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the_real_simon_iff
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Let go of that ego, Rich!

Every hour here might become a day late for the books...

Love=Law

Lutz


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Let go of that ego, Rich!

It's more a case of the ego not letting go of "Rich".


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Sanguine Chuck
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@sangewanchuck56

Then buy the books, and then report back!

Kind sir, that is not a magical request, that is direct marketing. And I'm not your target audience for that endeavor. I've utterly moved on from Thelema and Crowley, and am only here for the chicks and comrades, and a few key discussions on Liber Al, perhaps 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson


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hadgigegenraum
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@sangewanchuck56

Great, the waiter is coming around with hors d'ouerves...this thing with Richard happens every year at this time...an old fever it is, but the pamphlets will be free, good luck with the chicks...


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Shiva
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image

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Jamie J Barter
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is it not written "All this and a book to say how thou didst come hither..."?

And is it not there also written "There is division hither homeward..."?

("and there is a word not known..." - AL 3:2)

N Joy


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"and there is a word not known..." - AL 3:2)

There is always a Lost Word. it's built in to the mysteries of all the cultures. If it's not a lost password to LAShTAL, then it's the final (lost) Word leading to nirvana, which will happen if you (or I) ever remember it. I'm sure I have the Word that is not knwn, but I'm afraid to utter it and bring about The End of the World.


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hadgigegenraum
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

"and there is a word not known..." - AL 3:2)

There is always a Lost Word. it's built in to the mysteries of all the cultures. If it's not a lost password to LAShTAL, then it's the final (lost) Word leading to nirvana, which will happen if you (or I) ever remember it. I'm sure I have the Word that is not knwn, but I'm afraid to utter it and bring about The End of the World.

Ah Yes

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Ah Yes

Your understanding surpasses the cosmos. 


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Jamie J Barter
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Posted by: @shiva

I'm sure I have the Word that is not kn[o]wn, but I'm afraid to utter it and bring about The End of the World.

Can you possibly (slightly disingenuously, perhaps?) be referring here to the fact that, according to Crowley's Confessions Samuel Mathers reckoned Allan Bennett would achieve this by his proceeding to chant "Shiva" repetitively - which Mathers regarded to be an act of blasphemy only to be remedied by shooting at Bennett with his gun and which Crowley fortunately managed to intercede to prevent?

N Joy


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the_real_simon_iff
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April 1st is the perfect day to think of one of Crowley's most famous discrepancies: "It must have been on the first of April that W. commanded P. (now somewhat cowed) to enter the “temple” exactly at 12 o'clock noon on three successive days, and to write down what he should hear, rising exactly at 1 o'clock." as he wrote in The Equinox Of The Gods, which rises the question why the heck he waited until April 8th to 10th to do so, or if April 8th to 10th is the incorrect date of the writing.

And, just in time, there is this interesting rather long essay on exactly that matter by C.ScottMacLeod, which also touches lots of other interesting stuff like Crowley's meeting with Annie Besant on the "Osiris" or "Isis" on his way home from Cairo.

Lots of good information in there and lots of food for thought (for the so-inclined).

Colin gave permission to share it here:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kw4c996w2s0l2qi/Homeward%20Bound.pdf?dl=0

 

Love=Law

Lutz


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ignant666
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@the_real_simon_iff has beaten me to it, as Colin, aka my Australian Mystery Correspondent, also sent that to me, and i was going to post it. Very densely argued, very well-written, and interesting throughout.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can you possibly... be referring here to the fact that ... Crowley fortunately managed to intercede to prevent?

No. But I always thought it was a third party (not Crowley) who intervened. I think this is one of the more funny fun-type myths in The Legends of the G.'.D.'..

However, Shiva, which happens to be self-attached, is not the True and Approved Lost Word.


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hadgigegenraum
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@the_real_simon_iff

Indeed! 

April First has always been a Feast Day of sorts!

So thanks for posting the essay...the subject of the transit with Ms. Beasant has always been a curious one...

 


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belmurru
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@the_real_simon_iff

 

Thanks for the heads up on Scott MacLeod's paper, Lutz! I investigated the chronology and the itinerary of Besant and the two ships myself here on Lashtal a few years ago, I'll have to find it to see what my conclusion was. I believe it was that it was the Isis, and that Crowley must have met Besant on some other voyage. 

Not sure what to think of the calendar solution. I only read the relevant chronological parts, and scanned the long polemics in the middle. 

But worth a second and third and multiple studies. Fine work.


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belmurru
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@the_real_simon_iff

Here are some, earliest is 2007, then solid research in 2015-2016, I'm disappointed Scott MacLeod didn't know about it.

First time was in 2007, “Reception of Liber AL Inconsistencies”

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/reception-of-liber-al-inconsistencies/#post-9698

(and some following posts, with little clarity)

 

Got solid information in 2015 -

Thread “Evidence Presented in Liber L vel Bogus by R T Cole,” 9 May 2015

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/evidence-presented-in-liber-l-vel-bogus-by-r-t-cole/#post-88446

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/evidence-presented-in-liber-l-vel-bogus-by-r-t-cole/#post-88448

 

Summarized in “A Response to Liber L vel Bogus the 1st Anniversary,” 3 August 2016

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/submissions/a-response-to-liber-l-vel-bogus-the-1st-anniversary/#post-91604

 

@Leo - regarding the Osiris. This is indeed the only actual discrepancy in Crowley's account of the timeline. Fortunately we have control dates that allow us to conclude that Crowley's memory was wrong, and he must have taken the Osiris' sister-ship, Isis.

We know that Crowley was in Paris on Tuesday, April 26.
We have no reason to doubt that Besant left India on April 8; two independent witnesses have reported this date.
We have no reason to doubt that Crowley met Besant on board a ship departing Port Said in April, 1904. He wrote her a letter reminding her of it, and there is no way he could have studied some itinerary of Besant's in order to discover the fact that she was in fact on route to from India to Italy in precisely April, 1904. The only explanation is that he did in fact correctly remember meeting her on board a ship in April, 1904.

We know that Osiris departed Port Said on April 11, and April 25 (both Mondays). April 11 is too early for Besant to have been on board, and April 25 is too late for Crowley to have been on board, since he was in Paris the next day.

Since the sister ships operated on a strict weekly schedule, we can presume that Isis left Port Said on Monday, April 18. This satisfies both Crowley's and Besant's known itineraries.

Therefore the only explanation is that Crowley misremembered the ship's name, which can be explained by their being identical, and possibly by Crowley having taken Osiris before, or conflating it with the memory of May, 1905, presuming he took the Osiris then on his way to Cairo.

Besant's chronology is well enough known that there is no other time than April, 1904, that she and Crowley could have taken either the Osiris or the Isis at the same time.

It had to have been the Isis, not the Osiris, that Crowley took in April, 1904.

Further posts in the “Evidence Presented” thread -

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/evidence-presented-in-liber-l-vel-bogus-by-r-t-cole/paged/2/#post-88470

"threefold31" wrote:

Your citing of the weekly run of the Isis and Osiris is an important clue. It seems that both ships going on a weekly run might be excessive; since it looks like a two week turnaround for a single ship based on the other dates given. A once-weekly run by each ship makes the most sense, because there isn't enough time for one ship to do it every week. But that leads you to conclude that he was really on the Isis.

Indeed - that's the only solution that allows Besant's and Crowley's chronologies to work together. There is an error somewhere - Crowley's recollection of the name of the ship, or Fernee's dates for Besant in Italy - "around 19-22 April". It's the "around" that gives me pause; Leland's chronology has her in Rome, Florence, Genoa, but gives no dates. That is a straight trip north and west, and could have happened on those dates. But if the dates are correct, she could not have been on the Osiris.

Osiris itinerary, April-May 1904

1 April
2
3
4 Dep. Brindisi
5
6 Arr. Cairo (Port Said)
7
Besant leaves India
9
10
11 Dep. Cairo
12
13 Arr. Brindisi
14
15
16
17 Dep. Brindisi (
Besant arrives at Port Said?)
18 (
Dep. Isis from Port Said?)
19
20 Arr. Cairo (
Arr. Isis at Brindisi?)
21
22
23
24
25 Dep. Cairo
26 (
Crowley in Paris already)
27 Arr. Brindisi
28
29
30
1 May
2 Dep. Brindisi
3
4
5

I wrote Leland yesterday morning on the off chance he could give more information on Besant's itinerary, but have received no confirmation back yet that he even received it.

On Crowley's recollection of Osiris and the story "The Needs of the Navy" (in Snowdrops from a Curate's Garden, pp. 99-111), I wondered if the name of the Captain might be a clue as to which ship it was. He names him as "Captain Spelton", but I can find no such Captain, yet. Obviously it is probably a pseudonym.

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/evidence-presented-in-liber-l-vel-bogus-by-r-t-cole/paged/2/#post-88472

"threefold31" wrote:

I am also presuming Ianrons' material to be accurate regarding the departure dates for the Osiris, (presumably gotten from the P&O archivist). He does not specify the actual departure date of the Isis, but we can make an estimate within a day or two based on a weekly run of the ships.

