Christianity and Th...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Christianity and Thelema

Page 15 / 16

wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

Shiva: "And who will control the permission to enter in vitrio repro? Certainly not the politicians, the army, the religiously-inclined? And we certainly can't trust the doctors or the dentists. What we need is a cosmic avatar to present himself, take on the world problem, then tell us what to do. [...] I say, this week at least, that it's that conception phase that needs controlling."

 

Agree to that the usual suspects; the politicians, the army, the religiously-inclined, or the doctors or the dentists, or some cosmic avatar, like Jesus Christ returned, or the expounder of "4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L" (BOTL II:76.), or "The child of thy bowels ... " who shall "... behold all these mysteries hidden ..." within AC's The Book of the Law (BOTL I:54-55:.), will not controll said permission.

Let the invisible hand of a free market economy decide. If you do not have enough resources to pay for it, you will not attain it.  

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

a free market economy decide.

The politicians, army, religiousers, and the docs will not allow a free market. There's no profit to be gained in anything that is free.


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 
Posted by: @shiva

free market

There are no "free markets" without a great deal of government invention to adjudicate disputes, and ensure that would-be market participants aren't simply robbed by those with better violence capabilities.

"Free markets" originally was used by Adam Smith to mean markets where there was no rent-seeking, that is to say making money simply by owning rights or objects (as opposed to making money by manufacturing things, and other activity).

It has come to mean "markets where there is no government invention upsetting to persons who make a lot of money off our current arrangements", that is to say for example progressive income taxation to fund all the government intervention needed to make sure the rich keep their market gains.

This is presented as "markets without government intervention" when of course it is nothing of the kind. What is meant is "markets where government intervention is used only to ensure that rents are extracted and retained by rentiers."

So "free markets" originally meant the opposite of what it is now used to mean, FYI.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @ignant666

So "free markets" originally meant the opposite of what it is now used to mean, FYI.

Okay, so this has been inverted (turned upside down) just like everything else.

I will find other ways to retain what's left of my sanity (rather than rely on any definitions ... of anything).


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @ignant666

So "free markets" originally meant the opposite of what it is now used to mean, FYI.

Okay, so this has been inverted (turned upside down) just like everything else.

I will find other ways to retain what's left of my sanity (rather than rely on any definitions ... of anything).

As R.A.Wilson said, this is the situation;

There is a monopoly on the ownership of 

1) superior firepower  2)  the medium of exchange   and 3) land.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

There is a monopoly on the ownership of 

1) superior firepower  2)  the medium of exchange   and 3) land

Which one of these is in the Free Market that I can get for free?


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

Me: "Let the invisible hand of a free market economy decide. If you do not have enough resources to pay for it, you will not attain it (= permission to enter in vitrio reproduction)."

 

Shiva: "The politicians, army, religiousers, and the docs will not allow a free market. There's no profit to be gained in anything that is free."

 

No, not free like in free stuff, free like in the free market forces determining who succeeds or fails in getting permission to enter in vitrio reproduction. 

((BOTL, Chapter II, 19., 21., 46., 47., 48., 49., and Chapter III, 3., and 46.:) "Is a God to live in a dog? No! but the highest are of us. They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us. [...]

We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. [...] stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. [...] Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. [...]" [...]

Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart? [...] Where I am these are not. [...] Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler. [...] I am unique & conqueror. I am not of the slaves that perish. Be they damned & dead! Amen. [...]

 Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them. [...]

I am the warrior Lord[...]. I will bring you to victory & joy: I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!")

 

Both AC Thelema and Christianity proclaims ultimately obeying a higher authority than the state:

AC and in The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government: “The absolute principle of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will.” And AC with respect to rights listed in "Book 77" (written in 1941, but based on a much earlier O.T.O. initiation lecture.): "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights."

Christians must ultimately obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29), as Jesus is Lord and Caesar is not. (If the state should command what God forbids or forbid what God commands then the duty of the Christian must be to “obey God rather than men” (Acts 4:19; 5:29.) 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

No, not free like in free stuff, free like in the free market forces determining who succeeds or fails ...

Well, my "free stuff" remark was a joke. I am not so stoopid as to thinks things will be given to me. Beond that, I never took a course in economics, so I really don't know what factors are involved. My vocation was always in the "free market" of education. Private proprietary post-secondary education. Where the sharks swim.

Even then, the schools were held in firm check by State laws. The feds had nothing to say in the matter. My job (aside from teaching and building curricula) was always to do the fucking government paperwork (nobody else could do it at the schools I serviced). So I kept them legal and in the pond. Then it was shark against shark for the prize. The prize was students and their associated tuition.

Since I succeeded in each of five schools, I guess I have some idea about a free market, at the street level, but as to economics in general, I don't really know anything.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit:

I launched one school after another into the status of Accreditation, and the rewards of getting Federal Financial Aid for students. The schools immediately raised their tuition (usually 3x) and prospered. But there was no place for me in a smooth-running, Federally-blessed gold mine, so I moved on to the the next school still swimming in the free-market pond.

Then, when I looked back, after running up five, I saw three of them flounder and slowly go down. Yeah, pity not the fallen. By the way, it was always irregularities in the financial aid office that brought them down.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Dost thou fail?

No. That never happened.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance.

So what? What does this have to do with schools, or free markets, or whatever the original topic is?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Both AC Thelema and Christianity proclaims ultimately obeying a higher authority than the state:

Yes, but Jesus said to pay one's taxes, and Crowley suggested influencing the State (through the OTO, of all things).

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

“The absolute principle of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will.”

This is abstract idealism. It is not the way things work. In fact, it is a paradox. Now what will we do?


ReplyQuote
hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 271
 
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

 

Personally, I am in agreement with Kierkegaard who criticized his contemporaries in the Danish Lutheran Church who were focused on honing in on the “Historical Jesus.” Kierkegaard would conclude that the further one got to this elusive creation, the farther one got from the True and Living Christ who is encountered in the Immanence where Time and Eternity are joined. This Immanence is embodied in the “God-Man” (SK's term) which we can see expressing the “In the World but not OF it” Life-Stream of Initiation.

 

Blake went further and saw Jesus as the Divine Imagination. Not even a “State” but the very Life of God. And the True God (with whom the Son is One) is not the blood-slurping bi-polar sadist who pops up in the OT (say, to whack a few dozen kidlets) but the undifferentiated consciousness back of all “fallen” dualistic experience (the ONE from whence emanates Barbelo, the Autogenes, Aions and so forth).

 

So with the Gospels, we are looking at something which is addressed to the “Spiritual Senses” (as Blake would say). What they say (or don't) about the sex life of someone who we clearly cannot get any sort of historical handle on is irrelevant. There is a Way of Initiation (into the Kingdom of God) being described and depicted. These also need to be read outside of subsequent “official” interpretation (including the canonized Pauline epistles). And we may also read them profitably in context of certain Gnostic Gospels. For example, Luke, John and Acts did not appear until AFTER the writing of the Secret Book of John. These recently unsealed scrolls yield up even more vision, poetry and intel for the Initiatic Mind!

Thanks for the interjection of Kierkegaard and the Blake and further commentary, as I am reminded of how at one time Kierkegaard represented a certain spiritual bridge fueled by a mystical period to which Kierkegaard's existentialism, the taking of the leap, was a tangible reality enlivens by introduction to Blake....I remember having come across Norman O. Brown's book Love's Body... which is a poetic initiation into  form understanding that recognized the death instinct as being the organization of the libidinal body along the lines of genital organization rather than a polymorphous eroticism of all of the senses which is the Resurrected Body...that is the leap...a leap that I think is akin to when one first sets off to really swim or ride a bike...or first kisses or that from a moment ago while neath the stars.... what a night AU Nuit!

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  

Check out Chapter 7 of The Book  of Lies 'The Dinosaurs' in which Christ is out in his place as a corruption and perversion of The Dionysius legend.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

Check out Chapter 7 of The Book  of Lies

"All these were men; their Godhead is the result of mythopoeia."

"The legend of "Christ" is only a corruption and perversion of other legends. Especially of Dionysus: Compare the account of Christ before Herod/Pilate in the gospels, and of Dionysus before Pentheus in "The Bacchae"."

Yes, I remember first reading this 55 years ago. These two statements helped to form the basis of further studies into the origins and manipulations of Christianity.

Also, so far, the responses Iin the 333 thread) have been in favor of 333, even to the point of elevating it (333) in importance or value above 220 (AL). I don't know if this is a sin or not.


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

I don't know if this is a sin or not.

Yes I'd say so. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

Yes I'd say so.

You are probably right. AL is the central sutra of Thelema. One Star says members must accept AL as "the" book, and the authority of The Beast and his Scarlet Woman (Women?). It says nothing about Book of Lies. So I could make a case against myself, and a few others, in front of the Grand Tribunal ... if I were in the OTO.

But I've been making a worse case against myself lately by implying what Ignant terms a "post-Thelemic" appreciation. There is enough room there for Christianity, Thelema, Arcania, Tibetan weirdos, Muslim-mania, and Buddhism too (All of these in their pure, unorganized state, please). 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Yes I'd say so.

 

But I've been making a worse case against myself lately by implying what Ignant terms a "post-Thelemic" appreciation,

What is that?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 271
 
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Yes I'd say so.

 

But I've been making a worse case against myself lately by implying what Ignant terms a "post-Thelemic" appreciation,

What is that?

To answer your question might entail either:

"Thelema is dead, long live Thelema" 

or

Some people have not had enough of Because.and thus have not gotten out!


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

or

Some people have not had enough of Because.and thus have not gotten out!

What, Ignant as earth-bound terrestrial territorial 'dog of reason'? 

 

From Chapter 2;

27. There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.

28. Now a curse upon Because and his kin!

29. May Because be accursed for ever!

30. If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.

31. If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.

32. Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

33. Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 271
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Me: "Let the invisible hand of a free market economy decide. If you do not have enough resources to pay for it, you will not attain it (= permission to enter in vitrio reproduction)."

 

Shiva: "The politicians, army, religiousers, and the docs will not allow a free market. There's no profit to be gained in anything that is free."

 

No, not free like in free stuff, free like in the free market forces determining who succeeds or fails in getting permission to enter in vitrio reproduction. 

((BOTL, Chapter II, 19., 21., 46., 47., 48., 49., and Chapter III, 3., and 46.:) "Is a God to live in a dog? No! but the highest are of us. They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us. [...]

We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. [...] stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. [...] Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. [...]" [...]

Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart? [...] Where I am these are not. [...] Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler. [...] I am unique & conqueror. I am not of the slaves that perish. Be they damned & dead! Amen. [...]

 Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them. [...]

I am the warrior Lord[...]. I will bring you to victory & joy: I will be at your arms in battle & ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any!")

 

Both AC Thelema and Christianity proclaims ultimately obeying a higher authority than the state:

AC and in The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government: “The absolute principle of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will.” And AC with respect to rights listed in "Book 77" (written in 1941, but based on a much earlier O.T.O. initiation lecture.): "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights."

Christians must ultimately obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29), as Jesus is Lord and Caesar is not. (If the state should command what God forbids or forbid what God commands then the duty of the Christian must be to “obey God rather than men” (Acts 4:19; 5:29.) 

Dear WellReadWellBred,

I think you might need to read some more lest your breeding outstrip your ability to feed yourself, for the problem with such pronouncements of the 'free market' is that they become an excuse to steal one's daily bread rather than to pay a fair price.

Thus so called division of human home into the strong and the weak, would have the once strong, become victims through market manipulations that keep prices of one's 'Daily Bread' artificially low, to thus serve those who do not produce wealth, but rather produce the illusions of wealth that keep people enslaved to a fiat currency system based upon not grain silos by nuclear missile silos.

Charles Walters classic book Unforgiven: American Economic System SOLD for Debt and War is essential reading for Christian and Thelemite alike confused by the false dialectic of Ayn Rand v Karl Marx.

 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @shiva
But I've been making a worse case against myself lately by implying what Ignant terms a "post-Thelemic" appreciation,
Posted by: @dom

What is that?

The worst case scenario? Post-Thelemic?

"Post" means mail, a fence support, and "after."

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

To answer your question might entail either: "Thelema is dead, long live Thelema" 
or ... Some people have not had enough of Because.and thus have not gotten out!

In this case "post" means after.

Thelema is not dead; it is just beginning.

Posted by: @dom

What, Ignant as earth-bound terrestrial territorial 'dog of reason'? 

 

Um, not quite. Perhaps if you reverse some of your qualifiers in your question, you will solve the puzzle ... or you can refer to Ch 23 in the explodingly-popular Book of Lies.

Posted by: @dom

33. Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!

 

I fail to understand why dogs are repeatedly singled/signaled out for derision and downcasting in AL. First of all, dogs are not "reasonable." Secondly, dogs don't ask "Why?"

Instead of kicking the dogs around, and throwing them into pits, one should cultivate dogdom. After all, who do you think is in charge after the moment of your (anyone's) death?

The cult of Anubis doesn't get primary, or even secondary, billing in the AEgyptian Extravaganza because it was the rather despised Guild of Morticians.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

American Economic System SOLD for Debt and War

Yes. Around 1912. The Great Reset is now taking place. The problem is, it has two faces (oh no, not another paradox):

1. The population of Earth will be reduced by 90%. The remaining 10% will perform labor for the 50 (21?) ricjest people. Private ownership of anything with be granted to the State.

... OR ...

2. The Federal Reserve will be abrogated. Now currencies will be issued, based on the Gold Standard.

You (anyone) will either get to choose, or will have nothing to say about it.

There are two solutions: (A) Suicide, or (B) Wu-wei.

 


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 
Posted by: @shiva

one should cultivate dogdom.

See also St. Iggy of Pop, "I Wanna Be Your Dog" <lyrics here>. Dogs are better than us.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2857
 
Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @shiva

one should cultivate dogdom.

See also St. Iggy of Pop, "I Wanna Be Your Dog" <lyrics here>. Dogs are better than us.

Great song.

Used well in one of Guy Ritchies films. Guy Ritchy? Richy? 


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @ignant666

Dogs are better than us.

Ooh-ooh baby, ooh-ooh-ee.
Baby don't you let your dog bite me.

(Fats Domino mantra)


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva 

I fail to understand why dogs are repeatedly singled/signaled out for derision and downcasting in AL.

Posted by: @ignant666

. Dogs are better than us.

I have a choice, do I bury my biscuit-bone under the carpet?  Do I drool when i see some female on heat and proceed to snarl at my sex-rivals?  Do I  piss on that territory and claim it and do I chase the postman down the street and do I beg and whine for tidbits and do I chase the cat and then corner it as it keeps it's cool and swipes my nose with it's sharpened claws?  Maybe I pause and have discernment instead. 

Are we talking all canine here?  Wolves, foxes and coyotes? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1822
 
Posted by: @dom

I have a choice,

Yeah you do there dere dom, as a human you can choose.  Whether to obey & comply with somebody higher up the pecking order in the pack, for example.

Posted by: @dom

do I bury [...] Do I drool [...] Do I piss [...] do I chase [...] do I beg and [...] do I chase the cat

But if you insist on giving free vent to your 'canine' nature and letting it take you over instead, things can get a bit more Pavlovian - if I chuck a stick at you, it's pretty much as a given you'll chase after & retrieve it & bring it back to me afterwards.  Whilst wagging your tail appreciatively behind you (if you have one which has not been docked, naturally).

Posted by: @dom

Are we talking all canine here?

We are talking questions (above) which can all be considered part of The Great Imponderables - ones like:.

"Just exactly how much is that doggie in the window?"

(Which doggie, what window, etc...),

Arf! Arf!

N Joy


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

I have a choice,

Yeah you do there dere dom, as a human you can choose.  Whether to obey & comply with somebody higher up the pecking order in the pack, for example.

Do animals really get a bad rap in Legis?  Hadit announces that He is "a snake of Knowledge and Delight".  The prince priest in chapter 1 is addressed as The Beast i.e. not an animal but the animal.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

Do animals really get a bad rap in Legis?

Not "animals." Just "dogs."


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1822
 
Posted by: @dom

Do animals really get a bad rap in Legis?

No they don't - has anyone suggested they did do, dom?  The only thing which could possibly come to mind is the injunction "Be not animal; refine thy rapture!" (II:70) however I see this not as a bad rap but an indicator to the magician/mystic that s/he needs to operate from the correct (=less gross) plane.  Also, nearly all of the Egyptian gods and goddesses were theriomorphic by nature, and we are all of the animal kingdom ourselves in which all animals are divine (no exceptions).

Posted by: @dom

The prince priest in chapter 1 is addressed as The Beast i.e. not an animal but the animal.  

Yes, like I said - the Beast as the divine animal. (Or id, even).

N Joy


dom liked
ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

Do animals really get a bad rap in Legis?

Not "animals." Just "dogs."

So you think when the term 'dog' is used in AL it refers to that domesticated branch of the canine family?  

Why would you think that? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

So you think when the term 'dog' is used in AL it refers to that domesticated branch of the canine family?  

Why would you think that? 

It is difficult, isn't it? 

"

19. Is a God to live in a dog?"

"27. There is great danger in me; ... he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."

"33. Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!"

"45. There is death for the dogs."

That's a considerable number of "dog" references. Most of them are negative, unfortunate, or inauspicious. There may be other meanings for the word "dog," but yes I associate the term with canines. Why would I think of other variants?

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

So you think when the term 'dog' is used in AL it refers to that domesticated branch of the canine family?  

Why would you think that? 

It is difficult, isn't it? 

"

19. Is a God to live in a dog?"

"27. There is great danger in me; ... he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."

"33. Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!"

"45. There is death for the dogs."

That's a considerable number of "dog" references. Most of them are negative, unfortunate, or inauspicious. There may be other meanings for the word "dog," but yes I associate the term with canines. Why would I think of other variants?

 

Because the variant has been around for centuries and it was used particularly in the Shakespearean era.  Seeing as AL is written in that Olde English style I'd say that the term may have nothing to do with man's best friend but actually means "a sleazy man" i.e it's a derogatory term.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

AC was a dog person in the sense of being a dog owner, during his life. As the author of his book titled The Book of the Law, he plays around with the use of letters in words: 

(BOTL I:36.) "My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; ..."., (BOTL I:54. "Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.", (BOTL II:54.) "... The stops as thou wilt; the letters? change them not in style or value!", (BOTL III:47.)"... for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine. Let him not seek to try: but one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of it all. ...".

AC authored The Book of the Law in such a way that it should appear to replace Christianity (and all other creeds), and he was extremely familiar with the Christian Bible where the book title Book of the Law is also used.  

The Christian Bible originated witin a culture where dogs were considered to be unclean animals:

Revelation 22:15: “For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” Philippians 3:2: “Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.” Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog returneth to his vomit, [so] a fool returneth to his folly.”

AC was already from 1898 (seven years before he authored his The Book of the Law in 1904) familiar with Qabalah, and within Qabalah there is a method called ThShRQ (Thashraq), which is simply writing words backwards. (The title of AC's book called THISHARBA by him, is an example of him using the Thashraq method, as its title is simply his transliteration of Bereshith reversed. [Bereshit or Bereishith is the first word of the Torah, translated as "In the beginning..."[.] (Source: Bereshit From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereshit )].)

It is for this reason that the "prophet" (Crowley) in The Book of the Law that he authored, in verse 76. of the second chapter, is instructed to tell this "glad word" to men, which in Liber AL is the Hebrew word LA (Not)—the Thashraq of AL (God).

My point is that AC's exoteric use of words like God, Gods, gods, dogs, and dog, in his The Book of the Law, pertains more to him as the author of this book providing clever and playful hints to his esoteric use of the Thashraq method within it, than it pertains to AC expressing his dislike of dogs as an animal species.


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 

wrwb: Are you feeling entirely OK today?

You have posted something that is clear, intelligible, and makes an actual contribution to the discussion.The majority of words are original thoughts from you, and only a small portion is quotations.

This is very unlike you, and i am frankly worried for you.


ReplyQuote
Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1822
 
Posted by: @dom

Seeing as AL is written in that Olde English style I'd say that the term [dog] may have nothing to do with man's best friend but actually means "a sleazy man" i.e it's a derogatory term.

In that case, a sleazy but nevertheless a "reasonable" man...

N Joy


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

the term may have nothing to do with man's best friend but actually means "a sleazy man" i.e it's a derogatory term.

Well, yes, of course. That does seem to be its meaning (a sleazy human) - one who thinks too much.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The Christian Bible originated witin a culture where dogs were considered to be unclean animals

"You dirty dog, you!"

 

 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

(Bold added by me for emphasis:)

 

(Revelation 2:7[:]) "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God."

(Revelation 2:26[:]) "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations."

(Revelation 3:20-22[:]) "20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

"The Cry of the 9th Aethyr, [...] Open wide your gates, O City of God, for I bring No-one with me. Sink your swords and your spears in salutation, for the Mother and the Babe are my companions. Let the banquet be prepared in the palace of the King's daughter. Let the lights be kindled; Are not we the children of the light?"

"The Cry of the 1st Aethyr, [...] And they [who are against you] shall be brought unto subjection unto thee, and serve thee, though thou willest it not. And it shall be unto them a grace and a sacrament, and ye shall all sit down together at the supernal banquet, and ye shall feast upon the honey of the gods, and be drunk upon the dew of immortality --- [...]

Pass thou on, therefore, O thou Prophet of the Gods, unto the Cubical Altar of the Universe; there shalt thou receive every tribe and kingdom and nation into the mighty Order that reacheth from the frontier fortresses that guard the Uttermost Abyss unto My Throne."

 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

(Sorry for chainposting.) (Bold added by me for emphasis:)

 

Also, with respect to AC's favorite book in the Christian Bible (= Revelation), and his book The Vision and the Voice (Liber 418), that he in chapter 66 of his "autohagiography" Confessions describes as "... being [...] only second in importance [...] to ..." the most important book of his Thelema:

 

(King James Bible, Revelation (7:9-10. [:]) "... 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. ..."

(The Vision and the Voice, The Cry of the 1st Aethyr, ..." : ) "Pass thou on, therefore, O thou Prophet of the Gods, unto the Cubical Altar of the Universe; there shalt thou receive every tribe and kingdom and nation into the mighty Order that reacheth from the frontier fortresses that guard the Uttermost Abyss unto My Throne."

 

(First endnote to "The Cry of the 3rd Aethyr, ..." in Aleister Crowley's Book 418 : ) 

"[1] The last three Aethyrs [= 3rd Aethyr, 2nd Aethyr, and 1st Aethyr] are so tremendously sublime that comment is only too likely to mar the effect upon the reader. They must be read as masterpieces of Art, and their full magical import apprehended as such. This remark, indeed applies to the whole series, though not so formidably. The proper way is first to study the book in detail, so as to assimilate perfectly its intellectual content, and then to read it (so to say) ceremonially. [...]"

 


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(Bold added by me for emphasis:)

 

(Revelation 2:7[:]) "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God."

(Revelation 2:26[:]) "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations."

(Revelation 3:20-22[:]) "20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

"The Cry of the 9th Aethyr, [...] Open wide your gates, O City of God, for I bring No-one with me. Sink your swords and your spears in salutation, for the Mother and the Babe are my companions. Let the banquet be prepared in the palace of the King's daughter. Let the lights be kindled; Are not we the children of the light?"

"The Cry of the 1st Aethyr, [...] And they [who are against you] shall be brought unto subjection unto thee, and serve thee, though thou willest it not. And it shall be unto them a grace and a sacrament, and ye shall all sit down together at the supernal banquet, and ye shall feast upon the honey of the gods, and be drunk upon the dew of immortality --- [...]

Pass thou on, therefore, O thou Prophet of the Gods, unto the Cubical Altar of the Universe; there shalt thou receive every tribe and kingdom and nation into the mighty Order that reacheth from the frontier fortresses that guard the Uttermost Abyss unto My Throne."

 

I don't get it.  No reference to what anyone said and just out of the blue long quotes about....who knows?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(Bold added by me for emphasis:)

 

(Revelation 2:7[:]) "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God."

(Revelation 2:26[:]) "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations."

(Revelation 3:20-22[:]) "20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

"The Cry of the 9th Aethyr, [...] Open wide your gates, O City of God, for I bring No-one with me. Sink your swords and your spears in salutation, for the Mother and the Babe are my companions. Let the banquet be prepared in the palace of the King's daughter. Let the lights be kindled; Are not we the children of the light?"

"The Cry of the 1st Aethyr, [...] And they [who are against you] shall be brought unto subjection unto thee, and serve thee, though thou willest it not. And it shall be unto them a grace and a sacrament, and ye shall all sit down together at the supernal banquet, and ye shall feast upon the honey of the gods, and be drunk upon the dew of immortality --- [...]

Pass thou on, therefore, O thou Prophet of the Gods, unto the Cubical Altar of the Universe; there shalt thou receive every tribe and kingdom and nation into the mighty Order that reacheth from the frontier fortresses that guard the Uttermost Abyss unto My Throne."

 

I don't get it.  No reference to what anyone said and just out of the blue long quotes about....who knows?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 
Posted by: @dom

No reference to what anyone said and just out of the blue long quotes about....who knows?  

But you are describing every post wrwb has ever made and every post he will ever make- why do these particular instances of his general posting-pattern bother you?

It is like asking why a dog chases a cat, or a cat chases a mouse. They do these things because it is their nature to do so.

{Granted, it is pretty likely wrwb thought he was posting in a different thread, but even if these posts appeared in the "Crowley and his discrepancies" thread, your complaint would be equally valid, and equally pointless}


dom liked
ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

But you are describing every post wrwb has ever made and every post he will ever make- why do these particular instances of his general posting-pattern bother you?

It is like asking why a dog chases a cat, or a cat chases a mouse. They do these things because it is their nature to do so.

{Granted, it is pretty likely wrwb thought he was posting in a different thread, but even if these posts appeared in the "Crowley and his discrepancies" thread, your complaint would be equally valid, and equally pointless}

So no one has ever had a normal question and answer logical-conversation with him on this forum?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

But you are describing every post wrwb has ever made and every post he will ever make- why do these particular instances of his general posting-pattern bother you?

It is like asking why a dog chases a cat, or a cat chases a mouse. They do these things because it is their nature to do so.

{Granted, it is pretty likely wrwb thought he was posting in a different thread, but even if these posts appeared in the "Crowley and his discrepancies" thread, your complaint would be equally valid, and equally pointless}

So no one has ever had a normal question and answer logical-conversation with him on this forum?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 

He was almost lucid in a recent post, and i commented on it, but that is the only time i can remember in 9 years* of his posts.

This is his Way, without "lust of result", coherence, or interaction with others.

------

*Or more years- i think he had an earlier persona, with the same name, but with slightly different orthography- spaces between the words maybe?


dom liked
ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3566
 

Lest i be berated for "short-term memory loss", here is a link to wrwb's recent actually comprehensible, coherent, and useful post, which was in this very thread:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/115003/

But everybody has their off days after all, and he is now back in normal form, posting long pointless strings of quotes.


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

Lest i be berated for "short-term memory loss", here is a link to wrwb's recent actually comprehensible, coherent, and useful post, which was in this very thread:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/115003/

But everybody has their off days after all, and he is now back in normal form, posting long pointless strings of quotes.

 

There's a disconnection goin' on.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @ignant666

Lest i be berated for "short-term memory loss", here is a link to wrwb's recent actually comprehensible, coherent, and useful post, which was in this very thread:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/115003/

But everybody has their off days after all, and he is now back in normal form, posting long pointless strings of quotes.

 

There's a disconnection goin' on.  It's pointless me asking his occupation but I'm guessing it's not in the communications industry.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @dom

There's a disconnection goin' on.

But Bred has an agenda. He seems to think AC wrote up some, or all, of his Liber AL and his philosophy around 1900, instead of 1904. Some other people seem to agree. AC diaries, produced by WellRead, show an interest in Horus and all manner of things Thelemic, or at least pre-Thelemic.

His other post involve Scientology, and various assortments of people, who are quoted as saying things that don't always relate to the topic, and we try to find out "What's your point?" but get no clear response, correlation. or just relation.


ReplyQuote
dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 3003
Topic starter  
Posted by: @shiva

 

But Bred has an agenda. He seems to think AC wrote up some, or all, of his Liber AL and his philosophy around 1900, instead of 1904. Some other people seem to agree. AC diaries, produced by WellRead, show an interest in Horus and all manner of things Thelemic, or at least pre-Thelemic.

His other post involve Scientology, and various assortments of people, who are quoted as saying things that don't always relate to the topic, and we try to find out "What's your point?" but get no clear response, correlation. or just relation.

The agenda would be more effective if the communication was clear. Hey, geddit?  Clear haha.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1796
 

Well I was thinking that the read bred was just a random serial cut and paster bot, group sourcing the Beta testing and debugging of the single pass to a Multi-pass compiler in order to process its conception of the human Deific form for its upgrade.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1129
 

(Bold added by me to quoted text[-s], for the sake of clarity:)

Compatibility between teachings within (the huge tent of) Christianity and teachings within (the tiny tent of) Aleister Crowley's Thelema:

"... the Thelemites are free not to follow their own self-love, but to be at the service of each other. [...] The ideal of the Thelemites [...] represent a reaction against the legalism and the formalism which prevailed in many monasteries of that day and, indeed, in Christian life and thought [...] [and] [...] combine[-s] the concept of love with the liberty of service of the neighbor." (Source: ALEXANDER T. POCETTO, O.S.F.S., PH.D. Senior Salesian Scholar Rabelais, Francis de Sales and the Abbaye de Thélème published in the Indian Journal of Spirituality Volume XVII, No. 3 (July-September 2004), pages 211-222 - - - http://hosted.desales.edu/files/salesian/PDF/PocettoRabelais.pdf )

"Authority and prestige in the Order are absolute, but while the lower grades give increase of privilege, the higher give increase of service. Power in the Order depends, therefore, directly on the willingness to aid others. Tolerance also is taught in the higher grades; so that no man can be even an Inspector of the Order unless he be equally well disposed to all classes of opinion." (Source: Aleister Crowley's Liber CLXI (Book 161) Concerning the Law of Thelema. Appearing in The Equinox III (1) (Detroit, 1919).)

"... with us Government is Service, and nothing else." (Source: Aleister Crowley's Liber CXCIV (Book 194) – An intimation with reference to the Constitution of the Order - - - https://oto-ro.org/en/libri/liber-cxciv-an-intimation-with-reference-to-the-constitution-of-the-order/ (Also appearing in The Equinox III (1) (Detroit, 1919) immediately after Liber CLXI (Book 161) Concerning the Law of Thelema.) )


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1796
 

"Compatibility between teachings within (the huge tent of) Christianity and teachings within (the tiny tent of) Aleister Crowley's Thelema:"

Crowley re awakened and re introduced the vital fecund principle;
which the cover of the Patriarchal Osirian abrahamic Aeon,
with its inherent sin, and system of imparting, anointing, and conferring, which do not depend upon the holiness of the neutered impaired priests who perform them; and exclusion of women from priestly ordination; sought to stamp the sex positive unruly female out of the human condition.

Asherah, Ishtar, Eostre, Kore, Inanna, Lilītu, etc got re introduced as a sexless mary.

Her names are innumerable the abundance of manifestations and plethora of names by which she can be contacted and her numinous ineffability will continue to give rise.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5854
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"... with us Government is Service, and nothing else."

If only this were true of the govs everywhere.

 


ReplyQuote
Page 15 / 16
Share: