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Crowley and his discrepancies

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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

Thanks....Now that a we have arrived at the "Crowley's Pipe" section of the proceedings, I think it can be well understood that the many photos of the Beast with his pipe, that such representations depicted an actual pipe!

Now if you rub the 'pipe' long enough, and with proper technique,  then it might well be conceivable that "Treachery of Images" might well be of AC's pipe, but I rather doubt that, though the shape is suggestive of those he liked, ... or that Maggrite was familiar with either Liber L vel Legis or Liber Al vel Legis...though perhaps he was aware of Oliver Haddo...smoking  his pipe there in the cafe's of Paree...

Now Rene did have a thing with painting skies, with puffy clouds, depicted with rather uninspired and flat light blue....so could this be suggestive of a link to "Himalayan Masters" whom are the obvious hidden avatars, as you say, behind The Book of the Law!?

Are pipes a sign of Equanimity...

 

 

 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

As stated earlier by myself, the Dzogchen principle (Rigpa, Adi, Emptiness) lie at the heart of all systems, East and West. The Orientals speak more openly of it and the Western guys try to cover it up with their own importance. AC's access to this non-concept is displayed when he gets into Taoism.

 

Is it in the west? Sure, it may be alluded to, but I cannot find any evidence that any occult order in the west specifically uses a dzokden understanding of emptiness specifically as a necessary step to complete magick, or complete a tantra, as a practice and instruction, how to.

The dzokden stages is literally called the "completion" stage. and this stage is spelled out super clearly, not in any arcane manner, with a lineage that is so long and crystal clear with zero ambiguity, while in the west all we see is choppy choppy lineages, curbed expectations, puzzling disappointments, rumors, misinformation, and just more questions.

I think the west may have had it at one point, but lost it.

From my research, it seems it all got holed up in Tibet 1000 years ago, closed off from the world, isolated itself, protected itself, and perfected itself.

Of course, I am not a historian, and likely my intuitive approach to the historical trails may be misguided after all!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Are pipes a sign of Equanimity...

Everything in the natural world, duality, samsara, is empty of its own existence. Thoughts, forms, numbers, pipes, pictures of pipes, and thank you I shall never look at a picture of Crowley smoking a pipe the same way again!

Ha! that's great

"This is NOT Aleister Crowley smoking a pipe...just sayin!" – Nuit

So many pictures of Crowley smoking a pipe, oye, and I still never saw Aleister smoke a pipe! ha! love it

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

Yes I have never actually seen smoke exit from Crowley's pipe, mouth or other orifices in any of the photos that  I have seen of him... (though LASHTAL does surprise me with new unseen 'images' all the time, Thanks!)...But he said he smoked em, and learning to smoke (one must not let it interfere with one's athleticism) was an important initiation for him, so I will take him at his word!

Anyways this his piqued my curiosity, not the piroque that I have never smoked, but your saying~

"Everything in the natural world, duality, samsara, is empty of its own existence."

Does this imply a 'fullness of essence' then or is the sentence but a "Treachery of Sentence" and thus an example of just Buddhist flesh?!

Kindly!

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Yes I have never actually seen smoke exit from Crowley's pipe, mouth or other orifices in any of the photos that  I have seen of him... (though LASHTAL does surprise me with new unseen 'images' all the time, Thanks!)...But he said he smoked em, and learning to smoke (one must not let it interfere with one's athleticism) was an important initiation for him, so I will take him at his word!

You can take Crowley at his word, and likely, that would 99% likely to be actually true. But are you CERTAIN that it is true from the medium which communicates?

NO!

Even if it was 99.999999999999999999% true!

This is Nuit's language, the language of 100% certainty!

and Nuit would tell you, with 100% certainty, that this is NOT Aleister Crowley smoking a pipe, this is just a picture of Aleister Crowley smoking a pipe.

That tiny distinction is VERY important, and a teaching in how to distinguish another powerful duality, transcended and expressed in Liber al very elegantly, the duality of certainty and uncertainty, and the CERTAIN distinction between them 🙂

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

"Everything in the natural world, duality, samsara, is empty of its own existence."

Does this imply a 'fullness of essence' then or is the sentence but a "Treachery of Sentence" and thus an example of just Buddhist flesh?!

Wow, let's unpack this 1, 1, 1...

Nuit informs us how to "interpret" what i am referring to as "emptiness" as used in Buddhism.

The "word" emptiness in Buddhism, honestly I do not find very attractive at all for this, as it is implying a duality, full. It is also likely based on earlier translations, whose english parents were swamped in dualistic understanding of language.

Additionally, this is easily confused with "empty and full" from the taoist school, which is NOT the same concept at all and i say this as a warning, that was a mistake I made that took me 10 years to figure out, 10 years to correct all the delusions I suffered, 10 years to realize how easy it could have been instead if I just relied on Nuit's refuge here instead of the Buddhas, hehe.

So! Nuit explains this concept of "self empty" in a way that is easy for us to understand, using the number line, an infinite number line.

You can number the line with just 1,1,1,1 or the classic 1,2,3 etc, or simply count by the number of primes. Either way, they all total to infinity, continuously.

"The omnipresence of my body, the consciousness of the contiNUITy of existence"

So, "emptiness" means to the self exactly what the "total sum" of a number line means. There simply is no possible way to "summarize" infinite. You can even list out the biggest number ever imaginable, with a gazillion times one gazillion 0's following a 1, and you would still be short 1 infinity in a total!

That is the empty of self, we have no real "summary". Any sum we come up with is provisional, temporary, dependent on this thing and that thing, each other!

Now, you ask specifically, (if we look but close into the word, hehe) "Does this imply a 'fullness of essence?" well that "essence" is infinite, empty of a final summary just like the number line!

"is the sentence but a "Treachery of Sentence" and thus an example of just Buddhist flesh?!"

YOU BASTARD!

You are now jumping ahead and I have to keep up with you!

I never looked at that language in this specific way! Illuminating!

This is a very special conversation all of us our having, I hope all of us can appreciate that 🙂

EDIT: Do not confuse the language of Nuit with the Language of Hadit! TWO distinctions, big time! Hadit has a completely different way of arriving at emptiness, and its one of the greatest jokes in the whole book!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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This is a warning to anyone discovering this discussion thread through internet search. You will only understand this thread if you lose your philosophical materialism. 

If your mind is griped in materialism, you haven't a hope in the world.

And if you are such a materialist type person, believing, for example–that our minds, our consciousness, our "spirit", is simply and nothing more than our brains, the first chapter of the book of the law has a bone to pick with you right at the start of the book!

Nuit really does not like philosophical materialism at all!

While many assume Liber al vel Legis has a voice that seeks to destroy the gods of religions of men, replacing religious thought are quite mistaken when Liber al vel legis is viewed in non dual language.

Nuit doesn't like philosophical materialism because they are abusing her strongest features, math and science of the natural universe!

She gets to this immediately

The unveiling of the company of heaven.

Every man and every woman is a star.

Every number is infinite; there is no difference.

And Nuit immediately makes corrections, things are out of order, and she immediately puts them back in order, and the first order she corrects is that of the materialist view of the universe itself!

The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs.

Worship then the Khabs, and behold my light shed over you!

Liber al Vel Legis, interpreted in twilight language, that of non duality, assumes every thing is "mind". Matter is in the mind. Everything is consciousness.

Philosophical materialism has this reversed, mind is matter, and emerges from matter (mind as epiphenomenon of nature).

So Nuit is saying, hey guys, heads up!

Brains are in the mind!

The mind is not in the brain!

(All matter (mother) is in consciousness, consciousness is not in matter, our natural world is literally "mother" in this sense, mother mind. another variation is "the stars are in the light, not the light is in the stars!")

Note that Nuit "reverses" this.

This is another tantric "formula" reversing opposites in meaning and semantics, very playful. Nuit does this a bunch. This reversal resolves the paradox of the semantics of the text.

Also itself reflective of a deeper union, and how to "unpack" or "unwind" hidden meanings in texts 🙂

So before she puts gods in their place, she puts math and science in their proper place too!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Is it in the west? Sure, it may be alluded to, but I cannot find any evidence that any occult order in the west specifically uses a dzokden understanding of emptiness specifically as a necessary step to complete magick, or complete a tantra, as a practice and instruction, how to.

The heart of Dzogchen is emptiness. Perdurabo clearly demonstrates familiarity with this in The Book of Lies

As to no western occult tradition using Void as a necessary step to complete magick, or complete a tantra, as a practice and instruction, how to. These are conditions and concepts that merely confuse the matter. Dzogchen, in its pure form without tantras or magic differs from virtually all other systems in that it places the ultimate goal right up front (so the aspirant doesn't wander around getting lost), while everybody else puts forward their god, or their philosophy, or their system, without revealing that the ultimate goal is nothing. This is usually because they don't know it themselves.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

this stage is spelled out super clearly, not in any arcane manner, with a lineage that is so long and crystal clear with zero ambiguity, while in the west all we see is choppy choppy lineages

My point, exactly. Did you know Chinese people write and read from top to bottom, then right to left? Do you realize that those heathen people think, act, and operate in exact opposition to many western ways? Sure, under proper social conditions, Chinese and Gringos appear to be similar human entities. But the inner orientation is like Yin and Yang. They are opposites, but thankfully they are also complimentary.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I think the west may have had it at one point, but lost it.

Fuck the West!  You and I, and a few other folks, have adopted the position of The Knight of the East and the West. That's all that counts. We are interested in taking our yang and mating it with our yin; our ladies are devoted to the opposite. It doesn't matter which hemisphere the teaching comes from, or the shape of the eyes, or the internal orientation, because whatever these qualities are, the individual will have to reverse them.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

This is a warning to anyone discovering this discussion thread through internet search. You will only understand this thread if you lose your philosophical materialism.

It is best to burn this thread after the first encounter, without reading any more. Terrible psychiatric diagnoses await anyone who persists.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

If your mind is griped in materialism, you haven't a hope in the world.

May I beg to differ and offer up the concept that they have every hope in the world. What they are lacking is any hope for getting off the treadmill before they die.

Even then, many people say, "I'll do it later; I'm having too much fun now, losing money, dealing with health or the boss, and getting drunk." So they put it off until they die. Realizing this, and the error of their ways, they invented reincarnation, which is like resurrection, which is like living forever.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

The heart of Dzogchen is emptiness. Perdurabo clearly demonstrates familiarity with this in The Book of Lies

yes I know hence my question how did Crowley get it?

Only place I find this is in Himalaya tantra, Buddhist and Bonpo, and Thelema (as in holy text, dharma, not sanga)

Posted by: @shiva

As to no western occult tradition using Void as a necessary step to complete magick, or complete a tantra, as a practice and instruction, how to. These are conditions and concepts that merely confuse the matter. Dzogchen, in its pure form without tantras or magic differs from virtually all other systems in that it places the ultimate goal right up front (so the aspirant doesn't wander around getting lost), while everybody else puts forward their god, or their philosophy, or their system, without revealing that the ultimate goal is nothing. This is usually because they don't know it themselves.

But there is no separation in terms of practice Dzokden is not separate from generation stages, nor sutra stages. It is not practiced in isolation, it is practiced for the completion, the resolution, the final wham wham woo hoo or the previous work is...incomplete!.

We only see it separated as a practice when we run into the Zen school, who do put it upfront, but who have removed the magick! (professional soldiers who dare to play and not fight) And Crowley kinda railed against that as well, a "mysticism" only approach to.

Interesting, in the east, these two schools, two approaches, magick and mysticism, play out as well, just like in the west

Posted by: @shiva

My point, exactly. Did you know Chinese people write and read from top to bottom, then right to left? Do you realize that those heathen people think, act, and operate in exact opposition to many western ways? Sure, under proper social conditions, Chinese and Gringos appear to be similar human entities. But the inner orientation is like Yin and Yang. They are opposites, but thankfully they are also complimentary.

Oh my, that was your point, but it came to me when I was presenting an alternative to your other...wait, before I read...wait a minute you bastard, I see what you did there!

YES

Thank you

Still, where did Crowley get it tho?

Posted by: @shiva

Fuck the West!  You and I, and a few other folks, have adopted the position of The Knight of the East and the West. That's all that counts. We are interested in taking our yang and mating it with our yin; our ladies are devoted to the opposite. It doesn't matter which hemisphere the teaching comes from, or the shape of the eyes, or the internal orientation, because whatever these qualities are, the individual will have to reverse them.

Ra Hoor Khu, is that yhu?

hehe

Hi internet visitor, this is the stuff we warned you about.

its just brutal, the unity

brutal

total madness awaits!

Posted by: @shiva

May I beg to differ and offer up the concept that they have every hope in the world. What they are lacking is any hope for getting off the treadmill before they die.

Yikes! See! You have totally crushed my universe yet a new universe re-emerges!

How could I not see that? What sort of fool was I to deny them hope at all? 

Have hope! yes!

Add that with some "certainty" and the diamond indestructible path is yours, future initiate stumbling in from Google search.

Posted by: @shiva

Even then, many people say, "I'll do it later; I'm having too much fun now, losing money, dealing with health or the boss, and getting drunk." So they put it off until they die. Realizing this, and the error of their ways, they invented reincarnation, which is like resurrection, which is like living forever.

But this is fun, what you and I are doing here, and everyone in this discussion.

Maybe we need to add dancing girls, a few more jokes, a solid scary mystery, anything to keep those new visitors from internet search here, and reading, and wondering, and hoping!

Thank you for your silver 🙂

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

So they put it off until they die. Realizing this, and the error of their ways, they invented reincarnation, which is like resurrection, which is like living forever.

 

Thus ye have star and star, system and system, let one not know well the other!

It makes for so much more of a thrilling resolution when they all arrive in the same place 🙂

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Dzogchen, in its pure form without tantras or magic differs from virtually all other systems in that it places the ultimate goal right up front

The pure state is not the goal in Dzokden, the goal of all tantra and dzokden in the Himalaya is complete and utter world peace, and all magick/tantra is in service to that goal, hence the allusion in Liber al "professional soldiers to who dare to play and not fight."

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Pertinax
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@sangewanchuck56

Though I follow along the conversation, I don't really have much to say in a conversation about nothingness, however, since you suggest that the idea doesn't exist in Western thought, might I refer you to the works of Meister Eckhart, particularly the comparison made between his theology of the 'ground of being' and the Buddhist conception of the void as put forth by D.T. Suzuki. 

A good start is: Mysticism, Christian and Buddhist. 

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @pertinax

Though I follow along the conversation, I don't really have much to say in a conversation about nothingness, however, since you suggest that the idea doesn't exist in Western thought, might I refer you to the works of Meister Eckhart, particularly the comparison made between his theology of the 'ground of being' and the Buddhist conception of the void as put forth by D.T. Suzuki. 

A good start is: Mysticism, Christian and Buddhist. 

My apologies, I did not mean to communicate that the state of being sunyata, is not a concept in the west, that is not what I meant. 

I meant as a completion stage in a formal system of magick specifically, I have not found it in the west as a complete system, one that is reliable, with a lineage, etc And that could just be because I am a sloppy researcher and need to be enlightened more. 

There are three "grades" in all of the tantric systems, I believe this is consistent, with Dzokden being the completion level, the "third order" so to speak.

Almost similar in scope to Golden Dawn, Rosicrucian, and AA as the "third order" but Crowley was the one who made the connection with the "third order" that was what the whole fight between him and Matthers was about, no? See what I mean, the golden dawn, there was that whole lineage thing, who made contact with the secret chiefs? That is what I am referring to. Well it was Crowley apparently.

Thanks for the recommendation, Eckhart never disappoints!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Pertinax
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@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

My apologies, I did not mean to communicate that the state of being sunyata, is not a concept in the west, that is not what I meant. 

I meant as a completion stage in a formal system of magick specifically, I have not found it in the west as a complete system, one that is reliable, with a lineage, etc And that could just be because I am a sloppy researcher and need to be enlightened more. 

There are three "grades" in all of the tantric systems, I believe this is consistent, with Dzokden being the completion level, the "third order" so to speak.

Almost similar in scope to Golden Dawn, Rosicrucian, and AA as the "third order" but Crowley was the one who made the connection with the "third order" that was what the whole fight between him and Matthers was about, no? See what I mean, the golden dawn, there was that whole lineage thing, who made contact with the secret chiefs? That is what I am referring to. Well it was Crowley apparently.

I think I probably didn't read your post carefully enough. No apologies needed.

As far as I can recall, the closest I find is the Mithraic religion which had seven degrees of initiation which apparently correspond to the seven planets and so could be pasted on to the ToL system up to Binah.

In Christian mysticism the division seems to be binary, beginners vs proficient, discursive vs infused meditation etc.

But yes, offhand I can't thing of anything directly corresponding to the Asian systems of lineal with direct transmissions, the handing out of menkyos, licenses to teach or other shakti-pat.

From what little I know of Dzogchen (Dzokden?), the end state is identical with the beginning state. It puts me in mind of the Zen proverb: "Before I started to practice Zen, mountains were mountains, rivers were rivers. When I began to practice, mountains were no longer mountains, and rivers were no longer rivers. Now I begin to understand zen, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers.

It does seem that Zen is a refinement of Dzogchen, or is Dzogchen an elaboration of Zen? It's understandable, since both are expressions of the Mahayana school, but the Dzogchen does seem to have similar ideas to the Taoist schools, they talk of chi for a start, which is a Chinese word so probably not what they originally used, and Taoism certainly influenced Buddhism, hence Zen (which I hesitate to call a school, since Dogen was pretty clear that anyone who talks of a 'zen school' is a devil"). 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @pertinax

Though I follow along the conversation, I don't really have much to say in a conversation about nothingness

Emptiness of mind, emptiness of body, and emptiness of speech.

the pure state does not going anywhere when conversations happen, and some conversations will make it easier to experience emptiness, just saying that so you don't feel shy 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @pertinax

As far as I can recall, the closest I find is the Mithraic religion which had seven degrees of initiation which apparently correspond to the seven planets and so could be pasted on to the ToL system up to Binah.

I have little wisdom on that tradition. Where I see a lineage in the west is Egypt, Jew, and Persian. And then something happens, cant see who goes where with what, Templars have something but they get killed, The Crusades are brutal, Islam advances, even in India, initiates have only one safe place to go. We get some sprinkles, here and there, in the west, but everyone wants to root what they are doing to some masters in the Himalaya, and then, bang, Tibet 1959 and a whole flood of esoteric history and treasure presents itself, perfected for a thousand years with the full nation participating in magickal rituals for world peace, completely intact.

Posted by: @pertinax

From what little I know of Dzogchen (Dzokden?), the end state is identical with the beginning state. It puts me in mind of the Zen proverb: "Before I started to practice Zen, mountains were mountains, rivers were rivers. When I began to practice, mountains were no longer mountains, and rivers were no longer rivers. Now I begin to understand zen, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers.

I think the spelling can go either way, my own particular order uses the Dzokden spelling. Yes Dzokden meditation and Zen are the same, but Zen does not have the tantra, just the sutra stage, so they are having beautiful zen awareness, and doing some beautiful writing, they are just not practicing magick.

Many different ways to express the primordial state in language, Zen is known for the paradox and using language to transcend language, i love it!

Posted by: @pertinax

It does seem that Zen is a refinement of Dzogchen, or is Dzogchen an elaboration of Zen? It's understandable, since both are expressions of the Mahayana school, but the Dzogchen does seem to have similar ideas to the Taoist schools, they talk of chi for a start, which is a Chinese word so probably not what they originally used, and Taoism certainly influenced Buddhism, hence Zen (which I hesitate to call a school, since Dogen was pretty clear that anyone who talks of a 'zen school' is a devil"). 

Just two different schools, one is Mahayana and the other is Vajrayana. All Vajrayana Buddhism, as well as BonPo, which is identical, is magick. Very shamanic, very theatrical.

Zen is none of that, and some Zen look down on Vajrayana as in "wtf???"

Vajrayana has a goal, Zen has no goal.

Posted by: @pertinax

but the Dzogchen does seem to have similar ideas to the Taoist schools, they talk of chi for a start, which is a Chinese word so probably not what they originally used, and Taoism certainly influenced Buddhism, hence Zen (which I hesitate to call a school, since Dogen was pretty clear that anyone who talks of a 'zen school' is a devil"). 

My understanding, which is still forming, is the "vajra" or Diamond, was brought to Tibet around 800AD via Aleister Crowley, I'm sorry I meant Padmasambhava, a very very over the top magical guru, and this influenced the Taoist in China but then they formed 'Chan Buddhism' which has some similarities, and that evolved into Zen via Bodhidharma.

Funny, some of the taoists considered Vajrayana buddhism to be too "nihilist" and the Tibetans looked at the Chinese systems as crude, like the views of the northerners vs the southerners, the hill billies in the south!

My understanding tho is that both toaist schools and vajrayana schools overlapped with each other, but also diverge. For example, the kalachakra tantra, the king of all tantras, the foundation of Tibet, did not take traction in China for some reason, the Taoists had their own "magic square" and that was it.

The only other place we see Vajrayana Buddhism show up, other than Tibet, is Japan with the Shinto, very very esoteric school indeed!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

yes I know hence my question how did Crowley get it?

I believe it was 1912 [?]  By then he had V.V.V.V.V. to guide him, or be him, and one doesn't get to be V5 without having found emptiness. I was considering searching AL for only those verses that directly address the ultimate solution (zero, naught, 61, etc). One, someone, not me, could run a similar search of The Equinox, Blavatsky, Nietzsche, Plato, those guys, looking for "clear light," "void," "empty," that sort of thing ... in order to see if the non-concept was lurking in hidden parts of the Occident.

Personally, I never heard of it 'til I encountered it in Zen literature. All of us on the Tong Ranch down in rural Mexico (1970-71) practiced koans and pretended to be empty Zenners ... all this while we were still working around in the Thelemic Outer Order. Even the Grand Master got into it. So, combined with The Book of Lies, with which we were already familiar, the Zen stuff helped to round out Frater P's crypticisms.

He didn't have to get it from someone or someplace; he could have encountered it by experience.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

We only see it separated as a practice when we run into the Zen school, who do put it upfront, but who have removed the magick!

This sounds like the Hinayana school where the aspirant is mainly interested in getting off the wheel, without much concern about how many other cows get back to the barn.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

total madness awaits!

Ah-Waite's Syndrome.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

anything to keep those new visitors from internet search here, and reading, and wondering, and hoping!

Nah. The lurkers can go fornicate themselves, along with the West, and Communist China, too. Outsiders who accidentally stumble into the Void (I understand it has happened) are in sink or swim mode. Our (all of us) sanity and salvation depend on Sgr A*, which is a radio station at the center of the galaxy. I am a trained military, and licensed amateur, radio operator. My license permits me to use satellites and does not restrict me from contacting alien life at, say, Galactic Central, but I have got any meaningful messages yet. Perhaps it's because the Sgr A* transmits on the x-ray band that is causing the delay. We're not supposed to confuse the planes and I don't have an x-ray receiver.

Posted by: @pertinax

might I refer you to the works of Meister Eckhart

And I thought there was this tome called "Being and Nothingness," but I don't know when it was writ by who. [?] Surely one of you clockwork minds can bring this simple title into fruition.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @pertinax

they talk of chi for a start,

The word in Tibet for Kundalini energy is tummo

In Tantra, there are "winds, channels, and drops" which would  loosely correspond with qi, jing, and shen

The true "tantra", magick, was held by the original BonPo before Buddhism arrived, and it was for the kings, for the purposes of building civilization.

The BonPo are the only known lineage that traces their history 18,000 to the very present, and the articulation in their system is so sophisticated and advanced, and even though the practices are almost identical, I do notice that the Bonpo have the greatest clarity in translations into English of any system I have encountered, including the Buddhist Vajrayana!

 

EDIT: It may be possible the BonPo received the tradition from the Persian school! I am most in the dark about the Persians, and they always show up everywhere!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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wellreadwellbred
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sangewanchuck56: "Hi! I am super intrigued to read this but when I followed the instructions on the site to access, it leads me here https://www.lashtal.com/category/c15-resources/ and I can't find a "download" section or a "members only section"

The following link worked for dowloading when I tested it yesterday: https://www.lashtal.com/download/liber-l-1907-galley-proof-for-collected-works-aleister-crowley/

 

As for "Crowley and his discrepancies", an important part of his legacy is his bibliophile activities. He invested much in compulsively self-publishing both periodicals and books, eventually running out of money after much world travel, and lavish self-publication, often with luxury bindings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6hvQBQ1jD0 In the hyperlink preceding this sentence, is a clip from Season 11 of the TV show Pawn Stars, about a rare 1888 first edition of Oscar Wilde's The Happy Prince and Other Tales

From 3 minutes 30 seconds into said clip, a " rare books expert", says that "... the materials used (for example Japanese vellum) were very beautiful. Wilde was very, very sensitive about how how his books were published, and he wanted them to be beautiful. The problem is he didn't anticipate how they would age 100 years later."

That his publications have aged in ways he didn't anticipate, or in ways he did not intend, is apparently one of the major ones among "Crowley and his discrepancies":

[THE SPIRIT OF SOLITUDE An Autohagiography Subsequently re-Antichristened The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Chapter 60 (Source: https://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter60  ):]

"Fuller and I had clearly understood the imminence of the world catastrophe. We did not exactly know where civilization would begin to crack, or when; we were content to leave such speculations to the Prophet Baxter, the Rev. Booth Clibborn and such small deer. But we saw the New Zealander sitting on the ruined arch of London Bridge quite clearly.

We could also see the Professor of Archaeology in the University of Lhasa excavating the ruins of the British Museum. He discovered a vast number of volumes of our period purporting to deal with the occult sciences, but there were few indeed of these which had not crumbled into dust. Of those that remained, the vast majority were evidently frivolous. He rejoiced exceedingly to discover one series of volumes, the dignity of whose appearance, the permanence of whose paper, the excellence of whose printing, and the evident care which had been bestowed on their production, showed him at first sight that the people responsible for their production had been at infinite pains to make these volumes testify against the tyranny of time1). He had them taken to his camp with the greatest care. Although he could not read a word of the letterpress, the illustrations were in the universal language, which he could read at sight. The first standard work of reference — the key to the wisdom of the buried past.

With this vision before us, we determined on making our record of the highest attainments of human spirits of our generation as worthy as possible of its subject."

 

1) "WEH Note: Here Crowley refers to the preferred manner of his publication. Yet he never understood the nature of binding, and looked to hand-made papers that yellow and mold in the damp. He sought fine leather for the covers, but the stitchings were of linen and the glue such as to fail with age. The first edition of “The Equinox” tends to fall apart at the touch!"


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

We could also see the Professor of Archaeology in the University of Lhasa excavating the ruins of the British Museum.

What an extraordinary line of verse!

If the subjects of this line are "re-versed" in the historical moment it was written in (roughly) it is describing the opposite.

Britain invaded Tibet in 1904, the same year of Liber Al vel Legis's reception. This almost reads like some sort of nationalistic projection viewed through a mirror. Britain was the one excavating the past around the world at this time, and the first nation to step into the Tibetan Himalaya, and Britain is said to have "looted" Tibet (just like India).

This entire document you shared is really eye opening.

I've always been quite curious about this rather large glaring "discrepancy" of Crowley, this fevered projection of a collapse of civilization, preserving literature that could be salvaged in the new world after the collapse, an "anxiety" in his view.

Perhaps Crowley did only perceive "one-half" of the formula as it plays out in history, the view of the collapse of the old and failed to see the emergence of the new?

Preserving traditions is always an anxiety in any culture, yet the entirety of the 20th century is literally the opposite of this anxiety, we see a renaissance instead, fevered beyond imagination by the Internet. Now the most arcane and secretive practices in the world are easily perused, available to all.

I suppose any tradition that didn't make it to the age of the internet would be lost forever, no doubt! Perhaps Crowley saw, in some crude manner, that he needed to keep Thelema alive after his death to save the tradition from the collapse, but he only needed to do enough to keep it going until the internet emerged, when truly "locked glass" would preserve the images forever, as predicted.

Curious! Thank you for sharing it.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

This sounds like the Hinayana school where the aspirant is mainly interested in getting off the wheel, without much concern about how many other cows get back to the barn.

 

That goes for the entirety of the "mystical" path, where all attainment is for the transcendence of the self, or the "return to heaven", leaving the world and all of us behind. It could occur in any tradition really, in the individual, this is the path of the cherishing "self" and the view from tantra is that it is the path of the "selfish", for the highest possible attainment is the one we can all take together, at once, and therefore all the magick is for transmuting the world, not transcending the world.

Which is also in Crowley's system, transmuting the world into the "tabernacle of the Holy Ghost"

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Yes I have never actually seen smoke exit from Crowley's pipe, mouth or other orifices in any of the photos that  I have seen of him... (though LASHTAL does surprise me with new unseen 'images' all the time, Thanks!)...But he said he smoked em, and learning to smoke (one must not let it interfere with one's athleticism) was an important initiation for him, so I will take him at his word!

You can take Crowley at his word, and likely, that would 99% likely to be actually true. But are you CERTAIN that it is true from the medium which communicates?

NO!

Even if it was 99.999999999999999999% true!

So funny, I just received an invitation into a email conversation, and old friend and mentor, who is a neuroscientist, sent this morning the following which remarkably addresses this arc of the convo here, some "syncro-mysticism" hehe

In the most technical sense we don’t “see” real reality. “Things” like viruses, UFOs, people, potatoes, atoms are mostly composed of 99.999999999999999999% empty space. And they have no ‘colors’ and such. So there is basically endless space out there and within  things. When the rods and cones in our retina respond to narrow slits of the electromagnetic spectrum they react by sending an enormous signal to the brain representing that speck of near dimensionless energy emanating from unimaginable tiny specks of ’things’ a bit like the silver particles on photographic negatives. So, unimaginably tiny wave/particles become represented as relatively enormous monstrous bowling ball black spots when perceived. And these fuse in your perceptual apparatuses to create the illusion of ‘solidness. 'Sooo, when you look at your coffee cup this morning it seems solid but thats your own sensory-perceptual system creating the illusion. And when you ’feel’ the solidness of the cup your somatosensory system is ‘feeling’ not the cup but the electromagnetic pressure of repelling electrons of you and the cup. Etc.
 
So we never really see things as they really are. (But that doesn’t mean they are not there)

Hence, using the "meta-language" Nuit teaches us, we can remain in "certainty" for ever within this discrepancy, a way to stay present with the reality we are creating, mindful of the language used. If dualistic language slips into our minds, even if for a brief second, we plant the seeds of our future delusion and suffering.

Her soft feet not hurting the little flowers

Nuit causes NO suffering!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

i am glad you and others are having fun with these discussion~ as I concur with the fare...

It should be remembered that Crowley stated that he was following up on Blavatsky's mission, one where HPB did usher forth, poof, Buddhist texts, etc, but she called what she was bringing to the worlds attention as Theosophy. 

I wonder if you are familiar with Kenneth Grant's Outer Gateways? Relevant to the recent complexion of our discussions is a chapter entitled, "The Madhyamaka and Crowley".

Grant states that of old aeon doctrines only that of the Buddhist Anatta expresses total transcendence of duality. Grant then refers to Crowley's and HPB and states that while "Crowley claimed to have followed her work he did not base his work on anatta but upon the Hegelian dialectic"

Grant then qualifies Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka as a means of transcending phenomenal existence which he states that positivist systems can not provide and the Madhyamaka is based upon an "Absolute Zero" not a dialectical one as found in 0=2 formula, which KG notes that AC had in his essay Berashith confirmed the Absolute Zero, but abandons that.

Thus in a thread speaking of Crowley's discrepancies, this would be one of import, and relative to Crowley's said 'attainments' such as Magister Templi etc...

to be continued....

 


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hadgigegenraum
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@wellreadwellbred

Thanks for the note....Yes books fall apart...even the best....and through it all, lo and behold, cross continents... from attic to basements ...Liber L vel Legis survived!

I always wondered about the Wanderer of the Waste transport of his personal library all over the place, I guess a good trunk was a vital necessity at one time...

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

i am glad you and others are having fun with these discussion~ as I concur with the fare...

When brothers fight, leaping laughter is the only possible outcome 🙂

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

It should be remembered that Crowley stated that he was following up on Blavatsky's mission, one where HPB did usher forth, poof, Buddhist texts, etc, but she called what she was bringing to the worlds attention as Theosophy. 

 

Yes, and this is exactly where I am at, the very beginning of this journey (and actually why I "stumbled upon" this discussion forum from internet searching this very same topic.

So, we now come full circle.

I have no wisdom on Blavatsky, for most my life I always assumed Crowley made her work "moot", until this what you mention dawned on me.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

I wonder if you are familiar with Kenneth Grant's Outer Gateways? Relevant to the recent complexion of our discussions is a chapter entitled, "The Madhyamaka and Crowley".

NO! 😯 

 

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Grant states that of old aeon doctrines only that of the Buddhist Anatta expresses total transcendence of duality. Grant then refers to Crowley's and HPB and states that while "Crowley claimed to have followed her work he did not base his work on anatta but upon the Hegelian dialectic"

😯 😯 😯 

Hegelian Dialectic is very tantric!!!!

The tantra of history! (which is why l love the "trail" historically of how these things are discovered.)

You are blowing my mind

please, continue 🙂

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Grant then qualifies Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka as a means of transcending phenomenal existence which he states that positivist systems can not provide and the Madhyamaka is based upon an "Absolute Zero" not a dialectical one as found in 0=2 formula, which KG notes that AC had in his essay Berashith confirmed the Absolute Zero, but abandons that.

Dialectic as an expression of this occurs in language, the historical discussions, what is discussed, the viewpoint, and then the resolution, collaboration, etc, so Hegelian Dialectic, from my POV, is all over Chp1 and Chp3

0=2 is not the Hegelian formula, the Hegelian formula is close to the 0,1,2.

0=2 is non dialectical (although it the ternary formula is "hidden" in 0=2) so for me the interpretation of 0=2 is the path of mysticism, not magick itself but still very important to magick.

Dialectics are a field of study in the Himalayan traditions, the BonPo still have an entire university dedicated to the study. 

So I think what we are getting it as that the "diamond" has been "leaking" somehow out of the Himalaya into the west.

From my POV, I believe Liber al Vel Legis is simply a "terma" of the Himalayan tradition. I am deeply skeptical that Crowley was aware of the full scope.

I believe, from the POV of the Himalayan tradition, that they "did" foresee their own collapse (China, 1959) like we see Crowley "worried about" in the West, and because their entire nation is built upon the traditions of the "terton" and "tulku", or reincarnation lineages, it is perfectly conceivable that specific Himalaya traditions, through magick, discovered a way to hide their insights and practice into a document in the west (Britain even, the first country to invade them) on the intention that because of the coming bloodshed and destruction of the monastic system in Tibet, the burnt libraries, etc, Liber al Vel Legis may be nothing more than a way to preserve information for the "tertons" who will reincarnate in the future in the west!

Preservation is not the only motivation for this, the prime motivation is simply transmutation of history, continually bringing "dharma" into the world from as many unique perspectives as their are unique minds.

Viewed this way, Liber al Vel Legis is just another 1,1,1 in a long lineage of Himalayan revelations, and perhaps essential for bringing dharma to the west.

Padmasambhava himself predicted that Tibet would be invaded and scattered to the winds, and the that dharma's future was in the west!

This is all fun speculation, i am offering no "certainty" by any means 🙂

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Thus in a thread speaking of Crowley's discrepancies, this would be one of import, and relative to Crowley's said 'attainments' such as Magister Templi etc...

It is conceivable that, though it may appear to Crowley as a form of "grace", certain lineage masters were "poking him", so he could very well have had incredible vast experiences of Sunyata, however he probably, like most of us, was unable to maintain that state.

let's continue more 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Also, isn't is friggin strange that Gerard Yorke represented not only the collected works of Aleister Crowley as well as the 13th Dalai Lama in the West?

That utterly blows my mind too!

What put Blavatsky on my radar specifically this year was learning that the 14th Dalai Lama wrote the introduction to the "Secret Doctrine" and verified her importance in this tradition.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

and through it all, lo and behold, cross continents... from attic to basements ...Liber L vel Legis survived!

That was 100% all viral marketing 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Kenneth Grant's Outer Gateways?

Acquiring this book is a very high demand, more than $200, $300 on Amazon.

Anyone have the old PDF? Or at least the chapter mentioned?

I've never studied Grant, usually stayed away from him because I was concerned he took himself far too seriously. Perhaps that was foolish of me.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

the goal of all tantra and dzokden in the Himalaya is complete and utter world peace, and all magick/tantra is in service to that goal

Okay. But this is a concept. Rigpa is free of concepts.

 "Unassuaged of purpose."

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

based upon an "Absolute Zero"

61. Ain. Nothing ... without twinkles or qualifications.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I always assumed Crowley made her work "moot"

He described her work as "encyclopedic," or "wonderful," or some highly-praising term(s), but he felt she had virtually no skill at organization of this material.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Grant then refers to Crowley's and HPB and states that while "Crowley claimed to have followed her work he did not base his work on anatta but upon the Hegelian dialectic"

To be fair to everyone, all work is upon the hegelian dialectic! But this had me thinking and reminded me, the "historical dialectic", as it plays out in Tibet and within Vajrayana, to the very day, and specifically around how "emptiness" itself is interpreted at various levels of transmutation.

This is known as the "two truths" the Rangtong view and the Shentong view of "self-emptiness".

Historically speaking, the "shentong" view of emptiness has been suppressed in Tibet, where as the 5th Dalai Lama burned the Jongtong Monasteries and replaced them with the Gelug tradition (Nagarjuna) which is the Madhyamaka you mention, a specific view, absolute 0.

However! Here is where it gets interesting, the suppressed view of emptiness, the Shentong view, is far closer to the Liber al Vel Legis view of emptiness, and shows that the "dialectic" is eternal.

This "eternal" state can be likened to a conversation, a union, a dialogue, a continual "resolution" between "compassion" and "wisdom", which is another way of saying "Nuit and Hadit", where as the duality, samsara, takes on a new form.

The lineage that introduced this view is also the very same and sole lineage for kalachakra tantra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong-Shentong

Why is that interesting in this regard? Kalachakra tantra's lineage is very very unique! The lineage is Shambala, the teaching comes from shambala, and shambala is where are the ascended "adepts" are, and where there is only one goal, one focus, and that is complete world peace. 

Kalachakra is a system of white magick and the lineage of Kalachakra is the only lineage in Tibet outside of the Padmasambhava lineage of the Nyingma, along with the Bonpo.

Hmmm!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Okay. But this is a concept. Rigpa is free of concepts.

Rigpa means knowledge, in the "gnostic" sense, knowledge through direct experience. Rigpa is free of concepts, but concepts are still part of the tapestry of experience, one has just transcended the duality within the concept.

Kalachakra tantra is not a concept, it is a tantra, a completely immersive experience with 732 deities.

Kalachakra tantra, has a "true will", an intention.

That intention, expressed in language, is complete and utter world peace.

I am not making any controversial claims about these practices! This is how they are explained to, although I may be putting it in my own simpler language.

Posted by: @shiva

61. Ain. Nothing ... without twinkles or qualifications.

 

Exactly, unite with thine art, so that all disappear.

The "conceptual" mind is the creative mind. Put back into proper harmony, all contradictions resolved, it has a beautiful function.

Transmutation, not transcendence!

Posted by: @shiva

He described her work as "encyclopedic," or "wonderful," or some highly-praising term(s), but he felt she had virtually no skill at organization of this material.

Well he was one to talk!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Also, just to remove any "conceptions" about the himalayans staying silent all the time, absorbed in sunyata, that's not what we see when we look at the traditions.

Both Bonpo and Buddhist have 12 years of university study each, going through the whole system. Teaching logic and philosophy, even argumentation, is intrinsic in these practices.

Buddhism itself in this regard is closer to an academic system than it is a religious system.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Pertinax
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@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Also, just to remove any "conceptions" about the himalayans staying silent all the time, absorbed in sunyata, that's not what we see when we look at the traditions.

Every Buddhist event or meeting I've ever been to has been like this. Lots of chatting over tea. It does seem, at least in the west, to be a fairly intellectual system. Here in Asia it seems more religious, less about talking theory and more about pastoral care and the ritual of temple life.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Oh C'mon Dom, surely its not that difficult, surely you are merely being compassionate for all of those stumbling on to this thread from search terms "what does book of law mean" 🙂

I make a prediction that we can use liber al vel legis as an historical predictive guide. Since the book was written in 1904, and it is 2021, therefore 117 years of history has passed, and therefore, that history should either falsify my prediction or remain consistent with it.

i.e. I am using prediction as in "reverse engineering"

I wasn't really following the thread but I did see your statement about you'd be disappointed if Liber Legis didn't involve a prediction of the internet.  Sorry I took that as a literal statement, was it not a literal statement?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

You can get Kenneth Grant's book's in the USA through JD Holmes, in the United Kingdom probably directly from Starfire to whom the publisher @Michael-Staley is a participant in these forums and has done an excellent job of republishing Grant's extensive oeuvre which certainly for years was dear and hard to find...

The books, from the beginning of their publication represent works of art in themselves that serve as creative reservoirs where Grant is most magnanimous in featuring the work of many others, and certainly Crowley, in a scope that certainly is of realms beyond...

With you interest in the East and Advaita, Starfire did publish a series of essays that Grant wrote in his twenties, back in the 1950's for obscure publications in India, where Sri Ramana Maharishi is featured in several sumptuous appreciations, long before Adviata has become known in the west. That collection is called "At the Feet of the Guru".

This perspective I very much appreciated as a lens that would emerge in the Typhonian Trilogies along side an inside perspective, not only on Crowley, but of Austin Spare and then contemporary occultist such as Bertiaux and Nema, along with maturing perspectives on Frater Achad's work and the role of writers such as Lovecraft, Machen, Marsh, and even Sax Rohmer!...

Plus the books have pictures, original artwork, with most certainly his wife Steffi's work within and as the dust sleeves without.. creating a certain silent resonance for what are catalogues of weird wonder amidst dizzying gematria...disorienting while at the same time orienting to other orients than mere terrestrial disorders...

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Well he was one to talk!

The A.'.A.'. curriculum offers the whole deal in a tightly wrapped box. I speak of the Libers in Class D. The work. The curriculum is organized and precise, and the funny thing is it works!

Having said that, it has been my experience (with myself and others) that the curriculum works really well up to 5=6, and then "the angel" will see fit to take up the instruction, and new (non-A.'.A.'.) subjects or concepts are likely to be introduced. This is not a matter of disorganization, for there are many Libers directed toward the Adepts but, after all, the idea is to chat with the angel so one doesn't need books and gurus any more.

The Classes A,B, & C, plus Commentaries, post cards, and telegrams, is where things might not be "organized."

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @pertinax

Every Buddhist event or meeting I've ever been to has been like this. Lots of chatting over tea. It does seem, at least in the west, to be a fairly intellectual system. Here in Asia it seems more religious, less about talking theory and more about pastoral care and the ritual of temple life.

Well it is very counter intuitive at first, but what we actually see are buddhist and bonpo monasteries in tibet, for 1000 years, engaged in fetishized debate!

It is hard to fathom at first, that a tradition that has (no god!) –only Sunyata as it's core teaching, which is, in essence, silent practice, eyes WIDE OPEN, and the debate, the chatter, is somehow apart of this transcendence?

Yes.

Chatter is all fine too.

All of it is transmuted into sunyata, but there is mind body and speech. each has its own relationship to sunyata.

Bring your 4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L, that too can be transmuted into Sunyata.

This is tantra, all cluster to exalt.

Every act, every word, every act, every thing is in the absolute state! 

Quick glimpse! https://youtu.be/VQv3u1tb1rw

 

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

I wasn't really following the thread but I did see your statement about you'd be disappointed if Liber Legis didn't involve a prediction of the internet.  Sorry I took that as a literal statement, was it not a literal statement?

If we take Dom for his word, (which I DO!), and he claims he has not been following this thread, he just saw one of my comments specifically, we actually see Dom coming into this conversation when we are reviewing language, words, equanimity, magick, and sunyata with perfect harmony and timing.

Sorry I took that as a literal statement, was it not a literal statement?

Shared text, two different interpretations! What does the text really mean? I mean what does it really really mean?

All text is empty of meaning. It means nothing!

But is that really helpful if we are communicating?

Anyway, sorry Dom!

I am digressing a bit because I am finding this conversation absolutely intoxicating, and your quick query here is perfectly in harmony with my inner life, and I hope my comments are doing the same in return:)

Yes it was a literal statement, however you were assuming my usage of the word "prediction" assumed some sort of psychic type medium, you mentioned a fella, what was his name? Edgar Cayce or something. 

I mean predictive in the "dialectic" sense, which I can use now in this conversation to describe it better to you because this conversation is evolving very quickly, synthesizing even, in the same detail as I am describing 🙂

Hegelian Dialectic can be used to predict historical outcomes. Not every detail, just the broad strokes. 

Hegel makes a prediction about the end of human history!

Karl Marx, also a dialectician (but not a very fun one!), also makes a prediction about the end of history.

My quest involved me looking at Liber al Vel Legis as a tantric dialectic, and voila' 

Liber al Vel Legis, viewed through twilight language as new form of tantric expression in language and prose, makes a prediction about the end of history!

EDIT: I am sorry how rude of me. Debate? Hegel?

TLDR:

Someone has a !. that is a thesis

Some one else has a response, a conflicting opposite idea, an antithesis

They fight, they battle, they eventually synthesize into a new idea, a 'synthesis'.

The new "synthesis" just becomes a new "thesis" and the process plows through history, every nation state, until the conversation concludes.

How does the historical conversation conclude?

Always, always, always in resolution 🙂

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Oh! How does a synthesis happen?

By turning soldiers into hunchbacks!

And hunchback into soldiers!

Repeat.

Duh 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Back on topic, discrepancies, Crowley, contradictions, etc

I am not sure if there is now some "default" position of the community, but I do know that there has been a lot of questions about "The Comment" itself in Liber al Vel Legis, as in "Crowley fumbled the comment". 

I believe, actually, the comment is one of the greatest lines in Liber al Vel Legis, and if you can read the comment in the meta language it was written in, it can help you read the text better.

The First Super Interesting and Sometimes Scary thing about the comment is, well, its 1904, right? And we can, as one option, view Liber al Vel Legis as non dual tantric dialectic that is initiating a new "era" of magick, (to me, synonymous with a new era of "language") that can be predicted to influence all media to come, and what do we see?

The first piece of media in history to have "leave a comment" with a "comment section" as a central instruction of the entire document, a feature that, in a social media internet universe, makes this Liber al Vel Legis unique in that feature alone!

But, that is just interesting, not the proof. The proof is in the text!

THE COMMENT.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The study of this Book is forbidden.

The first two sentences give the whole show away.

The contradiction is meta "DO what thou wilt" is one thing to suspend in the mind, while what ever "image" you have of Crowley instructs you TO DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE!

And what sort of image of Crowley comes to mind with this text?

It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading.

We all make "copies" in our mind, just a heads up 🙂 Destroy the image of Crowley and the idea you have of the Book of the Law, that is what this is saying!

Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire.

And what is the opposite of dialectic?

Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence.

hehe, when we apply emptiness to text, there are no contents in the book!

And what is the opposite of decentralized, peer to peer, open source do it yourself religious intiattic tantric system?

All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself.

Wait, so I can't discuss my thoughts, process all of this with the beautiful dialectical system it contains? 

There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

I have to isolate myself from my brothers and sisters and not share the glad word?

Love is the law, love under will.
The priest of the princes,
Ankh-f-n-khonsu

This is how the text, the three voices, like to play, tongue in cheek!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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The Dzokden, which is within the system of Himalayan tantra, I suppose the equivalent of the AA, the completion stage, the "third" stage, of Magick.

Dzokden meditation is peculiar when it comes to the eyes.

The Eyes are WIDE open, not just open, but glaring open.

And showing this in "images" (thangkas) or statues is important, depending on the deity or lama or guru in the thangka.

We see many images of padmasambhava, the prototype for Aleister Crowley, taking this fierce gaze, and we see likewise Crowley adopting this fierce intense "stare"

That is the stare of Dzokden!

And Padmasambhava is the Secret Chiefs of Secret Chiefs!

The "Hidden Guru" is part of the tantra!

Also the letter "A" is used , very important! I find this in the Bonpo School, but when the practice is translated into English, "A" is the summary! What does a copy of A look like? AA, hehe. 

images (1)
1
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2831
12

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

This is not a matter of disorganization, for there are many Libers directed toward the Adepts but, after all, the idea is to chat with the angel so one doesn't need books and gurus any more.

 

Indeed that is the point! 

"I am above you and in you"

I believe that is one aspect Liber al Vel Legis teaches us, the necessity of what I like to call the internal "library" or school. We already have all the teachings coiled inside of us, however, they need to also be "unlocked" by our cultural surroundings, go into "communion" with our local hierophants, in what ever shape they come, and once "opened" by them, the inner school should take over from there, so what you describe with the 56 degree does make sense.

and my apologies, I did not mean to degenerate the system by any means!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

You can get Kenneth Grant's book's in the USA through JD Holmes, in the United Kingdom probably directly from Starfire to whom the publisher @Michael-Staley is a participant in these forums and has done an excellent job of republishing Grant's extensive oeuvre which certainly for years was dear and hard to find...

I am really regretting what appears to be my completely false image of Kenneth Grant! Thank you for this and thank you for introducing this into the convo.

Are you apart of the Typhonian tradition? Where is the best place for me to begin? 

I really appreciate your help, and also this community for giving me the space to voice all of this, it has been locked up for 20 years, not a person in the world have I shared all of this with, and my clarity on it all has really been polished nicely by this convo, which is very therapeutic, and I don't expect everyone to read all of this, but thanks for the space!

And please, do a brother a favor, strike hard and low!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I did not mean to degenerate the system by any means!

I find a bit of degeneration after 5=5 (as briefly outlined). One Star continues the highly disciplined and effective work of the Outer Order, by continuing the monologue of the hierarchy and obeying orders of some higher adept. It never worked that way for me. The Inner Order grades are described properly, but the part where you "slap the guru" and get on without him/her telling you what to do. Take a look historically: Most Hot Zone Orders blow up when they try to manifest an "Inner Order" on the physical plane.

Note: "Slapping the Guru" on the back while saying, "Thanks. Maybe I'll see you around sometime.". In my own case, the Guru tried to slap my face ... with a fist! It did not connect, but our connection broke. But the same principle applies in both cases: Bye-bye.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Are you apart of the Typhonian tradition? Where is the best place for me to begin? 

Everybody here has some Grant, if not all of his work. The Typhonian Trilogies are 3 sets of 3 books. 9 total. You start with the first one. If you're asking about joining, you start with an email to Michael Staley at Starfire.com. 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

not a person in the world have I shared all of this with

And you are still alive and not locked up in a lunatic asylum. Here, it's different. All the other lunatics know exactly what you're talking about ... or if they don't, they know enough to argue with you, not just shoot you or lock you up.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Everybody here has some Grant, if not all of his work. The Typhonian Trilogies are 3 sets of 3 books. 9 total. You start with the first one. If you're asking about joining, you start with an email to Michael Staley at Starfire.com. 

Thank you, I've yet to read even one of his books and I just viewed the collection on Starfire. Wow! I had no idea! My goodness, those treachery of images in my mind has made me a poor researcher in this regard, I've kept Grant in the dark this whole time.

This one seems incredible, "The incoming Aeon of Maat", the letters between Yorke and Jones. I must have this. This is just my instincts, but I believe that Jones "key" of 31 is not just fundamental to Thelema, but I think this is a teaching that is also fundamental, even perhaps necessary, for the schools of the Himalaya, I think this may be a necessary "resolution" between the shentong/rangtong the "two truths" of Sunyata, and a necessary resolution between east and west.

I am going to be traveling, stopping over the UK for one day only, if the shop is in the London area it would be great for a walk in.

And these books are so hard to order! So hard to get a copy of.

Perfect, I haven't had that feeling since the 90's 🙂

I just read this thread, and caught this quote from Michael Staley.

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/forums-people/the-incoming-of-the-aeon-of-maat-publication-update/paged/2/

"For many years I have taken a great deal of interest in Advaita Vedanta, which I regard as fundamental to Thelema, and which I think is reflected in the first chapter of The Book of the Law."

Absolutely, not just the first chapter, but all three!

Is there a "non-duality of thelema" thread?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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A beautiful way to translate Liber al Vel Legis is the Heart Sutra.

We see some familiar sounding themes in the conversation between the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara and Shariputra, the first "disciple" of the Buddha and central to the Mayahana (Both Zen and Vajrayana)

And I am going to switch the "words" in this verse, replacing the word "form" with the word "text".

Shariputra, text does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from text.

That which is text is emptiness, that which is emptiness, text.

The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness.

This line of the Heart Sutra is very magical!

Far apart from inverted views, one dwells in Nirvana.

Below the abyss, all viewpoints have a "flipped" or reverse image in their minds of the transcendent, the supernal.

All images in the mind are "inverted" and Liber al Vel Legis, I believe, when viewed through non dual twilight language, is giving us tools to "revert", flip the image, REVERSE the image.

This does two things, are at least two that I have discovered so far. On the one hand, by "reverting" the images in our minds, which is very easy to liken like a mirror, we have "both" images now, one a reversal or opposite of the other and the "actual". (1 and 2)

This brings us to emptiness, (0), but also can help unlock hidden meanings, hidden teachings (termas) in texts. 

"Images" in the mind can be likened to ideas, any ideas in any form. 

All ideas are empty.

Liber al Vel Legis, all rites are reversed in 1904, hehe.

And this sweet emptiness, we can use language, the Heart Sutra tells us, and the Heart Sutra, like Nuit, wants us to be certain of this.

Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great transcendent mantra,
is the great bright mantra,
is the utmost mantra,
is the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering
and is true, not false.
So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra,
proclaim the mantra which says:
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

or if they don't, they know enough to argue with you, not just shoot you or lock you up.

 

Well at least strike hard and low 🙂

I hope you don't mind because this discussion forum is now acting like my diary processing all of this. I hope my presence here is not turning obnoxious!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56  

Well synchronicity city....so in reading your latest, referencing Frater Achad...Yes The Incoming of Maat is very important book and record, a record that not only features Achad and Crowley, but Gerald Yorke might be the real hero in the proceedings...now coming to light...Thanks Starfire!

These correspondences are important on many levels, but for those following Grant's work one, can trace, now from the sources, how Achad's work came to be appreciated in an evolving manner for Grant who devoted a chapter to him in Cults of the Shadow...and then much further references and discussion in subsequent tomes...

One is as mentioned before Outer Gateways, to which I recall in that chapter 'The Mahdyamaka & Crowley', Grant references  Achad, to which he says that Crowley never had access to texts of the Prajnaparamita school and of Nagarjuna, to which Grant references as a dialect that:

"is free of the positivism leading (as in Crowley and after Hegal) to further unresolvable conflicts, and it paves the way for the true formula of 93 which Frater Achad developed from his 'Word' of 1926-ALLALA, or, more precisely, LALAAL: BEING (AL) rests on NOT_BEING (LA)                                         NOT-BEING(LA) rests on NOT-NOT-BEING (LA LA AL)

The Supreme Triad therefore is LALAAL, 93, (LA=31;LA=31;AL=31)."  K. Grant, Outer Gateways pg.73  

Grant then follows this directly with a discussion of Sangsar, and its total absence as Self!

It is relative to the Tree of Life that Grant identifies Daath as the Eighth Sphere, the height as this is as far as humans can get and that thus what is considered the qliphatic abyss is for those who cling to objectivity and subject, rather than the pure subjectivity..........

That should get yah drooling!

93

HG


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Sanguine Chuck
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Is anyone here familiar with "The Jesus Sutras" discovered in China?

The Jesus Sutras were written to bring Christianity to the lands of Buddhism and Taoism in the 7th century AD. Their official name are the Jingjiao Documents.

They were just discovered, I believe, within the past 20 years in a cave in China.

This is interesting for two reasons.

One, there was this "other version" of the Great Game

(the game I misinterpreted in this thread https://www.lashtal.com/forums/writer/al-iii71-and-the-russo-japanese-war-of-1904/#post-116551 not long ago)

The Silk Road, was also a collection of all the world religions and systems, Hebrew, Islam, Buddhist, etc and there was this "co-mingling" between these traditions along the road they all met up , the Silk Road, the primary trade route.

This document is special because, failing to "convert" Buddhists or Taoists to Christianity using the "themes" taught in the west about Christianity, which is "happiness is found after death in heaven!" was difficult to compete with "happiness and Nirvana are here right now!" of the Buddhist.

So what these texts did was take themes in Buddhism, like emptiness and sunyata, and "themes" in Taoism, like the "tao" itself, and used these theme to explain the theme in Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingjiao_Documents

I believe that document is a really beautiful example of what Nuit wants us to do with all the traditions available in the world, all systems are a rosetta stone for Sunyata!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I believe that Jones "key" of 31 is not just fundamental to Thelema, but I think this is a teaching that is also fundamental, even perhaps necessary, for the schools of the Himalaya

There is a whole thread on The Aeon of Maat, and some (but not all) in relation to Jones. Some folks feel that they, in a way, have already touched bases with Maat. These folks are few and secret, unless the voice/spell their beans in some forum.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Is there a "non-duality of thelema" thread?

Not specifically that I know of, except for where this thread seems to be running (as AC's discepancies are resolved or attributed to koan status), but it comes up, repeatedly, in many threads.

Although AC clearly refers to non-duality in many places, it is not his major theme. Many people find they must tirn their eyes and ears toward the East (various sources) in order to bring the non-dual concept into play ... which, if successful, will trigger things to do with Heru-ma-chis, the Sphinx, and the resolution of the struggle between Horus and Set.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

"is free of the positivism leading (as in Crowley and after Hegal) to further unresolvable conflicts, and it paves the way for the true formula of 93 which Frater Achad developed from his 'Word' of 1926-ALLALA,

I will never use this word HOLY FUCK ever again in public ever again after this.

Holy fuck!

YES!

YES!

YES!

 

to further unresolvable conflicts,

This is what occurred, in my interpretation, within the rangtong-shentong "two truths" of emptiness, the "absolute truth" 0 interpretation of Sunyata begins to produce contradictions within the system (at least the system of Vajrayana non dualism).

Liber ALLA vel Legis is the actual title of the book applying Jones insight, and what an insight this is, because this view of ALLAH is the resolution of the two truths!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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