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Crowley and his discrepancies

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ignant666
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Posted by: @michael-staley

Who is it who insists that all Thelemites must "attain"? I've never come across anyone who states that.

This is one of the many straw men that inhabits WRWB's thought-box.

He is engaged in some sort of extended argument with imaginary people, and is not really interested in dialogue or discussion with anyone else who posts here.


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Tiger
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Aeon of Osiris Sheep will always flock to belief systems with promises of what happens after life.
The day they go to face and meet their maker and think of the times they partook in the arousal of the carnal pleasures;
the priestcraft with their civil, money, politics and self serving concerns for their craft and constructs can be called in;
and the sheep can hand over responsibility.
Or Deny their experiments in experience in life, confining sentient awareness to conform to a doctrine of sin.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Did I misunderstand?

"Everything you know is wrong!"
- Robert Anton Wilson
[live, in-person, c. 1988]

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Speculating about such projections, has some probative value in considering Aleister Crowley's visions of the Thelema associated with him, overtaking and eventually overwhelming what that according to it, are expired creeds.

We have one, big, glaring problem, regarding discrepancies, that lies at the root of discrepancism, AC, and Thelema ...

Thelema is a philosophy dedicated to the individual.

All Thelemic organizational documents
(such as the OTO Constitution & Rites; One Star in Sight)
specifically define Aleister Crowley
(as Baphomet, Therion, et al)
as being in charge of all individuals, everywhere,
without recourse to any higher authority.

I believe the term is absolute dictatorship.

The first degree rite in the Saladin tent attempts to justify its Oath of Absolute Obedience (and Secrecy) with horrible, surgical, penalties  (loss of limbs, metallic insertions, mutilation, and other forms of plastic/military surgery).

The idea is that one's tent will not stand upright unless it has a sturdy center-pole. The name of that pole was Baphomet (BafometR), but now it's the local King, X*, with all Kings being subject to life or death according to the wishes of the O.H.O., who runs the world.

A similar scenario may be described for portraying the Supreme Will of To Mega Therion.

Excuses have been issued, stating that one must obey the Will of The Beast and his Scarlet Woman, "as officers of the aeon, not as individuals."

Could we please have a rule book that helps us distinguish between To Mega Therion and the imp/demen Crowley?

My point is ... There is a lot of discrepancy between free will and obeying one's "superior."

Anyone is invited to explain or otherwise resolve this paradox.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

A form of superiority complex, is a risk for those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain", a superiority complex that will repel those whose Will it is to be mere adherents of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley.

Yes, and another downside of a successful superiority complex is knon as bondage or slavery.

Posted by: @michael-staley

Who is it who insists that all Thelemites must "attain" ?

Well, I insist that all of them must at least try to attain (primordial consciousness). Otherwise they may "accept" the Law, but what use are they?

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

"Everything you know is wrong!"
- Robert Anton Wilson

everything is false, and everything is permitted, hehe.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

but what use are they?

Stores of women and spices need attendance, the slaves shall serve 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @shiva

"Everything you know is wrong!"
- Robert Anton Wilson
[live, in-person, c. 1988]

He was quoting the title of a 1974 Firesign Theatre album; they were a California acid-comedy group. This particular album is very much a parody of "New Age" "space-brother" ideas, and especially focuses on mocking the then-recent Comet Kohoutek brouhaha.

Highly recommended. Firesign was like an forgotten American Monty Python- that funny, that strange, but more druggy-er.

Welcome, seekers, and there's a seeker born every minute.

Men never lived on earth! Dogs flew space ships! The Aztecs invented the vacation! Men and women are the same sex! Our forefathers took drugs!

Your brain is not the boss! Everything you know is wrong!

image

https://youtu.be/YKZtt2yEwfs


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Shiva
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Posted by: @ignant666

He was quoting the title of a 1974 Firesign Theatre album

I knew it was not original with him (RAW), but I could not remember where it first appeared.

However, one would have to go a long way to top his version; The lecture room was fillws, all seats taken, people standing around the walls, almost all men (masculine gender).

After greeting the mob from the podium, RAW was interrupted by a person (male voice) cloaked in a hooded robe who entered the back door. This person proceeded slowly to move into different sections of the audience, where he would make the sign of the cross (not a pentagram) in the air and announce to this subgroup, "Everything you know is wrong!" He did this about 7 times, then he departed. 

RAW continued, and he issued us all a card proclaiming us OHO of the OTO. A great time was had by all.

 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The content of the book of the law, as a "holy book", is extraordinary in the sense that it introduces some form of a "global" tantric exercise where world religions are properly represented.

That's quite a leap in logic given the only reference made to religions in the the text of Liber L is in the third chapter, where Ra-Hoor-Khuit attacks them and their adherents, and instructs the readers of the text to curse all gods of men.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

And Ra hoor Khuit collects all of their energy, becomes the totality of all systems not just one system or another system

Crowley utilizes the Egyptian trinity when it fits his theory of aeonic succession, despite a lack of textual evidence in Liber L to support it, and then interprets an actual reference to the trinity incorrectly (the verse quoted above), in an effort to support his theory of religious syncretism.

Given the overall Egyptian god theme evident in Liber L, Asar, Isa, and Hoor are a reference to the gods that form the Egyptian trinity. If Isa were the Arabic word for Jesus, as Crowley concludes, the verse makes no sense given that Osiris and Jesus were both murdered and suffered before being resurrected. In Coptic, the name for Isis is Ese, which is similar to Isa, and supports the conclusion that Isa is Isis. Asar is the father, the adorant, the male formula, while Isa is the sufferer, the child bearer, the female formula.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

My interpretation has always been that these psychological energies require the study of all systems of religion, psychology, magick, shaman, etc because this is the era of the absorption of all of them which simultaneously erases all of them.

That approach suggests the Book of the Law and its symbolism is incomplete, and requires the study of past religions in order to comprehend it, which is what the advocates of past religion want--to keep the religions of the past of alive and relevant, when they are not.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @herupakraath

That's quite a leap in logic given the only reference made to religions in the the text of Liber L is in the third chapter, where Ra-Hoor-Khuit attacks them and their adherents, and instructs the readers of the text to curse all gods of men.

oh it is 100% a leap of logic, a leap "over" logic actually. 

If I used logic, it would be the same as saying that my interpretation was irrefutable. Oye! So obnoxious that would be!

But let's use logic now, per your request.

The logic of your post appears to rest on face value interpretation of Liber AL, and specifically you therefore interpret a deity who is attacking other deities, placing Ra-Hoor-Khu in this dualistic contest between the gods of old.

And I suppose if that is the world and Thelema you want...you know, do what thou wilt, go for it.

However, we also have an option of viewing Liber Al vel Legis as written in a twilight language, not uncommon at all, in any way, with tantric literature.

and then we can note that any logic of face value interpretation is utterly defeated within the text itself, for sure, RHK does suggest cursing other gods, as well as being your best waiter in your best restaurant so he can serve up the flesh of your own personal enemies and then feed you that flesh as the meal of the day. But in another area the same voice also says "The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me"

So here we find a very logical "contradiction" in the interpretation that RHK is on a dualistic quest to curse all the gods of men.

So while I was not using logic to derive my interpretation, I am surely using logic to show you that what your suggesting is logically contradicted in the text.

As to the entirety of the book, it mentions a new "organizing principle" of deity, where the deity of the 5 major world religions actually play a part, all "cluster" to exalt the "child" at this time (humanity, we are RKH)

Interpreted in twilight language, this is also a very "tantric" thing to do, this type of unification, however the unification is usually applied to the deities within a single system. 

