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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Instead of paying $175 directly to Tiger, I offer free promotion of Tiger's contributions in the thread titled Fulfilling John's Revelation?

That contribution is (c)opyrighted by LAShTAL.com and by Tiger his-self. Don't try to wiggle out of it.

Now we see, not through allegory, but by an actual example, why "Fees and Dues must be paid in advance."

 


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Tiger
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posted by wellreadwellbred
I don't find the Jesus of the synoptic gospels, and the Aleister Crowley identifying himself as a prophet of Thelema, to have much in common, except for them both, according to my observasions, being wandering apocalyptic prophets, and them both identifying themselves as being sent to proclaim an apocalyptic (adjective 1 of or like an apocalypse; affording a revelation or prophecy.

Jesus came to save man from the "great day of God, the Almighty" in which God pours out his just and holy wrath in a End-of-the-world final confrontation with the creations that do not listen to him.

The Beast was a herald to the end of the ministry of bigotry with its doctrine of the estrangement of the divine idea affixing itself into a divided self; opposing the rights of women because eve was created out of Adam for Adam, and not the other way around; rejecting sex for purposes other than procreation, and denying evolution.


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Yes they both wandered around, spouting apocalyptic ("revealing") prose.

The difference between the two fellows lies in this distinction.

Jesus asked us to believe, and to look forward to redemption in the afterlife.

AC demanded that we not believe, and to get with it in the here-and-now.

 

Liber Legis  also has afterlife promises of eternity (in the kisses of Nu).

They (AC and JC) both "demanded that we ...get with it in the here-and-now" though.  There are instructions given by Christ in the New Testament about prayer i.e meditation i.e 'the work.'  Yes although he made afterlife promises Jesus's Kingdom of Heaven is the "Zen NOW"....  you said yourself (earlier in the thread)  that all faiths lead to the same thing.......work/action.  No work?  Expect to become worthless like salt that  has lost it's flavour and gets thrown out into the street etc if no work is done.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Liber Legis  also has afterlife promises of eternity (in the kisses of Nu).

Everybody wants to live forever.

Posted by: @dom

the New Testament about prayer i.e meditation i.e 'the work.' 

We can pretend that prater is the same thing as meditation and "the work."

In fact, a prayer that become a dhyana would qualify for equality.

But that is mostly an abstract notion that could, and probably should, be assigned to some abstract plane high up on the Tree.

In practical matters, down here in Malkuth-town, "prayer" means wishful thinking, and "meditation" (dhyana) means loss of the sense of Self.

I have yet to see, or know, a Christian who describes loss of the sense of Self as a result of their prayer. Not that it can't happen, and undoubtedly has happened to someone somewhere along the line, but our average Christian always wants to quote scripture and rarely describes The Vision of ADNI.

Yes, Jesus gave instruction for the here-and-now. Give your money to Caesar, Give your coat away if somebody asks for it. Be like the lilies in the field. Good advice, actually, but just as complex as advising a person to engage in wu-wei

I suppose every set of opposites can either be held up as a distinction (a difference) or can be shown to be the same thing. Down here, the differences are always exploited (give money to my special interest please) and the unity (no difference) is never displayed. Always and Never are relative, extreme (but very common) terms - there are (rare) exceptions to every rule.

Posted by: @dom

he made afterlife promises Jesus's Kingdom of Heaven is the "Zen NOW"....  you said yourself (earlier in the thread)

Right.

Posted by: @dom

that all faiths lead to the same thing

Right. Scrape way the paint, glue, and glitter stuck to the various "faiths," and AC (in his higher mode), Jesus (apparently all the time), and the Zen guy, are just three voices explaining the same thing. But that would be up at Binah, wouldn't it?, where there is no difference.

From Chesed, and looking down, these are just three different schools of thought, and they hardly get along.

It seems as though you are trying to say that all three guys are the same. This may be true for their internal state (when they are in it), but when they run their mouths or pens, something different comes out, and it gets even worse when adherents get involved in explaining the words of some dead person.

Different levels = different interpretations.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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[Emphasis added by me:]

dom: "Liber Legis also has afterlife promises of eternity (in the kisses of Nu)."

Shiva: "Everybody wants to live forever."

No, not everybody wants to live forever. When you attain Nirvana in the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, it means that you upon death will never be reborn in any realm [of existence] or world [of existence], having wholly escaped saṃsāra, the wheel of existence (Bhavacakra), the suffering-laden cycle of life, death, and rebirth, without beginning or end. 

Charles Henry Allan Bennett (1872-1923) was the second Englishman to be ordained as a Buddhist monk (Bhikkhu) of the Theravada tradition and was instrumental in introducing Buddhism in England. Aleister Crowley and Bennet were friends, from their time as members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. After Bennet was ordained as a Buddhist of the Theravada tradition, he was visited in the Far East for some time by Aleister Crowley, and the latter in 1903 wrote Science and Buddhism, in which he declared himself as a buddhist with an empirical approach to its teachings.  

My impression is that the first chapter on Nuit, the second chapter on Hadit, and the statements "Then saith the prophet and slave of the beauteous one: Who am I, and what shall be the sign? So she answered him, bendingdown, a lambent flame of blue, all-touching, all penetrant, her lovely hands upon the black earth, & her lithe body arched for love, and her soft feet not hurting the little flowers: Thou knowest! And the sign shall be my ecstasy, the consciousness of the continuity of existence, the omnipresence of my body." and "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." (I:26. and III:9.) within his The Book of the Law supposedly written in 1904, are Aleister Crowley's detailed refutation of Buddhisms three marks of existence: 

"In Buddhism, the three marks of existence are three characteristics (Pali: tilakkhaṇa; Sanskrit: त्रिलक्षण, trilakṣaṇa) of all existence and beings, namely impermanence (aniccā), non-self (anattā) and unsatisfactoriness or suffering (duḥkha)." (Source:  Three marks of existence From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence   )


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wellreadwellbred
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Me: "Instead of paying $175 directly to Tiger, I offer free promotion of Tiger's contributions in the thread titled Fulfilling John's Revelation?"

Shiva: "That contribution is (c)opyrighted by LAShTAL.com and by Tiger his-self. Don't try to wiggle out of it. Now we see, not through allegory, but by an actual example, why "Fees and Dues must be paid in advance.""

The following quotes indicates that both JC & AC intended to freely give to others the message they were proclaiming: 

The Christian Bible, Matthew 10:7-8, King James Version: "7. [..] as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

AC's The Book of the Law, Chapter 3, verse 39.: "... to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!"

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The following quotes indicates that both JC & AC intended to freely give

I see. You are going to wiggle out of it. 


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dom
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Posted by: @shiva

We can pretend that prayer is the same thing as meditation and "the work."

In fact, a prayer that become a dhyana would qualify for equality.

But that is mostly an abstract notion that could, and probably should, be assigned to some abstract plane high up on the Tree.

In practical matters, down here in Malkuth-town, "prayer" means wishful thinking, and "meditation" (dhyana) means loss of the sense of Self.

I have yet to see, or know, a Christian who describes loss of the sense of Self as a result of their prayer. Not that it can't happen, and undoubtedly has happened to someone somewhere along the line, but our average Christian always wants to quote scripture and rarely describes The Vision of ADNI.

Yes, Jesus gave instruction for the here-and-now. Give your money to Caesar, Give your coat away if somebody asks for it. Be like the lilies in the field. Good advice, actually, but just as complex as advising a person to engage in wu-wei

 

Yeah I never saw A manual of how to get to the Kingdom of Heaven in 8 steps, author Christ, J.  Step 1 asana was known by J.C. I'm sure he would've picked up on Psalm 46:10 , "Be still, and know that I am God."

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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christibrany
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Posted by: @dom

"Be still, and know that I am God."

Like, perhaps, like, saying ' Be still in your asana and know that you are God' 

 

if you want to be. 

 

And stop being so lazy. 

 

like 


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dom
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Christ Our Lord and Saviour's teachings have a theme i.e Karma.  Sometimes it's direct and sometimes indirect. 
 
Posted by: @christibrany

 

Like, perhaps, like, saying ' Be still in your asana and know that you are God'  

Why overplay it by adding the word 'asana'?  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

Why overplay it by adding the word 'asana'?  

The esoteric reading of the scriptures does not need to amplify the verse ala Crowley. Trungpa spoke of both Meditation and post-Meditation practice. Just as our pesky monkey-mind jack in the box becomes PART of our meditation so does post-Meditation-in which case we are churned into the hustle and bustle of workaday life and strife. It's here “in the field” that we “extend meditation” into stillness. I'm quite fond of Manly Hall's description of Zen as “Intensity without Tension.” We might call up other words to describe “Stillness in the World.” But it is in that stillness (what Blake calls “the moment Satan cannot find”) that we may know I AM (pre-conditioned awareness) as GOD. We may lose sense of self, ego etc but in the reflex (where we snap back into our sense of individuality) we do so with a keen awareness of being a unique vessel or vehicle for the outflowing of that Power via a Creative Matrix (i.e. The ONE manifesting/emanating into Barbelo and thence to Autogenes etc). There is a sense of the multiplicity of One Consciousness which is, fundamentally, our own. We rise into this space or Gnosis via The Voice of the Silence. Thus, Neville Goddard would end all of his talks (always circling about the Gospel of I AM) with “Let us go into the Silence.”

 

Back breaking postures optional.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Back breaking postures optional.

My contortions always hit me in the ankles.

 


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Tiger
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wellreadwellbred will wiggle out of and wiggle in whatever he wants to.

du kha - prefix du means incorrect unsound. suffix kkha = wheel (cakkra) = ill fitting chariot wheel = an uneasy, uncomfortable jarring disharmonious for a journey
Anicca Things in life are always changing, nothing stays the same as everything is subject to change.
Anatta - There is no fixed sense of self because everything is constantly changing.

Some of the mental factors or concomitants (cetasika) and aggregates heaps of formations, put togethers (skandhas) include
du kha - prefix du means incorrect unsound. suffix kkha = wheel (cakkra) = ill fitting chariot wheel = an uneasy, uncomfortable jarring disharmonious journey
which eventually give rise to
Sarddha - devotion, trust, heart confidence, a lifting up in higher values.
Sukha - meditative absorptions, and intra-psychic phenomena
Piti - ecstatic joy
Passaddhi - rapture beyond innervations
knowledge of the causal mechanism by which becoming forms - Bodhi
Not restricting the ecstasies of the goddess but becoming intimately familiar with her play, sport, drama - Lila
Awakening the Kia JeeZos PhaRos seed
Hows that for a jiggle ?

image

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Michael Staley
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I've been interested in Eastern Mysticism for as long as I can remember. I don't think there's any contradiction between Buddhism and Thelema. In my opinion, the Buddha is universal consciousness, and Thelema implies universal will or, iin other terminology, the Will of God.

Then again, my preference is for the Mahayana rather than the Hinayana, and in particular with the Prajnaparamita texts; much as I think more highly of the sublimity of the first chapter of AL.

My bad, I expect; I probably haven't struck "hard and low" at enough beggars to have an informed view.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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In his Confessions, chapter 4, AC mentions an incident when he was a teenager, and an older relative named John lived with his family. When this relative explained to AC that he was afraid he was "not all right with Christ"., he describes already then hearing the voice of his "unconscious self": 

"... though I was a peculiarly shy boy not yet sixteen. I told him plainly that the whole thing was nonsense, that Christ was a fable, that there was no such thing as sin, and that he ought to thank his stars that he had lived his whole life away from the hypocritical crew of trembling slaves who believed in such nonsense. Already my unconscious self was singing in my ears [...]".

AC does in his The New Comment to I:7. "Behold! it is revealed by Aiwass the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat.", describe terms like "Hoor-paar-kraat" and "Holy Guardian Angel" as almost synonymous with "the Unconscious” of Freud":

"Hoor-paar-Kraat or Harpocrates, [...] is not merely the God of Silence in a conventional sense. He represents [...] the Holy Guardian Angel. [...] He is almost "the Unconscious” of Freud, unknown, unaccountable, the silent Spirit, blowing “whither it listeth, but thou canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth”. It commands with absolute authority when it appears at all, despite conscious reason and judgment.

And AC does in his The New Comment to III:2. "There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known. Spelling is defunct; all is not aught. Beware! Hold! Raise the spell of Ra-Hoor-Khuit!", use the terms "True or Unconscious Will", as synonymous with "Silent Self" and "Holy Guardian Angel":

"We have to thank Freud – and especially Jung – for stating this part of the Magical Doctrine so plainly, as also for their development of the connexion of the Will of this 'child' with the True or Unconscious Will, and so for clarifying our doctrine of the 'Silent Self' or 'Holy Guardian Angel'."

AC's description of hearing his "unconscious self" singing in his ears when he was not yet sixteen, rejecting J. Christ as a fable, and rejecting the Christian concept of sin, foreshadows a later rejection of Jesus Christ on the cross, and a later rejection of the Christian concept of sin, of core importance to his self-presentation as the prophet of Thelema. 

Namely his description of being given his Thelema's The Book of the Law from the mouth of Aiwass (a play-on-words for "I was") to his ear[-s], a book where this play-on-words for "I was", is described as "the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat." That is, AC was "the minister" of the within his The Book of the Law mentioned "Hoor-paar-kraat", the latter explained by himself as almost synonymous with "the Unconscious” of Freud". Or in other words, AC himself was the minister of something almost synonymous with what S. Freud would have described as his "Unconscious”.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Is it a common position among the adherents of Aleister Crowley's Thelema, that they have a powerful protection?

Maybe "I am powerful to protect my servant" (AL 3:42) is intended to reassure the minds of those more liable to being open to fearful reactions?  Protection would be unnecessary (but automatic once regarded in that way) if the 'adherent' was actually following his/her true will, which would be coterminous with the inertia of the universe/ 'divine' will.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

... this [Psychology] Guild [of Ordo Templi Orientis] presents the Pastoral Counseling Workshop

Sounds to me like a 'sea org' sort of thing...

Posted by: @dom

He wrote something like "Happy Annihilation' on one Xmas Card i.e. it's a reference to Nirvana. 

Perhaps you mean "Wishing you a speedy termination of existence"?  (But if so, wasn't it more of a new year's greeting rather than a message on a christmas card?  I'll take your word on it advisedly that it was meant as a "reference to Nirvana".)

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred - quoting AC

"Holy Guardian Angel" as almost synonymous with "the Unconscious” of Freud"

Almost? Maybe. If we switch over to Jung, we find that the Anima is exactly syno-nomous with the HGA.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred - quoting AC

"We have to thank Freud – and especially Jung – for stating this part of the Magical Doctrine so plainly ..."

Aha!

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

the mouth of Aiwass (a play-on-words for "I was")

Well, yes, they are pronounced the same, but the play-on-words is in your mind, and the minds of others, as it makes no sense. This is not unusual.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Or in other words, AC himself was the minister of something almost synonymous with what S. Freud would have described as his "Unconscious”.

Yes, you have mentioned this association three or four or five times in a single post. What is your point?


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wellreadwellbred
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More similarities between JC & AC:

II:45. "There is death for the dogs." The Old Comment[:] "45. Those without our Circle of ecstasy do indeed die. Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust."

"Nothing can save the world but the universal acceptance of the Law of Thelema as the sole and sufficient basis of conduct. Its truth is self-evident. It is as susceptible of the strictest mathematical demonstration as any other theorem in biology. It admits that each member of the human race is unique, sovereign and responsible only to himself. In this way it is the logical climax of the idea of democracy. Yet at the same time it is the climax of aristocracy by asserting each individual equally to be the centre of the universe. When, therefore, it comes to the question of the relations between groups, those truths whose utterance has smashed all theories of government lose their destructive qualities. The Law of Thelema does not require the individual to behave himself because God set the squire and the parson to boss him. In obeying the law of his country he is fighting for his own hand. Modern social unrest is largely due to misunderstanding of the Law of Thelema. [...] The Book of the Law was given to mankind chiefly in order to provide it with an impeccable principle of practical politics. I regard this as more important for the moment than its function as a guide in its evolution towards conscious godhead." (Source: Aleister Crowley's Confessions, Part Six: At the Abbey of Thelema, chapter 87, page 849.)

[JC believed that] "... people who didn't make it into the Kingdom we're going to be destroyed and so Jesus did not believe in eternal torment, but he did believe that there's a possibilty for people to have an Utopian existence here on earth."  (Source: From 57:48 within "Life after Death in the Bible and Beyond with OUP", on youtube.com. "Clare Castro, Marketing Manager for Oxford University Press, facilitates an interview with Dr. Bart D. Ehrman on April 20, 2020, via Zoom. The subject was titled "Life after Death in the Bible and Beyond"".)


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Yes, you have mentioned this association three or four or five times in a single post. What is your point?"

A psychological reading of the ideas and The book of the Law shaping and informing AC's Thelema, a reading implying that much of this Thelema pertains mostly to AC himself in particular, and that much of it pertains less to all other individuals in general.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

and that much of it pertains less to all other individuals in general.

Generalities won't cut it. I either need passages directly mentioning "Frater Shiva" or I'll have to look elsewhere for personal guidance.

Maybe I'll find it in The Bible ... but it takes so long to read that compilation of biased intent that I cannot even imagine getting around to it.

I am lost. Do you have specific instructions aimed directly at me?


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Maybe I'll find it [personal guidance] in The Bible ... but it takes so long to read that compilation of biased intent that I cannot even imagine getting around to it."

Why not try an audio book version of the Christian Bible, that way you can do something usefull on your property or elsewhere, while at the same time "... getting around to it [= getting through the Christian Bible]."

 

JC is described as a healer in the Gospels in the Christian Bible. Digging through old threads on this site, I found one containing a posting mentioning AC healing someone (Frank Bennet (1868 – 1930)) using initiatory techniques, referring to AC's Confessions, Chapter 90. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/magick/is-there-a-difference-between-magical-initiation-and-psychotherapy/ - - - Is there a difference between magical initiation and psychotherapy?, page 1.)

It might be the case that Barabara Green can take some comfort from that the followers of JC called him the messiah already during his lifetime, as explained in the following quoted from CHAPTER 3 Did Jesus Think He Was God? in Bart D. Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God - The Exaltation of o Jewish Preacher from Galilee:

"If belief that Jesus had died for sins and been raised from the dead would not make any Jew think that he therefore must be the messiah, how do we account for the fact that Christians immediately started proclaiming — not despite his death, but because of his death — that he was the messiah? The only plausible explanation is that they called Jesus this after his death because they were calling him this before his death.

Here is what many scholars take to be the most reasonable scenario. During his life, Jesus raised hopes and expectations that he might be the messiah. His disciples expected great things from him. Possibly he would raise an army. Possibly he would call down the wrath of God on the enemy. But he would do something and would be the future ruler of Israel. The crucifixion completely disconfirmed this idea and showed the disciples just how wrong they were. Jesus was killed by his enemies, so he wasn’t the messiah after all. But then they came to believe that Jesus had been raised from the dead, and this reconfirmed what had earlier been disconfirmed. He really is the messiah. But not in the way we thought!

I will pursue this line of thinking in the next two chapters, as I explore belief in Jesus’s resurrection. At this stage I want simply to make the most basic point. Jesus’s followers must have considered him to be the messiah in some sense before his death, because nothing about his death or resurrection would have made them come up with the idea afterward. The messiah was not supposed to die or rise again."

(Source: 3 houers 19 minutes 30 seconds into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJNNg-CT7Gw - - - Bart D. Ehrman - How Jesus Became God Audiobook )


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Why not try an audio book version of the Christian Bible

I am essentially deaf, so that won't work. Try harder.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"... getting around to it [= getting through the Christian Bible]."

Oh, I already got around to getting through the Nicean Compilation. A long time ago. I have dropped in from time to time, to re-read certain parts of interest that came up in discussions, and Revelation bears re-reading to sort out who's who in the end times. I remember just a few things, and none of them seemed directed at me.

I have found Alice baley to be more revealing on Christianity than the Good Book itself. Did you know those clever fellows kept it written in Latin so the common folks couldn't even try to understand it. The Church interpreted it for them. Then Martin Luther rattled that cage, and the Guttenberg Bible, in German, hit the streets to allow personal interpretation and confusion.

I finally gave up and went over to the other side, where Lao Tzu and Fu Hsi exposed "those damn Eastern teachings." That made more sense. Then Bailey straightened out what's going on in the Christian concept, and I was found, but it has little to do with accepting Jesus, the composite figure, and makes one responsible for themselves, and some people don't like that, so they accept Jesus as their savior, in the afterlife of course.

I think the next step is to burn all the books, except mine, and cause each person to enter their own 40 days and nights in the wilderness, without audio programming.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley

I've been interested in Eastern Mysticism for as long as I can remember. I don't think there's any contradiction between Buddhism and Thelema. In my opinion, the Buddha is universal consciousness, and Thelema implies universal will or, iin other terminology, the Will of God.

Then again, my preference is for the Mahayana rather than the Hinayana, and in particular with the Prajnaparamita texts; much as I think more highly of the sublimity of the first chapter of AL.

My bad, I expect; I probably haven't struck "hard and low" at enough beggars to have an informed view.

 

What about the Tree of Life and the grades?  Is that irrelevant because it probably is to Buddhists....or is it? 

By the way I'm not trying tio be funny but are you on the right thread here this is the Christ thread not the Buddha thread? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @dom

By the way I'm not trying tio be funny but are you on the right thread here this is the Christ thread not the Buddha thread? 

You are of course quite right here dom - inadvertantly I posted to the wrong thread.


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dom
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Posted by: @michael-staley
Posted by: @dom

By the way I'm not trying tio be funny but are you on the right thread here this is the Christ thread not the Buddha thread? 

You are of course quite right here dom - inadvertantly I posted to the wrong thread.

Maybe answer those questions in the Buddhist thread if you want.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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punished with everlasting destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that either have not yet occurred, such as a Messianic Age of peace during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth," the rebuilding of The Temple, ingathering of Jews to their homeland; which the false messiah Failed to deliver. Judaism forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, worshiping Jesus as deity falls under the category of worshiping an idol that is not God; a false image.


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hermitas
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Posted by: @dom

In other words you are saying that Christ and the mystically inclined Christians attained dhyana via Bhakti prayers to the Bornless One/God without asana let alone pranayama and let alone e.g. tattva dharana ?

I’d say so. It was the similarity of mystical experiences between mystics of different religions that pulled me beyond my early religion. 

But regarding rigidity and breathing, they are not only causes. They may occur naturally in the passion moving to the ecstatic state. 

For example, intense, verbal prayer may take on a form of rhythmic breathing. Speaking in tongues can do that all the more so. 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @dom

They (AC and JC) both "demanded that we ...get with it in the here-and-now" though. ....  you said yourself (earlier in the thread)  that all faiths lead to the same thing.......work/action.  No work?  Expect to become worthless like salt that  has lost it's flavour and gets thrown out into the street etc if no work is done.   

It would seem to be axiomatic however that one cannot actually "work" at all at the goal of wu-wei, and that the state is either naturally there or it isn't?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Jesus’s followers must have considered him to be the messiah in some sense before his death, because nothing about his death or resurrection would have made them come up with the idea afterward. The messiah was not supposed to die or rise again."

Therefore the 'messiah' couldn't have been an authentic Old Aeon (Osirian) manifestation or archetype, which would involve death and resurrection (rather than eternal life/ the 'Ever Coming Son Sun' etc)?

Posted by: @dom

Christ Our Lord and Saviour's teachings have a theme i.e Karma.  Sometimes it's direct and sometimes indirect. 

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

[JC believed that] "... people who didn't make it into the Kingdom we're going to be destroyed and so Jesus did not believe in eternal torment, but he did believe that there's a possibility for people to have an Utopian existence here on earth." 

However, the Gospel According to Barbara Greene does not seem to take this on board at all - where as I remarked earlier, 'any idea of Karma ends up in the wastepaper basket'.  As long as you [anyone] just believe in JC as Savior/Redeemer it doesn't really matter what foul misdeeds you may have done previously throughout your life: you could be a serial child killer and still get in, or at least just perish in oblivious nonexistence along with all the other more minor infractors.  Or have I read you wrong there, Barbara? (If so please indicate where.)

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

worshiping Jesus as deity falls under the category of worshiping an idol that is not God; a false image.

Which leads us to the tribal demon deity YHVH, who is not God and never said he was, substituting "I Am that I Am" as a cover.

Posted by: @hermitas

But regarding rigidity and breathing, they are not only causes. They may occur naturally in the passion moving to the ecstatic state. 

This is a good observance. Many people and many traditions bypass the control panel of body and breath and they get it the natural way.

The natural way is where the body and/or breath come under control automatically when one enters a state of mediation. Yes, that's spelled correctly. Meditation, in the true sense, is a mediation between the higher and lower.

On the other hand, sometimes body and breath control are thrust upon one. In my own case, which is the only one I can speak of with self-verified authority, I had (in the early days) entertained the rigors (rigours, rigged-hours) and disciplines of both asana and pranayama. At that time (in the earlier years) I had also entered the really fast (4 hour) path of biochemical enhancement.

And it came to pass, on several occasions, that I found myself hovering at the edge of illumination, or at least loss of self-awareness and importance, that my body displayed violent tremors (tremours) and/or exceedingly sharp/deep pains. Or my breathing became erratic and it seemed like not enough aire (oxygen) was flowing.

The message was crystal clear: You do not have control over your body and/or breath or both, and you need to develop this control if you're to get past these kick-ups. So, thereafter, in my daily routines, I would pay more attention to developing these controls. At some point, I must have made the required control, because they (the kick-ups) ceased to occur. 

This was not adherence to some injunction in some manual of instruction. This was direct instruction in gaining control over my weak points.

Sometimes, within the short but eternal discomfort of the biochemical trance, the affliction(s) would be controlled - almost always by simply engaging proper breathing - and so the control mechanism was set in place right there and then, a a deeper level than previously maintained. If only it was always that easy. Because ...

... at other times, the pain did not go away. The libation would wear off (that is, it got metabolized) and a "sore-spot" reminder remained for days. Thus, I was forced to extend my practices into deeper realms.

My point is, your own system (at least my system) is competent enough to show you where you (I - me) need more work. Of course, if we are on the pure path of non-biochemical involvement, getting the message may take twenty years ... or it may not be received at all in this lifetime and one must hope that reincarnation is true because this life has fallen short of the mark. Whereas the shortest, fastest path, zoomed through in four hours, doesn't let one off the hook - you will get the message; or at least I did.

Posted by: @hermitas

For example, intense, verbal prayer may take on a form of rhythmic breathing.

Exactly.

Posted by: @hermitas

Speaking in tongues can do that all the more so. 

I have no personal experience with this, which is more likely a result and not a practice. And I've never heard/seen anyone else do it. I am thus under-qualified to make any rational or nonsensical comment, except maybe that the Zen stick is waiting for folks who babble incoherently.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

one cannot actually "work" at all at the goal of wu-wei

The "work" involves relaxing. But this is the opposite of "doing work," so the definitions become complicated. The martial arts instructions are quite clear on this; the word relax is often cited and promoted in the instruction. And guess what? It works. A participant is told to "relax," and suddenly, on the next attempt, the technique works. Of course, the participant may need several years of reminding, until one day they can do it themselves, without a reminder.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

As long as you [anyone] just believe in JC as Savior/Redeemer it doesn't really matter what foul misdeeds you may have done previously throughout your life: you could be a serial child killer and still get in, or at least just perish in oblivious nonexistence along with all the other more minor infractors. 

I believe you have summed up the scenario just fine and dandy. I only note that the alternative to oblivion (which might be described in some circles as "liberation"), in some folks' minds, is replaced with eternal burning.


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Posted by: @hermitas
Posted by: @dom

In other words you are saying that Christ and the mystically inclined Christians attained dhyana via Bhakti prayers to the Bornless One/God without asana let alone pranayama and let alone e.g. tattva dharana ?

I’d say so. It was the similarity of mystical experiences between mystics of different religions that pulled me beyond my early religion. 

But regarding rigidity and breathing, they are not only causes. They may occur naturally in the passion moving to the ecstatic state. 

For example, intense, verbal prayer may take on a form of rhythmic breathing. Speaking in tongues can do that all the more so. 

Doh! And fasting!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hermitas

And fasting!

Yes, that too. Fasting, extended exposure in the wilderness, holding the breath, all these and anything else that puts an unusual strain on the body can (possibly) lead to visions. Certain little mushrooms grow all over the world, but not here in New Mexico. There is a species that is native to the so-called Holy Land, and it has been implied that the profits of olde might have partaken.

If they did, they would have bypassed the need for body & breath control.

 


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I don’t think there is anything more Thelemic than Jesus determining to go to Jerusalem at the end - or sweating through the Garden of Gethsemane that night in prayer.

I realized once that if.. if... if... then Jesus did all of this for his Bride, humanity. Reminded me of Babalon. Seemed... familiar.  


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wellreadwellbred
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Jamie J Barter: "Therefore the 'messiah' couldn't have been an authentic Old Aeon (Osirian) manifestation or archetype, which would involve death and resurrection (rather than eternal life/ the 'Ever Coming Son Sun' etc)?"

"The Jewish messiah was not supposed to die or rise again, so few Jews became early Jewish Christians, like for example like the Ebionites. (As Abrahamic monotheists preserving the adoptionist theology of some of the first Christians,[2] the Ebionites understood Jesus of Nazareth as a mere man who, by virtue of his righteousness, was chosen by God to be the last true prophet who heralds the coming Kingdom of God on Earth. A majority of the Ebionites rejected as heresies the proto-orthodox Christian beliefs in Jesus' alleged divinity, pre-existence, virgin birth and substitutionary atonement." (Source: Ebionites From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites  ).))

(Disappearance of ancient Jewish Christianity:)

"After the end of the First Jewish–Roman War, the importance of the Jerusalem church began to fade. Jewish Christianity became dispersed throughout the Jewish diaspora in the Levant, where it was slowly eclipsed by Gentile Christianity, which then spread throughout the Roman Empire without competition from Jewish Christian sects. Once the Jerusalem church was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites#Disappearance )

The massive growth and spread of Gentile Christianity, involving faith in the death and resurrection of JC, had the advantage of many possible non Jewish converts to it, already being familiar with stories about, and traditions of, the death and resurrection of a deity, or the death and resurrection of deities.


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wellreadwellbred
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Me: "Why not try an audio book version of the Christian Bible"

Shiva: "I am essentially deaf, so that won't work. Try harder."

Shiva "Which leads us to the tribal demon deity YHVH, who is not God and never said he was, substituting "I Am that I Am" as a cover."

For a person your age, my impression is that you are quite capable of using a computer, and via a computer one can easily and in a short time find  that Jehova says that he is God, and is addressed as God, in the King James Version of the Christian Bible, very familiar to Aleister Crowley: 

Exodus 6:3
King James Version
"3. And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them."

Psalm 68:4
King James Version
"4. Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him."

Isaiah 12:2
King James Version
"2. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Shiva: "... I have found Alice baley to be more revealing on Christianity than the Good Book itself. ..." [...] "... Bailey straightened out what's going on in the Christian concept ...".

 

"The Arcane School, an occult organization founded by Theosophist Alice A. Bailey and her husband, Foster Bailey, was designed to bring in the New Age by the Great White Brotherhood, the spiritual hierarchy of masters who are believed to guide human destiny. As a young woman, Bailey affiliated with the Theosophical Society, moved into the Krotona community in Hollywood, California, and became editor of The Messenger, the society's journal. She also began to channel material from Djwhal Khul, one of the masters of the theosophical spiritual hierarchy, generally called "The Tibetan." Her channeling activity proved unacceptable to the society, and in 1920 she and her husband departed. [And] They moved to New York".

(Source: Arcane School - - - https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/arcane-school  )

 

With respect to J. Christ, Alice Bailey (1880–1949) in 1934 channeled from Djwal Khul this message: [I am] ""a Tibetan disciple of a certain degree, and this tells you but little, for all are disciples from the humblest aspirant up to and beyond The Christ Himself. I live in a physical body like other men on the borders of Tibet and at times (from the exoteric standpoint) preside over a large group of Tibetan Lamas, when my other duties permit."

(Source: Djwal Khul From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djwal_Khul )

What was Alice Bailey's source[-s] for straightening "... out what's going on in the Christian concept"? 

 


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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

by the name of God Almighty

"By the name of," not "as."

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him.

YHVH is not mentioned.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

This is not YHVH speaking. I don't care what other people call anything. I want to hear it from the YHVH's mouth.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

What was Alice Bailey's source[-s] for straightening "... out what's going on in the Christian concept"? 

You quoted it yourself: Channeling. The proof its veracity is in the pudding common and esoteric sense of what the words provide.

 


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Shiva
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Something bothered me about YHVH, so I thought I'd comment further ...

I think the "by the name of" scene is where YHVH appears and masquerades as the almighty One, who we know demands "No other elohim before me." Since he reveals his name, he cannot be the nameless one.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him.

Jah is part of the secret word of a degree higher than the usual III* mystery. And VH is not the other part. This is the scenario wherein followers buy into YHVH, or some shorthand version, as being the head dude. It ended up, here in the future, that he has a competitor named Allah, who has more followers than anybody else. The Aiwass camp has its own ideas, but the numbers of the big groups dwarf its power, at least in our present time zone.

 


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What was Alice Bailey's source[-s] for straightening "... out what's going on in the Christian concept"?

An empyreal transmundane presence in possession of advanced knowledge and powers, directing influence, occasionally using and operating the mouths of chosen ones; hidden from the profane and banal dimension.
Commonly deciphered, colored,clothed and shaped,as a magical emanation using magical means to alter beyond expanded interior mental and spiritual awarenesses; such as a manifesting angel, an esoteric stream current taking on a form body, an avatar, a past master saint, or as a maggid voice heard by a qabbalist.


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wellreadwellbred
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[Emphasis added by me:]

 

Shiva: "Since he reveals his name, he cannot be the nameless one."

Are you stating that 'God Almighty' in the Christian Bible is not allowed to reveal his name, or is not mighty enough to reveal his name?

As documented by me earlier on page 6 in thread, Crowley understood the similarities between the second most important book, and the most important book, of his Thelema, as the contribution of what to him was the real author of them, that is a voice, which he considered originated with a non-corporeal intelligenc, naming itself Aiwass. 

And among the similaeities the to AC two most important books of his Thelema, are the following two statements from second most important book: "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", and, "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus; and Lucifer is worshipped by men under the name of Brahma; and Leviathan is worshipped by men under the name of Allah; and Belial is worshipped by men under the name of Buddha." 

And the following statements from the most important book: "48. Now this mystery of the letters is done, and I want to go on to the holier place. 49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men. 50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them! 51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross. 52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him. 53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din. 54. Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds. 55. Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you! (III:48-55.)"

You state that channeling was Alice Bailey's source[-s] for straightening "... out what's going on in the Christian concept".

But not long before Alice Bailey had joined the Theosophical Lodge in Pacific Grove and was teaching and holding classes, "... she tells, she had left her original traditional Christian beliefs behind and soon after "discovered" "that there was a great and divine Plan," and that there are those "who are responsible for the working out of that Plan" by leading mankind, "stage by stage," down the centuries. This "hierarchy of spiritual leaders" she calls the "Masters of the Wisdom," and they all report to and work with Christ, Jesus of Nazareth. Her own Master, Lord K. H. or Koot Hoomi, had made visits to her every few years, starting she said in 1895, this being one of his many duties in his role as a pupil or assistant to the Christ." (Source: Krotona From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotona )

Is the channeled message[-s] behind Aleister Crowley's Thelema, stating "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus;", and "With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross", from the same source as the channeled message[-s] to Alice Bailey, about a "hierarchy of spiritual leaders", the "Masters of the Wisdom", that all report to and work with Jesus of Nazareth?

And are the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Aleister Crowley, and the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Alice Bailey, compatible with each other?

 

As this is the thread Christianity and Thelema, and to be Jesus' (aka Satan's) advocate, I will mention Paul in the Christian Bible, warning against a time to come, when people "... will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.":

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Oooops, adding correction underlined:

"And among the similarities between AC's two most important books of his Thelema, are the following two statements from second most important book: "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", and, "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus; and Lucifer is worshipped by men under the name of Brahma; and Leviathan is worshipped by men under the name of Allah; and Belial is worshipped by men under the name of Buddha." "


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Charged with the serpentine wisdom of know thy self in the hidden recesses of subsistence; raised on the cross of the slain lamb; a shift from the wisdom paid in false coinage to the repetition of pious phrases like kids chanting the two times table, telling us about their trip; is in progress.


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"And among the similarities between AC's two most important books of his Thelema, are the following two statements from second most important book: "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", and, "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus; and Lucifer is worshipped by men under the name of Brahma; and Leviathan is worshipped by men under the name of Allah; and Belial is worshipped by men under the name of Buddha." "

Therefore what is the (potentially interesting) point you are supposedly making with this, wrwb?  What according to your understanding do you think is being conveyed by these two remarkably very contrasting statements from VATV?

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @tiger

a manifesting angel, an esoteric stream current taking on a form body, an avatar, a past master saint, or as a maggid voice heard by a qabbalist.

Yeah, that's the one - it's called "channeling," which used to be known as "automatic writing."

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Are you stating that 'God Almighty' in the Christian Bible is not allowed to reveal his name, or is not mighty enough to reveal his name?

Absolutely. "Almighty God" is not YHVH the revealer of his dual nature, who says "Do this" and "Don't Do that." The All-mighty doesn't say anything. Human dorks brush against him (it) and then the names come forth.

It's not a question of being "allowed." He can't speak. He is dumb. The All-mighty is dumb. That's why he sends people down here to make-up, and reveal, his name, which is an errore because he (it) is nameless.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus; and Lucifer is worshipped by men under the name of Brahma; and Leviathan is worshipped by men under the name of Allah; and Belial is worshipped by men under the name of Buddha." 

Yeah. See? A bunch of Archons, aka the Elohim, have been messing with men's minds, whose minds then croak out the Name of the Lord, which is different from their neighbor's croak, and then the wars begin.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

Please put your pecker away and note that the war I mentioned is being gauntleted to the ground in a defiant proclamation of antagonism.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

there are those "who are responsible for the working out of that Plan" by leading mankind

Yes. That is merely one definition of the posters here at LAShTAL. Which one are you? I don't think you are Tibetan or a Kurdish Punjabi from Kashmir.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

This "hierarchy of spiritual leaders" she calls the "Masters of the Wisdom," and they all report to and work with Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

Um, no. You got some wires crossed. "The Christ," known to the heathen Orientals as "The Bodhisattva," is waaay up there in the Ains. Bailey draws a distinction between The Christ and the Master Jesus, who was only the vehicle for that august state. Or was it september?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Her own Master, Lord K. H. or Koot Hoomi, had made visits to her every few years, starting she said in 1895, this being one of his many duties in his role as a pupil or assistant to the Christ." (Source: Krotona From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whoever wrote that wiki entry, and slipped it by the censors and corrector, didn't quite get it right. I sense paraphrasing. But, essentially, yeah, this follows the tale.

Too bad the "ascended masters" don't exist.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?"

This is not "channeling." This is the voice of Frater the child-boy Crowley's neurotic struggle against a dead man, in whose NAME he was tortured. A clear case of child abuse leading to the development of the Anti-Christian Beast of Cefalu (not Boleskine). It is Cefalu we should be saving, not Boleskine.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

And are the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Aleister Crowley, and the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Alice Bailey, compatible with each other?

If we dismiss the differences, as we were instructed to do in The Student Scriptural Instruction Manual, and seek out what they have in common, yes, they are quite compatible. This compatability is the Rock upon which I found my Church. Of course, there's the preliminary work of tossing out the cultural bias from both camps.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires

The desire factor is dealt with over in Buddha thread. He cuts through this fetter with a sharp knife.

Posted by: @tiger

the repetition of pious phrases like kids chanting the two times table, telling us about their trip; is in progress.

Right. "Their" trip. Not mine. Not yours.

 


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dom
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

 

And among the similaeities the to AC two most important books of his Thelema, are the following two statements from second most important book: "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", and, "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus; and Lucifer is worshipped by men under the name of Brahma; and Leviathan is worshipped by men under the name of Allah; and Belial is worshipped by men under the name of Buddha." 

 

But not long before Alice Bailey had joined the Theosophical Lodge in Pacific Grove and was teaching and holding classes, "... she tells, she had left her original traditional Christian beliefs behind and soon after "discovered" "that there was a great and divine Plan," and that there are those "who are responsible for the working out of that Plan" by leading mankind, "stage by stage," down the centuries. This "hierarchy of spiritual leaders" she calls the "Masters of the Wisdom," and they all report to and work with Christ, Jesus of Nazareth. Her own Master, Lord K. H. or Koot Hoomi, had made visits to her every few years, starting she said in 1895, this being one of his many duties in his role as a pupil or assistant to the Christ." (Source: Krotona From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotona )

Is the channeled message[-s] behind Aleister Crowley's Thelema, stating "Let us alone! What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus of Nazareth?", "And Satan is worshipped by men under the name of Jesus;", and "With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross", from the same source as the channeled message[-s] to Alice Bailey, about a "hierarchy of spiritual leaders", the "Masters of the Wisdom", that all report to and work with Jesus of Nazareth?

And are the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Aleister Crowley, and the mentioned channeled message[-s] to Alice Bailey, compatible with each other?

 

As this is the thread Christianity and Thelema, and to be Jesus' (aka Satan's) advocate, I will mention Paul in the Christian Bible, warning against a time to come, when people "... will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.":

 

Ascended Masters, including Christ ,directing evolution from some far off spiritual plane?  Buddha as Belial?  What, Belial as in Goetic  jinni of confusion and lust, created after Lucifer?

Jesus as Satan?   What?  Jesus called Satan out (of the mad man).  

 

Ascended Masters, you mean disembodied ex-men who those with Daddy issues (or something) put on pedestals?  Where did they ascend to if we are all God anyway? 

 

Alice Bailey and channelled Ascended Masters who are really Tibetan monks?  Isn't this all the sort of creepy Occult nonsense that removes people further and further from the practicalities of Testament and the Word?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva, Dom asks the following questions with respect to messages channeled to Aleister Crowley and Alice Bailey respectively, will you please be so compassionate (yes I know, "... Compassion is the vice of kings: (II:21.) ..." and all that Jazz ), as to try to answer his questions, from your point of view as an initiate??:

 

Dom: "Ascended Masters, including Christ ,directing evolution from some far off spiritual plane?  Buddha as Belial?  What, Belial as in Goetic  jinni of confusion and lust, created after Lucifer?

Jesus as Satan?   What?  Jesus called Satan out (of the mad man).  

 

Ascended Masters, you mean disembodied ex-men who those with Daddy issues (or something) put on pedestals?  Where did they ascend to if we are all God anyway? 

 

Alice Bailey and channelled Ascended Masters who are really Tibetan monks?  Isn't this all the sort of creepy Occult nonsense that removes people further and further from the practicalities of Testament and the Word?"

 


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dom
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I wrote; Jesus as Satan?   What?  Jesus called Satan out (of the mad man). 

 

I was under the impression that Christ in the synagogue shouted the name 'Satan' to the possessed man.  I thought that  due to this scene from the 1970s movie  

Jesus teaching in the temple, casting out demons - from the movie Jesus of Nazareth - YouTube

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

Alice Bailey and channelled Ascended Masters who are really Tibetan monks?  Isn't this all the sort of creepy Occult nonsense that removes people further and further from the practicalities of Testament and the Word?

Yes. I have treated their nature extensively on webpages and in books. They are tightly held thoughtforms on the causal plane. They are tightly-held by adherents who reinforce the thoughtform with devotions, prayers, and an endless stream of channeled messages.

They are, of course, the counterpart to our (Thelema's) Secret Chiefs. Seven of them. The Bailey scenario sports Seven Ray Lords. Same deal. All this can be applicable when applied interiorly, but it gets really deep when they are externally projected into guys who live upstairs.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(yes I know, "... Compassion is the vice of kings: (II:21.)

This means Kings are allow to exercise the vice.

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Something bothered me about YHVH, so I thought I'd comment further ...

I think the "by the name of" ["God Almighty" (Exodus 6:3)] scene is where YHVH appears and masquerades as the almighty One, who we know demands "No other elihim before me."" [...] A bunch of Archons, aka the Elohim, have been messing with men's minds, whose minds then croak out the Name of the Lord, which is different from their neighbor's croak, and then the wars begin."

 

The biblical scholar, and expert in the ancient near east, Michael Heiser's scholarship fits in the parameters of a well-established field of study. On the basis of a broad sampling of relevant Ancient Near Eastern religious literature, as well as Second Temple Jewish and early Christian sources, he examines the ancient context in which the texts in the Christian Bible was written. And referring to such source material he describes what ancient people of both the Old and New Testament eras believed about God and the world, and evil spiritual forces, and how this informs the original meaning of the texts in the Christian Bible. 

Using this as the basis, he does in his book Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness, demonstrate that the acient Hebrews in line with their sacred srciptures understood the evil spiritual forces in the world, as derived from the three following divine rebellions:

These three rebellions are: (1) Satan’s (one of the elohim originally reigned over by the Most High God, Yahweh) initial rebellion against God (the Most High God, Yahweh, supreme and unique to all the other Elohim), (2) (some of the elohim) the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 leaving heaven to take human wives, and (3) the divine council (of elohim) abusing their territorial rule over the nations and turning it into a sort of rivalry against the true God. For Heiser, this threefold framework explains the majority of the Bible’s spiritual-warfare passages, and it clarifies the difference between Satan, false gods, and demons.

The first cosmic fall, is caused by Satan, one among the elohim who decided to rebel aginst governance of God, and was thus expelled from the divine council. And a cosmic warfare between Satan’s powers and God’s, is initiated by Satan sucessfully temting humanity into a state of sin and misery. Satan is described as “a divine throne guardian who wished to rule instead of being ruled”, drawing from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

The second fall draws from a reading of Genesis 6 and the “sons of God”, through the lens of Hellenistic Jewish literature like 1 Enoch and the ancient Mesopotamian story of the apkallu. A reading which has gained wide acceptance among biblical scholars in recent year, and according to which the “demons” of the New Testament Gospels are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, the wicked offspring of marriages between humans and angels before the flood. Heiser argue that the Nephilim were giants, killed in the flood, and their spirits punished by being cast down to the underworld. And that the Nephilim were the offspring of the elohim ("sons of god") members of the divine council comming to earth out of lust for human women.

The third fall draws from readings of Psalm 82 (where “gods, sons of the Most High” are mentioned in Psalm 82:6.), multiple intertestamental texts like texts by Ben Sira, Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and various Dead Sea Scrolls, in support of that God's judgment of the Tower of Babel, in addition to separating the nations, also “allotted” the nations to "sons of God", lesser gods, some of the elohim, except for Israel which the Most High God, Yahweh himself, reigned over directly. The other elohim intended to be administrators, governing on Yahweh’s behalf, assigned to the gentile nations, rebelled and began claiming divine worship for themselves.

The powers and principalities with whom the New Testament church is at war, is accounted for by the rebellious elohim over the gentile nations. “the ruling authority of the gods allotted to the nations was declared illegitimate and null by the work of Christ”., is how Heiser explains Jesus’s victory.

The ability for the adherents of the Most High God, Yahweh, to move throughout the world, overthrowing the false rule of the rebellious elohim, is enabled by he giving of the Holy Spirit to the church, and the book of Revelation depicts the last conflict between the Most High God, Yahweh, and the false rule of the rebellious elohim (false gods, idols), including Satan.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5829
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(1) Satan’s (one of the elohim originally reigned over by the Most High God, Yahweh) initial rebellion against God (the Most High God, Yahweh, supreme and unique to all the other Elohim)

Fine. you are citing some scholar, whose opinion about a belief system of superstitious folks way back then. The name/spelling/pronunciation of Yahweh was a mistake made by medieval scholars, and the term has stuck. But, seeing that the critical letters are intact, there's no need to split hairs over it. I propose two solutions, and can bring either one out, depending on the need and the circumstances ...

1. This is a pile of crap (these stories). The Nice Collection was based on docs several hundred years old. Some were perhaps thousands. They were probably copies of copies of the original docs and oral traditions. There is reasonable suspicion to suspect the Nice fellows first picked and chose the docs. Then they adjusted certain parts. How can anybody believe a Liber that was thus constructed?

If one counts the begats and the years, like some anal-retentive counters did, the Liber-Bible confirms that the world was created in 4004 BC, which is ridiculous, and this was the reason I lost all faith and turned away from the stupid church. How can anybody believe a Liber that was thus miscounted?

2. This one is more scary. Back in Mesopotamia, by the Tigris River, a bunch of ethnic locals took to evoking the wretched demon-god things and making pacts with them. This loosed such turmoil upon the land that the Sumerians rounded them up and sold then to the Khem fellows as slaves, where they made bricks for Pharaoh. You know the rest of the story.

All the Elohim, and YHVH (and according to AC, this included Aiwass - but he only wrote this in one sentence and did not bang any drum about it), and Baal, and any other archons, is a continuation of this pantheon of reptilian, winged, dragon entities. The lineage was known earlier in India as the a=Asuras (demons) who were in conflict with the Devas (angels). It's an old story. 

The players in this old story are the basis for ancient beliefs and practices. How can anyone rely on this data when one of the archons was masquerading as the almighty godfather of the demonic mafia?

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

(2) (some of the elohim) the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 leaving heaven to take human wives

This is unthinkable. Alternatively, think about how you would feel if your wife or daughter was taken by, say, this fellow? ...

image

There are other legends, but I like the last one because we have olden artifacts attesting to its validity, like this classic ...

image

Do I believe any of this, or make decisions based on ANY of the above?

No.

There is only us (You. me, the other folks). We are a direct projection out of the void. The trajectory of the projection passed through many modifications on its journey. These modification survive as fairy tales, legends, myths, strange belief systems, and archetypes. It's the archetypes that behave as if they are real, independent entities. So real that they affect people's thinking. These deranged and obsessed people then make-up a religion, you know, a spiritual/religious con.

All these stories are based on some sort of relative truth, but discovering that truth is difficult. We must discount all difference and make our own internal connection back to the source, which has no name.

You might consider not responding with long dissertations based on what other people think, unless you're just keen to exercise your research skills, because I'm playing, not the devil's advocate, but the almost-UG mode. Almost means I'm willing to display alternatives, while the true UG mode simply squashes any concepts whatsoever.

However, if you display some essential or core truth, I'll be the first to give the thumbs-up sign, or the V for Victory token, and I will refrain from using the middle finger salutation.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

the divine council (of elohim) abusing their territorial rule over the nations and turning it into a sort of rivalry against the true God.

I like this one. Half a thumb up. This also sounds like corrupt politics and was probably written by some big-wig tribal leader's sorcerer. 

I must leave now to attend Mass, or some sort of other thing. I cannot continue your episle any further at this time.

 


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2003
 

wellbred-

For CHRIST'S SAKE-WHAT is the point of your posts????

Seriously, this whole topic is of great interest to me but your posts are just God-awful horrible. 

STOP quoting sources and throwing these at us as if they somehow demonstrate a point.

Seriously.

STOP with the quotations and just use your own words to say what you have to say!

I honestly don't understand your opinion, perspective or point at ALL.

You don't put ANYTHING into a context.

You are almost like a "bot."

And-you clearly have enough skill with the English language to make a point (if you have one).

So PLEASE! Quit with the cut and paste routine. Just say your truth. Make the point.

WHAT do YOU think????


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2003
 

Wellbred-

I just saw that Shiva indulged you.

We'll see if you respond with more than cut and paste quotations.


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