Correspondences bet...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Correspondences between Crowley´s pre-1904 works and Liber AL  

  RSS

 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/05/2013 9:13 pm  

93,

I took the idea for this topic from the "Kill me!/Fill me!"-thread from Jamie barter. He wrote, quoting me, the following...

"Quote from: Azoneris on Yesterday at 07:56:13 pm

"93,

Aside the example I gave above I remember reading Collected Works and being struck by some similarities compared with Liber AL. For example, Crowley used the expression "the girders of the soul" (I don´t remember where) which has similarities with AL III:61: "There is an end of the word of the God enthroned in Ra's seat, lightening the girders of the soul." Also I remember reading somewhere in the Collected Works again something directed to Isis (if my  memory serves me right) and it had a lot of stylistic similarities with the first chapter of the Book of the Law. If I remember right it even had as direct parallels as to actually read "To me! To me!" (as in AL I:65) which would be closely linked with AL I:52, I:62, I:63 and in particular with the aforementioned 1:65. We all know the close similarities between Nuit and Isis. I would need to check my sources better but maybe someone else can help me with this if someone remembers any better or can find the sources better than I (like the exact quotes from the Collected Works)?

My point is however something like that it´s easy to see Israel Regardies point that Liber AL could reasonably be argued to be a product of Crowley´s subconscious mind, especially as similarities like described above can be found from the sources between Liber AL and Crowley´s works before Liber AL´s dictation in 1904 e.v.

But the other point would be something like that Crowley´s Holy Guardian Angel, that is Aiwass, is understandably speaking to him with a language that speaks to him, probably more than to any other, in a way which serves him the best, directly with an enormous power, using the expressions that he himself uses and "understands" the best and easiest. Similarily, I could think that if anyone would now perform an Abramelin Operation it could be that his/her HGA, if dictating him/her a book, would use language, style and expressions with which he/she is most familiar and close. Just my thoughts - feel free to reflect them further.

Excuse this light sidetracking and off-topic.

93 93/93"

Just briefly in response to the sidetrack, yes I noticed that on several occasions in the “Collected Works” too, in which a lot of the entries pre-date 1904.  They did strike me as rather odd ‘coincidences’ at the time, but either of the possible solutions you have given seem to fit.  (I would have thought that examples would have been listed somewhere on Lashtal during its twenty year history, but am not myself aware of them.  If they do not, though, that may well be a valuable topic to introduce under a different thread?)

N. Joy"

I opened this mainly to make this its own thread as it seems to deserve (?). So, feel free to continue from this if you feel like it. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts concerning this that have not yet been said?

Maybe I should also underline that if you are able to draw correspondences between any material that Crowley wrote in 1904 e.v. before the dictation of the Book of the Law and Liber AL, then that´s acceptable for analysis too. I am not sure if he wrote any material during that time though.

93 93/93


Quote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
31/05/2013 10:42 am  

BOTL-resemblances in AC story AC dated to 1902... :

Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum in The Works of Aleister Crowley Volume II, is a thirteen page long story starting on page 212 and ending on page 224 in said book. This story is about a "Great and Wonderful Magician", "Father and Founder" (page 224) of a "holy and illustrious Order" (page 218). There are numerous resemblances between Aleister Crowley's story Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum which he dated to 1902 - a story where a The Book of the Law is mentioned - and The Book of the Law which he dated to 1904. 

Aleister Crowley wrote Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum in the form of the message of a supremely knowledgeable master communicted through a scribe chosen by said master, and this resembles how The Book of the Law which Crowley dated to 1904, is written in the form of a message communicated through him as its chosen scribe and prophet.       

                             
On page 214 in said Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum which Aleister Crowley dated to 1902, a goddess is described in relation to the firmament, and the goddess Nuit is described in relation to the firmament in The Book of the Law which Aleister Crowley dated to 1904. The said description of a godess in relation to the firmament in Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, is written next to the following words written in he left margin: "Terrae Ultor Anima Terrae." [Terrae Ultor Anima Terrae = "The Avenger of the Earth The soul of the Earth" [my translation]].

On page 215, next to the word "Dignitates." [Dignitates = "Dignities" [my translation]] written in the right margin, the main character is tested with a riddle by "the Hierophant who had initiated him of old." How the main character, which is here called "our Father", solves this riddle, is described in the following way:

"And our Father being cunning to place Aleph over Tau [italicized by me] read this reverse, and so beheld Eden, even now in the flesh." [Underlining by me]. (In this text from 1902, Crowley seems to be writing about reading the Hebrew letters of "the Tree of Life" in reverse order. This resembles and predates what is considered a major contribution from Charles Stansfeld Jones' (aka Frater Achad) to "Thelemic Kabbalah". Namely considering "the Serpent of [glow=red,2,300]Wisdom[/glow]" as climbing up "the Tree of Life", and hence climbing by the paths numbered in exact reverse to the traditional aleph-to-tav order Kabbalah, and this implies reading the Hebrew letters of "the Tree of Life" in reverse order.) ["Reverse reading" of the Hebrew letters of "the Tree of Life" was known before the lifetime of both Aleister Crowley and Charles Stansfeld Jones: "... the aleph-to-tavorder is known as seder ha-yashar ("the straight order"), the tav-to-aleph order is known as seder hehafuch, the reversed system." Source: http://www.erica-schultz.com/writing/prose/alefbet1.htm --- "The Mystical Dimensions of the Aleph-Bet" by Erica L. Schultz.] Aleister Crowley and Charles Stansfeld Jones had a permanent falling out due to, among other Things, the latter's kabbalistic interpretations of "the Tree of Life".)

How a riddle from "the Hierophant" in Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum involves reverse reading, has resemblance to the following words from Ra-Hoor-Khuit, in verse 73 of chapter 3, of The Book of the Law:

"Paste the sheets from right to left and from top to bottom: then behold!" [underlining by me].                     

Later on page 215, next to the word "Sophia." (greek word for [glow=red,2,300]Wisdom[/glow]) written in the right margin, the "Great and Wonderful Magician", "Father and Founder (page 224)" which is the main character in Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, is describes as comming "to Her who had initated him before he was intiated", and she giving "him gifs" while he "abode eight days and twenty days" "with her". This is explained like this in the footnote number three on page 215: "The houses of Moon. All the gifts are lunar symbols."

On page 216 - next to the words "Puella Urget Sophiam Sodalibus." [Puella Urget Sophiam Sodalibus = "The girl Sophia urges members" [my translation]] written in the left margin - the final gifts is described as her giving "him all herself", and giving "him the great and perfect gift of Magic".

Sophia giving "him all herself" is described on the same page in this way:

"And the marriage of that virgin was on this wise: She had three arrows, yet but two flanks, and the wise men said that who knew two was three, should know three was eight, if the circle were but squared [underlining by me].; and this also one day shall ye know, my Brethren!" (This is explained like this in the footnote number two on the same page: "The equality of three and eight is attributed to Binah, a high grade of Theurgic attainment.")

The above quote concerning a symbolic marriage described In Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, documents Aleister Crowley already in 1902 writing about a mystery with resemblance to the mystery of "this circle squared" written about in verse 47 of chapter three in The Book of the Law, at least two years before the writing of The Book of the Law which Aleister Crowley dated to 1904.         

                 
On the pages 218 and 219 in said Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, Nechesh, the Serpent, is understood as Messiah and Redeemer, this has resemblance to how the word serpent is used in The Book of the Law.
                                   

On page 219 in said Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, various beliefs are criticised including a direct criticism of the Jews, this criticism - except for the direct criticism of the Jews - has resemblance to the attacks on various beliefs contained within The Book of the Law which Aleister Crowley dated to 1904. 

On page 221,(with the following word written next to it in the right margin "Ordinis Inceptio" [Ordinis Inceptio = "The Starting Order of things" [my translation]]), "our sacred Book" is described in relation to "eagles" and "their shadow floating over the desert" being "as a book that men might read it. The shadows" writing "and the sun" recording.

Crowley's description of the "sacred Book" or "the Book of the Law" that he describes in Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, as somehow representing nature itself, has resemblance to him writing the following in his The New Comment to the first verse of the first chapter of The Book of the Law which he dated to 1904:

"The theogony of our Law is entirely scientific, Nuit is Matter, Hadit is Motion, in their full physical sense."

Here I have only described some of the resemblances between The Book of the Law Aleister Crowley claimed that he received 1904, how he presented said book, and Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, a story by him which he dated to have been written two years earlier in 1902, and where a "sacred Book" also called "the Book of the Law" is described.

My point is that I find it likely that these numerous resemblances exist due to Aleister Crowley already in 1902 working on the concept that later became "The Book of the Law" of his Thelema.       


ReplyQuote
William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1090
31/05/2013 11:35 am  

T-errae U-ltor A-nima T-errae = TUAT
P-uella U-rget S-ophiam S-odalibus = PUSS

hmm....beginning to see a pattern here...


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
31/05/2013 12:05 pm  

Yes I did do some research years ago and made a few notes on the (5 or 6?) instances where I noticed a resemblance, but am not sure where they are now.  Wellreadwellbred has well addressed the matter also as it occurs in A.M.H.R., & may have already covered some of them.  Perhaps I will try and dig them out in the absence of anyone else providing anything else… (- “that’s the wonder of Woolworths – I mean Lashtal!”  No promises from my end, though)

(Incidentally, I thought it was a tad much of Paul to blame me for the ‘noise’ percolating the “kill me/ fill me” (sounds like the chorus from some punko outfit) thread – as can be clearly seen from supra, I did note that it was a parenthetical side-swerve, and that I preferred it not to continue & detract from the main subject - & even suggested it go another thread (which has now been done)!  I don’t see why I should be held responsible when others were making far more divergent speculations AND not suggesting that they could be removed either!)

Attempting to lighten the girders of the soul while feeling ever-so-slightly aggrieved…
Norma N. Joy Conquest


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
31/05/2013 1:57 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
BOTL-resemblances in AC story AC dated to 1902... :

[...]

Very interesting post, wrwb. Thanks for writing it up.

It almost sounds like the 'AMHR' was a type of rough draft for Liber L.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
31/05/2013 11:16 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
(Incidentally, I thought it was a tad much of Paul to blame me for the ‘noise’ percolating the “kill me/ fill me” (sounds like the chorus from some punko outfit) thread – as can be clearly seen from supra, I did note that it was a parenthetical side-swerve, and that I preferred it not to continue & detract from the main subject - & even suggested it go another thread (which has now been done)!  I don’t see why I should be held responsible when others were making far more divergent speculations AND not suggesting that they could be removed either!)

Attempting to lighten the girders of the soul while feeling ever-so-slightly aggrieved…

So take it up with Paul elsewhere. It's got nothing to do with this thread.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5328
01/06/2013 12:02 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
So take it up with Paul elsewhere. It's got nothing to do with this thread.

Very true. Back to the topic, all.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
03/06/2013 5:40 pm  

I wasn’t making a big issue out of this, and was fairly lightly reporting the matter although it seemed to have some foundation to it.  I don’t mind acting as the sole scapegoat named as it is not a role I am altogether unaccustomed to performing, but it would be nice if it could be based upon the actual facts which can be seen and determined rather than assumptions...!

Yes, let's return to this interesting topic (although it rather seems to have dried up in the aftermath)

Acting the goat (?),
N. Joy


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
12/06/2013 12:25 am  

The following written on page 213 in said Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, might be of some interest in respect of the running debate concerning The Book of the Law, and whether to let some kind of light described in the latter said book "fill me" or kill me".

"Our Father passed into the fire. Some say that it consumed him utterly and that he died; howbeit, it is certain that he rose from a sarcophagus, and in the skies stood an angel with a trumpet, and on that trumpet he blew so mighty a blast that the dead rose all from their tombs, and our Father among them. "Now away!" he cried. "I would look upon the sun!" And with that the fire hissed like a myriad of serpents and went out suddenly." This is written underneath the word "Intellectus." [Intellectus = "Understanding" [my translation]] written in the right margin on page 213, and next to the word "Deus." [Deus = "God" [my translation]] written in the right margin on page 213.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5328
12/06/2013 12:33 am  

I'm enjoying your posts on this thread, wellreadwellbred. Thank you.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
13/06/2013 3:12 pm  

Thanks lashtal.

On page 222 in the said version of AMBROSII MAGI HORTUS ROSARUM, the main character is described as saying the following words on the day of his death:

"To you I have no word to say. All is written in the sacred Book. To that look ye well!"

This has some resemblance to Aleister Crowley in The Equinox of the Gods (first published in 1936) claiming that The Book of the Law which he dates to 1904, is "the Key to the resolution of all human problems, both philosophical and practical."


ReplyQuote
abn53
(@abn53)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 66
15/06/2013 3:49 pm  

Unfortunately AMHR is not an often read book. Its original, as an appendix in Sword of Song, is only found in the Collected Works, Volume II. It took me many years to get a copy of SoS. This discussion is encouraging me to spend more time with this neglected work, for which I have  had passing interest for a long time. I do like the idea of returning to original sources (if they can be found) to see the development of thought, and attribute them properly.


ReplyQuote
OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
15/06/2013 5:38 pm  

Azoneris’s and Wellreadwellbred’s observations are accurate but I don’t think they will bear the weight that some of us might feel tempted to place on them.

For examples the notion of the Serpent ascending the Paths of the Tree of Life - set against the Lightning Flash descending the Tree through the Sephiroth - is completely unrelated to, and at odds with, the notions of Frater Achad; it comes straight from the Golden Dawn who almost certainly got it second hand themselves. The concept of [the impossibility of] ‘squaring the circle’ dates back to the ancient Greeks. The phrase “loosening the girders of the soul” comes from The Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster and most ancient faiths had their Sacred Books and Books of the Law from The Codes of Hamurabi to the Torah of the Jews.

This is mainly the bric-a-brac of the well stocked Victorian occult mind. Anyone wanting to stock up on such bric-a-brac could do worse than go through the Syllabus of the A.’.A.’. (in ABA, MTP or the Equinox)

Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum itself is not really a ‘story’ it is a satire on The Chymical Marriage of Christian Rosencreutz and takes an occasional swipe at Golden Dawn worthies. For instance Sapiens Dominabitur Astris, S. S. D. D , Deo Duce Comite Ferro, Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum etc.

As William Thirteen points out the Latin side-notes are mainly ribald jokes. For example next to the passage “And he ran to her and by force embraced her. Struggled she and fought him: savagely she bit, but it was of no avail: she lay ravished and exhausted on the Lybian plain.” Is the Latin; “Femina Rapota Inspirat Gaudium” whose initials form the acronym FRIG. Set against the text  “…. for in thy pen is, as it were, a river of clear water; without vagueness, without ambiguity…..” is the note “Pater Jubet Scientam Scribe” (PJSS). There are plenty more if anyone cares to look.

I’m not pretending to get all the meanings in AMHR and Aleister has a few hard words for anyone who can’t keep up. “For, as for him that understandeth not thy writing, and that easily and well, be ye well assured all that he is a vile man and a losel of little worth or worship; a dog, an unclean swine, a worm of filth, a festering sore in the vitals of earth: such an one is liar and murderer, debauched, drunken, sexless, and spatulate; an ape-dropping, a lousy, flat-backed knave ………”

OK


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/06/2013 4:35 pm  

Moderator's Note

Deleted at poster's request.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
03/07/2013 4:50 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
Azoneris’s and Wellreadwellbred’s observations are accurate but I don’t think they will bear the weight that some of us might feel tempted to place on them.

For examples the notion of the Serpent ascending the Paths of the Tree of Life - set against the Lightning Flash descending the Tree through the Sephiroth - is completely unrelated to, and at odds with, the notions of Frater Achad; it comes straight from the Golden Dawn who almost certainly got it second hand themselves.

"... Crowley’s attack on Jones’ Qabalistic ideas was [...] baseless. The reversal of the Serpent of Wisdom is hardly an original idea, having been utilized long ago; but anyway, this reversal leads to extraordinary insights into the Qabalistic Tree of Life." Source: http://holythelemicchurch.wordpress.com/tag/frater-achad/ --- "Thelemic History: Achad’s Ascension"

"OKontrair" wrote:
The concept of [the impossibility of] ‘squaring the circle’ dates back to the ancient Greeks. The phrase “loosening the girders of the soul” comes from The Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster and most ancient faiths had their Sacred Books and Books of the Law from The Codes of Hamurabi to the Torah of the Jews.

This is mainly the bric-a-brac of the well stocked Victorian occult mind. Anyone wanting to stock up on such bric-a-brac could do worse than go through the Syllabus of the A.’.A.’. (in ABA, MTP or the Equinox)

In respect of Correspondences between Crowley´s pre-1904 works and Liber AL, it is my overall impression that Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law [= Liber L or Liber AL], entirely or almost entirely contains ideas or concepts dating back to a time long before 1904.

The words "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." [1:40] in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, are of course predated by the words "Do What Thou Wilt;", which is the one clause to be observed in the Abbey of Thélème - an obvious and direct inspiration for The Abbey of Thelema that Crowley tried to establish - which the French Renaissance writer François Rabelais (c. 1494 – 9 April 1553) wrote about.

The words "Love is the law, love under will." [1:57] in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, are predated by the millennia old concept that divine love or God's love is not unconditional, but is subordinate to divine will or God's will. 

Both the words "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." [1:40] and the words "Love is the law, love under will." [1:57], are accentuated in THE COMMENT which Crowley wrote to his 1904-dated Book of the Law in 1925 while visiting Tunis. They are accentuated respectively above and below the main text of The Comment written in 1925, a comment which from then on became an addition to subsequently publicated editions of Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law.     

Crowley did of course present his 1904-dated Book of the Law as something much more than just the sum of the old concepts or ideas contained within it.

"OKontrair" wrote:
I’m not pretending to get all the meanings in AMHR [= Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum] and Aleister has a few hard words for anyone who can’t keep up. [...]

In a note near the bottom of the first page of Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, Crowley provides the following indication of the importance of the qabalistic knowledge contained within this text: "It would require many pages to give even a sketch of this remarkable document. The Qabalistic knowledge is as authentic as it is profound, [...]" As Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum is a text only thirteen pages long, a kabbalistic/qabalistic analysis of it will be easily doable.


ReplyQuote
Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 526
03/07/2013 10:23 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
The words "Love is the law, love under will." [1:57] in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, are predated by the millennia old concept that divine love or God's love is not unconditional, but is subordinate to divine will or God's will. 

" Love is the only universal law, which rules the infinite spaces and displays an irresistable action everywhere that life reigns, and a people among whom the nupital practices are always in conformity with the eternal laws constitutes a great magical chain, binding the material sphere to the higher spheres.

From that there results an alliance of human forces with divine or spiritual forces, & the intelligence of Man then acquires the possibility of dominating both here and there. Mankind becomes the master of good and evil and makes use of it according to his will. "

~~~~ excerpt from 'Magia Sexualis' by Paschal Beverly Randolph (1825-1875)


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
04/07/2013 4:37 am  

"It's a filthy word love. Love implies two. There is a division there." - U.G. Krishnamutri

"For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." - Liber L I:29

[flash=200,200:2sy9vw4a] http://www.youtube.com/v/GBx9IDMZfIA[/flash:2sy9vw4a]


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
04/07/2013 12:59 pm  

Horemakhet, I am not sure about how certain it is that Aleister Crowley did read 'Magia Sexualis' by Paschal Beverly Randolph (1825-1875) before he wrote his 1904-dated Book of the Law, or if he read it later on, or if he ever read it at all.

By the time of his matriculation at Trinity College, Cambridge in the autumn term of 1895, at the age of 19, Crowley was first able to step free of his family and their narrow intellectual atmosphere which forbade virtually all literature. Source: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html --- "Aleister Crowley: freemason!" By Bro. Martin P. Starr.

My point in relating the words "Love is the law, love under will." [1:57] in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, to the millennia old concept that divine love or God's love is not unconditional, but is subordinate to divine will or God's will, is that Aleister Crowley due to his childhood and youth spent within the domain of the fundamentalist, aeonic, and apocalyptic Christian sect the Plymouth Brethren, would be extremely familiar with this millennia old concept. 
 

"Azidonis" wrote:
"It's a filthy word love. Love implies two. There is a division there." - U.G. Krishnamutri

"For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." - Liber L I:29

On page 215 of the Collected Works volume II 1906 edition of Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, the "Great and Wonderful Magician", and "Father and Founder" of a "holy and illustrious Order" which is the main character, is given a Hierophantic task or challenge (compare to the Hierophantic task mentioned in The Book of the Law 1:50). The main character solves this Hierophantic task or challenge, "and so beheld Eden, even now in the flesh" (page 215). [Underlining and emphasis by me].

My point is that we in The Cry of the 7th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice, as readers are asked to compare "the nature of Eden" with the following two verses in in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law:

"For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." - Liber Legis 1:29, and "This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all." - Liber Legis 1:30. 

Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr7.html#12 --- The Vision and the Voice, or Book 418, or LIBER XXX AERUM Vel Saecvli Svb Figvra CCCCXVIII, The Cry of the 7th Aethyr, Which is Called DEO.

Further down in the same Aethyr the following is written about a condition concerning love/Love that must be fulfilled in order proceed completely or fully beyond "the frontiers of Eden":

"These that thou seest are indeed the Black Brothers, for it is written: "He shall laugh at their calamity and mock them when their fear cometh." And therefore hath he exalted them unto the plane of love.

And yet again it is written: He desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his wickedness. Now, if one of these were to cast off his cloak he should behold the brilliance of the lady of the Aethyr; but they will not.

And yet again there is another cause wherefore He hath permitted them to enter thus far within the frontiers of Eden, so that His thought should never swerve from compassion. But do thou behold the brilliance of Love, that casteth forth seven stars upon thine head from her right hand, and crowneth thee with a crown of seven roses." [Underlinings and emphasises by me].


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
04/07/2013 2:25 pm  

A correction:

"Further down in the same Aethyr the following is written about a condition concerning love/Love that must be fulfilled in order proceed completely or fully beyond "the frontiers of Eden":", was intended to be written like this by me:

"Further down in the same Aethyr the following is written about a condition concerning love/Love that must be fulfilled in order [glow=red,2,300]to[/glow]proceed completely or fully beyond "the frontiers of Eden":"

And a clarification:

In respect of the subject matter of this thread "Correspondences between Crowley´s pre-1904 works and Liber AL": I detect Eden as something Crowley was interested in, in his pre-1904 work, and i also detect that this interest has some correspondence to how Aleister Crowley presents his 1904-dated Book of the Law or Liber AL, or to how he presents parts of the latter book.


ReplyQuote
Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
04/07/2013 4:32 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
My point is that we in The Cry of the 7th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice, as readers are asked to compare "the nature of Eden" with the following two verses in in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law:

"For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." - Liber Legis 1:29, and "This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all." - Liber Legis 1:30. 

So compare them. Measure them. Do anything you like with them. It won't change their natures.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
05/07/2013 3:39 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
So compare them. Measure them. Do anything you like with them. It won't change their natures.

The nature of Crowley's aforementioned writings on the subject of Eden, are that Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum from 1902 is defined by Crowley as a "remarkable document", where "The Qabalistic knowledge is as authentic as it is profound", and where "The main satire is of course on the "Chymical Marriage of Christian Rosencreutz."

As for the the nature of Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, and Crowley's 1900 and 1909 dated book The Vision and the Voice, and these two books and their relationship to the subject of Eden, they are both Class A books, with the latter also containing Class B material.

That "the nature of Eden" can be seen in - or compared to - the verses 1:29 and 1:30 in Crowley's 1904-dated Book of the Law, a book that according to Crowley has the nature of a Class A text, is actually something that is stated within a part of Crowley's 1900 and 1909 dated book The Vision and the Voice, that as far as i know according to Crowley also has the nature of a Class A text.

*In respect of the nature of the aforementioned texts, it can also be mentioned that Crowley considered The Vision and the Voice to be second in importance behind The Book of the Law.

In short:

Crowley writes about Eden in his Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum (1902). He does not write about Eden in his The Book of the Law (1904) of a Class A nature. But he writes about Eden again in his book The Vision and the Voice of a Class A and B nature. And within a as far as i know Class A part of the latter book, it is claimed that "the nature of Eden" can be seen in - or compared to - the verses 1:29 and 1:30 in the former book of a Class A nature.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
05/07/2013 4:00 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
Crowley writes about Eden in his Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum (1902). He does not write about Eden in his The Book of the Law (1904) of a Class A nature. But he writes about Eden again in his book The Vision and the Voice of a Class A and B nature. And within a as far as i know Class A part of the latter book, it is claimed that "the nature of Eden" can be seen in - or compared to - the verses 1:29 and 1:30 in the former book of a Class A nature.

So what conclusion do you draw from that?


ReplyQuote
nigris
(@nigris)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 6
21/07/2013 12:14 am  
"Horemakhet" wrote:
"Love is the only universal law, which rules the infinite spaces and displays an irresistable action everywhere that life reigns, and a people among whom the nupital practices are always in conformity with the eternal laws constitutes a great magical chain, binding the material sphere to the higher spheres.

From that there results an alliance of human forces with divine or spiritual forces, & the intelligence of Man then acquires the possibility of dominating both here and there. Mankind becomes the master of good and evil and makes use of it according to his will. " ~~~~ excerpt from 'Magia Sexualis' by Paschal Beverly Randolph (1825-1875)

"Remember, O neophyte, that Goodness alone is Power, Silence is Strength, Will reigns Omnipotent, and Love lieth at the Foundation."
- 'The Mysteries of Eulis', Vth section, by Paschal Beverly Randolph, 1874.


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
17/05/2014 1:54 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
Crowley writes about Eden in his Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum (1902). He does not write about Eden in his The Book of the Law (1904) of a Class A nature. But he writes about Eden again in his book The Vision and the Voice of a Class A and B nature. And within a as far as i know Class A part of the latter book, it is claimed that "the nature of Eden" can be seen in - or compared to - the verses 1:29 and 1:30 in the former book of a Class A nature.

So what conclusion do you draw from that?

"Crowley" wrote:
Confessions, chapter 6: "I was trying to take the view that the Christianity of hypocrisy and cruelty was not true Christianity. I did not hate God or Christ, but merely the God and Christ of the people whom I hated. It was only when the development of my logical faculties supplied the demonstration that I was compelled to set myself in opposition to the Bible itself. It does not matter that the literature is sometimes magnificent and that in isolated passages the philosophy and ethics are admirable. The sum of the matter is that Judaism is a savage, and Christianity a fiendish, superstition."

From that, and referring to the quote from Crowley above, I conclude that Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself" is likely to have influenced the references he makes to Eden, both in relation to Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum which he dated to 1902, in relation to The Book of Law which he dated to 1904 and presented as the most important book within his religion of Thelema, and in relation to The Vision and the Voice which he mostly dated to 1909 and presented as the second most important book within his religion of Thelema.

With respect to Crowly's references to Eden in relation to his just mentioned writings, it is my position that Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself", is reflected in his rejection of the Bible teaching that it is only God who will redeem all creation, and his claims that Eden - or the nature of Eden - can be regained through human efforts.

For example through being cunning to place Aleph over Tau and read the Sephiroth* in reverse, so as to behold "Eden, even now in the flesh", as Crowley writes in Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum. (Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/collected-works/ii/collected-v2.3.txt) Or for example that that Eden can be regained through love (under will), as demonstrated by Crowley's reference to The Book of the Law, right after the words "the nature of Eden" in The Cry of the 7th Aethyr - http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-vision-and-the-voice/aethyr7.html - where Adam and Eve is also written about and explained - in The Vision and the Voice, indicating that "the nature of Eden" can be seen in - or compared to - the verses 1:29 and 1:30 in The Book of the Law:

29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.

30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.

*In a note near the bottom of the first page of Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum, it is defined by Crowley as a "remarkable document", where "The Qabalistic knowledge is as authentic as it is profound, [...]." 

In the the thread "Liber L. vel Bogus - The real confession of Aleister Crowley" - http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php?topic=6399.150 - I write more concerning Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself", and why it is likely to have influenced his choice of the (according to Richard Kaczynski in his Crowley biography Perdurabo (2nd ed.), p. 3) Bible-inspired name Perdurabo in 1898, along similar lines to how his compelling "opposition to the Bible itself" is also reflected in how The Book of the Law is written.


ReplyQuote
Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
17/05/2014 4:39 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
From that, and referring to the quote from Crowley above, I conclude that Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself" is likely to have influenced the references he makes to Eden
[...]
With respect to Crowly's references to Eden in relation to his just mentioned writings, it is my position that Crowley's compelling "opposition to the Bible itself", is reflected in his rejection of the Bible teaching that it is only God who will redeem all creation, and his claims that Eden - or the nature of Eden - can be regained through human efforts.

Ah, so your claim is that Crowley's opposition to the Bible influenced his references to Eden! Wow! And that his idea that humans can reclaim Eden actually reflects his opposition to the Bible? Amazing!

What a stunning insight! Why have I never thought of this before??!

Oh, wait. It's not a stunning insight. It's a statement of the incredibly obvious.

I think what you're trying to say is that Crowley's idea that humans can "reclaim Eden" is one that can be traced throughout his life, from as early as his youthful rejection of the Bible, to works preceding Liber Legis, to passages in Liber Legis that we can interpret in ways consistent with that view, to his later works that present such an interpretation of Liber Legis.

And I guess that's true, but what's the point of observing that? What claim do these facts support, and how?

You've been making these imponderably dull posts for years now, wellread, and I still have no idea what you're driving at. 


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
17/05/2014 10:54 pm  
"Los" wrote:
What claim do these facts support, and how? You've been making these imponderably dull posts for years now, wellread, and I still have no idea what you're driving at.

These facts support what you describe as "the incredibly obvious", that Crowley's ideas that can be traced throughout his life, from as early as when he was a youth or in his twenties. Like his youthful rejection of the Bible. Or the "enlightened understanding" he in chapter 14 of The Confessions describes as having reached sometime after meditating upon the fact of mortality in 1897, that "the proof of his prowess lay in the invisible influence which he ..." could have "... upon generations of men." And I am driving at that such facts and ideas are likely to have influenced Crowley's writing of what he presented as the most holy book for a new era for the whole world.

The just mentioned facts and ideas are more in line with the general tendencies towards non-supernatural psychologizing and naturalizing that you have correctly pointed out in Crowley's writings, but in contradiction to Crowley's claim to be the prophet of a new religion, Thelema, as revealed by a “praeter-human intelligence", later identified as his own Holy Guardian Angel, but not identified as merely an aspect of Crowley’s unconscious.

In the conclusion to his article first published in 2011, Varieties of Magical Experience: Aleister Crowley's Views on Occult Practice, Marco Pasi, author of Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics, and Assistant Professor at the centre for the History of Hermetic Philosophy and related currents, University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands, writes that Crowley had a "... need to maintain a belief in preternatural entities ...", and that "... Crowley could not go all the way down to a complete naturalization and psychologization of magic, because he needed to preserve the universal claims of his religion, ...".


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
21/01/2020 1:35 pm  
 
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:

" Love is the only universal law, which rules the infinite spaces and displays an irresistable action everywhere that life reigns, and a people among whom the nupital practices are always in conformity with the eternal laws constitutes a great magical chain, binding the material sphere to the higher spheres.

From that there results an alliance of human forces with divine or spiritual forces, & the intelligence of Man then acquires the possibility of dominating both here and there. Mankind becomes the master of good and evil and makes use of it according to his will. "

~~~~ excerpt from 'Magia Sexualis' by Paschal Beverly Randolph (1825-1875)

Just a side note-- ''Magia Sexualis'' is almost certainly the work of Maria Naglowski, and not Dr. Randolph. Naglowski claimed to have translated it, but no privately circulated book, booklet or paper with this information is known, and no manuscript in Dr. Randolph's hand survives. It is entirely possible that Naglowski was taught these techniques as coming from Dr. Randolph, it is equally possible she was aware of Randolph's works then being republished in the United States, and put forward her own work in his tradition and methodology under his name. ''Magia Sexualis'' puts forward a different formula/method than that which Dr. Randolph put forward in his privately published pamphlet ''The Anseiratic Mysteries''. 


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
21/01/2020 1:45 pm  

Oh, and on the topic of this thread, a number of insights can also be made comparing what has been said in this topic to Part One of David Allan Hulse's ''Genesis of the Book of the Law.'' 


ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3213
21/01/2020 2:15 pm  

What might some of those insights be? Not inclined to spend $49 on a book without more.

Nice to see you posting again, BTW.


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
21/01/2020 9:50 pm  

Well, I will tell you that IMO, it's one of the three or four most important books on Liber XXXI/Liber L written in the last 40 years. Richard Cole referred me to it about 15 years ago, at that time it was three pamphlets from Holmes Publishing and out of print, going for $30+ apiece, if you could find them. Well worth the effort to find a copy. It doesn't give you answers, but it gives you an entirely new level of questions. Up there with Marlene Cornelius' ''Liber AL - An Examination'' and ''Magickal and Philosophical Commentaries'', one of the best.

Speaking of ''Ambrosii Magi Horus Rosarum'', he points out that the actual title 'The Book of the Law' appears in the penultimate stanza of this verse poem-- "So also with the lesser relics, of which are notably only; to the Order, the heart of our Father, to the Book of the Law, his venerable lung space to serve as a shrine there unto."

I don't think anyone's mentioned that...

 


ptoner liked
ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3213
21/01/2020 10:01 pm  

Actually, @wellreadwellbred has a recent thread that mentions this very thing...


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
22/01/2020 3:31 am  

Oh, I found it, dated 05/31/13. 

Hulse talks a lot about ABRACADABRA/ABRAHADABRA for 1900, 1901 and 1902, Crowley had designed his eleven pointed star pantacle with ABRAHADABRA spelled out on the points in his magickal diary by 1901, but Hulse notes that Crowley may have first chosen ABRACADABRA, as there seems to be some confusion in ''Ambrosii'', and later changed to ABRAHADABRA because it equals 418.


ptoner and liked
ReplyQuote
ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3213
22/01/2020 6:03 pm  

This was actually the post i meant (i think):

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/various-ii76-cipher-solutions/paged/4/#post-102841


ReplyQuote
wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 1015
23/01/2020 7:18 am  

There is much more about AC's Abracadabra/Abrahadabra switch in the article 'ABRAHADABRA An introduction to its origin and symbolism Tim Paling'.

("© Anno Vv 2019 Two Horizons. All rights reserved. Manifested by Giuseppe and Tikky Zappia. Articles are not to be distributed outside of Two Horizons without express permission." Source: T.H.O.T.H. The House of the Holy a two horizons periodical sparks of intimate fire New Zealand lecture series - - - http://twohorizons.space/Essays/THOTHVolINo3Sparks.pdf  )


You liked
ReplyQuote
Share: