Christianity and Th...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Christianity and Thelema

Page 10 / 16

hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 

Don’t forget Luke’s version, where the promise of fulfillment in heaven is more explicit. 

Luke 6:20-26

Maybe take those scissors out for this version. 

Maybe go through verse 36.


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1863
 

This is the very image of the XIth Atu

Ah the other Jesus; The Secret Serpent Nehushtan King Cobra Upright Shining Anointed Seed Sothis Christos.

“ I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory.
Be strong, O man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.
Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us
in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them
at rule, at victorious armies
trample
on the low men
in the fierce lust of your pride, in the day of your wrath. “
ATU XI

Some claim he whose skin was the color of burnt bronze did not speak greek.

I’ll have to alert the translators to correct Matthew 5:5 from meek to “ lion-serpent. (This card is attributed to the letter Teth, which means a serpent.)
The Word of drunkenness or ecstasy. more than a little drunk, and more than a little mad; aflame with lust. This signifies that the type of energy described is of the primitive, creative order; it is completely independent of the criticism of reason.
An emblem of the new light, with ten horns of the Beast, which are serpents, sent forth in every direction to destroy and re-create. “

OLALAM IMAL TUTULU

 


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  

Meek inheriting the earth? You'd have to take that in the context of the other people mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount also and what they will inherit e.g.the poor in spirit etc.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Pertinax
(@pertinax)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 86
 
Posted by: @dom

Meek inheriting the earth? You'd have to take that in the context of the other people mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount also and what they will inherit e.g.the poor in spirit etc.

'poor in spirit', by which I understand to mean 'those who are empty', or 'those who are not full of themselves', in the wu-wei sense.

The more I read the sermon on the mount the more I realise it is a pretty passable recipe for attainment, given the times and the audience he was addressing.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

Michael Staley: "... a passage inMagick without Tearswhich Kenneth Grant quoted at the beginning ofOuter Gateways:

"My observation of the Universe convinces me that there are beings of intelligence and power of a far
higher quality than anything we can conceive of as human; that they are not necessarily based on the cerebral and nervous structures that we know, and that the one and only chance for mankind to advance as a whole is for individuals to make contact with such Beings.""

(Source:  Letter Crowley to Germer, Summer 1947? - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/requests/letter-crowley-to-germer-summer-1947/#post-114145  )

 

My impression is that it isn't like conservative religious circles within Christianity have given much thought to how we would deal with actual ET contac, and that most conservative Christians would be troubled by such contact.

Do you think there would be any major difference[-s] between how Christians and Thelemites would deal with actual ET contact?

(I suspect some Thelemites would be troubled if actual ET contact involved further explanation[-s] of the content of Aleister Crowley's The Book of the Law.)


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pertinax
Posted by: @dom

Meek inheriting the earth? You'd have to take that in the context of the other people mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount also and what they will inherit e.g.the poor in spirit etc.

'poor in spirit', by which I understand to mean 'those who are empty', or 'those who are not full of themselves', in the wu-wei sense.

The more I read the sermon on the mount the more I realise it is a pretty passable recipe for attainment, given the times and the audience he was addressing.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

~ Mathew 5-7.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

(Bold, added by me to quoted text:)

Pertinax: "'poor in spirit', by which I understand to mean 'those who are empty', or 'those who are not full of themselves', in the wu-wei sense.

The more I read the sermon on the mount the more I realise it is a pretty passable recipe for attainment, given the times and the audience he was addressing."

 

The sermon of the mount is within mainstream Christianity understood as "a recipe" for who belongs to the Messianic age after the Second Coming:  

" [...] Matthew 5:3 is the third verse of the fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. It is the opening verse of the Sermon on the Mount, and the section of the sermon known as the Beatitudes. 

[...]  [Matthew 5:3. :] Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (KJV)

[...] Scholars agree that "poor in spirit" does not mean lacking in spirit, be it courage, the Holy Spirit, or religious awareness. Rather it is that poverty is not only a physical condition, but also a spiritual one. In fact, the more self aware a person is of his or her spiritual poverty caused by the innate human condition of the sinful nature, the more one is humbly aware that they are "poor in spirit" left to his or her own ways without Jesus Christ as Savior. Without Jesus the Christ alive and active in one's soul, it remains in a completely impoverished spiritual state; once a person declares Jesus as Lord and Savior of his or her life, Jesus sustains them through a daily renewing of their poor spirit: "Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.'" (John 6:35).

The important phrase Kingdom of Heaven is generally understood as referring to the Messianic age after the Second Coming. [...]"

(Source: Matthew 5:3 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:3  )

 


ReplyQuote
Pertinax
(@pertinax)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 86
 
Posted by: @dom

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

~ Mathew 5-7.

Do you have any thoughts on the rest of the sermon? I've said what I think of two sections but haven't thought about the rest just yet. I'm kind of busy with other projects.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

[...] Scholars agree that "poor in spirit"

I'm not a scholar, but a mystic, so I reserve the right not to accept received wisdom where is doesn't match my own experience. Although you can see from the following that I differ only fractionally. 

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

In fact, the more self aware a person is of his or her spiritual poverty caused by the innate human condition of the sinful nature, the more one is humbly aware that they are "poor in spirit" left to his or her own ways without Jesus Christ as Savior. Without Jesus the Christ alive and active in one's soul, it remains in a completely impoverished spiritual state; once a person declares Jesus as Lord and Savior of his or her life, Jesus sustains them through a daily renewing of their poor spirit: "Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.'" (John 6:35).

Understood qabalistically, this is exactly right. I consider that the Christ resides in Tiphareth (where the real crucifixion happens), and until that is attained our poverty is immeasurable. To try to attain something implies knowledge of something lacking, so those who step onto the path to tiphareth acknowledge that they lack it, and are therefore poor of spirit.

This is no different to saying that without the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel man is the most wretched of creatures, aware of his calamity and helpless to do anything about it (to paraphrase AC). His spiritual poverty is palpable to him, intolerable enough that he sets out on the path of return, to awaken that inmost light which is no different to saying to seek Christ within. Only then can he say, "And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me." Galatians 2:20 Douey Rheims.

I feel that one can only 'declare' Jesus as Lord and Saviour when he has experienced it. Of course a person can lie, or be deceived, or understand things from another perspective, it doesn't matter. The main thing is that this inner recognition occurs and the direction of the persons life changes as a result, they are what Christians refer to as 'born again'. If it doesn't change them, then it doesn't count. 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(Bold, added by me to quoted text:)

I see. You will continue to thump quote other people, but your heart is em-faze-sized in Bold.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The more I read the sermon on the mount

I hate to shatter anyone's dreams, but The Sermon on the Mount is taken direct, maybe with some twists, from the Talmud ...

"Long before the Christian Era, the Jews ... chose twelve missionaries to travel to all foreign towns with Jewish colonies to teach exiled Jews and collect tributes. Similar practices exist today. These twelve selected rabbis produced a lengthy document called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. The first six chapters are obviously pre-Christian.

Then comes a portion very similar to The Sermon on the Mount, but actually taken from the Talmud.

For example,

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for them that persecute you; for what reward have ye if ye love them that love you? Do not the Gentiles also the same? But love ye them that hate you and ye shall have no enemy.

"Abstain from the fleshly and worldly lusts. If anyone give thee a blow on the right cheek, turn to him the other also, and thou shalt be perfect; if anyone compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain; if anyone take thy cloak give him thy coat also; if anyone take from thee what is thine, ask it not back, for indeed thou canst not. To everyone that asketh thee give."

- Hot Zones - coming sooner


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

Dom: "Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how?"

I detect a compatibility in the JC of Christianity and AC's Thelema, in that both JC & AC claims to have been sent to spread their respective message[-s]:

[Gospel of Luke, chapter 4, Jesus Preaches in Judea:] "42. At daybreak, Jesus went out to a solitary place, and the crowds were looking for Him. They came to Him and tried to keep Him from leaving. 43. But Jesus told them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well, because that is why I was sent.”"

"All this is clear proof of the unspeakable power and wisdom of those who have sent me to proclaim the Law." (Source: Aleister Crowley, Confessions, Part Four: Magical Workings, Chapter 65, page 600).

 


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

 

I hate to shatter anyone's dreams, but The Sermon on the Mount is taken direct, maybe with some twists, from the Talmud ...

The fact that Christ may have borrowed from an earlier source doesn't detract from His point and doesn't shatter anyone's dreams" thereby.

 

For example;

 

Revelation 22:11 Let Him who is filthy be filthy still.

 

AL 2:57. He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Pertinax
(@pertinax)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 86
 
Posted by: @shiva

I hate to shatter anyone's dreams, but The Sermon on the Mount is taken direct, maybe with some twists, from the Talmud ...

Christ was pretty clear that he came to fulfill the law rather than destroy it. That was what so angered the Pharasees, he was rubbing their hypocrisy in their faces.

"Do you think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17 

That must have been the galling thing for them. Here's this guy, demanding that they follow out the Mosaic law, down to the last "Jot and tittle" (what a phrase), when they were more interested in clinging to the vestiges of power left by the Roman invaders, disrupting the delicate balance of power, they had compromised and it had corrupted them, they hated him for showing them that fact, no wonder they had him crucified.

Posted by: @dom

The fact that Christ may have borrowed from an earlier source doesn't detract from His point and doesn't shatter anyone's dreams" thereby.

Completely. Considering that the old testament books date back some 3000+ years, containing myths dating back long before (Noah appears in the epic of Gilgamesh). We are all, by using AC's texts, the Bible, Buddhist sutras, or the beano, borrowing from earlier sources. The fun is in sifting the wheat from the chaff....and there is such a lot of chaff to sift.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

I detect a compatibility in the JC of Christianity and AC's Thelema, in that both JC & AC claims to have been sent to spread their respective message[-s] ...

Yes, this is a good starting point. Birds of a feather chirp together ... bring us the same line, "I was sent."

Posted by: @dom

The fact that Christ may have borrowed from an earlier source doesn't detract from His point and doesn't shatter anyone's dreams" thereby.

Um, it doesn't shatter your dream, because you are a scholar in these matters and you have studied other schools of thought, and you know that everybody borrows from everybody else, especially if it's olden time stuff.

Surely, it appears that he was quoting scripture, not channeling something new. Talmud-thumping, as it were.

The shattering might occur to someone who is locked into the Jesus Myth and The Sermon on the Mount being the central doc of the Christian faith - the 7=4 thesis equivalent in One Star.

Posted by: @dom

AL 2:57. He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still.

Why, you're not accusing AC's subconscious of Bible-thumping into his pristine, clearly-channeled message, are you?

 


Pertinax liked
ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pertinax
Posted by: @dom

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

~ Mathew 5-7.

Do you have any thoughts on the rest of the sermon? 

Well I had thought that its about the joy involved in overcoming imbalance and limitation.  

Talking about limitations if we view Christ's promises about attainment of the Kingdom what actual methods did he teach?  Say the Our Father prayer daily?  Is that it?  He could've described specific methods like Crowley attempts.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  

(Sorry, edit timeout)....Like Crowley or the Buddhists did.   It's almost like Christ," Zen Master" who fully understands human limitations, just describes what will be if you do the work but no details of the work are given as such.  This is probably why the are so many self styled Christians who are clearly working for The Devil whilst they preach but I don't think you get that with Buddhism.  Not as much anyway.

Oh yeah giving to the poor is part of Christ's methodology.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1863
 

Then comes a portion very similar to The Sermon on the Mount, but actually taken from the Talmud.

I staffed a lecture by an esteemed Rabbanite from Israel who said that Jesus was one among many Jewish wanna be messiahs; who simplified the teaching so that regular people could understand the wisdom of the Jews. There are many erudite Jews that can do the same but they do not claim to be the Messiah. One can get something out teachings without believing whether Jesus was resurrected or not.

Apologists for failed predictive prophecies have banded together competing fragile cultural fictions with massive tendentious reinterpretations of reinterpretations in order to recast and squeeze out a screed out of the collection of different competing books 73 Catholic 66 Protestant 81 Ethiopian Coptic, 39 Hebrew, 52 Gnostic etc in the yaking class of theology.


