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David Dom Lemieux
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Jesus was killed and then descended into Hell before he would go on to ascend into Heaven..

 

Reminds me of

40.  

My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.

 

from Liber Tzaddi.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Crowley notes the Oath of the Abyss as, “I swear to interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul,” which of course is a first-class ticket to madness (and self-delusion) unless

Why is this "ticket" to be regarded as of course?  How does this follow on/ on what basis do you assume this rather melodramatic drivel assertion is conjectured? (Please keep quotes to a minimum in your reply.)

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Can taking what AC called "the Oath of the Abyss", assist the Oath taker in attaining unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God"?

If you're asking me (and even if you're not) I would say yes: all other factors being equal, in the sense of travel being in an "onwards and upwards" direction from Chesed to Binah and from there to all points Beyond (in a manner of speaking).  And providing that the Oath is taken at the right time, "of course".

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Crowley notes the Oath of the Abyss as, “I swear to interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul,”

Mr Campbell makes the usual and customary error of confusing the Oath of the Abyss with the Oath of a Magister. How can he be trusted in his interpretations and mixed-up opinions if he can't get the basic Oaths straight?

You mean, 'The Oath of a Babe of the Abyss' here?

Straight-talkingly but nonetheless non-nitpickingly yours,

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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JBB: "Why is this "ticket" to be regarded as of course?  How does this follow on/ on what basis do you assume this rather melodramatic drivel assertion is conjectured? (Please keep quotes to a minimum in your reply.)"

I was also wondering about that, as my experience of interpreting every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul, is to be in constant bliss. 

 

Arguing with Barabra Green earlier on page 5 in this thread, you JJB wrote:

"It seems you don't have to be "good" to have "the good (after)life", but just believe in the Bible stories as the Truth.  So therefore child murderers and simple non-believers would all suffer the same fate, Karma effectively in the wastepaper basket? What if that was all the miserable sinners wanted (having a death-wish, to die) anyway? They would get exactly what they wanted... would that be right? Would that be just?"

Do you think swearing the oath "There is no grace: there is no guilt: This is the Law: DO WHAT THOU WILT!”, puts "Karma effectively in the wastepaper basket?", also for "child murderers" swearing this oath, and "... would that be right? Would that be just?":

"The Magician, his breast bare, stands before an altar on which are his Burin, Bell, Thurible, and two of the Cakes of Light. [...] He eats the second Cake. This Bread I eat. This Oath I swear As I enflame myself with prayer: “There is no grace: there is no guilt: This is the Law: DO WHAT THOU WILT!”"
(Source: (Book 44) "Liber XLIV The Mass of the Phœnix [...] A∴A∴ Publication in Class D." )

 

Me: "Aleister Crowley's "Class D, How-to-do-it stuff" contains much that a Christian individual trying to use it to attain unto the absolute, to Kether, or "Union with God", will find problematic "

Tiger [A Christian individual is]: "... better off without Crowley; unless [it] want[-s] to be the The Xtian led to the Abyss and bade to fling away all that. Wake up and be freed into the apocalypse."

On reddit there are those arguing in support of being both a Christian and a Thelemite at the same time.  

As there are all sorts of positions and debates within Christianity, with respect to both the nature and the time of the apocalypse, it might be the will of some Christian individual considering itself already freed from The Law, the Devil, Sin and Death, to use its freedom to also be "... freed into the apocalypse." mentioned by Tiger.

The expression the Law of Liberty, has been used both by the Christian hymnodist William Hammond; "No other Law do I now see, Besides the Law of Liberty." (source: Page 21, in Robert Rix's book William Blake and the Cultures of Radical Christianity), and by AC with respect to his Thelema: (Book 837) The Law of Liberty (A Tract of ΤΟ ΜΕΓΑ ΘΗΡΙΟΝ 666 (A∴A∴ Publication in Class E.)).


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wellreadwellbred
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John Nelson Darby, founder of the Christian church which influenced AC's younger years, also used the expression the law of liberty. (Source: "James By John Nelson Darby" - - - http://plymouthbrethren.org/article/5957  )


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

I was also wondering about that, as my experience of interpreting every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul, is to be in constant bliss. 

This is most interesting.  Please could you supply as many details as possible as to how your experience in this has had this most felicitous result of 'constant bliss' for you, as I am sure most AC Society members would find this information most valuable and welcome in their own Ways.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Do you think swearing the oath "There is no grace: there is no guilt: This is the Law: DO WHAT THOU WILT!”, puts "Karma effectively in the wastepaper basket?"

No; you [=anyone] can swear it quite irrespective of this outcome. Karma is by definition what happens to you as a result of your actions (the cause-and-effect of what you have done), and it makes not a jot of difference what you personally feel about it, swear or think.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

also for "child murderers" swearing this oath, and "... would that be right? Would that be just?":

This goes for them too... regardless, it will happen to whomsoever as an external, outside force.  (You can believe this as well, Well, if you also believe karma's gonna come'n'getcha - as opposed to everything in the universe being ruled by - whisper it quietly! - blind chance...)

