Crowley and his dis...
 
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Crowley and his discrepancies

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Shiva
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Posted by: @threefold31

Sorry if I'm not grasping this all

It cannot be grasped until the mystery is solved. You concluded yourself that...

Posted by: @threefold31

But don't these conflict?

That's why this thread is labeled "Discrepancies." There are many mysteries in the Cairo legend, and each one contains a contradiction.

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

@belmurru

Dwtw

MacLeod has Besant leaving on the Isis on April 18 on p.55 of that document. He repeats this departure time in note 14. His clippings show definitively that the Oceana arrived Port Said and Isis departed therefrom on the same day. So that much, at least, is clear. Doesn't that make Perdurabo ST incorrect? 

Sorry if I'm not grasping this all, but based on the evidence it appears that MacLeod is right about Isis and the 18th. Besant in Rome on April 22 is a pretty key piece of evidence.

 

Litlluw

RLG

Note that Macleod does not "definitively" show that Oceana arrived in Port Said on 18 April. This appears to be an assumption.

Comparing the sources as we have them for Besant's voyage:

Suez is the southern entrance to the canal; Port Said is 170km to the north. Perdurabo ST says that the average transit time through the canal was 18 hours in 1904 (p. 65).

Macleod says: “the Oceana... arrived at Suez in the morning of Monday the eighteenth of April and at Port Said later that day.” (p. 5 – notes 11 and 12)

Perdurabo ST says: “S.S. Oceana … departed from Colombo, Ceylon, on April 8 and arrived at Port Said eleven days later, April 19...” (p. 187 – note 824)

From Macleod we know that Besant left Bombay on the Peninsular, then transferred to Oceana at Aden (p. 4, with passenger list naming “Besant, Mrs Annie”).

Macleod's notes 11 and 12 (p. 59): (11) “R.M.S. Oceana arrived at Suez on 18 April: 'Steamer Movements.', The Pioneer (Calcutta), 23 April, 1904, page 8.” (12) “R.M.S. Oceana departed Port Said for Marseilles: 'Foreign Ports': 'Suez Canal', Shipping Gazette and Lloyd's List (London), 19 April, 1904, page 7.”

Perdurabo ST note 824: “The Times, 'Mail & Shipping Intelligence, (From Lloyd's, &c.)', Tuesday, April 19, 1904, p. 4: 'P. and O.-s […] Oceana, Sydney for London, with the India, China, and Amsterdam mails, arrived Suez yesterday [i.e. April 18th]'... ibid. Wednesday, April 20, 1904, p. 11: 'P. and O.-s […] Oceana, Sydney for London, left Port Said yesterday morning [i.e. April 19th].'”

Finally, Macleod supplies the range of departure times for Isis from Port Said on 18 April, in note 14 on page 59: “R.M.S. Isis departed Port Said for Brindisi on 18 April between 3 p.m. And 11 p.m.” quoting the Shipping Gazette And Lloyd's List (London), 19 April, 1904, p. 7.

Both Macleod and Perdurabo ST use the Lloyd's List source for Oceana's departure date from Port Said, but neither supplies an exact time for arrival at or departure from Port Said. Macleod says that Oceana arrived at Suez in “the morning” on 18 April; from there she began a roughly 18 hour voyage northward. No evidence is given for Macleod's statement that the Oceana “arrived later that day (18 April)” at Port Said.

But we need exact times to clarify whether Besant could have been on the Isis, or could only have used the Osiris. If we allow the latest possible time, 23:00 18 April for Isis departure, and give at least an hour for passenger, mail, and baggage transfer between ships (but that is only my guess), we can reasonably hold that Oceana must have begun her 18 hour journey from Suez no later than 4 a.m. of 18 April.

But both Macleod and Perdurabo ST agree that Oceana departed Port Said on 19 April, which suggests that the ship was not in that much of a hurry if she arrived on 18 April. 

This chronology leaves us with as improbably tight a schedule as that for Besant's taking Osiris to Messina and then to Rome on the same day.


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threefold31
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Posted by: @belmurru

Both Macleod and Perdurabo ST use the Lloyd's List source for Oceana's departure date from Port Said, but neither supplies an exact time for arrival at or departure from Port Said. Macleod says that Oceana arrived at Suez in “the morning” on 18 April; from there she began a roughly 18 hour voyage northward. No evidence is given for Macleod's statement that the Oceana “arrived later that day (18 April)” at Port Said.

But we need exact times to clarify whether Besant could have been on the Isis, or could only have used the Osiris. If we allow the latest possible time, 23:00 18 April for Isis departure, and give at least an hour for passenger, mail, and baggage transfer between ships (but that is only my guess), we can reasonably hold that Oceana must have begun her 18 hour journey from Suez no later than 4 a.m. of 18 April.

But both Macleod and Perdurabo ST agree that Oceana departed Port Said on 19 April, which suggests that the ship was not in that much of a hurry if she arrived on 18 April. 

This chronology leaves us with as improbably tight a schedule as that for Besant's taking Osiris to Messina and then to Rome on the same day.

Dwtw

Thanks for taking the time to line up these chronologies. I was forgetting the long travel time from Suez to Port Said.

I think that if Besant was on the Oceana, arriving Suez on 4-18, she couldn't have made it to the Isis in time for a departure that same day (IDK if ships normally leave at 11 pm, but that seems awfully late). If she couldn't make the Isis departure, then she would have had to spend a night or two in a hotel, waiting for the Osiris to depart on April 20. Perhaps the hotel registers would help in this regard?

Conversely, if no mention of her is made on a hotel register, then the chances increase that she simply went from one ship to another at Port Said. Since both the Oceana and Isis were P.&O. ships, it's possible that they coordinated transferring passengers, etc. from one to the other at Port Said. That tightness of schedule is a little easier to explain than trying to get to Rome from Messina the same day, (well before 6pm no less) using a ferry and a couple trains, or even a more direct transfer to the mainland and one train to Rome. Coordinating two or three conveyances with baggage, etc. is more logistically improbable than hopping from one ship to another.

Litlluw

RLG

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

 

Dwtw

Thanks for taking the time to line up these chronologies. I was forgetting the long travel time from Suez to Port Said.

I think that if Besant was on the Oceana, arriving Suez on 4-18, she couldn't have made it to the Isis in time for a departure that same day (IDK if ships normally leave at 11 pm, but that seems awfully late). If she couldn't make the Isis departure, then she would have had to spend a night or two in a hotel, waiting for the Osiris to depart on April 20. Perhaps the hotel registers would help in this regard?

Conversely, if no mention of her is made on a hotel register, then the chances increase that she simply went from one ship to another at Port Said. Since both the Oceana and Isis were P.&O. ships, it's possible that they coordinated transferring passengers, etc. from one to the other at Port Said. That tightness of schedule is a little easier to explain than trying to get to Rome from Messina the same day, (well before 6pm no less) using a ferry and a couple trains, or even a more direct transfer to the mainland and one train to Rome. Coordinating two or three conveyances with baggage, etc. is more logistically improbable than hopping from one ship to another.

Litlluw

RLG

 

Yes, I'm leaning more to the plausibility of Oceana-Isis transfer than the wild Osiris journey. Perdurabo ST's scenario does not take into account the constraints of Besant's chronology, whether Ben Fernee's old "between 19-22 April" account, already known, or the new fixed date and time, 6 p.m. 22 April. 

I've spent most of the day trying to find out if Crowley wrote any poetry which might mention Messina - or even Palermo - in 1904, or more broadly any time in any way, and come up with nothing relevant so far (as an aside I can say I really enjoy it - as I get older, Crowley gets better. It's like I'm really hearing him). 

I can only point out that Macleod, bottom of page 6, provides facsimiles of the sources of his information for the dates and times of Oceana's arrival at Suez and departure from Port Said. But nothing about the arrival of Oceana at Port Said.

But, he also provides a Times of India "List of departures from Bombay," for 9 April 1904, page 4 bottom right, which strongly suggests that Oceana and Isis would have wanted to hook up:

"Passengers for Brindisi tranship to a connecting steamer at Port Said." This is for Peninsular to Oceana, but Oceana would have telegraphed ahead to any waiting steamers at Port Said as well. 

I don't know if any other steamers besides Isis and Osiris would have been available for Besant at Port Said, but if Crowley's memory is correct, it had to Osiris in any case, which meant that she would have waited at least 24 hours at Port Said before taking it. It just doesn't seem likely that two P&O ships would have missed each other by a matter of a few hours. Plausibility rests with Oceana and Isis having connected. The mail from Australia and India had to get to the Brits in Italy, and it could not be done so easily with Oceana steaming on straight to Marseille.

Nevertheless, proof is lacking. I tried to find any mention in French papers, but that's another bunch of haystacks in which to look for this needle. I'm on the verge of breaking down and giving the extortionists their money for the privilege of searching in these ancient public domain documents. 

 


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ignant666
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Posted by: @belmurru

I'm on the verge of breaking down and giving the extortionists their money for the privilege of searching in these ancient public domain documents. 

Go for it.

When i made a similar decision to break down, and pay to access some ancient LA Times archival stories about the Solar Lodge "Boy In The Box" case, one result was that Frater Shiva started to post here regularly to point out my many mistakes and misunderstandings.

You may well unleash similar forces, or of course may conversely unleash lunatic Spring Bird posters. Or both. Or (sadly) neither, in these Facebook-not-forums days.

Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. [Ecclesiastes 11:1-2]


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

lunatic Spring Bird posters.

I don't know about New York, but New Mexico has entered Summer already. This is reflected in the disappearance of Spring Birds on the thread-lines. RTC showed up, but seems to have flown away, and hard-core researchers are seeking to expose "the truth" of the discrepancies.

Don't worry, it will surely grow colder again, back into Spring Madness, for our entertainment.


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ignant666
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My daffodils went last weekend, and the forsythias are starting to go. No leaves on anything yet. But New York state legalized cannabis last week. So just barely Spring here.

I predict that more lunatics shall soon arise, and bring fresh Spring Bird fever from the skies.

Perhaps we will get some spring conditions reports from Old Mexico (in Mexico) and Old York (in the UK) soon.

 

 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @belmurru

Something doesn't add up.

I have checked P&O again, and only one ship was ever called "Osiris" (although it was renamed "Osiris II" in 1911). 

But there seem to be more Osiri. Two in the Mediterrenean, and a third Osiris went to Sth America, Chili and islands. Here are some more of Colin's files:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24le0dzsss26z44/Osiris%20%2805-04-21%29.zip?dl=0

There is even a page where both Osiri are listed on the same day (April 5 1904) with two different destinations. Also he wants to emphasize the importance of the mail trans-shipping, apparently. It was a baton relay. The Isis could not have left on the 18th if the Oceana had not arrived. 

Love=Law

Lutz


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @belmurru

Something doesn't add up.

I have checked P&O again, and only one ship was ever called "Osiris" (although it was renamed "Osiris II" in 1911). 

But there seem to be more Osiri. Two in the Mediterrenean, and a third Osiris went to Sth America, Chili and islands. Here are some more of Colin's files:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/24le0dzsss26z44/Osiris%20%2805-04-21%29.zip?dl=0

There is even a page where both Osiri are listed on the same day (April 5 1904) with two different destinations. Also he wants to emphasize the importance of the mail trans-shipping, apparently. It was a baton relay. The Isis could not have left on the 18th if the Oceana had not arrived. 

Love=Law

Lutz

Wow, thanks! And thank Colin for sharing all the Lloyd's etc. for references to Osiris

I suppose those other two Osiri are not P&O ships. Not that it matters, it can only be the one that did the regular Brindisi-Port Said run, since we're controlling by Besant's itinerary, and Crowley expected her to know which ship he was talking about, 21 years later. 

I did expect that Oceana had to have met Isis for the mail, and at least one passenger to transfer, Annie Besant. This is why I'm back to the old theory, that AC just mixed up the names of the essentially identical ships. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva

and hard-core researchers are seeking to expose "the truth" of the discrepancies.

 

I'm titillated by the "hard-core" moniker. I could be even harder, but I'd need exponentially more resources, of the kind known as "currency," both liquid (money), and moral (influence). 

I suspect we've gotten to the bottom of this particular problem, though - Crowley's mistaken memory of the ship's name. I'll disagree with Colin and suppose that he also exaggerated the time between the reception of the book and his departure from Egypt. It was only nine days. Into a second week, but not close to a fortnight, literally. 


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threefold31
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Also he wants to emphasize the importance of the mail trans-shipping, apparently. It was a baton relay. The Isis could not have left on the 18th if the Oceana had not arrived. 

Love=Law

Lutz

Dwtw

Thanks Lutz. I figured it was something like that. It makes sense that P&O would have waited for the mail, especially knowing that the Osiris would not be doing its normal Brindisi run, but heading to Sicily. Missing the Isis would have meant delaying the Italian mail for a week or so. And since waiting for the Osiris seems much too tight for Besant to get to Rome in a timely manner, it puts us back to the original theory that they took the Isis, only this time with some more evidence to back it up. Plus the fact that there was never a mention of Besant spending a day or two in Egypt. You would think if she was stuck in Port Said for awhile, she would have gone to check out the pyramids or something.

One might argue that this departure on April 18 would then support AC's reception of AL on April 1 or 2, ending by April 4 and thus a 'fortnight' later. But since he seems to have not remembered the name of the ship correctly, we also need not hold him to the two week interim either. So I don't think it bears a lot of weight when determining if the reception was on April 8-9-10 or not. 

Litlluw

RLG


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

I predict that more lunatics shall soon arise, and bring fresh Spring Bird fever from the skies.

I second that prediction. I predict we'll still get (at least) a near freeze before Winter bails out completely.

Posted by: @belmurru

I'm titillated by the "hard-core" moniker.

Well, look, I suppose I could do the same thing using a search engine ... but I continue to be amazed by your (plural - y'all) abilities to dredge up century-old data.

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @belmurru

I'm on the verge of breaking down and giving the extortionists their money for the privilege of searching in these ancient public domain documents. 

Go for it.

When i made a similar decision to break down, and pay to access some ancient LA Times archival stories about the Solar Lodge "Boy In The Box" case, one result was that Frater Shiva started to post here regularly to point out my many mistakes and misunderstandings.

You may well unleash similar forces, or of course may conversely unleash lunatic Spring Bird posters. Or both. Or (sadly) neither, in these Facebook-not-forums days.

Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. [Ecclesiastes 11:1-2]

Colin Macleod's generosity, relayed by Lutz, has saved me or us some pennies in this regard. I guess we unleashed that. We already knew what Isis was doing, and Annie Besant was in a hurry to get to Italy, so the Osiris is effectively out of the picture now, but at least we have a complete picture of what that ship was doing. 

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva

 

Posted by: @belmurru

I'm titillated by the "hard-core" moniker.

Well, look, I suppose I could do the same thing using a search engine ... but I continue to be amazed by your (plural - y'all) abilities to dredge up century-old data.

 

There are still some possible avenues where the Almighty Google might help, but getting to the bottom of anything typically means writing to private individuals or archivists, after doing your Google homework to find out where some information might be. And you really have to love what you're doing, for its own sake, because it doesn't matter for why most people care about Crowley and Thelema and the Path in general.

But for more nitty-gritty, if we really wanted to exhaust every possibility given what we know now, you'll notice that Colin's "Homeward Bound" on page 4 gives a clipping from the Times of India for 9 April, which lists all of the passengers departing Bombay aboard the Peninsular, including Besant, along with the skipper, Captain Cubitt. Maybe one or more them in addition to Annie Besant transhipped (a new word for me) at Aden to the Oceana, and at Port Said for Brindisi. 

Most of those names are Anglo-Saxon, and several are military, the kind that leave paper trails. In any case, someone else may have transhipped to Isis at Port Said, and, if that can be established, then that person may have left a written record of the journey. We'd be in luck if it were published, but if not, maybe there are "so and so's papers" somewhere, which an archivist or family member might be willing to help with. It's a long shot, since apparently Isis and Osiris were not comfortable ships, the whole point being speed. Not a lot of occasion for long hours in the lounge or on deck, getting to know another passenger. But if you're sweeping the floor for every last crumb and mote of dust, there are leads to follow.

And all we are looking for is someone who puts Besant and Crowley on the ship at the same time, in the same way that Arnold Bennett puts Crowley in Paris at lunch on 26 April, and Andrew Dickson White puts Besant in Rome at 6 p.m. on 22 April. 

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

 

One might argue that this departure on April 18 would then support AC's reception of AL on April 1 or 2, ending by April 4 and thus a 'fortnight' later. But since he seems to have not remembered the name of the ship correctly, we also need not hold him to the two week interim either. So I don't think it bears a lot of weight when determining if the reception was on April 8-9-10 or not. 

Litlluw

RLG

Yes, it only matters which forgetfulness you choose to believe. For me, the earlier - Temple of Solomon the King - "7th of April" carries more weight than the "first of April" in 1936's Equinox of the Gods

We are left with explaining THAT change, which went through multiple proofreads, as Colin Macleod points out. I think I settled on the conclusion, during the last go round of this issue here, that "7th" must have been handwritten for the typist to interpret, and that it was badly enough written to be interpreted as "1st," which the typist then decided to spell out as "first." This then went to the typesetter. Why neither Crowley nor anybody else who laid eyes on it, noticed it, we can only speculate.  But he never changed his view of the dates when the Book of the Law was written. 

But another tack taken by Perdurabo ST has got me thinking outside the box on an interpretation of AL III:71, related to the recent eruption of the Russo-Japanese war. I'm not sure if this is the best thread to get into it, though. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @belmurru

But if you're sweeping the floor for every last crumb and mote of dust, there are leads to follow.

Forensic Thelema? Forensic Theosophy?

Esoteric Forencisism!


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @belmurru

But if you're sweeping the floor for every last crumb and mote of dust, there are leads to follow.

Forensic Thelema? Forensic Theosophy?

Esoteric Forencisism!

I guess it's forensic if one presents the evidence in the form of an argument. I am doing that about the Isis versus Osiris, in order to weigh the possible against the probable, at the level of "preponderance of evidence" in, for instance, a civil trial. 

But otherwise it's just normal documentary historical research. Quite often the facts speak for themselves, no argument needs to be made. The problem with believers of one sort or another is that, unless the evidence does indeed speak for itself, they demand "incontrovertible proof," far beyond even "reasonable doubt." If that is not forthcoming, they believe that their highly improbable scenario is no less plausible than what the preponderance of evidence shows to a dispassionate observer. 

I have my opinions and points of view, but they're nothing special. I go where the evidence leads me, and I'm happy to change my mind. In this case, which ship did Crowley take, after reading Perdurabo ST I was happy to learn a lot of new facts and to imagine it was the Osiris. Playing out the scenarios, even in the absence of evidence, began to weigh the theory down. Finally, the improbability of Oceana with her mail missing Isis just sitting there, moved me decisively back to the original scenario of a few years ago - Crowley mixed up the names. As I wrote above "It just doesn't seem likely that two P&O ships would have missed each other by a matter of a few hours. Plausibility rests with Oceana and Isis having connected. The mail from Australia and India had to get to the Brits in Italy, and it could not be done so easily with Oceana steaming on straight to Marseille."

Subsequently, Lutz reported Colin Macleod arguing the same thing. The absence of incontrovertible evidence of their meeting does not override the preponderance of evidence that they must have. I fully expect that we can find the proof, if we need it. 


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hadgigegenraum
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@the_real_simon_iff  and @belmurru

Thanks for the links concerning the respective and most respectable works of Colin MacLeod and PerduraboST !!!

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @ignant666

I predict that more lunatics shall soon arise, and bring fresh Spring Bird fever from the skies.

I second that prediction. I predict we'll still get (at least) a near freeze before Winter bails out completely.

Don't worry, it will surely grow colder again, back into Spring Madness, for our entertainment.

Two out of three of your prognostications were fulfilled sooner and more accurately than I could have imagined. 

Not only did we (in France, including the Mediterranean coast) get a bout of freezing temperatures two nights ago that destroyed up to 80% (in some places) of the young shoots on the vines, but this thread froze too, stopped dead in its tracks. Maybe everything that can be said, so far, has been? Or maybe those so inclined are poring over the details in the new documents and their arguments, which takes time.

On the other hand, the Spring Bird Fever hasn't shown up again yet. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @belmurru

On the other hand, the Spring Bird Fever hasn't shown up again yet.

These are unusual times. This thread was ewsurrected by RTC in order to provide or at least assess pre-marketing banter. That counts as "Spring Birdness," but hardly matches the usual flocks that migrate here.

It was not this thread that stopped. This thread was the only thing ticking for quite a while, mostly you and Iff. For days now, the entire LAShTAL thread mechanism has faltered. One or two posts every 24 hours.

I may even start a thread, if only I could determine a content worthy of attracting research or fisticuffs.


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @belmurru

On the other hand, the Spring Bird Fever hasn't shown up again yet.

These are unusual times. This thread was ewsurrected by RTC in order to provide or at least assess pre-marketing banter. That counts as "Spring Birdness," but hardly matches the usual flocks that migrate here.

It was not this thread that stopped. This thread was the only thing ticking for quite a while, mostly you and Iff. For days now, the entire LAShTAL thread mechanism has faltered. One or two posts every 24 hours.

I may even start a thread, if only I could determine a content worthy of attracting research or fisticuffs.

The prophylactic measures are taking a toll. We're all worn down, more or less listless, I guess. Even Googlhulthlu has its limits. Maybe video gaming/chat/virtual life is something, but I don't do that. 

The new document by Perdurabo ST suggested a speculative avenue for interpreting The Book of the Law III:71 that I hadn't considered properly before. I mentioned it to the few reading here a few days ago, but nobody bit, so I decided not to post on it. Nothing deep, just the usual historical drivel, but if there's nothing else, I might as well throw up a new topic.

But another tack taken by Perdurabo ST has got me thinking outside the box on an interpretation of AL III:71, related to the recent eruption of the Russo-Japanese war. I'm not sure if this is the best thread to get into it, though.


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the_real_simon_iff
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Was AC again careless with his dates? We all know about June 28, 1909, when he said (in the Confessions) he found the manuscript of Liber L while looking for a pair of skis for Kenneth Ward. Now I see this entry in "The Record of Omnia Vincam", Victor Neuburg's notes of his Magical Retirement at Boleskine from June 18 to June 27:

"June 20.

It is now 10.4 a.m.

I went to the Chamber last night after dinner and meditated: then I resolved to sleep for an hour. My Guru entered suddenly, and reproached me bitterly with lack of concentration. He also brought me news concerning a certain manuscript, with regard to which I have been inexcusably careless."

A certain manuscript? Is it possible that he is talking about that certain manuscript? Neuburg arrived on the 18th together with Ward. It would at least be a good time to search for a pair of skis.

Just another discrepancy to ponder...

Love=Law

Lutz


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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Is it possible that he is talking about that certain manuscript?

Yes, this is a distinct possibility.