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @dom

Talking about limitations if we view Christ's promises about attainment of the Kingdom what actual methods did he teach?  Say the Our Father prayer daily?  Is that it?  He could've described specific methods like Crowley attempts.

Posted by: @dom

 It's almost like Christ," Zen Master" who fully understands human limitations, just describes what will be if you do the work but no details of the work are given as such. 

This is why I referred to Christianity as a sort of bhakti religion. 

Devotion is the method. Devotion to God and devotion to one's neighbor, seeing and performing service to the "other" as to Christ. 

Before we get to the "believeth in me" of John, we have the "follow me" of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The method is devotional imitation. 


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @hermitas
 

This is why I referred to Christianity as a sort of bhakti religion. 

Devotion is the method. Devotion to God and devotion to one's neighbor, seeing and performing service to the "other" as to Christ. 

Before we get to the "believeth in me" of John, we have the "follow me" of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The method is devotional imitation. 

But bhakti.is an advanced practice certainly for the average Christian.  Just bhakti alone is ineffectual.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas
 

This is why I referred to Christianity as a sort of bhakti religion. 

Devotion is the method. Devotion to God and devotion to one's neighbor, seeing and performing service to the "other" as to Christ. 

Before we get to the "believeth in me" of John, we have the "follow me" of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The method is devotional imitation. 

But bhakti.is an advanced practice certainly for the average Christian.  Just bhakti alone is ineffectual.

I’m not certain either of those statements is correct. 

Regardless, that was Jesus’ primary instruction.


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1825
 
Posted by: @pertinax

Understood qabalistically, this is exactly right. I consider that the Christ resides in Tiphareth (where the real crucifixion happens), and until that is attained our poverty is immeasurable.

Or measurable, in the sense that evaluatable work would first be necessary in the preliminary/ preparatory spheres of Malkuth, Yesod, Hod and Netzach respectively.

Posted by: @dom

Talking about limitations if we view Christ's promises about attainment of the Kingdom what actual methods did he teach?  Say the Our Father prayer daily?  Is that it?  He could've described specific methods like Crowley attempts.

Maybe he did but these have become lost through the passage of time?  Maybe they might be rediscovered in some Nag Hammadi/Dead Sea Scrolls fashion later on?

Posted by: @pertinax

Christ was pretty clear that he came to fulfill the law rather than destroy it.

Further to @dom's point about methods, I don't think he ever actually declared the Ten Commandments Abrogate, did he?  Did he go so far as to recommend keeping them (all) assiduously?

Posted by: @shiva

Surely, it appears that he was quoting scripture, not channeling something new. Talmud-thumping, as it were.

Good point. (=Thumb raised.)

Posted by: @shiva

Then comes a portion very similar to The Sermon on the Mount, but actually taken from the Talmud.

For example,

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for them that persecute you; for what reward have ye if ye love them that love you? Do not the Gentiles also the same? But love ye them that hate you and ye shall have no enemy.

"Abstain from the fleshly and worldly lusts. If anyone give thee a blow on the right cheek, turn to him the other also, and thou shalt be perfect; if anyone compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain; if anyone take thy cloak give him thy coat also; if anyone take from thee what is thine, ask it not back, for indeed thou canst not. To everyone that asketh thee give."

An astonishing rather idealistic admixture of sage together with thoroughly unpragmatic advice, combined with an un-reasonable & unhealthy command for abstention!

Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

But bhakti.is an advanced practice certainly for the average Christian.  Just bhakti alone is ineffectual.

 

I’m not certain either of those statements is correct.

 

Nor am I, quite.  Devotional (bhakti) worship is all that a lot of Christians have got (Barbara?).  Is there anything more with which to back either (both) of these statements up?

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @dom

the are so many self styled Christians who are clearly working for The Devil

But, the Devil does not exist. Says so in Book the 4th.

Also, what makes this impossible scenario "clear?"

Posted by: @tiger

without believing whether Jesus was resurrected or not.

Or whether he was real, or not. Or just one of many wanna-bees, who were wandering around, and raving, who (along with their memorized holy books) were lumped together in a composite figure called Yeshua.

This is all covered in Hot Zones, the sneak preview of which is now being oriented toward your inboxes and should be posted here (on some other thread, in another forum) in a few hours. I say should be, and not will be, because the opposition has been horrendous and horrible. If I push, even with Will be, the archons get all disturbed and such.

Posted by: @tiger

Apologists for failed predictive prophecies have banded together competing fragile cultural fictions with massive tendentious reinterpretations of reinterpretations in order to recast and squeeze out a screed out of the collection of different competing books

Yeah, that's the one. I see you've already read the book. My version has now gotten to the 15% uploaded point. May sure you have a landing pad for a pdf that is almost 0.5 Gb in size.

Posted by: @hermitas

This is why I referred to Christianity as a sort of bhakti religion. 

I do not see it as "sort of." It is a primary exponent, along with Muslimality (which I understand is bigger in terms of membership), of the 6th ray of devotion and abstract idealism.

Posted by: @hermitas

I’m not certain either of those statements is correct. 

Me too, also. Unite by your art so that all disappear.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Maybe he did but these have become lost through the passage of time?

More probably "censored," rather than lost. Christianity, in its organized non-profit corporate structure where the Cardinals and Popes live in magnificent splendor, is not a do-it-yourself curriculum.

 

 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2941
 
Posted by: @shiva

More probably "censored," rather than lost. Christianity, in its organized non-profit corporate structure where the Cardinals and Popes live in magnificent splendor, is not a do-it-yourself curriculum.

IE Scientology

 

How is the end of the world treating you? 

 

OTP is that Christianity is a crap show now. I dont think we shall see Barbara back soon.

That's sad because she seemed nice. Minus the proselytizing. 

 

I am doomed because I still eat meat. 

Wasn't 'GOD' a vegetarian? 

 

Edit to say Scientology still has non profit status 


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1825
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Dom: "Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how?"

I detect a compatibility in the JC of Christianity and AC's Thelema, in that both JC & AC claims to have been sent to spread their respective message[-s]

The following extracts from that relatively obscure and consequently rather underestimated little volume The Heart of the Master (1938) concerning AC's 'evangelical' role as the bona-fide  "World Teacher" have the following relevant passages (with my underlinings):

Above this parchment, which was partly furled, was a square tablet of white marble, on which, inlaid in gold, I read these characters about the Image of an Eye within a radiant Triangle.

S∴S∴

and this is, being interpreted, “The Great White Brotherhood.”

Below was written: With Us Two Thousand Years is as One Day.

Then my Instructor showed me that the Brotherhood send forth one of their fellows every two thousand years, bringing one Word to serve Mankind as a new Formula of Magick, that it may take one further step on the long road that leadeth to Perfection.

Then was I shewn the Mystery of the Words: how in the first period of recorded history men thought that life came from Woman alone, and worked by the Formula of Isis, worshipping Nature chaste and kindly, not understanding Death, or the Arcanum of Love.

So, when the time was ripe, appeared the Brethren of the Formula of Osiris, whose word is IAO; so that men worshipped Man, thinking him subject to Death, and his victory dependent upon Resurrection. Even so conceived they of the Sun as slain and reborn with every day, and every year.

Now, this great Formula being fulfilled, and turned into abomination, this Lion came forth to proclaim the Aeon of Horus, the crowned and conquering child, who dieth not, nor is reborn, but goeth radiant ever upon His Way. Even so goeth the Sun: for as it is now known that night is but the shadow of the Earth, so Death is but the shadow of the Body, that veileth his Light from its bearer.

Of this Prophet the Word is

ΘΕΛΗΜΑ.

Many and marvelous are the mysteries of this Word, and of the Numeration thereof! Nor may I declare them, save this the simplest, for the sake of little children:

“Love is the law, love under will.”

[THE MEDITERRANEAN MANIFESTO]

And this was the Proclamation:

TO MAN

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

My Term of Office upon the Earth being come in the year of the foundation of the Theosophical Society, I took upon myself, in my turn, the sin of the whole World, that the Prophecies might be fulfilled, so that Mankind may take the Next Step from the Magical Formula of Osiris to that of Horus.

And mine Hour being now upon me, I proclaim my Law.

The Word of the Law is θέλημα.

The Work of our Sister

Helena Petrowna Blavatsky

was inaugurated at the very season of the Birth on Earth of our Brother the Master whose Word is Thelema, whose Name is yet hidden under the form of a Lion. For it was most needful to prepare His Way that He might proclaim His Law in every land that is upon the surface of the Earth.

“And this work has been done by the Society founded to that end by our Sister. Yet even so, behold! Full Fifty years have passed, and only now is the hour of Power come upon our Brother the Lion to utter His Word with full efficacy to the whole Earth.”

Moreover hear this word: as a muscle is vain, except it be rightly ordered, so also is thy work to be made easy by uniting thyself to the Work of the Master, even Therion, whose True Will it is to bring each Man’s work to its perfection. To this end hath he proclaimed his Law; so also to that end, which is also thine, do thou add thy little strength to His great might.

O child of the dawn of the Aeon, thou hast divined aright and profited in thy being by the Law of Thelema. For the Law is a just Law; it demandeth not the crooked knee of slavery, and the bowed head of shame. Nay, shouldst thou speak even to the God of gods, stand thou erect, that thou mayest be one with Him by Love, as He most surely willeth.

Block-quotingly yours,

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Pertinax
(@pertinax)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 86
 
Posted by: @dom

(Sorry, edit timeout)....Like Crowley or the Buddhists did.   It's almost like Christ," Zen Master" who fully understands human limitations, just describes what will be if you do the work but no details of the work are given as such.  This is probably why the are so many self styled Christians who are clearly working for The Devil whilst they preach but I don't think you get that with Buddhism.  Not as much anyway.

Oh yeah giving to the poor is part of Christ's methodology.

I'd say that his methods certainly differ distinctly from AC's, which in the A.'.A.'. syllabus are largely mechanical and experimental in nature, suitable for the 19th and 20th century 'men of science' who he was hoping to attract.

When I read the Gospels and particularly the sermon I see something much more like the Buddhist precepts. The difference I think is that while the Liber E practices are essentially about personal training of the mind and body in isolation, the precepts and the sermon are more like models for behaviour in daily life aimed at what monastics call 'formation', which is much more about how we live and interact with the world, which is arguably both more difficult and more effective in the long term.

To illustrate, from a scientific perspective, it is much harder to conduct a field study (where there are hundreds of variables) than a lab study where you can control everything, but in the end it's the field studies which carry more weight, having already been tested in the real world. 

From a martial arts perspective, it's the difference between learning your art in the relatively safe space of the dojo, and testing it on the street against all comers.

Basically, what Christ is saying to do is actually much more difficult than the monastic option of going to live in a tiny cell and stare at the wall until your mind collapses. You have to deal with people, messy reality, and all the rest, and still keep balance.


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @pertinax

When I read the Gospels and particularly the sermon I see something much more like the Buddhist precepts. The difference I think is that while the Liber E practices are essentially about personal training of the mind and body in isolation, the precepts and the sermon are more like models for behaviour in daily life aimed at what monastics call 'formation', which is much more about how we live and interact with the world, which is arguably both more difficult and more effective in the long term.

Christ seems to criticize the state of Judaism at that time;  

Matthew 6:2
So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.

He does state that charity is literally a spiritual practice ( is this part of Thelema I wonder?) ; 

 

Matthew 6:4;

But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing

 

He goes on, highlighting the importance of (proper) solitary prayer-practice;   

 

 Matthew 6:5

when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…

 

..so this is the background to Christian attainment.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @dom

when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…

 

..so this is the background to Christian attainment. 

“Invoke often.”


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @dom

He does state that charity is literally a spiritual practice ( is this part of Thelema I wonder?) ; 

I believe it was in Magick Without tears that 666 advised Harris, anecdotally, to not toss a coin at a beggar, but rather take him inside and order both of "you" to a full-course dinner.

 

 


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1825
 
Posted by: @shiva

I believe it was in Magick Without tears that 666 advised Harris, anecdotally, to not toss a coin at a beggar, but rather take him inside and order both of "you" to a full-course dinner.

Maybe this was a case of her being put in a state whereby she could "dine or drink [or both] at them". 

Then they should be able to 'chance to abide in this bliss' - or not, as the case may be. It's of no odds (although quite expensive) either way.

