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kidneyhawk
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I'm hoping that folks here won't be too timid in responding to this question-but its one I've been thinking about this evening...

If YOU could "officially" give a "Class A" status to any one book (not included in the thus classified line-up) WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

This gets into the whole "Thelema Beyond Crowley" theme, which I think is really worth pondering.

This can be pre or post Crowley...whatever. No right or wrong answers.

What book would you pick?

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Liber Aleph


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 Anonymous
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The Diamond Sutra. To fully understand this book is to fully manifest enlightenment, which is to say "Cosmic Will". Not that I'm claiming to have done either but this small book resonates with the deepest levels of my heart.

93 93/93
Kym


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kidneyhawk
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Allright, I'm going to toss my own out-and it's an odd one-but I would "Class A" Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass.


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 Anonymous
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Tao Teh Ching. It's Thelema before Thelema was cool.

nick


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 Anonymous
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93 kidneyhawk,

I'm not sure if it is distinguished(or accepted) as such, but the Song of Solomon is what I believe to be Class A.

Perhaps, it would be a good idea to define what Class "A" , "B" , "C", "D", and "E" works are to those new to thelema. And please, correct if this is mistaken....


Class A consists of works that are not to be changed, even to the letter. The Holy Books fall in this category.
Class B consists of works of scholarship and enlightment.
Class C consists of material that suggests things other than the obvious.
Class D consists of official rituals and instructions.
Class E consists of manifestos, broadsides, epistles and other public statements.

93 93/93
10BEARS


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kidneyhawk
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10 Bears-Thank you for posting the defintions!

And Song of Solomon is a GREAT selection to "Make the Grade!" πŸ˜€

Others?


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Cronus
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I would have to agree with papanick on Tao Teh Ching being classified as "Class A" work. Aleister Crowley's translation and interpretation of this work was basically received (or so he says) through a praeternatural source; such as Liber AL - correct me if I'm wrong here. Crowley himself knew very little (if any) Chinese and as the title page to this work reads: "THE TAO TEH KING, translated from the Codex manifested in the Akasha by 729 the Wizard Amalantrah to 666 with a commentary by 666." So unless I'm missing something, the Wizard Amalantrah is an actual human being who traveled the Astral Plane to the Akasha where he translated from the Codex and then Crowley interpretated this translation of the Tao Teh Ching. I forget what this work is actually classified as, but I believe it's either B or C (leaning towards C)? But that really doesn't make much sense to me.

This is great reading for any fans of Crowley and Taoism or Thelemites, of course. I would recommend purchasing the 1995 paperback edition by Weiser Books ISBN: 0877288461 otherwise known as The Equinox, V. 3, No. 8. It's a rather small book, and also includes an appendix the Ch'in Chang Ching (Liber XXI, The Classic Of Purity) which seems to be a poem by Crowley about the Tao. I believe this edition is out of print but should be able to locate one on eBay or Amazon, etc. Well worth the little bit of money it costs IMO!

93,

Cronus


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Michael Staley
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"Cronus" wrote:
Aleister Crowley's translation and interpretation of this work was basically received (or so he says) through a praeternatural source; such as Liber AL - correct me if I'm wrong here.

As I understand it, Crowley did not translate it, but reworked the existing translation by James Legge. It was in the course of this reworking that he invoked Amalantrah to elucidate passages which he found obscure.

"Cronus" wrote:
Crowley himself knew very little (if any) Chinese and as the title page to this work reads: "THE TAO TEH KING, translated from the Codex manifested in the Akasha by 729 the Wizard Amalantrah to 666 with a commentary by 666." So unless I'm missing something, the Wizard Amalantrah is an actual human being who traveled the Astral Plane to the Akasha where he translated from the Codex and then Crowley interpreted this translation of the Tao Teh Ching.

I don't see anything in what you've quoted to suggest that Amalantrah was/is a human being rather than a discarnate entity. In my opinion, the account of the Amalantrah Working kept by Crowley and others makes it plain that Amalantrah was/is a discarnate entity.

Back to the subject of this post. 'The Diamond Sutra' - yes yes yes! I'd also elevate to this category the later terse and aphoristic works of Wei Wu Wei such as 'All Else is Bondage'. Kenneth Grant's 'The Wisdom of S'lba' is worthy of this category. I'd include Nietzsche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra'. I'll come back later with a few more works.


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kidneyhawk
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This is already a great thread and I think I'd like to end it (but NOT NOW!!!!!!!!!) with a tabulation of all our recommended works-a "Lashtal Class A" Catalogue! I think we all might want to print out the final "table" of books and think about it for future readings.

But-hey...only a few have posted! I'm really interested in what you ALL would put in Class A Category (please see 10 Bears post above for defintion)!

Don't be shy! Post anonymously if you want!

How does this sound? When the list hits 93 I'll make a print incorporating all 93 books (even if its only as a small representative image) into a work of art and post it here along with the list, a sort of tribute to those who went before, lived during and came after-a tribute not only to their light but the light within US that resonated and rejoiced in it!

74 and counting! πŸ˜‰

Kyle


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Cronus
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How about Mathers "The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage"? If it wasn't for that book, what would have been of Crowley? I've been thinking of texts worthy of "Lashtal's Class A" and that's one I'd rate highly... speaking of that book; when is the new translation coming out?! I've had that on pre-order off Amazon for months now and I'm really looking forward to that book. Mathers translation is a bit too archaic for a newbie such as myself. =(


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lashtal
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Whoah!

Slow down there...

Class A consists of works that are not to be changed, even to the letter. The Holy Books fall in this category.

Translated books therefore do not fit the criteria.

On another tack, though, why restrict yourselves to the written word? Why not consider other media? If that's the case - ie genuinely inspired works - then let's add Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven, or Adagio For Strings by Samuel Barber, or Austin Osman Spare's Formula Of Zos Vel Thanatos stele, etc.

A staggeringly large number of Class A "documents"...

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Cronus
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Alright, so how about the original manuscripts, since translations don't count?


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kidneyhawk
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Well, wait a second! Every work is a work unto itself! Mayhap the Translation is the work being considered for Class A and THAT is a work we wouldn't change a single word in!

And Paul, I KNEW (for some strange reason-hmmm.....) that you'd be taking the category beyond the bounds of the bookbound (and that it would be with Stairway!).

Good choice!

Kyle


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Proteus
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

That dreadful wedding song as Class A?! Omnia in Uno et Unus in Omnibus. Hmmmm, maybe you're on to something there...

I have not read the Diamond Sutra. It looks like it's been included in several books. Can someone please recommend a good translation of this work? I think I'll celebrate the anniversary of my Lesser Feast with a beefsteak, a dozen oysters, and a good read! Is it possible to eat a beefsteak and a dozen oysters Yogin-wise?

'Night All

John Inferiusissimus

Love is the Law, love under will.


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ianrons
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Whoa to you too Paul! I thought Class 'A' meant not just inspired or inspirational works but revealed works, in the sense of beyond nervous-systems and supra-rational. Are you suggesting that Jimmy, Robert et al. received their music through some kind of mystical method? For my part, I would nominate portions of the Dee/Kelley workings.


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kidneyhawk
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I think there WILL be posts for Class A submissions which we'll all think "What the---?" but since we're considering and not making some official list for "Ordo Lashtal," I think we'll include in the final listing whatever anyone has offered after they've really given it some thought in context of the appropriate definition (again: 10 Bears Above).

For Paul to "submit" Stairway means that not a word, note, drum beat etc is to be altered-that the song was crafted by means of "supra-rational" revelation and that he upholds it as a piece of perfection which gives expression and serves as a guide and gateway to the "Beyond." If Paul stands by that, well...I'll be adding a stairway Glyph to the print and it makes the list!

(There's no way we'll all agree on what "fits the bill." But we DO get to express what fits our own!).

Another utterly revealed work: Beethoven's 9th. Problematic in that the score is only heard as rendered by a particular orchestra-can we default to the realm of pure Platonic Form?


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 Anonymous
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I have not read the Diamond Sutra. It looks like it's been included in several books. Can someone please recommend a good translation of this work?

93!
The Diamond Sutra & The Sutra of Hui Neng Translated by A.F Price and Wong Mou-Lam is the copy I own. It's published by Shambhala Publications, INC.

I have just recently read this book myself and I cant recommend it enough. Wonderfully enlightening. A short read but a lifetime of wisdom.

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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"ianrons" wrote:
For my part, I would nominate portions of the Dee/Kelley workings

What parts exactally?


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 Anonymous
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Paul wrote:

Slow down there...

Class A consists of works that are not to be changed, even to the letter. The Holy Books fall in this category.

Translated books therefore do not fit the criteria.

True, I wasn't thinking about the "change not so much as the style of a letter" definition of Class A docs. By that criteria, Tao Teh Ching doesn't fit the bill, by a long shot. There have been possibly dozens of translations, and translating Chinese ideograms into another language is tricky at best since there can be a number of different meaning for any given character. Not only that, but Lao Tzu was likely not a single historical person, but was likely a semi-mythical figure, sort of the Wise Old Man of the time, and the book itself a pastiche of wise sayings cobbled together from what was even then "antiquity".

So Class A is a really restrictive criteria. That means nothing that is not in English (if that is our criteria), and really nothing that is not a reproduction of a manuscript of a revealed work, as Ianrons pointed out. As I think someone pointed out in another thread, even AL had a revision or two (see pages 6 and 19 of the mss.) In the case of a classical music composition, only the handwritten score of the composer would qualify, since every orchestra will perform it a tad differently. And is a "new and improved digital remix" of Stairway the original analog version?

Would any printed version of the Book of Mormon qualify as Class A, since according to John Smith the book was given to him by the Angel Moroni written in Angelic language on golden tablets?

If we don't take a pretty liberal interpretation of what constitutes Class A for this purpose, not much is going to qualify.

nick


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daopig
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I have studied this thread and the enlightened contributions. And my stomach is dictating my response right now. My fingers are flying over the keyboard. With just the occasional delete button to correct typos. I want to say something about the classification A. Why not decide the matter by good old fashioned, tried and tested democratic means. We need a list. This board has a bunch of vociferous hands...I say put it to the vote. Kidney whatever his name can put up, a work which people are not quite sure is the word of god and we can let the People decided whether it really is or is just a contrivance : artistic, maybe. But not worthy of the A classification. Before doing this it is probably worth starting the list with the known writings of god. Like Liber Al. Then if Alice in Wonderland needs to be added we can all have a stab at deciding and nobody gets left out. At the end of the day it's all a bit of fun. Like digging up coffins.


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lashtal
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"ianrons" wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jimmy, Robert et al. received their music through some kind of mystical method?

Are you suggesting that revealed material can only ever result from the application of "some kind of mystical method"?

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 Anonymous
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Digging up coffins is fun?? Wow, who knew. I dont think i'll add that to my "week-end fun" list, I might break a nail and I really hate getting dirty sooooo...I'm out but if you say so Daopig. 😯

Daopig, if I might just inquire a bit here. What do you mean by "writtings of God?" Are you being broad with that term, as I'm assuming you are so would that include your HGA then? Which is a connection....does a connection count?

Alice in Wonderland is a really REALLY interesting add though! πŸ™‚

93 93/93
Kym


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kidneyhawk
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I say put it to the vote

LOL-that's how the "closed canon" of the Christian Bible was determined to be the inerrant "Word of God." By vote. Nice (Council, that is!)

Daopig, I think you may have misunderstood the whole point of the thread (unless I'm misunderstanding YOU). If I create a work of art (or "whatever") it is just a little "tribute" to all those who expressed the Light they've found in works that have (for them-and perhaps others) carry and manifest the Current. But it's a seperate thing, altogether. Certainly not a sanction.

I WILL make a list at # 93 of what people have posted and I strongly DOUBT that a single one of us would accept it in toto as ANY kind of "Official" or "God-given" statement for Thelemites across the board. But I think a lot of folks may find it worth printing out, at the very least to accomodate a jaunt to the bookstore!

WHO decides ANYTHING? WE do! (which is to say: YOU do!) Even the acceptance of the Official A.A. List as such and how its "inerrant" content manifests unquestionably in the perceived Universe.

So, let me ask this:

Is there a single work which is NOT deigned "Class A" by any acknowledgement outside of yourself which you would place in that category-for YOURSELF ? Curious.

Sorry about your stomach. Tums might help...eaten Yogin-wise! πŸ˜€

93

Kyle


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Proteus
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Sorry about your stomach. Tums might help...eaten Yogin-wise!

Thanks Kid-nee-Hawk

...and thank you for the Diamond Sutra recommendation, Kym. I'm off to buy it now.

John

Love is the Law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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Hello all, nice thread!

If I may be so bold and ask for some latitude, I'd like to recommend Eliot's Wasteland. It's crammed with myth and a striking read, which repays reading out loud for effect, as well as deep textual study. I've endeavoured to use it as a set of pathworkings before, with interesting effect. [thinking about it, its revision by Pound may disqualify it. Oh well...]

Regards,

xxx


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daopig
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Kidmehawk: "Sorry about your stomach. Tums might help...eaten Yogin-wise! "
Just to correct any misapprehension. There was nothing wrong with my stomach, it statisfied itself immediately by making my hands move and formulate my own wacky response. It seems that it is not just for digestion. And I am surprised at myself quite honestly.

Also, with respect to coffin digging. Lots of activities can seem arduous and trying but, when you get to suck on those tasty old bones a few times. When you realise that there is a definite benefit in working to prepair - even if you don't use gloves and get your nails dirty. Or use a spade. Eventually you see the digging itself as part of the over all enjoyment. This happens with a wide array of activities. So, on reflection I didn't mean to come across as overly sarcastic. Some of these threads really crack me up properly. This one has been a pearler.
Thanks!!!


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 Anonymous
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Also, with respect to coffin digging. Lots of activities can seem arduous and trying but, when you get to suck on those tasty old bones a few times

I'm realllllllllllllllly trying to follow your anology here daopig. πŸ˜†

So, on reflection I didn't mean to come across as overly sarcastic

You didnt come off sarcastic to me at all. You unnerved me slightly but "different strokes for different folks" and everybody get their minds out of the gutter, you KNOW what I mean. πŸ˜‰

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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Crowley could not read or write Chinese his version of th Tao Teh Ching is just a rewriting of Legges not very good translation. Its worth remembering that Crowley published Konx Om Pax and promoted it all his life without ever noticing that the two Chinese words in it are printed up side down.

As for a the book I would go with the collected art of Vincent Van Gogh. Why shouldn't paintings be recieved works?
Best Wishes Robert .


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ianrons
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93 Paul,

"lashtal" wrote:
"ianrons" wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jimmy, Robert et al. received their music through some kind of mystical method?

Are you suggesting that revealed material can only ever result from the application of "some kind of mystical method"?

I wouldn't dream of it! I'm just sticking to the revealed concept: that human invention – artistic or otherwise – doesn't qualify for Class 'A' status. Otherwise it simply becomes a value judgment. Call me a Neoplatonist if you like, I don't mind...

93 93/93
Ian


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ianrons
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93 Kym,

"adonia444" wrote:
"ianrons" wrote:
For my part, I would nominate portions of the Dee/Kelley workings

What parts exactally?

Well, how about the Angelic Alphabet -- the version at the end of Loagaeth where the designs were outlined by the angels on the parchment that Kelley was writing on, and he just inked them in. That's very literal to "change not as much of the style of a letter".

Also Loagaeth itself, the Calls and the designs for the temple equipment (inc., e.g., the Ensigns of Creation) would be included, and from there one might proceed to inclusion of some of the other material such as the better of the various fables and speeches (e.g., "the Prophet Damida", and the text where the angels reveal the makeup of the Sigillum Dei). In summary, figures such as the Great Table are quite clearly in Class 'A', but the Conferences are of a mixed character such that comments about Dee's mundane life are intermingled so as to make classification of such portions a little tricky; however, it is often pretty clear when the angels are making a pronouncement (when they tend to ignore remarks by Dee and Kelley and just carry on regardless) and when they are simply "chatting".

93 93/93
Ian


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lashtal
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93 Ian,

Thank you for a very interesting post. Your latter remark about the more impressive material being when the angels take the opportunity to "pronounce" rather than "converse" is especially important, I think. The same feature appears in many of Crowley's "Workings": one often gets the feeling that things would be even more interesting if he would only "shut up" and let the Spirit speak.

93 93/93
Paul

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 Anonymous
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Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson and On the Road by Jack Kerouac are kind of received and kind of Thelemic so I nominate them. Oh, now that I think about it, Howl by Allen Ginsberg too. I'd also add Blake's illuminated works to the list as an example that crosses bounderies between word and paint.


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kidneyhawk
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Ian-

You...you...you, NEOPLATONIST!!!!!!!!

Seriously, though, regarding the NATURE of a "Received" Work...the "Praeter-Natural" Influx expressing its energy therein has certainly come through HUMAN HANDS in every work stamped with that Class designation. Aiwass manifested AL through the English Language Constructs existing in AC's mind when it was dictated, moved his nervous system with precision, even to the line strike across a page. Crowley didn't "black out" or become "possessed" but he certainly channeled (as the human organism seems quite fit for this purpose) the "Revelation."

In one of his books (can't recall which at the moment), Kenneth Grant talks about how the artist who creates truely inspired art does so when the conscious mind is not in the way of a Force which is BEYOND the artist and working through him-something of the Cosmic Will expressing itself through one of its members, open by chance or choice, to the movement of that Will.

So it would seem that HUMANS are always involved in the giving forth of the Work (unless Joseph Smith would have grabbed those tablets and ran like hell!).

Dali (who I believe was the artist Grant was refering to in his above mentioned discussion) offers methods and techniques for HOW to shut off the conscious mind during the creation of art in his "50 Secrets of Magic Craftsmanship." The result of his process (which is both funny AND illuminated) is the bringing forth of a masterpiece in one week.

When such a work appears, expressing the Cosmic Will (and also possessing the POWER to actually impart it to others), it is "perfect." Not a dab of Van Gogh's paint to be removed, not a line or letter of a particular poem to be removed, not a note to be sidestepped in the symphonic sound.

I'm just a human myself but I've EXPERIENCED this Cosmic Content, for lack of better terminology in Liber AL. It is not just a book or an inspired book or a prophetic book...it actually embodies a Magick that downloads into the "Soul" and begins to transform it...that having been said, I've had the SAME experience in reading a TRANSLATION of the Diamond Sutra into English. It's a vastly different gig, it's not Gematriatic etc, but the very words-each and every in that translation went in as a "download" that pulsed perfectly with the AL current.

I think the Meta-Human meets the Human and the Hands work...and a revealed Work is made manifest (as much as it manifests and can embody/impart Cosmic Will).

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Your latter remark about the more impressive material being when the angels take the opportunity to "pronounce" rather than "converse" is especially important, I think

YES! I completly agree! Wonderful reply! I had a feeling that's what you'd say. ( Ian, not Paul. sorry if there was confusion.)

Thank you for elaborating Ian.

93 93/93
Kym


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ianrons
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Re: Blake, I'd definitely support inclusion of some of his poetry, if only to make up for being excluded from the list of Saints in the Gnostic Mass (perhaps Crowley simply forgot?).

Re: Crowley and "shutting up", I forget where but didn't he say that he thought he could have done a lot better with his communications if he hadn't constantly been trying to disprove their validity?


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kidneyhawk
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Re: Blake (and my last post), he indicates in his work Jesrusalm that he is only the scribe, the "Authors being in Eternity" and goes so far as to point out that not a single letter, number of syllables etc is to altered, it being PERFECT.


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ianrons
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93 Kyle,

You...you...you, NEOPLATONIST!!!!!!!!

I didn't say it was true though πŸ˜†

Seriously, though, regarding the NATURE of a "Received" Work...the "Praeter-Natural" Influx expressing its energy therein has certainly come through HUMAN HANDS in every work stamped with that Class designation. Aiwass manifested AL through the English Language Constructs existing in AC's mind when it was dictated, moved his nervous system with precision, even to the line strike across a page. Crowley didn't "black out" or become "possessed" but he certainly channeled (as the human organism seems quite fit for this purpose) the "Revelation."

But on the other hand, Crowley never wrote a Class 'A' text himself, even after he had attained to Master, Magus or even Ipsissimus. He did sign a document as "Aiwass", but never gave any of those "personal" works the same status as those which he received from "above".

In one of his books (can't recall which at the moment), Kenneth Grant talks about how the artist who creates truely inspired art does so when the conscious mind is not in the way of a Force which is BEYOND the artist and working through him-something of the Cosmic Will expressing itself through one of its members, open by chance or choice, to the movement of that Will.

I can only agree with that, but I would add (with reference to your other comments, and now quoting from Hymenaeus Alpha) that "[The Class 'A' texts] have no equivalence with the results of simple mediumship – years of aspiration and rigorous training were a prerequisite even for a mystic and magician of Crowley's abundant native gifts".

Re: Blake again. Yes, I was thinking of "Jerusalem", which was "dictated to him". That gets my vote.

93 93/93
Ian


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kidneyhawk
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Ian,

I don't think we're too far off from each other here-and I think an objection to at least my own statements would be: WHAT authority does a Class A stand on? If I were to manifest a "Class A" and sign it with my own name is that any less of an indicator of its verity? If I proclaim that my document was "dictated from the Entity Thus and Such" (as so many have done-"Ramrod Speaks!") does that make it any more valid? Ultimately, I think, there is the work-a manifestation of some sort in space-time and we have a connection to it that EXCEEDS our connection to the majority of works in like medium, that somehow strikes us on a level that not only resonates deeply (or deepest!) but inaugurates change, cracks open gateways and continues to reveal and reveal with continual unfoldings, always opening us up further and elevating consciousness...(I think that's a good "book review" for Liber AL!).

STILL-it's WE who have accepted Liber AL in that fashion. It's the power and proof within our deepest strata that acknowledges the nature of such a work, despite others promoting it as such. This would seem to evoke the question from another thread, I believe: can someone tap the Aeon FULL ON and do so apart from Liber AL? And if so, HOW is this achieved?

Personally (just my perspective) I see AL as an Energy Pattern which MANIFESTED in the Book (er...am I being the "Neoplatonist" now?). If Crowley was the pinnacle of such possibility to function as such a transmitter, then are we to accept the summit has been reached and no further can we climb? I also see AL as being a non-static, multi-dimensional pattern-hence the Magick imparted to the book and its "literary" strangenesses. To "touch AL" then is to touch the Energy and if we have, indeed, undergone the disciplines, trainings, practices etc to became adequate "transmitters," then that Living Force will continue to pour out expressions of itself (in varying degrees of perfection) to the infinitude of Pi.

Never the less, some of those "varying degrees" have and will hit "Class A," their proof being their Success, which only our "Angel Selves" can determine.

Now, YOU can call ME a cracked mystic!

And I'll probably say it's TRUE! πŸ˜€

93s all the way, Ian!

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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If we are including paintings/artwork, I would nominate some of the works by Rosaleen Norton, the Australian pagan occult painter. Most of the images in her paintings were things she saw in trances, and she also dabbled in automatic drawing ala AOS.

I was thinking about suggesting "On The Road" earlier today, as I understand it it was written in one sitting, fueled by benzedrine, the pages taped together to make a fat scroll.

nick


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 Anonymous
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One could then say that a 'Class A' can be practically anything then ? why not ? occuring in music, dance, sex, art or literary works. The nature of a Class A, is an involuntary stumbling, an automatic reception of the unconscious mind (or something 'outer' or 'praeterhuman') in pure unfettered expression through these vessels (music, dance, sex, art or literary work) of expression...is it not ?

Does not our human experience produce Class A's all the time, but the majority of us are too blind to 'experience' their arising? 😯

...just a thought!


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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93 Kyle,

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I don't think we're too far off from each other here-and I think an objection to at least my own statements would be: WHAT authority does a Class A stand on? If I were to manifest a "Class A" and sign it with my own name is that any less of an indicator of its verity? If I proclaim that my document was "dictated from the Entity Thus and Such" (as so many have done-"Ramrod Speaks!") does that make it any more valid? Ultimately, I think, there is the work-a manifestation of some sort in space-time and we have a connection to it that EXCEEDS our connection to the majority of works in like medium, that somehow strikes us on a level that not only resonates deeply (or deepest!) but inaugurates change, cracks open gateways and continues to reveal and reveal with continual unfoldings, always opening us up further and elevating consciousness...(I think that's a good "book review" for Liber AL!).

Yep, I think it's a matter for "peer review". Of course, in terms of A.'.A.'. texts, that means K&C's all round -- not submission to the Times Literary Supplement.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
STILL-it's WE who have accepted Liber AL in that fashion. It's the power and proof within our deepest strata that acknowledges the nature of such a work, despite others promoting it as such. This would seem to evoke the question from another thread, I believe: can someone tap the Aeon FULL ON and do so apart from Liber AL? And if so, HOW is this achieved?

Beats me. I think the mystical and magickal methods of Thelema enable one to tap into the current in a very specific way. I would suggest that, e.g., a Tibetan, no matter how enlightened, is simply not going to be working with the same formulae. It seems far too easy to generalise.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Personally (just my perspective) I see AL as an Energy Pattern which MANIFESTED in the Book (er...am I being the "Neoplatonist" now?). If Crowley was the pinnacle of such possibility to function as such a transmitter, then are we to accept the summit has been reached and no further can we climb? I also see AL as being a non-static, multi-dimensional pattern-hence the Magick imparted to the book and its "literary" strangenesses. To "touch AL" then is to touch the Energy and if we have, indeed, undergone the disciplines, trainings, practices etc to became adequate "transmitters," then that Living Force will continue to pour out expressions of itself (in varying degrees of perfection) to the infinitude of Pi.

I think these remarks by AC are worth quoting:

"Crowley" wrote:
Although [Liber Legis] was not the direct result of invocation, unless the successful invocation of Horus be accounted such, yet in view of the Magical tradition that communications of this type may and should result more or less directly from the use of ceremonial methods, and of the absence of any other reasonable theory which covers the facts, I am led to make experiments and to induce others to make experiments on the asssumption that people trained in a) Magical b) Mystical c) Qabalistic arts are more likely than those not so trained to receive similar communications with such fulness and accuracy as enables them to withstand the severest criticism. (The original communication was made to Rose [Crowley] but would obviously have come to nothing had I not been there to gestate and parturate the seed.) These experiments have been justified by such results as the books LXV, VII, 418, I, Ararita, and by such work as the editing of the T[ao] T[eh] K[ing] and the Y K[ing]. The validity of the methods is demonstrated by J[ohn] S[t.] J[ohn]. Also by the success of those who have put them into practice with fidelity, energy and intelligence. Indirectly also by the quality of the failures and disasters which have accompanied experiments conducted in ways which I disapprove. Incidentally I have been able to predict results both of the wise and foolish virgins under my supervision. [...] [It] is my special business to set people to obtain the K and C of the HGA by such means as I have myself proved valid. By the word "conversation" I understand communication similar to The Book of the Law as to origin, authority and value, each as may be suited to the nature and T[rue] Will of the aspirant or experimenter.

(From Norman Mudd, Notes of Conversations with Aleister Crowley concerning the Book of the Law, quoted in The Holy Books of Thelema, Weiser 1985.)

93 93/93
Ian


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 Anonymous
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I think painting and verse should be included. Liber AL says to find Nu(new?) symbols etc. So why not turn the English words into sigils and add an astrological meaning -Nu symbols. This would get around English V American, centre or center and so on. Perhaps American English is the right kind? It seems to be the most widely used.
Your right about Blake and I seem to recall that in his collected letters he says that almost all of his poetry either came to him in dreams or visions.
I thought all the late neoplatonists like Boethius were Christian. The early ones go with Plotinius and thwe Nouminous. Have to look this up.
Best Wishes Robert.
**************** Star symbols.


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 Anonymous
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What about the White Album?


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 Anonymous
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What is Class A? A Holy Text, perfection, we say not a word should be changed. What makes these works Holy? I would propose that they are Holy because of the author/artist's ability to approximate the real with much of its eternal facets which bridge to the reader/viewer an enlightened, transcendent experience. Such works pave a path to the real.

We say that they are transmitted to us, or inspired, or unconscious to us. I would propose that what makes them great is that personality has not tainted the landscape. The real is transmitted not through the normal filters of the self which is of our own creation. Rather the real is percieved with the clarity of impartiality, of objectivity.

There is a text written in the stars, a text written on the earth. Every impression, every encounter, every experience has imbedded within it a text. This text is invariably lost in translation. We see what we want to see, read what we want to read, hear what we want to hear. We process everything through our own experience, and stand before this wall of our own thoughts, memories, conceptions, habits; nothing real gets through it all. The enlightened have through objectivity and transcendence, the ability to see the real. And through discipline are able to inpart a piece of enlightenment to others, even those who have yet to reach this state. They give us a taste, if you will of eternity, a glimpse of the nature of True Will. A Will, if digested fully into one's individual being, would in expression, represent the laws behind every action.

So what about the White Album? If you are talking about the cover, I'm all in. Now there is a piece of canvas to begin each day with!

Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law.

Milo


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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Milo-

93 and welcome to Lashtal!

...and I would ask (somewhat playfully) "What is Class AA?" A great friend of mine recently turned me on to Thelema Coast to Coast and pretty much said I HAD to listen to podcast 24, the musical rendition of Liber AL. Prior to the piece, the two men who brought it through as such talked about the very same thing you are...that putting of "personality" aside and allowing the Full Force of the Inspiration to come through...and a single listen to that magnificent piece was enough to convince me that they had done just this!

The "interview" beforehand talks about this approach to the project. They both seemed genuinely inspired and yet without ego in their creative process-and the music/vocals speak for themselves!

So, considering that AL is THE Class A Book-I'll nominate the musical interpretation as a Class AA!

(and I KNOW these two Creators would very quickly turn down such a designation-! But it's pretty clear to me that they worked their Magick with a Double Wand!)

πŸ™‚

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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We could probably put together a curriculum of music that we consider "Class A". And why not gather all the best composers and bands who are still around and put together "Aiwass Fest".

At the top of my list for Class A music is Death in June's "She Said Destroy", the 12" version with samples which set the scene at the beginning and end of the track. It is a powerful account of the experience of initiation, and has served me well as a guiding light on my own path.

Of all Killing Jokes overtly magickal tracks, I think "Tiahuanaco" is the most likely contender for Class A status because it illustrates the other world communicating with the Magus and showing him the path he must take. The determination to raise humanity up and improve the lot of all, even the slaves, is surely the greatest thing a magician can do for his pittiful fellows.

And Soleflads "Speed Increased to Scaffold" is also a fantastic account of the Great Work which definately sounds like it came from the fourth dimention.


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 Anonymous
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To give something a class A status is very specific. It means that it is Thelemic and it is a divine transmission. To be fair to Crowley, it also means that it has been written since his death, as he could have awarded it whilst he was alive. Then the question really means; does anyone think there has been a class A text written since Crowley's death? Difficult one indeed!

I think there are books that should be added to the A.:A.: reading list. Gardners' full Book Of Shadows for a start. Liber Null & Psychonaut is a very important too. All of Austin Spare's work. In fact there are many books that should be in the Thelemic library that aren't mentioned by Crowley, yet were arround when he was. I suppose he too only had so much time though. The Tantras, the work of the surealists, some of the more radical post Nietzschian philosophy too.

Whether any of these books were class A is another matter. I don't know of any I would award that status too personally. Not in the published world anyway. I have a few very inspired pages in my magickal diary. That may not yet be a book as such though.

Perhaps in the sense of Thelema Beyond Crowley we have reached an impasse? In that noone is half the writer he was. That is nothing to be ashamed of though. If we look at the hundred or so books he has written you are forced to reach the conclusion that Crowley to the occult world, is as prolific as Shakepseare is to playwriting, if not more so. I doubt anyone will equal him, let alone beat him. Perhaps we don't need another Shakespeare, perhaps we need an Einstein or a Newton at least instead?


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 Anonymous
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Back to the subject of this post. 'The Diamond Sutra' - yes yes yes! I'd also elevate to this category the later terse and aphoristic works of Wei Wu Wei such as 'All Else is Bondage'. Kenneth Grant's 'The Wisdom of S'lba' is worthy of this category. I'd include Nietzsche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra'. I'll come back later with a few more works.

I would agree wholeheartedly, especially Wei Wu Wei's work. He seemed to be able to recall/recreate those states of altered conciousness that characterise a Class A document rather consistently. I can't believe no-one yet mentioned Liber Pennae Pennumbra or The Feast of the Hive by Nema!


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 Anonymous
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I would place much of Rumi's Poetry and Kahilil Gibran's "The Prophet" in Class A.

To give something a class A status is very specific. It means that it is Thelemic and it is a divine transmission.

Perhaps I am splitting hairs here. To say that a Class A must be both "Thelemic and Divine," in a purely logical frame implies that there are Divine Transmissions which are not Thelemic. If this was your intent I would be interested in your understanding of the matter.

Allow me the liberty to take a stab at defending this position. There are Divine Transmissions occurring all around us all the time. Our ability to receive them depends upon breaking through the personal ego, then after breaking through the ego, one must be able to digest the content of the message. Each man will only be able to digest the content of a divine transmission to his understanding (which corresponds to the effort one has put into the Work) and to the level of consciousness of his state. To recieve a divine transmission at a Thelemic level of consciousness represents a rather deep understanding of the Microcosim and Macrocosim, a sort of fusion between the two, a meeting of Heaven and Earth. There then are divine works and DIVINE works. Most divine works are fragmentary, dis-membered, mixed with ego, not fully digested, but none-the-less, flashes of divinity.

Class A would be of the highest order, of a Master. Impressions digested into the finest of matter, so fine in fact that the text has a way of infiltrating, re-membering unconnected data of the Macrocosm and re-membering the legions within. We move closer to our True Will only through bringing about a unity within.

A Thelemic and Divine work would be a Divine work at a Thelemic level of consciousness. If it were not the work of a Master we would rephrase this, change that, fill in what he/she missed here, or simply not be carried there, where divinity sits. The work of a Master is also a work of quality.

As Above, So Below

Milo


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