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dom
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Posted by: @pertinax

Rituals of death and suffering are indeed black. If we believe suffering to be the point, or focus on that rather than the inner significance of it then the ritual is indeed black, nothing but a death cult that needs to be cast away. 'Purged by the prophet', I interpret as being synonymous with the Buddhist 'right understanding'. 

The world of magick is a mirror, he who see's * is *.

Yep.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Didn't Crowley declare something to the effect of "If I'm a black magician, I'm a bloody good one?" 

And either way, for Mr. Thelema to denounce anything as "black" is a laugh and a half.

Is "black" BAD and "white" GOOD? 

Was Crowley a "White Magician?"

My questions are slightly rhetorical....Yellow School and all.

And Crowley the Magus doesn't get entangled in the affairs of the "Demon."  

It would seem that this thread highlights the damage done to young Crowley's psyche by a certain Christian Cult. The grown man, as sophisticated as he became, still squirmed against his childhood abuse and "kicked against the pricks."

And we can't really blame him, can we?

But we don't need to goosestep his neurosis.

I think I have expressed what I regard as my own "Christianity" in several posts here. I put that in quotes as my Neo-Blakean views have nothing in common with the Evangelical outlook. But I'll choose to keep the baby back from the bathwater toss, just the same. 

After all, it's the Aeon of the Child.

And, unless Ye become as a Little Child, Ye shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

🙂

 

Yeah and thee are dualisms in AL also but probably from, a non-dualistic perspective....but dualisms  the same. 

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Posted by:

 

I think I have expressed what I regard as my own "Christianity" in several posts here. ...

I practice elements of Christianity, the Psalms and the Gospels in particular I go back to regularly, it's not odious at all. I am on good terms with the local parish priest and go to mass from time to time.

Spoken (written) as someone who wouldn't be uttering "Apo antos kakadaimonos" at the clergy, as is the form norm amongst some fundamenties (e.g. Mottaites)!

Please note that

I practice elements of Christianity, the Psalms and the Gospels in particular I go back to regularly, it's not odious at all. I am on good terms with the local parish priest and go to mass from time to time.

are not my words.

Not that I have issue with them. But credit where credit is due.

Spoken (written) as someone who wouldn't be uttering "Apo antos kakadaimonos" at the clergy, as is the form norm amongst some fundamenties (e.g. Mottaites)!

I pity the Thelemite who yelps "Apo Antos" at the Greek-savvy Priest.  

On second thought, no, I don't.

 

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

Yeah and thee are dualisms in AL also but probably from, a non-dualistic perspective....but dualisms  the same. 

Our language is inherently dualistic which is why the masters of non-dualism often revert to symbol and paradox (ala the Zen Koan or Tiger's perpetually pouring poetics) to override our linguistic limitations.  


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Harvest festivals were related to sun worship? 

Is this related (and if so how) to your immediately earlier post

Posted by: @dom
 
I was thinking more of the blooming fauna

Since harvest festivals 

("We plough the fields and scatter/

the good seed on the land/

And it is fed and watered/

by God's almighty hand...")

would have been more appropriate to earth, rather than sun, worship (Demeter, Gaia, etc).

Posted by: @dom

and the Summer and Spring.

What, no "Fall" (or Winter) in your reckoning?  Why, when harvest festival is traditionally associated with the period just after the Autumn Equinox?

Posted by: @shiva

The official (while AC was still living) blurb from the OTO was: "The OTO is a serious and secret order ..."

Yes.  It seems Motta (like many others in the 'Order') was suffering from a hopeful desire for wish-fulfilment here: they all know that without the illusion of secrecy, there's nothing left for those outsiders (=outside the 'pale' of the order) to do but to pay closer attention to the machinations of the man fiddling around behind the curtain..

Posted by: @shiva

Although our present times may be considered "Horus the Child" getting to know his environment, the term "Aeon of the Child" is ridiculous.

So would "Horus the Moody Adolescent/ Teenager" be though...

Posted by: @shiva

The Aeon of the Child is a term that is so metaphorical that it seems to ignore the facts of the overall aeon.

The full, correct title is however "The Aeon of Horus, the Crowned and Conquering Child", which suggests he has come to maturity.  Just "Aeon of the Child" is an unsatisfactory (for the reasons you mentioned) abbreviation, or truncation, of the whole thing.

N Joy


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

[...] not my words.

Not that I have issue with them. But credit where credit is due.

You're quite right!  I don't know how that could have happened Kyle, and apologies for any confusion caused, but if appropriate and apart from the incorrect attribution the remainder of the comment would still hold.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I pity the Thelemite who yelps "Apo Antos" at the Greek-savvy Priest.  

Yes, yelping is pretty dog-like behaviour.  But then "Antos" is of course an unintentional typo (there should be a "P" at the start): and although I am usually quite careful about proofreading this one escaped through the net (though I don't seem to be the only one who missed it, however).

I think A.C. was probably pulling people's legs with this myself, and that it would have amused him to imagine the more credulous among his followers going up to and berating priests in this fashion.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Tiger's perpetually pouring poetics

(Perpetually) pouring something, though I'm not sure personally speaking the word would always be poetics!

N Joy


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dom
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@Jamiebarter 

Daddy Sun and Mommy Earth maketh the crops grow.  Didn't the Aztecs get genocidal for their Sun God in sacrifices because the crops were failing?  