 


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RTC
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@the_real_simon_iff - Nah!


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @therealrtc

@the_real_simon_iff - Nah!

It's settled then, thank you very much.

Love=Law

Lutz

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Was AC again careless with his dates? We all know about June 28, 1909, when he said (in the Confessions) he found the manuscript of Liber L while looking for a pair of skis for Kenneth Ward. Now I see this entry in "The Record of Omnia Vincam", Victor Neuburg's notes of his Magical Retirement at Boleskine from June 18 to June 27:

"June 20.

It is now 10.4 a.m.

I went to the Chamber last night after dinner and meditated: then I resolved to sleep for an hour. My Guru entered suddenly, and reproached me bitterly with lack of concentration. He also brought me news concerning a certain manuscript, with regard to which I have been inexcusably careless."

A certain manuscript? Is it possible that he is talking about that certain manuscript? Neuburg arrived on the 18th together with Ward. It would at least be a good time to search for a pair of skis.

Just another discrepancy to ponder...

Love=Law

Lutz

The syntax, or the form of the quote, doesn't help. If "I" refers to Neuburg himself, what would he have had to do with the manuscript of Liber L to begin with, that he could have been careless about it? 

On the other hand, Neuburg might have been quoting Crowley, the statement reading "He also brought me news concerning a certain manuscript, 'with to regard to which I have been inexcusably careless.'" I'd raise an eyebrow if that were the case. 

But in the form as it is given, I'd have to guess it wasn't Liber L. There were no doubt other manuscripts about with which Neuburg might have had reason to be concerned.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @belmurru

On the other hand, Neuburg might have been quoting Crowley

Upon reading the quote, this was my first impression. In this case, the question is, Do first impressions count? You know, it's kind of subjective.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Anonymous (@Anonymous) [Original Post]:

" ... RT Cole [...] says Crowley fabricated the events surrounding the reception of Liber AL to secure his position as 'Prophet of the New Aeon'.

[...] Did he [ = Crowley ] successfully cross the Abyss and truly control that most insidious entity - the Ego?

Any opinions/insights? "

 

It is obvious that AC intended to "found a new world religion" with his Thelema, as he already in 1905 -  shortly after writing his Thelema's most holy book, which he dates to 1904 - asked for help to "... found a new world religion.", and was predicting that "... in a hundred years, the world will be sitting in the dawn of a New Aeon."  It is also obvious that AC has utterly failed in founding "a new world religion" with his Thelema.  

AC did already in 1902 in his Berashit An essay on ontology with some remarks on ceremonial magic, mention the "Qabalistic religion", and there repeatedly and positively refers to "Qabalah". And it would have been all the better for his Thelema, if he with no mention of anything involving Ancient Egypt, had just come clean, and openly had stated that his Thelema was a creation based on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, in which the three chapters of the most holy threefold book, represents respectively Binah, Chokhmah, and Keter.

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @belmurru

On the other hand, Neuburg might have been quoting Crowley

Upon reading the quote, this was my first impression. In this case, the question is, Do first impressions count? You know, it's kind of subjective.

 

The only next step I can think of is to see the diary manuscript, if that is possible. It may or may not give some insight. 

But AC wasn't going by memory for this account, he was quoting his own diary in TSK (Equinox 1(10), pp. 98-99, and the Confessions (pp. 595-598). He must have had it in front of him, and the date of 1 July is scientifically verifiable: "... on departing, instantly shone the moon, two days before her fullness, over the hill among the clouds."

Full Moon was indeed on 3 July, or two days later (about 40 hours actually). 

So my bias would be towards the accuracy of Crowley's account, given that it comes from the pages of a diary in front of him, rather than towards doubt about it because of the interpretation of the unclear meaning of a phrase in Neuburg's diary.

 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @belmurru

Full Moon was indeed on 3 July, or two days later (about 40 hours actually). 

That's a very good point!

The manuscript also supports it:

grafik

Love=Law

Lutz


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @belmurru

Full Moon was indeed on 3 July, or two days later (about 40 hours actually). 

That's a very good point!

The manuscript also supports it:

grafik

Love=Law

Lutz

Thank you very much for supplying that entry, Lutz! From that, I'd say that "I" refers to Victor Neuburg himself. It doesn't help us identifying the manuscript in question, though. I think the word "news" is what makes it a tease. This was during his initiation to Neophyte, so maybe it was in regard to making his own copies or studies of Libers LXI and LXV, or Pyramidos. Crowley also says earlier on that he was gathering materials for an exposition of Dee and Kelly's workings, for which he would later go to the Bodleian to study the originals. Maybe it was something to do with that subject. 

But the fact that Crowley was literally citing his diary, with its dates, means that we have to accept the date of 28 June. The diary still exists, if we are to trust Churton, who cites it in AC The Biography p. 147. He gives the entry for 28 June 1909, endnoting it to “HB,” which means “unpublished typescripts edited by Hymenaeus Beta.” Therefore a typescript of the diary exists.

I should correct my timing for the 1 July entry. I had taken it as just past midnight on 2 July, with full moon occurring around noon on 3 July. But it really should be just past midnight on 1 July, since the unnamed tenant coming to rent Boleskine was scheduled to arrive that day, and Crowley and Neuburg went back to London on the same day. 

 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

"He also brought me news concerning a certain manuscript, with regard to which I have been inexcusably careless."

If the manuscript referred to is Liber L, then Vicky-Bird may have been the one responsible for losing it, having possibly placed it among items stored in the loft without realizing what it was.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @belmurru

Full Moon was indeed on 3 July, or two days later (about 40 hours actually). 

That's a very good point!

The manuscript also supports it:

grafik

Love=Law

Lutz

Thanks for this! 

What strikes me is that the page number in the upper left reminds me of page numbers in Liber L vel Legis....


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can you possibly... be referring here to the fact that ... Crowley fortunately managed to intercede to prevent?

Posted by: @shiva

No. But I always thought it was a third party (not Crowley) who intervened.

Having a moment free I decided to check up on this incident which is recorded in Chapter 27 of the Confessions and according to which it seems it was actually a third party/person, and not Crowley himself:

Whether overawed by the majesty of the saint or interrupted by the entry of a third person, I.A. [Bennett] no longer remembered, but D.D.C.F. [Mathers] never pulled the trigger.

In connection with the foregoing to the passage above, possibly the third person who interrupted may perhaps have been V.N.R. [Mrs Mathers] by so doing "thus formulating the symbol of the Blessed Trinity"??

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

may perhaps have been V.N.R. [Mrs Mathers] by so doing "thus formulating the symbol of the Blessed Trinity"??

Yes, that's the way I remember it. Weird explanations of the duality being interrupted by the trinity (a third person), who I recall was female.

 


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Shiva
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Here's the biggest, most obvious discrepancy. Two Orders existed pre-Perdurabo. But Perdurabo took them both over. Are they two complete opposites, or what?

A.'.A.'.                  O.T.O.

       Free            Fees and Dues  

Vertical                 Horizontal 

Solo                    Group    

No Oaths of Obedience    Many Oaths of Obedience

Mystery is the Enemy of Truth     Secrecy with horrible Penalties    

Work demanded - Do the Libers       Attendance - No Work required        

We know that one is the Spiritual Express via Hard Work, and the other is the mundane version dedicated to worldly affairs (both sporting Thelemic banners ... but we were taught to study diverse systems with the idea of discovering what they have in common, in order to reveal the true path. One can feel cheery about discarding the disagreements.

So what to they have in common?

Thelema
10 degrees (plus a 0*
Crowley-designed rituals

What else?


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hadgigegenraum
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@shiva

Thanks for pointing out the big discrepancies..... between Orders or disorders...

Thus good question!

A.'.A.'.....I thought that AC made that up?

 

 


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christibrany
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@shiva

Thanks for pointing out the big discrepancies..... between Orders or disorders...

Thus good question!

A.'.A.'.....I thought that AC made that up?

 

 

He did. You gotta problem w'that? 🙂

Him along with George Cecil Jones.  He also deserves credit as co-founder. 


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hadgigegenraum
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@christibrany

"He did. You gotta problem w'that? 🙂"

No...maybe Shiva does!


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

A.'.A.'.....I thought that AC made that up?

"The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Latin: Ordo Hermeticus Aurorae Aureae; or more commonly, the Golden Dawn (Aurora Aurea) was a secret society devoted to the study and practice of the occult, metaphysics, and paranormal activities during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Known as a magical order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was active in Great Britain and focused its practices on theurgy and spiritual development. Many present-day concepts of ritual and magic that are at the centre of contemporary traditions, such as Wicca and Thelema, were inspired by the Golden Dawn, which became one of the largest single influences on 20th-century Western occultism." -Wikipedia

I thought the same for decades. But then somebody here on LAShTAL said they believed A.'.A.'. was grabbed by AC from the G.D.  So, sure enough, when I ran across the term I copied it for future use. This is it's third "future use" in these forums.

Posted by: @christibrany

He did. You gotta problem w'that? 🙂

Him along with George Cecil Jones.  He also deserves credit as co-founder.

No he/they didn't.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

No...maybe Shiva does!

There's no "problem." They stole/borrowed/inherited the letters A.'.A.'. (a supernal order that had no members in corporeal status).


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wellreadwellbred
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"Despite, his undeniable contributions to magical practice, Crowley's main intention was to found a new world religion; he admitted this himself a number of times, and this intention was also reflected in the 1928 Weida Conference where he attempted to have himself pro­ claimed "World Savior"[sic], by the German Pansophic Movement, which in the end led to the disintegration of this magic crème de la crème [ = "the best person[-s] or thing[-s] of a particular kind" ] of German occultism and, among other things, also led to the founding of the Fraternitas Saturni. Even the subtitle of his magazine, The Equinox, clearly reflected this, namely "The Method of Science the Aim of Religion.""

(Source: Page 323 and 324, in High Magic: Theory & Practice © 2005 by Frater U.'.D.'., First Edition Fourth Printing, 2008.)

 

A major discrepancy of Aleister Crowley, is him founding his Thelema centers around a most holy core book of his Thelema, supposedly written in 1904, while almost simultaneously in 1905, explicitly stating that he intended to "... found a new world religion.", and at the same time predicting that "... in a hundred years, the world will be sitting in the dawn of a New Aeon."

(Source: Page 134, in the Revised and Expanded Edition 2010, of Richard Kaczynski's Perdurabo: The Life of Aleister Crowley.)   

This major discrepancy of Aleister Crowley, is now over a century after he wrote said most holy core book of his Thelema, and after he uttered said boastful statement, and uttered said boastful prediction, completely obvious. As the numbers of Thelemites as defined by Aleister Crowley, understood as numbers of persons who accept Crowley's 'the Law of Thelema' (or his 'The Book of the Law') (source: Thelema From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema ), are too insignificant to be registered by current standard methods for measuring religious identity.   

 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

As the numbers of Thelemites as defined by Aleister Crowley, understood as numbers of persons who accept Crowley's 'the Law of Thelema' (or his 'The Book of the Law') (source: Thelema From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - ), are too insignificant to be registered by current standard methods for measuring religious identity.

In terms of the total projected span of the Aeon, who cares if self-identified “Thelemites” number under 50 across the globe? This is no critique of the basic idea. It could well be that these 50 some cultists blossom into millions by 2100 (Aeon is still in Grade School). But what would this speculative "millions" imply? Is there not the statement “Ye are against the people” and belong to the “few and secret.” For the Zeitgeist is one of cant. A Secret Tradition ran through the last 2000 years of bullshit and accomplishment. Does it not continue into the Aeon of the Hawk Headed God?

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

in a hundred years, the world will be sitting in the dawn of a New Aeon.

Well, here we are. The Aeonic Sun has risen (ten years ago if the calendar is holding water). This is it? This is the New Aeon?

Nah!  We're only about (but slightly less than) half way through the transition period. I guess the midway point (circa 2030) could be considered the "Dawn," since the new aeon energies tip the scale at that point, just like the first ray from the Sun at sunrise.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

[Thelemites] ... are too insignificant to be registered by current standard methods for measuring religious identity.   

Really? "Standard methods" implies the outcome is already stacked in favor of the popular religions, because they are simply counting numbers/members. They do not account for "the infinite factor," or " the critical mass" (minimum core size required), or the 8th circuit of delight.

Now, if we want to be honest (and how could we wish otherwise?), we need to count all the individuals in the world who have recently (since 1904) said, "No, thank you," to any and all religions, and decided instead to become self-reliant; they may study some or all of these religions, but they do not participate - at least not to the point of submission.

With the new aeon being composed of, or established for the benefit of, the individual, we will note an accompanying increase in that phenomenon known as anarchy. There's "less government" that way, you know.

So that's my proposal. Count the Sheep (who are registered with some accredited religion) and compare them to the solo operators. In anarchical conditions, it wouldn't be fair to ask for a soloist to declare him/her self a Crowley Thelemite ... not when they're busy finding or doing their Will with or without ever reading Liber AL.

If that kind our (ac)counting doesn't work out because it's too simple, there is a further method wherein the grade level (the 3 grades) is assessed, of both sheep and anarchists, with various sliding scale configurations and Qabalistic notions put to work ... but I prefer the simple count based on reality.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

This is no critique of the basic idea.

That's what I just implied, but in longer sentences and many more paragraphs.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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New Aeon....perhaps Yeats poem speaks to it being Cromwell's

The Curse Of Cromwell by William Butler Yeats
 
You ask what - I have found, and far and wide I go:
Nothing but Cromwell's house and Cromwell's murderous crew,
The lovers and the dancers are beaten into the clay,
And the tall men and the swordsmen and the horsemen, where are they?
And there is an old beggar wandering in his pride - -
His fathers served their fathers before Christ was crucified.
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

All neighbourly content and easy talk are gone,
But there's no good complaining, for money's rant is on.
He that's mounting up must on his neighbour mount,
And we and all the Muses are things of no account.
They have schooling of their own, but I pass their schooling by,
What can they know that we know that know the time to die?
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

But there's another knowledge that my heart destroys,
As the fox in the old fable destroyed the Spartan boy's
Because it proves that things both can and cannot be;
That the swordsmen and the ladies can still keep company,
Can pay the poet for a verse and hear the fiddle sound,
That I am still their setvant though all are underground.
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

I came on a great house in the middle of the night,
Its open lighted doorway and its windows all alight,
And all my friends were there and made me welcome too;
But I woke in an old ruin that the winds howled through;
And when I pay attention I must out and walk
Among the dogs and horses that understand my talk.
O what of that, O what of that,
What is there left to say?

 

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herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

We know that one is the Spiritual Express via Hard Work, and the other is the mundane version dedicated to worldly affairs (both sporting Thelemic banners ... but we were taught to study diverse systems with the idea of discovering what they have in common, in order to reveal the true path. One can feel cheery about discarding the disagreements.

So what to they have in common?

Both are predicated on the belief there is truth in comparative religious ideologies, and neither have anything to do with the content of the Book of the Law.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Both are predicated on the belief there is truth in comparative religious ideologies

Yes, both require exposure to different "religions," and the A.'.A.'. requires "a study in diverse systems of attainment" ((Student level ), while the OTO doesn't require much (any?) reading, yet it exposes the candidate to assorted systems through the various degrees.

So I guess your comparative religious ideologies goal is true enough, but it is an idealistic pursuit. The A.'.A.'. merely introduces a few books (that should be read in one month - or is it 3 months?),  but it hardly begins the journey into any form of widespread study. The OTO doesn't care what anyone reads, as long as they pay their fees and dues in advance.

Posted by: @herupakraath

and neither have anything to do with the content of the Book of the Law.

Well, sure they do. The A.'.A.'. requires a Chapter of AL to be memorized and recited if one wants to gain the 1=10 designation, while the OTO requires one to read (aloud) a Chapter from AL in the Minerval ceremony.

However, anyone could proceed through both the A.'.A.'. and the OTO curricula without ever reading, seeing, or knowing about AL, which is merely inserted as an artificial "sacred or holy doc. I agree that you are correct in pointing out that neither is completely dependent upon any VSL (Volume of the Sacred Law).


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Well, here we are. The Aeonic Sun has risen (ten years ago if the calendar is holding water). This is it? This is the New Aeon?

Nah!  We're only about (but slightly less than) half way through the transition period. I guess the midway point (circa 2030) could be considered the "Dawn," since the new aeon energies tip the scale at that point, just like the first ray from the Sun at sunrise

The 20th century actually did mark the beginning of a new aeon, and in a way that can be measured although the exact starting point is debatable, the mid 20th century did put the "nail in Christian Rosencruez coffin" so to speak.

This is called the Age of Anthropocene or the Age of Man

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/age-man-enter-anthropocene/

Its core feature is the age where humanity become the irreversible custodians of earth, and the earth is now permanently altered from our presence. We know this because we woke up one day and discovered we are destroying the planet, a very Ra Hoor Khuit thing to do and now we have to do something or...the outcome is rather bleak.

"Oh shit, what do we do?" <<< We are here

Seems like a perfect "dawn of a new irreversible history" to me.

A time of "tearing down of the old" is not possible unless, along side of it, is the "emerging of the new".

 

               

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @herupakraath

and neither have anything to do with the content of the Book of the Law.

I'm not sure if I misunderstand you here. 

The content of the book of the law, as a "holy book", is extraordinary in the sense that it introduces some form of a "global" tantric exercise where world religions are properly represented.

For example:

Nuit orders the deity in their proper place

Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

And Ra hoor Khuit collects all of their energy, becomes the totality of all systems not just one system or another system.

 

The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x. What is this? Thou shalt know.

My interpretation has always been that these psychological energies require the study of all systems of religion, psychology, magick, shaman, etc because this is the era of the absorption of all of them which simultaneously erases all of them.

EDIT: Specifically, that all myths and gods and systems can be used as tantras, i.e. "deity yoga" not just the system one was born into, and NOT JUST THE ONES Crowley made up either, hehe.

With my Hawk’s head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

Did I misunderstand?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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wellreadwellbred
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kidneyhawk: "In terms of the total projected span of the Aeon, who cares if self-identified “Thelemites” number under 50 across the globe? This is no critique of the basic idea. It could well be that these 50 some cultists blossom into millions by 2100 (Aeon is still in Grade School). But what would this speculative "millions" imply?"

If in an overall population sense the term "Thelemite" refers to adherents of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley, in an all-inclusive way, the deeply committed or observant probably will be significantly less. Perhaps at most no more than 10% of the total can be expected to be actually practicing this Thelema. But only a 10% of the total of speculative "millions" of "Thelemites" ( as described by Aleister Crowley as the prophet of his "Thelema", in its two most important books according to him, The Book of the Law, and The Vision and the Voice ) would imply the presence of large numbers Thelemites to implement 'the new aeon' of his "Thelemites", and of the Thelema associated with him.

Speculating about such projections, has some probative value in considering Aleister Crowley's visions of the Thelema associated with him, overtaking and eventually overwhelming what that according to it, are expired creeds.

Your claim that a group of 50 self-identified “Thelemites”, at present time in 2021, "could well" in 79 years, "blossom into millions by 2100", is overtly optimistic, as it suggests a growth rate much higher than the high 43 per cent per decade growth rate of the Mormon Church in more recent years. The latter high growth rate compares favourably with the calculations of the sociologist Rodney Stark (Rodney Stark, 1996, The rise of Christianity: A sociologist reconsiders history. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press (pages 5-7).) and Hopkins (Keith Hopkins, 1998, Christian number and its implications. Journal of Early Christian Studies [Volume] 6, 185-226), of how small the Christian movement was in the first century of CE (Common Era) :

"Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century. He then argues, on the assumption of 1 000 Christians in the year 40 that this figure could have been reached through a natural and consistent growth of 40 per cent per decade. What makes this a feasible rate of growth is that it compares very favourably with the expansion of the Mormon Church in more recent times, which has grown at a rate of 43 per cent per decade. This method of calculating total Christian numbers in the first century renders the following approximate results. There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1 400 Christians in 50, 1 960 Christians in 60, 2 744 Christians in 70, 3 842 Christians in 80, 5 378 Christians in 90 and 7 530 Christians at the end of the first century."

(Source: How many Jews became Christians in the first century? The failure of the Christian mission to the Jews[,] David C Sim[,] Australian Catholic University Australia[.] - - - https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/13403/Sim_How(2005).pdf?sequence=3 )

 

Shiva: "... that's my proposal. Count the Sheep (who are registered with some accredited religion) and compare them to the solo operators. [...] If that [...] (ac)counting doesn't work out because it's too simple, there is a further method wherein the grade level (the 3 grades) is assessed, of both sheep and anarchists, with various sliding scale configurations and Qabalistic notions put to work ... but I prefer the simple count based on reality."

LOL (= Laughing Out Loud)!; "... I prefer the simple count based on reality."

At present time, it appears to be the reality (defined as (the) reality liable to falsification or reasoning), that there are millions upon millions of mere adherents around to implement 'the new pact' or 'the new covenant' of Christians.

And at present time, it appears to be the reality (as defined above), that the numbers of Thelemites as defined by Aleister Crowley ( understood as numbers of persons who accept Crowley's 'the Law of Thelema', or his 'The Book of the Law' (source: Thelema From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema) ), are too insignificant to be registered by current standard methods for measuring religious identity.

*** Is it your belief that 'the new aeon' of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley, will, in some supernatural way, implement itself irrespective of any human efforts???

Within Aleister Crowley's most important book for his Thelema, The Book of thew Law, its core maxim; "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law”, is directly preceded by the statement that "Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth (I:40)."

And within Aleister Crowley's ( according to chapter 66 i his book The Confessions of Aleister Crowley : An Autohagiography ) second most important book for the Thelema associated with him, The Vision and the Voice, this is further explained when it is said by an angel (a messenger from the Secret Chiefs): "The man of earth is the adherent. The lover giveth his life unto the work among men. The hermit goeth solitary, and giveth only of his light unto men (The Cry of the 13th Aethyr)."

"the Law is for all.", according to A.C.'s The Book of the Law, and the latter book's description of "the man of Earth" as one of the "Three Grades" of "Thelemites", refers to adherents of Aleister Crowley's Thelema (and/or his The Book of the Law, and/or his "the Law of Thelema"). Those facts implies that some of those called "Thelemites" in A.C.'s The Book of the Law, are going to be (mere) adherents (whose Will might not be to give "life unto the work among men" like those Thelemites of the Grade called "the Lover", or to give of their "light unto men", like those Thelemites of the Grade called "the Hermit").

A form of superiority complex, is a risk for those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain", a superiority complex that will repel those whose Will it is to be mere adherents of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4193
 
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

A form of superiority complex, is a risk for those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain", a superiority complex that will repel those whose Will it is to be mere adherents of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley.

Who is it who insists that all Thelemites must "attain"? I've never come across anyone who states that.  Since a Thelemite is one who accepts the Law of Thelema, such an assertion would be groundless in any event.


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