Christianity and Th...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Christianity and Thelema

Page 14 / 15

ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3473
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Resulting in resignations all round?

Or, contrawise, assumption of High Office(s)?


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Our work should, but in most cases doesn't.  In a world where millions of people live closely together in cities, someone has to clean out the toilets and dispose of the shit, to give one example: I can't imagine many people getting a "pleasurable sense of fulfilment" from that, far less a sense of vocation (and I can only think of possibly one exception to the general rule, in fact: the relatively cheerful portaloo services cleaner featured in the film of Woodstock whose sentiments seemed fairly close to it).

How would you know?  Klaus Kinski was asked about whether he likes filmmaking and his answer was no he would rather do what he used to do which was cleaning toilets.  In fact you denigrating toilet cleaning is pretty shit of you (and is a common attitude) because it hasn't occurred to you that toilet cleaners may actually be "in the zone" and happy not to be doing 40 hours a week in an office.   In fact  a lot of people are 'happy' to be doing it and if Capitalism does dissolve and self-governance reigns over the planet then yeah i think we will have people who won't have to be forced into it.   Speaking of Woodstock I have to ask why a lot of 20/30 something rockstars just can't take their existence and do themselves in one way  or another.   That's not being 'in the zone' is it?  

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Temptation and trespasses.  I'm with the view in that I think there are sexual-guilt overtones in all of it....or that's what the Priests intended, maybe they warped it for their own ends.   They certainly liked to warn children of the apparent detriment of masturbation so it all comes together within the framework of what the edited historical Jesus apparently preached. 

I can't see any signs of that in the LP either (along with the "methods of attainment")

Posted by: @dom

How about Original Sin? Can you think of anything more warped than that? 

So where is Original Sin explicitly referred to in the LP also?

Posted by: @dom

Plants know where Sunlight is and they lean towards it and they also know which way gravity drags from and this where the roots head for which is where the minerals are. 

What does this mean, what is the relevance of minerals here?

 

Ok forget methods of attainment and see it as advice about how to get to the Kingdom of Heaven instead.  Original Sin is probably in Genesis in the O.T.    

 

Why is it relevant to talk about plant growth, minerals in the soil and gravity? Plants root seem to seek out minerals in the soil.   On plants and gravity;

 

See Gravitropism - Wikipedia

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Our work should, but in most cases doesn't. 

No it doesn't, does it? All people need to do is what they are good at, and (theoretically) thus interested in their work. A big problem arises when people (1) hate their job, (2) hate their boss, (3) hate their co-workers, or (4) hate the clients/patients/customers. Even if they are good and what they do, and like their work, the human factor (office politics / got restrictions) mess up the background.

But this is simply the way it goes. Some people, out of survival, will sign on to do almost anything in order to have the means to buy food and pay rent. Then they hate their job. But if they can just hang in there, while developing their true talent, maybe getting advanced education, the doors to higher levels of work may (not necessarily "will") open. Eventually one may find themselves in a slot made just for them. This probably will not happen unless they do the esoteric work as they go. It's called Magick, and (in some cases) it works.

But, as you say, in most cases doesn't.

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Our work should, but in most cases doesn't. 

No it doesn't, does it? All people need to do is what they are good at, and (theoretically) thus interested in their work. A big problem arises when people (1) hate their job, (2) hate their boss, (3) hate their co-workers, or (4) hate the clients/patients/customers. Even if they are good and what they do, and like their work, the human factor (office politics / got restrictions) mess up the background.

 

But that's not the job it's the hateful person who is basically pathological.  That is the real problem. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @dom

But that's not the job it's the hateful person who is basically pathological.  That is the real problem. 

I have hated jobs, mainly due to illogical bosses. I have just quit.

I have had enjoyable jobs, even when the boss was an alcoholic twit. I stayed on.

I had one decent job where the boss was so uptight I couldn't stay. But I played with him until he flipped and fired me. Then I collected unemployment benefits while I looked for a better deal ... which I found.

So there are many factors. But, essentially, you are correct. Some folks don't like to work. We see this in commerce and we see it in The Great Work. Karma Yoga is not working off one's karma. Karma Yoga is where the fruits of one's labor are offered up to the deity. But work is always involved.

There are also the factors of lazy workers and cruel bosses or supervisors. Greed is another factor (in workers and bosses). Every situation is unique ... although similarities arise. So, yes, hateful people are the problem, both in labor and in management. 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

 

There are also the factors of lazy workers and cruel bosses or supervisors. Greed is another factor (in workers and bosses). Every situation is unique ... although similarities arise. So, yes, hateful people are the problem, both in labor and in management. 

When you were young it was easy to say 'I quit' because unemployment was low but in the West organizations are becoming less tolerant of annoying bosses via bullying and harassment awareness.  However if workers whose bosses aren't so bad are the hateful they could do simple NLP exercises to prevent that e.g. learn CBT or absorb a bit of Dale Carnegie.  Again, stress awareness and tolerance is increasing in western organizations also, it's not yet perfect though.    Yes many factors are at work. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1769
 

@jamiejbarter
or the 666 manifestation of The Beast anyway - "is the Christ, or Messiah," of the New Aeon, replacing J.C. from two thousand years ago who is now therefore made redundant (and as he himself will be in turn). Motta even went on to say
This perception must be intuitional; it cannot be a matter of dogma or faith. Whosoever does not have it is not qualified to officiate at Thelemic rites.

Well i kind of got that from his Equinoxes but not in the Biblical Messiah sense of reading into doctrine what one would like; but more in a Aeon of Horus, 666 manifestation of The Beast sense.

“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)
“ coming of the Lord draweth nigh “( James 5:8-9 )

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“ the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. “ (Matthew 24: 30)

“ Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 32)

Maybe the Beast was fulfilling the kicking the can down the future road promise of the Jewish apocalyptic movement which was coming soon and quickly, where the dead in Christ and those asleep will rise first then the bunch who were alive or alive in Christ will achieve the attainment of being caught up in the air to meet the Lord, the Judge and the dole ? after another manner ?


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3473
 
Posted by: @dom

simple NLP exercises to prevent that e.g. learn CBT or absorb a bit of Dale Carnegie. 

I am assuming this is not the "cock and ball torture" a former GF did as part of her work at her place of employment as a dominatrix?

All this attributing bad work conditions/bad jobs to the personalities of the employee or employer or manager ignores the role of social structure in all this.

In the social form called "late capitalism" that we live under, most jobs suck because of the way society is organized so as to make them suck, and this is true regardless of the personalities of those involved.

There is another assumption that is being made here: that, if bosses have repugnant personalities, this is because they had such personalities before taking on their boss role. This assumption ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that their repugnant personalities may be, at least in some part, a product of their social roles as dominators of, and extractors of surplus value from, workers.


hermitas liked
ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @dom

 

All this attributing bad work conditions/bad jobs to the personalities of the employee or employer or manager ignores the role of social structure in all this.

In the social form called "late capitalism" that we live under, most jobs suck because of the way society is organized so as to make them suck, and this is true regardless of the personalities of those involved.

There is another assumption that is being made here: that, if bosses have repugnant personalities, this is because they had such personalities before taking on their boss role. This assumption ignores the possibility (and likelihood) that their repugnant personalities may be, at least in some part, a product of their social roles as dominators of, and extractors of surplus value from, workers.

CBT haha.

 

So Capitalism is a big ploy to ensure that people have unfulfilling jobs?   Do you think artisans and peasants under Feudalism were somehow happier?

Being a boss warps your personality?  I'm sorry but if someone allows their managerial position to change them from Ms/Mr Happy to Ms/Mr Nasty then they're crazy.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3473
 
Posted by: @dom

So Capitalism is a big ploy to ensure that people have unfulfilling jobs?   

This is not remotely what i am saying, and is more less the opposite of what i am saying- it repeats the error of attributing problems to intentions, desires, and/or personalities.

Again the issue is social structure not individual desires, or tendencies. Capitalism is "a big ploy" with the purpose of extracting surplus value from workers for the benefit of the owners of capital, PERIOD. But this means that providing fulfilling work is simply not part of the agenda.

Were feudal peasants better off? Of course not. Capitalism sells us lots of good things, like electricity, and punk rock records, and shoes, and night baseball. And the struggles of workers for centuries have given us other good things like weekends and 8 hour work days and so on. But this point has very little to do with the argument for the role of social structure in human experience.

If you do not have personal experience of how jobs change can folks, you are a very lucky, or a very unobservant, person.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @ignant666

This is not remotely what i am saying, and is more less the opposite of what i am saying

Now we're getting somewhere - the revelation of opposites.

 


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 
Posted by: @dom

Ok forget methods of attainment

Ok. You brought it up though?

Posted by: @dom

Original Sin is probably in Genesis in the O.T.

It probably is, yes.  But it's not in the Lord's Prayer, which was what you were talking about.

Posted by: @dom

In fact you denigrating toilet cleaning is pretty shit of you

This is rather an extraordinary statement to make, even for you.  Based upon what, exactly?  Where's your evidence (or else your retraction or apology)?  I think if anything, my own sentiments tended towards the complete opposite (too! - notice a pattern emerging here, dom?).  But I never argued for it being "pleasant" or "enjoyable" a pastime in itself, compared with other activities one could be employed in.  You have a yen for it yourself?.

Was your pun there meant to be deliberate? (When in coyer times, you used to write "sh1t"!)

Posted by: @dom

it hasn't occurred to you that toilet cleaners may actually be "in the zone" and happy not to be doing 40 hours a week in an office.

Oh, hasn't it? - I didn't realize.  Why thank you then, for pointing that out to me, dom.

Posted by: @dom

In fact a lot of people are 'happy' to be doing it and if Capitalism does dissolve and self-governance reigns over the planet then yeah i think we will have people who won't have to be forced into it. 

To turn the opening words of your post back to you again: "How would you know?"

N Joy


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

This is not remotely what i am saying, and is more less the opposite of what i am saying- it repeats the error of attributing problems to intentions, desires, and/or personalities.

Again the issue is social structure not individual desires, or tendencies. Capitalism is "a big ploy" with the purpose of extracting surplus value from workers for the benefit of the owners of capital, PERIOD. But this means that providing fulfilling work is simply not part of the agenda.

Were feudal peasants better off? Of course not. Capitalism sells us lots of good things, like electricity, and punk rock records, and shoes, and night baseball. And the struggles of workers for centuries have given us other good things like weekends and 8 hour work days and so on. But this point has very little to do with the argument for the role of social structure in human experience.

If you do not have personal experience of how jobs change can folks, you are a very lucky, or a very unobservant, person.

We were talking about people at work, how some get hateful and some are happy.  I still don't get how social structure has anything to do with happiness levels.   There are kids who take guns into school and shoot everyone, what's that got to do with Capitalist social structures and the workplace?  The point is unhappy schoolkids are more than likely going to go on to become unhappy workers.   You worked in education, you know that school is a prep-factory for real world factories etc. 

Like I said CBT would sort out a lot of workplace unhappiness and then that happier person would naturally gravitate elsewhere where they'd be even happier.     

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

Our work should, but in most cases doesn't.  In a world where millions of people live closely together in cities, someone has to clean out the toilets and dispose of the shit, to give one example: I can't imagine many people getting a "pleasurable sense of fulfilment" from that, far less a sense of vocation (and I can only think of possibly one exception to the general rule, in fact: the relatively cheerful portaloo services cleaner featured in the film of Woodstock whose sentiments seemed fairly close to it).

 

..is what you said earlier.   What's your point here? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 
Posted by: @dom

What's your point here? 

Duh, I was pointing out in respect of your comment that, "Our job should give the same pleasurable sense of fulfilment that e.g. a sculptor or a film maker gets after or during his work" (apart from Klaus Kinski, apparently) - our job should, but in most cases does not, and then went on to discuss that briefly with an example of a job that most people would not want to do given a choice.  Capice?

Ever decreasing circularwisely yours,

N Joy

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

This is rather an extraordinary statement to make

I thought is was either extra-extraordinary, or that RTC was humming his new book. I thought I would duck the confusion and hoped someone like you would call it out. Such potty lingo. Such quaint aphorisms and allegories.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

my own sentiments tended towards the complete opposite (too! ...) ...

But if "everybody" thinks the opposite, then the lone announcer is left with no validity. It gets so confusing ... at times ... like this.

Posted by: @dom

What's your point here? 

Yeah. Make a point ... and while you're making it, make sure it relates to Christianity and Thelema or the thread-checker will punch your clock.

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

What's your point here? 

Duh, I was pointing out in respect of your comment that, "Our job should give the same pleasurable sense of fulfilment that e.g. a sculptor or a film maker gets after or during his work" (apart from Klaus Kinski, apparently) - our job should, but in most cases does not, and then went on to discuss that briefly with an example of a job that most people would not want to do given a choice.  Capice?

Ever decreasing circularwisely yours,

N Joy

 

But most people wouldn't have to do it would they?  They'd be doing their thing e.g. postal delivery or teaching Geology.   Some would want to do it so best not to disparage it eh?  Why am I explaining this again and again?

 

@shiva

 

No offence but if you had been paying attention you'd understand we got here by discussing Christ's interest in "toiling" so yes it is OT. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3473
 

Okay, so "CBT" is not apparently "cock and ball torture". Is it perhaps "cognitive behavioral therapy"? This doesn't seem to make any more sense in context than my suggestion- maybe less.

Honestly puzzled- what is this "CBT" that will "sort out a lot of workplace unhappiness and then that happier person would naturally gravitate elsewhere where they'd be even happier"?


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 
Posted by: @dom

Some would want to do it so best not to disparage it eh? 

Yes, there are just so many of them dedicated to the job, aren't there?  (And if I'm not careful, I'm going to put all of them off...) Tell me if you reckon it's that marvellous, why aren't you doing it yourself? 

And again, whereabouts have I ever "denigrated" or "disparaged" the activity or those who do do it (just by saying I thought there are other jobs more "pleasurable/ enjoyable")?

Posted by: @dom

Why am I explaining this again and again?

I don't know - perhaps because you're some sort of a repetitive moron?  (Just asking!)

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @dom

No offence but if you had been paying attention you'd understand we got here by discussing Christ's interest in "toiling" so yes it is OT. 

Well, yes, or no, I do remember the Lilies not Toiling, but I missed the shift to toileting. I will try to pay attention, but it's like watching a ping-pong game - after a while things get fuzzy as people explain unexplainable things again and again.

Anyway, I'm not the thread checker, and I was merely warning JB not to get caught off-topic.

 


ReplyQuote
hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 192
 

Crowley's diaries do suggest plenty of bouts of toiling on the toilet, in service of the Great Work mind you....for was it Choronozon stretching the portal via Nueberg et. al.... or just too much H one can only speculate, but I am sure that there might be reason to flush or pour dirt over this mound of a thread winding round the ages...yawn and a wipe...

So speaking of work which implies economics, we all got to eat, and there is a bit of wisdom in the Bible that actually works as regards actuarial accounts, wisdom and one having a periodically full belly to then say will and grace!

From II Timothy 2, v. 6 & 7

6 It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Which means pay the farmers their due first if you don't want to starve. 

This has been codified as U.S. Statutory Law as 7 USC Sec 602 from AAA sec. 2 of the Emergency of 1933, and was best implemented from 1942-1952 as Agricultural products where priced at 90% of Parity Price which is that price which allowed farmers work to earn enough to purchase goods and services of manufacturing and service sectors...where this inherent wisdom allowed for those earnings paid to producers of wealth first, fairly, allowed the rest of the economy to work such that there was no post WWII depression, but a boom....but in 1952 the bankers wanted to sell money, hence they needed to ensure that the base of the economy had little, so they stopped this law that gave farmers first share of the fruits...

Today according to USDA farmers only get about a $0.31 cent dollar, with subsidies helping Bill Gates obtain more land from bankruptcies....and thus the plutocrats further enslave humanity with attendant rumors of contagion and the like...

http://www.normeconomics.org/parity_table_45-16eb.pdf


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

Is it perhaps "cognitive behavioral therapy"? 

Honestly puzzled- what is this "CBT" that will "sort out a lot of workplace unhappiness and then that happier person would naturally gravitate elsewhere where they'd be even happier"?

Yes Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

Well any miserable son of a bitch who thinks he's stuck in a dead end job could learn a little bit of NLP and sort his confined horizons out.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 
Posted by: @dom

toilet cleaners may actually be "in the zone" and happy not to be doing 40 hours a week in an office.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within all of you poo...

 

Get scrubbing

 

@Jamiebarter

Our job should give the same pleasurable sense of fulfilment that e.g. a sculptor or a film maker gets after or during his work"

...sometimes writing or recording a song is like a communion with God - everything flows as one without effort. But generally speaking it is often not just tedious, but somewhat torturous.  But yes then you have the fulfillment that you pushed yourself through it.  Or you just hate it and are embarrassed.  Either way...

 

'And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Matthew 26:30

And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Mark 14:26

In this column I want us to think of Jesus and music or singing.

To the church member today it must be shocking that there is only this one reference in the life of Jesus to music or singing. This is spoken of in Matthew and Mark concerning the same event; that of Jesus giving the Bread and the Wine for us to remember His Body and Blood.'

huh  https://www.blessitt.com/jesus-and-music/

 

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @christibrany

The Kingdom of Heaven is within all of you poo...Get scrubbing

 

What's your point?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 

@dom

 

Scrub off the shit so you can become Heaven. 


dom liked
ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @christibrany

The Kingdom of Heaven is within all of you poo...

A very interesting point of you view. Let me look up that scenario from some book ...

On our first day back, I was helping Mont clean up the catering house. I was engaged in cleaning a particularly dirty, black, gooey mess near a drain under a metal table. Thank goodness it was not smelly." - Insude the Law

While engaged in precision cleaning that was more difficult than any toilet cleaning (it was the hardened grease, you see - sort of like epoxy mixed with engine oil), a revolution or revelation came upon me, a major league insight. I found it ironic that such a lofty insight should be accompanied by the foulest of tasks.

Posted by: @dom

What's your point? 

His point, further elaborated by myself, is that he understands the highest and the lowest must be enjoyed ... simultaneously.

Don't let me put words in you mouth, Chris. I was just interjecting intersecting interinfecting [choose one - choose correctly and win $10,000 in tax-free bitcoins].

 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 

@shiva

 

What about infecting? 

 

I think we all get each other here just enough - but there is just enough push and pull to make it a worthy dojo of re-learning. Get thee to the camps. 

 

Covid-Christ 

He was impaled on three needles in the morning of the third day. His symptoms were few, but he he flew. Away from us mere mortals on wings of death.

 

/cut cut cut. 

 

 


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 

PS to say in my zany way, or is it , that my first job was at the hallowed halls of the King of Burgers, BK and the grease was heinous indeed.  I saw no Christ in the burnt dregs at the bottom of the holy broiler but alas I was but 15 years of age and had not quite got the Sight. 


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3473
 

All this "dignity of labor" stuff brings up two memories:

1) Places that serve food have a thing called a grease trap, that prevents grease going into the water/sewer system. Periodically it must be emptied. This is an extremely vile stinky job.

There has never ever been a person who "got into" doing this, who was so zen they dug emptying the grease trap. But it must be done. Usually by the lowest-status person available, like teenage me.

2) I used to work on a lot of toxic tort litigation. One case involved a factory that made internal vinyl parts for cars (door handles eg). There was a deposition that has always stuck in my mind, from a fellow who was told one day to clean out the tank where the factory was dumping the toxic wastes that the case was about:

Q: And did there come a time when they told you to go in that tank and clean it?

A: Yes.

Q; What did you say when they told you to do that?

A: I told them to go pound it up their ass.

An expression i have never encountered in any other context, and which i adopted enthusiastically.


dom and christibrany liked
ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 
Posted by: @ignant666

This is an extremely vile stinky job.

yes sir!


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 

@ignant666

 

this kind of work made me look back at preteen me and say, washing dishes is fun! lol 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @dom

toilet cleaners may actually be "in the zone" and happy not to be doing 40 hours a week in an office.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within all of you poo...

 

Get scrubbing

 

Posted by: @christibrany

@ignant666

 

this kind of work made me look back at preteen me and say, washing dishes is fun! lol 

 

Posted by: @ignant666

All this "dignity of labor" stuff brings up two memories.

 

 

This is all funny here but there's an interesting passage from Wilhelm Reich's The Mass Pyschology of Fascism (Condoor Book, Souvenir Press, 1991 reprint edition)

 

In chapter 2 (The authoritarian ideology of the family in the Mass Pyschology of Fascism) on page 70 he states that Fascism's rise relies on the psychological degradation of certain working class occupations (namely manual work) which stems from an aspiration to imitate the reactionary white collar worker. Fascism plays upon the inferiority of someone who is doing such perceived degrading work as the Fascists promise to abolish their proletariat status.

Amazing stuff.   What do you make of that Chris?

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  

...and this is where/when I/we got onto that subject;

 
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Our work should, but in most cases doesn't.  In a world where millions of people live closely together in cities, someone has to clean out the toilets and dispose of the shit, to give one example: I can't imagine many people getting a "pleasurable sense of fulfilment" from that, far less a sense of vocation (and I can only think of possibly one exception to the general rule, in fact: the relatively cheerful portaloo services cleaner featured in the film of Woodstock whose sentiments seemed fairly close to it).

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2834
 

@dom

 

Are you effing kidding me?

 

I think that all manual labour is not just useful but necessary to the psychological development of the offspring and lower classes.

IE we all need to wash dishes and learn normal crap before we can get more towards the mentat.

What does that have to do with fascism?

 

Posted by: @dom

reactionary white collar worker.

what is that?

 

If one works in an office they are reactionary?

Reaction-ing against what? 

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @ignant666

Periodically it must be emptied. This is an extremely vile stinky job.

I learned about that in The US Army. Somehow, I managed to deflect that duty, praised as it was "the worst job available." So life and the secret chiefs caught up with me later in life and stuck my nose it it. I don't remember the smelly part - this stuff had all caked dry.

I thought there was a fash-izm thread for big brothers, and how does the non-toiling lily relate to wu wei, and thus Jesus the sannyasin?


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @christibrany

@dom

 

Are you effing kidding me?

 

I think that all manual labour is not just useful but necessary to the psychological development of the offspring and lower classes.

 

Who are you Prince Charles or someone?  Dafuck are you on about 'lower classes'?  I agree that families should allocate tasks and chores to their offspring certainly. 

 

 

Posted by: @christibrany
Posted by: @dom

reactionary white collar worker.

what is that?

 

If one works in an office they are reactionary?

Reaction-ing against what? 

 

Who are white collar reactionaries?  Think already stupidly wealthy Republican politicians (and their ilk and the suckers and tools who pretend not to be working class) who fight to keep everyone's wages low and even fight to keep minimum wage very low.  Reaction to what?  Fairer fucking wages for a start but ultimately a reaction to the brotherhood of man.    See Christ.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1105
 

JC's teaching[-s] with relevance to environmental stewardship:

JC taught that God pays attention to the life and death of even a sparrow (Matthew 10:29; Luke 12:6), indicating that caring much about nature is in line with God's nature.

JC also taught the second great commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39), and that whatever we do "to one of the least of these" we do to Christ (Matthew 25:40). And failing to recognize how our waste, destruction, and over-consumption of natural resources affects others, and do something to change this for the better, means failing to faithfully adhere to said teachings.

If Christians do not recognize how their waste, destruction, and over-consumption of natural resources affects others, and do something to change, they can neither fulfill JC's second great commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39), nor in a compassionate way fulfill JC's teaching that what they do "to one of the least of these" (= their brothers (, sisters) or neighbors), they do to Christ (Matthew 25:40).

AC's teaching[-s] with relevance to environmental stewardship:

"“The ultimate aim is [...] to reintegrate Conscience, on true scientific principles, as the warden of conduct, the monitor of the people, and the guarantee of their governors.” (Duty)

“Apparent, and sometimes even real, conflict between interests will frequently arise. Such cases are to be decided by the general value of the contending parties in the scale of Nature. Thus, a tree has a right to its life; but a man being more than a tree, he may cut it down for fuel or shelter when need arises. Even so, let him remember that the Law never fails to avenge infraction: as when wanton deforestation has ruined a climate or a soil, or as when the importation of rabbits for a cheap supply of food has created a plague.” (Duty)"

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

JC's teaching[-s] with relevance to environmental stewardship:

JC taught that God pays attention to the life and death of even a sparrow (Matthew 10:29; Luke 12:6), indicating that caring much about nature is in line with God's nature..............

 

If Christians do not recognize how their waste, destruction, and over-consumption of natural resources affects others, and do something to change, they can neither fulfill JC's second great commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39), nor in a compassionate way fulfill JC's teaching that what they do "to one of the least of these" (= their brothers (, sisters) or neighbors), they do to Christ (Matthew 25:40).

 

In the past 1000 years the human population has gone from 300 million to 7.7 billion and this has impacted negatively upon the environment via demands for this or that product or resource.   According to Jaz Coleman the World Health Organization had a meeting in which they decided that something had to be done.  What was that?  To secretly poison supermarket food-supplies and kill masses of people.    Is Jaz Coleman relying on that notable academic and scientist David Icke for his ideas?  I don't know but anyway overpopulation, what can be done?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @dom

In the past 1000 years the human population has gone from 300 million to 7.7 billion

When I was a kid, we were taught that the entire planet contained 2 billion people. Now that we're pushing 8 billion, it appears to be accelerating, this population thing.

Posted by: @dom

overpopulation, what can be done?

Sterilization ... starting with those who are carrying genes that poison life early. This was covered in Hot Zones. The reason why we don't do it is also explained.

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

Sterilization ... starting with those who are carrying genes that poison life early. This was covered in Hot Zones. The reason why we don't do it is also explained.

 

What, authoritarian crime-gene engineering/elimination?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @dom

What, authoritarian crime-gene engineering/elimination?

No. Just sterilization against diseases that cripple people before they are forty. Not racial, not religious. Not political. No target but the crippling diseases known to be inherited.

 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1105
 

dom: "... overpopulation, what can be done?"

 

Globally decreasing our species' sperm count so much that it can reproduce only via (officially authorised) in vitro fertilization. 

( - - - )

 

JC taught that he was God manifest in flesh (Jhn 10:30), (Jhn 14:6) and (Jhn 14:9–11) (, and JC is referred to as God manifest in flesh in the three synoptic Gospels, (Matthew 4:1-3), (Matthew 8:28-29), (Matthew 14:32-33), (Mark 1:1), (Mark 15:39), and (Luke 1:35)).

AC taught that God manifest in flesh, will be the name of any magician daily consuming an Eucharist which he describes in his writings:

"... the [Roman] Catholic Church has maintained well enough the traditions of the true Gnostic Church in whose keeping the secrets are [Book 4, Part 3]."

Crowley taught it was important for magicians to perform a eucharistic ritual of some kind daily (from Magick Book 4, Liber ABA, ch. 20):

"A Eucharist of some sort should most assuredly be consummated daily by every magician, and he should regard it as the main sustenance of his magical life. It is of more importance than any other magical ceremony, because it is a complete circle. The whole of the force expended is completely re-absorbed; yet the virtue is that vast gain represented by the abyss between Man and God.

The magician becomes filled with God, fed upon God, intoxicated with God. Little by little his body will become purified by the internal lustration of God; day by day his mortal frame, shedding its earthly elements, will become in very truth the Temple of the Holy Ghost. Day by day matter is replaced by Spirit, the human by the divine; ultimately the change will be complete; God manifest in flesh will be his name."


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1769
 

“ Thrill with lissome lust of the light,
O man! My man!
Come careering out of the night
Of Pan! Io Pan!
Io Pan! Io Pan! Come over the sea
From Sicily and from Arcady!
Roaming as Bacchus, with fauns and pards
And nymphs and satyrs for thy guards,
On a milk-white ass, come over the sea
To me, to me, “

“ Come with Apollo in bridal dress
(Shepherdess and pythoness)
Come with Artemis, silken shod, “

“ I am awake
In the grip of the snake. “

“ I am god,
Flesh to thy bone, flower to thy rod.
With hoofs of steel I race on the rocks
Through solstice stubborn to equinox.
And I rave; and I rape and I rip and I rend
Everlasting, world without end,
Mannikin, maiden, Maenad, man,
In the might of Pan.
Io Pan! Io Pan Pan! Pan! Io Pan! “
Hymn to Pan

Let loose the arousal of creative enthusiasm, the divine genius, unrestricted unadulterated by encroachments of religion.
Man creates the gods.

“ Omicron The exalted "Devil" (also the "other" secret Eye) by the formula of the Initiation of Horus elsewhere described in detail. This "Devil" is called Satan or Shaitan, and regarded with horror by people who are ignorant of his formula, and, imagining themselves to be evil, accuse Nature herself of their own phantasmal crime. Satan is Saturn, Set, Abrasax, Adad, Adonis, Attis, Adam, Adonai, etc. “

“ We have therefore no scruple in restoring the "devil-worship" of such ideas as those which the laws of sound, and the phenomena of speech and hearing, compel us to connect with the group of "Gods" whose names are based upon Sht, or D, vocalized by the free breath A. For these Names imply the qualities of courage, frankness, energy, pride, power and triumph; they are the words which express the creative and paternal will.

Thus "the Devil" is Capricornus, the Goat who leaps upon the loftiest mountains, the Godhead which, if it become manifest in man, makes him Aegipan, the All. “
Magick pg 172,173


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  

@wrwb

Hold on, governmental enforced sterilization  of anyone who will have potential health problems?  That's not enough. 

Looks like it'll have to be fertilizing Mars with greenhouse plants then.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1105
 

dom: "@wrwb Hold on, governmental enforced sterilization  of anyone who will have potential health problems?  That's not enough."

Dom, I don't argue for "sterilization  of anyone who will have potential health problems", Shiva does. 

I have mentioned the more subtle solution to human overpopulation, of globally lowering our species' sperm count so much that it can reproduce only via in vitro fertilization.

Both A. Crowley and many Christians oppose[-d] abortion[-s], and said solution is not based on abortion[-s], but on care and nurture of humans, from conception to birth and beyond, in the name of Horus (or Jesus for that matter), as a happy and stimulating childhood is no small matter, and investing in children yields long-term benefits.

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred - quoting Perdurabo

"God manifest in flesh will be his name."

The problem here is that AC didn't seem to "manifest" God. I mean, I wasn't there, so I can't really tell, but all reports from others close to him do not seem to describe a "Holy Man" around whom others gather in order to get the God-vibe in a second-hand manner.

Posted by: @tiger

Man creates the gods.

Yeah. Man (certain men) gets in touch with his/her primordial nature. Fine. Then he/she starts naming names to represent God, or one of "the gods," and (of course) there will always be an opposing force (a cempetitor god), and we're back in Rome, or Greece, or AEgypt, trying to figure out which temple to attend in order to pave our way to the greatest power, or wealth.

I smell a rat.

Posted by: @dom

Hold on, governmental enforced sterilization  of anyone who will have potential health problems?  That's not enough. 

No, it's just a beginning. But, you see, I am retired, so it's up to you (the younger all-wise generations) to sort out the mess ... or be overwhemed by a disease-ridden multitude (from within and without).

"Birth - Incessant Birth!" said the Buddha.

Posted by: @dom

Looks like it'll have to be fertilizing Mars with greenhouse plants then.

?

No. Your job is to sort this mess out. You and your cohorts. When you get it down to two, well-difined opposites that can be printed on a ballot, I will register to vote, and I will vote for whichever alternative offers the best chance for species survival.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Dom, I don't argue for "sterilization  of anyone who will have potential health problems", Shiva does. 

This is correct. But the word "potential" has been inserted by the Borg, or The Black Lodge, or someone who is misquoting me.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

I have mentioned the more subtle solution to human overpopulation, of globally lowering our species' sperm count so much that it can reproduce only via in vitro fertilization.

And who will control the permission to enter in vitrio repro? Certainly not the politicians, the army, the religiously-inclined? And we certainly can't trust the doctors or the dentists. What we need is a cosmic avatar to present himself, take on the world problem, then tell us what to do.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

care and nurture of humans, from conception to birth and beyond

I say, this week at least, that it's that conception phase that needs controlling.


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

said solution is not based on abortion[-s], but on care and nurture of humans, from conception to birth and beyond, in the name of Horus (or Jesus for that matter), as a happy and stimulating childhood is no small matter, and investing in children yields long-term benefits.

In connection with the above, what do you [anyone] think of the following (to copy your [wrwb's] usual technique of answering quotes with a quote without additional comment):

With freedom comes responsibility, but too many of the ME generation conveniently forgot this.  This fundamental error is what helped destroy the 60s revolution.  And then when you throw drugs into the mix with kids, it's rarely a happy ending. [...] I'm a social libertarian, and believe if you're not a parent, you can pretty much do as you want, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody.  But if you're going to bring a child into the world, your personal behaviour has to be curtailed, you have to sacrifice.  If you don't want to, then don't have children, no one's forcing you to.

This is really where the roots of family breakdown started, and it's the one big issue that modern conservatives actually have banged to rights.  The break-up of the family and the chaos that comes with it, has been ruinous for children's lives, and is responsible for the deterioration of communities that has led to a broken society.  The absence of fathers in the lives of their sons and daughters is the root cause of practically every social ill in modern society, from gang violence to teen pregnancy and teen prostitution to violent crime.  Boys grow up without guidance and discipline, with no concept of what it means to be a man, and they end up getting their ideas from criminals on the streets, and it's just the blind leading the blind.  While girls, who are deprived of the platonic love and affection of a father, often prematurely seek and find older male substitutes for it with disastrous consequences.  ...  (Spencer Kansa, "Wormwood Star: The Magickal Life of Marjorie Cameron", pp. 293-4)

Whether we are in the Aeon of Horus or not, the search seems to be on for the guidance of a lost (archetypal?) male role figure model...

Someone to claim us, someone to follow
Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
Someone to fool us, someone like you
We want you, Big Father Brother, Big Brother

(We'll be living from sin
Then we can really begin)

- From "Big Brother" by David Bowie

NJOY


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5699
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

the search seems to be on for the guidance of a lost (archetypal?) male role figure model...

Yes. The coming avatar. The tenth avatar. The 2nd coming. The Coming Buddha (Maitreya). Do muslims have a coming one, or does the Mahdhi [sic?] simply arise from time to time?

Historically speaking, the guys who did arise were so little known in their own time (and were popularized much later) that we have little chance of encountering a live manifestation.

I'd say it's better to climb up the rope or ladder (or staircase to heaven for the physicallt-challenged) by one's own self and look around ... as opposed to waiting and hoping.

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2861
Topic starter  

The environment is getting wrecked by the political parties that represent the assholes who are trying to get a camel through the eye of a needle.  Yes that metaphor from Christ was his contribution to environmental damage. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1769
 

@Shiva
“ The problem here is that AC didn't seem to "manifest" God. I mean, I wasn't there, so I can't really tell, but all reports from others close to him do not seem to describe a "Holy Man" around whom others gather in order to get the God-vibe in a second-hand manner. “

Isn’t that what the Golden Dawn Adepts saw and refused to initiate Crowley into the Second Order ?

Did not The unseen transcendent cosmic ascendancy see a Christ like figure, Buddha Mohamed, LaoTzu type, in Crowley and choose him as the next master ?

And did he not achieve an exalted primordial nature grade above the moral conceptions of mere inculcated humans with some such word as exempt ?

And did he not use poetry as something higher than ordinary, mass-conventional logic and rationality, bringing creativity and vigor above all things and using Dionysian Kunsttrieben impulses and way of thinking and feeling to create works that transmit a particular picture, interpretation of the world, of an ecstatic god force and an individualistic Übermensch star power ?

 


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1805
 
Posted by: @tiger

Isn’t that what the Golden Dawn Adepts saw and refused to initiate Crowley into the Second Order ?

What - they saw the presence (or the absence) of a "Holy Man"-type vibe (- or not)?

Posted by: @tiger

Did not [...]

And did he not [...] 

And did he not [...]

And if he did not, what then... (when it seems as though - in part at least - he did) ?

What-not diddyliciously yours,

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Page 14 / 15
Share: