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herupakraath
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Posted by: @dom

Parson's hatred for Christianity appears to be juvenile. 

There is nothing juvenile about treating a doctrine that is overtly oppressive to human nature as poison.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @dom

Parson's hatred for Christianity appears to be juvenile. 

There is nothing juvenile about treating a doctrine that is overtly oppressive to human nature as poison.

You entered the thread quite late eh?

 

From what I can gather, Parsons,(although exceptional in thinking  outside of the box with regards to practical chemistry) was an idiot.   Crowley's instincts about him were right in my opinion. 

 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The Living Christ, on the other hand, is an immanent spiritual verity. This may be an analog to a State of Consciousness and Illumination which APPEARS as an Individuality at certain stages of our spiritual elevation and development.

Or, it could just be a matter of modern minds projecting their spiritual fantasies into the pages of a collection of ancient folktales written by anonymous simpletons that lived on the other side of the planet thousands of years ago.


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

I am sorry you had such a bad experience with Christianity. For me, it has been very freeing. I am free from guilt and shame.

I can only assume that you fail to realize that it was the Christian doctrine and its advocates that instilled guilt and shame in you to begin with. Your treatment of Christianity takes on the form of Stockholm Syndrome.


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Tiger
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“ I have been told that the reason I didn’t believe a church’s particular doctrine was that I wasn’t studying prayerfully enough. I have sent Jehovah’s Witnesses scurrying from the house shaking the dust off their feet as they went. I have tried church after church, only to be disappointed again and again. “

On occasion a sheep dreaming wakes up from the trance and a goat rises.


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @dom
Presumably this happens in Judaism and in Islam even outside of Sufism. 

I suspect that the Old Testament prophets had attained to something fairly exalted. Moses saw God in a burning bramble thicket, and later saw him again on Mt. Sinai. These OT guys though all seem to view God through their cultural lenses. They all see the angry, thundering storm God revealed as the Creator. My belief is that they were partly correct, they indeed saw the creator but their mental furniture didn't allow a purer vision and they naturally clothed it in what they had available. We all do this, it just happens that their tribal totem was also a jealous and bloodthirsty god, really a projection of their tribal psyche. Compare the vision of Kali/durga in the Hindu pantheon.

The one stand out example though is Christ himself. His God was totally different, for him, not only did he perceive, as St John did, that God was/is love, but he went further and identified with God as both his father and he himself. Remember he was a Jew too, raised on the Septuagint and stories of that same OT God, yet unlike his forefathers he saw something other than the tyrannical tribal totem, his God was more universal, more catholic, encompassing the OT perception whilst also being far beyond it.

As one of my Aikido instructors sometimes says, any discipline is a good discipline, if you stick to it.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @pertinax

any discipline is a good discipline, if you stick to it.

BINGO! Give the man a cigar!

{totally OT agape: Happy Thanxgiving to all Americans, happy belated Thanxgiving to all the Canadians (even Mal/Xon and the Whores Make Hets guy), and general best wishes to all the other foreigners; have a foamy beverage! I will be busy cooking from here on in (having done the first round in the morning).}


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

There is nothing juvenile about treating a doctrine that is overtly oppressive to human nature as poison.

Who "created" which doctrine that was poison?

The juvenality, in any case or person, means "spiritually immature."

Posted by: @dom

From what I can gather, Parsons,(although exceptional in thinking  outside of the box with regards to practical chemistry) was an idiot.   Crowley's instincts about him were right in my opinion. 

Oh, him. He didn't "create" any doctrine. He took up the Crowley anti-Churchdom  banner and got all inflamed over it. He was another jump-claimer. He was a flash-in-the-pan magician who demonstrated little (or no) mystical maturity. He was a colorful character, but he was apparently not the Second Beast who would force everyone to follow the dictates of the First Beast. An 8=3 is devoted to Understanding, not overt Revolution.

Posted by: @tiger

“ I have been told that the reason I didn’t believe ..."

I may have missed something. Your quote is in "quote marks," who are you quoting? It is very hard to follow to dialogs and trilogs if everyone is making obscure references to other people who are not defined.

 


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

I have always been a seeker after truth. Truth matters. Once I found the truth, the results followed. I think it is backwards to say that results are what comes first.

Truth indeed matters, but it's not really the point from which we start. If, as a scientist, I decided what was true and then engineered my experiments to demonstrate my 'truth', I'd be laughed out of every academic institution on the planet.

In Thelema things are different, we start off with no preconceived idea, except the idea that it is indeed possible to find the truth. We then review what others have done, what they report, and what their results were (what effect it had on their lives). We then adopt a program of experimentation to see first off, what we are likely to be good at, then we try various things until we start getting results. Those results inform further experimentation and if we stick with it, further results. Truth, in my experience, is a moving goalpost, yesterdays truth is todays signpost, with tomorrows truth a speck on the horizon. The path goes on, it is impossible to arrive at the truth and then stop at that.

Posted by: @shiva

There's and old saying: Many people attain, not because of the Church, but in spite of it.

I would differentiate between Christianity (what he actually taught) and Christendom (the culture that grew out of the work of the apostles). Many Christians attain in spite of Christendom, by ignoring the tribalism, politics and other nonsense, whilst avoiding being burned at the stake by fanatics, and sticking to the program as given by Christ himself.


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Barbara
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Posted by: @pertinax

In Thelema things are different, we start off with no preconceived idea, except the idea that it is indeed possible to find the truth. We then review what others have done, what they report, and what their results were (what effect it had on their lives). We then adopt a program of experimentation to see first off, what we are likely to be good at, then we try various things until we start getting results. Those results inform further experimentation and if we stick with it, further results. Truth, in my experience, is a moving goalpost, yesterdays truth is todays signpost, with tomorrows truth a speck on the horizon. The path goes on, it is impossible to arrive at the truth and then stop at that.

I still maintain that truth matters first. Spirituality is not a scientific experiment, it is life or death. I see a fixed goalpost, around which all my life is centered. You see a goalpost that is always moving, never attainable. What results do you hope for? It seems like they are not fixed as well, but subject to whatever you might want at the time.

My goal was clear: to get out of the life I was living. I found the truth, then my life was altered. I have never been the same since, and never want to go back. I am a new creation. The world has nothing better to offer me.

Barbara

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Posted by:

 

The Living Christ, on the other hand, is an immanent spiritual verity. This may be an analog to a State of Consciousness and Illumination which APPEARS as an Individuality at certain stages of our spiritual elevation and development.

Or, it could just be a matter of modern minds projecting their spiritual fantasies into the pages of a collection of ancient folktales written by anonymous simpletons that lived on the other side of the planet thousands of years ago.

And how this would differ from Thelema's use of Eygpt's “ancient folktales” (replete with animal-headed gods, tales of life after death in a demon-infested underworld and a magic boat which passes across the sky)? 🙂


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

My goal was clear: to get out of the life I was living. I found the truth, then my life was altered. I have never been the same since, and never want to go back. I am a new creation. The world has nothing better to offer me.

Might I respectfully ask if you would consider that you found YOUR Truth and that Truth might manifest in a different manner for others?

 


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Barbara
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Posted by: kidney hawk

Might I respectfully ask if you would consider that you found YOUR Truth and that Truth might manifest in a different manner for others?

 

I don’t think it is so far fetched to believe in an absolute truth. For example, Thou shalt not kill is an absolute truth in nearly all cultures, as is Thou shall not commit adultery or Thou shalt not steal. Would you agree? I know it is a stretch to say that because of these commandments, the whole Bible is true. But, can you not admit that there just might be a creator God, who has created us, his people, to live a certain way?

Barbara


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Shiva
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Posted by: @pertinax

I decided what was true and then engineered my experiments to demonstrate my 'truth', I'd be laughed out of every ...

BafometR.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I still maintain that truth matters first.

Well, yes, but as stated, "Nobody knows the Truth in the first place.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Spirituality is not a scientific experiment, it is life or death.

I'm sorry, but you are citing 6th ray, devotional, abstract idealistic values. Thelema is a 7th ray system. It's motto is, "The Method of Science - the Aim of religion."

So, for you, it is not Science. For others, it is. You are in no position to define "spirituality" for others. If you would simply agree that there are other ways, than your way, we could all get along.

Yes, yes. it is "Life or Death," if you want to be melodramatic.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

You see a goalpost that is always moving, never attainable.

You fail to see a a goalpost that is ever-changing, but attainable in the moment, at any moment. The concept is a "changing reality." Things change. You continue to bring up opposite points of view to most subjects that are set out here. This is because the devotional approach is different from the scientific approach. Both are valid. One is more practical.

Again, all you have to do is admit that "In my Father's House, there are many Mansions," and we'll get along just fine. If you continue to say, "My Way is Beat for Me," we (most of us) will wish you godspeed. But if you say, "My Way is The Way, and your way is not correct," then you are narrow-minded, and I (at least) will have no further use in this discussion.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

What results do you hope for?

If one has "hopes" of a specific result, then the results will be twisted by confirmation bias, which is a minor sin around here.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Might I respectfully ask if you would consider that you found YOUR Truth and that Truth might manifest in a different manner for others?

Yes, you may ask such a thing. I have demanded it. It is a matter of the Life or Death of Shiva on this thread.

 

 


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Barbara
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@shiva,

Much as it sorrows me to bow out of Lashtal, I feel I must, since it is life or death for you on this thread. I believe in absolute truth, although I also believe that everyone sees it a little differently, because our life experiences are different, as are our thought processes.

I will leave you with one question. Why is Christianity the only creed that is so odious to you? I understand this because the last thing I wanted to be was a Christian, and it was the last thing. I would be dead but for God.

May God bless all of you and draw you to Himself.

With love and regrets,

Barbara

 


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kidneyhawk
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Barbara,

Do What Thou Wilt-but should it be to bow out, I'll certainly miss your contributions. I feel that this recently started thread still has a lot of mileage in it for everyone participating.

Please feel free to change your mind, though, and rejoin us. Dialogue and debate can be wonderful ways in which "iron strengthens iron" unto true edification of the Spirit.

And Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the Lashtal Gang!

Kyle

 


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

I still maintain that truth matters first. Spirituality is not a scientific experiment, it is life or death. I see a fixed goalpost, around which all my life is centered. You see a goalpost that is always moving, never attainable. What results do you hope for? It seems like they are not fixed as well, but subject to whatever you might want at the time.

My goal was clear: to get out of the life I was living. I found the truth, then my life was altered. I have never been the same since, and never want to go back. I am a new creation. The world has nothing better to offer me.

The core scientific method taught in the A.'.A.'., is summed up in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "But prove all things; hold fast that which is good." This is life or death for us because without testing we have no idea what is real and what is falsehood. Better a hard truth than a soft fantasy. 

One of the core dogmas of thelema is that Hadit, the indivisible point and consort of Nuit, is everywhere the centre "I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star. I am Life, and the giver of Life, yet therefore is the knowledge of me the knowledge of death". Liber 220, II:6, he is symbolised by the winged sun. This power of going was also sacred to the Egyptians, the ankh, a sandal strap as well as a fertility symbol and thus a sign of life itself, also gives a clue. The universe is in constant eternal motion, we are stars in the company of heaven. In Thelema there is an explicit identification of being with going, the noun is also the verb.

As for never attainable, I can do no better than to quote another Holy Book of Thelema: "Then the swan flew and dived and soared, yet no whither we went. A little crazy boy that rode with me spake unto the swan, and said: Who art thou that dost float and fly and dive and soar in the inane? Behold, these many æons have passed; whence camest thou? Whither wilt thou go? And laughing I chid him, saying: No whence! No whither! The swan being silent, he answered: Then, if with no goal, why this eternal journey? And I laid my head against the Head of the Swan, and laughed, saying: Is there not joy ineffable in this aimless winging? Is there not weariness and impatience for who would attain to some goal? And the swan was ever silent. Ah! but we floated in the infinite Abyss. Joy! Joy! White swan, bear thou ever me up between thy wings!" Liber 65 II:19-25

You see, we don't want to be forever saved in some final resting place. As some wit put it, "a ship in the harbour need never sink or be wrecked in a storm, but that is not what ships are for". This is life or death. Death is the eternal stasis of a permanent safe harbour, life is sailing on the eternal ocean, even at the risk of losing the corporeal body, which we have on loan in any case. Others might disagree, but to me this is the essence of what makes Thelema a life affirming spirituality.

God is not far away, on a cloud forever out of reach, God is here and now, every word, every breath, every act.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Might I respectfully ask if you would consider that you found YOUR Truth and that Truth might manifest in a different manner for others?

Precisely, todays truth is yesterdays falsehood. There is such a thing as a point of view.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I don’t think it is so far fetched to believe in an absolute truth.

There's a world of difference between believing such a thing and asserting that you have found it. Too many aspirants have settled for the first truth they came across and declared it 'The Truth', and civilizations have burned because of it.

Posted by: @shiva

You fail to see a a goalpost that is ever-changing, but attainable in the moment, at any moment. The concept is a "changing reality." Things change. You continue to bring up opposite points of view to most subjects that are set out here. This is because the devotional approach is different from the scientific approach. Both are valid. One is more practical.

Again, all you have to do is admit that "In my Father's House, there are many Mansions," and we'll get along just fine. If you continue to say, "My Way is Beat for Me," we (most of us) will wish you godspeed. But if you say, "My Way is The Way, and your way is not correct," then you are narrow-minded, and I (at least) will have no further use in this discussion.

This explains it very well I think, in Zen terms, this very moment is absolute reality. There are a large number of Christians who practice zen as part of their prayer life, I find that the two work just fine together and balance each other out nicely, largely because if the Christian claims to have discovered a truth, the zen practitioner is there with his stick "Thwack!"

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I will leave you with one question. Why is Christianity the only creed that is so odious to you? I understand this because the last thing I wanted to be was a Christian, and it was the last thing. I would be dead but for God.

I don't, I practice elements of Christianity, the Psalms and the Gospels in particular I go back to regularly, it's not odious at all. I am on good terms with the local parish priest and go to mass from time to time. Some elements of Christendom I find overly repressive but these are to me non-essentials, but those are little to do with the central message which I am wholly on board with, nor the spiritual reality of it, which I wouldn't dream of forcing on others. Others here have also been at pains to demonstrate that it isn't Christianity per-se that they hate.

It seems, on the whole, that you do get it, really, such as here:

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I believe in absolute truth, although I also believe that everyone sees it a little differently, because our life experiences are different, as are our thought processes.

This is exactly the point. As I've already said, there's a world of difference between 1) believing in absolute truth, and 2) believing that your truth is 'the' absolute truth, and everybody else is wrong. If you are for number 1, then you will get along just fine. If you are for number 2 however, then you will continue to bump heads and see conflict. I'm as yet undecided about whether you are in fact deliberately seeking it out.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

With love and regrets,

Pity not the fallen.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I will leave you with one question. Why is Christianity the only creed that is so odious to you?

Odious?

Odius

adjective

deserving or causing hatred; hateful; detestable.
highly offensive; repugnant; disgusting.
 
You see how it goes?  We, including myself, have gone way out of the way to point out that Christianity is a valid path, but there are others. I even quoted Jesus himself: In my Father's house there are many mansions. Maybe that's why he got crucified?
 
But our, at least my, opinion cannot stand the heat of Absolute Truth.
 
I don't need to re-read all my posts in this thread to know that I have not uttered or typed one odious comment. From the very beginning, Barbara has insisted that her insight is Absolute Truth. Yep, she found it. Give it a few more years and she's likely to be disappointed.
 
She admits that people see things differently. Duh!
 
Anyway, she's gone, and I'm still here. Anyone may file Hate Crime Reports with the Moderator or the FCC ... or I guess even they (the FCC) bailed out in favor of the National Trade Borg.
 
Posted by: @pertinax

without testing we have no idea what is real and what is falsehood.

As I repeatedly stated: Abstract Idealism. That sums it up. Abstract means it don't get used or proved on Earth. If an abstract notion can be brought down here, and used, or modified for usage, and it works ... well, then it's not abstract any more. Idealism is a form of wishful thinking.

This can result in you scientists being accused of getting it backwards.

Posted by: @pertinax

There is such a thing as a point of view.

Heretic.

Posted by: @pertinax

in Zen terms, this very moment is absolute reality.

Not only in Zen terms. It also applies to those other mansions as well. It doesn't get any more Absolute than Right Now.

The Doctor steps in to say: What anyone perceives in their present moment has already happened. It takes a few milliseconds for the senses to process the input, and if their output to the cognizance center is something new, the conscious mind may hesitate for a few seconds while it's figuring out what's going on. What went on has already passed into the Old Aeon.

Everybody is always just a touch behind the curve when using the sensors and the linear mind.

Thank you doctor for your scientific attempt to mess up the Zen concept. We all know the linear mind has a governor built-in, so that it can only run so fast.

The Zen, Tao/do, Wu-wei guys and gals gnos better. They are in the grove, they are the curve, experiencing "things" directly, avoiding the linear explanation based on faulty sensors.

 


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Tiger
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“ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! “
Matthew 7:21-23

@shiva
“I may have missed something. Your quote is in "quote marks," who are you quoting? It is very hard to follow to dialogs and trilogs if everyone is making obscure references to other people who are not defined. “

It was taken from Barbara’s post but not directed specifically to her.
The goat and the star of the morning felt like coming out of the hat so i pulled em into the trance.

 

a toast to pertinax, Barbara and everyone.


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Pertinax
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Posted by: @shiva

In my Father's house there are many mansions. Maybe that's why he got crucified?

I think you might be on to something there. Can't have people going around knowing they are God. I do however feel that Christs teachings have been shanghaid by the very authorities that killed him.

Posted by: @shiva

Heretic.

Guilty as charged. The Spanish Inquisition seem to be running late though.

Posted by: @shiva

Not only in Zen terms. It also applies to those other mansions as well. It doesn't get any more Absolute than Right Now.

True, but you know how I like to pigeon hole things.

Posted by: @shiva

What anyone perceives in their present moment has already happened. It takes a few milliseconds for the senses to process the input, and if their output to the cognizance center is something new, the conscious mind may hesitate for a few seconds while it's figuring out what's going on. What went on has already passed into the Old Aeon.

In military speak we used to call this the 'flash to bang', if somebody was a bit slow on 'getting' new information, we'd say there was a lag in their flash to bang. Anybody who's ever been down range knows that you see the flash before you hear the report, by which time the projectile has already passed you, if you are lucky. This is a good practical demonstration of the principle you describe.

Of course your doctor, who if I'm not mistaken resides in Hod, will try to make a conceptual model, using math or other abstract models describing ballistic trajectories, and if he is particularly audacious might even try to guess the nature of the weapon and the demeanor and shoesize of the firer, all the while reality is going on always just ahead of him, uncaring as to whether he is taking notes. So unless he's got his wu-wei in order he'd better be ready to duck!

As for the main topic, that seems to have been derailed or run out of steam. Unless some sort of resolution occurs I'll leave it at that for now.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @pertinax

 

As for the main topic, that seems to have been derailed or run out of steam. Unless some sort of resolution occurs I'll leave it at that for now.

Really?  I'd say it's just got going.   No one addressed the apparent conflict between Thelema and Christ's attitude to 'the world'.  As I said;

 

In Mathew 9:10 there appears to be a party going on where harlots etc were present as follows;

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.

There in the despised tax collector's house Christ told the story of the Prodigal Son.  He equates 'riotous living' or 'wild living' Luke 15:11-32 with death.  This contrasts greatly with the passages in AL about drunkenness, lust, strange drugs and gathering store of women and women apparently encouraged to be loud and adulterous and so on.   In Thelema the Harlot is elevated to the status of Goddess.  This would have surely been anathema to Christ's view (well, as much as Christ was capable of hate). 

 

Likewise Christ had a few striking things to say about rich people most notably  "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)   This was perhaps brilliantly captured by Woodie Guthrie in his work Jesus Christ.   How this differs to exceeding the nations of the Earth in splendour and wear to me jewels.

 

Furthermore every line of the following prayer could lbe counterbalanced by a passage from AL (...or could it?);

 

The Sermon on the Mount

Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

The Beatitudes

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sonsa]">[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

I'll give one example.  Contrast Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven with AL 2:77  be thou proud and mighty among men!

 

It's almost like the New Testament and the OT are anti Thelema propaganda spins whereby the evil, debauched, cruel and lascivious Pagan kings who oppress the Chosen people are presented as harbingers of darkness. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Barbara
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Posted by: shiva

Yes, you may ask such a thing. I have demanded it. It is a matter of the Life or Death of Shiva on this thread.

 

 

Sorry Shiva (and others), I have to respond to Dom’s last quote. If my being here drives you away from this thread, so be it. We will have less of your wisdom, but we will have an authentic discussion, nonetheless.

Dom, you stated that, “It’s almost like the NT and the OT are anti-Thelema propaganda spins...” Have you forgotten that the Bible was written 2000+ years ago, and that Thelema was based largely on discrediting everything in it? Crowley even got his number, 666, from the beast of Revelation. I’m afraid you have it exactly backwards, my friend. Thelema is an anti-Bible spin.

Barbara


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

Dom, you stated that, “It’s almost like the NT and the OT are anti-Thelema propaganda spins...” Have you forgotten that the Bible was written 2000+ years ago, and that Thelema was based largely on discrediting everything in it? Crowley even got his number, 666, from the beast of Revelation. I’m afraid you have it exactly backwards, my friend. Thelema is an anti-Bible spin.

Barbara

Yes I'm well aware of the linear timeline of anthropological history and development (and have posted extensively on the subject).... but God isn't restricted by mere linear time.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! “

Pity not the fallen.

 


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Tiger
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It was the mysteries of a pre mosaic enlightenment that drew the magic of the stars; and a new current was throned at the Equinox of the Gods. The Hermetic tradition was no longer being persecuted, Philolaus and the Pythagorean astronomical system were no longer pent up. The time was right for a new shift in consciousness.


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Pertinax
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Thankyou @dom, I'd forgotten about that, there appears to be life in the old dog yet.

Call me old Aeon, but I tend to equate riotous living with a sort of spiritual...death is perhaps too strong a word, perhaps hibernation? I can only state from my own experience that I was never more spiritually numb than back in my late teens when I was engaged in such a life, partying every weekend and imbibing strange drugs in fields, just for the sake of it.

I don't think Thelema advocates partying for it's own sake, although it certainly doesn't condemn it outright, but that sort of life I have found isn't conducive to either a disciplined outer life or an illuminated inner life. Each to their own but I agree with Christ on that one.

Posted by: @dom

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If I were a cynic I might retranslate this as "blessed are the spiritually bankrupt", which might please some, thinking that they have found God at the bottom of their debauch. However I am given to understand this line differently. "Blessed are those who have emptied themselves (to the last drop)", which is in line with both every other world religion, and in line with the latter stages of the A.'.A.'. path.

My favourite though is still, "blessed are the cheesemakers"

I have to admit, AL 2:77 and the like never sat right with me. We have enough people in the world trying to be just that, and the world is a mess because of it. Of course we can interpret it spiritually, proud and mighty being simply the natural state of a star in its right orbit, but these sorts of lines are open to a much more negative interpretation.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Thelema was based largely on discrediting everything in it? Crowley even got his number, 666, from the beast of Revelation. I’m afraid you have it exactly backwards, my friend. Thelema is an anti-Bible spin.

This is correct, I think anybody with eyes in their head can see that Crowley was in the grips of a revulsion for Christianity, he was in my eyes a closet Christian, but one in terminal adolescent rebellion. Given his upbringing this is perhaps understandable.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @pertinax

Crowley was in the grips of a revulsion for Christianity

And to fulfil that revulsion, he referred to himself as "The New Christ."

 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @dom

You entered the thread quite late eh?

I thought it best to inject myself into the discussion before it ended in a group hug and the showering of sweet baby Jesus with kisses.

Posted by: @dom

From what I can gather, Parsons,(although exceptional in thinking  outside of the box with regards to practical chemistry) was an idiot.  

Ad Hominem fallacy.  It makes no difference if the critics involved are Larry, Moe, and Curly, it doesn't change the ill-effects that Christianity has had on the human race.

 


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Tiger
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“ Crowley was in the grips of a revulsion for Christianity “
“ And to fulfil that revulsion, he referred to himself as "The New Christ." “

The Great Beast 666


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

Who "created" which doctrine that was poison?

It was the largely the apostle Paul, and his disciple Augustine.

Posted by: @shiva

The juvenality, in any case or person, means "spiritually immature."

Given that Christians spent centuries torturing and burning non-Christians at the stake, and to this day will go out their way to demonize and destroy non-believers, any suggestion that Christians are spiritually mature, and those are are not, are not, is ill-founded.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Topic starter  
Posted by: @herupakraath
Ad Hominem fallacy.  It makes no difference if the critics involved are Larry, Moe, and Curly, it doesn't change the ill-effects that Christianity has had on the human race.

 

Proper christianity (like proper socialism) has never really existed.  I think it was Nietzsche who said that the last christian died on the cross e.g. American Evangelists are generally about as Christ-like as Ted Bundy was.

 

 

Posted by: @pertinax

Thankyou @dom, I'd forgotten about that, there appears to be life in the old dog yet.

Call me old Aeon, but I tend to equate riotous living with a sort of spiritual...death is perhaps too strong a word, perhaps hibernation? I can only state from my own experience that I was never more spiritually numb than back in my late teens when I was engaged in such a life, partying every weekend and imbibing strange drugs in fields, just for the sake of it.

I don't think Thelema advocates partying for it's own sake, although it certainly doesn't condemn it outright, but that sort of life I have found isn't conducive to either a disciplined outer life or an illuminated inner life. Each to their own but I agree with Christ on that one.

 

Thelema advocates all types of drunkenness including satori (or whatever label we care to use for any species of trance)  etc.

 

The Sermon on the Mount is about potential i.e. blessed is someone who doesn't have something because now he can work towards achieving it. 

  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

I thought it best to inject myself into the discussion before it ended in a group hug and the showering of sweet baby Jesus with kisses.

You thought. Now you can clearly see how twisted the mind can get. The hugs and kisses have been abrogated in favor of sad fare-thee-wells, with a bite into how bad Thelema is.

Posted by: @herupakraath

it doesn't change the ill-effects that Christianity has had on the human race.

If you make that "All organized religions," I'll go along. If you single out Christianity, I will submit a Hat Crime Report with the religios police.

Posted by: @herupakraath

Given that Christians spent centuries torturing and burning non-Christians at the stake, and to this day will go out their way to demonize and destroy non-believers, any suggestion that Christians are spiritually mature, and those are are not, are not, is ill-founded.

I see you are stuck in Anti-Christianity. Horus versus Set. Good show - I pray that you will get over it. I understand the Buddhists are killing the Muslims in certain Oriental countries, and the Muslims kill people everywhere. All Organized Religions. Get out of revenge mode or you'll never see The Other Shore.

Posted by: @dom

Proper christianity (like proper socialism) has never really existed.

I thought there was this guy called Jesus. Since he's a composite being, it's hard to tell if he really existed or what his virtues were. But the legend says it existed on the hard physical plane, back at the beginning (?) of the Great Osiris Exposition of 2000 years.

Posted by: @dom

The Sermon on the Mount is about potential

Abstract Idealism.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @herupakraath

it doesn't change the ill-effects that Christianity has had on the human race.

All Deities reside in the Human Breast. So wrote Thine Uncle William O'Neill. 

From this perspective, Christianity is not the contagion but a symptom of an illness within Humanity Itself. The Human Race is the source of all "crapulous creeds," all oppressive regimes, all bigotries and ALL religions, including that which came crawling out of Crowley's head. Extinguish this "Christianity" and there will be no de facto uplifting of the Race into "Spiritual Maturity." It is quite arguable that Thelema, in its relatively short and dysfunctional run, has also failed as a "movement"...or a tax-deductable non-profit. 

The Way of Christ as presented in the Gospels is open to a variety of interpretation. A simple, sober reading of the synoptic four, however, will find no justification at all for the atrocities perpetuated in his name (War, Torture, Murder, Child Abuse and so on).

Hence, when Blake (someone possessed of Spiritual Elevation) encounters the "Anti-Christ" (i.e the Church as an exoteric temporal, political and military power broker) professing to act in the "Name of Jesus," he declares with characteristic defiance:

"The Vision of Christ which thou dost see-is MY Vision's Greatest Enemy."

Likewise does his Christ declare that he will turn from those who profess his name in hypocrisy. He also chides his disciples when they report folks who do not know them (not part of the "Official Jesus Club") are over in some neighboring town casting out demons in his name. He responds with the classic "A good tree doesn't bring forth bad fruit." Thelema co-opts this stance and thus lists its saints and champions (Lao Tzu, Paracelcus, Buddha etc). The cast of characters sainted in the Gnostic Church weren't dues-paying members of a future organization but satisfied the requirement for "bearing good fruit." 

Jesus said Love your enemies and pray for them who persecute you. Doesn't really support the hatred for other nations, people, religions and even members of one's own church does it? Jesus said to sell your possessions and give to the poor. Just like Joel Osteen, I'm sure. Jesus said Woe unto them who cause the little ones (children) to stumble-better for that man to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea. Doesn't really indicate the coming centuries of sex abuse at the hands of "celibate" priests. And Jesus never advocated celibacy, in the first place. And I could go on and on...

This "thing" now called Christianity is so utterly divorced from its Teacher and Magus in a way which is nothing less than absurd, egregious and disgusting.

But crucifying a toad and hissing curses in Greek at passing priests is a rather paltry response.

Still, our Aleister couldn't help but suggest that his mother order the "Fried Jesu" from the menu.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @herupakraath

I thought it best to inject myself into the discussion before it ended in a group hug and the showering of sweet baby Jesus with kisses.

It's a bit early yet for the nativity festivities of Christmas. (On the other hand though, Crowleymas is just around the corner!)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I believe in absolute truth ...  May God bless all of you and draw you to Himself.  With love and regrets,

The writing was on the wall with this a while back, which is why I backed out of the proceedings earlier as ultimately being a waste of time under the present circumstances, outwardly pleasant as Barbara was/is: it's all very well coming onto the forum to "beard the lion in his den" or even to have a convivial conversation with "the devil's party", but the idea is that one should at least have an open mind about matters (and even if not being fully open to persuasion, to be prepared to at least consider things thoroughly from all angles).  Coming on with a determinedly closed mind, though, or with any idea of somehow hoping to persuade those here to somehow "see the light" and follow their (Barbara's) belief in J.C. is - optimistic, to (politely) say the least.

"There is none so blind as those who will not see" (Jeremiah 5:21)

"[A]rgue not, convert not, talk not overmuch!" (The Book of the Law 3:42)

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"[A]rgue not, convert not, talk not overmuch!" (The Book of the Law 3:42)

N Joy

How does this relate to the Promulgation of the Law? 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

The writing was on the wall with this a while back, which is why I backed out of the proceedings earlier as ultimately being a waste of time under the present circumstances, outwardly pleasant as Barbara was

To my point of view, Barbara has instigated an interesting conversation here. I would like to catch up with her questions but it was/is unclear as to whether or not she wishes to stay or go.

The idea that the Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill," for example, proves "Absolute Truth" is utterly absurd.

I think I would like to ask Barbara: do you think you have anything to learn? Do you think God has any seriously big left-hook surprises for you? Do you think your present point of view may look as Biblical "milk" to an unknown "meat" around a presently unknowable corner?

I once held views similar to those she espouses here. And I was an arrogant little fool who thought he could attest to what was going on, to what "Truth" is. 

Was it Blavatsky who remarked "All Truth is God's Truth?" Regardless, isn't it so?

I have always admired Crowley's motto of Perdurabo. 

There is a difference between "believing in Jesus" and "being saved" and nailing oneself to the Cross of the Path, giving oneself utterly to the Ultimate through every stage and phase and never turning back to comfort or convenience. 

Giving every last drop unto the Cup of Babalon is Crowley's Anti-Christic parlance. Giving every last preference and prejudice and attachment is the essence, whatever the symbol and form.

Barbara asked how I could be a fan of AC and JC when they seemed to be polar opposites.

My reply is this:

JC is not a "Man."

AC is a remarkable and curious man who is both entertaining and edifying.

I, like everyone else here, am on my own Path which winds into the One Path which is No Path.

 

 

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"[A]rgue not, convert not, talk not overmuch!" (The Book of the Law 3:42)

N Joy

How does this relate to the Promulgation of the Law? 

Ah, but what makes you so sure that it does?

If I were to explain this to you it would take too many words for the purpose and be better if you came up with your own answer anyhoo...

Minimalistically yours,

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

If I were to explain this to you it would take too many words for the purpose and be better if you came up with your own answer anyhoo...

Oh, come on! Humor me!

"Too many words?"

Say it isn't so! Surely you can contribute a few sentences and sign it "succinctly yours." 

What's your thought, then, on this verse in relation to the injunction to Promulgate the Law to everyone we meet on the street?   

 

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

What's your thought, then, on this verse in relation to the injunction to Promulgate the Law to everyone we meet on the street?   

"Let me sleep on it."

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

an open mind

No. Not Neti-neti.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Ah, but what makes you so sure that it does?

The Promulgation Instructions are very clear: Give people (everyone you meet) with a copy of AL, then let them decide. It's really quite simple.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

The Promulgation Instructions are very clear: Give people (everyone you meet) with a copy of AL, then let them decide. It's really quite simple.

Shiva, is this your personal mode of “Promulgation?” Do you hand the newly hired cashier at your local grocery store a copy of AL and let him or her decide what they think of “the fresh blood of a child?”


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Barbara
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@kidneyhawk,

I have been following the thread, as I can’t seem to turn away from you all. You ask some interesting questions and make some interesting points. I will respond to them, although I said I would go out of deference to Shiva’s challenge and his threat to leave the thread if I didn’t admit to a certain position.

Yes I have a lot to learn. Oh, yes. It is like the layers of an onion where each layer reveals another one, only you never get to the middle little green part that the onion grew from. To mix my metaphors, I do not know whether or not I am still drinking milk or I have grown up and am now on the meat. Only God knows.

I will tell you a little about my childhood so you can have a background for an example of something profound that God taught me a few years ago. This was a “left hook” sort of moment for me. My dad was basically a mean individual, who liked to use the belt rather freely. My mother was mentally ill and could scream for hours. Needless to say, I grew up with a lot of anger and bitterness.

This is a story about how God used the scriptures to teach me something. I was reading in the Psalms about David repenting over his affair with Bathsheba. He said to God, “Against you, and you only, have I sinned.” I thought, what the heck, David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, but he says his sin was against God alone. I prayed at the time that I didn’t want to sin against God, never knowing where that would lead.

Next, I heard a sermon about Job and bitterness. I left that sermon crying and telling my friends, “Call me Mara.” (From the book of Ruth.) Mara means bitterness. I knew I was bitter, but I didn’t know how to get out of it.

Then my sister called to say that my mother was dying, and did I want to see her. The Bible says to honor your parents, so we drove up to Olympia where she lived. On the way up, a scripture flashed through my mind. “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”  In that moment, I was able to forgive my parents and the bitterness was gone. They didn’t know any better. They were trapped by their own bitterness, just like I was, only they didn’t have Jesus to help them.

As far as your comments about surrender, I will tell you what I am like. I am the woman in Luke 7 who washes Jesus’ feet with her tears and dries them with her hair. I am like the women who followed Jesus everywhere, even to the cross. Then when their Love died, they prepared to anoint his body for burial. I cling to the cross because it has been my only hope of salvation. I don’t know what the future brings, but I know I can’t face it alone. I must have Jesus.

Barbara

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

I said I would go out of deference to Shiva’s challenge

There's no need to be melodramatic. I have no vested interest in this thread. My point still stands. Either there are many mansions in the Father's house, or there is only one. If there's only one, I'm not interested in it. I am also concerned about our "odious" performance ... which I must have missed, because I didn't see it. Well, there were, and probably still are, some malcontents who bristled over the edge.

 


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Tiger
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“ The way of perfection is thus twofold: first, the True Will must be consciously grasped by the mind and this work is akin to that of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Second,
“ thou has no right but to do thy will, “ each particle of energy which the instrument is able develop must be directed to the doing of that Will, and this is the fierce lion way, that until the second task be already far advanced, the confusion of the instrument is such that it is wholly incapable to accomplish the first.

there is no need that any one should push his fellow aside. As there is room in Heaven for every Star “

( HGA may garb itself as Christ, Pan, Shakti, Babalon, lucifer, or some other idea for each individual at different times ) my quotes

“ Know therefore that this Law of Thelema
“ Do what thou wilt “
is the first Law given to man which is a true Law for all men in every place and time. All earlier Laws have been partial, according to the faith of the hearer, or the customs of a people, or the philosophy of their sages.
many men, feeling in themselves the bitterness of Restriction, seek to relieve their own pain by imposing a like burden upon their fellows: as if it were a cripple who should seek to ease by mutilating the bearers of his carriage.

affirming conflict in the Universe is necessary.

the Law is a just Law: it demandeth not the crooked knee of slavery, and the bowed head of shame. Nay, shouldst thou speak even to the God of gods, stand erect, that thou mayest be one with Him by love, as He most surely willeth .

The Temple of Truth: The Mystery of Sin; inspired by the spirit of Khaled Khan while on the 'Holy Hill' of Sidi Bou Said. A.C.

 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

You thought. Now you can clearly see how twisted the mind can get.

Semantics, couched in psychoanalytical double-speak--not surprising.

Posted by: @shiva

The hugs and kisses have been abrogated in favor of sad fare-thee-wells, with a bite into how bad Thelema is.

If having one's views challenged in a lively discussion results in hurt feelings and sad farewells, the point of view under scrutiny is in all likelihood the issue.

Posted by: @shiva

If you make that "All organized religions," I'll go along.

The topic is Christianity and its relation to Thelema, so I hope you'll pardon me for staying on topic.

Posted by: @shiva

If you single out Christianity, I will submit a Hat Crime Report with the religios police.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection, send my credentials to the House of Detention, I have friends inside.

Posted by: @shiva

I see you are stuck in Anti-Christianity. Horus versus Set. Good show - I pray that you will get over it.

You see very little actually, other than the convenience in embracing all religions as equally valuable, while I see them as equally valueless. Revisionist history and mythology serve no purpose other than to maintain antiquated concepts that impede human progress.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

an open mind

No. Not Neti-neti.

Oh?  And if not this (or that) then what then?

Posted by: @shiva

The Promulgation Instructions are very clear: Give people (everyone you meet) with a copy of AL, then let them decide. It's really quite simple.

I disagree; they're not really so simple as you might think.  Apart from the question of whether the instruction was intended only for AC, and whether it even refers to the Book of the Law to begin with, the implication is that the copy must be a beautiful one printed in red and black on beautiful hand-made paper.  Even supposing I did have the inclination, I don't really have the wherewithal to finance that operation - do you?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I said I would go out of deference to Shiva’s challenge and his threat to leave the thread if I didn’t admit to a certain position.

Shiva is not the only person on this thread (website) whose opinion counts, of course...

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I am the woman in Luke 7 who washes Jesus’ feet with her tears and dries them with her hair.

You've mentioned this before; obviously it is a parable close to your heart.  I wonder if it ever occurred to her (you) to ask permission first?  He might not have been particularly in the mood to have his feet washed with her hair, after all... This overriding presumption is the sort of thing I mean in terms of being willing and prepared to see things from all possible angles (to use 21st century lingo, it would be rather an invasion of his 'personal space'.)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I cling to the cross because it has been my only hope of salvation. I don’t know what the future brings, but I know I can’t face it alone. I must have Jesus.

Whether you are fully conscious of it or not, this is the actual crux of the apostrophe.  At some point everyone (including you, Barbara) has to undergo their own personal "eli, eli, lama sabachthani" moment.  For some, this will come sooner than with others but eventually, in this lifetime or another, all must face the devastating crisis of being fundamentally on their own.

Cheerfully yours,

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Oh?  And if not this (or that) then what then?

The opposite, of course. "A closed Mind." Or a "closeted Mind." The metaphysical term is "crystalized," which is a fixed point of view that is incapable of wooing the wei-way.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I disagree; they're not really so simple as you might think.  Apart from the question of whether the instruction was intended only for AC, and whether it even refers to the Book of the Law to begin with, the implication is that the copy must be a beautiful one printed in red and black on beautiful hand-made paper.  Even supposing I did have the inclination, I don't really have the wherewithal to finance that operation - do you?

I note that you are spinning your wheels over minor details that are congested on the mental plane. Why are you getting all twisted over the minor details. I was speaking (typing, that is) from experience, not some opinion filled/killed with opposites, question marks, and non-inclinations.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I don't really have the wherewithal to finance that operation - do you?

I did.

I see that you are not familiar with the details of 1967. This was all noted in Inside Solar Lodge (both versions), and I will be as brief (here) as possible. No, copy and paste is easier on my mind, which is still engaged in chopping wood and spilling water ...

"[quote]

The Solar Lodge Press

In the middle and late 1960's there was a major shortage of Thelemic written material. Aquarius was always quick to say, "There are a lot of people who come around, and they say they’re interested in the Great Work, but they’re not. They’re just after my books!"

But, before he died, Aquarius was always willing to loan any of his books to Capricornus and me. We purchased a copying machine so that we could duplicate and retain this written wisdom. The machine was one of those early models that produced wet copies where the special paper had to be laid out to dry.

Magick in Theory and Practice had been reprinted by Castle Books, and one could always find a very inexpensive copy of that book at Publishers Clearing House. Also, The Legend of Aleister Crowley by P. R. Stephensen, and The Great Beast by John Symonds were available - and though this last text was accurate, it was not particularly favorable toward Crowley. Let’s face it, Symonds wasn’t entirely wrong, for although Aleister was obviously a genius, it was apparent that, much of the time, his personality was far from amicable.

Other than that, there were virtually no Thelemic books available except the originals that had been published by Crowley himself. Sometimes these appeared in bookstores and, whenever found, they were immediately purchased by members of Solar Lodge.

For example, one day I came across a copy of The Equinox, Volume 3, Number 1, the book commonly known as "The Blue Equinox." After I bought it for twenty dollars, I was told that it had been purchased from Mama Cass. "You know," the bookseller said, "that fat girl from The Mamas and the Papas!"

Now it says in The Book of the Law that one is not to argue with or convert other people. One is simply supposed to hand them a copy of The Book of the Law and then that person is supposed to either freak out and throw it away, or they’re supposed to become enchanted and ask for more information. And that’s the way it was done at Solar Lodge.

The problem was, there were only two or three copies of this rare book on hand and it was necessary to say to someone, "Here, you might want to read this. But when you’re finished, please give it back to me. I know it says to destroy it after the first reading, but it’s the only copy I have and I want it back."

So in 1967, I decided to investigate the re-printing of The Book of the Law.

I had a friend, who we will call Mr. Tailor, with whom I had attended high school. Mr. Tailor had completed his college training and gone on to become a teacher at a junior high school. It just so happened that he conveniently taught the class called Print Shop.

After consulting with Mr. Tailor, he agreed to print the book - for free! But (there’s always a catch somewhere), his price would be a stack of "dirty pictures" that he expected me to purchase in Tijuana. I agreed, announcing afterward that "one certainly has to do some weird things while accomplishing the Great Work."

The text of our Book of the Law was reproduced directly from a copy of the 1942 Agape Lodge edition of the book. To this we added monotone reproductions in red ink of both sides of "The St

ele of Revealing" plus a new page modeled after one in The Equinox of the Gods, in which we listed the dates of previous printings of The Book of the Law and the major conflicts (wars) that had followed, or were supposed to follow, exactly nine months after each publication.

We decided on a print run of a thousand copies, each of which would be stapled into gold-stamped, red velour covers. But the gold work proved to be very difficult when impressed into the velour, and instead the title and design appeared as if they were merely "blind-stamped" into the covers with any gold traces disappearing in a very short period of time.

Mr. Tailor supervised the production and his students undertook the labors. Everything went just fine for the text, but red fuzz from the velour covers got into everything: The printing presses, the ink, the paper-cutters, and all the cabinets, shelving, and supplies.

It really didn’t take very long and soon we had a pile of one thousand copies of The Book of the Law. I, and two accomplices, then drove down to Mexico and found a cab driver who took us to a house of ill-repute where

I purchased fifty, low-quality, black and white, "dirty pictures" for twenty-five dollars. Mr. Tailor was delighted.

Printed in each book, underneath the list of earlier publications, were the words:

The Book of the Law

Issued from the Sanctuary of the Gnosis, Los Angeles

May 21, 1967

Privately printed by the O.T.O.

Solar Lodge

This Edition Limited to 1000 copies

This is Number _____

And so it came to pass that at on a sunny, Sunday morning at 9:00 am, on May 21, 1967, a ceremony was held on the front steps of the Griffith Park Observatory and Planetarium.

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"[end quote]

I won't go into the Great Ceremony at The Planetaryan. We gave away a hundred copies to everyone we met (after the Ceremony) in about 5 minutes. After that, we had plenty more. Today, each copy sells for about $300.

As far as I know, not one of us ever argued, or converted, or ran our mouths overmuch. We had no advertising program. I will admit to not having handmade paper in the deal, but there was red & black ink on high-quality paper. "Here's your book. Read it and die."

We also followed the primordial instruction: "Always make them ask!" (i.e., never offer admission to the mysteries). This worked out well, with so very little mouth-running. We were not evangelists.

But that was then. Did you know Liber AL went out of style (for me and mine) in 1984?

Today, if anyone asks about anything, I simply give them a book or a pdf ... of one of my books. AL might be mentioned, but it certainly isn't the core doc. There are things that pertain to (How did Ignant put it?) post-Thelemic  understanding.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

all must face the devastating crisis of being fundamentally on their own.

Yeah, these external deities can become unreliable at a certain point.

Well, that's an awful lot of data upload for this sunny day. I have to go now and spill more water. When I'm done, I'll turn to one of the many mansions, but it won't be here. I mean, I've already talked too much, and I find it to be a useless endeavor.

[quit]

 

 

 


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 550
 
Aleister Crowley's May Morn

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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2078
 

And the Prophet became a Painter who foretold, with brush and canvas, the sad death of INXS (with some guy discovered dangling in a closet).

 

Which, of course, led to the post-mortem, trans-Bardonic Palace of Wisdom.

 

Or at least, on the reincarnational route, more Songs of Innocence and Experience.

 

Unless the Prophet was pointing toward David Carradine...I suppose that could be Uma Thurman dancing in the background.

 

"Bye, Bill."

 

Or maybe I'm reading too much into the Happy Mushroom at the lower left.

 

Could be AC caught a glimpse of Mork from Ork.

 

“It's all in the Egg” (as Pam Dawber uttered in a mystic trance).

 

Ah, well...figures hung on a tree have been known to...

 

Resurrect.

 

No need to mourn on a May Morn.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2078
 

Jesus experienced the paradoxical alienation from the Father, as Jamie pointed out.

 

We can interpret this event in light of the meme I previously shared:

 

“God? Are you there? It's ME....YOU.”

 

The idea of an External Deity ultimately delivers abandonment on the Cross.

 

Rejection of this idea has been expressed in the works and words of many, including Nietzsche with his oft-parroted “God is Dead.”

 

There is no “external god” because there is no “external reality.”

 

I don't write this from a glib and nonchalant attitude. Nor am I solipsistic.

 

Crowley, I believe, understood all of this. As an individual, he carried all the neurosis of his youth to his grave (well, to his getting smashed out of an urn against a tree as I am led to understand). I think he can be forgiven. He was (proudly) a man (he'll deserve the title if he can). But he was also a profound mystic. Jesus was accused of being in league with the Prince of Demons and Crowley cheerfully sought association. In the end, they both seemed to express the same message:

 

Not my Will, but Thine, be done.

 

Do What Thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law.

 

WILL is subjugated unto a Higher Power in both cases. We all know Crowley's declaration didn't mean “Do whatever you want...do what feels good...etc.” Crowley meant, in Qabalistic terms, get to Tiphareth and become ONE with that Power, that Angel, that Realization....flow with it!

 

Vau (6) means Nail. 3 nails pinion Christ to the Cross (666). And is he not the Son (SUN) of God (6=Tiphareth-the Solar Center of the Tree) ?

 

In the Supreme Alchemy, the 7 headed Beast is one with the 7 eyed Lamb. Thus Blake asked of the Tyger: “Did he who make the Lamb, make THEE?”

 

The Lion (Solar Beast) lies down with the Lamb in Isaiah's vision.

 

Everything that rises must converge.

 

 


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