I am not familiar with any other religious holy text that does that, but I could be mistaken.

(That last sentence in my reply, oye, @Shiva...you're killing me. Or is it filling me? hehe.)

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Tiger
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“ a new "organizing principle" of deity, “

where the images are used by the child
but not used by a King with out clothes


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

the only reference made to religions in the the text of Liber L is in the third chapter, where Ra-Hoor-Khuit attacks them

Yeah, the bird doesn't like religions. 

Posted by: @herupakraath

Crowley utilizes the Egyptian trinity when it fits his theory of aeonic succession

But, clearly, four aeons are mentioned or implied (Hrumachis). Both Crowley and I utilize whatever number is appropriate to the (any) concept under consideration. With all numbers being infinite, anyone can build a mental universe upon any number.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

it is 100% a leap of logic, a leap "over" logic actually. 

Enter the 8th (quantum) circuit ... wherein only paradoxical appreciation can save one's sanity.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am surely using logic to show you that what your suggesting is logically contradicted in the text.

No matter where you go, there is a mirror reflecting any premise. This is what we get for entering a duality.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Me: "A form of superiority complex, is a risk for those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain", a superiority complex that will repel those whose Will it is to be mere adherents of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley."

Shiva: "Yes, and another downside of a successful superiority complex is knon as bondage or slavery."

Michael Staley: "Who is it who insists that all Thelemites must "attain"? I've never come across anyone who states that."

ignant666: "This is one of the many straw men that inhabits WRWB's thought-box.

He is engaged in some sort of extended argument with imaginary people, and is not really interested in dialogue or discussion with anyone else who posts here."

Shiva: "Well, I insist that all of them must at least try to attain (primordial consciousness). Otherwise they may "accept" the Law, but what use are they?"

 

Enjoy, Shiva! ignant666 have now made you aware of that you are in good company, as "one of the many straw men that inhabits" my "thought-box."

What do you mean with the sentence; "... another downside of a successful superiority complex is knon as bondage or slavery."? Does this "another downside" mean being in bondage and slavery of said "successful superiority complex"???


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Shiva ... you are in good company, as "one of the many straw men that inhabits" my "thought-box."

I always identified with the Tin-man, but if the Scarecrow motif warms your heart, I'll do it ... but no fires are allowed!

image

Additionally, I am not aware of how I, and my insistence, got linked to a straw man. Oh, I read the assorted quotes, but I saw no causal link between Shiva and the Scarecrow. Or maybe there's an acausal, meaningful coincidence link.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Does this "another downside" mean being in bondage and slavery of said "successful superiority complex"???

Yes. Somebody has to do it (succumb). Give the man a box of straw-filled cigars. Cannabis straw is now legal in selected communities.


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "Additionally, I am not aware of how I, and my insistence, got linked to a straw man. Oh, I read the assorted quotes, but I saw no causal link between Shiva and the Scarecrow. Or maybe there's an acausal, meaningful coincidence link."

 

When I stated that "... A form of superiority complex, is a risk for those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain" ...", Michael Staley asked "Who is it who insists that all Thelemites must "attain"?", while at the same time stating; "I've never come across anyone who states that."

In the first posting on this page, ignant666 describes my statement about "those insisting that all Thelemites must "attain"", to be referring to nothing more than one of the many "straw men" or "imaginary people" that inhabit my mind, or my "thought-box." Implying that no person, or no Thelemite like the Thelemites described in Aleister Crowley's The book of the Law, will insist on "that all Thelemites must "attain"".

My irony or sarcasm directed towards ignant666, is that you insisting on that all Thelemites "... must at least try to attain (primordial consciousness).", makes you one of the above mentioned "straw men" (or "imaginary people"), described by ignant666 in the first posting on this page, as existing only in my mind. 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Yeah, the bird doesn't like religions. 

 

I'm not sure that has any meaning, because surely the religious stuff not to like is the orthodoxy which suppresses a minority view + whatever social politics is being cooked up at the time, and surely we would not need a 7D level chess holy book cypher to let us know that religious organizations are a bile on the planet. Plus, those type of orthodox psychological forces are not only found in religious groups but also atheist groups, academia, etc.

Posted by: @herupakraath

Crowley utilizes the Egyptian trinity when it fits his theory of aeonic succession

The fact that the name of one deity is used as named by in another religion altogether is where the medium is the message.

Crowley had a extremely limited view of aeonic succession from a gnostic sense or any sense that I can see, i'm not even sure if it is a theory, he barely touches on the dialectical process covering a few thousand years.

Nuit is the ordering principle of the universe. She is nothing but a collection of an infinite number of Buddhas (Hadits). This self is nothing but the reflection of Nuit (the collection of all the sentient beings awakened) back.

RHK is NOT the ordering principle of the universe. RHK is the collective psyche of humanity, solely and provisionally at this time while we adjust to our new role as custodians, creators, and organizer of the universe.

RHK curses the gods sure, because the gods are created by humanity, we are the collection of soon to be Buddhas (i mean that in a relative sense) and the notion that each of us are that divine creator, and the collection of us throughout all time, perhaps the creators of the universe itself. Absolutely that concept about who we are and where we are going crushes all religious systems which are just vehicles to support this conclusion.

There is not one Religion which can not be used in a non dual tantric manner, and there isn't one philosophy or religious view that could not become an abomination against humanity.

Also, Deities do not really exist independent of us, so I am not sure what the fuss would be about anyway. If we don't like the way RHK plays out, let's come up with a better deity.

 

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The logic of your post appears to rest on face value interpretation of Liber AL, and specifically you therefore interpret a deity who is attacking other deities, placing Ra-Hoor-Khu in this dualistic contest between the gods of old.

If "on face value" means I'm weighing what the verse actually states as opposed to what I want it to mean, then you're correct.

"Dualistic" would involve two competing forces, which is not the case in RHK's attack on the demigods of mankind. RHK attacks the demigods with no resistance on their part, thus illustrating his superiority, and their inability to contend with him. 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

And I suppose if that is the world and Thelema you want...you know, do what thou wilt, go for it

The conclusion drawn has nothing to do with what I want, it is simply a matter of reading the text.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

However, we also have an option of viewing Liber Al vel Legis as written in a twilight language, not uncommon at all, in any way, with tantric literature.

You can fantasize any meaning you want to, but it will not bring one any closer to understanding the intended meaning of the text.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

and then we can note that any logic of face value interpretation is utterly defeated within the text itself, for sure,

I can demonstrate there are many hidden meanings within the text of Liber L, but where my conclusions diverge from others is in rejecting the thought they relate to comparative religious claptrap.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

RHK does suggest cursing other gods, as well as being your best waiter in your best restaurant so he can serve up the flesh of your own personal enemies and then feed you that flesh as the meal of the day.

That you can on one hand wax poetically about twilight languages, but not recognize 'flesh' as a metaphor says something about your peculiar logic.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

But in another area the same voice also says "The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me"

So here we find a very logical "contradiction" in the interpretation that RHK is on a dualistic quest to curse all the gods of men.

So while I was not using logic to derive my interpretation, I am surely using logic to show you that what your suggesting is logically contradicted in the text.

On the contrary, you have cherry-picked the one verse that is used to support the conclusion that RHK extends an olive branch to the gods of other religions, along with the belief that their worship exalts him. The error, and a grievous one at that, is in ignoring the preceding verse:

Set up my image in the East: thou shalt buy thee an image which I will show thee, especial, not unlike the one thou knowest. And it shall be suddenly easy for thee to do this.

Obviously his image is set up in the East to reflect his solar nature. To do so, one must determine what the image or something similar to it is. RHK does not describe himself as having the head of a hawk until 30 verses later. With no physical description given prior to verse III:51, there are only two available resources to tap as a means of determining what a suitable image is. The first is the name Ra-Hoor-Khuit, which must be treated as the name of an Egyptian god if it is to be used to as a source for the image, or the image of Ra-Horakhty depicted on the Stele of Revealing can be used. Either way, there is no getting around the image being that of the god Horus.

My conclusion is supported further by the fact that images of the various demigods are easily procured, and are not special, while images of Egyptian gods are scarce. Now consider the phrase, not unlike the one thou knowest; again, this has to refer to images of Horus or similar gods, such as Mentu, or other gods with the head of falcon or hawk, which exalt Horus symbolically.

The worst aspect of misinterpreting the verse is the basic rule of magick it violates. Similar objects attract similar force, whereas a group of different objects that share no common symbolism are by definition chaotic, and of no value magically.

For myself, verse III:21 is a prediction that was fulfilled. I was shown such an image unexpectedly, a falcon head carved from glass, and had no money to purchase it. I bought a $1.00 lottery ticket that same day, and won enough money from the ticket to purchase the image, in 1993.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

As to the entirety of the book, it mentions a new "organizing principle" of deity, where the deity of the 5 major world religions actually play a part, all "cluster" to exalt the "child" at this time (humanity, we are RKH)

It mentions no such thing, and you have apparently bought into the comparative religious fantasies of those that have preceded you. The reason Crowley and others revert to comparative religion as a means of injecting meaning into the Book of the Law is because it is their only resource.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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@herupakraath

Posted by: @herupakraath

If "on face value" means I'm weighing what the verse actually states as opposed to what I want it to mean, then you're correct.

No, face value means that the meaning of the text is only equal to the meaning of the words as they are discovered in the Oxford dictionary. Applied to religious texts, it means, for example, that Jews or Christians who believe there was actually a garden of eden 6000 years ago is because they look at the face value, not the esoteric or hidden value, of the text.

That is what I mean by "face value" interpretation.

Posted by: @herupakraath

"Dualistic" would involve two competing forces, which is not the case in RHK's attack on the demigods of mankind. RHK attacks the demigods with no resistance on their part, thus illustrating his superiority, and their inability to contend with him. 

So Lions and tigers are not in a dualistic struggle with baby gazelle?

Dualistic struggle is any sort of replacing this one thing with that one thing, because this thing and that thing are two different things. That is dualism. And, as the same text says....a nice way to arrive at suffering. (hurt)

And like I said, if you want a dualistic thelema and liber al vel legis, go for it. I shall not stand in your way!

Posted by: @herupakraath

The conclusion drawn has nothing to do with what I want, it is simply a matter of reading the text.

If it were simply a manner of reading the text, then you and I would have the same and identical interpretation.

Posted by: @herupakraath

You can fantasize any meaning you want to, but it will not bring one any closer to understanding the intended meaning of the text.

Well thank you! Although I must say I prefer the standard "Do what thou wilt..." as it has a more sophisticated flair to it.

And the word "fantasize"...you are coming pretty close to revealing some occult secrets with that one, hehe. Fantasize, yes! More often!

However..."understanding the intended meaning of the text" intended by whom and how can you tell when you've properly gleamed the intended meaning?

Well, a good place to begin would be the actual practice of magick/tantra and understanding how twilight languages are used, specifically in tantras, to communicate non dual "meaning" which tends to be clouded by the dual mind.

Posted by: @herupakraath

I can demonstrate there are many hidden meanings within the text of Liber L, but where my conclusions diverge from others is in rejecting the thought they relate to comparative religious claptrap.

yes, I noted the same peculiar phenomenon in your demonstration, here we are on the same page!

Posted by: @herupakraath

That you can on one hand wax poetically about twilight languages, but not recognize 'flesh' as a metaphor says something about your peculiar logic.

Oh my goodness, I really hate to say this but you sir, have misinterpreted my text/joke/metaphor! Such projections are actually predictable, so I shall not chide you too heavily, but why do you get to choose which are the metaphors and which are the real intended meanings? 

For example, how do you know that pecking the eyes of jesus and eating buddhas flesh is not a metaphor for a deeper underlying mystery about religion in this place in history? 

Why do you assume that such "vengeful" spewings of a hawk sun god directly imply that:

  • There are in objective existence actually "gods" as third person verifiable intelligences that exist independent of the human mind, your mind, my mind and all minds in this conversation?
  • And that these gods are divided between "all gods who are not RHK, from the past, bad, puny, weak" and THEE god (and our boy!) RHK, the great and strong?
  • If you were never aware of Thelema, do you actually think that struggle would be going on without you? Did it start before you even read Liber al Vel Legis?

 

I don't mind your dualism. You can have it.

I just mind that you appear attached to this rather odd concept that you have this objective interpretation of Liber al Vel Legis and that the very notion of considering the text as a "twilight language" is the same as "cherry picking" an argument with a school boy.

 

Posted by: @herupakraath

On the contrary, you have cherry-picked the one verse that is used to support the conclusion that RHK extends an olive branch to the gods of other religions, along with the belief that their worship exalts him. The error, and a grievous one at that, is in ignoring the preceding verse:

Excuse me, that is a bit "rude" and huffy,  as I have explained to you my interpretation is based on direct experience with using the text as twilight language to illuminate the state of being.

I do not "cherry" pick, as I am making no "argument" other than you can interpret the text in a dualistic way or another way using twilight language.

If you view it dualistically, you will always arrive at dualistic interpretations, or you can interpret it another way and arrive at non dual awareness.

That is your choice, choose ye well hehe

Posted by: @herupakraath

For myself, verse III:21 is a prediction that was fulfilled. I was shown such an image unexpectedly, a falcon head carved from glass, and had no money to purchase it. I bought a $1.00 lottery ticket that same day, and won enough money from the ticket to purchase the image, in 1993.

That was your prediction.

You predicted that that verse meant that a lottery ticket purchase escalated into a successful lottery ticket purchase of a statue means that the entire proper view of Liber al Vel Legis is dualistic. And you made that spell back in 1993 and it is still going strong today as we all can make a testament to the power of your magick.

Posted by: @herupakraath

It mentions no such thing, and you have apparently bought into the comparative religious fantasies of those that have preceded you. The reason Crowley and others revert to comparative religion as a means of injecting meaning into the Book of the Law is because it is their only resource.

Well it mentioned it to me personally, I should have said, hehe.

and by "those who have proceeded you" I can only interpret that as my very own treasured and cherished lineage tree, and you sir, once again are 100% correct, I have bought into my lineage hook, line, and sinker and the non dual awareness via twilight language is still working after more than 2,000 years!

fyi and in that sense, Liber al Vel Legis is rather derivative.

Thanks! This is fun 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Volumes, long lengthy postings. Endless duality, world without ending. This, that, and the other guys, too. Crowley's mild discrepancies fade into the background of an epic presentation of the discrepancies and discontents of Book AL, Chapter the Third.

I note that RHK is a composite deity: A bit of Sun [R], a touch of Mars (H), and a (Chesedic?) vehicle that coos (K). Khu = an ancient Egyptian mythology, a part of the soul or spirit which left the body after death.

Regardless of his qualities, he is attributed to Kether, which is One, which has been shown to not exist (see the 2=0 equation).

The only solution to these mysterious mysteries is to apply the principles to one's self, the so-called "inner application."


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Endless duality, world without ending.

I love all but Perhaps a small change to a "continually resolving duality" so we can remove a bit-o-the suffering? hehe i.e. change the duality into a continual union, divided for loves sake, for merely the "chance" for this great dance 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

I appreciate the use of the notion of "twilight language" as an entirely appropriate approach to which the application of the term 'tantra' is relevant to the mysteries of such a book that is, by its own admission:

"Written and Concealed"

Also.....continue having fun!


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Also.....continue having fun!

Well I never like to overstay my welcome, but I insist on interpreting this as a request for more 🙂

Not realizing this would even be a controversial claim, I went back into my years long notes about my aha's on Liber Al vel Legis, which I view as a remarkably inclusive work, introducing a truly global religious view from the perennial tradition.

The entirety of the text remains consistent along these lines, an inclusiveness of world systems, world religions, etc

So here are some notes I made about this from Chapter 1 of Liber Al vel Legis.

Chapter 1

  • Nuit (breaking the "fourth" wall, speaking and referring to the scribe) refers to Crowley and his gal pals The Beast and his Bride the Scarlet Woman.

Two major characters in Thelema are from the Christian paradigm, as in come to Jesus.

And not just any characters, but two characters that are specifically involved with the resolution of time or history, an ending of the age.

  • She then explains to "the two of them" how the new ordering of divinity arranges itself at this new time, a "new" way to perceive the divine opposites.

For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight.

Nuit is linking classical male and female symbols of the "sun and moon", which convey an outdated relationship in the older alchemies (systems of magick, tantra, etc). It is not that the older systems are outdated, its that our language is.

Sun and Moon had a different relationship in the sky 2000 years ago.

They "appear" at the exact same size to the naked eye, and the earth appears to be the center of the show, and therefore using sun and moon were universal "equal but opposite" symbols in the old aeon.

In 1904, we know the moon revolves around the earth, but the earth revolves around the sun, which itself moves around a galactic center.

Why is that important? because our knowledge of our solar system no longer reflects the internal "meaning" of the role of male/female–and Nuit immediately rearranges these energies as an "interstellar" model.

That is what Nuit does, she puts things in perfect order and harmony.

And that is all she does throughout the chapter.

Also the mantras and spells; the obeah and the wanga; 

the work of the wand and the work of the sword; 

these he shall learn and teach.

"Obeah"  and Wanga are words coming from the systems within African shamanism.

Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; 

and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one.

She  tells us to “Let Asar be  with Isa”.

Nuit is performing the “ordering principle of the universe” she organizes where everything goes, and effortlessly she organizes some pretty significant “gods” of significant world religions, specifically where they go in time (history) and space.

Asar is an Egyptian reference to Osiris in ONE system, and “Isa” is the name of Jesus of Christianity in Islam, three systems are introduced as sharing ONE thing in common. 

Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; 

Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

Nuit continually “orders” things in their proper places. 

Nuit is so collaborative she found a place for both Asar and Isa, a relationship where they have harmony and she then assigns them that harmony.

So although we have yet to go "east" in the book, already we have systems of Egyptian, African, Islam and Christianity all playing new roles in this game.

With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit.

She is the union of the God and the Adorer, she is above a duality.

Right away she makes reference of the non dual state, of which she is defining all the distinctions necessary for a dualistic mind to retrace its steps back into awareness.

Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between 

any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.

She tells us to bind nothing because existence is already "bounded" together and that's her job.

This theme of our underlying connectedness plays out different ways in Chapter 1, 2, and 3.

As she tells us she is infinite space and stars (infinite time) she is just the harmony of all existence and she does her job absolutely perfectly.

The underlying theme of Liber al Vel Legis from this perspective is unity, interconnectivity, harmony between all viewpoints, systems, religions, etc and viewing through twilight language remains remarkably consistent.

I think what makes Liber al so special because although it is a tantra, its unique because its solely relying on language, not songs or mandalas, but prose–and even references writing itself, the author and characters of writing, enjoying writing, etc that it is a purely language based tantra, a tantra of writing and composing! Books are pages and letters "bounded" together like a rug is "woven" together.

That's pretty special, at least to me.

 

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

I appreciate the use of the notion of "twilight language" as an entirely appropriate approach to which the application of the term 'tantra' is relevant to the mysteries of such a book that is, by its own admission:

"Written and Concealed"

"Written and Concealed"

I think what makes Liber al so special because although it is a tantra, its unique because its solely relying on language, not songs or mandalas, but prose–and even references writing itself, the author and characters of writing, enjoying writing, etc that it is a purely language based tantra, a tantra of writing and composing!

Books are pages and letters "bounded" together like a rug is "woven" together.

One of the meanings of the word tantra is to "weave".

"Paste the sheets from left to right, top to bottom, then behold!" to me is almost a direct instruction to view this as a tantra, a new kind of tantra.

Because of the internet (a true RHK manifestation if there ever was one) "writing" is apart of our daily lives whereas 2000 years ago, weaving linens and clothing was a daily part of our lives.

(this was meant to be in my previous response, yet only an incomplete version made it in, apologies for any duplication)

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the internet (a true RHK manifestation if there ever was one)

The new guy might be interested in my ancient arguments that a) the internet is the "war-engine", and b) said war-engine makes easy the "abstruction" of said stele to any internet-connected device anywhere on said planet, and has said* "miraculous colour" and "locked glass" things covered.

This is if you don't think LSD is the war-engine. Could be both of course.

______________________

*Channeling a certain said person.


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hadgigegenraum
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@ignant666

Bravo....I remember reading that years ago...


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

remove a bit-o-the suffering?

It's not gonna happen. Somewhen around 500 BC this Siddhartha guy proclaimed, "Existence is Sorrow." He also whispered, "Birth! Incessant Birth!"

That was around the time of the Khemist, Ankh-f-n-khonsu (spellings vary). He, theoretically, brought in the last aeon. He suffered for that sin.

The suffering can only be removed, one persona at a time, by him-her self. If you want to go into that ... okay.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

Thanks for the extended commentaries....

Now as regards discrepancies... I found your response to the experience of @herupakraath in 1993,   acquiring a crystal hawk totem, to be not a reflection of dualistic outlook, but rather a manifestation that speaks to the very core of the 'twilight language"  and "tantric" hologram you are forwarding, and thus of one in the midst of an initiatory realm, perhaps, that should be honored at face value...

I am sure that your revelations of meaning regarding Liber Legis have had some sort of relevance for you that could be perhaps classified as 'signs and wonders' so to speak and thus Herupakraath's particular visitation of a tangible confirmation of resonance with the very current...

Of course Crowley did emphasize a scientific attitude towards such phenomena, to which I suppose that Herupakraath might well have made a note of occurrence, particularly as acts such a notations and diaries serve as a vehicle for allowing one to make relevant recording such that synchronistic happenings might be given a form of ordering, such that an objective approach might balance those whom the fever from the skies can produce a certain mania and attendant mental displacements.

The "Oath of the Abyss" I think is something that has actually been sort of programmed automatically by those who might venture into reading the Book of the Law and other relevant texts. all the while starting to do practices from the 'do it your self' nature of Magick in theory & Practice, etc....

"Danger, Danger" sayeth the robot in 'Lost in Space'!

We are not mere robots though!

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

The new guy might be interested in my ancient arguments that a) the internet is the "war-engine",

The new guy and the ancient guy are on the same page 👍 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

It's not gonna happen. Somewhen around 500 BC this Siddhartha guy proclaimed, "Existence is Sorrow." He also whispered, "Birth! Incessant Birth!"

That's not the interesting thing he said, is it? I wonder how much of an influence Crowley has had on that perception, as his experience with Buddhism was with the orthodox Theravada school of Buddhism, which is rather bland and far from magickal.

He doesnt take a wizard to say life is suffering, especially 2500 years ago, extreme suffering was a common feature of reality, no one could question that.

Buddha showed that existence is actually Nirvana, bliss, and the cause of suffering is duality, which leads to desire, which leads to further separation, and division, and all harm.

Liber al says the identical, no? All the sorrows are but as shadows, they pass (impermanence) and are done, but there is that which remains (nirvana, primordial self, bliss)

Posted by: @shiva

That was around the time of the Khemist, Ankh-f-n-khonsu (spellings vary). He, theoretically, brought in the last aeon. He suffered for that sin.

Buddha precedes Ankh-f-n, historically speaking, a few centuries before the Khemist you mention, which raises a great correlation.

..the previous aeon, the aeon of the suffering god, of sacrifice, what the "aeon" introduced was the absolute necessity of having compassion towards each other as an essential building block of civilization.

The key component of the previous aeon was the role of compassion in society.

It was a very "infectious" meme, this notion of compassion as Buddha initiated, and Jesus and Ankh-f-n did in the west.

Pathways of compassion as both Buddhism and Christianity were core viral seeders of this civilization building tantras and magicks from 2000 years ago and longer.

I think perhaps the question is, how much did Buddhism influence the pre-christian mystery schools that we think of in the west?

Posted by: @shiva

The suffering can only be removed, one persona at a time, by him-her self. If you want to go into that ... okay.

I'm not sure what you mean by "suffering" so I would like to offer my meaning and that is human suffering as a surviving by the seat of our pants species–we murder each other, abuse each other, rip each other's limbs out, suppress kindness and continue to not give a shit as we focus on our immediate short term gains, for millions of years. 

And the entire point of any true mystery tradition, kabala cult, alchemy freemason buddhist vajra  jesuit what ever for thousands of years is civilization building, building a better world, bringing more light into the world, feeding more people, having less and less starvation, less and less war, less and less suffering.

So in that regard i would highly disagree with how you phrased it, because the suffering is removed by all of us working together and learning to trust and build together more, its a collaborative affair and because of this, there exist vast and entire magical lineages devoted to relieving suffering in the world as the sole focus of all of their magical rituals, indeed their entire existence.

So I'm betting on the above because if I have to wait around for each and every single person to do it themselves I'll be here forever lol

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @ignant666

The new guy might be interested in my ancient arguments that a) the internet is the "war-engine",

The new guy and the ancient guy are on the same page 👍 

The engine is pranayama as explained in the New or Old comment. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

The "Oath of the Abyss" I think is something that has actually been sort of programmed automatically by those who might venture into reading the Book of the Law and other relevant texts. all the while starting to do practices from the 'do it your self' nature of Magick in theory & Practice, etc....

"Danger, Danger" sayeth the robot in 'Lost in Space'!

Eventually, everyone will get the joke 🙂

Thank you for your words!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

The engine is pranayama as explained in the New or Old comment.

Then the war-engine was not given by RHK, but by the maha siddis 😀 thousands of years previously.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @dom

The engine is pranayama as explained in the New or Old comment.

Then the war-engine was not given by RHK, but by the maha siddis 😀 thousands of years previously.

Yeah because Liber Legis is absolutely out of nowhere without any sort of reference or reliance on past philosophies;

 

61 the Jews call it.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

Yeah because Liber Legis is absolutely out of nowhere without any sort of reference or reliance on past philosophies;

 

So you're suggesting that RHK promises to give us something in the future, a "war engine", which is not a technology or wonder that brings interconnectivity and paradigm shattering methodology of communication at levels inconceivable previously, but rather a yoga class?

Posted by: @dom

61 the Jews call it.

 

I'm not sure anyone has a name for what you're suggesting 😲 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I'm not sure what you mean by "suffering"

Anything that disturbs the tranquility, the Will, the harmony, or whatever non-sorrowful state you find yourself in.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

we murder each other, abuse each other, rip each other's limbs out, suppress kindness and continue to not give a shit as we focus on our immediate short term gains, for millions of years. 

Let's face it. This is Hell. To my knowledge, there is no denser realm. Of course, one can always manage to get themselves into a denser, more restrictive, lower-circle situation, like prison, or Afghanistan, or the coal mines of North Korea, so a case could be made for this being purgatory. But today, I'll settle for Hell.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

civilization building, building a better world, bringing more light into the world, feeding more people, having less and less starvation, less and less war, less and less suffering.

Yes. Science and the construction industry can be given credit for a lot of that. According to today's news, the wars and the suffering still continue. I believe religions are behind the wars. I like some of the comforts and technologies, and I'm far away from any current front line, so it's okay for today.

Otherwise, it is Hell. See Ch 23 (Get Out) in The Book of Lies.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

if I have to wait around for each and every single person to do it themselves I'll be here forever lol

I think that is the idea ... of the Bodhisattva vow. No nirvana 'till all the cows are in the barn.

But if we're all one, then there's really only one cow. And when that cow (or bull) enters the barn, she/he disappears into nothing and who's to say if a barn exists if there's no cow to see it?

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I'm not sure anyone has a name for what you're suggesting

Ain.

Nada.

For I have crushed a universe, and Nada remains.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
Posted by: @dom

Yeah because Liber Legis is absolutely out of nowhere without any sort of reference or reliance on past philosophies;

 

So you're suggesting that RHK promises to give us something in the future, a "war engine", which is not a technology or wonder that brings interconnectivity and paradigm shattering methodology of communication at levels inconceivable previously, but rather a yoga class?

Posted by: @dom

61 the Jews call it.

 

I'm not sure anyone has a name for what you're suggesting 😲 

RHK inspired the New /Old Comment.  Maybe you could read it or at least that relevant section. 

 

You're a good guy, you're not a nut or an edge- Lord but I'd review this penchant for looking for prophecies in books as that sort of thing is best left for Jehova's Witnesses imo.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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" Gone gone gone left the multitudes and rejoined those who are in the light,
opened the dwelling place of the stars;
to go forth by day
to do everything that pleased him
upon earth, among the living. "

The secret Chiefs
decided that the old aeonic influence of the con into believing systems of reinforcing scriptures and authority to confirm that, that construct is the true existential experience while limiting and denying the true nature of the one we have of sentient awareness; has resulted in despoiling sacred places, burning scientists, and torturing those that showed another power; in order to establish love or to be the paradigmatic ideal for saving seemingly others that are empty of intrinsic existence and nature.

As contrary and diametrically opposed belief systems collide a New Aeon needs to emerge.

 

Isa = one that was not resurrected.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

RHK inspired the New /Old Comment.  Maybe you could read it or at least that relevant section. 

 

You're a good guy, you're not a nut or an edge- Lord but I'd review this penchant for looking for prophecies in books as that sort of thing is best left for Jehova's Witnesses imo.  

Hi. Thx. I think you're a good guy too. We're pals and all. 93. Big ups. I would be a bit more cautious though with me on the "nut" side of things, I am a completely ridiculous human being and I've been called far worse 🙂

But on this note, I think you're missing quite an opportunity for exploration. Sure, much of it, all of it actually, speculative–however, depending on how you do it, and for what purpose, it can actually help.

So, Crowley claims the book "explains the universe", right?

And specifically, at this moment in time, right?

And the book was written in 1904, right?

It's 2021, right?

So cool, in principle we have the entirety to the 20th century and some but not all of the 21st to see if Liber Al vel Legis truly has any "predictive power". 

If the book is anything close to what it claims to be, it must be able to make predictions if it has any relevancy.

It is those predicted events, coming true in some enough sense that the prediction seems reasonable within the scope.

I mean, I would have a serious problem with Liber al Vel Legis if it didn't predict the internet.

Consider all the world's religions with their apocalypses and not one of them saw the internet coming. What a better statement as to the outdated nature of those older religions.

Making predictions with what you're working with is entirely rational.

Everything I have gleaned in a psychological sense from Liber al vel Legis, meaning the study of which has helped me learn about my mind and more importantly, our mind–in a manner which has translated into real world practical application, also shows me that Liber al vel Legis is not making "psychic" predictions like a fortune teller, but showing where signposts are along certain stages of evolution of "intelligence", as Leary would have explained it.

Simply understanding where the unconscious forces (which are always "us in the future", Harpocrates) which are evolutionary and "dialectical" in nature, are leading us.

So, intuitively speaking, it makes absolute sense to me that RHK represents our collective mind at this stage and moment where we are linking up as a species and all the chaos we are experiencing going along with it on the internet. It remains consistent with everything I have learned about myself and the world too.

if liber al vel legis ch 3 is not referencing this time and the internet, sheesh what a waste of time, some pre boomer document by some old dead white guy who has a radio somewhere. snore.

EDIT: besides, didnt that old dead guy even say that he would leave ch 3 "for the children of the new aeon" to interpret? 

That be us 🙂

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Anything that disturbs the tranquility, the Will, the harmony, or whatever non-sorrowful state you find yourself in.

Okay, that is what I figured, suffering as an existential state of mind.

While I do certainly agree with that, I extend it a bit more to include specifically the types of suffering that it is easy to do something about, easy to remove, the type of suffering everyone has perfect agreement on devoid of religion or philosophy. starvation, disease, irrationality/ignorance, poverty, trauma. Those types of suffering are 100% fixable and correctable, allowing the deeper nature of the mind, and any medicine to "Cure" it of its suffering, to actually find the "peace" to actually start doing that type of reflective work (therapeutic, spiritual, psychological, etc)

Its a luxury to have time and conditions strong enough to give someone the opportunity to work on the deeper causes of suffering (mental afflictions) and stresses of survival and all that suffering therein is the foundation.

Posted by: @shiva

Let's face it. This is Hell. To my knowledge, there is no denser realm. Of course, one can always manage to get themselves into a denser, more restrictive, lower-circle situation, like prison, or Afghanistan, or the coal mines of North Korea, so a case could be made for this being purgatory. But today, I'll settle for Hell.

Yes. Science and the construction industry can be given credit for a lot of that. According to today's news, the wars and the suffering still continue. I believe religions are behind the wars. I like some of the comforts and technologies, and I'm far away from any current front line, so it's okay for today.

Otherwise, it is Hell. See Ch 23 (Get Out) in The Book of Lies.

 

I've gleaned enough of your wisdom to know that you likely do not really believe that in any literal sense, as you are surely more than most of us here aware that in most if not all esoteric traditions, humanity is always existing in some kind of "in-between" realm with a nasty hell type below and a desirable heaven type above with varying degrees in between.

Its the struggle from the hell below (our animal natures, or worse) and the reaching for our higher natures (bodhisattva/adepts/god-man) in heaven that make this "realm" in all world systems highly desirable for growth, for as much suffering as there is there is equal to that much happiness and potential for transcendence.

The arts and sciences can be given 100% of all credit for 100% of all civilization building.

Historically speaking, as it appears to me after a lifetime of research, discovery, buffoonery and baloney, that all spiritual "brotherhoods", east and west, from freemason to alchemist to Mahayana and Persian mages, are responsible for seeding "ideas" which become the design principles for artists and scientists building better civilizations.

EDIT: and I view Liber al vel Legis no different, and simply continuing a long ancient tradition, and Crowley doesn't even need to be aware that is what the document is accomplishing.

Posted by: @shiva

I think that is the idea ... of the Bodhisattva vow. No nirvana 'till all the cows are in the barn.

But if we're all one, then there's really only one cow. And when that cow (or bull) enters the barn, she/he disappears into nothing and who's to say if a barn exists if there's no cow to see it?

Sure, yes thank you but that is the basic understanding and i believe this may be more "universal", extending into other world religious/shamanic systems.

So exactly, in one sense we are one big cow, so there are indeed collective things that can happen that can transform humanity really quickly because of that (see 20th century) and the more collective problems are solved, the more people like you and I have time to actually do work on ourselves, spend time exploring and practicing and evolving greater and more powerful "magick" that keeps the flow of fresh ideas from the skies going, motivating, inspiring, designing, etc.

However, like your original point, the underlying suffering of the mind as an agitated state has a cause, that cause is duality, and liberation from that ultimate cause can only be done by the individual, as long as that individual can keep their children fed and rent paid, so they have the time and proper tools to do that work.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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 Isa = one that was not resurrected.

Isa means "Salvation from God" in Hebrew. Isa is the name of Jesus in the Quran, and you are correct in Islam Isa was never on the cross and never resurrected.

In the first Chapter, I find that the voice of Nuit clears that up, as she wants Asar (Osiris, the dying and resurrected god) to be with Isa (the historical man who "suffered" for the sake of humanity).

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Ain.

Nada.

For I have crushed a universe, and Nada remains.

And thus concludes how our "inter-connectiveness", which is mystery, sunyata, limitless light, nothing that the mind can comprehend, both existing and non existing, plays out in Chp 3 of Liber al Vel Legis.

right after RHK links himself with the winter solstice, and all the mythologies of the coming messiah themes that go along with it 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

RHK inspired the New /Old Comment.

Or maybe Aleister simply had a monad hiding in his cranium (like we all do), which he chose to call RHK (spelled Re Horakhty by Egyptologists and everyone else but Crowley) and, like Aiwass, these are all attributed to Kether, which is interpreted as an AEgyptian god, or an Angel ... and all the time it was just Crowley listening to himself and writing it down.

Posted by: @tiger

to do everything that pleased him

Hedonism.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I've been called far worse

Scary? Troublemaker? The source of evil and discontent? Weird? Strange? Insane? Stupid? There's no need to re-cite the four-letter names and potty-moth slangisms.

I am familiar with these terms. They are used by the populace to identify various Strangers in this Strange Land.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

with a nasty hell type below and a desirable heaven type above with varying degrees in between.

I agree with this, except for the "below" part. Yes, one can "go down" in the subconscious/astral real and find caverns filled with alien dragons and vicious trolls.

But we actually start out in the densest realm (hard matter, mostly silicon- and carbon-based). When one begins The Path, the first thing they come up against, as they rise up through the astral, is dragons and trolls. This is because they reside on the lower sub-planes of the astral plane, which is actually a higher frequency than hard matter (and thus more fluidic).

So the aspirant "rises up" through these "planes," each of which is a higher frequency than the one "below" it. The true "Hell" is something one must go through. It is "the burning ground," and it extends from Yesod up to Chesed, The alchemists would call it purification.

On the way up, the way to stop suffering is to stop the [talking part of the] mind. This, of course, is the goal, and we get it (the stoppage) in brief hits during the elevator ride up.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

it appears to me after a lifetime of research

I was under the impression that you have only served approximately one-half of a lifetime.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the mind as an agitated state has a cause, that cause is duality, and liberation from that ultimate cause can only be done by the individual

Right on. The problem with duality is that the separated individual is only one part (one-half) of the dualism. With the other hal "missing," everybody exists in this existential state of angst or anxiety. This unpleasant state disappears when the mind is allowed to take a break and rest.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

keep their children fed and rent paid

I have always paid my rent, fees, and dues in advance. I was fortunate in that I had no children to feed or to bail out of jail.

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: " Regardless of his (= RHK's) qualities, he is attributed to Kether, which is One, which has been shown to not exist (see the 2=0 equation).

The only solution to these mysterious mysteries is to apply the principles to one's self, the so-called "inner application." "

Yes, A.C.'s Thelema is a creation based on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, in which the three chapters of the most holy "threefold book" (Chapter 1, verse 35) of it, The Book of the Law, are attributed to the three Supernals of this Tree, Keter, Chokhmah, and Binah. According to the system of A.C.'s Thelema, "The Abyss is the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world [= the apparent world, that is, the world as it appears to us inside our heads], and its noumenal [= real, pertaining to reality as it really is ouside our heads] source (Source: "Abyss From Thelemapedia" - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Abyss) ."

And the latter noumenal source, Keter, is one of the just mentioned three Supernals on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, on the side of the just mentioned "Abyss", that is beyond the phenomenal world or "the apparent world", as defined above.

Chapter 1 in A.C.'s The Book of the Law, representing Nuit, is attributed to Binah (Transcendent Understanding, trancending "the apparent world"). Chapter 2 in A.C.'s The Book of the Law, representing Hadit, is attributed to Chokhmah (= Transcendent Wisdom, also trancending "the apparent world"). And chapter 3 in A.C.'s The Book of the Law, representing RHK, is atrributed to Keter (= Crown, the ultimate noumenal source point of the phenomenal world, or "the apparent world").

The final third chapter of this The Book of the Law, deals with "hither homeward" (Chapter III, verse 2.), or the return up the Qabalistic Tree of Life. And as a system of initiation, A.C.'s Thelema represents a form of emanationism; "... Emanationism tends to be combined with an eschatology [= a part of theology concerned with the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity.] (or soteriology [= the branch of theology dealing with the study of salvation]) that envisions the soul's return to its ultimate source of being by epostrophē or "reversion" (see A. Altmann, Studies in Religious Philosophy and Mysticism (1969), 41ff.)." ( Source: "Jewish Virtual Library [-] a project of AICE[:] Emanation" - - - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/emanation ) Said "soul's return to its ultimate source of being", is according to A.C.'s Thelema attained through certain initiations, two of which are obligatory for all; unification and conversation with your "HGA", and "Crossing the Abyss".

angewanchuck56, your statement that "... there isn't one philosophy or religious view that could not become an abomination against humanity. ...", is in line with the with what that was "shown" to, Aleister Crowley, in The Cry of the 5th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice. (Described by A.C. in chapter 66 of his The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography, as the second most important book of his Thelema.) :

"... It is shown me that [...] this is the great Mystery of the Supernals that are beyond the Abyss. For below the Abyss, contradiction is division; but above the Abyss, contradiction is Unity. And there could be nothing true except by virtue of the contradiction that is contained in itself."(The just mentioned revealed "great Mystery of the Supernals that are beyond the Abyss.", appears to indicate that a serious change of consciousness is required to "cross" this "Abyss".

AS for your statement that "There is not one Religion which can not be used in a non dual tantric manner ...", "There is no god but man.", according to A.C.'s Liber LXXVII, or Book 77,or Liber Oz. And A.C. referred to at type of atheist, which basically believes in God but not as something separate from oneself.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Chapter 2 ...  representing Hadit, is attributed to Chokhmah

But 777 and common sense places Hadit (the point) at Kether. And Nuit is (outer space) and attributed to the Ains. I don't see a triune correlation 'twixt the Chapters and the Supernals.

Here's the deal in a box: These Chapters and Players have names, qualities, and goals. These are all concepts. Concepts, names, goals, and fish are all rational-mind ideas. Such things do not exist above the Abyss. They are mental.

As I stated previously, somewhere: Descriptions of things above the Abyss is very tricky and one can get all twisted due to the paradox ultimatum.

Along these same lines, I have a situation with the Supernals. We are told that Kether is One and he/she/it is White. Then we are told that the One (being None because there's nobody to see it) splits into two (0=2) which are black and white. But white is already white, so we settle for gray (Chokmah) and Black (Binah).

I would like to see Binah as Black, Chokmah as White, and Kether as Clear. You've heard of The Clear Light? But I suppose I won;t get very far, what with the stubborn attitude of some ("It doesn't say so in 777!") and the lack of motivation to push my point, this may be the only place that this configuration will ever appear ... before it disappears into the archives of forgetfulness.

But be of good cheer, for you (anyone who got this far) can claim you have seen secret data.

My advice is to go very slowly when making supernal attributions. It is especially fruitless to build castles out of cards up there. Below the frontier to No Man's Land, this QBL stuff makes more sense (to the mentat) and it usually goes just fine.But up there? ... QBL stops working at the Abyss, so why bother?

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

So cool, in principle we have the entirety to the 20th century and some but not all of the 21st to see if Liber Al vel Legis truly has any "predictive power". 

If the book is anything close to what it claims to be, it must be able to make predictions if it has any relevancy.

It is those predicted events, coming true in some enough sense that the prediction seems reasonable within the scope.

I mean, I would have a serious problem with Liber al Vel Legis if it didn't predict the internet.

 

Are you interested in Nostradamus at all?

 

Anyway I found a tenuous link.  The 40s and 80s are shown to be directly and specifically related in AL so there's a gestalt -jump thing going on there (although Shiva and Ignant666 will try to argue this away).  War = intensified advances made in technology, it always has.  For example the recent ridiculously fast discovery/production of the pfizer vaccine in the present war against coronavirus. 

The Axis powers with their rocketry and information -codes forced the Allies to step up their game in (Nazi) code-cracking with the development of  primitive information technology (Alan Turing etc) in the 40s.  In between the jump the mission to the Moon  relied heavily on WW2 rocketry advancements and on computers.  I doubt that you could get to space without using computers.    The beginnings of the personal home-computer revolution was an 80s phenomenon and I think modems were either first made in the 70s but stepped up in the 80s.   You know where Apple got their logo from?  That's a direct 40s-80s link right there for you.

If you want a better clarification on the internet and Thelema you'd have to go to the Horus-Maat Lodge who believe that 1974 was the start of the Aeon of Maat which heralds the new Aeon of information (amongst other things) after (but irrationally conterminous with)  the Aeon of War.

 

Nema (occultist) - Wikipedia

In 1974, she channelled a short book called Liber Pennae Praenumbra. Her ideas have been featured in the writings of Kenneth Grant.[7][8] In 1979, she co-founded the Horus-Maat Lodge

 

You won't find any direct reference to booting up P.C.s and laptops and/or installing 5G towers in  Liber Pennae Praenumbra though but why should holy books make meticulous predictions about future techno advancements anyway?  I don't recall any reference to Edison's light-bulbs in the Gospel of Luke.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

I would like to see Binah as Black, Chokmah as White, and Kether as Clear. You've heard of The Clear Light? But I suppose I won;t get very far, what with the stubborn attitude of some ("It doesn't say so in 777!") and the lack of motivation to push my point, this may be the only place that this configuration will ever appear ... before it disappears into the archives of forgetfulness

This reminds me of a friend who once challenged me to define Ain Soph....I drew a blank.......while under his growing pressure a 'dictionary' definition did not come to the fore, or a quip like 'on beyond zero' he started to get frustrated with me, and I realized that there really was no use trying, and though i tried to get him to realize a certain inarticulate essence...he hung up the phone...

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Me: "Chapter 2 ...  representing Hadit, is attributed to Chokhmah".

Shiva: "But 777 and common sense places Hadit (the point) at Kether. And Nuit is (outer space) and attributed to the Ains. I don't see a triune correlation 'twixt the Chapters and the Supernals."

 

No problem! As defined in The Book of the Law's, third and final chapter, verse 17 "... Nu is your refuge as Hadit your light; and I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms." – Hadit ("the infinitely small point within the core of every single thing". (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuit )) correlates to the Supernal emanation Keter, the apex source point from which emanates the light of "the spark of Godhead". (Page 206, The Angel & The Abyss, by Gunther, J. Daniel. First edition published in 2014 by Ibis Press[.])

Nuit (= "the infinitely-expanded circle whose circumference is unmeasurable and whose center is everywhere". (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuit )) correlates to the Supernal emanation Binah (= Understanding), through her daughter Babalon. Because Babalon in the 15th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice (described by A.C. in chapter 66 of his The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography, as the second most important book of his Thelema) mentions "my mother Nuit". (Source: Babalon From Thelemapedia - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Babalon ). And the "daugter of Babalon", and the granddaughter of Nuit, who is also the "... the Daughter of the King.", is "... she that is set upon the Throne of Understanding [ = Binah]." According to the 9th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice. (Source: Babalon From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babalon )

RHK correlates to correlates to the Supernal emanation Chokhmah (= Wisdom), through a synonym for Wisdom, namely perception. As perception is defined as "... [*] the sensory experience of the world. It involves both recognizing environmental stimuli and actions in response to these stimuli." (Source: "What Is Perception? By Kendra Cherry[.] Medically reviewed by Steven Gans, MD Updated on July 09, 2020" - - - https://www.verywellmind.com/perception-and-the-perceptual-process-2795839 ) A definition that perfectly fits how RHK, "... as a model for the initiate ..." (Source: Heru-ra-ha From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heru-ra-ha ), is self defined in A.C.'s The Book of the Law (III:17.): "...  I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms." 

 

[*] ("Additional senses & variations

There are more-subtle senses that most people never really perceive. For example, there are neuron sensors that sense movement to control balance and the tilt of the head. Specific kinesthetic receptors exist for detecting stretching in muscles and tendons, helping people to keep track of their limbs. Other receptors detect levels of oxygen in certain arteries of the bloodstream.

Sometimes, people don't even perceive senses the same way. People with synesthesia can see sounds as colors or associate certain sights with smells, for example."

( Source: The Five (and More) Senses[.] By Alina Bradford - Live Science Contributor  - - - https://www.livescience.com/60752-human-senses.html ) )


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wellreadwellbred
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Being attributed to "... EIN-SOF (Heb. אֵין סוֹף; "The Infinite," lit. that which is boundless) ..." ( Source: "Jewish Virtual Library [-] a project of AICE[:] Emanation" - - - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/emanation ), Nuit is so to speak not only our "refuge" as stated in A.C.'s The Book of the Law (III:17.), but also the "refuge" of the entire Qabalistic Tree of Life. As Nuit correlates to "The Infinite" from which the entire said Tree sprouts. 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

I agree with this, except for the "below" part. Yes, one can "go down" in the subconscious/astral real and find caverns filled with alien dragons and vicious trolls.

But we actually start out in the densest realm (hard matter, mostly silicon- and carbon-based).

Good point! Yes of course, I use the word "up and down" only as metaphors to describe areas of our minds that can, in duality, either appeal to us in some expansive sense or repel us in some other sense (which I find by the way Liber al Vel Legis an excellent exercise for highlighting this dynamic in the dualistic mind.) As we progress, we eventually learn to become mediators between these two distinct dynamics.

But, then down can simply refer to what our feet are touching, and up nothing but the expansive sky, see? I can still be a sucker for those lovely dualistic prosaic phrasings.

Duality is a very seductive thing 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

Right on. The problem with duality is that the separated individual is only one part (one-half) of the dualism.

One half or...one third?

🙂

Posted by: @shiva

I was fortunate in that I had no children to feed or to bail out of jail.

Mine saved my life, I would not have been able to complete the work without him. Oddly, I also would not have been able to pay rent without him, or earn any type of a respectable living, or even balance a check book.

Sometimes the ordeals are given in strange ways.

 

I was under the impression that you have only served approximately one-half of a lifetime.

ah-ha! I meant lifetime as in "time served so far"

One half a lifetime, or one third? hehe

Posted by: @shiva

Scary? Troublemaker? The source of evil and discontent? Weird? Strange? Insane? Stupid?

I get "troublemaker" and "weird, strange" quite often I am extremely proud to say 🙂

Sheesh, I just got myself in trouble writing that, doh!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

And A.C. referred to at type of atheist, which basically believes in God but not as something separate from oneself.

Thank God I am an Atheist. (my favorite Crowley quote of all time.)

If you do not mind me adding, this is not only how divinity (in any form) is viewed, as only existing as part of oneself, but also everything in creation and most importantly, you and me and everyone in this conversation right now.

"Let there be no difference..."

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Here's the deal in a box: These Chapters and Players have names, qualities, and goals. These are all concepts. Concepts, names, goals, and fish are all rational-mind ideas. Such things do not exist above the Abyss. They are mental.

Very well put!

Posted by: @shiva

Along these same lines, I have a situation with the Supernals. We are told that Kether is One and he/she/it is White. Then we are told that the One (being None because there's nobody to see it) splits into two (0=2) which are black and white. But white is already white, so we settle for gray (Chokmah) and Black (Binah).

hmmm, 0=2

one half or one third?

I think you are raising some excellent mind shattering issues here sir!

I would like to see the word "silver" replace all usages of the word "gray".

I would also like to be able to tell a story to the rational mind using the colors.

Keter as White, "white" representing the "absorption" of all colors is a very Keter friendly theme, Silver is the union of black and white as "opposites" as in the view that the mage will view and work with them, and "black" as Binah stands as the mirror to Keter, black as "perfectly opposite to white", as in "Yin is close to Tao" and "The divine feminine principle" is "close to God" wisdoms from traditions east and west.

Posted by: @shiva

I would like to see Binah as Black, Chokmah as White, and Kether as Clear. You've heard of The Clear Light? But I suppose I won;t get very far, what with the stubborn attitude of some ("It doesn't say so in 777!") and the lack of motivation to push my point, this may be the only place that this configuration will ever appear ... before it disappears into the archives of forgetfulness.

This also works! It tells a different story about the opposites, a different way to work with them.

Although, in the teachings of the clear light in the Vajrayana school, the clear light isn't "clear" like the air on a clear day, it is "clear" as if a transparency, like looking through a diamond, there is no shadow, everything casts its own source of light.

"Thou has all in the clear light (Keter, the absorption of all), and some, but not all, in the dark." (Binah, the only reflection or image we will ever see of the "all" in Keter in duality. Binah is the reflection of the clear light Below the abyss, where those forms of Binah appear real.

I found the colors are just there to help tell a story, discover an arc or two, and like chakras, can be used and created in different ways.

All three of the supernals are in the clear light, not just Keter.

There is no way to separate them, just like we never get a "pure yin" and a "pure yang" in Taoism.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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