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Tiger
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Substitutionary atonement, Ransom sacrifice, have given way to the New Incoming Initiatory Power of the Aeon, enthroning the regal right and dignity of the self-shining Star blazoning in the night sky. As kidneyhawk so well put.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @barbaragreen

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

No pressure, then!?  What if one chose to say instead (following someone's precedent) "non serviam"? Hell(fire)?

Well, Hose down Anna! Hosanna!

The fateful day has now elapsed, and I'm still feeling kind of lazy about responding with a selection speaking for myself, but don't seem to have been in any way acted upon by any force majeure for my sins possibly perceived irreverence & non-compliant tardiness.  I wonder if anyone else has yet chosen (and/or "seen the light")?

"Silent night, holy night (goodnight)"...

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I wonder if anyone else has yet chosen

You've clearly passed on the Fried Jesu but seem to have decided most decidedly on the Grilled Cheesus.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

... but don't seem to have been in any way acted upon by any force majeure

A Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) hit the Earth two days ago ... but it was weaker than they (NOAA) predicted. You got off easy this time. "The day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night; the heavens shall pass away with a great noise ..." (Chapter and Verse not remembered). Maybe next time.

 


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Barbara
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”Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” Matthew 7: 6

“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” Matthew 5: 11

Barbara


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Tiger
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Must be a pat your self on the back, share the love and let the beings that don’t know that their swine Know them selves, kind a thing.


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Tiger
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I'll have to remember that for the next time i'm spewing stuff from the book i memorized and the audience isn't buying it.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

... and the audience isn't buying it.

How much does it cost to buy in? And do I have to pay in advance?

 


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Tiger
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@shiva
Well i can check in upstairs; i might be able to get it so that the advance is only 10percent of your salary before you go in. Of course if you donate more i might be able to get you a prime spot; and arrange it so that as long as you wear your best clothes and recite scripture once a week we can ignore what happens in the bedroom. If you weren't doin it for procreation we can always say you were doin it for God.

After all i do need a roof over my head and time to practice different ways of thumpin so that you won’t have to.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

10percent of your salary before you go in.

That's a good deal. I am retired and draw no salary. But then I have already bought in to your prose, since it reflects a relatively sane appreciation of the way things move on the inner planes, even if it may confuse those who are already confused.

Posted by: @tiger

After all i do need a roof over my head

No you don't. Crazy, wandering Sannyasin don't need no roof, although on that Island of yours (which is not an Island, it does get rather chilly in winter, unlike the warm jungles of Hindustan, so maybe you can justify the need for a roof to protect you from the snowman.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Dear Barbara,

"Love and Do what thou wilt!"

.....to so quote Aurelius Augustines Hipponensis aka St. Augustine 

So, I see you like to quote the Bible, which is fine, for Uncle Al as he is oft referred by these latter generations, could quote the Bible with the best of em, to which the future Aleister ever looked up to his father, who as a Plymouth Brethren marched through England, self published tracts in hand to engage folk of the immanent 2nd Coming of the Lord to which dialogues purpose of preaching aimed at influence the person's path of life would lead to the punchline....Get Right with God!

It was a book of Christian mysticism, Cloud Upon a Sanctuary that would lead Crowley to his spiritual path as an adult, an adult who had suffered greatly as a child at the hands of serial abuse so called Christians who all proved to be dumb, pedantic, cruel, and generally pathetic haters of life, sick hypocrites to which the ailing boy, whipped, forced to pray, denied literature except the Bible, found solace in Revelations not from the point of view of Chirst but of the tormented and the Beast...

He would later write in his Confessions, the Hagiography, that:

'It seems as if I possessed a theology of my own which was, to all extent and purposes, Christianity. My satanism did not interfere with it at all; I was trying to take the view that the Christianity of hypocrisy and cruelty was not true Christianity. I did not hate God or Christ, but merely the God and Christ of the people I hated. It was only when the development of my logical faculties supplied the demonstration that the scriptures support the theology and practice of confessing Christians that I was compelled to set myself in opposition to the Bible itself. It does not matter that the literature is sometimes magnificent and that in isolated passages the philosophy and ethics are admirable. The sum of the matter is that Judaism is a savage, and Christianity a fiendish, superstition"  from Chapter 6

It was upon a bicycle trip to recover his health, as a young teen, deemed never to make it to adulthood, that his life was saved by a particular tutor named Douglas who introduced him to life outside of the prison of his mother, his uncle and boarding schools...

"Though Douglas called himself a Christian, he proved himself to be a man and a gentleman....he produced a revolution upon my outlook on life, by showing me for the first time a sane, clear, jolly world worth living in. Smoking and drinking were natural. He warned me of the dangers from the athletic viewpoint. He introduced me to racing, billiards, betting, cards and woman. He told me how these things may be enjoyed without damaging myself or wrongdoing others. He put me up to all the tricks. He showed me the meaning of honour. I immediately accepted his standpoint and began to behave like a normal, healthy human being. The nightmare world of Christianity vanished at the dawn. I fell in with a girl of the theater in my first ten days at Torquay, and at that touch of human love the detestable mysteries of sex were transformed into joy and beauty.The obsession of sin fell free from my shoulders into the sea of oblivion. I had been almost overwhelmed by the appalling responsibility of ensuring my own damnation and helping others escape from Jesus. I found that the world was after all, full of delightful damned souls, of people who accepted nature as she is, accepted their own place in nature and enjoyed it, fought mean and despicable things fairly and firmly wherever they met them. It was a period of boundless happiness for me." Chapter 7

Where it was Augustine who in overcoming the Peligensian heresy, established the suffocating elements of original sin, to which even though Jesus extorted to become as little children, Christianity had unfortunately interpreted this to mean that people were to be whipped like children by the fierce Old Testament god, 'get your make on', rather than the free intuitions of beings with delicate sense, wonder and natural innocence and kindness, and brave and viral enough to not be a slave of fears.

Non the less Augustine's quote, sometime said as 'Love God and Do what thou wilt' is acknowledge as a precursor to the advent of the law of Thelema 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." which is also found in Francois Rabelais book that revived Classical culture in France, where the only way to educate was through humor....

Yes Saint Aleister Crowley's Confessions are worth the read. The Society here expects memorization of every chapter, well not really, but they are a hoot and 

Love is the law, love under will.

HG

 

 

 


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Tiger
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The Baphomet spoke prophesy; the infernal regions erupt with force and fire; the earth trembles and quakes; the heavens crack, The apocalypse set in motion, an uncovering. Let us celebrate the espousal with a feast !

@Shiva
“ No you don't. Crazy, wandering Sannyasin don't need no roof, although on that Island of yours (which is not an Island, it does get rather chilly in winter, unlike the warm jungles of Hindustan, so maybe you can justify the need for a roof to protect you from the snowman. “

Well i might as well also add a cadillac or car that makes me look more important than the Governor.

But then I have already bought in to your prose, since it reflects a relatively sane appreciation of the way things move on the inner planes, even if it may confuse those who are already confused.

Thanks for your empowerment at the Desert Star Temple where the ashes of the Saints and burning ground were placed, and the atmic atomic current made the egg radioactive.


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Barbara
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Dear HG,

Thank you for explaining all this so kindly. My mother had a similar upbringing to Crowley’s. She was beaten while the rest of the family had to stand around and sing hymns. She also had a similar reaction to Crowley’s, which was to reject Christianity altogether and become a woman of the world.

One thing I have learned from all of my friends at Lashtal is that I must be true to who I am and not try to conform myself to the will of another. I don’t seem to fit in anywhere, never have. I think I will always be a Christian, but I am a free spirit as well. I can never go back to the life I lived before I met Jesus, however. Even that didn’t suit me.

Again, thank you for your kind remarks.

Barbara


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Jamie J Barter
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Barbara, might I ask what exactly is your conception of the after-life in terms of "heaven/paradise" and "hell"?  I don't think you ever spelled it out although you previously dismissed the possibility of anyone burning forevermore in flames, but in your belief what exactly is the nature of the "punishment" for those who fail to fully accept the Christian doctrine of Salvation only being possible through believing in Jesus Christ, etc?  Do you also believe there's any sort of limbo, half-way Purgatory for less severe cases, or is it strictly one "place" or the other?  And do you think it's right if people are still punished for eternity even if they just made an honest mistake in their own belief system and/but otherwise lived a 'good' life?

I'm trying to work out what possible advantage(s) there may be in your message (just weighing up the precise pros and cons as it were),

N Joy


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Barbara
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Wow, Jamie, that’s a lot of weighty questions. I hope I can do them justice. First of all, I must say that when I came to Christ I had no thought about the afterlife, I just wanted help with the life I was living on this earth. I was not scared into a decision by thoughts of hell, nor was I enticed by thoughts of a heaven. My first prayer was, “God, if you exist, you can have my life because I’ve f—d it up so badly that I don’t want it anymore.” Well, that was 41 years ago, and I’ve never looked back.

That being said, I’ve only thought about the afterlife for the last few years as I’ve gotten older. I personally don’t think that the Bible is explicitly clear on the subject. For example, is the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 a parable or not? Also, there are two words in the New Testament that are translated as hell: hades, which is Greek, and Gehenna, which is Hebrew. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word Sheol is occasionally translated as hell. This is important because all three words basically mean the place of the dead. It is my understanding that none of the three words actually means a place of eternal torment.

It gets more interesting in the book of Revelation, which talks about hell being a place of torment for Satan and his angels. Revelation also discusses two deaths, the first death, which is your actual physical death, and the second death, which happens after the great white throne judgment. Revelation says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Now I take the word death literally. When the Bible says “The wages of sin is death” I believe that it means death. The Bible doesn’t say, the wages of sin is eternal torment in a fiery place called hell. In addition, if you look at Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross as being that he took our punishment for us, he would have to have stayed in hell forever in order to fully take our punishment, which he didn’t do.

As far as a purgatory goes, I don’t believe in it because it’s not in the Bible. I think that is a Catholic doctrine, and I don’t have anything to do with the Catholic church because of the inquisition, the crusades, etc.

To sum up my personal beliefs, the best that I can come up with is that eternal death is for those that reject Christ, while eternal life is for those who accept him. Now is when you get the nitty gritty of your answer. I have a hard time believing that God would reject any sincere seeker after Him. The question is, are you truly seeking after God, or you seeking after your own will? I came to God after many dead ends, but I was always seeking after Him, even when I didn’t know I was. Can it be that you are doing the same?

As far as a person living a “good” life apart from Christ, I don’t believe it is possible. We are all sinful and by nature do what is right in our own eyes. That is the beauty of the gospel, we don’t have to be good, we just have to believe. I was not and am not good, but God accepts me anyway. Do you want that, too?

With love,

Barbara


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dom
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

 

 

And this brings me to pecking out the eyes of Jesus. Liber AL is a remarkable text in that it seems to function as a Mandala. Well, it is a book which purports to “explain the Universe.” In its economy of language, it specifies 2 things in the (in)famous “Jesus” verse. Horus (the new incoming Initiatory Power) pecks at the EYES and he does so as Jesus HANGS UPON THE CROSS. The Eyes are the outlook into the external world and they must be removed that the mind may turn inward toward Spiritual Reality (into ITSELF). Horus destroys the outlook of Vicarious Atonement. The crucifixion means something ELSE. In Thelema, one is not debased but rises up through confining systems of debasement into a self-shining dignity as a Star within the Body of God. And, ultimately, one realizes their Union with that Body Itself.

 

What of Buddha and Buddhism?  That is 3:53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

 

Christ and Buddha are basically saying the same thing about the Kingdom of Heaven.   Socially both were royalty whether that's significant I'm not sure, probably is.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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“Christ and Buddha are basically saying the same thing about the Kingdom of Heaven. “

According to the Christian view Buddhists will go to the Christian hell.
The Buddha achieved enlightenment without God or Jesus prior to the advent of Jesus and wasn’t even baptized.
He taught making a distinction from wrong views to right views, right understanding and right insight into skillful and unskilful means.
Not the hinderance of views that hold a moral obligation, a moral law, a rule laid down by god for his chattel;
In which one does something not so much because it is good or because one is responsible, but because it is commanded.
He showed a way between eternalism and nihlism.
If the Buddha gets in the way remove him.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

My first prayer was, “God, if you exist, you can have my life because I’ve f—d it up so badly that I don’t want it anymore.” Well, that was 41 years ago, and I’ve never looked back.

That (your "fucked up life") was not exactly a propitious sacrificial offering then...

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Now I take the word death literally. When the Bible says “The wages of sin is death” I believe that it means death.  ...  To sum up my personal beliefs, the best that I can come up with is that eternal death is for those that reject Christ, while eternal life is for those who accept him. Now is when you get the nitty gritty of your answer. I have a hard time believing that God would reject any sincere seeker after Him. 

Again, there is no discrimination between 'sinners'.  It seems you don't have to be "good" to have "the good (after)life", but just believe in the Bible stories as the Truth.  So therefore child murderers and simple non-believers would all suffer the same fate, Karma effectively in the wastepaper basket? What if that was all the miserable sinners wanted (having a death-wish, to die) anyway? They would get exactly what they wanted... would that be right? Would that be just?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

The question is, are you truly seeking after God, or you seeking after your own will?

Some would argue these are one and the same.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I came to God after many dead ends, but I was always seeking after Him, even when I didn’t know I was. Can it be that you are doing the same?

Well I wouldn't know, if I didn't know now, would I?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

That is the beauty of the gospel, we don’t have to be good, we just have to believe. I was not and am not good, but God accepts me anyway. Do you want that, too?

I cannot believe that creation could be so simple facile.  I think what I would want, in that scenario, would be some idea of supernal "justice" at least...

N Joy


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @barbaragreen

To sum up my personal beliefs, the best that I can come up with is that eternal death is for those that reject Christ, while eternal life is for those who accept him.

Is this really the final goal then, the whole point of it all as you see it: just to live forever?  As I believe ignant made the point some while back, don't you think this might all get a little, ah - boring after a while, and in the end some kind of an excruciating torment in itself?

N Joy


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @barbaragreen

To sum up my personal beliefs, the best that I can come up with is that eternal death is for those that reject Christ, while eternal life is for those who accept him.

Is this really the final goal then, the whole point of it all as you see it: just to live forever?  As I believe ignant made the point some while back, don't you think this might all get a little, ah - boring after a while, and in the end some kind of an excruciating torment in itself?

N Joy

Yeah but your version of living and Ignant's version is not the real living that Barbara and Christ are talking about.  

In other words boredom is for sinners I.e. those lost in darkness.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Yeah but your version of living and Ignant's version is not the real living that Barbara and Christ are talking about.

Oh, really?! I'd be interested to know what this "real living" consists of then, and exactly how it would differ from all sorts of normal living in that case?

Posted by: @dom

In other words boredom is for sinners

B-But according to Barbara, everybody is chock full of sin, though!  As in:

Posted by: @barbaragreen

We are all sinful

The question it therefore begs is: who comes to be "saved", and why?

N Joy


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ignant666
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Posted by: @dom

real living

Harps and nighties, and beasts full of eyes* saying "Holy, holy, holy", i am guessing.

Prone as he is to these sudden enthusiasms, i am thinking david is due for a "Road to Damascus" type experience any minute now.

--------

*Can it be that YHVH = Cthulhu?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

He (Bud) taught making a distinction from wrong views to right views, 
Not the hinderance of views that hold a moral obligation, a moral law, a rule laid down by god for his chattel;

Um, it seems like you're saying Buddha and Jesus were not basically saying the same thing. Since Buddhism is centered on Nirvana (in the here and now), and Christianity revolves around Rewards (in the hereafter), I guess you are right.

Digging deeper (which means pushing away the organized religion), and looking at the supposed casual conversations of these two Adepts, we find that their simple comments do, in fact, resemble instructions for obtaining wu-wei. We may now invoke the presence of Saint Lao, who says the same thing to join the holy triad of people who say the same thing.

Siddhartha and Emmanuel spoke about non-attachment. That's their commonality. Their chattering Chatterley, the resulting organized religions, have overlaid so much dogmatic nonsense that a great distinction arises. Nobody attacks or contrasts Saint Lao, although I understand even modern Taoism is split into two camps: The dog-ma-tistists and the pure-ists. The dogs practice rules, while the pure practice wu-wei. Since wu-wei trumps all these other concepts, the moral of the comparative theology is clear.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Is this really the final goal then, the whole point of it all as you see it: just to live forever? 

Most western religious sects and cults, such as Christianity and Muslimism are based on living forever. Immortality is the goal of those seekers who want to be with their family, friends, and dogs on a permanent basis. I believe fear of death is the motivating factor for buying into belief systems that offer no proof of reality.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

Yeah but your version of living and Ignant's version is not the real living that Barbara and Christ are talking about.

Oh, really?! I'd be interested to know what this "real living" consists of then, and exactly how it would differ from all sorts of normal living in that case?

 

You were discussing an erroneous statement.  The idea that Christ (or any prophet who understands a little) get it wrong when they say aspire to eternality because that ( sat-cit-ānanda leads to 'boredom'.  

 

Dafuck?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

You were discussing an erroneous statement

We [those posting] often do here.

Posted by: @dom

The idea that Christ (or any prophet who understands a little) get it wrong when they say aspire to eternality because that ( sat-cit-ānanda) leads to 'boredom'. 

I'm not sure if I correctly understood your tortuous English, but you seem to be saying that Christ, etc must never be bored, and even though I still don't see what you mean by "real (human) living"?

Posted by: @dom

Dafuck?

Who he then, another prophet?

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Who he then, another prophet?

Dafuck Gibraltar Guru Jones, sometimes known as Adi-Da, or several other exhalted names was an Avatar, not a Profit.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I'm not sure if I correctly understood your tortuous English, but you seem to be saying that Christ, etc must never be bored, and even though I still don't see what you mean by "real (human) living"?

Well it was crystal clear so I can't help you there.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Well it was crystal clear

Yeah, "crystal clear to me [=you]" you mean...

Unfortunately I am not a mind-reader (well, of your rather inscrutable & mercurial mind at least).

N Joy


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

Um, it seems like you're saying Buddha and Jesus were not basically saying the same thing. Since Buddhism is centered on Nirvana (in the here and now), and Christianity revolves around Rewards (in the hereafter), I guess you are right.

When Dom initially interjected with “What about Buddhism” my first thought was that Horus is an equal opportunity attacker. As much as he may seem “Anti-Christ” with the shocking eyeball verse, he bitch slaps Mohamed and has Buddha and others for lunch. I seem to recall Crowley saying that Mohamed got off easy as Islam seemed to resemble Thelema most in the world of comparative religion (And yeah...I'd personally take the feathered facial flap over a grapefruit spoon to the orbital socket myself). But the point in this sequence of Horusian/Heruvian attacks seems to be the destruction of degenerative contagions in religion. Buddhism HAS been subjected to “crapulous creeds” but this has no bearing on the Bodhichitta or its Source (which, as Hui Neng might remind us, is “No Source”).

 

I thought hysterical the above revelation that a certain religious organization had special classes to help members get in touch with their “Inner Anti-Christ” lest they, poor sheep that they are, might fall prey to that dangerous and pernicious threat of (gasp) “Crypto-Christianity!”

 

My personal views, which I continue to expound piecemeal, do not see Mystic Christianity as based in Pascal's Wager. Rather, Jesus simply declared that the Kingdom of Heaven is WITHIN YOU. No use looking outward or into some vague future which can only lead one from the NOW wherein all things are found.

 

The notion of harps and “nighties” as Eternal Reward is amusing. No, Heaven won't be “boring.” Heaven is the State of Illumined Consciousness which we may enter in the fallen here and now. Some will need to wait until the Bardo Bounce. Others will return for another quarter dropped into the Game of Life. But this State of Mind (“Heaven”) will make of an aspirant a Bodhisattva. And just as we pass from stage to stage in our seemingly singular lives, we do so through Eternity. We rise and rest and reinterpret and SPIRAL OUT.

 

“Energy is Eternal Delight.” - William Blake


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

Well it was crystal clear

Yeah, "crystal clear to me [=you]" you mean...

Unfortunately I am not a mind-reader (well, of your rather inscrutable & mercurial mind at least).

N Joy

Mercurial?  I've quoted Christ and Liber Legis both over the years here.

 

By the way you and Ignant were teasing Barbara i.e. joking when you say that eternal life (in the kingdom of Heaven) would be boring?    Apologies I thought you were genuinely disputing the great traditions when they all take about eternity and attainment e.g. 

AL 2:44. Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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“ help members get in touch with their “Inner Anti-Christ” lest they, poor sheep that they are, might fall prey to that dangerous and pernicious threat of (gasp) “Crypto-Christianity!” “

The Serpent seduced man away from God, cutting through, to show things as they really are; the cause of mental formations, the motivation and source in which arise effect.
ijtihad


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

Mercurial?

adj., "subject to sudden or unpredictable changes of mind or mood" (from the Oxford English Dictionary) e.g., re Leary.

Posted by: @tiger

ijtihad

The OED doesn't list this "word".

N Joy


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Tiger
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@jamiejbarter
ijtihad =
independent effort applying careful reason in order to uncover knowledge and interpretations of problems not precisely covered by scripture.


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dom
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @dom

Mercurial?

adj., "subject to sudden or unpredictable changes of mind or mood" (from the Oxford English Dictionary) e.g., re Leary.

 

Yes I know what it means, you're wrong to use that term for moi, maybe in the past yeah.  Anyway that was why I used the question mark.  Maybe you knew that all along and you're just playing games to relieve your boredom.  That would be tragic I hope that's not the case.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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faustian
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Of course the bottom line issue between Thelema and traditional patriarchal religions, but Christianity in particular, is the issue of subordination. It is not that Thelema is insubordinate but rather it is non-subordinate. In a subordination ideology, humans are organized hierarchically as a means of societal survival. This was presumably necessary in an agricultural setting, but the Information Age has changed all that. Thelema offers a more peer to peer approach. 


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christibrany
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@faustian

 

I would say 'mostly true' but also 'yes and no.'

What about the grade system and the sephira on the tree of life?

That is hierarchical to a degree. No pun intended.

Obviously as we have discussed here we bounce back and forth between malkuth and more exalted states, and the ease at which we can attain them, but one who can attain the K and C of the HGA may be said to be 'above' one who cannot astrally project yet?

 

Slippery subject. 


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faustian
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@christibrany What I meant to say is that under Thelema a privilege based relationship between humans is not hierarchical. In other words, it is not based a human's ability to act in a subordinate fashion even to a meta-physical concept like a god.

Think of the old Jewish Joke - 

One Yom Kippur, in a little shul in Gunnysack, New York, the rabbi stops in the middle of the Musaf service, prostrates himself beside the bima, and cries out, "O God. Before You, I am nothing!"

The chazan is so moved by this demonstration of piety that he immediately follows suit, throwing himself to the floor beside the rabbi and crying, "O God! Before you, I am nothing!"

In the ensuing silence, a shuffling is heard in the back row. Saul Blumenthal jumps from his seat, prostrates himself in the isle and cries, "O God! Before You, I am nothing!"

Seeing this, the chazan nudges the rabbi and whispers, "So look who thinks he's nothing?"

 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @faustian

privilege based relationship between humans is not hierarchical. In other words, it is not based a human's ability to act in a subordinate fashion even to a meta-physical concept like a god.

Thank you for clarifying, yes I agree wholeheartedly.   We aren't subordinate, we are equals with differing amounts of experience.  LOL good joke.  But they misspelt aisle.  😐 

 

Happy Hannukah. 


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wellreadwellbred
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JJ Barter: "Is this really the final goal then, the whole point of it all as you see it: just to live forever?  As I believe ignant made the point some while back, don't you think this might all get a little, ah - boring after a while, and in the end some kind of an excruciating torment in itself?

N Joy" 

Barter, so the eternal journey mentioned in the holy scriptures of Crowley's Thelema, you don't find that to "... get a little, ah - boring after a while, and in the end some kind of an excruciating torment in itself?":

"17.Also the Holy One came upon me, and I beheld a white swan floating in the blue.

18.Between its wings I sate, and the æons fled away.

19.Then the swan flew and dived and soared, yet no whither we went.

20.A little crazy boy that rode with me spake unto the swan, and said:

21.Who art thou that dost float and fly and dive and soar in the inane? Behold, these many æons have passed; whence camest thou? Whither wilt thou go?

22.And laughing I chid him, saying: No whence! No whither!

23.The swan being silent, he answered: Then, if with no goal, why this eternal journey?

24.And I laid my head against the Head of the Swan, and laughed, saying: Is there not joy ineffable in this aimless winging? Is there not weariness and impatience for who would attain to some goal?

25.And the swan was ever silent. Ah! but we floated in the infinite Abyss. Joy! Joy! White swan, bear thou ever me up between thy wings!"

(Source: Book 65, Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente (An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel), chapter 2.)

Or is it the case, that you just prefer this concept of the eternal mentioned in Crowley's Thelema, and do not prefer the concept of eternal life as used within Christianity?


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dom
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk
 
When Dom initially interjected with “What about Buddhism” my first thought was that Horus is an equal opportunity attacker. As much as he may seem “Anti-Christ” with the shocking eyeball verse, he bitch slaps Mohamed and has Buddha and others for lunch. I seem to recall Crowley saying that Mohamed got off easy as Islam seemed to resemble Thelema most in the world of comparative religion (And yeah...I'd personally take the feathered facial flap over a grapefruit spoon to the orbital socket myself). But the point in this sequence of Horusian/Heruvian attacks seems to be the destruction of degenerative contagions in religion. Buddhism HAS been subjected to “crapulous creeds” but this has no bearing on the Bodhichitta or its Source (which, as Hui Neng might remind us, is “No Source”).
The attack seems to be on austere monastic Buddhism i.e. their monastic rejection of the world.
 
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The notion of harps and “nighties” as Eternal Reward is amusing. No, Heaven won't be “boring.” Heaven is the State of Illumined Consciousness which we may enter in the fallen here and now. Some will need to wait until the Bardo Bounce. Others will return for another quarter dropped into the Game of Life. But this State of Mind (“Heaven”) will make of an aspirant a Bodhisattva. And just as we pass from stage to stage in our seemingly singular lives, we do so through Eternity. We rise and rest and reinterpret and SPIRAL OUT.

 

“Energy is Eternal Delight.” - William Blake

Yes as in Christ's Kingdom of Heaven.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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@wellreadwellbred

 

Dear watery-bread. You are of course delineating between a Theological Heaven Everlasting Life scenario and a Part-of-Your-Soul is there -but-part is Not (hyphens ugh) scenario in Thelema ? Yes? 

 

Ku, Khabs, Ka, Ego, Id, Soul, Astral body, etc 


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ignant666
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What exactly about eternal life is desirable? Whether spent wearing a nightie playing a harp and listening to beasts full of eyes saying "Holy holy holy", or in "aimless winging" "in the inane", it does not appeal.

As another "holy scripture", "Ace Of Spades", by St. Lemmy of Stoke-On-Trent, puts it

You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools

But that's the way I like it baby, I don't wanna live forever.

I wonder where wrwb gets the idea that there are any substantial number of posters here who regard the works of AC as "holy scriptures"?

There may be some (not me, but some) who would accord that status to AL, but does anyone anywhere seriously hold the other "Holy Books"/"Class A" books as equivalent to the "holy scriptures" of eg Islam or Xianity?


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wellreadwellbred
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Dear christian-brandy. What alternative is there to the potential boredome of  "the "Part-of-Your-Soul"-soul", potentially derived from the theology of its eternal journey within AC's Thelema? (Is the answer to this question that the "Part-of-Your-Soul" mentioned by you, does not include the part of, or the parts of, this soul, that could potentially get bored with this eternal journey??)

With respect to "the soul's" potential boredome from being or lasting forever in line with Christinity's concept of eternal life, there are many interpretations of alternatives to this eternal life as understood within this Christianity. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

The OED doesn't list this "word".

The "E" in OED stands for English. The Word of Power referenced is not an English word, so we cannot expect to find it in OED.

Posted by: @tiger

ijtihad =
independent effort applying careful reason in order to uncover knowledge and interpretations of problems not precisely covered by scripture.

Now that you have defined the word, openly, in publick, it has lost its Power. I see several more posts above. I imagine "reason" will now degenerate into Jihad.

Posted by: @faustian

Thelema is [not] insubordinate but rather it is non-subordinate. In a subordination ideology, humans are organized hierarchically as a means of societal survival. This was presumably necessary in an agricultural setting, but the Information Age has changed all that. Thelema offers a more peer to peer approach. 

A fine definition, in terms of society. For the individual, the subordination involves "You cannot know God yourself, being uneducated. Therefore we, the holy church and its priests will intercede as an intermediary for you, on your behalf. You do not need your own Angel, we will do that stuff and tell you what to do. Please pay your dues in advance."

Posted by: @christibrany

I would say 'mostly true' but also 'yes and no.'

Could you kindly be more ambiguous?

Posted by: @faustian

Thelema a privilege based relationship between humans is not hierarchical.

On a one-to-one basis, this is true. The theoretical hierarchy of the A.'.A.'. is pretty much designed in this manner. But then we see that a 6=5 is specifically subordinate to his/her 7=4, and everybody is subordinate to The Big Beast and His Red Woman (as "officers of the Aeon"). This gets very subordinate, and Chris makes a good point. This is the slippery part of the subject.

To get out of this dilemma, one only needs to join the "Thelemic" Oriental Templars. There, we will start off with an Oath of Obedience. The hierarchy is as strict as the Italian Cabal. This becomes less slippery and is known as "aristocratic communism," where the arisocrats rule and the color Black can be perceived around the edges. Please pay your dues in advance ... or get evicted.

On a more Sirius note, the ideals of Thelema only come into play once one has accomplished the task of a 5=6. Before that, it's all shouted orders on the burning ground.

Posted by: @christibrany

We aren't subordinate, we are equals with differing amounts of experience.

Thelema specifically authorizes killing of "low men," who are not so equal. Every man & woman is a Star, but some Stars need annihilating. The resolution of these concepts lies in a hierarchical application, like this one ...

1. The World: Constant, endless competition and strife. You shall have danger and trouble.

2. Solar: Harmony prevails (now we're getting somewhere).

3. Supernal Stuff (S.'.S.'.): Everyone is infinite, there is no difference.

I'm sorry, but Thelema on a true peer relationship isn't going to fully manifest until everyone is a Magister. The subject is not slippery at all; it simply depends on which of the interior hierarchical zones is in play.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

and in the end some kind of an excruciating torment in itself?":

In or at The End is merely the end of the strife-strewn Aeon of Horus. Interiorly, everyone comes in through Isis (your mama), then gets organized and subjugated by the Osirian Establishment (mandatory education - your daddy). Rising into adulthood is the entry into the so-called "real life," and if the individual really becomes self-reliant, then Horus is manifest. Many folks never get out of the Osiris subjugation.

So what?

So, let's remember there's a fourth Aeon, a fourth degree. Anyone who can resolve the Horus/Set, conscious vs unconscious selves, or the duality of Ra-Hoor and Harpo, can pass into this fourth state at any time, inside any so-called Aeon.

This is the theme of Appendix IV in Hot Zones, coming soon, without advance or retarded (debt) dues or fees of any kind.

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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ignant666: "I wonder where wrwb gets the idea that there are any substantial number of posters here who regard the works of AC as "holy scriptures"?

There may be some (not me, but some) who would accord that status to AL, but does anyone anywhere seriously hold the other "Holy Books"/"Class A" books as equivalent to the "holy scriptures" of eg Islam or Xianity."

That number has not been measured as fas as I know, but there are many statements assuming something to be eternal, within AC's most holy book for his Thelema, The Book of the Law:

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." (II:9.), "... Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. ... (II,21.)", "May Because be accursed for ever!" (II,29), "Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu." (II,44.), "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: ... (II, 58)", "Get the stele of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple -- and that temple is already aright disposed -- & it shall be your Kiblah for ever. It shall not fade, but miraculous colour shall come back to it day after day. ... (III:10.)", "I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." (III:58.), "All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither and a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever ... " (III:39.), and "My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity." (III:59).


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dom
 dom
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Posted by: @ignant666

What exactly about eternal life is desirable?

 

 

What as in the following?;

AL 2:44. Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

That number has not been measured as fas as I know, but there are many statements assuming something to be eternal, within AC's most holy book for his Thelema, The Book of the Law

But this is all "made-up" stuff, similar to the promises made by Jesus, Mohammed, etc, and their agents. The "eternity" promised is merely experienced by getting past the Time Restriction, which implies checking in to the Binah Suite and Arms. 

The poor vehicle, down here at Malkuth is going to experience long-term death , dissolution, and recycling into other things.

The only way one is going to escape the recycler is to have sahaj (permanent) samadhi imprinted. We hear that the persona is annihilated in the Abyss. The literature suggests that this is a permanent. Guess what? This is bullshit. The persona is annihilated temporarily (only) for the duration of the transcendental state, where time is no longer a factor. This is not a permanent annihilation, because when one comes back, the same old stuff starts up again.

Sahaj Samadhi is permanent. It relates to Kether. There is much evidence that AC never got Sahajed, so don't look to his later years for evidence that he was in eternal or infinite bliss.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." (II:9.), "... Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. ... (II,21.)", "May Because be accursed for ever!" (II,29), "Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu." (II,44.), "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: ... (II, 58)", "Get the stele of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple -- and that temple is already aright disposed -- & it shall be your Kiblah for ever. It shall not fade, but miraculous colour shall come back to it day after day. ... (III:10.)", "I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." (III:58.), "All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither and a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever ... " (III:39.), and "My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity." (III:59).

This is, after all, the Christianity/Thelema thread, so you get to respond by quoting endless quotes, just like the Christian lady, and all Christians, do. Do you have some personal, direct experience to relate on these matters?

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

That number has not been measured as fas as I know, but there are many statements assuming something to be eternal, within AC's most holy book for his Thelema, The Book of the Law

But this is all "made-up" stuff, similar to the promises made by Jesus, Mohammed, etc, and their agents. The "eternity" promised is merely experienced by getting past the Time Restriction, which implies checking in to the Binah Suite and Arms. 

The poor vehicle, down here at Malkuth is going to experience long-term death , dissolution, and recycling into other things.

The only way one is going to escape the recycler is to have sahaj (permanent) samadhi imprinted. We hear that the persona is annihilated in the Abyss. The literature suggests that this is a permanent. Guess what? This is bullshit. The persona is annihilated temporarily (only) for the duration of the transcendental state, where time is no longer a factor. This is not a permanent annihilation, because when one comes back, the same old stuff starts up again.

Sahaj Samadhi is permanent. It relates to Kether. There is much evidence that AC never got Sahajed, so don't look to his later years for evidence that he was in eternal or infinite bliss.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." (II:9.), "... Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. ... (II,21.)", "May Because be accursed for ever!" (II,29), "Aye! feast! rejoice! there is no dread hereafter. There is the dissolution, and eternal ecstasy in the kisses of Nu." (II,44.), "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: ... (II, 58)", "Get the stele of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple -- and that temple is already aright disposed -- & it shall be your Kiblah for ever. It shall not fade, but miraculous colour shall come back to it day after day. ... (III:10.)", "I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." (III:58.), "All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither and a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever ... " (III:39.), and "My incense is of resinous woods & gums; and there is no blood therein: because of my hair the trees of Eternity." (III:59).

This is, after all, the Christianity/Thelema thread, so you get to respond by quoting endless quotes, just like the Christian lady, and all Christians, do. Do you have some personal, direct experience to relate on these matters?

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Do you have some personal, direct experience to relate on these matters?"

Yes, I experienced the OTO gifting me with Book 65, Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente (An account of the relations of the aspirant and his Holy Guardian Angel), in which "this eternal journey" is mentioned. And my experience is also that your relations to your Holy Guardian Angel is important within AC's Thelema, and I notice that this book about the HGA, also presumes something eternal, called "this eternal journey".

 


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hadgigegenraum
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@shiva

Thanks for the epistle...as always!

Now perhaps Barbara might want to chime in as regards a personal reflection, so rather than spiritual nomenclature can we actual speak to what you have requested of wellbredwellread to thus test certain statements against what might be otherwise.

Thus when you state: "The poor vehicle, down here at Malkuth is going to experience long-term death, dissolution, and recycling into other things."....I would posit, though am not theologically certain, that the 'Christian' might posit this to be a false narrative of the world, for if one is reborn in Christ, the death is overcome as it has been passed through...and there is that which remains. 

Thus that is the question or rather the experiment, as we must add science to our religion....and thus, beyond some affidavit, from Christians and or Thelemites,...method or grace or both!

 


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