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

On reddit there are those arguing in support of being both a Christian and a Thelemite at the same time.  

In that case one wonders what they think the "New Aeon" is meant to be all about!?

N Joy


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ignant666
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I am sure most AC Society members would find SAID information most valuable and welcome in their own Ways.

Put that in an idiom wrwb will more readily interpret.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

Put that in an idiom

Who is it you are accusing of idiocy?

 


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wellreadwellbred
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me: "I was also wondering about that, as my experience of interpreting every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul, is to be in constant bliss."

JJB: "This is most interesting.  Please could you supply as many details as possible as to how your experience in this has had this most felicitous result of 'constant bliss' for you, as I am sure most AC Society members would find this information most valuable and welcome in their own Ways."

This is irrelevant to the subject matter of this thread, and I can not supply any details as to how my experience has resulted in 'constant bliss' (maybe it is due to - whisper it quietly! - blind chance). I can only state that interpreting is a misleading word in this context, as the experiencing of every phenomenon as a particular dealing of 'the source point of all manifestation', with my 'being' ("For I am perfect, being Not; ..." (BOTL II:15.)), is effortless, direct and immediate. Without the forms of manifestation as an obscuration, without anything being interpreted in terms of any other thing, and without reasoning on my part.

Sorry, JBB, that I can not be of more help with respect to how my experince has resulted in 'constant bliss', just lucky I guess? (Somebody teased me once by stating that a brain scan of my brain, will reveal the reason for my significant lack of mood swings. I think part of the reason is my reading of AC's writings at statements like "I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. ..." (BOTL II:26.), and "A feast every day in your hearts in the joy of my rapture!" (BOTL II:42.).)

 

And now, back to the subject matter of this thread: Christianity and Thelema[:]

A compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema, is that Jesus Christ and his teachings, within Christianity is presented as foretold within Scriptures sacred to the Jews (a claim not accepted by most religious Jews). And this is akin to how Aleister Crowley identifying himself as the Beast 666, presents himself and his Thelema as foretold within Scriptures sacred to the Christians (a claim not accepted by most Christians).


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

This is irrelevant to the subject matter of this thread, and I can not supply any details ...

But you introduced the alternative matter of your attainment. You have made a claim that is so outrageous that we all want to examine the details ... in case you are The Bodhisattva or one of his trusted agents.

If true (that you are in constant bliss), we might even pay you for instruction. Direct instruction, not quotes, mind you.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

I can only state that interpreting is a misleading word in this context

I agree. The "I will interpret" clause is only a reminder to the vehicle, which is naughty at times, to stay in the groove. To "interpret" is to engage the mind into order analyze a message from God, to see how it pertains to one's soul. This is shaky ground. The Magister, in his room at The Binah hotel and Bar, does not need this reminder; he (she) is already in the groove and understands things without reminders.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

... and without reasoning on my part.

Why, yes, I see you have grasped the point.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

... and I can not supply any details ...

But you jut did (supply details), so where does that leave us all? Derailed?

 

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

A compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema, is that ...

Right. We already covered that. They were both "sent." I guess you're adding "foretold" to being "sent," so nobody could say "We didn't expect you. Who are you?"

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Notice the appeal to community-spirit in Christ's prayer as oppose to I , me and my;

 

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass
against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

 

Some would criticise this for being "herd mind" or "hive mind". 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

Some would criticise this for being "herd mind" or "hive mind". 

Jesus referred to his followers as “sheep.” 

Just saying.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

Some would criticise this for being "herd mind" or "hive mind". 

Jesus referred to his followers as “sheep.” 

Just saying.

So do the critics but obviously in a negative way those who think Nietzsche was some sort of god e.g. Satanic edge-Lord teens, Hitler, Mussolini, Black Metal self-harmers etc. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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Add Ian Brady and loon-tune Mishima to that list.  Why do Nazis gravitate towards Satanism? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

Some would criticise this for being "herd mind" or "hive mind". 

Jesus referred to his followers as “sheep.” 

Just saying.

So do the critics but obviously in a negative way those who think Nietzsche was some sort of god e.g. Satanic edge-Lord teens, Hitler, Mussolini, Black Metal self-harmers etc. 

Yeah, all the cool people. [sarcasm]

Do you think Jesus' view of sheep was only positive? I wonder.

I've heard a preacher say basically, "Yeah, sheep can be stupid, so it's good that we have the Good Shepherd." 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas

Yeah, all the cool people. [sarcasm]

Do you think Jesus' view of sheep was only positive? I wonder.

I've heard a preacher say basically, "Yeah, sheep can be stupid, so it's good that we have the Good Shepherd." 

