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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

Did you ever meet U.G.?

Nope. Missed him. And I was living in California when he was there. But I had not heard of him. I was introduced to his work via an email attachment from Azidonis, under the subject title "The Ipsissimus."

Posted by: @gurugeorge

one could say you've got a clearer glimpse of the sky through the overcast at each grade

I would, and will, say that this is a good description.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Um, ["Destroyer of Illusions"] that's my namesake and cover. I believe the phrase is (c) or TM, but we all know it's old enough to have been transferred to the public domain."

 

In a Class A statement in his The Vision & The Voice, it is stated that "... the mark of the Beast spoken of in the Apocalypse [in the Christian Bible], [...] is the sign of initiation.", and in an endnote to this Class A statement, Aleister Crowley provides the following explanation:

"This is the "Third Eye", the "Eye of Shiva" [...]." 

I find it interesting that AC wihin the second most important book of his Thelema, understands "the mark of the Beast", as the "Eye of Shiva", that is, as the "Eye" of the "Destroyer of Illusions".

 

A compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema, is that as the meaning of the Bible is revealed through Christ within Christianity, the meaning of the Bible is also reavealed through AC within the latter's Thelema, as demonstrated by the examples below: 

 

[Bible, King James Version, John 5]]
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 

[Bible, King James Version, John 5:45, 46 and 47[:]]
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47. But if ye believe not his
writings, yhow shall ye believe my words?

 

[The Vision & The Voice, The Cry of the 12th Aethyr[...]:]
"And this is the meaning of the Supper of the Passover, the spilling of the blood of the Lamb being a ritual of the Dark Brothers, for they have sealed up the Pylon with blood, lest the Angel of Death should enter therein. Thus do they shut themselves off from the company of the saints. Thus do they keep themselves from compassion and from understanding. Accurséd are they, for they shut up their blood in their heart."

 

[The Vision & The Voice, The Cry of the 2nd Aethyr[...]:]
"In the first place, there is again the woman riding on the bull, which is the reflection of BABALON, that rideth on The Beast. And also there is an Assyrian legend of a woman with a fish, and also there is a legend of Eve and the Serpent, for Cain was the the child of Eve and the Serpent, and not of Eve and Adam; and therefore when he had slain his brother, who was the first murderer, having sacrificed living things to his demon, had Cain the mark upon his brow, which is the mark of the Beast spoken of in the Apocalypse, and is the sign of initiation.

The shedding of blood is necessary, for God did not hear the children of Eve until blood was shed. And that is external religion; but Cain spake not with God, nor had the mark of initiation upon his brow, so that he was shunned by all men, until he had shed blood. And this blood was the blood of his brother. This is a mystery of the
sixth key of the Taro, which ought not to be called The Lovers, but The Brothers.

In the middle of the card stands Cain; in his right hand is the Hammer of Thor with which he hath slain his brother, and it is all wet with his blood. And his left hand he holdeth open as a sign of innocence. And on his right hand is his mother Eve, around whom the serpent is entwined with his hood spread behind her head; and on his left hand is a figure somewhat like the Hindoo Kali, but much more seductive. Yet I know it to be Lilith. And above him is the Great Sigil of the Arrow, downward, but it is struck through the heart of the child. This Child is also Abel. And the meaning of this part of the card is obscure, but that is the correct drawing of the Taro card; and that is the correct magical fable from which the Hebrew scribes, who were not complete Initiates, stole their legend of the Fall and the subsequent events. They joined different fables together to try and make a connected story, and they sophisticated them to suit their social and political conditions."

"How do I reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god'?", as stated by David Dom Lemieux at the beginning of this thread.

I reconcile this compatibility as being caused by a need within Christianity to make the so called Old Testament part of the their Bible be about their Messiah Jesus Christ, and a need within AC's Thelema, for it to represent the for "complete Initiates", correct interpretation of the Christian Bible.


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @shiva

 Auric fields can be seen in photos.

Why do I suspect mine would appear as a black hole?  😉 

 

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Questions to Katrice:

 

You've had a few of those lately.  

Do you know Katrice, if the word "exorcist" is also used  with a positive, beneficial of pro-Satanic interpretation within Satanism?

 

And, do you know Katrice, if exorcism is practiced by Satanists?

 

 

Satanism isn't really a unified belief system, and not all LHP practitioners are Satanists, I'm certainly not, for example. There are the Immanent and the Transcendent branches, there are Theistic Satanists, etc.  There's a lot of variation. 

 

But that is an interesting question!   

 

It's not a commonly-used term, but some practitioners of evocation who follow the classic grimoires, like  the Grand Grimoire, the Grimorum Verum, and the Constitution of Honorius, have used the term in the sense that those books use it, similar to what you said earlier in the thread

Demons or devils being subject to them because of the name of Jesus Christ, having the power or authority [...] over all the power of the enemy, being protected so that nothing shall by ant means hurt them, and the spirits being subject unto them 

but not in the name of Jesus of course.  Depending on the tradition, it would be the individual's power-"Myself" as Shiva said, or the daimon's or Black Flame's, which is ultimately the same thing on a different level, but Immanents and Theistics may not all agree on that. 

Also remember that the Bornless Ritual, or Stele of Jeu, used in Liber Samekh but also as the preliminary invocation in Goetia, is classified as an exorcism. 

 

“Make all Spirits subject to Me so that every Spirit of the Firmament, the Ether, Earth and under the Earth, dry Land, or Water, Air, Fire, and every Spell and Scourge of God may be obedient unto Me!"

 

 


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Posted by: @katrice

Why do I suspect mine would appear as a black hole?

Um, this is very complex and easy to misunderstand. There are several (7) concentric fields. The outermost, about 17' out from the body, tells us where one is "coming from." Everybody comes from the same source, but their primary configuration varies.

One of the configurations is that of The Black Sun, which is pretty far fornication out. I am blessed with this configuration. I can't see it in you at this distance without a link (photo), but from your general responses over the past few months, I'd say, "Yeah."

I have not examined the difference between a Black Hole and The Black Sun, but I suspect they are the same. Now, this is the 4th or 5th time I've posted this link, a couple times by request (because the requester couldn't find it again). So i did the long journey (again) and found it (again). The subject matter is interesting, the page is not terribly long, and down towards the bottom, you'll find ...

1. A brief description of my aura (very brief, but pertinent to our [off-topic] discussion), and why you might qualify. Check it out. It's one of my own very favorites webpages, and I have decided to bookmark it to save searchin' ... searchin'.

Go here: See the greatest sideshow of our times. Some of these people are still with us ...

Blazing Diamond - Auras

Then return to Christian-inanity & Thelema.

Posted by: @katrice

but not in the name of Jesus of course.

I think I read somewhere that a (Thelemite) magician should invoke somebody before evoking any spirit/demon. The obvious choice is Liber Israfel (The Invocation of Thoth), but others will do. Before evoking the Abramelin spirits, one is first expected to have contacted the HGA. 

Any magician who evokes spirits without [gasp] invoking some "higher" force first, is termed (in Thelemic parlance lingo) a sorceror - AC's definition. Other traditions us the sorc term to mean other things.

Posted by: @katrice

“Make all Spirits subject to Me so that every Spirit of the Firmament, the Ether, Earth and under the Earth, dry Land, or Water, Air, Fire, and every Spell and Scourge of God may be obedient unto Me!"

This is a direct quote from Liber Israfel (courtesy of Allan Bennett).

 


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @shiva

One of the configurations is that of The Black Sun, which is pretty far fornication out. I am blessed with this configuration. I can't see it in you at this distance without a link (photo), but from your general responses over the past few months, I'd say, "Yeah."

Um, I was just making a little joke, but ok, this is interesting.

 

And you know I do have a pic of me as my profile pic.

Interesting.  I do have an affinity for the Black Sun.  In the alchemical, Sol Niger, sense, NOT in the sonnenrad sense.

 

Go here: See the greatest sideshow of our times. Some of these people are still with us ...

Hmmm, very interesting.  Something to unpack there.  Thank you!

I think I read somewhere that a (Thelemite) magician should invoke somebody before evoking any spirit/demon. 

 

Indeed, hence my mention of the Bornless as the preliminary invocation of the Goetia.

 

Before evoking the Abramelin spirits, one is first expected to have contacted the HGA. 

 

That is the nature of the operation.

 

Any magician who evokes spirits without [gasp] invoking some "higher" force first, is termed (in Thelemic parlance lingo) a sorceror  

Oooooo scary-scary!  

 

This is a direct quote from Liber Israfel (courtesy of Allan Bennett).

 

I was actually quoting the Bornless/Stele of Jeu, which is the original source. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I was just making a little joke

This is no joke. Trad the referenced webpage and weep. This is not a really rare config, but it's not common, either.

Posted by: @katrice

I was actually quoting the Bornless/Stele of Jeu, which is the original source.

Aha - I never knew the source(s) of Bennett's Invocation of Tahuti, except to be state that he wrote it based on the Egyptian Books [papyri, stelae) of the Dead. 


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @shiva

This is no joke. Trad the referenced webpage and weep. This is not a really rare config, but it's not common, either.

I did read the page you sent, and found it interesting.  I'm not sure why I should weep, though. 😉 

Your knowledge of auras exceeds mine, what would you say would be the implications of this?

 

Aha - I never knew the source(s) of Bennett's Invocation of Tahuti, except to be state that he wrote it based on the Egyptian Books [papyri, stelae) of the Dead. 

That surprises me as it's also the basis for Liber Samekh.  It's from the PGM, and dates back to Dositheus's school.

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I'm not sure why I should weep, though.

It's the burden of bearing the black load. Nobody understands you unless their load is similar - there are other colors, depending on one's task.

Any color at all - in the outermost band 
indicates a Stranger - in a Strange Land.

Posted by: @katrice

the implications of this?

It says so in the scripture - black means the person is here to teach "higher consciousness." If, for example a person showed green, their job would be to teach "love."

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

It's the burden of bearing the black load. Nobody understands you unless their load is similar - 

An occupational hazard of initiatory work in general, I'd say, but in this case a more specialized part of it.

It says so in the scripture - black means the person is here to teach "higher consciousness." 

Interesting.  I am a firm believer in the idea of the magician as a transmitter of the current in the world, as well as the idea of helping others on their paths whenever possible. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

helping others on their paths whenever possible. 

Right. You keep your sanity by always making them ask (first). Rolling up our sleeves (and our pant-legs or skirt hems, because it'll be poopy oput there) and going out there to "help" folks via evangelism isn't the answer (for me).

But evangelism is a primarly quality of Christianity, which allows us to return to the subject of this thread.

Christianity (less type it "X" for crucifixion) is full of LOVE. Thelema is based on WILL. X seems to involve Evangelism (but so does Islam - both can get really pushy about converting). Thelema, by AL instructon, is low-key (give 'em the booklet - make them ask). I become amused and make depreciating comments when self-identified or formally-initiated Thelemites get on the evangelical hobby horse.

Oh, Thelemites have the Love-Will thing figured out. AC was able to ex-pound that into even thick skulls: Love IS the Law - under Will. So AL, AC, and Mr White all came to the same conclusion - WILL (right action) comes first. I think the Buddha said the same thing. Okay - we're set on that point.

However (there's always a butt), in relation to that outermost zone of the energy field, we also see some folks with a green background. They are also Strangers, but if you ask them, they will tell you that LOVE is the core key. Interestingly, according to the scripture, they are here to teach "Love," not "higher consciousness" (Will) like the black backgrounded folks.

 So we might think, Christians have green, and Thelemites have black ... but it is not so. The colors may appear in any culture or school of thought. It is easier to say that the blacks come (into our solar system) via Pluto, while the greens use Venus. This is a stated definition, not an idle humor. I don't particularly employ that one.

The point is, there are two different approaches circulating. We know about the one that places Love under Will. But there is  that other perspective, and the greenies will argue (to the death) about how Love trumps all.


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Right. You keep your sanity by always making them ask (first). Rolling up our sleeves (and our pant-legs or skirt hems, because it'll be poopy oput there) and going out there to "help" folks via evangelism isn't the answer (for me).

Completely agreed. 

Christianity (less type it "X" for crucifixion)

The X in "xianity" stands for the Greek letter Chi, so it's not far off

 

Thelema, by AL instructon, is low-key (give 'em the booklet - make them ask). I become amused and make depreciating comments when self-identified or formally-initiated Thelemites get on the evangelical hobby horse.

Then we have folks like the Temple of Set, who tend to actually discourage people from joining.

 

 Interestingly, according to the scripture, they are here to teach "Love," not "higher consciousness" (Will) like the black backgrounded folks.

The two are of course complementary, neglecting one would be detrimental to the other.

 

The point is, there are two different approaches circulating. We know about the one that places Love under Will. But there is  that other perspective, and the greenies will argue (to the death) about how Love trumps all.

Or as another significant magician said: “Will reigns Omnipotent; Love lieth at the Foundation.”

 

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @katrice

Or as another significant magician said: “Will reigns Omnipotent; Love lieth at the Foundation."

And where might this significant quote be found?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

who tend to actually discourage people from joining.

"It is wise to destroy this book after the first reading."

Posted by: @katrice

The two are of course complementary

The two (pretty much) recognize each other (each other's source) and get along quite well. But they also know there's a slight different in their, um, perspectices.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

And where might this significant quote be found?

PB Randolph, in The Mysteries of Eulis, written in 1874. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

"It is wise to destroy this book after the first reading."

Perhaps, though it's also about wanting quality over quantity.  

 

Posted by: @shiva

The two (pretty much) recognize each other (each other's source) and get along quite well. But they also know there's a slight different in their, um, perspectices.

Agreed as well, and there's room enough for both. Early on I think I focused much more on one over the other but I'm working more on balance now. 

 

 


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gurugeorge
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I'm too lazy to look back up-thread so this has probably been said already, but as I understand it, Christianity is already absorbed into our system as the whole thing up to Adeptus Minor.  (This also goes to the discussion in the other thread about the rituals of the old time, etc.)

Which kind of means that the "tree" has "expanded" in a sense.  Formerly Christianity would have encompassed the whole tree, but now there's more tree, and Christianity only reaches up so high, relatively speaking.  It's a lesson that's been learned and is incorporated, and we now have bigger fish to fry.


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hadgigegenraum
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@katrice

Thanks, while I did not expect Beverly Pascal Randolph to be the originator of that quote Will reigns Omnipotent; Love lieth at the Foundation” at the same I am not surprised! Such a quote of course does provide a perspective, outside and prior to AC, relative to "Love is the law, love under will."

Relative to this thread, I note that there is a church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, USA, which I visited a long time ago called the Church of Illumination which as the link shows is connected with Swinburne Clymer's Fraternitas Rosae Crusis which claims its teachings back to B.P. Randolph...whose books they publish...the chapel and grounds are quite nice...and quite!

https://www.soul.org/church-of-illumination

https://churchofillumination.org/

The tenets of that church are worth reviewing and I will note this link relative to everyone's favorite subject, the sacredness of sex, that starts with a quote from Randolph.

https://www.soul.org/teachings/tenent-sex

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@katrice

Thanks, while I did not expect Beverly Pascal Randolph to be the originator of that quote Will reigns Omnipotent; Love lieth at the Foundation” at the same I am not surprised! Such a quote of course does provide a perspective, outside and prior to AC, relative to "Love is the law, love under will."

Indeed it does!    And Randolph was also Crowley's predecessor in sex and drugs magick too.  😉 

 

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

whose books they publish.

 

Which were originally distributed by Maria de Naglowska.

The tenets of that church are worth reviewing and I will note this link relative to everyone's favorite subject, the sacredness of sex, that starts with a quote from Randolph.

And he's mentioned a few more times on that page.  Thank for the sharing that link!  Very interesting!  

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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David Dom Lemieux [In first post of this thread]:

"Do you see any compatibility between the teachings of Christ and Thelema? If so where and how? Furthermore if so how do you reconcile this considering that this is not the aeon of 'the dying god?'"

Yes, I see a compatibility between the teachings of Christ referring to him as "the light of the world." (source: John 8:12), and the Thelema of AC, where the latter in "An Account of A∴A∴" clearly interprets on "V.V.V.V.V." as the Messiah: 

"This society is in the communion of those who have most capacity for light; they are united in truth, and their Chief is the Light of the World himself, V.V.V.V.V., the One Anointed in Light, the single teacher for the human race, the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

AC stating that the chief of A∴A∴ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life.", is a compatibility with the teachings of Christ referring to him describing himself as "I am the way and the truth and the life." (Source: John 14:6)

 

The mentioned compatibilities between the teachings of Christ and AC's Thelema, is reconciled by the latter's Thelema being an evolution or a reformation of the law of God represented by the Christian Bible.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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One you missed: AC says "V.V.V.V.V."  [aka AC] "is the Light of the World himself".

His source for this image being John 8:12 :

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Topic starter  
Posted by: @gurugeorge

I'm too lazy to look back up-thread so this has probably been said already, but as I understand it, Christianity is already absorbed into our system as the whole thing up to Adeptus Minor.  (This also goes to the discussion in the other thread about the rituals of the old time, etc.)

Which kind of means that the "tree" has "expanded" in a sense.  Formerly Christianity would have encompassed the whole tree, but now there's more tree, and Christianity only reaches up so high, relatively speaking.  It's a lesson that's been learned and is incorporated, and we now have bigger fish to fry.

Maybe Dali 'got this' when he did his painting of Christ?

 

image

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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fraterihsan
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Posted by: @ignant666

One you missed: AC says "V.V.V.V.V."  [aka AC] "is the Light of the World himself".

His source for this image being John 8:12 :

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world

 

Also the Qur'an, Surah 5

"O People of the Book! Certainly Our Apostle has come to you, clarifying for you much of what you used to hide of the Book, and excusing many [an offense of yours]. Certainly there has come to you a light from Allah, and a manifest Book."

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62


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Shiva
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Connecting the dots just a tad further ... The Light of The World is also known as Lucifer, "the Light Bringer." see also: Demiurge.


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christibrany
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@shiva 

 

Jesus was a fallen angel! 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @christibrany

Jesus was a fallen angel!

And so are you!

Count me in there, too.


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