Anyway the point was ( a long time ago now) that Crowley's "solar Phallic" religion, was it really that original?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It seems Motta (like many others in the 'Order')

The funny thing is, Motta was never "in the Order." (OTO, that is). In fact, he was never IN the A.'.A.'.. He was a 0=0 who jumped to 8=3. 0=0's are not considered to be IN the Order. As far as OTO goes, he was NEVER in that org, not even as a Minerva.

I have never read, or heard of, any significant thing he ever did. He wrote a lot of books, but revealed nothing new. He founded SOTO, which had an S(ociety) added to the stolen other initials. It crashed. He sued for the (c) emblem. That didn't work out well. 

What a confused, beligerent dolt he was, was he.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I'm not sure personally speaking the word would always be poetics!

Prosetics? Prosthetics? Prozaics?

Posted by: @dom

Anyway the point was ( a long time ago now) that Crowley's "solar Phallic" religion, was it really that original?

No. We (LAShTALians) have dissected just about everything in the Crowley inventory. We found/find that most, if not all, of his "original" concepts can be found uttered or scribbled by someone else before him. There is nothing new under the solar-phallic Aten, Horatio.

Credit-wise, he did a great job of assembling and re-assembling the fragmented ancient mysteries, and issuing it in the common language.

Wasn't it Fuller, who seems to have done no work, that quoted, "Old Wine in New Bottles?"

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Daddy Sun and Mommy Earth maketh the crops grow

Did you know in a minority of cultures this attribution was reversed - i.e., the Sun was seen as feminine and the Earth/ Moon viewed to be masculine?

Posted by: @dom

Didn't the Aztecs get genocidal for their Sun God in sacrifices because the crops were failing?  

Yes. (It was also one of the main themes behind The Wicker Man starring Christopher Lee, and who also looked on it as his favourite film, no less).

Posted by: @dom

Anyway the point was ( a long time ago now) that Crowley's "solar Phallic" religion, was it really that original?

No. (As mentioned before, Crowley got the idea from Reuss' early O.T.O.)

But I wasn't sure what you mean by "that" original: in comparison with what?

Posted by: @shiva

The funny thing is, Motta was never "in the Order." (OTO, that is).

Yes, that was why I put 'Order' in quotation marks 'like so' - alluding to his whole Society-ised conception of it (i.e., it wasn't the same thing).

Posted by: @shiva

What a confused, beligerent dolt he was, was he.

Nobody going to stick up for poor old set-upon Motta here?  There were at least a couple of die-hard 'followers' of his on LAShTAL a few years back (@gurugeorge ?); have they become inactive or can they all have deserted him also (cf., Et tu, Brute Wasserman, Starr, Gernon, etc)? 

Posted by: @shiva

Prosetics? Prosthetics? Prozaics?

The word might not necessarily begin with a P!

Posted by: @shiva

Wasn't it Fuller, who seems to have done no work, that quoted, "Old Wine in New Bottles?"

Are you asking @dom if he knows this reference, or everyone?  I'm not familiar with (the context of) it myself.

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Posted by:

 

I'm not sure personally speaking the word would always be poetics!

Prosetics? Prosthetics? Prozaics?

Prometheus! There's the word.

Tiger steals fire from heaven and gives it new form in an attempt to circumvent the terrestrial logicians who guard the gateway to the heart (not to protect it, mind you, but to keep their prisoner from bursting forth and running amok on a well-regulated playground, replete with shock collars and called "Reality"). 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @tiger

But we don't need to goosestep his neurosis.

Ah an exposition of his works treated as a neurotic mindset;

No, not quite. ASPECTS of his work and life, certainly. I endeavored to draw a distinction between Crowley the Foibled and Crowley the Fantastic.

It may be unnecessary to offer Mom the "Fried Jesu" when you know she would really like a Club Sandwich.   

Posted by:

 

And either way, for Mr. Thelema to denounce anything as "black" is a laugh and a half.

It appears as if like a tone of slightly disrespectful disdain may possibly have crept in towards the subject whose "Society" we're "Home" here at?!

I wasn't aware that such opinions were verboten here at Lashtal.com. Is there a rule I am oblivious to which says "Thou must always respect and never disdain the Great Beast?"

I think it is quite clear that my opinions, perspectives and feelings about Mr. Crowley are as mixed and varied and even at odds with one another as was his amazing crazy life on this planet. 

I also think I could allude to a few incidents in the life of Perdurabo which might arouse YOUR disdain, Jamie. But we find enough entertainment, intrigue and (most importantly) Spiritual GOLD in his works to come together with a toast raised to his Name-and endless talks spiraling out from his writing.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Yes, yelping is pretty dog-like behaviour.  But then "Antos" is of course an unintentional typo (there should be a "P" at the start): and although I am usually quite careful about proofreading this one escaped through the net (though I don't seem to be the only one who missed it, however).

Is God to live in a Dog? Mayhap. Especially if it's a Dog Star.

Jamie, as should have been obvious, I knew your "Antos" was a typo (as I am also inclined to make myself on a regular basis). I was being a smart ass and all in good fun. 

I'm also being a serial poster. This is typically frowned upon here at Lashtal. But with what seems to be very little forum participation from the larger membership these days, I figured it might be OK.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Tiger steals fire from heaven and gives it new form in an attempt to circumvent the terrestrial logicians who guard the gateway to the heart (not to protect it, mind you, but to keep their prisoner from bursting forth and running amok on a well-regulated playground, replete with shock collars and called "Reality"). 

Huh? (I didn't realized we were electronically in the presence of the next James Joyce, I really must pay closer attention...)

Alternative reaction: Huh!

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I wasn't aware that such opinions were verboten here at Lashtal.com. Is there a rule I am oblivious to which says "Thou must always respect and never disdain the Great Beast?"

This wasn't couched as a condemnation though as you appear to suggest, but merely as an observation.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Jamie, as should have been obvious, I knew your "Antos" was a typo (as I am also inclined to make myself on a regular basis). I was being a smart ass and all in good fun. 

I hadn't realized this either.  I genuinely thought you were just quoting me verbatim (but nonetheless made provision).

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I'm also being a serial poster. This is typically frowned upon here at Lashtal. But with what seems to be very little forum participation from the larger membership these days, I figured it might be OK.

I always put them in the one post personally, for no particular reason and not through any sense of right or wrong but from some crazy idea it would save space (again I don't know if it would be rightly or wrongly in this regard).

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Is God to live in a Dog? Mayhap. Especially if it's a Dog Star

and Ain't nothing but a hound barking all the time (never having caught a rabbit)

Howlingly yours,

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Posted by:

 

Tiger steals fire from heaven and gives it new form in an attempt to circumvent the terrestrial logicians who guard the gateway to the heart (not to protect it, mind you, but to keep their prisoner from bursting forth and running amok on a well-regulated playground, replete with shock collars and called "Reality"). 

Huh? (I didn't realized we were electronically in the presence of the next James Joyce, I really must pay closer attention...)

Alternative reaction: Huh!

I've long thought that our friend, Tiger, should put together a book along the lines of the Book of Lies. 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

This wasn't couched as a condemnation though as you appear to suggest, but merely as an observation.

I observe that many of us misunderstand each other on a regular basis. I think good humor and graciousness tends toward creative collisions. I also think you tend in this direction.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I hadn't realized this either.  I genuinely thought you were just quoting me verbatim (but nonetheless made provision).

Nope. I just took advantage of the typo to have some fun. I can expect the same to come back and bite me in the butt.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I always put them in the one post personally, for no particular reason and not through any sense of right or wrong but from some crazy idea it would save space (again I don't know if it would be rightly or wrongly in this regard).

However you present your words, I enjoy all of your posts.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Ain't nothing but a hound barking all the time

Ah, would that be AL-Vis?

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Howlingly yours

I had begun but never posted a response to our friend, Barbara, alluding to the Hound of Heaven by Mr. Thompson. But then it spun off into Jack the Ripper, Walter Sickert and Alan Moore-and I gave up the ghost.

 


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Shiva
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Oh!


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Tiger
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The R.C.C., Universal Brotherhood FOR Crowley and the adolescent neurotics, Trumpeting motifs that orthodox Christianity promoted not light but darkness, not truth but superstition and not peace and civility but fanaticism; Crowley, Hypatia of Alexandria, Giordano Bruno, Tommaso Campanella, Meister Eckhart, William of Ockham, Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Thomas Hobbes, Peter Abélard, etc. “Enlightenment is mankind’s exit from its self-incurred immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to make use of one’s own understanding without the guidance of another.Have the courage to use your own understanding!” Kant and Jews FOR Jesus; group hug time.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @tiger

Jews FOR Jesus

In the 1970s, all subway staircases in NYC had "JEWS FOR JESUS" written in chalk on the sides. My teenage pals and i used to change it to "SHOES FOR JESUS".


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christibrany
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Posted by: @tiger

It hearkens to a time when women adored the rising in the morning
and of its labour during the day
and after its labour adored the fact that it set and stopped talking

in order for it to rise again.

Pitching a wooden tent in the morning?

Adoration of the Son?

A stone pillar for the gopis to adore?

 

image

 

Chris Christ on the Cross is the wooden pole

Odin sacrifices himself

As the Penitent thief is to the right hand of the Sun

So Jesus is pierced on the Right side

On his Left side the Path darkens and there is no pardon.

 

***

I was never a huge fan of Jesus, but I don't hate the guy either.

He's just kinda there. Like me and popcorn.  

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

Immaturity is the inability to make use of one’s own understanding without the guidance of another.

Heretic!

Also: This topic is treated in Hot Zones ..., (c)2020, and you have exceeded your authority to use the concept under the fair use dispensation.

The very idea of self-reliance is repugnant to the Church. i shall call the religious police.

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @ignant666

"SHOES FOR JESUS".

"...and all this Vegetable World appeared on my left Foot as a bright sandal form'd immortal of precious stones & gold: I stooped down & bound it on to walk forward thro' Eternity."

-William Blake (from Milton)


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Barbara
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @shiva

Wasn't it Fuller, who seems to have done no work, that quoted, "Old Wine in New Bottles?"

Are you asking @dom if he knows this reference, or everyone?  I'm not familiar with (the context of) it myself.

N Joy

The reference is from the Bible originally.

”Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.” Matthew 9: 17

Barbara


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wellreadwellbred
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"I have known personally some people in our Order who have believed or who have worried that Thelema is just an elaborate crypto Christianity, that after all the blasphemies againt churches and traditions, the initiate might utimately and in secret be brought to Jesus ...". 

Source : 37 minutes and 43 seconds within:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-l3ftN8IlA - - -  "“We Antichrists” by Dionysius Rogers [...] 6. okt. 2020 [...]

Ordo Templi Orientis USA

Order leadership and senior initiates have been at justifiable pains to distinguish Thelema from vulgar Satanism. At the same time, it is undeniable that an antichristian impulse was inherent in the work of our Prophet, who called himself both an atheist and “the truest of all Christians.” This presentation will discuss the development of the concept of antichrist throughout the Old Aeon, and its fulfillment in Thelema. It will include a survey of the Thelemic Saints and heroes who have been recognized as antichrists, as well as a discussion of the sources and expressions of Aleister Crowley’s opposition to Christianity, and it will culminate with an appeal to the “inner antichrist” of each Thelemite."


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred quoting one half of the holy duplexity...

Crowley’s opposition to Christianity, and it will culminate with an appeal to the “inner antichrist” of each Thelemite."

Um, there's a difference between Anti-Christianity (the organized religion) and Anti-Christ (which is a questionable avocation).


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Tiger
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"SHOES FOR JESUS".
"...and all this Vegetable World appeared on my left Foot as a bright sandal form'd immortal of precious stones & gold: I stooped down & bound it on to walk forward thro' Eternity."
-William Blake (from Milton)

There arriving the going moment.


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wellreadwellbred
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"Reddit reveals daily active user count for the first time: 52 million", as mentioned by Shiva on this site in the thread titled "Content of "Temple of Thelema" - - - www.heruraha.org, now hidden behind Username & Password:"(Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/113615/   )

On reddit (source: "Christian Thelema" - https://www.reddit.com/r/occult/comments/c2hlkw/christian_thelema/ ),  Crowley is quoted as stating that:

"Come unto me, that I may declare unto ye the wonder ineffable! Know that our beginning is in GOD, and our end in GOD; wherefore this is the Great Work, to attain unto the Godhead. Pitiful and of tender love, hath He revealed unto the wise men of old time, the Way of this Attainment. [...]  Our Lord Jesus Christ established it through the mouth of the Beloved Disciple. [...] This is the True Sacrament by which ye are partakers of the very Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not in His death, but in His resurrection."

The just mentioned quote would be from Crowley's text Liber Agape, discussed more in detail on this site where in the thread titled "Liber Agape", and within the latter thread Liber Agape is quoted as containing the statement: "In our Lord Jesus Christ is the Great Work accomplished." (Source: Liber Agape - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/liber-agape/  ).

With respect to the above just mentioned Sacrament associated with "Our Lord Jesus Christ" by Crowley, how would you explain to Barbara Green, or any other Christian individual, how this sacrament is preferable to, and an improvement of, the sacrament of the Eucharist, or the Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper, available via the most common Christian denominations (The Book of the Law, Chapter 2, verse 5.: "Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.")?


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ignant666
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

how would you explain to Barbara Green, or any other Christian individual, how this sacrament is preferable to, and an improvement of, the sacrament of the Eucharist, or the Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper, available via the most common Christian denominations [...]?

The obvious answer might be "One wouldn't do that, if one were inclined to '[o]bey [the] prophet' [AL, I:32]":

Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. [AL, II:39]

Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much! [AL, II:42]


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

how would you explain to Barbara Green, or any other Christian individual, how this sacrament is preferable to, and an improvement of, the sacrament of the Eucharist, or the Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper, available via the most common Christian denominations

I would probably not attempt to even begin to explain this garble to anyone, Christian, Buddhist, Mongol or Din. What is a Din?

Many of AC's works around the end of the first decade of the "old century" (1900s), until around the end of the second decade,  were penned as cornerstone docs for the OTO under Reuss's OHOship. Now Reuss, being a closeted Christian who insisted that all OTO docs begin with or bear the motto, INRI, he (AC) slanted the hidden secret into INRIland and laid it over with all kinds of hermetic lingo that made the docs unreadable by the profane and the initiated alike.

Since this is all intellectually fabricated (made-up) stuff, why would I (or you, for that matter) want to explain the hidden mysteries to someone who is fully engaged in their own mysteries?

And why is the non-informative Liber Agape, and its sacrament, preferable  to anything else? Argue not, convert no way, don't run your mouth. Says so in the AL scripture. I'm beginning to think (oh, no!) that the thread about the fourth power of the Sphinx might need a necromancer.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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"Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright. [AL, II:5]"

"... to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!. [AL, II:39]"

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much! [AL, II:42]"

 

Laugh out loud, I can just imagine the following: 

(A The Book of the Law thumping Thelemite dining or drinking with a Christian or some Christians:) "The most holy book of Thelema, instructed its prophet to purge the good rituals of the old time, and he have done so with a sacrament associated with Our Lord Jesus Christ."

(Reply from a Christian, or some Christians:) "Whaaat, how did he do that!?!?"

(The Book of the Law thumping Thelemite's closing remark directly related to said Thelema:) "Well, the most holy book of Thelema instructs me to "... argue not; convert not; talk not over much!", but it also states that you "... shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds.", nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, know what I mean, say no more, say no more!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV3QgDq2TGw - - - "say no more"

 

Shiva: "I would probably not attempt to even begin to explain this garble to anyone, Christian, Buddhist, Mongol or Din. What is a Din?"

"... “Din” – 'severity' or 'judgment' may refer to the Jewish Law, rather than to the Faith (ad 'din') of Islam. ..."

(Source: The New Comment to: AL III,53: “With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.”)


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Tiger
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“how would you explain to Barbara Green, or any other Christian individual, how this sacrament is preferable to, and an improvement of, the sacrament of the Eucharist, or the Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper, available via the most common Christian denominations”

It is an affirmation of the Ultimate Mystery of the God-Man, of the Magi of Egypt,The Gnostics and Manichees, the Ophites and workings of the Alchymists, Brothers of Hermetic Light and the glories of Eulis in applying themselves with physical magick to the finding the Perfect Tincture, the Medicine of Metals, the Philosopher’s Stone, the Universal Medicine, the Elixir of Life, Arcanum Arcanorum.
With a Promethean Fire, Energy, Genius, Creation, in the Sceptre of the Realms unlocking the MANNA that cometh down. And wallah DEUS EST HOMO, GOD IS MAN. AS ABOVE, SO BELOW; AS WITHOUT, SO WITHIN There is no part of man that is not GOD ! Thou knowest Him as thou art - KNOW THYSELF !
Light, Life, Love and Liberty.
Thou hast no right but to do thy will.
The Word of Sin is restriction.
And might as well throw in Crucifixion and Copulation, Sex and Jesus Christ; but not the one used by the black brothers.


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wellreadwellbred
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Liber Agape (by Aleister Crowley):

"OF THE NAME OF GOD [...]

... though this name of Jesus Christ hath been universally blasphemed by Christians, yet this Name hath been acknowledged by the true Brothers of the Rosie Crosse: and this which is written of Him in the Evangels and in the Epistles and the Apocalypse is true, if it be interpreted in light by the adepts of the Stone.

For in God-man is our salvation; in Him We are both GOD and man. Yet the Testament thereof, being betrayed and given to the multitude, hath been profaned; as it is written, Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they turn again and rend you!"


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wellreadwellbred
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Falcon (@falcon):

"Aleister Crowley maintained that the task of his sexmagical organisation Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.) was "to restore Christianity to its real status as a solar-phallic religion."" (Source: "Restoring Christianity as a solar-phallic religion" - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/restoring-christianity-as-a-solar-phallic-religion/  )


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fraterihsan
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The questions

Posted by: @dom

So where does Christ get it wrong?  Where does he get it right?

imply that Christ was a historical personage who we might evaluate based on all available evidence and documentation. Whereas this may or may not be true, thinkers such as Soren Kierkegaard took a very different approach to Christ. Kierkegaard, for example, felt that the closer one got to a “Historical Jesus,” the further they got from the Living Christ. This is an important point. We don't approach Crowley like this. We understand that, Prophet and Magi or not, he was a man, like any other. The Living Christ, on the other hand, is an immanent spiritual verity. This may be an analog to a State of Consciousness and Illumination which APPEARS as an Individuality at certain stages of our spiritual elevation and development.

 

There are Buddhist Schools which approach Buddha in the same fashion. The historical Shakyamuni is not the “Original Buddha,” even if he seems to be the first on the historical timeline. The Original Buddha is the inherent Buddha Nature which permeates all things, MANIFESTING THROUGH people, places and things.

 

Jesus becomes the FIRSTBORN of the Resurrected and Christians are called Co-Heirs to the Kingdom (Jesus having made his devoted circle equal to him by calling them his Brethren and then his Friends). “I am the Vine, Ye are the Branches.” St. Paul extends this further when he describes the Church as the Body of Christ, each individual serving a different function as the different parts of the Body do. THIS, I feel, is akin to DO WHAT THOU WILT. Dom's Will may be different from mine in our present individualized manifestation. Ultimately, there is a singular COSMIC WILL from which Dom and I both emerge and will fall back into.

 

If one can read the synoptic Gospels away from all the theologies which have co-opted them, we might experience a type of rich and compelling poem in the field of Wisdom Literature. Readers may be less likely to sneer and mock “Zombie Jesus” and find themselves encountering a very intriguing mystical figure.

 

There is that great meme which I have seen making the rounds on Facebook where Jesus in Gethsemane is praying: “Dad? Are you there? It's Me: You.”

 

But this inadvertently reveals something of the profundity of the Son of God operating as a Crossroadian Between the Planes. Jesus identifies with the “Father” in Scripture...”Before Abraham was, I AM.” He ALSO bestows this teaching, gnosis and revelation to his Disciples. They, too, are I AM. This is the Name by which YHWH reveals himself to Moses. It is a Name of Power and embodies what Neville Goddard calls “Unconditioned Consciousness.” From this, the Imagination fashions reality through a sequence of emanations. This is why God, in Isaiah, declares that he creates and destroys, he does GOOD and he does EVIL.

 

This is all expressed in verse 00 of Liber B vel Magi. Here we find described in the most succinct language God (I AM), Barbelo (Mother-Father Emanation), the extension of Duality into a Mandalic Framework from which proceed the Seven Rays (and these are repeatedly identified by Theosophists and such in the symbolism of Scripture, from the Seven Eyes of the Lamb to the Seven Heads of the Beast).

 

No, I don't think Yod-He-Shin-Vav-Heh is a defunct Osiris. As I mentioned on another thread, I think Jesus was beyond his time, epoch and aeon. Hence, he spoke of eating his flesh and blood and the masses turned away. “This is a hard saying-who can bear it.” But he wasn't speaking of his corporeal body. Similarly, he spoke of tearing down the Temple and raising it up in three days. Again, those who heard him speak thought he was speaking literally.

 

Crowley wrote that Thelema was to be a restoration of Taoism. Taoism emerged within the Aeon if Isis. If the Aeon of Osiris was abrogate, how much more that of the Mother! But Crowley, outside of his own religious dogma, perceives things from a higher level. It's my thought that the Aeon of Ma'at witnesses the restoration of Christianity. It's also my thought that Aeons are Components of Cosmic Consciousness which come together as we rise through our Initiations.

 

As to the Historical and Immanent Living Christ, I take a both/and approach.

 

Blake was once asked as to Divinity of Jesus. He paused and then answered:

 

“He is the Only God. But then...so are You. And so am I.”

 

Amen.

Yes you are very correct here, as far as Christianity is concerned, in the manner of it's relation to Thelema.

Also thumbs up for understanding the concept of the cosmic will, which many Thelemites don't even grasp (thinking that Will is only individualistic, henceforth missing the power of the phrase Do What Thou Wilt)


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fraterihsan
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Posted by: @ignant666

I think that "hatred of Christianity" is a phase many/most of us have been through (or may still be in). No one hated Xianity more rabidly that i as a young man.

I still regard it as, in essence, Satanic, since the God of the Bible is clearly an objectively evil entity, who seeks worship through terrorism. and treats his creation in a manner that would have the ASPCA (RSPCA for you Brits) at your door if you did it to a dog.

But Xianity can unquestionably lead to attainment, is sometimes socially a positive force (and often the opposite, of course), and i would not say i am "anti-Xian" at this point.

I still thinks it's creepy. The first time my son saw a crucifix, a very large one (like 4-5' high) on the wall of a bodega, when he was 5 or so, he screamed "What are they doing to that man?" The second one he saw, a couple years later, he pointed and said "Look! It's Fucking!" We explained that no, that guy is called Jesus. He said "i knew his name was a bad word!"

That's the thing though, the "Abrahamic God" is supposed to be beyond duality and beyond good & evil (remember Isaiah 45:7), rather as it's source. It's not even an entity, seeing that it's theophanic appearances are an angel ("The Angel of The Lord") and not YHWH/Allah itself. 

Anyway the more repulsed people are by the "Abrahamic God", the more deeply I appreciate what the Abrahamic current produced. However still misunderstood by so many of their followers. God is not good or evil (though we are to strive towards the good and purify ourselves from the evil, in the process of initation etc) but rather God consumed good and evil by fire, all things in existence burn up in the wrath of it's absolute transcendent unity. 

Abrahamic followers are supposed to understand that God embraces all things, all extremities of existence, nothing is outside of it's totality, as it is the ground of all being. Henceforth, have no other god than the One God. "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." La ilaha illa'llah, there is no God but The God, no reality but the ultimate reality.

Christianity is objectively incorrect nonetheless with it's "God is love" idea, which is worship of the demiurge and not the ultimate reality (or Will). Love is multiplicity, manifestation and not unity, ground, absolute; but Will is Unity. Love under Will, et al. God is Unity. Love is a process, not the ends to the means, unlike what Christianity teaches. 


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Tiger
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Care and responsibility, humanity, Nature, and its reflection in the subject object mind complex; the Hierophant The Light of Hermes Trismegistus, the magos of the greeks and the Magoi of Chaldea, in succession of the (suppressed by the black brothers) Hermetic artisans forming various bridges to the ineffable.


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Barbara
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“...and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?…Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six.…And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receive the the mark of his name.” The Book of Revelation in the Bible.

Crowley claimed to be the Beast 666. He was everything that was the opposite of Jesus Christ, by his own choice. And you all lift him up and say you can be into “AC and JC.” No you can’t. 

Now I don’t believe that Crowley was actually the Beast of Revelation, but beware of identifying with him. You want to contrast Christianity and Thelema, well here it is: if you worship the Beast, you will “have no rest day or night.” Jesus says, “Come unto me…and I will give you rest.” Choose you this day whom you will serve.

Barbara


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Falcon (@falcon):

"Aleister Crowley maintained that the task of his sexmagical organisation Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.) was "to restore Christianity to its real status as a solar-phallic religion."" (Source: "Restoring Christianity as a solar-phallic religion" - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/restoring-christianity-as-a-solar-phallic-religion/  )

Did you not notice, wrwb,  with your evil eagle eye, that I indicated the very same passage (or quote) nine days ago (1st December) and on the previous page?  It set @dom off on about harvest festivals and the like for a while...

Posted by: @shiva

What is a Din?

Clamorous (glamorous?) nonsense; an unpalatable and offensive row, unpleasant to one's finer sensibilities and the eardrum. 

N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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JJB: "Did you not notice, wrwb, [...] that I indicated the very same passage (or quote) nine days ago (1st December) and on the previous page?  It set @dom off on about harvest festivals and the like for a while..."

Thanks JJB, for making me aware of having the sublime honour of walking in your footsteps.

How one called Jesus Christ by many Cristians, is interpreted by Aleister Crowley in his book Liber DCCCLXXXVIII - 888 - The Gospel According to Saint Bernard Shaw—A complete study of the origins of Christianity

"The Bible itself testifies to the universality of the wandering `holy man', and his aptitude for the founding of sects and communities. (Acts XXI, 38, and elsewhere) The evidence that Jesus was such a `holy man' or `yogi' has been worked out in the utmost detail by another of the same guild, known to the initiated as Shri Parananda, and to the profane as the Hon. P. Ramanathan C.M.G. Solicitor General of Ceylon, in two commentaries, one on Matthew and one on John. These books are unquestionably the most illuminating ever written on the life of Jesus, being written, as it were, from inside information. Any doubt of the truth of the theory put forward in this essay that may remain in the mind of any unprejudiced thinker must immediately be dispelled forever by a study of these two books."

The book How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee by Bart D. Ehrman, gives a reader friendly explanation of the process by which Jesus went from just another Jewish preacher to God incarnate.


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Tiger
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Invoke Tahuti Lord of Resurrection from the Mouseion of Alexandria; IAO Sabaoth Abraxas, Sophia, Dynamis, Musica universalis, u aei eis aei ei o ei ei os ei the sacred way for the soul of the reader to move closer to gnosis, the Nous of Anaxagoras, the logos, epithumia and thumos of Plato, the Mystic Tetrad of Pythagoras, boundless Apeiron, and the Light-Presence not embodied as a single individual image alone but as a matrix of Light, embodied by Light bearers as a whole—giving birth to a New and Divine Humanity,in whatever form it may appear. Every human being is unique and individual, therefore every individual's experience of the Truth and Light will be unique to hirself. An Ibis standing still, refection in the river.

Let the new methods of mystical prayer, meditation, and sacred rituals, of Self-empowerment and Self-realization; embody a Higher Consciousness, and seek a new orientation and motivation for human life and society. Rather than live in fear and reaction to Original Sin; Let the Risen Horus Apollo the Crowed and conquering child god of kingship,the sun and renewal take his throne focusing on a new vision as cocreators. May The temple of Edfu and the Mouseion of Alexandria be resurrected and restored.

Isis and Harpocrates
 

image

 

 

 


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Tiger
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The Mercurial Serpents have been unleashed into the arena, entering through involvement; of reading; seeding the Astral; and the form of The Child Armed and standing above indoctrinated sheep appears.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

And you all lift him up and say you can be into “AC and JC.” No you can’t. 

Again, here in this different thread from the one I quit because you kept insisting on division and opposition, you keep beating that same drum.

"No you can't." 

Yes, one can. I won't use the word "you" because you are set on fanning the war between Horus and Set. The higher states of Thelema are those wherein "there is no difference." You continue to to push "making a difference," and this is a sign of crystallized bigotry.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

if you worship the Beast, you will “have no rest day or night.”

That's a great bullshit quote. I know of absolutely no-one who "worships" the Beast. 

But some people seem to try to imitate him in their condescending ways. Most of us think they are silly.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

I noticed the "quote" marks missing from this sentence, so I guess you are issuing your own ultimatum here. You are pushing duality. One of the most basic of Thelemic practices is to "put any idea up against it's opposite, equilibrate them, then prefer neither." The "quote" marks are mine in a paraphrase. So now we get into the Zen or Tao way of thinking to enter the realm of non-thinking.

You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding in such matters, so how can you compare Thelema to anything, when you don't know what you're talking about?

You have failed to even begin the distinction between Frater Perdurabo and the Demon Crowley, which is an essential concept to have (the ability to discriminate) if you or anyone is to make any valid statement about him. The Demon Crowley was a neurotic egomaniac. Some folks would call him "psychopathic," but he's not really that off-balance. Those psychopathic fire types are much more aggressive than he ever was.

By the way, we are instructed to "talk not overmuch," so this is my last repost with you. You have entered the Octagon, and in the future I will restrain myself to single, one-sentence replies whenever you run on in your bigoted, narrow-minded way.

Posted by: @tiger

The Mercurial Serpents have been unleashed into the arena,

No kidding. The Octagon is open on this side of the StarGate

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

No you can’t. 

Posted by: @shiva

Yes, one can.

I didn't realize that pantomime season had started early this year

Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @barbaragreen

if you worship the Beast, you will “have no rest day or night.”

That's a great bullshit quote.

But where's it from - I don't recognize it.  Where's the (ooo-er!) "scare" quote from - is it a real one, or part of Barbara's own generalised threat/ warning?  By the way Barbara, thanks for providing information regarding

Posted by: @barbaragreen

The reference is from the Bible originally.  ”Neither do men put new wine into old bottles {etc etc]"

I still don't get the connection regarding Fuller, though? Meanwhile

Posted by: @shiva

I know of absolutely no-one who "worships" the Beast. 

"Oh, I do" (he added controversially, just to be awkward... it all depends on what you understand to be "worship", naturally).

Posted by: @shiva

You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding in such matters, so how can you compare Thelema to anything, when you don't know what you're talking about?

You have hereby been reprimanded by Shiva, Barbara: To relieve the quaking in your boots, you will need to throw a six-six-six (three 6's) to get out/ re-establish any credibility...

Posted by: @shiva

You have failed to even begin the distinction between Frater Perdurabo and the Demon Crowley, which is an essential concept to have (the ability to discriminate) 

Discrimination being the virtue of the Kingdom (cabbalistically speaking, at the "bottom" of the Tree of Life).

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

No pressure, then!?  What if one chose to say instead (following someone's precedent) "non serviam"? Hell(fire)?

... Will Barbara's next response on the thread be sorrowful pity, intemperate anger, most righteous self-justification or something more out of left-field, and just which passage(s) from the Bible will she use to reinforce her point??!!

Stayed tuned to this gripping channel to find out....

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

No pressure, then!? 

Today, Jamie, today. It's now or never.

After midnight, this day, UTC, you will be toasted if you choose poorly.

 


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Jamie J Barter
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Ah! Agh!! It burns, it burns!

Should have blown a bit harder on my midnight late supper toasted cheese sandwich, there

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

there

"There" (no period - maybe there's more? Where?

Where is "there?"

Did you decide? Did you beat the deadline imposed upon you?


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

Where is "there?"

On top of the bubbling cheese of my brevilleTM welsh rarebit

Posted by: @shiva

Did you beat the deadline imposed upon you?

I don't think I did.  However apart from that, nothing untoward has happened to me past the witching hour.

Though unsure whether this may still be even remotely on topic,

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

Did you beat the deadline imposed upon you?

You can beat the Devil with a Tesseract or Wrinkle in Time-and arrive at that Moment Satan Cannot Find.


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Barbara
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You are right, Jamie, I have been reprimanded by Shiva, but you forgot to mention that he also called me bigoted and narrow minded. I suppose I should be quaking in my boots, but I am not. I do think it interesting that when someone disagrees with the philosophy of anything goes, they are called bigoted and narrow minded.

And you are right, Shiva, I know next to nothing about Thelema. I was comparing the man Crowley to Jesus Christ. Actually, now that I think about it, there is no comparison to be had. Jesus was God incarnate, while Crowley was a wanna be Beast.

You all have called my religion solar-phallic, which I think is insulting to the God that I love and serve. I would say that you know as little about true Christianity as I do about Thelema.


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Tiger
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@barbaragreen
“ Jesus was God incarnate “
Well if that's true christianity;
what about you ?


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

but you forgot to mention that he also called me bigoted and narrow minded. ... I do think it interesting that when someone disagrees with the philosophy of anything goes, they are called bigoted and narrow minded.

That's pretty small beer considering.  You've been given a more or less easy ride relative to some in the past!  Good manners will carry one only so far, but "there is that which remains". 

You're denying the "charge", I take it, but on what grounds would that be?!

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Jesus was God incarnate

As this has been stated to you several times in one thread or another now: we are all God incarnate.  (It rather looks like no one is likely to be shifting any time shortly from their diametrically-opposed outlooks: this is the point at which we now start going round in ever-decreasing circles.)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

You all have called my religion solar-phallic, which I think is insulting to the God that I love and serve.

What's so insulting about "solar-phallic" actually?  Are you denying that Christianity is in fact a patriarchal, male-based, 'homocentric' religion?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I would say that you know as little about true Christianity as I do about Thelema.

What, "all" of us?  You couldn't possibly know that, so of course that's a bit of a presumtuous supposition in itself!  (And of course, "Nothing is true" as well, but perhaps it's best if we leave that little philosophical aside er - aside, for the  time being...)

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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I believe Barbara has expressed that she believes her God is her Creator and that she is a depraved creation. This depravity, however, isn't the fault of the God who made the machine-it's Barbara's fault. Well, kind of. She can't help it that she was infected with Original Sin. But God doesn't damn babies so there comes a point in our organic growth process when the infection “activates” and every man, woman and child makes that fateful choice (which they cannot help but make) which sends them into depravity. Only ONE WAY OUT: Vicarious atonement. God will incarnate and cause himself to be brutalized so if you just believe in this whole operation, you won't go to hell. But wait-Barbara also said something about not believing in hell. Maybe people just blink out at the last judgment. “Bad toy,” says the Almighty and poof...flash in the pan. But wait-they have to stay awake and get no rest forever, also (per the recent 2 Minutes Til Midnight post). .

 

This outlook ignores the scriptural declaration that we become NEW CREATIONS in Christ and Sin no longer holds dominion over us. It ignores the classic verse in Isaiah which says that God is able to make our depravity (Sin) “white as snow.” One is LIBERATED through Christ, at least in the Bible I have here (next to my copy of “Portable Darkness”).

 

If Jesus can't deliver on this, the "Case for Christ" is dead in the water.

 

And this brings me to pecking out the eyes of Jesus. Liber AL is a remarkable text in that it seems to function as a Mandala. Well, it is a book which purports to “explain the Universe.” In its economy of language, it specifies 2 things in the (in)famous “Jesus” verse. Horus (the new incoming Initiatory Power) pecks at the EYES and he does so as Jesus HANGS UPON THE CROSS. The Eyes are the outlook into the external world and they must be removed that the mind may turn inward toward Spiritual Reality (into ITSELF). Horus destroys the outlook of Vicarious Atonement. The crucifixion means something ELSE. In Thelema, one is not debased but rises up through confining systems of debasement into a self-shining dignity as a Star within the Body of God. And, ultimately, one realizes their Union with that Body Itself.

 

Re: Sin, it is simply a WORD awaiting a definition. I previously alluded to the definition of Philip K. Dick. He wrote (in his Exegesis) that it simply means “fucked up.” Out of sorts. Off balance. There's damage and things are out of whack. This scenario keeps us from knowing, loving and being “God,” the Totality and Perfection. But we wake up and sense this-and we set about our Quest which some call “The Path of Return.” Crowley outlined it wonderfully in One Star in Sight. It's not about guilt or feeling besmirched. It's about flowing homeward. And we can use a lot of words and terms and say a lot of things about it. But it DOES mean that we transform along the Way.

 

Or at least our seeming selves do.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

when someone disagrees with the philosophy of anything goes, they are called bigoted and narrow minded.

But you are not expressing "anything goes," so that comparison falls short.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

there is no comparison to be had. Jesus was God incarnate, while Crowley was a wanna be Beast.

You fall short of the mark again, because even the most basic Thelemite knows about the "All men and women are God" concept, even if they aren't able to manifest it right now due to needing to do more work.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

You all have called my religion solar-phallic

I didn't, so "you all" is a wide-sweeping error in relating what has passed (fake news).

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I would say that you know as little about true Christianity as I do about Thelema.

I guess you would be wrong, since you refuse to acknowledge "In my father's house, there are many mansions."

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Are you denying that Christianity is in fact a patriarchal, male-based, 'homocentric' religion?

Yeah, they took the feminine principle and called it "The Holy Ghost."

 


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