Crowley and his dis...
 
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Crowley and his discrepancies

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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

But be of good cheer, for you (anyone who got this far) can claim you have seen secret data.

lol, dude I love you

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

 

This is if you don't think LSD is the war-engine. Could be both of course.

______________________

*Channeling a certain said person.

I dont know how this slipped by me. Do you mean Leary? Interesting, because he also heralded in the internet and computer technology

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

Are you interested in Nostradamus at all?

zero.

I hope we are not having two different conversations over the same word, prediction.

I am not using "prediction" in the psychic sense, as in the book is "foretelling the future"

I am using the word prediction as in the empirical sense, as in, "can I make a prediction with what I think I know, and will that prediction come true?" For example, I shall make a fairly accurate prediction for the next million years the sun will appear to rise in the east and fall in the west.

Posted by: @dom

Anyway I found a tenuous link.  The 40s and 80s are shown to be directly and specifically related in AL so there's a gestalt -jump thing going on there (although Shiva and Ignant666 will try to argue this away).  War = intensified advances made in technology, it always has.  For example the recent ridiculously fast discovery/production of the pfizer vaccine in the present war against coronavirus. 

So you prefer to take the literal approach, that the language of "war" in Liber al Vel Legis actually refers to "war" is it is used in the historical battle sense? Okay, fine. 

However, we can also choose to view this as twilight language, where "war" and "battle or conquest" are references to states of mind, specifically how they will play out over the era covered in Liber al Vel Legis.

Posted by: @dom

You won't find any direct reference to booting up P.C.s and laptops and/or installing 5G towers in  Liber Pennae Praenumbra though but why should holy books make meticulous predictions about future techno advancements anyway?  I don't recall any reference to Edison's light-bulbs in the Gospel of Luke.  

Its not predicting what the technologies will be, that is up to the "children" of the new aeon to create and design.

What Chp3 is describing are historical psychological forces that DO play out in history and will continue to play out in history UNTIL resolution (Maat)

And if it is describing those forces as they can be predicted to play out, said new technologies will emerge which will express those forces.

They have, no?

I view Liber al Vel Legis like any "magical" tantra or terma throughout history, it is a work designed to get us thinking different, coming up with incredible civilization building ideas and projects.

Just like the original Rosicrucian document actually "faked" a historical secret society so as to create a real one.

Just like Leary explained Sci Fi as the new tantras for the future worlds we will create and design.

So, we dont see Liber Al vel Legis doing anything other than getting a bunch of creative types thinking, especially science fiction authors like Tim Leary, Arthur C Clark and Robert Heinlein, who inspired the guy who made Star Trek, which inspired the creation of flat screen TV's and smart phones.

I can't wait until we get to teleportation, hehe

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
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The person i was "channeling" was our good friend wrwb, who refers to everything as "said" this, that, and the other.

The idea that LSD is the "war-engine" is, like the idea that the internet is it, i believe, original to me, though not very "original" as in hard to guess i admit.

As far as i know, Dr Tim never made this identification despite being sometimes convinced he was AC's reincarnation, or carrying out his work, or both.

I just read Art Kleps' very interesting Millbrook, and Leary's identification with AC is a reason Kleps mentions that caused him to think Dr Tim was a superstitious idiot, in 1963-8. So Leary was into AC from the beginning.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

there's a gestalt -jump thing going on there (although Shiva and Ignant666 will try to argue this away). 

Is this a prediction or a condescension? How can I argue about a premise that is so unclear that I cannot figure out what you are saying. Maybe Ignant, whose pencil-mind is sharper than my blunt point, will interpret the charge and resolve the dilemma.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

i tried to get him to realize a certain inarticulate essence...he hung up the phone...

How rude of him. The Ains are even more troublesome than the supernals when it comes time to define, explain, or even grasp (in one's mind). What can we say? Nothing, that's what. No, don't say "Nothing," just don't say anything at all.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I use the word "up and down" only as metaphors to describe areas of our minds

Right. However, your term "down" is fairly universal. This is because one might be traveling up on the Tree, or the Planes, or the Spectrum of Frequencies, but it is perceived by the traveler as down-going. So, right at the beginning (the first astral concepts), we confront the first paradox (contra-perceived ups and downs). Our salvation from this "suffering" of dyslectic vertical orientation is found in the concept that we really don't go anywhere at all (up or down). When we stop to check our real position, we're right there where we started.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

One half or...one third?

One-half of a Duality makes two parts. One third of a triplicity is another matter, which is used when we chop things into three parts.

We can make a case for any number (4, 7, et al), what with all of them being infinite. But, in the end, it comes down to two at the critical point: One versus Nothing. Me versus the Infinite.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

This reminds me of a friend who once challenged me to define Ain Soph....I drew a blank.......while under his growing pressure a 'dictionary' definition did not come to the fore, or a quip like 'on beyond zero' he started to get frustrated with me, and I realized that there really was no use trying, and though i tried to get him to realize a certain inarticulate essence...he hung up the phone...

 

This is where I found Liber al Vel Legis, for me personally, to be the most earth shattering, for this is what I believe Liber al Vel Legis does with excellence and elegance, teach us ways to work with what you are referencing as Ain Soph but through language.

Since language naturally contains and implies "duality", the document reveals some rather magickal viewpoints.

Liber al shows many perspectives on Ain Soph, which is central to ALL of the work of the mage and unless this is grasped, it all falls apart into delusion.

I am going to share this because, omg im having feelies, in the sense what a treasure it is to find all of you and be able to share this!

Who can understand this stuff?

I haven't been able to share any of this with anyone, for almost 20 years! Only you nutjobs. Thank you, this helps me process all of this, work it through with others.

What Leary taught me is true! If something cannot be brought into the meaningful exchange with others its all bullshit. I am learning so much in these conversations. Precious!

Through twilight language, we arrive at an interpretive narrative that teaches us many different perspectives of Ain Soph and how to work with it, three "dynamic" states of being, one for each chapter.

 

Chapter 1

Nuit tells us what the "secret key" to understanding Liber al Vel Legis is.

"Nothing is a secret key of this law, 61 the jews call it"

She tells us to distinguish the word "nothing", not as "nothing" as defined in the dualistic language "the opposite of something" in the dictionary, but as called "61 one by the Jews."

61 is the language of kabbalah, which provides all major world systems a shared language through base 10 counting as a way of arriving at understanding through the underlying "equanimity" in all world religious/psychological systems, as they all resolve in "61".

Since she "defines her words perfectly", Nuit lets us know right away, for certain, what she means by "nothing", which will eventually teach through learning Kabbalah (so as to understand the verses at all!) another word for this "nothing" as defined by Nuit is, by the Hindu and Buddhist, Sunyata, emptiness–the Eastern concept which also equals, semantically not numerically, to 61.

Sunyata is also the Sanskrit word for "Zero"

This first illumination, indeed the "secret key of it all", is Sunyata, which also is the first peak beyond the veil of the abyss, above duality, Ain Soph, Limitless Light.

Liber al Vel Legis provides adepts and initiates with various tools to work with "Sunyata", the secret key of magick at this moment in history, according to Nuit.

Nuit tells us we will know, with certainty, when she communicates with us because this chapter describes a specific feature of the mind state of the initiate experience Nuit, a mind set of "certainty", not faith, and only with this "certainty" can the work be performed in the highest sense.

This certainty she provides leads us to the transcendence that is zero, sunyata, because this is how she "teases" us to count there, with certainty.

"I am infinite space, and the infinite stars thereof"

"My prophet is a fool with his 1, 1, 1, are they not the Ox, and "none" by the book?"

With certainty, we can count the number of infinite stars, one by one, if we count the stars by the number 3 or 300, it does not matter, and we can never arrive at a final summary of count. All counting is just some variation of 1, 1, 1,

"All numbers are infinite"

On the infinite number line, 0 is the placeholder for this infinite value, a summary for that which has no final summary. 

Nuit tells us to be certain of this! 

Thus, Nuit is simple and easy and dependable way to arrive at Sunyata, as simple as counting 1, 1, 1. She teaches a very simple way to understand "emptiness of self or other", the self can have no definition just as the final sum of all numbers has no number, yet all numbers exist, all are infinite.

Hadit, on the other hand, is not so easy, and Chp 2 and 3 are where the ordeals in understanding are made a bit more "severe" in terms of initiation, piercing the veils, crossing the abyss into Binah, and describe completely unique states to that of Nuit.

Chp 3 presents the most challenging because the state of Chp3 is the union of Chp 1 and Chp 2, meaning that both states are suspending as one state of being, in the here and now.

The mystery of equanimity, Sunyata, is revealed through Nuit. "let there be no difference between any one thing and any other thing..."

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

I just read Art Kleps' very interesting Millbrook, and Leary's identification with AC is a reason Kleps mentions that caused him to think Dr Tim was a superstitious idiot, in 1963-8. So Leary was into AC from the beginning.

Thanks for putting this on my radar! Apparently Art Kleps didnt view the myth of Leary through twilight language, hehe 🙂 

Millbrook is my favorite story from those years, what a meeting of the minds, something we also have here and there and everywhere thanks to RHK the internet god hehe

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
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You can get it from amazon.

Kleps revised Millbrook several times, so it is possible that the condemnations of Dr Tim re Crowley fandom in the current edition are so to speak back dated. i always thought Tim's interest in AC dated from the early '70s.

According to a recently deceased pal who was the Primate of Colorado under Kleps in the Neo-American Church, Kleps was a "raving right-wing nut" at the end of his life. My late pal was himself pretty darn right-wing and nutty, so Kleps must have gone off the super-deep end.

Here is the Neo-American church website:

http://okneoac.org/

The same Primate was also in touch with Owsley towards the end of his life. When he died in 2011, Owsley had not eaten a vegetable or fruit since the late '60s, when he went on the all-meat diet that he maintained until the end.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

One-half of a Duality makes two parts. One third of a triplicity is another matter, which is used when we chop things into three parts.

We can make a case for any number (4, 7, et al), what with all of them being infinite. But, in the end, it comes down to two at the critical point: One versus Nothing. Me versus the Infinite.

one half of a duality that doesn't exist is actually zero.

one half of zero is zero. actually there are no parts.

the number 2, sure, is symbolic of two things, and a duality implies at least this thing and that thing to appear real, and appear therefore true, but if we wish to minus 50% from 0 and we want to arrive at a counting number, how should we count, by the illusion of 2 or by the actual count? Nuit allows us to apply the certainty of simply maths, not abstract kabbalahs, to understand her, make it simple.

0=1,1 is using three numbers to express the actual count, which is perfectly identical mathematically in expression to 0=2

0=2 is the symbolic count, not the actual mathematical count of 1,1 in an infinite universe

This is a very very very important and very subtle distinction, revealed with simplicity, by Nuit when she says "Divide, add, multiply, and understand" (Note:, she never says "subtract", divide, multiply and understand)

The mathematical answer to her riddle is 0.12, the actual number of the self using her system but whose counting? The self, 0=2 is the symbolic count of the self, two in duality, not the actual account because there is you, there is me, and then there is you/me. 

3 is the magick number of duality, not two 🙂

And it takes integrating all three chapters to get that, so that all disappear with a left hand empty kinda thing.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Who can understand this stuff?

V.V.V.V.V. and other dreadful Masters of the Temples.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

one half of a duality that doesn't exist is actually zero.

But now you are sinning, confusing the planes. It is always necessary to qualify the level to which one refers. Yeah, in a state of dhyana or samadi or rigpa (etc), the duality doesn't exist. Down here, in the RHK Inter-network, I am me and you are you, and bricks dropping out of the external world will hurt us and judges can put us in jail for heresy.

We can't apply this non-dual stuff in daily life as a concept or a saying ... we can only be it (in silence).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

one half of zero is zero. actually there are no parts.

You have now left me right behind.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

V.V.V.V.V. and other dreadful Masters of the Temples.

 

Maybe making it appear so daunting is nothing more than the glamour of the magician, giving the illusion that his accomplishment was an extraordinary feat of skill, making the ordeal severe but perhaps the insight itself is far more simple?

Posted by: @shiva

But now you are sinning, confusing the planes. It is always necessary to qualify the level to which one refers.

I am referring to the three supernals above the abyss as distinct in model from those spheres below the abyss, and apparently getting myself in trouble, again hehe

Posted by: @shiva

Yeah, in a state of dhyana or samadi or rigpa (etc), the duality doesn't exist. Down here, in the RHK Inter-network, I am me and you are you, and bricks dropping out of the external world will hurt us and judges can put us in jail for heresy.

Maybe that was true in the old aeon, but maybe "duality" itself has a unique view from the POV of the supernals?

Consider;

Duality does not really actually exist here in "duality" as you described it either, Nuit shows us this.

Does the duality really "disappear" when we reach higher states, as in "Wow, I am such a progressive human being, obtaining Dhyana and thus being an enlightened non-racist I don't see skin color anymore!"?,  or is "duality" itself, once transcended in the supernals, actually become the tools of the mage, something to work with?

This is important! It really is! Because above the abyss, the view of duality shows the service of duality to the self.

Below the abyss, with moderate spiritual insight, we begin to view duality through the view of duality itself, thinking it is something to avoid, and that there is duality and non duality, with non duality being the preferred path. This is not the higher view! The higher view would transcend all duality the mind can continually create, and thus the higher view is both dual and non dual, therefore 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

We can't apply this non-dual stuff in daily life as a concept or a saying ... we can only be it (in silence).

Yes we absolutely can! 100%, in a very simple way, completely rational while allowing the direct experience in silence (self-empty) we can apply the wisdom in application with each other.

Liber al Vel Legis is an initiation ritual into non dual civilization building 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

You have now left me right behind.

 

Not really, you already get it I am just highlighting it in a simple way that I learned from Liber Al.

Consider Aikido as a form of "non dual" martial art as a perfect example and which you are a master in. That is one of the best examples of bringing non duality into real world problem solving.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

You have now left me right behind.

 

Whenever we get lost, Nuit gives us an extremely simple tool to regain our emptiness with certainty, simply by counting 1, 1, 1...

She makes for a good refuge, no?

🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Three exalted states of being, three chapters of the book of the law, each chapter is a tantra exercise one chapter for each of the "three veils of negative existence" or three veils of sunyata, emptiness, nothingness.

Three states of being, three revelations in Liber al Vel Legis

Chapter 1. The self is 0=1,1

The actual revelation, sunyata, emptiness

Chapter 2 . The self is 0=2

The symbolic revelation, the emptiness of self

Chapter 3. Ourselves = 012

The historical revelation, the emptiness of self and other

This is only useful if anyone is interested in actually practicing magick, however if one just wants to obtain a higher state of consciousness, 0=2 will suffice 🙂

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am referring to the three supernals above the abyss

I am aware of the Dzogchen symol wherein three fuse into one ... a symbol of mere duality would not be appropriate.

image

Yes, the supernals work together to produce a single concept (which has three lines) ...

image

It becomes visible to our mind. It is situated at Da'ath. It twinkles and we call it heaven.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

as distinct in model from those spheres below the abyss, and apparently getting myself in trouble, again hehe

No trouble. The supernals have no form, even though we put names, colors, and qualities on them. The lessernals (subnals?) (4 through 10, please) all do quite well with color, form, names, addresses.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Does the duality really "disappear" when we reach higher states, as in "Wow, I am such a progressive human being, obtaining Dhyana and thus being an enlightened ...?

No. It only disappears while one is in the dhyana chamber. When one "comes back" to their (mundane) self, the fucking ego will step in and take credit for the whole non-ego show, which it decides it created.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

we can apply the wisdom in application with each other.

Agreed. Except "we" don;t apply the wisdom as a technique. It simply is. It is in silence and when articulating. It is automatic.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Consider Aikido as a form of "non dual" martial art as a perfect example

Okay.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

and which you are a master in.

"Almost a Master!" That was Nishiyama's definition of a brown belt. My "mastery" was conferred in Karate, which is linear and collision-prone ("the only sin in the universe").

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

That is one of the best examples of bringing non duality into real world problem solving.

Agreed.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

am aware of the Dzogchen symol wherein three fuse into one ... a symbol of mere duality would not be appropriate.

So my question has been...for more than 15 years, how much did Crowley know and joke and hint and tease about and how much is just the "syncro-mysticism" of the media? 

It is not possible for Crowley to have been aware of Dzokden tantras at the time, these were not released into the world until decades later through the decree of the Dalai Lama and the invasion of Tibet by China.

Gerald Yorke was representative to not just the bibliography of AC, but he was also the representative in the west to the Dalai Lama!

Yet without the Dzokden "insight", the third stage or final stage of the entire tantric process, the "completion" stage cannot happen or occur within duality, however, a part of the paradox is that 3 in 1 is how magick works! Without this insight or understanding, there is no magick, only delusion.

Nuit tells us the key of it all in the plainest of language, in a way we can see it recapitulate throughout the whole book.

RHK tells us

 

This book shall be translated into all tongues: but always with the original in the writing of the Beast; for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine. Let him not seek to try: but one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of it all. 

So then Crowley says "Hey! The child is George Stansfield Jones! He discovered the key, the number is 31. 31! 3 in 1.

Did they know that was Dzokden "key" to complete magick initiation?

Impossible.

Sometimes I wonder, who the real "secret chiefs" of the AA are, and perhaps its Yorke, Jones, Bennet and Oscar Eckenstein, and that real life Aiwass fella that helped Crowley find the numerical value of the beast...those guys, very suspicious!

and they just needed the right showman for the job and it was Crowley.

Totally not true, maybe.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Yet without the Dzokden "insight", the third stage or final stage of the entire tantric process, the "completion" stage cannot happen or occur within duality

Some folks have completed the A.'.A.'. curriculum before they ever heard the word Dzogchen (the word of many spellings in English - I especially like the rDogschen formula). Crowley shows no signs of knowing or incorporating Tibetan stuff. But he got into Taoism well enough and he paid it due regard.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

So then Crowley says "Hey! The child is George Stansfield Jones! He discovered the key, the number is 31. 31! 3 in 1.

This is correct, except for the last "conclusion." 31 is not 3 in 1, unless you want to view it that way as you do, because you're on a 3:1 mission, but it seems a leap in logic.

Well, of course it's a leap over logic. So are you offering a quantum solution? As I stated, We can take any number and make it into the key. Where is the practical value (even if it's abstract) that makes 3=1 (or 3=0) more beneficial in relation to, say, 2=0, or 4=1=0, or 1=7?

The "three treasures" of Oriental Medicine run parallel to your theorem, so I am not opposed to any triple concepts. In O.M., the treasures are Jing, Chi, and Shen. Jing is essence (essence of substance), Chi is energy, and Shen is Spirit (consciousness). 

The interesting part is where these three forces (which are treatable in the physical sense when they get unbalanced) have a "before heaven" source. That is, there are the concepts of Yuan Jing (source substance), Yuan Chi (source energy), and Yuan Shen (source consciousness). These are "before heaven" (Xian Tian) because they are "above" the three yang lines of "heaven" (found at Da'ath), and in our terms, they are above the abyss.

They are reflected into our cognitive reality as the three treasures, each one of which is required to manifest a human bein, or a dog - I don't know how far we must go "down" the foodline until we get to anything without this triune configuration ... maybe it goes all the way down to compressed carbon (diamonds).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Did they know that was Dzokden "key" to complete magick initiation? Impossible.

I believe we can find the 3:1 principle described throughout the western literature. The Romans have this thing about the Trinity (not the bomb test), and the Hindus have their Triumvirate. But you are correct in that they seem to have bypassed Tibet - no wonder, it's fairly remote, you know.

But the Dzogchen teachings themselve proclaim that this 3:0 formula is found at the heart of all systems, because all systems have been built up from the zero of primordial consciousness through a trinity to whatever they are today,

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Sometimes I wonder, who the real "secret chiefs" of the AA are ...

It's fair enough to wonder about that out loud in an AC Discrepancy thread; heaven knows, and so do the dwarfs, that Crowley was among the foremost who posited these fellows, and then made multiple references to them over several decades, usually in paradoxical lingo, but maybe that's good for a whole retread thread of itself. Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

and they just needed the right showman for the job and it was Crowley.

That was Crowley's excuse ("Why the Secret Chiefs chose me ... because of my superior writing ability").

On the other hand (either the right or the left), maybe Aleister simply had powerful endurance genes (Perdurabo) with a lusty temperament (X*, XI*), along with an interest in infiltrating spiritual and masonic societies in order to promote a New World Religion (or such) with him as the supreme dictator.

This explanation corresponds to your notation ...

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Totally not true, maybe.

Somwhere in-between the choosing of a divine avatar and plain old dharana-ambition, that's where the truth will be found.

But why not both?


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

But why not both?

That's the secret of non-dual duality, why magick cannot work without it 🙂

There is love, and there is love, why choose love over love, or this love rather than that love when both the serpent and the dove are love and love.

+1 is always the numbers of the system PLUS the whole system

The system of duality is two (yin and Yang) plus 1 for the whole system (tao or wu, both yin and yang indistinguishable) making 3

The system of the elements is four, plus 1 for the whole system (Making 5, adding spirit or space, depending on the system)

The system of the chakras are 7, plus 1 for the whole system (note leary's 8 brain model, with 3 levels of each circuit)

(357 is a very very masonic number, which I believe is also communicating this whole system logic)

Posted by: @shiva

This is correct, except for the last "conclusion." 31 is not 3 in 1, unless you want to view it that way as you do, because you're on a 3:1 mission, but it seems a leap in logic.

 

All I promise you are leaps over logic, none of this is thought all, all pure natural discovery. yet it maintains consistency and resolves all contradictions.

Also, I am not on a 3 is 1 mission, I am on a 0,1,2 mission 🙂

 

Posted by: @shiva

The "three treasures" of Oriental Medicine run parallel to your theorem, so I am not opposed to any triple concepts. In O.M., the treasures are Jing, Chi, and Shen. Jing is essence (essence of substance), Chi is energy, and Shen is Spirit (consciousness). 

 

That's actually where I got my start with all this, the alchemy of nei kung. This is the language the body also understands! 

Vajrayana takes that to many levels, the Trikaya.

Mind/Body/Speech is one manifestation.

this ternary pattern recapitulates through all systems, and all over the book of the law

Hermes TRISmegretus (3x great)

Nuit, Hadit, RHK

You know you have a key when the door opens, not just one, but many 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

As I stated, We can take any number and make it into the key. Where is the practical value (even if it's abstract) that makes 3=1 (or 3=0) more beneficial in relation to, say, 2=0, or 4=1=0, or 1=7?

Sure, you can use any number to find any key, but only one key opens four gates at once 🙂

Only two numbers are needed for night and day, and 3 to include sunset/sunrise both night and day, at once.

So are you offering a quantum solution?

that is already imbedded into the ternary structure, note that the type of logic in quantum mechanics is called an "unbalanced ternary logic", using the digits 0, 1, and 2 

Dude, we did good work in this convo!