N Joy


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @shiva

I believe it was in Magick Without tears that 666 advised Harris, anecdotally, to not toss a coin at a beggar, but rather take him inside and order both of "you" to a full-course dinner.

Maybe this was a case of her being put in a state whereby she could "dine or drink [or both] at them". 

Then they should be able to 'chance to abide in this bliss' - or not, as the case may be. It's of no odds (although quite expensive) either way.

N Joy

Sounds like bullshit, I doubt that adult-teenage brat Crowley did such things.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 2088
 
Posted by: @dom

Sounds like bullshit, I doubt that adult-teenage brat Crowley did such things

I will tend to agree. Crowley was reputed to order and then not pay for lavish meals-and also to take (i.e. steal) more than his share of rationed goods during the war. He absolutely felt "entitled" for his whole life. Well, he was a wanna-be aristocrat who also believed he was the most important religious figure alive.

Perhaps he DID bring a beggar in to dine...and then stuck him with the bill! 


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 

[brief intermission]

Jesus. 

It took a long time to read this whole thread.

My apologies for coming in late and going through some repetitious turns. 

And thank you. I feel like I needed this discussion years ago. Or, more actually, I needed to *see other Thelemites* having this discussion years ago. 

Aeons, and prophets, and religions, and prophecies, and Marks of the Beast, and really more semen than is my taste...

Funny. I had only just begun to be at peace with hating Christianity, myself being incredulous at the Christian support of one unnamed politician in the U.S. It was really the last straw for me. 

Then Christmas music flooded me with good and holy memories. 

There's that one writing, "Across the Gulf." The main character goes through the Equinox of the Gods, and it's just a little too much for him. He goes mad for a while. 

It's a lot. It's just a lot. 

And it's the same.

But it's not.

And you have to choose.

And that's hard. 

But it's done. 

And it's ...somber. 

And I was hoping for more 

Joy. 

But I do think that will come. 

Hopefully. 

Anyway... Woah..  

Enough of me. 

Thanks again. 

I'm off to see the Magus of the Well. 

[/brief intermission]


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @hermitas

 

Funny. I had only just begun to be at peace with hating Christianity, myself being incredulous at the Christian support of one unnamed politician in the U.S. It was really the last straw for me. 

Then Christmas music flooded me with good and holy memories. 

I'd forget this idea that people who go to Church are therefore necessarily Christians.   What?         

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas

 

Funny. I had only just begun to be at peace with hating Christianity, myself being incredulous at the Christian support of one unnamed politician in the U.S. It was really the last straw for me. 

Then Christmas music flooded me with good and holy memories. 

I'd forget this idea that people who go to Church are therefore necessarily Christians.   What?         

Dom. That’s why it hurts. They’re the same people. 


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @hermitas

     Dom. That’s why it hurts. They’re the same people. 

Should The Church get involved in politics/comment on economic management?  Good question.  Christ did.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Pertinax
(@pertinax)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 86
 

@hermitas

Posted by: @hermitas

Dom. That’s why it hurts. They’re the same people. 

From over here it looks more like the white, right-wing, evangelical Christian crowd are modern day Pharisees. For them, calling themselves Christian is a tribal signifier. If Christ turned up today and told them to help the poor and stop enriching themselves at everybody else's expense they'd probably crucify him.

Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one, any more than calling yourself a dog makes you a dog.

 


ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @pertinax

@hermitas

Posted by: @hermitas

Dom. That’s why it hurts. They’re the same people. 

From over here it looks more like the white, right-wing, evangelical Christian crowd are modern day Pharisees. For them, calling themselves Christian is a tribal signifier. If Christ turned up today and told them to help the poor and stop enriching themselves at everybody else's expense they'd probably crucify him.

Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one, any more than calling yourself a dog makes you a dog.

 

I’ve had the same thoughts.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

He absolutely felt "entitled" for his whole life.

This is prbably (certainly?) due to his childhood and young adult upbringing and self-expressing, with a lotta wealth and money in the bank. I always though it interesting that he had plenty money to travel and print the first 9 Equinoxes. If I'm not mistaken about trivia, he ran ot with the 9th. I also always wondered where he got the funds for #10. 

After that, he was on a different path, financially speaking. The Secret Chiefs saw that he had just enough backing to finish his task, that of "publishing The Equinoxes." A similar thing happened to Tesla, but he started off less aristoratically than AC, and he dug ditches for Edison's DC electric company for a living. After he gave his funds away, I don't think it affected his demeanor - that is, he didn't feel entitled.

The underlying moral of the story is that we all get programmed into our basic vehicle early on. Then nothing ever changes that. The surface persona might learn to adapt, and people will say, "Oh my, how he has changed," but in core values, deem ye not of change.

He that is righteous, shall be righteous still ...
and he that is haughty will do the same.

The only escape is to develop the ability to get out (see Book 333 - Ch 23). "They" say that a person can get so good at getting out that they get get out and stay out - for good (permanent samadhi). I only saw/felt this in one person. UG describes himself as being in that state. There is no evidence that AC entered that trance (permanent), but his writings indicate he was pretty good at getting out, but then he had to come back in again to, you know, get some drugs.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Perhaps he DID bring a beggar in to dine..

I used the word "anecdotally," perhaps improperly, to mean that he was not known to have done this act, but rather that he described it as something someone "should" do (if they were in an expansive Jesus mode with money in their pocket).

Posted by: @hermitas

really more semen than is my taste.

This is The Aleister Crowley Society. With Crowley, comes an entire, rather large segment of his philosophy that deals with sex, semen, and the seven secret chiefs. Sex, and its fluids, constitute the core energy of creation. Everybody, especially Crowley and Reuss, should have as much sex as they can handle, because it's another shortcut to getting out.

But I don't think it's the only way, nor is it "The Key to the Mysteries," except in a symbolic way. The Key is within you, but others can help you to understand that.

In one way, he (AC) is right. The existence of God, or the Devil, or the Seven Secret Chiefs, cannot be proven. But our source can be. Using basic biology, we can trace the source of our vehicle back to a sperm cell and an egg. From that, our primal union, our ultimate Chokmah and Binah in the rear-view mirror, we issue forth with our Kether - the "Source Shen" (original consciousness) of the heathen Chinese, to make up things about secret chiefs and God, and his adversary the horny horned guy.

Posted by: @hermitas

I'm off to see the Magus of the Well. 

That would be Chris. See his Avatar. Who else has a Well for an Avatar.

Posted by: @hermitas

That’s why it hurts

This is the Christ thread. If you're hurting, go to the Buddha thread. He describes how suffering is the result of desire. If you have a particular outcome in mind, that's a desire. Religious/political conflicts are handled in the 4th precinct, Netzach. There's a lot of psychology involved. I mean a lot. So I'll stop now.

 

 


hermitas liked
ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

. The Secret Chiefs saw that he had just enough backing to finish his task

These 'Chiefs' what were they doing for Christ and/or Buddha? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @dom

These 'Chiefs' what were they doing for Christ and/or Buddha? 

Perhaps you skipped the part where I wrote ...

Posted by: @shiva

... to make up things about secret chiefs and God ...

If they are "made-up," then they can't do anything for anybody ... although they showed up for Ignant and me. This scenario is covered in Hot Zones - now available.

 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

(Bold text in quotes, is not bold in the original source[-s]:)

 

Shiva: "... A) Frater Perdurabo - who gave us the Class D, How-to-do-it stuff. Three cheers for Frater P.'..

B) The Demon Crowley - who gave us obligatory (religious) dogma (such as saying "Will," paying dues in advance, and strict obedience to BafometR), and a mandatory obligation to recognize and obey The Great Beast and The scarlet Woman (as "Officers of the Aeon," of course), who I never met or even saw in a vision - although I did really need to identify with The Beast, down in the Pit, of course, in order to stay sane, once. So there's a lot of blind faith and potential belief to cope with.

Note: The Beast is nothing more than the Id. [...] Perhaps I have overstepped, or tripped, by revealing too much of the Mysteries on a pubik forum."

(Source: This thread, page 7 - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/christianity-and-thelema/paged/7/#post-113999 )

 

"... the entire Gospel of Mark – the original gospel all the rest were based on – is one great parable to conceal the secret, sacred truths of this mystery faith, the Mystery of the Kingdom of God. Mark has Jesus give this clue to the reader of his Gospel:

 

The Mystery of the Kingdom of God is given to you, but to those who are outside everything is produced in parables, so that when they watch they may see but not know, and when they listen they may hear but not understand, for otherwise they might turn themselves around and be forgiven.”

(Mark 4:11)

 

This exclusive secrecy makes no sense at all for a savior who came to save the whole world, but it makes perfect sense if Christianity began as a mystery faith. Like the pagan mysteries, the truths of Mark’s mystery of the Kingdom of God are being concealed behind parables, only explained to insiders. Mark is not reporting history; he is creating a framework for passing on a sacred mystery to a chosen few and no one else."

(Source: "Will The Real Jesus Please Stand Up? JANUARY 19, 2012 BY JT Eberhard" - - - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/01/will-the-real-jesus-please-stand-up/ )

 

A compatibility between the teachings of Jesus (C.) and (AC's) Thelema:

In the original or earliest Gospel of Mark, Jesus conceals the sacred thruths of his mystery cult behind parables, and in its original form the most sacred book of AC's Thelema (in which words like secret, mysteries and mystery occurres repeatedly), is concluded with the words:

"The Book of the Law is Written and Concealed. Aum. Ha."  

 

1) Where does AC aka Frater Perdurabo, in his Class D, How-to-do-it stuff, write most directly about the beyond the abyss stuff of his Thelema (, the Supernals, Kether, Chokmah, and Binah)?

2) And here does AC, in his more easy to understand writings, write most directly about the beyond the abyss stuff of his Thelema (, the Supernals, Kether, Chokmah, and Binah)?

 


hermitas liked
ReplyQuote
hermitas
(@hermitas)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
 
Posted by: @dom

Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema?  If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'

I’m really interested in the gnostic-gospel version of this question. However, I’ve only read the Gospel of Thomas a few times and not with that question in mind. 

Is that a new thread, or would it fall under the OP here?


ReplyQuote
David Dom Lemieux
(@david-dom-lemieux)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3214
Topic starter  
Posted by: @hermitas

I’m really interested in the gnostic-gospel version of this question. However, I’ve only read the Gospel of Thomas a few times and not with that question in mind. 

Is that a new thread, or would it fall under the OP here?

I'd say yeah you could start a new thread there, sounds good.

 

Posted by: @shiva

Perhaps you skipped the part where I wrote ...

Posted by: @shiva

... to make up things about secret chiefs and God ...

 they showed up for Ignant and me. This scenario is covered in Hot Zones - now available.

 

Yeah but what do you think they had to do in dealings with Christ and Buddha (Shakyamuni)?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(Bold text in quotes, is not bold in the original source[-s]:)

Shiva: "... A) Frater Perdurabo - ... etc

It seems you have quoted me ... then followed with replies/quotes that have nothing to do with what I wrote. Is there some sort of connection between my words and your quotes?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

1) Where does AC aka Frater Perdurabo, in his Class D, How-to-do-it stuff, write most directly about the beyond the abyss stuff of his Thelema (, the Supernals, Kether, Chokmah, and Binah)?

You seem to be confusing Class D practices with Class B Philosophy.

Class D stuff  is all about how-to-do-it - one is supposed to do the work and arrive at their own conclusions.

Class B (and certainly Class C) materials is where he runneth off at the oral orifice about supra-rational matters that cannot be revealed except by paradox.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

2) And here does AC, in his more easy to understand writings, write most directly about the beyond the abyss stuff of his Thelema (, the Supernals, Kether, Chokmah, and Binah)?

This seems to be the same question as 1), above, with just a slight shift in context. I have addressed it under "Class B" above. We can also toss in the unquestionable Class A things under supra-abysmal concepts, if you Will, but I don't (Will it), so it's probably best to forget it and just do the work.

Posted by: @dom

Yeah but what do you think they had to do in dealings with Christ and Buddha (Shakyamuni)?

"Yeah but?"   

Why in the world (and in the Kingdom of Heaven, too) would I "think" anything about seven illusionary guys and their relation to Yeshua and Siddhartha, who did not include the seven-fold archetype in the teachings?

(They may have mentioned the seven, but if so I missed it)

If I'm not mistaken, and I surely could be, the "secret chiefs" were originally some guys and gals in Germany who were involved in transmitting the basic cipher-docs to the Golden Dawn. Said chiefs were then adorned with supernatural powers. By the time Crowley came around, the secret chiefs had "chosen him," rather than he being chosen by "God," or my "Himself."

It's rather hard to "think" anything about subjects that are based on "made-up" illusionary attributions.

 

.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

Shiva, my point in quoting your statement[-s] about "... A) Frater Perdurabo - who gave us the Class D, How-to-do-it stuff. Three cheers for Frater P.'..

B) The Demon Crowley - who gave us obligatory (religious) dogma... " , is that all creeds [including AC's The Book of the Law and all other Class A writings of his Thelema] are crapulous or odious to the degree that they are hindrances, for any enthusiastic aspirant to the absolute, to Kether, or (with respect to Christianity;) "Union with God"

Can you without any knowledge of the Class A, B and C stuff in AC's Thelema, still attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", by doing AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff"??

Earlier on page 3 in this thread, Michael Staley posted this statement: "I haven't gone too deeply into the work of Christian mystics, but what I have read over the years convinces me that there is little if any difference between the "enthusiastic aspirant to the absolute, to Kether" and the Christian mystic seeking "Union with God"."

Does AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff", cover both the magick and the mystic approach to attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

"Crowley notes the Oath of the Abyss as, “I swear to interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul,” which of course is a first-class ticket to madness (and self-delusion) unless you're at a particular initiatory stage to understand it in its proper context—and let's be clear that this is after years and years of intense spiritual work."

(Source: The chapter titled Into the Abyss, in Thelema: An Introduction to the Life, Work & Philosophy of Aleister Crowley, by Colin D. Campbell.)

Can taking what AC called "the Oath of the Abyss", assist the Oath taker's attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

Shiva, my point in quoting your statement[-s] about "... A) Frater Perdurabo - who gave us the Class D, How-to-do-it stuff. Three cheers for Frater P.'..

B) The Demon Crowley - who gave us obligatory (religious) dogma... " , is that all creeds [including AC's The Book of the Law and all other Class A writings of his Thelema] are crapulous or odious to the degree that they are hindrances, for any enthusiastic aspirant to the absolute, to Kether, or (with respect to Christianity;) "Union with God"

Can you without any knowledge of the Class A, B and C stuff in AC's Thelema, still attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", by doing AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff"??

Earlier on page 3 in this thread, Michael Staley posted this statement: "I haven't gone too deeply into the work of Christian mystics, but what I have read over the years convinces me that there is little if any difference between the "enthusiastic aspirant to the absolute, to Kether" and the Christian mystic seeking "Union with God"."

Does AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff", cover both the magick and the mystic approach to attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

"Crowley notes the Oath of the Abyss as, “I swear to interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul,” which of course is a first-class ticket to madness (and self-delusion) unless you're at a particular initiatory stage to understand it in its proper context—and let's be clear that this is after years and years of intense spiritual work."

(Source: The chapter titled Into the Abyss, in Thelema: An Introduction to the Life, Work & Philosophy of Aleister Crowley, by Colin D. Campbell.)

Can taking what AC called "the Oath of the Abyss", assist the Oath taker in attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 6328
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Can you without any knowledge of the Class A, B and C stuff in AC's Thelema, still attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", by doing AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff"??

Of course "I" can, and so can "you" or anybody else. Other anybody elses can attain without knowing anything about AC or his Classes. What a strange question.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Crowley notes the Oath of the Abyss as, “I swear to interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul,”

Mr Campbell makes the usual and customary error of confusing the Oath of the Abyss with the Oath of a Magister. How can he be trusted in his interpretations and mixed-up opinions if he can't get the basic Oaths straight?

I see you are still quoting other people without sharing your own opinions.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

which of course is a first-class ticket to madness (and self-delusion) unless you're at a particular initiatory stage to understand it in its proper context—and let's be clear that this is after years and years of intense spiritual work."

Where do you find this drivel wherein people pretend to know what they're writing about?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Can taking what AC called "the Oath of the Abyss", assist the Oath taker's attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

Are you asking me? If so, I will not speculate further about these paradoxical questions, supported by quotes from mix-up nits, that you are asking.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1163
 

(Bold text in quotes, is not bold in the original source[-s]:)

 

Me: "Can you without any knowledge of the Class A, B and C stuff in AC's Thelema, still attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", by doing AC's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff"??"

Shiva: "Of course "I" can, and so can "you" or anybody else. Other anybody elses can attain without knowing anything about AC or his Classes. What a strange question."

My point is if a Christian individual can attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", by doing Aleister Crowley's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff",( without this Christian individual having any knowledge of the Class A, B and C stuff in his Thelema)?

Aleister Crowley's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff" is listed on the net at https://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/class-d/index, under the title "ΘΕΛΗΜΑ Official Rituals and Instructions of Thelema [...] The Technical Writings of Aleister Crowley Publications in Class D"

Aleister Crowley's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff" contains much that a Christian individual trying to use it to attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", will find problematic, for example as indicated by the following quotes from it:

"The Magician, his breast bare, stands before an altar on which are his Burin, Bell, Thurible, and two of the Cakes of Light. [...] He eats the second Cake. This Bread I eat. This Oath I swear As I enflame myself with prayer: “There is no grace: there is no guilt: This is the Law: DO WHAT THOU WILT!”"
(Source: (Book 44) "Liber XLIV The Mass of the Phœnix [...] A∴A∴ Publication in Class D." )

"([...], where in the past was written "our Lord Jesus Christ", write "our Lord Therion." For He is the Risen One, and Christ is this Aeon.)
[...]
the Messiah that Christians called their Lord & Savior Jesus Christ, that in his fabled death gave up the Spirit, the Water & the Blood, as is written in the Gospel of John. Hence to Christians this name Jesus Christ symbolized the Alpha & Omega, the union of GOD & man. Herein another Trinity: GOD, GOD-man, man. And to this GOD-man our ancient brethren gave many other names.
And though this name of Jesus Christ was universally blasphemed by Christians, yet this
name was acknowledged by the true Brothers of the Rosie Cross; & what was written of Him in the
Evangels & the Epistles & the Apocalypse was true, if it be interpreted in light by the adepts of the
Stone. For this GOD-man is in truth ourselves: we are both GOD & men. Yet the Testament of that perception, being betrayed & given to the multitude, was profaned; verily as in it is written, Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they turn again & rend you! Therefore for their betrayal of their own truths were the Christians shunned by the Adepts, and persecuted the Adepts, for two thousand years.
[...] we learn that the Image of our Lord is the Sun [...] And upon Earth is His representative the Son, the Sacred Eidolon within the Ark of the covenant, the Rod wherein Prometheus brought down Fire from
Heaven. The Christians worshiped Him as Christ and feared Him as Satan, ill understanding His
Nature; for that He is sacred & secret beyond all that are or may be. And He is 666.
[...] our Brethren, having the true keys of all religions, namely that all cults typify either the Mysteries of Lingam & Yoni or of Sol, Luna, & Terra, can for themselves interpret all rites, create new faiths & new feasts, ruling the world in justice & righteousness under the Law of Thelema.
[...] In the Gospels of our brethren the Christians the Lord Jesus Christ is born of a woman called Mary and followed by a whore called Mary who becomes a vowed Virgin of the same name. These three also are one.[...]
aspire fervently toward the Word of our Lord THERION, considering the image of Jesus Christ, his crucifixion between two thieves (is not the lance that pierced Him in my charge?) ..."
(Source: (Book 100) "[...] The Book of the Unveiling of the Sangraal." )

"“Repeat after me: I who am nothing deny all that I was; I who am nothing affirm all that I shall be. I swear that as Nuit is about me, as Hadit is within me, so am I Ra-Hoor-Khuit! And blessing and worship to the Beast, the prophet of the Lovely Star!” (The officer withdrawing the brand 666 from the altar, marks the Candidate on brow, heart, & head.
[...] (The officer rises and takes his spear from beside the candidate. He touches with its point the brand 666 and says:) “As this brand is not to be effaced from thy body, so is this Initiation not to be effaced from thy soul!”"
(Source: (Book 120) Liber Cadaveris. Ritual CXX. Of Passing through the Tuat.)

"0. First let the Aspirant learn in his heart the Second Chapter of the Book of the Law. (Instruction of V.V.V.V.V.)"
(Source: (Book 555) Liber HAD sub figurâ DLV )

"... Section B. [...] Hear Me: - [...] “Thou Satan-Sun Hadith that goest without Will!”

[...] Section C. [...] I invoke Thee, the Terrible and Invisible God: Who dwellest in the Void Place of the Spirit: - [...] “Thou spiritual Sun! Satan, Thou Eye, Thou Lust! Cry aloud! Cry aloud! Whirl the Wheel, O my Father, O Satan, O Sun!” [...] “Thou, the Saviour!” [...] “Give me suck, Thou Phallus, Thou Sun!” [...] “Satan, thou Eye, thou Lust!” Satan, thou Eye, thou Lust! Satan, thou Eye, thou Lust! [...] “Thou self-caused, self-determined, exalted, Most High!”
[...] Section G. [...] Hear Me: - [...] “The Eye! Satan, my Lord! The Lust of the goat!”
[...] the Lord of the Sabbath of the Adepts, [...] is Satan, therefore also the Sun, whose number of Magick is 666, the seal of His servant the BEAST.
[...] This then is the true aim of the Adept in this whole operation, to assimilate himself to his Angel by continual conscious communion. For his Angel is an intelligible image of his own true Will, to do which is the whole of the law of his Being.
[...] I, The Beast 666, lift up my voice and swear that I myself have been brought hither by mine Angel. After that I had attained unto the Knowledge and Conversation of Him by virtue of mine ardour towards Him, and of this Ritual that I bestow upon men my fellows, and most of His great Love that He beareth to me, yea, verily, He led me to the Abyss; He bade me fling away all that I had and all that I was; and He forsook me in that Hour. But when I came beyond the Abyss, to be reborn within the womb of BABALON, then came he unto me abiding in my virgin heart, its Lord and Lover! Also He made me a Magus, speaking through His Law, the Word of the new Aeon, the Aeon of the Crowned and Conquering Child. Thus he fulfilled my will to bring full freedom to the race of Men."
(Source: (Book 800) Liber Samekh Theurgia Goetia Summa (Congressus Cum Daemone) sub figurâ DCCC )

"I A O the supreme One of the Gnostics, the true God, is the Lord of this work. Let us therefore invoke Him by that name which the Companions of the royal Arch blaspheme to aid us in the essay to declare the means which He has bestowed upon us!"
(Source: (Book 811) Liber DCCXI Energized Enthusiasm A Note on Theurgy )

"[...] FIRST METHOD [...] 9. [...] use the formula and God-form of Harpocrates. [...] 11. And let him know that such rituals include the pronunciation of the appropriate names of God backwards, and also a curse against the Sephira in respect of all that which it is, for that which distinguishes and separates it from Kether. [...]"
(Source: (Book 831) Liber Iod sub figurâ DCCCXXI )

 


hermitas liked
ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3718
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is if ...

You start an "if/then" construction here, but never get to the "then" part.


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3718
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

My point is if ...

You start an "if/then" construction here, but never get to the "then" part.


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1863
 

@wellreadwellbred
“ Aleister Crowley's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff" contains much that a Christian individual trying to use it to attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", will find problematic “

No need to brood. If you want an attainment of waking up each day and going out to love everybody; go do it.
If you want to follow the adolescent Yeshu ben Pantera the result of a debilitated sex potent goddess lying virgin mother; that declared himself messiah and got himself crucified; go join the cult of repression, misery, and enslavement, that turned the sexual potency impulse of the Goddess over to the Jesus brand franchise.

You’re better off without Crowley; unless you want to be the The Xtian led to the Abyss and bade to fling away all that.
Wake up and be freed into the apocalypse.


hermitas liked
ReplyQuote
Page 10 / 16
Share: