Crowley and his dis...
 
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Crowley and his discrepancies

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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

It is relative to the Tree of Life that Grant identifies Daath as the Eighth Sphere, the height as this is as far as humans can get and that thus what is considered the qliphatic abyss is for those who cling to objectivity and subject, rather than the pure subjectivity..........

Within the Vajrayana non dual perspective, Daath, knowledge, all knowledge is viewed as TRUE below the abyss, and FALSE above the abyss. This is another variation of the 0=2 theme, where as "2", the symbolic, the "fake" 1,1 is transcended through viewing all knowledge as empty, making its expression false.

Also, false means something a lot more than just "the opposite of truth" 🙂

False is the "art"

That should get yah drooling!

Well fluids are coming out of me at this moment, yes!

hehe Although I would not call it "drool", funny that the tantrics considered the actual physical "semen" to be irrelevant in sex magick, and likened the semen as a physical property to no more than the "drool" of a cow!

Thus, we find the first conflict to resolve between east and west, how to actually perform sex magick!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

These folks are few and secret, unless the voice/spell their beans in some forum.

These "folks" be Shambhala, the Kalki Kings, and this has been the "goal" for at least two thousand years!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Although AC clearly refers to non-duality in many places, it is not his major theme.

Yes it is! 

This is why I ask...Where did Crowley get it?

We are lucky in 2021, "non-duality" is a much simpler view to bring into the world these days, precisely because of all the development of the 20th century around consciousness, mind, language, philosophy, art, science.

In Crowley's time, I believe it may have been virtually impossible to bring "non duality" as a conceptual tool in language any other way than he did!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Although AC clearly refers to non-duality in many places, it is not his major theme.

To this point again, and OMG I am JUST SEEING THIS NOW!

But Liber Al vel Legis may be, and I say "may be", the most efficient and compassionate way to introduce non duality to the western AND eastern mind in 2021.

the easiest and "quickest" way to get it

to cross the abyss of duality!

The "east" needs an update on the "concept" of non duality too!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Technically, I am breaking almost every single oath I have taken with this discussion 🙂

Nice!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Another way to express "non-duality" as viewed from the "schools" of non-duality, using the "non-dual" language tool of Nuit.

And she made it so simple the whole if it is no more complex this this.

 

Chapter 1 is the "actual" teaching of non-duality.

Chapter 2 is the "conceptual" teaching of non-duality

Chapter 3 Is the continual resolution of the two teachings of non-duality!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Technically, I am breaking almost every single oath I have taken with this discussion 🙂

Nice!

Fun stuff: This is really not a concern at all, and I mean this both literally and figuratively. The secret chiefs, they LOVE it when we do this sort of thing 🙂

Om Vajrasattva hum!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Or as Hegel would have put it

Chapter One is the Thesis

Chapter Two is the Antithesis

Chapter Three is the Synthesis

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Or as Lao Tzu/Bagua would have put it

Chapter 1 is the Yang of the text

Chapter 2 is the Yin of the text

Chapter 3 is the tao of the text

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Yikes! Warning!

There is division hither homeward; there is a word not known.

Spelling is defunct; all is not aught.

Beware! Hold! Raise the spell of Ra-Hoor-Khuit!

Derrida and the deconstructionists have misinterpreted the runes, hehe the "ruins", they only see the "conceptual" non-duality, and do not see the "actual" non-duality!

https://www.philosophybasics.com/movements_deconstructionism.html#text=It%20is%20a%20theory%20of,text%20subvert%20their%20own%20meanings.

The deconstructionist movement has had a profound impact on society at the highest levels, academia, and we see the further "division" our black brothers have been wrecking, even in 2021 with all the division and separation and confusion over the "sexes" and gender identification.

Interpreting Liber al vel Legis in twilight non dual language as a dialectic, a methodology to predict the direction of history (the arc of justice is looooong!) also gives us a clear definition of the black brothers, also attorneys, hehe.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Yes it is! 

Oh? So this is why all Crowley fans are consciously pursuing non-duality? It seems like the majority is more concerned with sigils to get laid.

Crowley's main theme was "Talk to the HGA," with "Thelema" being the over-riding theme. He did not beat any non-dual themes up front. Non-duality is referenced in many places, usually under a koan-type cloak, but I fail to see how it was his "major theme."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

This is why I ask...Where did Crowley get it?

Well, it might be interesting to know this but, really, who cares? You do, of course, but not many others are ready to pack their bags and join you in this particular search.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Om Vajrasattva hum!

Please note that you are serial posting, even quoting yourself and replying. It is always a significant sign when people talk to themselves. This thread is about discrepancies (differences). I will personally start a Non-Dual thread so we can get the resolution in its proper place.


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ignant666
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

also gives us a clear definition of the black brothers, also attorneys, hehe.

Watch yourself there son.

Some may well be black brothers, or serve them, but there's the kind of lawyers that make no money too. When people ask why i don't practice law, my standard answer is "There's two kinds of lawyers- the kind that give good news to bad people, and the kind that give bad news to good people. Couldn't deal with either gig."


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Sanguine Chuck
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On the level of historical dialectic, of which the 20th century marked a significant "shift" in all the discussions happening throughout history, we see all the historical dialectics which began when human history began, begin to "mingle" at an increasing rapid rate, with the internet marking the final demarkation between this new age of humanity and how we communicate, and WHAT type of conversations we are having as any other time in history.

Crowley was the viral marketer for this, remember. What is the viral marketer's job? To influence, subtly, not directly, but through other influencers.

Who are the influencers of the 20th century in the west? what conversations did they initiate? and what were they?

There is the conversation of the "philosophical materialist", they see only see duality, but the "actual" duality (material reality).

There is the "mystic" in Crowley's usage, the "professional soldier", the "idealist", the fundamentalist religious adherent.

They only see the "conceptual" duality, (subjective experience).

Then, broadly and historically speaking, making vast generalization, we see the conversations from the east, the dualists who only see the subjective experience, and the conversations from the west, the dualists who only see the material reality.

these are all stories, myths, images, soldiers meeting up for battle, and the internet has now made it official.

We are in the apocalypse! yay!

All the deities have come to battle!

All the ideities, hehe

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

but there's the kind of lawyers that make no money too. When people ask why i don't practice law, my standard answer is "There's two kinds of lawyers- the kind that give good news to bad people, and the kind that give bad news to good people. Couldn't deal with either gig."

Yes I know this is true as well! It was just a little joke! But also, can I tell you about how many deals of mine they have killed? Oye!

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

I will personally start a Non-Dual thread so we can get the resolution in its proper place.

I shall not post about this any more until!

My apologies, and of course I am talking to myself, I am writing!

This is all coming in real time, i have no other place to put it, thank you

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

can I tell you about how many deals of mine they have killed times my wise legal advisers have saved me from disaster, bankruptcy, and poverty even unto the fifth generation? Oye!

Fixed that for you*, as the kids say; on with the non-duality  discrepancies plz.

__________

* And redlined it, as lawyers will note. No charge, no harm, no thing.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

This is all coming in real time, i have no other place to put it, thank you

Why, you are supposed to put it in your Magikal Record Book/Computer, written so someone else can understand it (not like Crowley), and submit it to your "superior" (a rough title for Thelemites to deal with) for review and commentary when he or she calls for it. If you have no "superior incarnate," then you may review your own work, later, at a time of your choosing, when you are in a "superior" mode and are ready to review it.

Otherwise, feel free to report new findings on the Non-dual thread now extant.

Posted by: @ignant666

No charge, no harm, no thing.

No karma, no blame. (Non-profit, free advise, not a production of The Black Lodge). Equilibrium in a basket.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Why, you are supposed to put it in your Magikal Record Book/Computer, written so someone else can understand it (not like Crowley), and submit it to your "superior" (a rough title for Thelemites to deal with) for review and commentary when he or she calls for it.

Yeah, I hear ya, but as I have said over and over, I am very sloppy, have broken all my vows, and this discussion thread at this moment is the best I got, and all of you!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

Fixed that for you*, as the kids say; on with the non-duality  discrepancies plz.

 

🤣

Okay fair enough! the discrepancies, well, allow me to re introduce the non duality, not as a non-duality, but as a legal rejoinder in perhaps clearing up the discrepancies?

Would not the non-dual view actually "view" the discrepancies as something else? Not as real discrepancies at all, but actually a "key" to understanding Crowley and his work?

I think the "non-dual" view actually redeems him, puts him a new light in history (at least for me), and it both demystifies him, and mystifies more than ever before.

And isnt it good news, rather than sad news, that Crowley is also a mess, screwed up, etc etc because we all are?

I mean, if he can do it, anyone can do it, right?

 

PS: unfortunately, one of my attorneys did not save me from poverty, but was the inadvertent cause of the poverty...I regress!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Crowley's main theme was "Talk to the HGA," with "Thelema" being the over-riding theme. He did not beat any non-dual themes up front. Non-duality is referenced in many places, usually under a koan-type cloak, but I fail to see how it was his "major theme."

Crowley's major theme was Liber al Vel Legis, and I view all other work doing nothing more than viral marketing Liber al Vel Legis.

The HGA is in my opinion the culmination of "western" style tantra up to that point in history, and it is an amazing tantra! It brought me to wisdom, but only because of the insight of liber al vel legis, which the HGA brought me to.

I do not think that the language of "duality and nonduality", as in specifically those words, was a thing in 1904, I do not think there was enough flexibility in the mind to refer to non duality in 1904 in any, hmm, how shall I put this?

There was no way to use the English language then in a "non-dual" way unless someone was using poetry or prose! Maths themselves did not even become non-dual until Godel, physics did not become non dual until relativity and QM. Deconstruction itself did not yet even begin! The Rite of Spring wasn't heard, Finnagain's Wake was years away.

It may have been simply impossible to have a conversation with brevity about the subject back then!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

Oh? So this is why all Crowley fans are consciously pursuing non-duality? It seems like the majority is more concerned with sigils to get laid.

No! This is why all Crowley fans are unconsciously pursuing non-duality, that is how viral marketing works! They will eventually get it! everyone gets it, eventually.

Posted by: @shiva

Well, it might be interesting to know this but, really, who cares? You do, of course, but not many others are ready to pack their bags and join you in this particular search.

 

It is the very topic of the thread! The discrepancies, that is why we should care!

Some suggest Crowley just "made it all up" (and he did from a non dual perspective, but that takes on different meaning), Some suggest Crowley was fallen in disgrace, Some say Crowley was a sex obsessed drug addict who never made it out of the abyss once he declared its existence.

If what I am suggesting is reasonable within the scope, I cannot find any evidence of the non dual teaching other than Vajrayana and Thelema.

Vajrayana gets us to the 'secret chiefs', the true AA, the true ascended masters, and if no one gave it to Crowley, then Crowley must have been in communication with these masters, in some form.

A is in the east, AA is in the west!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

clearing up the discrepancies?

It's sort of a matter of identifying the discrepancies (lies, hypocrisies, opposite statements, dates that don't match, etc) and then seeing if we can get him off the hook. Many times he seems to be firmly hooked and we cannot save him.

At certain, well-identified points (like in letters during his old age), Crowley was not operating from from non-dual position. He was an unhappy, foul-mouthed dictator who demanded "more money" while belittling the very people who were supporting him. The imp Crowley.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Would not the non-dual view actually "view" the discrepancies as something else?

There is nobody here that I know of who is operating in non-duality while perusing or posting. If I'm wrong (anybody?), let us know. I do not mean to consign anyone, or all, to eternal, dual hell, and I wish you (all) the greatest success in attaining to nada in your meditations, and even occasionally while wandering about in daily life.

You said you would drop the non-dualism (here), but you persist. I therefore resort to the blinfold maneuver whereby, on this thread, I will not see or respond to the concept.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Crowley's major theme was Liber al Vel Legis

He fell off a horse in China. The shock caused him to wonder, "What am I here for?"  The answer came back, To teach men how to invoke the HGA. He said this was his purpose. The Book remains sublime, yet controversial, even among many Thelemites. He used the Book as the "official textbook" of the course, available for free in the College Library (or when he gave one to every person he met) or for a price in the school bookstore.

We may disagree on his "major theme," but I am only left with the HGA scenario because I resolved Liber AL in a magickal censer in 1984.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

The HGA is in my opinion the culmination of "western" style tantra

Yes it is, more or less.(But tantra is an Eastern ter. What is tantra? Practice? Action? Sex? Formula? Use of Objects/Instruments? Magic? Which singe or hyphenated English word is best? I am familiar with Mantra, Yantra, and Mandala, but I do not use the word tantra, so let's see if we can get that concept clearly identified).

No it isn't, if one follows it out to its conclusion at Binah. As a matter of fact, it can be stretched out to Kether, just like Perdurabo did in the 30 AEthyrs in a desolate place.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

It is the very topic of the thread! The discrepancies, that is why we should care!

Let's see who the "we" are when I leave the room.

[click]

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @shiva

It's sort of a matter of identifying the discrepancies (lies, hypocrisies, opposite statements, dates that don't match, etc) and then seeing if we can get him off the hook. Many times he seems to be firmly hooked and we cannot save him.

At certain, well-identified points (like in letters during his old age), Crowley was not operating from from non-dual position. He was an unhappy, foul-mouthed dictator who demanded "more money" while belittling the very people who were supporting him. The imp Crowley.

doh! I had a false image of this thread the entire time!

It was fun tho, a little?

Posted by: @shiva

There is nobody here that I know of who is operating in non-duality while perusing or posting. If I'm wrong (anybody?), let us know. I do not mean to consign anyone, or all, to eternal, dual hell, and I wish you (all) the greatest success in attaining to nada in your meditations, and even occasionally while wandering about in daily life.

Well I was hoping those who are operating in both duality and non-duality would, but again, truly, this is the last post on this thread for me, as I truly confused, yea, confounded the space marks! Apologies

Posted by: @shiva

You said you would drop the non-dualism (here), but you persist. I therefore resort to the blinfold maneuver whereby, on this thread, I will not see or respond to the concept.

no no, i was not being defiant, just bringing the point of my original intention of the topic back into the thread, but i had a false idea the whole time.

to the nine hells with me! (and back)

Posted by: @shiva

We may disagree on his "major theme," but I am only left with the HGA scenario because I resolved Liber AL in a magickal censer in 1984.

Understood! My story only works as is 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

Yes it is, more or less.(But tantra is an Eastern ter. What is tantra? Practice? Action? Sex? Formula? Use of Objects/Instruments? Magic?

Tantra and Magick are two inter changeable terms. Alchemy, Magick, and Tantra are three interchangeable terms.

Psychology, Tantra, Magick, and Alchemy are four interchangeable terms.

I always prefer to use the word "tantra" so those in the west do not confuse the misconception of the word "magick" to what I am talking about 🙂

Posted by: @shiva

I am familiar with Mantra, Yantra, and Mandala, but I do not use the word tantra, so let's see if we can get that concept clearly identified).

Mantras are spells. Yantra/Mandalas are like the 22 Trumps or other alchemical creative works that the unconscious mind understands, but the conscious mind do not.

The philosophers stone is the body. The "wish fulfilling jewel". The mantra is the speech. All of these things unlock events in the body, the stone, which transforms. 

It is all very familiar to you already! You already know what to do with it! Probably far better than I!

Posted by: @shiva

Let's see who the "we" are when I leave the room.

 

Oh you will be back! Although you begged me to stop talking about it, you quickly followed up with a question about it, and eventually you will be back to read it.

I, on the other hand, have officially retired from the thread!

Love to you all, this was some great work!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Tiger
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Tantra is about Power
There are many Pathways
Not all paths lead to Rome
Some seek to unite with a concept of God
Some seek to unite with a concept of Emptiness
Some seek to understand
some seek to get in heaven or out of hell
Tantra seek Power
But in order to get this Power
The limited concepts of being must be wiped out - liberated

adding some discussion ingredients
The ego
duality
discrepancy
The Magickal Path
Tantric path
Left hand Path


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Sanguine Chuck
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Hi Tiger I am not really posting here, I am just here to tell you that the non dualities discussion has been moved to another thread if you would like to carry that thought over. https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/non-dual-concepts-within-thelema/#post-116810

This thread is for discrepancies, "differences" in the story of AC

The non duality thread is for the "no differences" in the story of AC 🙂

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Hi Tiger I am not really posting here, I am just here to tell you that the non dualities discussion has been moved to another thread if you would like to carry that thought over.

 

A reminder, there's a forum rule about multiple posts...just so any one thread doesn't look like someone's blog.   It also acts as a restrictor  against the excitable who tend to zealously ramble on about any manic nonsense.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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Shiva posted
“ What is tantra? Practice? Action? Sex? Formula? Use of Objects/Instruments? Magic? Which singe or hyphenated English word is best? I am familiar with Mantra, Yantra, and Mandala, but I do not use the word tantra, so let's see if we can get that concept clearly identified. “

Tantric grimoires are taught by teachers with empowerments.
Tantra is not popular syncretism.
It is not overly concerned with theoretical speculative elaboration and interpretations of existential existence or nonexistence, but looks to overcome limiting structures by working with sounds, movements, breath, sexual fluids and imagery; often triggering in those that like to bring things down to a mediocre level; the circumscription and mental modifications that see discrepancies and contradictions. The World, The Body, The Mind, Duality, are not a hindrance; Do what thou wilt.
The book should be destroyed after first reading.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @dom

A reminder, there's a forum rule about multiple posts...just so any one thread doesn't look like someone's blog. 

I know, my apologies to you and the forum yesterday. In the "heat" of the moment my muse took away with me. It was selfish.

I will be mindful not to do that again 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Discrepancies in the historical record, text and original manuscript via Crowley

This little discrepancy found in the "original writing of the Beast" clearly shows Crowley wrote the word "shit" instead of the word "spit" in 220,3:54. "Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your..." found in the original here. 

Compare yourself.

Screen Shot 2021 05 20 at 4.02.58 PM

I've presented the isolated "image" of this written text to a number of people, and I ask them to tell me what "word" this is, and so far 100% of all answers are "shit".

The only person who could have changed this word, from shit to spit, was Aleister Crowley.

This is the second discrepancy between the original written manuscript and printed versions of Liber al Vel Legis in the historical record that I am aware of.

The first incident, also Crowley, although the OTO received the brunt of the criticism, apparently was nothing more than simple human error, a mistake.

Where there is a mistake I suppose there is no true will, or is there?

The first "mistake" told us that Crowley is the one who changed a letter in the text.

This second instance tells us that Crowley himself intentionally changed a letter in the text.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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soz
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I think it's ambiguous. If the letter is "p", then why isn't the loop on the right of the letter closed? If the letter is "h", why is there such a long downstroke on the left? 

Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure that you're incorrect. 

Does anyone know of any expert graphologists who've examined Liber 31?


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Shiva
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Posted by: @soz

Does anyone know of any expert graphologists

Not me. But it would help us to examine the whole line, perhaps in conjunction with 2 or 3 lines (both above and below, in order to compare other p's & h's.


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belmurru
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It's a typical Crowley "sp," of which there are 38 instances in the manuscript of the Book of the Law that you can compare it with, including another "spit" in verse 42. 

botlf57v43spit
botlf61v54spit

I:14 Spell

15 space

16 space

18 splendrous

22 Space

27 Space, speak

37 spells

49 splendour

51 jasper

52 space

61 spices, splendour, splendour

 

II:3 sphere

26 spring

50 spangles

52 spectre

63 inspiration

64 splendour

70 spells

 

III:2 Spelling, spell

10 disposed

11 spears

18 spare

21 especial

37 inspired, speaker

42 spit

43 despised

49 blasphemy

54 spit

55 despised

57 Despise, despised

67 sparks

74 splendour

 

Crowley's "sh," by contrast, is very different. It never has the long descender, looking more like "sl." There are 165 instances of this combination, which I won't list. The easiest way to find them is to go to a single webpage entry of the text of the Book of the Law and use your browser's search function for "sh" and "sp," which should bring up all of the instances, highighted. At the wikisource text here, for instance - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Liber_AL_vel_Legis

Here is the first from verse 9, which clearly says "sled," according to everyone I've shown it to, none of whom know anything about Liber AL. 

botlf1v9shed

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @belmurru

It's a typical Crowley "sp," of which there are 38 instances in the manuscript of the Book of the Law that you can compare it with, including another "spit" in verse 42.

I thought something similar for 20 years. There are many reasons to think or assume that the word is spit and not shit. Many ways to falsify my claim. What you are suggesting is just one of a number of ways to falsify this, and I believe a valid position, very reasonable.

But what does it "look" like to you? Does it "look" like the word "spit" or "shit" if you were completely unfamiliar with Crowley or the text itself?

Would it only look like the word "spit" only if you already knew Crowley's other instances? Would it only "look" like spit because we've read the text thousands of times, said it over in our minds many times?

Consider what it "looks" like independent of all of our concepts of Crowley?

So that was how I falsified my claim. I showed this picture, (and do quite often now!) and simply ask people in my social circles, none of them familiar with Crowley, what they think the word is.

100% of everyone has said shit.

I've even asked them "well, what about the word "spit"?"

The strong consensus is that the shape of a letter "p" in the handwriting goes vertical above the horizon of the position of the letters, not below like we find with the letter "p", but do find with the letter "h".

So, I think it is reasonable to say that the word "looks" like, and this is an important distinction, it looks like H, but that does not mean the intention was "H" on Crowley's side yet.

But we do know for 100% certainty that the original word does LOOK like shit, before we conclude that it is shit.

Before we continue through the falsification, do you and I have a consensus that the handwritten word does look like "shit", even if the intention may have been "spit"?

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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belmurru
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Here is a Crowley manuscript "Shit," from his diary for 4 October 1923.

botlshitcompdiary4oct1923

The text was printed in Stephen Skinner, The Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley (Weiser, 1979), p. 210: "4.44 a.m. As usual, sleep imposs[ible]. Shit! who cares?"

You can see that the /h/ has no descender, and a tiny low rise to indicate that it is any different from an /l/ at all. 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @belmurru

Here is a Crowley manuscript "Shit," from his diary for 4 October 1923.

botlshitcompdiary4oct1923

The text was printed in Stephen Skinner, The Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley (Weiser, 1979), p. 210: "4.44 a.m. As usual, sleep imposs[ible]. Shit! who cares?"

You can see that the /h/ has no descender, and a tiny low rise to indicate that it is any different from an /l/ at all. 

just brilliant!!!!

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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belmurru
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

Before we continue through the falsification, do you and I have a consensus that the handwritten word does look like "shit", even if the intention may have been "spit"?

 

No, I can't agree. I think that's an absurd way to read a manuscript (I can hardly imagine what people might do with words taken my handwriting!). If I know the language, and then familiarize myself with the hand, and I had read the same word at the end of verse 42 as "spit," then I would read the subsequent example in verse 54 as "spit" too. 

Just asking random people what they think they see in scribbles taken completely out of context seems to me to be a waste of time. 

If you want to see, ask them what they think the diary example of Crowley's manuscript "Shit" says. If they say "shit," then ask them to compare them and explain how they are both "shit," and why the difference may not be best explained as the fact that Crowley wrote /sp/ and /sh/ in characteristic, but consistent, ways.  

I'm really not sure what insight you think you're getting from insisting on this mistake.


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @belmurru

I'm really not sure what insight you think you're getting from insisting on this mistake.

A very beautiful and very fair question! 

Why would the word "shit" be important to read this way?

Well, first we know that references to "scat" are found in liber al vel legis chp 3 already

Dung it about with enginery of war!

And the full line of the actual text in reference is

I spit on your crapulous creeds

Which does contain the word "crap", even though the historical epistemology of crapulous is I think just "sick" from over indulgence on alcohol, which, for me at least, gives me the wild shits.

So before we look at the intention of the text, and any claims about this "word" being a key to specifically understanding the full text with elegance, like a mathematician would use the word, do we have consensus that the "theme" of shit, crap, and dung is registered in some manner already in chp3, independent of any meaning we can prescribe to the text?

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Sanguine Chuck
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Since it has been many, many years since I studied Crowley's many writings, I am having a hard time remembering certain specific references to skat and also specific references to Crowley "rick rolling" a reader to discover some hidden meaning for the meaning only to be something foul, like piss, shit, or cum.

I am hoping that members of this astute community can help here? I am far away from my library at the moment where I can check.

I believe in the Equinox there is a Crowley poem that mentions the view of the Hindu tantric mocking some viewpoint, bragging about their ability to turn "shit" into a diamond or some other prose. I forget the name of this poem, any one recall?

That's a good reference for showing Crowley was already aware of the Hindu tantrik practice of attainment required the consumption of shit.

Also, I think it is in Knox Om Pax? Where he tricks the reader into discovering three latin words for piss shit and cum, anyone have it on hand? That's also a good reference to show that Crowley is certainly known to rick roll with foul language.

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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ignant666
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Slow down, compose yourself, and your posts before posting them, and stop serial posting, or you will get banned. Which would be a shame, but slow down, dude.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am having a hard time remembering certain specific references

This only gets worse with the passage of (more) time. I have found it to be auspicious if one merely skips the details (wherein the Devil dwells) and stick to the basic core principles that were/are revealed in thos boring details.

Of course, by adopting such a high-flying altitude means that I will lose the ability to conduct or transmit debate, revelation, or fake news, so it's best to lay off the specific references ... unless one's brain cells in that selected area are still intact, sharp as a sharpened pencil, and approved for release by the invisible hierarchy (i.e., the Secret Chiefs).

Destruction of memory cells (or confusion in the neurotransmitter realm) is going on all the time, even in young people. But the mass destruction phase begins exactly at age 40.5, more or less), and after that, one needs to re-wire to concept of how much they "know" in relation to how much they "forgot" or "never knew" in the first place.

The subject is comples and beyond the scope of this little forum thread.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I am far away from my library at the moment where I can check.

"At some (undefined) point, every initiate has to burn his/her books." This is an olde statement, reiterated by Frater Aquarius in his instructions. If you don't burn them, they can be sold ... or otherwise taken away.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

 

Where there is a mistake I suppose there is no true will, or is there?

The first "mistake" told us that Crowley is the one who changed a letter in the text.

This second instance tells us that Crowley himself intentionally changed a letter in the text.

 

Do you know any court secretaries or the like (people who write down dictations for a living)?   Have you ever had to speedily write down a lot of words whilst someone else dictates?  Think about it, you're whizzing away and trying to keep up and listen to the dictator, there's naturally going to be some creative back-pedalling etc even within that intense  process.  It doesn't necessarily mean that someone went back over it and sneakily documented it but even so, I'm sure if I was some secretary writing/typing a document for the boss I may later modify it to what I thought they said at the time.   
 
In Crowley's case the boss (Aiwazz) was gone and it was then too late to ask or it wasn't appropriate to ask down the line what the problem-word was. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @ignant666

Slow down, compose yourself, and your posts before posting them, and stop serial posting, or you will get banned. Which would be a shame, but slow down, dude.

I appreciate the concern amigo, truly! I am still a bit perplexed why everyone is referencing my state however, as in "compose" myself, slow down. Shiva in another thread mentioned despair watching me "melt" down. Where is this coming from? Yesterday I went for a long lovely 4 mile run on the beach in santa monica, and last night celebrated a lovely dinner with a friend. My days this past week have been spent laughing. I am okay! No one knows me, how can they tell my state of mind?

I do have a tendency to write fast, so I apologize for volume, and my intention here on this forum is 100% in good faith, I believe I am bringing something of value here, and if it doesn't look that way yet, it will later.

And, you are correct, it is always a great idea to "compose" myself truly, stay calm, stay in the center of the hurricane.

just so no one is worried, I am safely in the center of the hurricane but please feel free to remind me 🙂

Posted by: @belmurru

ust asking random people what they think they see in scribbles taken completely out of context seems to me to be a waste of time. 

Not if you want to see what the word just "looks" like without any bias of the text. It's far from a waste of time in this regard, it is just using empiricism for the purposes of falsifying the claim that the text does or does not look like the word shit to a reasonable observer.

Posted by: @belmurru

If you want to see, ask them what they think the diary example of Crowley's manuscript "Shit" says. If they say "shit," then ask them to compare them and explain how they are both "shit," and why the difference may not be best explained as the fact that Crowley wrote /sp/ and /sh/ in characteristic, but consistent, ways.  

 

Then that invalidates the falsification, because I am not asking what the word "really" is. See the difference?

Sure, it could be just the "chance shape" of the letter, it accidentally looks like shit, I just want to know if that is what it looks like in an objective way, by asking others with no knowledge or bias, what it looks like. Technically, asking all of you would be a completely corrupted exercise for this purpose, right? We want to be scientific, we don't want to fall into delusion in this territory.

This falsification does not determine that this word is a key or anything, it just means that to assume the word looks like "shit" is reasonable.

To determine if this word really is a "key", we just need to look at the instructions in the text itself, which do specifically reference to the shape and letter.

I was hoping to build this out with you, in a dialectic process, so we can build consensus on each layer, but I am not sure how to have that conversation within these forum rules, so I will build the case here in one post, and then I will not post any more for the rest of the day, hoping that makes its way past the censor here.

There are a number of lines in Liber al that mention the mysterious "letter"

My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit.

Nuit is both crystal clear in her instruction not to change a letter, and also crystal clear in her instruction of what to do if there was mistakenly a change in a letter, consult RHK.

But she repeats this over and over

Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.

and after that line, interestingly, Nuit says 

The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them.

Bowels, we have been told, means "womb".

Well, bowels also mean where our poop comes from and the child of our bowels is also shit. I'm not saying that is the "proof", not by any means, but it sure is consistent with this theme.

Next, it's Hadit turn to cover the mystery of the changing letter.

The stops as thou wilt; the letters? change them not in style or value!

And now, what does the "wisdom" of RHK have to say on the matter?

This book shall be translated into all tongues: but always with the original in the writing of the Beast; for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine.

Note that RHK is mentioning the CHANCE shape of the letter.

Surely we can all agree that the "chance" shape of the letter "p" that Crowley wrote can look like "h", and even without intention from the author.

The chance shape, interpreted at face value, is a "mistaken" shape.

So there is a lot of instruction in this text about the changing of one letter, even if it is mistaken, this is addressed.

Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in its failure is a key also. And Abrahadabra.

This text can be vaguely interpreted as "failing" to do something, and within the failure, is a key. Failing to do something implies a mistake. 

It shall be his child & that strangely. Let him not seek after this; for thereby alone can he fall from it.

This text is saying that the key shall be his child in a strange way. The child of the bowels is shit. The key to the text is strange, indeed!

Now me personally, I would never expect the word shit to have any value, but I am not decoding my text, I am decoding Crowley's text in paralanguage, and the same paralanguage the text informs us to use.

So shit, dung, and crap...why are these words important to Crowley?

Well, Crowley tells us that in his work "The Winged Beetle"

The winged beetle eats “dung” and is notable for rolling a ball of dung.

In “The Winged Beetle”, there are 11 references to the word “dung” in the poetry, Crowley gives ELEVEN unique ways to interpret “dung”.

Specifically, this one line however rings volumes

“More, thou mistakest in thy mind of mist

Matter for man, and dung for alchemist.

 

This line of poetry is using dung as an example of what the alchemist transmutes.

Using shit for transmutation is not a new concept.

In hindu tantra, attainment is tested by the initiates ability to eat actual shit.

What is this an attainment of?

Sunyata, emptiness. Recognizing the underlying purity in everything.

This is not a controversial claim I am making here, and although I have been initiated into Vajrayana Buddhism, this was recent, and I have been instructed how to view "purity" in the light of "defilements", this is also all over the internet if anyone researches themselves.

So, why is this the secret key?

Well, this book is written in para language, and every single line in the text is a riddle of some kind, and we know this because the text tells us this and you know you found the key when you can open doors with it.

If the "key" is Sunyata, emptiness (Binah in Crowley's system), then ALL of the text would continually repeat that same message)

And that is what we get when we follow the language!

Chapter one is an actual teaching of sunyata, told to us in the plainest of language with mathematical elegance.

Chapter two is a new way of arriving at sunyata through language

There is a "key" for each in each chapter.

So then I can make a prediction, I can predict that if the key in chapter one is, and I arrive at sunyata (binah, as a state of experience, not a reference to a concept), and I arrive at Sunyata in another way with another key in Chapter 2, that means Chapter 3 must also contain a key to understanding Sunyata, Binah, in a different way.

And that is what "shit" gives us.

Now since the text is teaching us to arrive at emptiness through text and words and letters themselves, the ordeal here is not hard like the hindu tantric.

Can you see the word "shit" as empty of all meaning, without seeing shit?

That is pretty profound. This text can take you into Sunyata when you read the language.

The Secret Key of it All is Shit.

Now, is this secret key consistent with Crowley's humor? 100%

is it the first time he has done this?

No it is not, there is precedent.

Can we use Occam's Razor? Of course we can. 

Is it possible I have projected "The highest possible teaching there is", Sunyata, onto Liber al Vel Legis?

Of course it is! That is part of the joke, it does not matter if it is my own projection, I have achieved Sunyata through the text!

Okay, this is my last post for the day!

Cheers

 

 

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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Shiva
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Oh, Lord, and Lordy-be. I am speechless and likely to remain that way.


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soz
 soz
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@sangewanchuck56

If you remove all the "I"'s from the shit do you end up with ShT?

"Bowels" in poetry can refer to something other than the colon or the womb; a deep desire in the subconscious?

I'm surprised to see that after your often interesting posts you sprung this on us: "The key to the Book of the Law is 'shit'. "

I doubt that any of us will come down with pestilential diseases from reading that, but I hope that there aren't any "lurkers" who are misled by your discovery.


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Tiger
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The sub personage hijacked the mere blessing in the ritual of the outer circle, for the dipping of feet into the stream,
and went straight into the ocean of shit, rolling in the dung, and therefore needs no further inner initiation.
Lost his Center
or never had one
so here, telling it like it is.


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soz
 soz
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Wow. My apologies if I've highjacked the thread, but I haven't lost my Center.


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Tiger
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@soz

i thought it was evident i was talking about beings like sangewanchuck56 that go to 1 buddhist outer ceremony and think their rlung, Khorlo,Thigle,Semde are all in order and run with it to found a market with out taking the inner Kalachakra initiation.

sorry soz i wasn’t talking about you or your post.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

Oh, Lord, and Lordy-be. I am speechless ... [etc]

The above three (3) posts between Tiger et Soz have restored my speech center.

LAShTAL is a place in cyberspace where folks who are interested in AC can go to post (Real not Fake) News (new things, stories, discoveries, books) and to Discuss matters related, even tenuously sometimes, to said Aleister.

What does not appear in The Guidelines, or in any promotional or descriptive way, is the function of a Psi-co-logical Laboratory. Some people come here and settle in ... for a decade or more. Others drop in or drive by, perhaps a solo performance, perhaps a recurring nightmare vision.

Everywhere, especially in the transient  visitors, we are offered the unique opportunity of observing, even interacting with, various psychic ("pertaining to the soul") conditions, especially those demon-strated by spiritual aspirants, particularly those who have a personal agenda.

Note the word agenda. It is not Will. If one does their Will, then nobody's gonna say Nay, Neigh, or Nyet. If a lotta people say Neigh, then comes the time when the subject begins to use alternative logistics to make or score their point.

When the point becomes revealed as I am praeter to you, and especially when it comes time to cast personal degradations implying a lesser status ("go to hell"), then the Case History can be completed and submitted to some Journal.

Then we can return to the dual (discrepant) nature of the Crowley phenomenon.

 


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Sanguine Chuck
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Closing thesis: Crowley and his discrepancies.

Hello everyone, I hope you all enjoyed your weekend. 

Here in Los Angeles, where the weather is beautiful and the girls are pretty, the first “veil” of covid lifted over the city, so there was lots of intermingling for the first time in almost 18 months, lots of hugs and kisses and thrills and leaping laughter, lots of sun!

I was having so much fun one evening I went with the current and enjoyed an adult alcoholic beverage. 

Well 3 actually. 

It could have been four with the karaoke, but I stopped counting by then.

I don’t consume alcohol much in my life, while I always have silly fun on alcohol (I would be your classic happy drunk) I get reminded the next day of why I don’t drink much, the hangovers!

Perfect, I thought, I will get to test how my “shit” is after a night of drinking, seeing the effect of the word “Crapulous” and the revelation of the secret key has on my very bowels. 

Honestly, alcohol always gave me the shits the next day!

So I tested it on hangover day, which itself was utterly delightful, and I did my duty. 

I looked down before flushing, and saw a beautiful healthy golden floater, seemingly unaffected from the night of drinking. I didn't get the shits at all.

And this beautiful pure state did not go away, at all. 

This beautiful pure state that you all helped me to remember, to remember what it is like again, how it can be found in the dynamics of our conversations.

And this pure state did not leave me, not when I was hanging out with others, chatting about nothing, drinking, singing, having fun, being silly, being human. 

And my shits were golden!

Everything is in the absolute state.

This beautiful teaching of Liber Al vel Legis, and the dharma path of the himalaya, shed I believe remarkable light of the “actual” history of the beast, and gives us new light with which to view the “discrepancies”, whatever they would be.

I now view Thelema and the Vajrayana and BonPo as one tradition, extending itself through time, keeping up with the “historical dialectic” as it evolves through history, the 20th and 21st century.

While I used to think that Thelema itself was “dead” from a historical perspective (meaning that whatever tradition it had, it already lost) I now think it is possible Thelema has yet to begin! The Dharma is in the West!

So whatever “discrepancies” we find in the historical record, whatever mistakes were made, real or planted, imagined or perhaps even “magicked” into our perception by this great trickster Crowley, must now be balanced with the understanding about the burden Crowley carried in his mind.

Crowley knew he was carrying the entire burden of the historical dialectic time spirit zeitgeist on his shoulders, that his “word of the Magus” was the “seed syllable” of the new aeon, a new era of human history where our conversations would completely change.

The magick of Crowley’s aion truly is to “Create as we speak”.

This could have no real meaning until this point in history. That is the freaky part!

What’s more, Liber Al vel Legis contains a remarkably simple way to communicate non-duality itself, on multiple levels, both highly intuitive and creative to highly mathematical and rational.

As these conversations here on Lashtal are like a proof, we can see how concepts about non-duality are very very tricky, it is just as easy to delude as it is to enlighten, and this has been true historically for all traditions, east and west.

Just how do you communicate this stuff? How do you pass it on, generation to generation, when the very discovery of Sunyata is so very very tricky.

The formula 0,1,2 is just that, a formula that can be used to not just arrive at sunyata, it is also a methodology to map out human psychology and human communication using non-duality.

0,1,2 can be mapped to things like game theory and cognitive science as seamlessly as it can be mapped to the Tao Te Jing.

Nuit’s tool is programmatic!

The fact that the paralanguage of 0,1,2 is the first “historical” evidence I find of this puts Crowley on a new level of genius for me.

I learned the paralanguage of 0,1,2 elsewhere, 20 years ago, not from Liber al Vel Legis.

I came to this discovery of both the experience of transcendence as well as the paralanguage of 0,12 from  other sources, but all of them were themselves products of the 20th century, people like Leary, RAW, Bucky Fuller, and especially Morehei Ushiba. My interests were not “magick” but psychology and design.

When I first learned it close to 20 year ago, I thought it was just a coincidence that the first Chapter of Liber al Vel Legis “appeared” to me to be written in this language.

Although I found it personally very entertaining or fun to see this “voice” in the text as I read it at the time, I didn’t realize that I had “two keys” , Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, already, I just didn’t know it.

I didn’t know it until this conversation!

I only was able to discover this third key, which helped me understand that I already had two keys already, and really the “key to it all” because now the full system is decoded, and finding the third key is like the final “proof”, or the golden ticket in the chocolate bar as Willy Wonka would do, and all of this BECAUSE of this discussion with you all.

I do not see any other way this would have occurred, because I was not looking to find the secret key, nor do I have any need to find it either. I already have the paralanguage of the system.

Through this conversation, we literally stumbled upon it together. I swear to you this is true!

I was simply following the paralanguage and interpreting it all in real time with the flow of this conversation, using the dialectic to “test” my concepts in real time, I had no idea this was to turn out the way it did, absolutely amazing!

This conversation definitely took me personally up a notch in my own personal levels of understanding, and wisdom.

I have been working with this paralanguage for almost 20 years now, I have a very deep evolution of this language in my work, it has nothing to do with Liber al Vel Legis or the occult at all, it has practical real world value, a true “war engine”, a way to work with non-duality in a practical way that only leads to continual resolution, very elegant.

My work currently puts me in the middle of solving very complicated problems online, things like online misinformation, online harassment, fake news troll farms, putting out “digital wildfires”, things like that.

This is where I take paralanguage as a design principle, and I was really disappointed I did not get trolled here.  

I must confess, I would have enjoyed testing that with trolls along with the rest of the conversation, that would have been a very entertaining show indeed for everyone!

I was not expecting this discovery, never in my wild imagination, I am going to sit on this discovery and conversation for quite some time, truly appreciate the full implications of what this means.

My exercise here was also inspired by a dear friend of mine who discovered a paralanguage in the FreeMasonic architectures through history. 

He got his PhD from Cambridge for that thesis, the theme that secret societies put these “paralanguages” into mediums, architectures, art works, etc for the purposes of advancing society through the arts and sciences, inspiring various “hero’s journeys” through individuals wading through the strange symbologies, arcane texts with mysterious implications, a form of introducing a conversation in society, just like we see that the first Rosicrucian Order was a “fake”, yet it created a true Rosicrucian Order and tradition in the west.

I decided to somewhat retrace the steps he had proposed with his thesis, but with Liber al Vel Legis, a book, instead of a library or a cathedral, and the “key” I’ve developed for 20 years, 0,1, and 2, and voila! 

So I am really proving my friend’s thesis here as well as my own I suppose.

Liber al Vel Legis is such a document, and this I believe verifies Crowley in some unique way in the history of art and more importantly literature, but I am not the expert in these areas so much more work to do!

Posted by: @shiva

Oh, Lord, and Lordy-be. I am speechless and likely to remain that way.

Well earned! Hard Won! Love you brother!

Posted by: @soz

if you remove all the "I"'s from the shit do you end up with ShT?

Oh my goodness, the text is revealed and already someone wants to change just one letter! 😆 

Well, Nuit would tell you “What does the word look like when you remove an “i”? and thus, you never needed to ask the question.

"Bowels" in poetry can refer to something other than the colon or the womb; a deep desire in the subconscious?

Well of course, in poetry “bowels” could mean any number of things, that is the revelation in chapter 2, symbolic language and the multiple ways it can be interpreted in a creative way, and the “paralogic” of this type of language.

Poetry can never be “misinterpreted”, it merely has many ways, many levels of possible interpretation. 

But this “misinterpretation” of words and text, look at it from another way, in the classic Alfred Korzybski sense, these same levels of possible interpretation that things like fiction, art, poetry allow, create “confusion” in the real world of practical affairs if we “misinterpret” what is “poetry” for something that is rather logical, objective, or just “written” in a different paralanguage.

We see this play out when two people are having a conversation about “fish” and how much they love “fish”. Yet one man was talking about his love of pets, and the other his best dishes and meals to make for dinner parties. And they have no idea they are even having two different conversations about entirely different things.

This is the “treachery of language”.

Liber al Vel Legis is communicating this to us through paralanguage via a conversation that Nuit and Hadit are having with each other, in the form of a dialectic. 

The dialectic is the paralanguage.

I'm surprised to see that after your often interesting posts you sprung this on us: "The key to the Book of the Law is 'shit'. "

Me too! I had no idea where this magickal conversation would take us, because with intention I applied the paralanguage of liber al vel legis, which is about conversation, to our conversation, and low and behold!

I doubt that any of us will come down with pestilential diseases from reading that, but I hope that there aren't any "lurkers" who are misled by your discovery.

Anyone who takes Liber Al Vel Legis literally, especially the comment where fears of “pestilence” are the source of your concern, is misreading the text and thus are having their wills shaped by whatever concerns they have about what “pestilence” means to them in their minds, which is not how “pure will” is defined in the text. 

This is what the text shows us, the distinction between the “definitive” meaning of text and the “symbolic” meaning of text with all of its multiple layers.

How can anyone get misled by this conversation unless they are already attached to their own images of Crowly or Liber al Vel Legis? This conversation helps us get unattached to our concepts, language, and text, it is all empty of meaning.

The discovery of the secret key is the discovery that the text is empty of all meaning in its natural state, that text itself is a secret key to the easy discovery of sunyata, equanimity.

 The text is the same for all of us, we do not argue that the text is the text, we argue over our “concepts” about the text!

The nature of our concepts in duality is to FIGHT, battle.

The nature of concepts is to fight.

In our projections onto the concept, we confuse that our nature, human nature, the natural state, is one of conflict and duality.

Liber al Vel Legis is the liberation of that.

It is human nature to collaborate, and the nature of concepts to battle!

If we identify with our concepts in anyway, especially in a non-dual conversation, we will quickly come to face that very real truth.

Everybody poops!

We are all in this shit together!

This conversation leads anyone reading closer to the discovery of sunyata, I am not worried 🙂

And it is simply not possible Crowley was not aware of this paralanguage, for the discovery of it is very very funny, as well as a powerful self teaching tool, and if Crowley was not aware of this, and all of this is nothing more than my own projected fantasy, that would make me funnier and smarter than Aleister Crowley, and I can assure you that is not the case!

Posted by: @soz

Wow. My apologies if I've highjacked the thread, but I haven't lost my Center.

Oh my goodness, see how easy it is to defensive when online? 

We don’t know what is really occurring in the minds of each other, this is “hidden” from us. 

We forget that we are all wearing a mask on this discussion forum, and we paste our script into the discussion, playing our “parts” in the exchange like actors on a stage.

Yet we can use this same medium to “test” our concepts, with each other, online, so we can either see our delusion, or see more clarity.

This paralanguage which makes all of this possible is in the text of Liber al Vel Legis, and this is the first instance I can find in the historical record of the 20th century of a conscious intentional usage of this paralanguage, 1904.

So, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose your center. 

At the very center of the sphere is nothing. 

Therefore, there is nothing to lose!

So roll with it!

To use O’ Sensei's “paralanguage” as applied to physical movement in Aikido, you cannot lose your center if you roll like the sphere, just keep rolling.

The sphere will eventually encounter a square and a triangle, and thus, around the sphere is every possible movement.

In “paralanguage”, in Aikido you would say that, in relation to human movement, the sphere is the non-directional force, the square or cube is the “uni-directional” force, and the triangle is the “omni-directional” force.

Those physical forces in Aikido also exist as psychological forces in conversation, as well as the “actual” truth values experienced by everyone in the conversation, because the words have “objective meaning” or definitive meaning, various interpreted meanings, and then the resolution of both.

These dynamics are in the paralanguage of Liber al Vel Legis.

Posted by: @tiger

The sub personage hijacked the mere blessing in the ritual of the outer circle, for the dipping of feet into the stream,

and went straight into the ocean of shit, rolling in the dung, and therefore needs no further inner initiation.

Lost his Center

or never had one

so here, telling it like it is.

 

Reading that in paralanguage was pretty powerful, it almost knocked me off my center, for tears of joy began to swell, in my throat, in my actual state, sobbing, chills up my spine, such beautiful text you write, truly!

Posted by: @tiger

i thought it was evident i was talking about beings like sangewanchuck56 that go to 1 buddhist outer ceremony and think their rlung, Khorlo,Thigle,Semde are all in order and run with it to found a market with out taking the inner Kalachakra initiation.

Pretty close! The kalachakra found me.

I was already in the stream, I jumped in 20 years ago. 

The actual initiation took me to the ocean!

And I don’t disclose what direct lineage I am with because I don’t want to embarrass them, c’mon amigo!

But I don’t mind sharing with you brother, it was Robert Thurman who is responsible directly for “converting” me into Tibetan Buddhism and teaching me in the very beginning, and the tradition I have received initiation into is within the “Rime” tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, meaning I can continue to study and learn and take various empowerments within the entirety of the Himalayan traditions, including the BonPo.

As with all empowerments, not just the Kalachakra, they can all be taken as a “blessing” by the adherent, or they can be taken as an actual initiation, where the “samaya” and the inner initiation is.

Seeing this choice between two different ways to take the Kalachakra Ritual, I choose both!

Again, we see the paralanguage within the body of the ritual, for there is the definitive meaning of the ritual, an initiation, and then there is the provisional, temporary meaning of the ritual, a blessing.

The “two truths” is still a very rich “disagreement” between the six schools of dharma from tibet! The two truths are another expression of this paralanguage.

This is where I believe Liber al Vel Legis may, just may be very important for those schools, because it is the formula of the two truths, and their continual resolution, and sometimes I cannot tell if some but not all schools have forgotten about the resolution of the two truths, that both are necessary for arriving at the pure and natural state!

I am richly in the deep practice of it all, deeply emerged in it 24/7 and I shall never stop, for it is the most beautiful and glorious art I have ever discovered in my life, and I don’t know how I would have discovered as I did were it not for Robert Thurman, in some ways I view him as my “root” guru. 

That is what is beautiful about the Rime tradition, I can also have many root gurus!

Personally, I believe Robert Thurman is the highest western adept (white guy), and if anyone seeking understanding more of the vajrayana, his great lectures and videos are all over YouTube.

sorry soz i wasn’t talking about you or your post.

Happy to see you clarified the definitive meaning of your text to her, while she lost her “provisional understanding” through the “treachery of text”, she was suffering and you alleviated!

The paralanguage of Liber al Vel Legis gives us these kind of insights into the interactive psychology inherited within the text, all of it, all the time.

If we look at the natural state of text as “empty”, the first we notice is our own projection on what the text means.

If we don’t notice that the text is empty, we confuse our concept of the text as the real definitive meaning, not realizing it is merely our own personal reaction.

And we also fail to see the natural state of all concepts is conflict itself, all concepts are in conflict when believed to be true! The wars truly are in heaven.

And if we are not aware of this dynamic, we project the natural state of the concept onto the natural state of each other.

So online, we have an opportunity, we need each other to be able to exchange our concepts from the battle, and then back into the resolution, to be able to make mistakes, come into correction, resolution, quickly!

 

Posted by: @shiva

What does not appear in The Guidelines, or in any promotional or descriptive way, is the function of a Psi-co-logical Laboratory. Some people come here and settle in ... for a decade or more. Others drop in or drive by, perhaps a solo performance, perhaps a recurring nightmare vision.

Everywhere, especially in the transient  visitors, we are offered the unique opportunity of observing, even interacting with, various psychic ("pertaining to the soul") conditions, especially those demon-strated by spiritual aspirants, particularly those who have a personal agenda.

Note the word agenda. It is not Will. If one does their Will, then nobody's gonna say Nay, Neigh, or Nyet. If a lotta people say Neigh, then comes the time when the subject begins to use alternative logistics to make or score their point.

 

I love this new policy! But please know brother, you were perfect and everything in this conversation was perfect and this is just how it needed to happen.

This conversation was literally magickal.

If anyone does not get this yet, please learn to love it 🙂

Okay everyone, this post closes my participation in the “Crowley and his discrepancies” discussion. 

And I am going to be posting my closing thesis in the “Thelema and Non-Duality” right after I post this.

This means that I will be “serial” posting! However, in advance my defense is that I am breaking this rule of “no serial posting” to actually “keep the rule” of the discussion thread, which is “No conversations of non-duality on the “discrepancy” thread!”

So this paradox is resolved, hehe!

I may be gone for a bit, I have a few “war-engines” to focus on, but will always check back in to say hello.

I believe my true will here is complete, and its result, the child, is this great conversation and meeting with you all!

Big Love

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
(@hadgigegenraum)
Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 344
 

@sangewanchuck56

Great post!

While my intention is to not talk overmuch here, I do recognize your thesis as a very important contribution, one so great that a prominent member here has been caused to experience a "speechless" state, one albeit that did not last, but at least perhaps he got a taste of what he has been been serial preaching for years...without seeking old aeon assistance of a "snitch" as was the case in a parallel thread to this...a non dueling dojo indeed.

Now that you have earned a certain distinction here as a pest, I will not spit nor shit on your enthusiasm, Sanguine Chuck, I think Orson would be proud to be an avatar here in the war of these worlds or words, but oh well, might I remind you that the proper title of The Book of the Law is Liber L vel Legis, not the "al Vel" variant...but what the Hey!

93

HG

 


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