Right. For those who would like to check, it was back in 2005, and the P&O historian and archivist Ian Rons spoke to was Stephen Rabson -

"I telephoned Stephen Rabson, P&O's historian and archivist at the National Maritime Museum today, and he provided me with several important details.
…Regarding the S.S. Osiris, the shipping dates for April 1904 were as follows:

  Brindisi dep.  4th -- arr.  6th Cairo dep. 11th -- arr. 13th Brindisi
  Brindisi dep. 17th -- arr. 20th Cairo dep. 25th -- arr. 27th Brindisi."

http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1668#p166 8" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1668#p1668

If Besant really departed from India, presumably Bombay, on April 8, 1904, then she could not have been on the Osiris to make a circa April 20 appearance in Rome.
Crowley could not have left as late as April 25, because he is indisputably in Paris on April 26.

If Paul's suggestion of Crowley's departure of April 11 is plausible, then he could not have seen Besant on board the Osiris - again presuming, in this scenario, that her chronology is correct. Besant's departure from India on April 8 is corroborated by two independent sources, Ben Fernee and Kurt Leland.

So, for both of them to have been together on a ship from Port Said in April of 1904, it has to be the Isis

Finally, Crowley clearly believed it was the Osiris, but he did not "insist" on it, as in reaffirming his position in the face of a challenge. He merely recollects it; it could well be, and must be if he really met Besant on board, the Isis.

Explanations for his mistaken recollection could be that he was not paying attention and merely assumed. Perhaps the first trip he made from Port Said to Brindisi was on the Osiris and it stuck as the normal or only ship that did the run. The ships were identical (certainly to the layman). The trip was only about 25 hours, and perhaps, given his general level of excitement, inclucing meeting the Theosophical luminary Besant, he paid no attention the "Isis" monogram that was presumably everywhere, on the writing paper and napkins, and on the tickets, for instance (atlhough he may not have taken personal care of that last detail and never seen it).

A mistaken recollection on his part is really the simplest explanation.

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/biography/evidence-presented-in-liber-l-vel-bogus-by-r-t-cole/paged/2/#post-88493

Kurt Leland, responsible for the Annie Besant chronology cited in post 36 of this thread,
http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=90488#p9048 8" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=90488#p90488
has responded to me, confirming Besant’s departure date from India of April 8, 1904, from a report of her movements in the Theosophical Review for that year, thus corroborating what Ian Rons reported from Ben Fernee’s visit to the London Theosophical Library in 2005 –
http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1700#p170 0" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1700#p1700

Thus she could not have been on the Osiris on April 12, 1904, which is the only time Crowley have taken it.

Further, although he has a lot of material on her movements and whereabouts, the sources he has checked don’t name any of the ships or the dates of landing at Port Said, nor of the precise dates of her activities in Rome, Florence and Genoa. However, Ben Fernee’s range of “19-22 April” is consistent with her leaving India on April 8 and taking the Isis on April 17 or18.

If this topic is judged too tangential to the subject of this thread, I’ll be happy to start on a new one on the implications of this chronology for the last part of Crowley’s stay in Cairo in 1904. I find it interesting, and really the only tangible “discrepancy” in Crowley’s account of events. Either he did not meet Annie Besant at all (which I find implausible), or he was not actually on board the Osiris, but instead the Isis, when he met her (which I find plausible).


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the_real_simon_iff
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@belmurru Those were the days! Man, I miss some of these guys.

Mr. Cole isn't by far the first one discussing any inconsistencies. But I am sure Colin was aware of this, and took it just as an intro to his "new calendar theory", which is by itself highly interesting!

Love=Law

Lutz


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belmurru
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@the_real_simon_iff

Apologies for calling Colin "Scott." 

The best thing I learned was about James Thomson's use of LXX/333 = 0.210, on page 24. It was so "Crowleyan" that I had to look up the original publications of "The City of Dreadful Night" to believe it. 

Yet there it is. It absolutely explains where Crowley got the numbers, which I previously took to have been his own Qabalistic inspirations in 1909. Although AC quotes Thomson in the Rite of Saturn, I didn't recall his mention of him in The Gospel According to George Bernard Shaw. It is clear how much of an impression this poem made on him in his youth.

It made the same impression on me when I was 16, and stays with me. I memorized the 100-odd lines LaVey used in The Satanic Rituals. 

See page 10 here, footnote, for the 1880 publication of the City of Dreadful Night.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=wZo-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA2&dq=%22because+a+cold+rage+seizes+one%22&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwji_cTo_N3vAhXhXRUIHUI9Bc4Q6AEwA3oECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=%22because%20a%20cold%20rage%20seizes%20one%22&f=false


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the_real_simon_iff
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@belmurru Totally off-topic but do you still have your old email address? Sorry for the digress, it should be over soon...

 


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belmurru
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@the_real_simon_iff

Yep, belmurru (at) hotmail.com, or belmurru (at) gmail.com


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belmurru
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@the_real_simon_iff

I think it comes down to either:

Crowley met Besant on the 17-18 April, and misremembered the name of the ship, or he met her on the Osiris at another time. I think the only time possible turned out to be in May 1905, but I don't remember if I ever found out if Besant could have been on the ship at that time, or if the Osiris was the ship Crowley took. 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @belmurru

Crowley met Besant on the 17-18 April, and misremembered the name of the ship, or he met her on the Osiris at another time.

I can't imagine that he mixed up the occasion of coming home from Cairo, but I can imagine that he got the Isis-Osiris thing wrong.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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christibrany
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Yes I would say the likeliest scenario is that the dates Crowley mention are correct but he simply forgot the name of the ship.  It is easy to mix up Isis and Osiris.

 

One thing that stood out for me in the essay however was this 

'Also rather
problematic is that the dates given for the Three Days of the Writing of Liber El, the eighth, the
ninth and the tenth of April, were the Good Friday, the Holy Saturday and Easter as observed by the
Coptic Church 23. They were, according to that account, on those days of Easter as celebrated in
Cairo. If Crowley was there at the time, he could not have been unaware of it; yet he never wrote of
it. Oddly, this lacunæ in the record is still almost unknown by believers in the revelation 24.'

 

 


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christibrany
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This is also very interesting.  Even if you use the 1st 2nd and 3rd of April it still falls on Easter, The western version.

 

'However, while “1st” might, plausibly, have been a misreading, by a typist or typesetter, of “7th”,
that it become “first” by a simple misreading is difficult to credit. Furthermore, by the time of the
December, 1937 edition, there were seventeen items, including the earlier ten, in its errata slip 29;
so there had been quite some time for Crowley and his readers to spot some additional, minor errors
―yet it had still not been listed. Indeed, the word having been spelt out in full, is, in the context,
suggestive of deliberate emphasis. And if, indeed, it was correct, the possibility arises, the two
passages being otherwise identical, that what was indicated was that the writing began not on that
day but on the following day; the commandment being said to be on the seventh of April and the
First Day of the Writing being said to be on the eighth. That would mean that Saturday the second,
Sunday the third and Monday the fourth of April were the Three Days of the Writing. Friday the
first of April was, in 1904, Good Friday by the calendar of the western churches and so the Three
Days of the Writing would still have fallen on three Easter days: Holy Saturday, Easter and Easter
Monday'

 

Happy Good Friday 😉 


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hadgigegenraum
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Yes Good Friday

& on April 2nd...which may or may not have been one of the days of the reception of Liber Legis...it was though Frater Achad's Birthday and the date with which he 'Announced' in 1948 the "Ma-ion"!

 

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @christibrany

 

One thing that stood out for me in the essay however was this 

'Also rather
problematic is that the dates given for the Three Days of the Writing of Liber El, the eighth, the
ninth and the tenth of April, were the Good Friday, the Holy Saturday and Easter as observed by the
Coptic Church 23. They were, according to that account, on those days of Easter as celebrated in
Cairo. If Crowley was there at the time, he could not have been unaware of it; yet he never wrote of
it. Oddly, this lacunæ in the record is still almost unknown by believers in the revelation 24.'

 

 

I wasn't arrested by this observation. Christians in Cairo would not have been allowed to ring bells and dominate the city like in Europe for Easter. Crowley never expressed anthropological interest in the ancient orthodox churches. His only use for Coptic was as a bridge to ancient Egyptian, and Coptic letters as Qabalah.

Alexandria had - and has - the most Copts. The main church in Cairo is St. Sergius, in Old Cairo. If I remember correctly, Crowley stayed near the Boulak district, which is about 3 miles north of there. There is no reason he would have known about Coptic Easter unless he was specifically looking for it. 

Here is Baedeker's 1904 on what to do if one wanted to see Mass at St Sergius -

https://archive.org/details/egypthandbookfo00firgoog/page/n290/mode/2up

I'm just not persuaded that Crowley cared in the slightest about what the Copts in Cairo were doing. 


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the_real_simon_iff
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It might even be that the two discrepancies mentioned in the text aren't any discrepancies at all: in the end, when Rose ordered him on the first of April to the dictation, it doesn't say when the dictation begins. It could still be beginning on the 8th. Also, when Crowley says it was *about* a fortnight after the writing it could still be the 18th when he left on the "Isis" (such being able to a. meet Beasant and b. be in Paris for his diner with Arnold Bennett on the 26th) this would mean 10 days after the first writing, which is in hindsight not too far away from a fortnight. Just a guess.

Love=Law

Lutz


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @belmurru

Crowley met Besant on the 17-18 April, and misremembered the name of the ship, or he met her on the Osiris at another time.

I can't imagine that he mixed up the occasion of coming home from Cairo, but I can imagine that he got the Isis-Osiris thing wrong.

 

I once dug deep into Besant's itinerary, and it is only this once in 1904 that they could have crossed paths. So he MUST have misremembered the name. If he only wrote about meeting Annie Besant, we could pass it off as boasting; but he wrote to her directly, reminding her of their meeting. I have come to think that, since we are unaware of anything else she thought about him, it might have been his mistaking of the ship's name that made her write him off as a crank. 

There are only three known passages he took on that route Port Said-Brindisi:

Coming home from K2 in November 1902 - if I remember correctly Besant was nowhere near there.

Coming home from Cairo in 1904 - this has to be it.

Going to the Kanchenjunga expedition in May 1905 - Besant nowhere near.

In 1903 *on the way* to Alexandria and then Cairo (the Great Pyramid evocation) and then Ceylon, for the honeymoon, they took a ship from Naples. Not a P&O ship. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

It might even be that the two discrepancies mentioned in the text aren't any discrepancies at all: in the end, when Rose ordered him on the first of April to the dictation, it doesn't say when the dictation begins. It could still be beginning on the 8th. Also, when Crowley says it was *about* a fortnight after the writing it could still be the 18th when he left on the "Isis" (such being able to a. meet Beasant and b. be in Paris for his diner with Arnold Bennett on the 26th) this would mean 10 days after the first writing, which is in hindsight not too far away from a fortnight. Just a guess.

Love=Law

Lutz

Yes, and he says it "must" have been on the first of April, which shows that he was doing his best to reconcile his memory of salient events with the documentation available to him. It was obviously a heady time, and whether it was, literally, a fortnight, or just felt like a fortnight, from Sunday afternoon on the 10 of April to Monday the 18th of April, we can all relate. 

There is just absolutely no other time AC could have traveled by ship with Besant. He just screwed up the names.


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wellreadwellbred
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belmurru: "I have come to think that, since we are unaware of anything else she [ = Annie Besant] thought about him, it might have been his mistaking of the ship's name that made her write him off as a crank."

 

Where is it documented that AB wrote AC off as a crank?  


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belmurru
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A new fact: Annie Besant gave a lecture on Theosophy in Rome at 6pm on Friday, 22 April, 1904. 

This is from The Diaries of Andrew Dickson White (Cornell University Library, 1959), p. 395:

 Friday, April 22, Rome

First sitting with Ezekiel, sculptor. Hand modelled (cast taken in plaster). 6 P.M. lecture on Theosophy by Mrs. A. Besant - eloquent but not convincing.

So, when did she arrive in Italy from Port Said, and on what ship? It appears that Crowley's memory may indeed be correct, and they traveled on the Osiris. Just our luck, precisely for the dates of the journey in question, the S.S. Osiris took a different route, not to Brindisi, but to Messina and Palermo! This may have been due to disruptions caused by the Russo-Japanese war, which had broken out on 8 February 1904, and which made Russian ships on the Mediterranean aggressive against ships which transported mail to and from Japan. 

A person I have not encountered before has been writing about Crowley's side of this, and many other things too.

Perdurabo ST, For the Thelemites: Rose and Aleister Crowley's stay in Egypt in 1904: A study in the Cairo Working and what it led to. (2017)

https://www.forthethelemites.website/upl/website/april-20-1904-ev/April201904evFortheThelemitesv19.pdf

Perdurabo ST's website, with other excerpts from his gigantic work, is here -

https://www.forthethelemites.website/forthcoming-title

In the "April 20 1904" PDF, Perdurabo ST has given the itinerary of the Osiris from Shipping Gazette and Lloyd's Lists. 

 

S.S. Osiris itinerary March-April 1904, from Lloyd's Lists, p. 188 note 830:

 

Monday 28 March, Osiris departs Port Said for Brindisi

Wednesday 30 March, Osiris arrives Brindisi from Port Said

Thursday 31 March, Osiris arrives Marseille from Brindisi

Sunday 3 April, Osiris departs Brindisi for Port Said

Monday 4 April, Osiris departs Marseille for Port Said

Wednesday 6 April, Osiris arrives Port Said

Monday 11 April, Osiris departs Port Said

Wednesday 13 April, Osiris arrives Brindisi

Sunday 17 April, Osiris departs Brindisi

Wednesday 20 April, Osiris arrives Port Said; departs for Messina and Palermo same day.

Friday 22 April, Osiris arrives Messina (Besant in Rome 6pm that evening; White, 395)

Saturday 23 April, Osiris arrives Palermo

Monday 25 April, Osiris arrives Port Said, departs for Brindisi same day.

Wednesday 27 April, Osiris arrives Brindisi

 

Perdurabo ST didn't know about Besant's presence in Rome that evening, but despite that complication the scenario would look like:

The Crowleys and Besant took the Osiris from Port Said to Messina on Wednesday, 20 April. At Messina on 22 April, Besant took a ship to the mainland, and then a train to Rome, to arrive by the evening. The Crowleys continued on to Palermo, or took a different ship, probably to Marseille, and caught a train northward from there, to be in Paris in time for lunch with Arnold Bennett on 26 April (plenty of time, unlike for Besant).

Besant's itinerary and presence in Rome seems almost impossible if they were indeed on the Osiris at Messina. Perdurabo ST notes Baedeker's travel times: from port of Messina to mainland Reggio is about an hour. Then the train to Naples is about 13 hours. From Naples to Rome I can only guess, but it must be at least another 5 hours. That is a very tight schedule! Unless Osiris arrived in Messina in the very wee hours of the morning, and Besant caught a ferry almost immediately. These things can presumably be researched. 

 


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belmurru
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Something strange in Perdurabo ST's Lloyd's List itinerary for the Osiris. It does not complicate Crowley's scenario, but the involvement of Marseille is off.

 

Wednesday 30 March, Osiris arrives Brindisi from Port Said

Thursday 31 March, Osiris arrives Marseille from Brindisi

Sunday 3 April, Osiris departs Brindisi for Port Said

Monday 4 April, Osiris departs Marseille for Port Said

 

The distance from Port Said to Brindisi is around 941 nautical miles (1743km), which Osiris and Isis famously did in around 46 hours. The distance from Brindisi to Marseille is 844 nautical miles (1563km), which must have taken a few hours less, say average of 40 hours. 

So it may be that Osiris left Brindisi shortly after arriving, and traveled full steam to Marseille, to arrive very late on 31 March. But it is absolutely impossible for Osiris to depart for Port Said on 3 April, and then to depart from Marseille for Port Said the very next day. 

Something doesn't add up.

I have checked P&O again, and only one ship was ever called "Osiris" (although it was renamed "Osiris II" in 1911). 

https://www.poheritage.com/Upload/Mimsy/Media/factsheet/94110OSIRIS-1898pdf.pdf

Main P&O page -

https://www.poheritage.com/our-archive

 

Distance between Brindisi-Marseille 844 nautical miles (1563km), Brindisi-Port Said 941nm (1743km)

See National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, “Distances Between Ports,” p. 17 or 61

https://maddenmaritime.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/pub151-distances-btw-ports.pdf

 


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threefold31
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@belmurru

 

Dwtw

Good to see some more evidence emerging!

Based on what we knew a few years ago, it seemed a cinch that the ship where AC met AB was the Isis.

But if it can be relied on that she was in Rome on April 22, it narrows the possibilities considerably.

I think her itinerary was too tight for the Osiris. And is it just our luck that the Osiris interrupted its normal bi-weekly schedule exactly at the time when we thought that it would be the Isis leaving Port Said?

It would be very helpful to know where the Isis was at that point. Did the two ships 'pass in the night' so to speak, and then exchange their routes because of the war, or something else? Or did they both leave Port Said a couple days apart, with the Isis going to Brindisi as usual and the Osiris making a change and going to Messina instead.

And of course there is a mistake on either the April 3 or the April 4 entry for the Osiris and Marseille. Why are two different ports listed for departure to the same destination? Probably the April 3 entry is a mistake. And if you're right that the trip from Brindisi to Marseille took 40 hours, then the Osiris going from one to the other in one calendar day March 30-March 31 - right after arriving from Port Said -  seems unlikely but not impossible. Do ships normally arrive in the wee hours, immediately leave again, and then arrive late at night?

 

Litlluw

RLG


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belmurru
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Where is it documented that AB wrote AC off as a crank?  

Nowhere. This is why I said "since we are unaware of anything else she thought about him." I don't know that there is any record of Annie Besant's thoughts on Crowley.

Martin Starr, who published Crowley's circa 1 March 1925 letter to Besant, in which he invited her to appoint him head of the Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society, says only that "the response was silence." (The Unknown God: W.T. Smith and the Thelemites, Teitan Press, 2003, p. 153 - https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZM2DpIct1jsC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr#v=onepage&q=besant&f=false )

We can only speculate why she did not respond. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

@belmurru

 

It would be very helpful to know where the Isis was at that point. Did the two ships 'pass in the night' so to speak, and then exchange their routes because of the war, or something else? Or did they both leave Port Said a couple days apart, with the Isis going to Brindisi as usual and the Osiris making a change and going to Messina instead.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't add Isis because she kept up a perfectly regular weekly service between Port Said and Brindisi for these dates. 

Isis itinerary from the same source, page 188 note 830:

 

Monday 28 March, Isis departs Brindisi

Thursday 31 March, Isis arrives Port Said.

Monday 4 April, Isis departs Port Said.

Wednesday 6 April, Isis arrives Brindisi.

Monday 11 April, Isis departs Brindisi.

Wednesday 13 April, Isis arrives Port Said.

Monday 18 April, Isis departs Port Said.

Thursday 21 April, Isis arrives Brindisi.

Monday 25 April, Isis departs Brindisi.

Wednesday 27 April, Isis arrives Port Said.

 

Somewhere I read that they did indeed pass each other, often within view, on the route they shared, going in opposite directions. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

@belmurru

 

And of course there is a mistake on either the April 3 or the April 4 entry for the Osiris and Marseille. Why are two different ports listed for departure to the same destination? Probably the April 3 entry is a mistake. And if you're right that the trip from Brindisi to Marseille took 40 hours, then the Osiris going from one to the other in one calendar day March 30-March 31 - right after arriving from Port Said -  seems unlikely but not impossible. Do ships normally arrive in the wee hours, immediately leave again, and then arrive late at night?

 

Litlluw

RLG

I think it has to be a mistake of some kind, either in the original Lloyd's document, or Perdurabo ST's reading.

Even if 3 April's departure from Brindisi to Port Said is a misreading for Brindisi to Marseille (but no arrival in Marseille is noted), the distance between Marseille and Port Said is 1518 nautical miles, 2811.336 km, which no ship could do in less than 48 hours. But the Lloyd's List, per Perdurabo ST, says:

Monday 4 April, Osiris departs Marseille for Port Said

Wednesday 6 April, Osiris arrives Port Said

This is impossible, if the 577nm shorter journey of Brindisi-Port Said of 941nm (1743km) itself took 46 hours. 


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threefold31
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Posted by: @belmurru

 

Monday 11 April, Isis departs Brindisi.

Wednesday 13 April, Isis arrives Port Said.

Monday 18 April, Isis departs Port Said.

Thursday 21 April, Isis arrives Brindisi.

 

Dwtw,

 

Thanks, that's what I thought. Based on the Isis not changing her route, I think we still can't quite rule out that AC and AB took the Isis on April 18. That would have made her appearance in Rome on April 22 very plausible. However, if Besant had a hard engagement time to speak, she may have lost some travel time on the way to Egypt and went as rapidly as possible to Rome. That would make Crowley's recollection about the Osiris correct. It's tantalizing that the Besant lecture is just barely possible for a 4-20 departure; had it been a day earlier it would have been definitive that her ship sailed on 4-18.

But to keep to the main purpose of figuring out these departure dates; if AC is also correct that he left Cairo "about a fortnight" after the reception of AL, then either 4-18 or 4-20 might imply an earlier reception date of April 1-2-3. As an aside, April 18, 1904 was the date of Crowley's exact Saturn Return.

 

Litlluw

RLG

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31
Posted by: @belmurru

 

Monday 11 April, Isis departs Brindisi.

Wednesday 13 April, Isis arrives Port Said.

Monday 18 April, Isis departs Port Said.

Thursday 21 April, Isis arrives Brindisi.

 

Dwtw,

 

Thanks, that's what I thought. Based on the Isis not changing her route, I think we still can't quite rule out that AC and AB took the Isis on April 18. That would have made her appearance in Rome on April 22 very plausible. However, if Besant had a hard engagement time to speak, she may have lost some travel time on the way to Egypt and went as rapidly as possible to Rome. That would make Crowley's recollection about the Osiris correct. It's tantalizing that the Besant lecture is just barely possible for a 4-20 departure; had it been a day earlier it would have been definitive that her ship sailed on 4-18.

But to keep to the main purpose of figuring out these departure dates; if AC is also correct that he left Cairo "about a fortnight" after the reception of AL, then either 4-18 or 4-20 might imply an earlier reception date of April 1-2-3. As an aside, April 18, 1904 was the date of Crowley's exact Saturn Return.

 

Litlluw

RLG

 

Tantalizing indeed.

If Besant took a ship from Messina to Civitavecchia, about 30km from Rome, it would have been faster than ferry, to 13 hour train to Naples, to whatever to Rome. The sea distance is 308nm, so a ship doing 15 to 20 knots could do it in about 15 hours. There could have been a connection like that, ship leaving early in the morning to get people to Rome by evening. And maybe another one steaming all night to get them there in the morning. Again, the information is probably out there. Not Besant's choice, just the bare facts of travel at the time. 

