women and exceeding the nations of the Earth in splendour, being loud and adulterous and so on.

Again, you have cited the differences between the (outgoing) 6th ray and the (incoming) 7th ray. Since there is a marked distinction between the two, especially in your references, they must be opposite points of view. This automatically refers the conflict to the Horus-Set configuration ... which must be transcended. One is advised to "prefer neither," and get on with the work.

Posted by: @dom

So the Christian Way is bhakti yoga to the Bornless One inflaming oneself with prayer.  Where does that leave the A'A' curriculum and Crowley's Way (grades)  to God? 

You continue to not recognize that there are two "rays" operating here, except to say, "What?"

You continue to cite differences between Christianity and Thelema, followed by "what does this mean?" It means the times, they are a'changin'.

Yes, the ways of Blind Faith, Devotion, Bhakti Yoga & Guru Yoga, and Abstract Idealism are valid, but passing away from The Middle Pillar. The ways of Knowing Faith, Magic, and Do-It-Yourself projects are becoming the new validity, and they (things like the A.'.A.'. curriculum) are forming up to reinforce the sagging Middle Pillar.

Posted by: @ignant666

"USE FIRE!"

1) The Burning Ground.

2) The Ignition of the Causal Body (5=6).

3) The current Climate Change in the Upward Temp Vector.

Posted by: @ignant666

Can't we all just get a bong?

From my meager interpretation of a few posts, it seems likely that some folks are anti-Bong, at least for themselves. They will fail to get burned up by the holy fire. "Oh, there's plenty of time," they say, "I'll just do it the natural way." This is bovine excrement. Here we are at, or near,the tipping point of the transition ...

Posted by: @ignant666

Shiva is of an older generation, and may not realize

Non-realization. Yeah, that's it.

Posted by: @dom

Bhakti God prayer as the way per se (as instructed by Christ) is not of this aeon i.e it isn't good enough. 

Oh, good, you realized and summarized all that technical stuff I just wrote ... all on your own.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

This makes sense in that the Osirisian DNA- directive was the move towards the European hive (of Christendom) which would lead the way on Earth in the intensification of mass industry, massive social organization and technological acceleration of which a Thelemite (Jack Parsons) would play a role.

Oh, yes - Belarion Armillus Al Dajjal Antichrist (as he preferred to regard himself), you mean?

N Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

Oh, yes - Belarion Armillus Al Dajjal Antichrist (as he preferred to regard himself), you mean?

N Joy

Yes.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Yes.

Right... and whose "role" as "Antichrist" in terms of "the hive of Christendom lead[ing] the way on Earth" was that (in his own words) he had "come to fulfil the law of the Beast 666"?  Just checking there.

What a Marvel that man was!

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

What a Marvel that man was!

I always thought it was quite interesting that, whereas the last words of Jesus on the Cross were reportedly "It is finished," the last words of Jack Belarion were, reportedly, "I wasn't done yet..."

Devotion unto the Continuous One....

 


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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Belarion Armillus Al Dajjal Antichrist (as he preferred to regard himself)

His End came quicker than the crucifixion of Jesus.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

What a Marvel that man was!

In his 8=3  "coming out" letter, he called "upon all Thelemtes to join me in a holy war upon the Roman Catholic Church." That wasn't a very Christan thing to do ... but I guess it was Antichristian, so he obviously got engaged to the Therion paradigm.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

"I wasn't done yet..."

Aha. So we (humanity( has The Second Coming of Belarion to look forward to.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

the Therion paradigm.

And yet the fundamental message of Therion asked that all work through their baggage unto the development of their own paradigm.

And this is something I think we will see (in our future incarnations): diverse paradigms mingling and establishing "trade routes" as opposed to vying for dominance of the consensus reality field.  


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Progress was fashioned not out of Christian dark age consciousness but out of its demur; brought about by the likes of Lorenzo Valla, Erasmus, Marsilio Ficino, Tommaso Campanella, Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Parsons.

The Lion Serpent wrought into the fabric of sentient experience an advancement of evolution. The image of man nailed to a cross was replaced with an ecstatic dissolution of all into the Whore Mother of abominations Mistress of all and the mystery of her adulteries.

“ I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.
I am alone: there is no God where I am.

Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!
I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.
Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us. ”
AL II, 22.
AL II, 23.
AL I, I2.
AL I, 13.
AL II, 20.

“ LOE
Let him look upon the cup whose blood is mingled therein, for the wine of the cup is the blood of the saints. Glory unto the Scarlet Woman, Babalon the Mother of Abominations, that rideth upon the Beast4, for she hath spilt their blood in every corner of the earth and lo! she hath mingled it in the cup of her whoredom.

they have sealed up the Pylon with blood, lest the Angel of Death should enter therein.

They keep themselves from the kisses of my Mother Babylon, and in their lonely fortresses they pray to the false moon. And they bind themselves together with an oath, and with a great curse. And of their malice they conspire together, and they have power, and mastery, and in their cauldrons do they brew the harsh wine of delusion, mingled with the poison of their selfishness.
passion is like the giving-up of the self to the beloved.
Beautiful art thou. “

The Cry of the 12th Aethyr

For jesus sake.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @pertinax

 

To be fair it's an easy trap to fall into. To use the Qabalistic model, for a person operating below Tiphareth the HGA appears as a separate entity so far removed as to appear as God to all intents and purposes. Rise a little higher and you have dhyana, man and angel are united, conscious communication can occur, and oddly, the angel disappears! Imagine your pet budgies sense of loneliness when you take away his mirror! 

.................................

While the majority of Christians don't seem to get this, and remain adorers, those who advance in their prayer life to contemplation, make the necessary link, as per Galatians (2:20) "And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me."

In other words you are saying that Christ and the mystically inclined Christians attained dhyana via Bhakti prayers to the Bornless One/God without asana let alone pranayama and let alone e.g. tattva dharana ?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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I believe he's got it!


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

Aha. So we (humanity( has The Second Coming of Belarion to look forward to.

Parson's hatred for Christianity appears to be juvenile.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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I think that "hatred of Christianity" is a phase many/most of us have been through (or may still be in). No one hated Xianity more rabidly that i as a young man.

I still regard it as, in essence, Satanic, since the God of the Bible is clearly an objectively evil entity, who seeks worship through terrorism. and treats his creation in a manner that would have the ASPCA (RSPCA for you Brits) at your door if you did it to a dog.

But Xianity can unquestionably lead to attainment, is sometimes socially a positive force (and often the opposite, of course), and i would not say i am "anti-Xian" at this point.

I still thinks it's creepy. The first time my son saw a crucifix, a very large one (like 4-5' high) on the wall of a bodega, when he was 5 or so, he screamed "What are they doing to that man?" The second one he saw, a couple years later, he pointed and said "Look! It's Fucking!" We explained that no, that guy is called Jesus. He said "i knew his name was a bad word!"


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

I think that "hatred of Christianity" is a phase many/most of us have been through (or may still be in). No one hated Xianity more rabidly that i as a young man.

 

I think that this is going to turn into a Yorkshiremen Python sketch scenario where (instead of bemoaning how hard they had it as a lad) each member of Lashtal will try to outdo each other on how much they hated Christianity as a child or adolescent.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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My point is that this is an immature phase, that one grows out of (or not, i suppose). Reminded of the old joke "Cocaine is an IQ test- if you're still doing it, you failed". So is hating Xianity.


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Barbara
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@ignant666,

I do agree that the crucifix with a figure of Jesus on it is disturbing. I also contend that wearing an instrument of torture (a cross) as jewelry is also a bit off. I am a purist at heart, and try to go by what the Bible says, and not follow the dictates of any particular church or creed.

I am sorry you had such a bad experience with Christianity. For me, it has been very freeing. I am free from guilt and shame. I am a new creation, and if you knew the life I led before I found Jesus, you would say that I am a better person for it, too.

@kidneyhawk,

You said that Crowley was a dysfunctional and f—-d up guy. Shall we say “sinful?” He fashioned himself after a Biblical character (Satan) and took it to great extent. Can you explain to me how you can be a fan of both Crowley and Jesus? To me they are polar opposites.