A great question.   It's bullshit of course, if one has to become a sheep to attain (mass) emotional intelligence increase then bring it on.   I could say the exact same about people who do Crowley's RESH ritual or any of his other rituals.   Sheep, right?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas

Yeah, all the cool people. [sarcasm]

Do you think Jesus' view of sheep was only positive? I wonder.

I've heard a preacher say basically, "Yeah, sheep can be stupid, so it's good that we have the Good Shepherd." 

A great question.   It's bullshit of course, if one has to become a sheep to attain (mass) emotional intelligence increase then bring it on.   I could say the exact same about people who do Crowley's RESH ritual or any of his other rituals.   Sheep, right?  

Maybe “sheep” is a developmental stage. Some make it past, some don’t.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

Maybe “sheep” is a developmental stage.

Yes it is. We all passed through the Osirian sheep stage when we attended compulsory education. Even there, some were rebelling already. Other waited to get graded and graduated before entering the rebellious phase. Those who live through conending forces and find solace may be said to have attained to Maat. Says so in the Hot Zone scripture.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @hermitas

Maybe “sheep” is a developmental stage.

Yes it is. We all passed through the Osirian sheep stage when we attended compulsory education. Even there, some were rebelling already. Other waited to get graded and graduated before entering the rebellious phase. Those who live through conending forces and find solace may be said to have attained to Maat. Says so in the Hot Zone scripture.

So the Aeon of Horus was a tantrum/teenage tantrum?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

So the Aeon of Horus was a tantrum/teenage tantrum?  

Individuation. In the style of Jung.


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "But you jut did (supply details), so where does that leave us all? Derailed?"

My point is that I can not supply details for how my experience in "interpreting every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my Soul", resulted in constant bliss for me. That is, I do not have details for how I went about getting this result, that I can kindly share with others, as it is more like I just "... chance[-d] to abide in this bliss ..." (BOTL, III:39).

And now, back to the subject matter of this thread: Christianity and Thelema


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wellreadwellbred
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(Bold, added by me to quoted text:)

 

"EXPLANATIONS OF THE ATTRIBUTIONS IN THE MORE IMPORTANT COLUMNS OF TABLES I-VI, COLUMN V: GOD NAMES IN ASSIAH: ... "3. JEHOVAH ELOHIM gives the full name of the God, as if the Supernals were collected in Binah. [...] 7-8. JEHOVAH TZABAOTH and ELOHIM TZABAOTH give respectively the two principal names of the Demiurge expressed in multiplicity and positive action. (Hosts.) (page 65) [...]."

(Source: Page 65 in 777 REVISED [...] A Reprint Of 777 (A∴A∴ publication in Class B), With Much Additional Matter By The Late Aleister Crowley, Celephais Press Ulthar - Sarkomand - Inquanok, Leeds 2004)

 

"Are we to believe, asks the sceptic, that a number of learned men deliberately sat down and chose words for the sake of their numerical value? Language is a living thing, with many sources and diverse; can it be moulded in any such arbitrary fashion? [...]

[A] line of argument is the historical. We do not here refer to the alleged forgery of the Qabalah by Rabbi Moses ben Leon — was it not? — but to the general position of the ethnologist that the Jews were an entirely barbarous race, incapable of any spiritual pursuit. That they were polytheists is clear from the very first verse of Genesis; that Adonai Melekh is identical with “Moloch” is known to every Hebraist. The “Old Testament” is mainly the history of the struggle of the phallic Jehovah against the rest of the Elohim, and that his sacrifices were of blood, and human blood at that, is indisputable.

Human sacrifices are to-day still practised by the Jews of Eastern Europe, as is set forth at length by the late Sir Richard Burton in the MS. which the wealthy Jews of England have compassed heaven and earth to suppress, and evidenced by the ever-recurring Pogroms against which so senseless an outcry is made by those who live among those degenerate Jews who are at least not cannibals.[...])

Is it to such people, indeed, that we are to look for the highest and subtlest spiritual knowledge?

To this criticism there are but two answers. The first, that an esoteric tradition of great purity may co-exist with the most crass exoteric practice. [...]

The second, that after all is said, I find it work very well. I do not care whether Sq.Rt. -1 is an impossible, an unimaginable thing, or whether de Moivre really invented it, and if so, whether de Moivre was an immortal man, and wore whiskers. It helps me to make certain calculations; and so long as that is so, it is useful, and I stick to it. ..."

(Source: https://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib500 - - - Sepher Sephiroth sub figurâ D (A∴ A∴ Publication in Class B Imprimatur: N. Fra. A∴ A∴))

 

"... the Hebrew god presided over "the council of El": "God has taken his place in the divine council {עדה אל  aydaw El = the council of El}; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment." (Psalm 82:1 NRSV) The phrase "in the midst of the gods he holds judgment" indicates that the Hebrew god was surrounded by secondary gods. 

[...] The Hebrew God and his secondary gods, had the same image: "And God said {to his secondary gods}, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Genesis 1:26 KJV) [...]