I am now going to go to sleep, and I hope you get a good nights rest, amazing work today, we should go on the road, do a show hehe

 

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

I don't know how far we must go "down" the foodline until we get to anything without this triune configuration

We only get nothing without it 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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wellreadwellbred
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[Underlining(-s) added by me to quoted text:]

 

hadgigegenraum [ 10/05/2021 12:22 pm ]: "... a friend [...] once challenged me to define Ain Soph....I drew a blank.......while under his growing pressure a 'dictionary' definition did not come to the fore, or a quip like 'on beyond zero' he started to get frustrated with me, and I realized that there really was no use trying, and though i tried to get him to realize a certain inarticulate essence...he hung up the phone... "

Shiva: [10/05/2021 6:56 pm]: "How rude of him. The Ains are even more troublesome than the supernals when it comes time to define, explain, or even grasp (in one's mind). What can we say? Nothing, that's what. No, don't say "Nothing," just don't say anything at all."

 

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 7:03 pm]: "This is where I found Liber al Vel Legis, for me personally, to be the most earth shattering, for this is what I believe Liber al Vel Legis does with excellence and elegance, teach us ways to work with what you are referencing as Ain Soph but through language. [...]

Nuit tells us we will know, with certainty, when she communicates with us because this chapter describes a specific feature of the mind state of the initiate experience[-ing] Nuit, a mind set of "certainty", not faith, and only with this "certainty" can the work be performed in the highest sense."

As already stated by me on page 11 in this thread:
"Being attributed to "... EIN-SOF (Heb. אֵין סוֹף; "The Infinite," lit. that which is boundless) ..." ( Source: "Jewish Virtual Library [-] a project of AICE[:] Emanation" - - - ), Nuit is so to speak not only our "refuge" as stated in A.C.'s The Book of the Law (III:17.), but also the "refuge" of the entire Qabalistic Tree of Life. As Nuit correlates to "The Infinite" from which the entire said Tree sprouts."
(Source: 'Crowley and his discrepancies', page 11 - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/116640/ )"

Representing what the entire Qabalistic Tree of Life sprouts from, "Nuit" is beyond the whole concept of "creation", and beyond even the supernal triad of the tree of life, being in "the most high".

sangewanchuck56 [ 10/05/2021 9:05 pm ]: "Below the abyss, with moderate spiritual insight, we begin to view duality through the view of duality itself, thinking it is something to avoid, and that there is duality and non duality, with non duality being the preferred path. This is not the higher view! The higher view would transcend all duality the mind can continually create, ...".

 

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 7:03 pm]: "... The mystery of equanimity, Sunyata, is revealed through Nuit. "let there be no difference between any one thing and any other thing..." "

 

From this can be derived that the "The higher view [...] transcend[-ing] all duality the mind can continually create ...", is to directly "Turn on, tune in, drop out" into the equanimity revealed through "Nuit", in its primary state, beyond the entire Qabalistic Tree of Life.

I understand said equanimity to correlate closely with the following statements from you sangewanchuck56:

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 7:03 pm]: "Nuit tells us we will know, with certainty, when she communicates with us because this chapter describes a specific feature of the mind state of the initiate experience[-ing] Nuit, a mind set of "certainty", not faith, and only with this "certainty" can the work be performed in the highest sense."

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 9:05 pm]: "... while allowing the direct experience in silence (self-empty) we can ("... in a very simple way, completely rational ...") apply the wisdom in application with each other. Liber al Vel Legis [= A.C.'s The Book of the Law] is an initiation ritual into non dual civilization building ...".

And I envision such equanimity ( = "a calm mental state, especially after a shock or disappointment or in a difficult situation:" (Source: "Meaning of equanimity in English equanimity noun [ U ] formal" - - - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/equanimity ), as being the most common mental state among all children of a future age.


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hadgigegenraum
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"Time Out"

A "Time Out" has been called on the field, Orson Wells has gone to bed....

And thus here in the 'New Aeon" the endless discussions about -how many devils can be packed into a Trinity- has reached its apex....nothing new over the sun or under it...as though the question were:

For what if a toilet flushed in the desert and no one was there to hear it? (Answer: Crowley and Nueberg)

Well I suppose if I really were to try I can hear that sixty one sounds like sunyata in Hebrew.? is this the key to Daath!

Four did I hear a for...(and now the bidding has gone higher) but thank god the local tetra WBWR has done a recap and hopefully all is sweet dreams..... as some book called Liber al Vel Legis (never heard of that book, but I think I know that is being referred to) has been distilled down to a certain essence or rather lack of personality if one thinks that it all comes down to EQUANIMITY

I do know that there are some that think that the First Chapter was actually the last chapter, in order of composition, but frankly if it is just  a matter of EQUANIMITY, then the hidden beast in that word ain't so happy about being so defined or caged in Nimity....Time for war, pull out the sword bitch!

Why equanimity seems like chorus heard from  "all the lonely pronouns" in line for the jab in service of  Great Re SET: "you will own nothing and be happy"  

Building civilization while burning churches!

Good Morning Vietnam!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

A "Time Out" has been called on the field, Orson Wells has gone to bed....

And up...but to work. Sheesh the things I coulda got done yesterday that were pushed aside for this convo 🙂

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

And thus here in the 'New Aeon" the endless discussions about -how many devils can be packed into a Trinity- has reached its apex....nothing new over the sun or under it...as though the question were:

No new aeons either ? A contradiction, hehe

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Time for war, pull out the sword bitch!

 

Manjushri, bring it:)

all wars, like all contradictions, resolve in 3, begin in 2 🙂

The ternary system allows the mind to resolve contradictions

The cause of all contradictions, all suffering, is duality (two)

Above the abyss, all contradictions are resolved with the three supernals

Above the three supernals, are the three veils of Sunyata, the absolute reality

Very non controversial

Since magick is the art of causing change, specifically "transmutation"

The ternary form is the methodology for transmuting suffering (duality) into joy.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

And I envision such equanimity ( = "a calm mental state, especially after a shock or disappointment or in a difficult situation:" (Source: "Meaning of equanimity in English equanimity noun [ U ] formal" - - - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/equanimity ), as being the most common mental state among all children of a future age.

Equanimity, as defined in Buddhism, is "emptiness" (0), in the sense we all share this in common, none of us exist in the sense the mind can make sense of, it can only create "provisional" truths. 

Edit: This is what is now called "oneness" which to me is very funny because oneness is NOT a number!

In Liber Al Vel Legis, what I "read" is Nuit is extending the equanimity of Buddhism to show how equanimity can be written, expressed, and even exchanged between all of us, even in a practical way, for the equanimity is also three fold 0 (the absorption of all, nothing, empty, RHK), 1 (the actual reality, Nuit) 2 (the symbolic reality, Hadit)

Nuit tells us that even though there are many systems (let them not know well one another!) the underlying equanimity is the same in both emptiness and how we experience reality in duality for all of us, every man and every woman.

That is what is so beautiful about Nuit, she wants to make things very very very easy to do!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Good Morning Vietnam!

And a good morn to you, Communist China!

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

From this can be derived that the "The higher view [...] transcend[-ing] all duality the mind can continually create ...", is to directly "Turn on, tune in, drop out" into the equanimity revealed through "Nuit", in its primary state, beyond the entire Qabalistic Tree of Life.

I really like what you did there!

Also, I am still getting familiar with your writing and communication and I quite like how you relate various topics of the thread from different viewpoints, and then synthesize, quite nice! very creative yet formal.

Too challenging for me to put into words at the moment but what you are doing is actually extremely timely in this conversation right now, it is very "Liber al vel legis-ish" 🙂

 

And I envision such equanimity ... as being the most common mental state among all children of a future age.

Also I forgot to say, thank you for your great work 🙂

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

I understand said equanimity to correlate closely with the following statements from you sangewanchuck56:

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 7:03 pm]: "Nuit tells us we will know, with certainty, when she communicates with us because this chapter describes a specific feature of the mind state of the initiate experience[-ing] Nuit, a mind set of "certainty", not faith, and only with this "certainty" can the work be performed in the highest sense."

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 9:05 pm]: "... while allowing the direct experience in silence (self-empty) we can ("... in a very simple way, completely rational ...") apply the wisdom in application with each other. Liber al Vel Legis [= A.C.'s The Book of the Law] is an initiation ritual into non dual civilization building ...".

And I envision such equanimity ( = "a calm mental state, especially after a shock or disappointment or in a difficult situation:" (Source: "Meaning of equanimity in English equanimity noun [ U ] formal" - - - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/equanimity ), as being the most common mental state among all children of a future age.

I am sorry I am getting to this in piecemeal but it was a lot to consider and my time was a bit sanctioned earlier.

The state of being referred to as "emptiness", "sunyata" is the experience of the clear light. The Himalayan tantras teach this experience is available to every single one of us when we orgasm, die, and, believe it or not, sneeze.

The minds ability to stay in this state of the clear light is like a muscle, very weak at first, so the clear light experience can pass after a second.

Any tantric practice (including the practices I believe embedded in Liber Al) is essentially training that muscle in the mind to experience the clear light longer and longer, but more importantly identify it when it comes. A buddha abides in the clear light 24/7

So there are layers, it is not like a switch, that turns on or off, but degrees. This state of pure "equanimity", referred to as "the non-dual" state, has an expression, a "trail" that it overlays duality, or the world we are working in right now, and this expression extends itself into language, so Nuit teaches us how to use language, writing, even theater, to also identify this non dual state so we can transcend the language of the non dual state.

The only way to do this is with each other.

"Thou hast all in the clear light, and some, but not all, in the dark"

The type of magick, or tantra that Liber al teaches initiates to do requires the non dual state of sunyata to be mastered. Passing through the abyss, the first step above duality, is where this party begins.

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

"Thou hast all in the clear light, and some, but not all, in the dark"

Bingo! The hidden Tibetan connection. Sure, it's "connected" by simple words ... but there it is.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Passing through the abyss, the first step above duality, is where this party begins.

"Now you are a black belt. Now you begin to learn." Did you know that in the Arcane tradition that a Magister Templi is merely a Probationer in the next higher reflection of the hologram, known as The Great White Lodge of Sirius? (this is where you go to search for the real secret chiefs)


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Did you know that in the Arcane tradition that a Magister Templi is merely a Probationer in the next higher reflection of the hologram, known as The Great White Lodge of Sirius?

Here is where I have no wisdom, please share!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

please share!

Well, lookit, inna hologram (that has been fragmented), each fragment will project the totality of the original (the biggest one) when polarized light is shone through it.

So we have these different hierarchies, or curricula, or systems, and they are reflections of the big one, but they are not equal (when manifested in the outer world).

Starting at the mundane level, we find the Oriental Temple-ars divided into 9 degrees. (Forget the X*, XI*, and the so-called XII* [OHO], as they are political/honorary in nature)

Next, rising on the planes, the A.'.A.'. offers 9 degrees, with a 10th that is so mysterious that even its holder cannot reveal it.

Now both systems are direct reflections of the Tree, but they are not equal. Oh, in Solar Lodge I arranged for them to be equal and it worked out well (as an Outer Order, up to Dominus, but it didn't have the capacity [virtue] to hold a 5*/5=6 ceremony together, but that's another story).

Two examples: The first three Roman Numeral degrees represent Malkuth. Same tent for all three. Birth, Life, Death. This series is equal to the three chambers of the Pyramid in Liber Pyramidos (the true one), which is the (self-initiated) Neophyte 1=10 ceremony. This continues with the 4*, which represents the World after Death, which is identical to Passing Through the Tuat, which is the Zelator 2=9 ceremony.

Leaping up, the IX* is on a par with the Major Adept 6=5.

A third reference, even though I promised two, but must include a third or be expelled from the 012 3:0 club, is that A Supreme and Most Holy King, the Grand Master X* of some vast domain, usually formed around a Babble, er, Language Fragment, is equivalent to a 7=4. This puts the OHO at 8=3, which is fitting.

So even though both systems reflect the Tree (standing alone, the OTO can easily be seen as a refection of Chokmah), when their qualities are compared directly, something shifts, because one system is not extended up into that next higher Tree.

Hint: The Kether of any Tree is the Tiphareth of the next bigger Tree in the cosmic hologram. We can thank Achad for that revelation.

I am speaking along similar lines, but not with a fixed Kether/Tiph arrangement. This next bigger hologram sees its 4th degree, same as a Master of the Temple, equivalent to a Probationer in the larger system that is said to be based out there at Sirius (the Silver Star).

The Masonic and OTO system (esoteric masonry) are pretty much Earth-bound, what with the highest degrees being subservient to the supreme dictator, the OTO, who expects dues in advance.

The A.'.A.'. system is more expanded, and it is pretty much Solar-based. You know, RA-Hoor-Khuit.

Then comes The Arcane School (Bailey), that presents an even more expanded version of the 9 degrees. As stated, the 4th degree, equal to 8=3, is a Probationer. A Magus holds the 5th, but this is really just the first degree of the Sirian System. An Ipsissimus is equal to the Arcane "Ray Lord" (Chohan), but he's only holding a certificate to the 2nd degree on Sirius.

The 7th, 8th, 9th degrees are equivalent to the 3 Ains, and Buddhist or Tibetan lingo is used for their titles.

Then we can step up to the next level. It operates out of The Galactic Center. I don't know anything about the Galactic hologram, except it's a Black hole (how perfect) with a neutron-type star radio station called Sagittarius A*.

Sagittarius A* (pronounced "Sagittarius A-Star", abbreviated Sgr A*) is a bright and very compact astronomical radio source at the Galactic Center of the Milky Way. It is located near the border of the constellations Sagittarius and Scorpius, about 5.6° south of the ecliptic.[3] Sagittarius A* is the location of a supermassive black hole,[4][5][6] similar to those at the centers of most, if not all, spiral and elliptical galaxies. -Wikipedia

So the biggest reference points go like this: Earth, Sol, Sirius, Sgr A*.

No matter how we look at it, we (as individuals or pairs, or the whole species) won't have any lasting peace 'til we upgrade our primary reference point to Sgr A* status. Good luck and bon voyage (or at least Bonpo Voyeur).

I only mention this really big hologram in order to keep stretching the point.

I have now rattled on for a lengthy time. Somebody has to keep the threads going, but I planned to keep the monologue short and just post the pic.

It is to be seriously noted that we are most familiar with the grades and standards of the A.'.A.'. , and any equivalencies are only equivalent if the lesser system requires work that is equivalent to the A.'.A.'. Tasks of the Grades. Just having earned, say, the 13th degree in Masonry, does not mean any sort of equivalence to any known A.'.A,'. grade ... because Masonry and OTO do not require self-development work; they require memorization of rites, the reading of recommended books (that they are not "tested" in), and the payment of fees and dues.

image

 


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wellreadwellbred
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hadgigegenraum [11/05/2021 3:01 pm]: "... I do know that there are some that think that the First Chapter was actually the last chapter, in order of composition, but frankly if it is just  a matter of EQUANIMITY, then the hidden beast in that word ain't so happy about being so defined or caged in Nimity....Time for war, pull out the sword bitch!

Why equanimity seems like chorus heard from  "all the lonely pronouns" in line for the jab in service of  Great Re SET: "you will own nothing and be happy"  

Building civilization while burning churches!"

Good Morning Vietnam!" ( Source: 'Crowley and his discrepancies', page 12 - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/116673/ )

 

No, it is not just "... a matter of EQUANIMITY", (mis-)understood as pertaining to that word only in it self. With my use of that word in this thread, I try to convey that it is a core aspect of the attainment of "the first grade in the Third Order", corresponding "... to Binah on the Tree of Life, and to the Secret Chiefs in the old Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn [...]." (Source: A∴A∴ From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4 )

With my use of that word in this thread, I also try to convey what I envision as a core aspect of "... the most common mental state among all children of a future age." That is, a future where it is the  most common situation, even for young children to successfully have done the following:

"Any person whosoever may swear the Oath of the Master of the Temple of A∴A∴ and be admitted into the Opening of the Grade of Magister Templi and the Order of the S∴S∴ the opening of which is the passage through the Abyss." (Source: A∴A∴ From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4 )

 


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wellreadwellbred
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Shiva: "The first three Roman Numeral degrees represent Malkuth."

With respect to the future where it is the most common situation, even for young children to successfully have attained beyond the abyss, to Binah on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, the following is written in The Cry of the 4th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice. (Described by A.C. in chapter 66 of his The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography, as the second most important book of his Thelema.) :

"And an Angel speaks: Behold, this vision is utterly beyond thine understanding. Yet shalt thou endeavour to unite thyself with the dreadful marriage-bed. [...] And this is that which is written: Malkuth[*] shall be uplifted and set upon the throne of Binah11."

[Endnote by Aleister Crowley to The Cry of the 4th Aethyr:] "11. This mystery of the Daughter awakening the eld of the all-Father and thus perpetuating Tetragrammaton is of great importance."

[*]Malkuth means Kingdom. It is the emanation at the base of the Qabalistic Tree of Life, and is associated with the realm of matter/earth and relates to the physical world. ( Source: Malkuth From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - - - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malkuth )


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and so
cycles stir


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hadgigegenraum
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@wellreadwellbred

Thanks for clarifying yourself as regards your use of the word equanimity relative to issues of 'attainment' to which i suppose that we can qualify attainment relative to the word 'spiritual 'and further relative to those 'degrees' of spiritual attainment relative to the modern qabalistic 'Tree of Life' arrangement found in the papers of that order called the "Golden Dawn", to which we can now note that 'equanimity' is a state of being that one attains once on has reached a certain 'higher level' as implied by the "Magister Templi" degree.

Now since this a thread concerning Crowley and his discrepancies, I wonder, did Aleister Crowley attain equilibrium in his life when he claimed the "Magister Templi" degree?

Hopefully this might be answered without wikipedia references, but rather your own thoughts with source material quotes as I know you have such capability.

Of course the question is an open one for all to, weigh in on, including such comments that might say that there is no such thing as a "Magister Templi" or supernal triad, etc.


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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

Of course the question is an open one for all to, weigh in on, including such comments that might say that there is no such thing as a "Magister Templi" or supernal triad, etc.

Well, that is the first thing one realizes when crossing the abyss, there truly are no such things!

Posted by: @shiva

I have now rattled on for a lengthy time. Somebody has to keep the threads going, but I planned to keep the monologue short and just post the pic.

Shiva that is a lot of work you put into that! I am going to have to study this for a bit, in someways what you are introducing (at least to me) in this thread is sorta where my journey is now, now that, at least for me, I have discovered the Himalayan "roots" of this work, I am now intrigued to go backwards again, see how this "leaked out" into the western schools. And I'm really only familiar intimately with Crowley's system. But now I am more intrigued with Blavatsky, and the schools on your chart.

I am aware that "sirius", even Sag A, is "important" in all of this work, but honestly I have kept all that in the background, probably because I want to limit my ability for delusion. But now at this level, I feel I am ready to take the plunge, so to speak.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Now since this a thread concerning Crowley and his discrepancies, I wonder, did Aleister Crowley attain equilibrium in his life when he claimed the "Magister Templi" degree?

This may be a question with no answer. I am just as perplexed by Crowley today as I was when I first learned about him. That may be the "point" of his hagiography, the work of the magick of the AA.

Thou art emphatically my chosen; and blessed are the eyes that thou shalt look upon with gladness. But I will hide thee in a mask of sorrow: they that see thee shall fear thou art fallen: but I lift thee up.

Part of the ordeal of Crowley's system is really the insight that on one hand, you cannot really trust this guy, yet on the other hand, every insight that is meaningful is obtainable through the "journey" of just trying to figure out what this guy is all about.

And I am still super curious...How did Crowley receive the true himalayan system of magick when Tibet was closed off to the world?

Crowley studied Theraveda Buddhism, so his view of Buddhism was not tantric, yet he was a Golden Dawn initiate, which, combined with Theraveda, is all the tools one needs to discover initiatic tantra.

Allan Bennet schooled Crowley in BOTH Buddhism, and Golden Dawn Magick. I am not sure why Crowley is referenced as, at the time, the most advanced Western and Eastern adept of his time, when clearly his mentor was the one who schooled him in both!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Posted by: @shiva

A third reference, even though I promised two, but must include a third or be expelled from the 012 3:0 club,

🤣 🤣 🤣 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

With respect to the future where it is the most common situation, even for young children to successfully have attained beyond the abyss, to Binah on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, the following is written in The Cry of the 4th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice. (Described by A.C. in chapter 66 of his The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography, as the second most important book of his Thelema.) :

I'm sitting with this in my morning contemplation, imagining, what are the "degrees" in which this occur, (not degrees as in degrees of an order, but "in degrees" as opposed to on or off, as in one day it just magically happens or rather it slowly evolves.

Transcending a duality is actually pretty simple at the mundane level, in the sense that we could view "duality" as it plays out in malkuth, manifesting as "black or white" type thinking, popular within orthodoxy. 

In common language, for example, this would mean that when anyone in practical life is given a "yes or no" question or scenario, and they can suspend "yes or no" into a "maybe" ("maybe", semantically speaking, is the perfect absorption of yes and no) in their minds, they are transcending to a certain degree.)

If one works with those who are suffering mentally with "black or white" thinking (politics, hello!) it is no small feat to raise a dualistic psychology to consider a "maybe" when they are griped in a reality where existence is only on or off.

Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto.

Language implies duality, the very fact that a language is used requires the self and other. 

Perhaps this quote from Liber Al is mentioning something that can happen to language when one transcends a duality, they are obtaining an "order and value" that is non dualistic in the expression of the language in a simple manner (independent of any reference to "secret" work of occult tarot, arcane things far removed from practical reality usage)

Right before the above quote, Nuit instructs the scribe in the exact opposite!

The stops as thou wilt; the letters? change them not in style or value!

English specifically is a very "digital" friendly language, it is one of the few languages where the most information can be compacted into the smallest amount of text.

It is easy with English to be "clear" as in communication.

Here we can just revert to our old and dear friend Bob Anton Wilson with his "maybe" logic.

So! The point I can see, with your reference of the "children in the future" (hey you should meet my son! wow!) is that this can evolve in the school system, even now.

Any text in any school, from Kindergarten to High School to Shiva's cool and far out Great White Brotherhood of Sirius, can be read and interpreted through the viewpoint of "duality" in the sense that psychologically, any text can be quickly interpreted into "black or white" thinking or rather something like RAW's "Maybe" logic.

THE TEXT STAYS THE SAME either way! (< Nuit is telling us this is the first "degree" of equanimity! Even though all text as many many interpretations, all text STAYS THE SAME and is equally shared.

So, imagine if a child was never introduced even to "black or white" interpretations of text when they are learning, to read even? What if they are only introduced to "maybe logic" interpretation?

They would just discover the "natural" state of our "interactive" minds, which naturally processes "yes no maybe", and because of this, continually transcending text!

And if no one minds about me raving about my son a bit more, here is where he is so special. I made it a point to, at least on my end, raise him with this sort of "maybe" logic interpretation of text.

First it was an experiment, because I had no idea what this would do (it was an intentional act) because I was an idiot father with no experience at the time.

I was blown away that there was no effort required on his part to "get" the maybe type logic. at the age of 3!

However, is mother on the other hand...oye...let's just say she is rather old school with her black or white rigidity. Too rigid, as in any child who has to deal with this has something to eventually overcome.

So my son was raised with both interpretations of text, dual and non dual!

And he is friggin' acing it. Its amazing! 

 

EDIT:

Forgot to summarize the main point, magick!

Language programs our reality.

All language is some form of magick!

The Law is for All!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

THE TEXT STAYS THE SAME either way! (< Nuit is telling us this is the first "degree" of equanimity! Even though all text as many many interpretations, all text STAYS THE SAME and is equally shared.

To this point, note that Nuit never tells us the English written text word "Tzaddi" is not the star! never!

She says

"All these old letters of my Book are aright; but צ is not the Star. "

This has a much simpler explanation in this regard, I must say, than our dear old beast left us with! Interpret this at face value, clearly צ is not the Star, the star is the star, and צ is צ.

The language of Nuit is the language to help us see through the "Treacher of Images", as in Margrite's famous painting, "This is not a pipe!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images

Nuit tells us, this is not a pipe, this is a painting of a pipe! Nuit always reveals the "actual" as opposed to the reality our dualistic minds immediately get attached to.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

Thanks for answering the question, to which it is implied that either you have 'Crossed the Abyss' or that you are repeating that with which you have heard to answer the question...?

Further is there an Abyss or is this just another construct of the mind...

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Thanks for answering the question, to which it is implied that either you have 'Crossed the Abyss' or that you are repeating that with which you have heard to answer the question...?

Why not both?

hehe

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Further is there an Abyss or is this just another construct of the mind...

 

The mind creates the abyss, it is the "division" that is unnatural.

Duality is not our "natural" mind.

I will say that, on the one hand, Crowley somewhat vastly over exaggerated the "terrors", yet on the other hand, he ain't wrong either, especially when you take him seriously!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

THE TEXT STAYS THE SAME either way! (< Nuit is telling us this is the first "degree" of equanimity! Even though all text as many many interpretations, all text STAYS THE SAME and is equally shared.

Also, another way to contemplate this is via Marshall McLuhan, Nuit's "prophet" in this regard, relating to text and media.

Nuit is telling us that the medium is the message.

And she told us this in 1904, before the French deconstruction movement and the emergence of the moving picture, before "The Rite of Spring" and Relativity!

My god how this discussion has me falling in love all over again with this book! What an amazing book!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

THE TEXT STAYS THE SAME either way! (< Nuit is telling us this is the first "degree" of equanimity! Even though all text as many many interpretations, all text STAYS THE SAME and is equally shared.

I actually just read the Wikipedia entry for the link I shared for "Treachery of Images" or as I like to refer to it as "The TEACHERY of Images", hehe.

Anyway, this quote from the article really nails it!

The painting is sometimes given as an example of meta message conveyed by paralanguage,[11] like Alfred Korzybski's "The word is not the thing" and "The map is not the territory", as well as Denis Diderot's This is not a story. One interpretation is that the pipe in the painting is not a pipe, but rather a drawing of a pipe.

EDIT: As to Crowley's discrepancies...it is entirely conceivable that

  1. Crowley is such an obnoxious, over the top showman, who challenges, with bravado, his superiority in the creative arts that, at his time, those who were or were to become "influencers" of culture (artists, scientists, "civilization builders" as I like to call them).
  2. Like Rene Maggrite, could have been easily influenced by Liber Al Vel Legis, could have, out of curiosity for this "figure" Crowley, wanted to follow his curiosity, and stumbled upon it.
  3. Maggrite could have even had a disdain for Crowley, and have no idea what he was reading or stumbling upon!
  4. This is how "magick" works, like viral marketing, to influence a civilization.
  5. Not saying that DID happen, but it is conceivable that it could have 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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wellreadwellbred
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sangewanchuck56 [09/05/2021 5:20 pm]: "If the book [= Aleister Crowley's The Book of Law] is anything close to what it claims to be, it must be able to make predictions if it has any relevancy.

It is those predicted events, coming true in some enough sense that the prediction seems reasonable within the scope."

sangewanchuck56 [10/05/2021 6:10 pm]: "I am using the word prediction as in the empirical sense, as in, "can I make a prediction with what I think I know, and will that prediction come true?" For example, I shall make a fairly accurate prediction for the next million years the sun will appear to rise in the east and fall in the west. [...]

It [= Aleister Crowley's The Book of Law] [i]s not predicting what the technologies will be, that is up to the "children" of the new aeon to create and design.

What [its final] Chp3 is describing are historical psychological forces that DO play out in history and will continue to play out in history UNTIL resolution (Maat)

And if it is describing those forces as they can be predicted to play out, said new technologies will emerge which will express those forces."

With respect to Crowley and his discrepancies, and with respect to that The Vision and the Voice to A.C. was the second most important book of his Thelema, after his The Book of the Law, and your position that the if the latter book "... is anything close to what it claims to be, it must be able to make predictions if it has any relevancy.", I will mention something freely available to members of this site, that might be of interest to you.

Namely "Download: 1907 Galley Proofs of Collected Works (Liber L)": "LAShTAL.COM is enormously proud to present a free download of a highly significant piece by Aleister Crowley, often spoken of but rarely seen. The document is reproduced here with full permission of the copyright holder.

The PDF file comprises the September 1907 galley proofs of an intended Appendix to the Collected Works, prepared but subsequently discarded by Aleister Crowley. The Appendix was going to reproduce Liber L (The Book Of The Law) together with supporting material. It is a curious document that raises as many questions as it answers!" (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/download-1907-galley-proofs-of-collected-works-liber-l/ )

On the front page of the 1907 Galley Proofs, Aleister Crowley is already using the words "THE VISION AND THE VOICE" (words later used as a title for his Book 418 from 1909), as a headline above the following: "The Cry of the Thirtieth or Inmost Aire or Aethyr" (page 231), and "The Cry of the Twenty and Ninth Aire or Aethyr" (page 232). On the page numbered 234 (numbered so in top left corner), Crowley attributes The Vision of the Voice's The Cry of the 30th Aethyr, and The Cry of the 29th Aethyr, to Aiwass:

"This document (a fragment – 2 " Airs " out of 30) is interesting as being written by the same hand as Liber L. One may assume the constants as the contribution of the author ; the differences as due to inspiration alone."

That A.C. attributed The Vision and the Voice, to Aiwass, the same Aiwass that he also attributed his The Book of the Law to, might add some "predictive power" to said statement from The Cry of the 4th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice:

"And an Angel speaks: Behold, this vision is utterly beyond thine understanding. Yet shalt thou endeavour to unite thyself with the dreadful marriage-bed. [...] And this is that which is written: Malkuth shall be uplifted and set upon the throne of Binah [...]."

It being Aiwass who states; "And this is that which is written: Malkuth shall be uplifted and set upon the throne of Binah", and stating this to Aleister Crowley during a vision described by the same Aiwass as "utterly beyond" Aleister Crowley's "understanding", suggests that Aleister Crowley would not have a full understanding of the future uplifting and setting of Malkuth (= the emanation at the base of the Qabalistic Tree of Life, related to the physical world) "upon the throne of Binah".


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Crowley is such an obnoxious, over the top showman, who challenges, with bravado, his superiority in the creative arts that, at his time, those who were or were to become "influencers" of culture (artists, scientists, "civilization builders" as I like to call them).

Consider this in an entirely other direction, Bertrand Russel!

Russel was highly highly highly curious of Crowley, I can't remember the source now, but it was discovered that Russel even ordered the entire work of "The Equinox"

Bertrand Russel, I believe, is a perfect psychology type whose influence on history does appear to play out in Liber al Vel Legis.

Bertrand Russel is the author (along with Whitehead), of Principia Mathematica, which was principled on the assumption that all truth can be explained and all of these truths are perfectly mathematical and therefore all the rules of math can be written in language and proved in language.

There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.

And that is exactly what happened to Russel and almost the entirety of the philosophy inherited from the 19th Century (darwinism, materialism). Principia Mathematica was mathematically proven to be bullshit, impossible, a fool's errand (My prophet is a fool with his 1, 1, 1) and this happened because of the mathematician Gödel's "incompleteness" theorem, which Liber al Vel Legis already defines in 1904!

Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

This was a monumental disruption in western philosophy, and it also opened the door for computer science, and eventually the internet!

Crowley as viral marketer for these magical revelations through text (why he COULD have been chosen, he was the best "mAD man" for the job) is appreciated when we learn more about the early 20th century, and how radical and unsettling it was across the world, across many different ideologies.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

That A.C. attributed The Vision and the Voice, to Aiwass, the same Aiwass that he also attributed his The Book of the Law to, might add some "predictive power" to said statement from The Cry of the 4th Aethyr, in The Vision and the Voice:

Oh this conversation is getting soooooo good!

Admittedly, I haven't given the vision and the voice that much study! Just a few things here and there, and interesting, you may be on to something here, perhaps Vision and Voice is something like a (pardon the pun! really) Hadith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Namely "Download: 1907 Galley Proofs of Collected Works (Liber L)": "LAShTAL.COM is enormously proud to present a free download of a highly significant piece by Aleister Crowley, often spoken of but rarely seen. The document is reproduced here with full permission of the copyright holder.

Hi! I am super intrigued to read this but when I followed the instructions on the site to access, it leads me here https://www.lashtal.com/category/c15-resources/ and I can't find a "download" section or a "members only section"

Did I just fumble my test into the illuminati?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

I hope we are not having two different conversations over the same word, prediction.

I am not using "prediction" in the psychic sense, as in the book is "foretelling the future"

 

 

But you said at (page 11 of this thread) 

 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

So cool, in principle we have the entirety to the 20th century and some but not all of the 21st to see if Liber Al vel Legis truly has any "predictive power". 

If the book is anything close to what it claims to be, it must be able to make predictions if it has any relevancy.

It is those predicted events, coming true in some enough sense that the prediction seems reasonable within the scope.

I mean, I would have a serious problem with Liber al Vel Legis if it didn't predict the internet.

 ???

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Funny, after all these years, it was this conversation that made me realize the text of liber al vel legis, the "three act" structure, is following classic formula for speaking to a large audience, which is.

  • Explain to them what you are going to tell them (Nuit's written voice fits this perfectly)
  • Tell them (Hadit's written voice, perfectly)
  • Then explain to them what you just told them (RHk voice, perfectly, giving the explanation in the context of here and now, how it plays out)

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

 

 ???

Oh C'mon Dom, surely its not that difficult, surely you are merely being compassionate for all of those stumbling on to this thread from search terms "what does book of law mean" 🙂

I make a prediction that we can use liber al vel legis as an historical predictive guide. Since the book was written in 1904, and it is 2021, therefore 117 years of history has passed, and therefore, that history should either falsify my prediction or remain consistent with it.

i.e. I am using prediction as in "reverse engineering"

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

But now at this level, I feel I am ready to take the plunge, so to speak.

Other than the fact that Sirius is the brightest star in our neighborhood, any chit-chat-talk-talk about Sirius, The Great White Lodge. "Beings" who may live there - or not, and other such Sirian mysteries, must be considered abstract, even in relation to our abstract minds. We have no way to prove anything, save that it's a bright star.

At least this is so in relation to the external luminary. As with so many (maybe all?) conceptual castles, battle-plans, and paths to glory, we can save ourselves a lot of grief, and avoid external insults, by applying this stuff inwardly. That is, Sirius in the night sky is just a reflection of an original light source that is found "inside."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Part of the ordeal of Crowley's system is really the insight that on one hand, you cannot really trust this guy, yet on the other hand, every insight that is meaningful is obtainable through the "journey" of just trying to figure out what this guy is all about.

One must obtain the siddhi known as "Telling the difference between Frater Perdurabo and the imp Crowley." He emphatically said, "Don't believe me - just do the work and find out for yourself." The Work is found mostly in the Class D Libers: One does them and notes the results. The other stuff (Classes B,C, and even A) are subject to various interpretations. Shall I say "discrepancies?". Thus, arguments are bound to arise. And internal confusion, too.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

And I am still super curious...How did Crowley receive the true himalayan system of magick when Tibet was closed off to the world?

As stated earlier by myself, the Dzogchen principle (Rigpa, Adi, Emptiness) lie at the heart of all systems, East and West. The Orientals speak more openly of it and the Western guys try to cover it up with their own importance. AC's access to this non-concept is displayed when he gets into Taoism.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Further is there an Abyss or is this just another construct of the mind...

Oh, it's there all right, but the term is somewhat metaphorical. A more scientific explanation calls it "a gap in consciousness." Just like spectographs demonstrate assorted black "lines" or "gaps" between clusters of electro-activity, so certain areas of the mind are separated by empty zones. We know of three primary "gaps": Paroketh, the Abyss, and the Planetary Ring Pass-Not.

As to your heretical suggestion (or question) regarding is this just another construct of the mind... the answer is: Of course it is.

However, it seems to be universal, even though different folks might relate it in different ways. 

Whether it's a mental construct (it is) or just a human being trying to follow his/her star (it is), there is a common definition of what takes place: The human vehicle, who has become a very sharp pencil in a world of runny ball-point pens, enters a phase (a "zone") whereby anything they are attached to, or reliant upon, will be removed. This, of course, includes reliance upon one's superior mind, which is shown to be a dunce-clown. Also included for disposal are Orders, Gurus, Friends, Ambitions, Vocations, etc.  The funny thing is, you get to keep a whole bunch of stuff ... as long as you're not attached to it, or reliant upon it for physical or moral support.

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Explain to them what you are going to tell them (Nuit's written voice fits this perfectly)

Divide, add, multiply, and understand.

Divide is her first instruction of what we should do with this collection of two numbers, 5 and 6, yet as they both "work" together, in the counting number "56", which means we divide 50 into 6, an awkward calculation at first, but the answer is the elegance of liber al vel legis in all her glory, 0.12

Her next instruction is to "add"

So okay, we get 3, taking "that which remains" from the first answer, 1 and 2, as zero does not exist and therefore the "." is irrelevant.

3x3 is 9, among other things the maths of tantra itself, "nesting", recapitulation.

And this helps us not "know" something, but "understand"

Funny thing, about those counting numbers 0, 1, and 2.

Funny thing how they are actually used in simple every day transactions, how the "veil" leaves a lovely "dakini" footprint all over our daily uses of these numbers, and how identical it is to the ordering Nuit is teaching us about not just how to read and understand liber al vel legis, but reality.

0 is the number of sunyata, and in basic counting, 0 is a number we use to confirm the non existence of it as a real number. 0 only exists to confirm it does not exist in basic counting! This tantra we can find here too!

1 is the only "actual" real number. it does not "mean" 1 number, it is 1. A =A, oddly enough, a term in logic, communicates this same meaning.

The "actual" number line is 1, 1, 1, 1 to infinity. All other numbers are simply relative, symbolic expressions of "1", the only actual number.

2 is the first symbolic number!

So these numbers, 0, 1, and 2 as used in basic counting, are also communicating the tantra of the entire universe, Tao Yin Yang all rolled up neatly and we never realized we already know how to do this.

Nuit wants to make it simple!

The ordeals I write not!

She doesn't need to communicate these insights through arcane tarot decks and infinite kabbala calculations, that is way too much work, way to challenging, she only needs basic simple things like the first three numbers on a number line, 0, 1, 2 , something all of us can understand.

She defines what "true" division is, a unity! Not the division of duality, 1 or the other. She does not subtract! That is IMPOSSIBLE in a whole system, but she only "adds", or unites, brings harmony.

The Law is for All

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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