Barbara


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Posted by: @barbaragreen

if you knew the life I led before I found Jesus, you would say that I am a better person for it, too.

Things don't have to be true within their own terms to be of immense personal benefit.

I think Alcoholics/Narcotics Anonymous is dead wrong about many things, but i've seen many turn their lives around through attending meetings. Hare Krishna turned lots of punk/skinhead kids i knew from violent hoodlums to reasonably solid citizens. [i suppose i should add that Thelema, and academia, turned me from a violent punk/skinhead hoodlum into... whatever you may care to call me today]

Xianity may be among those things; you (Barbara) may well say "And Thelema?" Maybe. We take a very empirical approach to spirituality: the main question is, just like in doing science, "Does it work?", not "Is it true?'


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

I still regard it as, in essence, Satanic, since the God of the Bible is clearly an objectively evil entity, who seeks worship through terrorism

Right. I was just working on this yesterday. The "God of the Bible" is a mixed affair. In Genesis, "He" is the Elohim, which (as we all know today, thanks to Allan Bennett, means "the gods." In the Eden Eviction Scense, "God" says to the others, "Look, they have become as one of us." 

Since everything started shifting to monotheism, when Mosheh talked to "I Am," this YHWH guy got promoted to "The One God." Aten and Allah went through the same promotion in other cultures.

Even the Elohim were tough enough to Evict their Created Beings from the Garden.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

To me they are polar opposites.

And this identifies the operative level that your consciousness is operating at. I'm not going to point out the level, or give it a name or a number, but around here the daily grind involves an attempt to resolve/transcend opposites. The full liturgy is ...

"Every man and every woman is a star. Every number is infinite. There is no difference."

As long as one (anyone) holds a point of view, or an opinionated outlook, they are (at best) operating in the middle, intermediary phase of liberation, and (at worst) they are bigoted beginners. I would encourage everyone to get over this "Us versus Them" syndrome. The problem is, nobody can get over it unless they get with the "higher aspects" of the program.

Posted by: @ignant666

whatever you may care to call me today

Enigma?

 


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dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

My point is that this is an immature phase, that one grows out of (or not, i suppose). Reminded of the old joke "Cocaine is an IQ test- if you're still doing it, you failed". So is hating Xianity.

Yeah of course I agree however due to reading the right literature (in my teens) and having the right educated friends I unconsciously knew that Christ and his Saints were sorta cool but a lot of 'christian' church activity was overwhelmingly not really cool.  

Having said that is Christ's church really defunct in terms of genuinely bringing people to the Kingdom of Heaven (Bhakti- dhyana) and to developing a social conscience? 

Posted by: @barbaragreen

 

You said that Crowley was a dysfunctional and f—-d up guy. Shall we say “sinful?” He fashioned himself after a Biblical character (Satan) and took it to great extent. Can you explain to me how you can be a fan of both Crowley and Jesus? To me they are polar opposites.

Barbara

Barbara this is a text written by Crowley.  Note how he holds Christ in high esteem here (point number 4); 

 

http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0030.html

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @pertinax

 

To be fair it's an easy trap to fall into. To use the Qabalistic model, for a person operating below Tiphareth the HGA appears as a separate entity so far removed as to appear as God to all intents and purposes. Rise a little higher and you have dhyana, man and angel are united, conscious communication can occur, and oddly, the angel disappears! Imagine your pet budgies sense of loneliness when you take away his mirror! 

.................................

While the majority of Christians don't seem to get this, and remain adorers, those who advance in their prayer life to contemplation, make the necessary link, as per Galatians (2:20) "And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me."

In other words you are saying that Christ and the mystically inclined Christians attained dhyana via Bhakti prayers to the Bornless One/God without asana let alone pranayama and let alone e.g. tattva dharana ?

That's pretty much what I'm saying yes. Prayer is basically a form of Yoga, there's no need to get hung up on one or another system, let alone terminology. The desert fathers of Egypt led lives of simple asceticism, prayer, renunciation, and physical labour, and this developed into and informed the monastic movements that still exist today. What is kneeling for long periods in prayer, if not asana and dharana? What is meditating on the cross, if not tattva dharana?

Crowley notes that the man Jesus spent his early years in obscurity before coming to the people with his message, and goes as far as to posit that this first part of his life was spent in prayer and meditation. In any case we know he knew his Torah at least as well as the professionally religious of his time, so it's safe to assume that a considerable amount of his time was spent in religious education. 

There are a bunch of others dating from the 1st to 21st centuries who have taken prayer to a refined method of attainment. Molinos, Meister Eckhart, Thomas Merton, St. John of the Cross, Paul Tillich, to name a few that I think worth looking at. While your common Christian grows up thinking of prayer as a form of wishing to an invisible sky daddy, (that's how it was explained to me, and a person might be forgiven for rejecting Christianity as imbecile on that basis alone), but these people were using it as practical yoga encompassing Bhakti, Jnana, Hatha and Karma type methodologies.


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wellreadwellbred
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With respect to the current pope's Jesuit background:

"... The Spiritual Exercises are a compilation of meditations, prayers, and contemplative practices developed by St. Ignatius Loyola to help people deepen their relationship with God. For centuries the Exercises were most commonly given as a “long retreat” of about 30 days in solitude and silence. In recent years, there has been a renewed emphasis on the Spiritual Exercises as a program for laypeople.  The most common way of going through the Exercises now is a “retreat in daily life,” which involves a monthslong program of daily prayer and meetings with a spiritual director.  The Exercises have also been adapted in many other ways to meet the needs of modern people."

(Source: "Home Ignatian Prayer The Spiritual Exercises The Spiritual Exercises" - - - https://www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/ )


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Barbara
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@ignant666,

I have always been a seeker after truth. Truth matters. Once I found the truth, the results followed. I think it is backwards to say that results are what comes first.

Barbara


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

is Christ's church really defunct in terms of genuinely bringing people to the Kingdom of Heaven

There's and old saying: Many people attain, not because of the Church, but in spite of it.

 


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Barbara
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@shiva,

I agree with you 100%, Shiva. I have never found any church that was a good fit for me. I believe the Bible and the fact that we are all sinners, but it seems that as soon as a church gains a foothold, it loses its spontaneity and fire.

I have been told that the reason I didn’t believe a church’s particular doctrine was that I wasn’t studying prayerfully enough. I have sent Jehovah’s Witnesses scurrying from the house shaking the dust off their feet as they went. I have tried church after church, only to be disappointed again and again. Yet, I still believe passionately. 

There is a story in Luke 7 that describes my life exactly. In it, the woman washes Jesus’ feet with her tears and dries them with her hair. That is how grateful I feel for the newness of life I have received. That is all. It is truth, and it works.

Barbara


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

 

There's and old saying: Many people attain, not because of the Church, but in spite of it.

 

Yeah but curiously enough the right people (traditionally) were canonized so someone in the upper echelons must have had good judgement.

Posted by: @pertinax
Posted by: @dom

In other words you are saying that Christ and the mystically inclined Christians attained dhyana via Bhakti prayers to the Bornless One/God without asana let alone pranayama and let alone e.g. tattva dharana ?

That's pretty much what I'm saying yes. Prayer is basically a form of Yoga, there's no need to get hung up on one or another system, let alone terminology. The desert fathers of Egypt led lives of simple asceticism, prayer, renunciation, and physical labour, and this developed into and informed the monastic movements that still exist today. What is kneeling for long periods in prayer, if not asana and dharana? What is meditating on the cross, if not tattva dharana?

 

Presumably this happens in Judaism and in Islam even outside of Sufism. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Yeah but curiously enough the right people (traditionally) were canonized so someone in the upper echelons must have had good judgement.

I fail to see how this relates to my post you replied to. Also, I fail to grok your assessment of the Catholic Hierarchy.

 


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Tiger
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Spiritual Exercises devoid of original sin, free from bane, and devotional exercises that affirm the star have been exalted; and the need for the nails, coffins and crosses in rituals of attachment to be forgiven in order to merge with a belief system have been downgraded.
An evolutionary adjustment of composure.


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