In the beginning Adam did not know the difference between good and evil. But God and his secondary gods knew. The serpent told Eve, "... in the day you eat thereof {the fruit of the tree of knowledge}, ... you will be as gods {Heb. elohim}, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5 KJV)

The phrase, "you will be as gods" indicates the existence of other gods, beside God. Had the writer of Genesis believed that there was only one god, he would have written "you will be as God."

When Genesis was written the Hebrews believed there were other gods beside God. Who were those gods the serpent was referring to? The gods to whom God said, "Let us make man in our image." After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, God said, "Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil." (Genesis 3:22 KJV)"

 
 
"... In the first chapter of Genesis we receive our first glimpse of the nature of Elohim’s gender.
 
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27, KJV)
 
Notice that in this verse it states that Elohim made humans in his image, but then it defines this image as male and female. From this we can conclude that the attributes of God are both masculine and feminine. We can then surmise that he placed his masculine attributes within the man and his feminine attributes within the woman and when a man and woman come together and become one[...], they together become the image of Elohim.
 
[...] The idea of a single male deity is unique to our modern era. In all the ancient cultures, the Elohim was a male and female. In Egypt it was Osiris (masculine) and Isis (feminine). In Canaan it was El and Elat (also known as Asherah). To the Greeks it was Zeus and Hera. To the Romans it was Jupiter and Juno. To the Germans it was Odin and Frigg. I am not necessarily trying to make the claim that the Elohim of the bible are a god and goddess, just that the attributes of Elohim are both masculine and feminine."
 
 

Aleister Crowleys claim That he “Old Testament” is mainly the history of the struggle of Jehovah against the rest of the Elohim, is more comparable with some theological views within Christianity(*), which teaches that there is only one true Elohim (God).

(*) https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=lBr9X_zCF86ykwXB1KyoAg&q=%22there+is+only+one+true+Elohim%22&oq=%22there+is+only+one+true+Elohim%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA1ALWO4OYIcVaABwAHgAgAGbAYgB7wGSAQMxLjGYAQCgAQGgAQKqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj83Mr2vJXuAhVO2aQKHUEqCyUQ4dUDCAY&uact=5

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Are we to believe, asks the sceptic, that a number of learned men deliberately sat down and chose words for the sake of their numerical value?

Well, yes, because I have done so. Probably a bunch of other folks around here have done the same. Experimentally, of course.

Now, when we do such a ridiculous thing, sometimes there is synchronization and we say, "Aha!" or "Eureka!" But many times, nay, most of the times, There is no "Aha" moment. It is like going to the casino to get rich.

Say, I just noticed the long, really long, post is full of quoted quotes. I'll just excuse myself now and go on to the resting room.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

So the Aeon of Horus was a tantrum/teenage tantrum?  

Individuation. In the style of Jung.

That's what delusional teenagers tell themselves, "I'm breaking free and fuck you mum and dad" (if they're the lucky few who actually have a real mum and dad that is).

Since 1904 we've had two major tantrums, one in 1914-1917 and the other in the 30s and 40s under the flag of the teenage Pagan witchcraft antichrist Swastika.  Maybe it's time for The Child to put down the strange drugs and grow the fuck up?  

The obeah and the wanga is just for the kids?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

That's what delusional teenagers tell themselves, "I'm breaking free and fuck you mum and dad" (if they're the lucky few who actually have a real mum and dad that is).

Well, you’re on a tear. 

Individuation isn’t just a teenage thing though. Few people do the work of that.


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Tiger
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Weak or well funded methodologies and flawed evidence have been used to obtain,construct and found a coherent independent document and a biblical narrative that expunged the worship of the sex positive goddess Asherah, lilītu, Lilith, and the like.
The Kingdom of Israel existed roughly from 930 BCE until 720 BCE, when it was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian Empire.
From Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead various tribes with polytheistic practices underwent radical changes with their notions of divinities.
The re-interpretation of the gods of the earliest period of Israelite identity finally emerged in the 7th to 6th century BCE in the Kingdom of Judah as the national god of monolatrism. And further in terms of monotheism the struggle of Jehovah against the rest of the Elohim in an adolescent tantrum; was won by the emergence of Rabbinical Judaism in the 2nd century CE.
Perhaps borrowed from AEchnaton’s Atenism.

The word elohim or 'elohiym (ʼĕlôhîym) is a grammatically plural noun for "gods" or "deities"
The word is the plural form of the word eloah and related to el. Cognate with the word 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used as the pantheon for Canaanite gods.
Elohim is the name of God used in the Elohist (Mt Horeb instead of Sinai)
Yahweh is the name of God used in the Jahwist ( Mt Sinai instead of Horeb)


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas

Well, you’re on a tear. 

Individuation isn’t just a teenage thing though. Few people do the work of that.

It's just Jungian speak, recycled concepts.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas

Well, you’re on a tear. 

Individuation isn’t just a teenage thing though. Few people do the work of that.

It's just Jungian speak, recycled concepts.

You're right. "Teenage temper tantrum" is a much more comprehensive, unbiased, and scholarly assessment. 

Meanwhile, the grownups are doing the hard work of learning to be most consciously and authentically themselves despite the demands of family and society. 


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hermitas
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Posted by: @tiger

Weak or well funded methodologies and flawed evidence have been used to obtain,construct and found a coherent independent document and a biblical narrative that expunged the worship of the sex positive goddess Asherah, lilītu, Lilith, and the like.

I think they tripped way too hard on the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" bit.

But I remember when the light when on that the people worshipping in their "groves" in the Hebrew Scriptures were probably doing exactly what I was doing and that the main difference between the Hebrews/Christians and the pagans was that the Hebrews/Christians did absolutely everything to remove the feminine from the godhead. 

Oh! And then the Catholics put the feminine back, but weak and virginal..!

I know this isn't knew to anyone here, but it was a huge revelation to me. 

"Sex is bad, mkay? And a God who has sex is bad, mkay?" 


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hermitas
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Ugh.. I am cursed with typos. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @hermitas

Well, you’re on a tear. 

Individuation isn’t just a teenage thing though. Few people do the work of that.

It's just Jungian speak, recycled concepts.

You're right. "Teenage temper tantrum" is a much more comprehensive, unbiased, and scholarly assessment. 

Meanwhile, the grownups are doing the hard work of learning to be most consciously and authentically themselves despite the demands of family and society. 

The only people in history who achieved "individuation" were 20th century Jungians?  

Christ and probably countless others taught about the projecting "shadow" 2000 years ago.  Judge not etc.  Jung was a Nazi-enabler who rolled with crap such as Judaism is not for Europeans.  Do I believe the stories that he groomed and fucked disturbed young female patients?  I don't know.  His main big idea is Synchronicity which is just another word for 'omen". 

This idea that everyone and everything in your dreams is an aspect of you, yeah I'm impressed with that at least but I'm sure it's not a new idea.  "Archetypes" are gods? So what? There isn't just an individual unnscious there's a collective unconscious as well.....right.... astounding.  Commie-wary Americans in the 50s saw UFOs whereas feudal age peasants saw Angels?  Amazing insight. ...not really.

Didn't he write an essay about the role of psychiatrist as pastor?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

The only people in history who achieved "individuation" were 20th century Jungians?  

Christ and probably countless others taught about the projecting "shadow" 2000 years ago.  Judge not etc.  Jung was a Nazi-enabler who rolled with crap such as Judaism is not for Europeans.  Do I believe the stories that he groomed and fucked disturbed young female patients?  I don't know.  His main big idea is Synchronicity which is just another word for 'omen". 

This idea that everyone and everything in your dreams is an aspect of you, yeah I'm impressed with that at least but I'm sure it's not a new idea.  "Archetypes" are gods? So what? There isn't just an individual unnscious there's a collective unconscious as well.....right.... astounding.  Commie-wary Americans in the 50s saw UFOs whereas feudal age peasants saw Angels?  Amazing insight. ...not really.

Didn't he write an essay about the role of psychiatrist as pastor?

Psh... Putting words in my mouth, ad hominen, juvenile iconoclasm.

Yawn.

You're in time-out, grumpy-pants. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

That's what delusional teenagers tell themselves, "I'm breaking free and fuck you mum and dad" (if they're the lucky few who actually have a real mum and dad that is).

Thet tell that to themselves because that's exactly what they are doing. And then some actually do it. Many get stuck in the Osiris-Jesus authority of the family, and by extension, even the Establishment. They are the sheep.

Only a "few" have "real" parents? It is my experience, in meeting people for the better part of a century that "Almost everybody" has a real set of parents. Test-tube babies an clones do not count of course. Many have divorced parents, but they are "real." 

Posted by: @dom

Maybe it's time for The Child to put down the strange drugs and grow the fuck up? 

Yes. I have promoted this concept, but with less gutter lingo.

Posted by: @hermitas

Individuation isn’t just a teenage thing though. Few people do the work of that.

This is correct. Individuation stats early, gets a full expression in adolescence, and continues throughout the rest of one's life ... unless (as you say) they do the work and arrive at a stable connection between the conscious and the unconscious. Not a lot of folks (here) bother to cite Jung because they've not studied him, or they can't see that Jesus, AC, and the other secret chiefs, were all drifting in the same direction ... along with Jung (who doesn't get to be a secret chief because he was a form of competition for AC).

Posted by: @tiger

Israel existed roughly from 930 BCE until 720 BCE,

That's only ~a couple hundred annums (anni? anniae? ... not very long.

Posted by: @tiger

Yahweh is the name of God used in the Jahwist ( Mt Sinai

There is, and always has been, nothing but trouble coming out of the demon-infested Sinai region.

Posted by: @hermitas

Christians did absolutely everything to remove the feminine from the godhead.

Yep. Very patriarchal of them.

Posted by: @hermitas

Ugh.. I am cursed with typos. 

This is merely a side-effect of our mental imbalance. If we would only re-read, or at least "Preview" our posts before hitting "ADD REPLY," this would straighten out the twists in the grammar. I actually do this ... sometimes. I am a par-time sinner.

Posted by: @dom

The only people in history who achieved "individuation" were 20th century Jungians?  

Of course not. The Tibetans, the Hindus, the Buddhists, and the North American Indios had their own ride and terminology.

Posted by: @dom

Synchronicity which is just another word for 'omen".

Every culture has a different word for their universal concepts. It is our job to find what they have in common. We are supposed to discard the differences. Says so in the basic, fundamental Student Reading List instructions.

Posted by: @hermitas

You're in time-out, grumpy-pants. 

He is exercizing his divinity, throwin thunderbolts at anything that moves, all in the grand spirit of great condescension. It's a form of teenage terrorism.


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David Dom Lemieux
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What about the obeah and the wanga? 

Is it really needed or do we grow out of it in the Aeon of Maat?   I disagree with the way the materialists scorn and scoff at it.   Most folk who get into it are rebellious teens who are done with their culture's stuffy 'Old Aeon' faiths that 'take away their individuality/individuation'...apparently.  There are promises made to budding occultists (by various blurbs) about how they can become a powerful living god-magician and "release their full potential" etc, that priests dole out spirituality for the herd but you the special ESP Occultist rebel  have to reach out and get it for yourself.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Is it really needed or do we grow out of it in the Aeon of Maat? 

Yes, now you're looking in the right direction.

Posted by: @dom

reach out and get it for yourself.

I second that notion.


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pox93
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I like to read and study a zine I linked to in another thread, because it has a lot of interesting topics and articles. One of the issues had a long article about the origins of Christianity, Jesus, and YHVH [Yahweh/Jehovah]. The article in question attacked the topic from different angles of approach, where it used history, linguistics, and genetics. I personally thought the article was interesting. The blurp about that issue says this:

"The provenance of Christianity. The origins of Judaism. The origins of the God of Israel. The etymology of the Hebrew word “Zion.” The location of the Garden of Eden. The Cult of Dionysus. What Mount Zion has to do with Dionysus. Trance, shamanic spirit journeying, and spirit possession in ancient Judaism and early Christianity. The origins of the Ark of the Covenant. The origins of the Urim & Thummim. What is the House of David. What is the Star of David. Who was King Solomon. The location of King Solomon’s Temple. Brief stuff on the Templars and Freemasonry. Who was Jesus. Using the Drecc Deck [psychic cards] to see if Jesus was a real person. Mount Meru at the North Pole. The etymology of the Hebrew word “Satan.” The origins of the Biblical Satan and Hell. Vedic Aryan y-DNA analysis and distribution in the Levant and Near East. The connection between ancient Hebrew and Vedic Aryan Sanskrit. What Aristotle and Josephus Flavius had to say about Jews and India. How the ancient Egyptian Pyramids, the Vedic God Agni, Angkor Wat, the island of Java, the God of Israel, animal sacrificial burnt offerings, Phallic Worship, Shiva, and the Cult of Dionysus are connected." 

If anybody is interested in that topic, the topic in that issue can begins: here.

In the recent issue, which I'm reading now, they had a long article about the etymology of the biblical Cain and what secrets the etymology reveals. I thought that was fascinating actually. That article can be found: here


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Sorry, JBB, that I can not be of more help with respect to how my experince has resulted in 'constant bliss',

Doesn't it seem a bit monotonous if you're in a constant state of anything, though?  That special shine would surely rub off it after a while (cf.  those people - like Roy Wood - who "wish it could be Xmas every day"). 

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Somebody teased me once by stating that a brain scan of my brain, will reveal the reason for my significant lack of mood swings.

Did they suggest it could be autism, perhaps?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

just lucky I guess? .... I think part of the reason is my reading of AC's writings at statements like "I am the secret Serpent coiled about to spring: in my coiling there is joy. ..." (BOTL II:26.), and "A feast every day in your hearts in the joy of my rapture!" (BOTL II:42.).)

Possibly... it would all depend on your reading as you say - mebbe if you were holographically trying to get near to the blissful/joyful level of what Hadit would be experiencing all of the time in terms of 'his' union with Nuit.  But even then, are you saying there wouldn't be any breaks at all in the 'consciousness of the continuity', so far as you're concerned?

Posted by: @dom

Notice the appeal to community-spirit in Christ's prayer as oppose to I , me and my;

Our ...Give us  .. forgive us ... we ... us ... us ...us

Some would criticise this for being "herd mind" or "hive mind". 

Cf. with "My number is 11, as all their numbers who are of us" - (AL I:60), "... the highest are of us... who sorroweth is not of us" (AL II:19), (Etc...).

Posted by: @dom

 I could say the exact same about people who do Crowley's RESH ritual or any of his other rituals.   Sheep, right?  

Baaa!- Naah!

N Joy


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hermitas
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Posted by: @shiva

Not a lot of folks (here) bother to cite Jung because they've not studied him, or they can't see that Jesus, AC, and the other secret chiefs, were all drifting in the same direction ... along with Jung (who doesn't get to be a secret chief because he was a form of competition for AC).

Really..? Hmh.. Interesting. 

Well, I'm no Jungian scholar, but I've read a few of his denser works as well as the common ones. I appreciate his work quite a lot. 

It's a shame about the Secret Chief snub though. Politics. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

It's a shame about the Secret Chief snub though. Politics. 

The original secret chiefs were German. (there were probably others before them, but I'm citing fairlt recent history). One of them, a woman (said by some to be HPB), authorized the founding of the G.'.D.'.. Then, as is usual in these matters, she died. The others (presumably but not proven) were men. They didn't like the G.'.D.'. being founded, but said they (the GDers) already had enough data to contact the secret chiefs by themselves.

So now we see a metaphysical leap to really secret, secret chiefs. Crowley, of course, buys into this tale and raises himself to secret chiefdom, but then talks about why the secret chiefs chose him as their mouthpiece.

I will grant that there is an archetypal formation of seven, so there's some archetypal seven do-dad floating around. The real source, I surmise, is found in the fact that the ancients could only see seven six moving, plus the Sun, and we get the "gods" wandering ("planet" means "wanderer") around the system.

Jung was quite clear. He said his psych work was the same as The Path. He craked the codes through his study of alchemy. So, you see, he wasn't in the seven secret chief club, and he probably didn't care about the arcane societies.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Jung was quite clear. He said his psych work was 

 

Apart from his dream interpretation what was his 'psych work'?  Is 'Jungian therapy' even effective? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Is 'Jungian therapy' even effective? 

I have no idea because he is dead. And so are most, or all, of his patients. I guess you could look up "patient reviews," if there are any.  His "type" of work is now done by others who fly under his name. But you know how that goes. Everybody is different. Just like in every other field, it's the individual practitioner, not necessarily the system, who makes the difference.

His literary works helped me quite a bit to put Crowley into a proper perspective. That alone is worth 3 pounds of lead turned into gold.


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @shiva

 

Jung was quite clear. He said his psych work was 

 

Apart from his dream interpretation what was his 'psych work'?  Is 'Jungian therapy' even effective? 

Effective? What it looks like to me? If your experiment is made up of random people assigned a random treatment, not so impressive. If you measure people who chose Jungian therapy, it looks pretty effective. 

His “psych work” was to make contact and explore his own psyche. He devoted about four years of his life to hermiting himself away and experimenting with his own psyche.

He used a process he called “active imagination,” which is nothing more than relaxing into a state where he was just awake enough for the characters in his imagination to take on a life of their own - being directed by the unconscious mind.

He said the ideas from this period shaped the rest of his work on the psyche. He later memorialized this period by creating Liber Novus (aka the Red Book, which could not be published while he was living). In it he describes the characters he met and his interaction with them, and then he’ll think through the analysis. 

I’m afraid I’ve just made that sound very boring, but it’s more sort of living and less academic than his scholarly works. Over the course of it, he goes through the process of evolving his ideas about the Devil, Christ, God, etc. He meets a pair of characters, an old wise man and harlot. He meets a character named Philemon who is an old man with kingfisher wings - basically an inner guru figure. 

It’s just fascinating to see this man go through this with such depth of understanding. 

Anyway, that was his basic technique.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

I’m afraid I’ve just made that sound very boring

Not at all. A fine summation.

Did he ever meet a (ssh) secret chief?


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hermitas
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @hermitas

I’m afraid I’ve just made that sound very boring

Not at all. A fine summation.

Did he ever meet a (ssh) secret chief?

Uncertain how that’s defined. 

He did have a near-death experience where someone who had passed before him told him that he had more work to do.

The strange thing is that Jung writes that it was obvious to him that the deceased was actually a “high priest of Kos” (which meaning he never explains).

Jung recovers from his illness, but he gets depressed. It takes him a while to be okay with being trapped back in the “matter box” (i believe that’s basically the expression he used).


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

The only people in history who achieved "individuation" were 20th century Jungians?  

Christ and probably countless others taught about the projecting "shadow" 2000 years ago.  Judge not etc.  Jung was a Nazi-enabler who rolled with crap such as Judaism is not for Europeans.  Do I believe the stories that he groomed and fucked disturbed young female patients?  I don't know.  His main big idea is Synchronicity which is just another word for 'omen". 

This idea that everyone and everything in your dreams is an aspect of you, yeah I'm impressed with that at least but I'm sure it's not a new idea.  "Archetypes" are gods? So what? There isn't just an individual unnscious there's a collective unconscious as well.....right.... astounding.  Commie-wary Americans in the 50s saw UFOs whereas feudal age peasants saw Angels?  Amazing insight. ...not really.

Didn't he write an essay about the role of psychiatrist as pastor?

Not having much experience with you, I may have misread some of this. I retract the "juvenile." My apologies. 

I'm not gonna answer all of this line-by-line though. I'm not trying to win converts, and this does kind of read like a rant. 

My introduction to Jung came in seminary. We were being exposed to "kataphatic prayer" - specifically in this case, prayer using images. We calmed ourselves with breathing and what I now understand to be a Christian mantra. Then we were supposed to visualize taking the elevator down into our hearts, opening up into a sanctuary, and speaking with Jesus. 

My problem was that I met all these characters along the way who were not part of the visualization exercise. Well, I was a Christian uneducated in these things. I had no idea! Were these spirits? Demons? What? I asked my Spiritual Formations Director about it, and all she said was, "That's not supposed to happen." But she mentioned Jung. I did some research and took to him instantly. 

He's been very influential in my understanding of occultism.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @hermitas
  

Not having much experience with you, I may have misread some of this. I retract the "juvenile." My apologies. 

I'm not gonna answer all of this line-by-line though. I'm not trying to win converts, and this does kind of read like a rant. 

My introduction to Jung came in seminary. We were being exposed to "kataphatic prayer" - specifically in this case, prayer using images. We calmed ourselves with breathing and 

 

Dude whatever gets you closer to the source.

It was a bit of a rant against Jung, he got his own back though I awoke last night after an emotive dream ie my unconscious was showing me my limitations via symbolic imagery.  I apologise but there may be some good points in that rant.  

Yes Jung applied science to the irrational, magical and mythological, that's laudable.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

I apologise but there may be some good points in that rant.  

Yes Jung applied science to the irrational, magical and mythological, that's laudable.

Well, I do agree that he didn't discover anything but merely tried to "Science-ify" spiritual phenomena and practices. Yes, synchronicity is just a fancy word (and theory) for omens, etc. 

While both Crowley and Jung were working diligently to make spiritual practices and phenomena acceptable to Science, I've often been ranting on the other side... "But SPIRIT...!"  

I've kind of gotten beyond the issue, realizing where most people are reasonably coming from with healthy skepticism in the face of so much rubbish out there. But, spirit is home turf for me. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

"That's not supposed to happen."

From her point of view, these characters were "breaks" in your dharana, but she didn't even know what a "break" was. But she mentioned Jung, so (despite her position and reaction) she became a cosmic messenger.

Long before I got my head on straight, I was major/minoring in psychology. I took every psych course they had to offer. The pinnacle of my early career in college was (1) To synthesize mescaline in the Organic Chemistry Laboratory course. This was legal at that time. My efforts were carried out with the full knowledge and support of the Chemistry Faculty, who were all rather interesting leftovers from The Manhattan Project.

(2) Simultaneously, I prepared a paper (the so-called final project upon which one's grade rested). The course was Physiological Psychology. Of course, being on a roll and not a rant, I submitted a paper of the effects of mescaline on human consciousness.

With all that non-essential data as a foundation, my point is ... I never read or heard the name Jung mentioned in any course or printed in any text. In retrospect, I find that very strange.

Later, I took a series of extracurricular courses from Stephan Hoeller (PhD Psych), who taught us all the Freud-Jung interactions and all the "occult" powers demonstrated by Jung (which almost drove Freud mad). Hoeller went on to found some Gnostic Secret Society in Los Angeles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_A._Hoeller

I guess in 1960 West-Coat America, he (Jung) was too far out to be included in the official litany.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

 

Crowley wrote that Thelema was to be a restoration of Taoism. Taoism emerged within the Aeon if Isis. If the Aeon of Osiris was abrogate, how much more that of the Mother! But Crowley, outside of his own religious dogma, perceives things from a higher level. It's my thought that the Aeon of Ma'at witnesses the restoration of Christianity. It's also my thought that Aeons are Components of Cosmic Consciousness which come together as we rise through our Initiations.

 

Do you view Nema's 1974 channelling as the Word of Maat?

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Cf. with "My number is 11, as all their numbers who are of us" - (AL I:60), "... the highest are of us... who sorroweth is not of us" (AL II:19), (Etc...).

Yes 'us' as in not humanity at large. 

 

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Yes 'us' as in not humanity at large. 

Oh, I thought it referred to my servants who are few and secret. The ones who are affiliated with the number eleven. Not the many and the known. And certainly not those who got a copy of the book and chose to not abide in bliss ... forever.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Yes 'us' as in not humanity at large. 

Oh, I thought it referred to my servants who are few and secret. The ones who are affiliated with the number eleven. Not the many and the known. And certainly not those who got a copy of the book and chose to not abide in bliss ... forever.

Maybe reread what I wrote. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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