For the "about a fortnight," it depends on how many days you allow for the "about." If three is okay, then counting the last Sunday, since the rest of the day was spent in socializing, you get 11 days until 20 April, which covers it. With Isis and 18 April departure, it is harder to accept "about a fortnight," although I rationalize it as the two Sundays feeling like two weeks, plus the new Monday, and the socializing blending things together so that some place or meeting feels like déjà vu, which could give the impression of having happened in two different weeks when your memory is fuzzy. 

But Isis makes Besant's solid chronology easier.

My own first Saturn return happened in March 1996, five months from my thirtieth birthday, so a little later than normal. A double retrograde in the previous year delayed it. But Saturn was retrograde when I was born, too.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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ISIS or OSIRIS........in the end AC and AB most likely did not get it ON....

...unless there is a reason for missing notebooks or pages...


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Shiva
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Posted by: @belmurru

But Isis makes Besant's solid chronology easier.

Referring to my own experiences, I recall several trips out to The Magickal Island (San Juan Island) by ferries that hauled my cars, trucks, and trailers (Washington State Ferry Service). I cannot even begin to know which Fairy Boat was associated with which trip and/or load. They all look the same, even if one might be bigger than another.

image

I cannot remember even the name of a single one of them. I therefor subscribe to the theorem that the names of the boats could easily be switched or confused, and that the sailing tables would shine more light on the mystery than, say, Crowley's memory.


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belmurru
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @belmurru

But Isis makes Besant's solid chronology easier.

Referring to my own experiences, I recall several trips out to The Magickal Island (San Juan Island) by ferries that hauled my cars, trucks, and trailers (Washington State Ferry Service). I cannot even begin to know which Fairy Boat was associated with which trip and/or load. They all look the same, even if one might be bigger than another.

image

I cannot remember even the name of a single one of them. I therefor subscribe to the theorem that the names of the boats could easily be switched or confused, and that the sailing tables would shine more light on the mystery than, say, Crowley's memory.

I'm partial to your educated intuition here. It's why I always favored the name mix-up hypothesis. But if AC met her on this trip, it had to be the Osiris. She arrived in Port Said on 19 April, a day after Isis had already departed that port. So the "about a fortnight" works better, and Crowley's memory was right. The only difficulty that remains is how Besant made it to Rome so quickly. But that isn't our problem. 

Sailing tables might help us with exact timing. Passenger lists for the Osiris (presumably the Isis too?) seem to be lost forever, though, if our new friend Perdurabo ST's research is reliable. He looked for them. From page 186:

On what date did the Crowleys leave Egypt in April 1904 E.V.? As far as my research shows there are no extant passenger lists from the Osiris. P&O compiled lists of passengers travelling abroad its ships, but only few have survived.


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threefold31
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Posted by: @belmurru
Posted by: @threefold31

And of course there is a mistake on either the April 3 or the April 4 entry for the Osiris and Marseille.

I think it has to be a mistake of some kind, either in the original Lloyd's document, or Perdurabo ST's reading.

Even if 3 April's departure from Brindisi to Port Said is a misreading for Brindisi to Marseille (but no arrival in Marseille is noted), the distance between Marseille and Port Said is 1518 nautical miles, 2811.336 km, which no ship could do in less than 48 hours. But the Lloyd's List, per Perdurabo ST, says:

Monday 4 April, Osiris departs Marseille for Port Said

Wednesday 6 April, Osiris arrives Port Said

This is impossible, if the 577nm shorter journey of Brindisi-Port Said of 941nm (1743km) itself took 46 hours. 

Dwtw

 

yes, a mistake for sure, as noted in your earlier quoting of the Osiris timetable in brief:

"…Regarding the S.S. Osiris, the shipping dates for April 1904 were as follows:   

Brindisi dep.  4th -- arr.  6th Cairo dep. 11th -- arr. 13th Brindisi  

Brindisi dep. 17th -- arr. 20th Cairo dep. 25th -- arr. 27th Brindisi."

 

Then the quote from Lloyd's list claims:

Monday 28 March, Osiris departs Port Said for Brindisi

Wednesday 30 March, Osiris arrives Brindisi from Port Said

Thursday 31 March, Osiris arrives Marseille from Brindisi

Sunday 3 April, Osiris departs Brindisi for Port Said

Monday 4 April, Osiris departs Marseille for Port Said

Wednesday 6 April, Osiris arrives Port Said

Monday 11 April, Osiris departs Port Said

Wednesday 13 April, Osiris arrives Brindisi

Sunday 17 April, Osiris departs Brindisi

Wednesday 20 April, Osiris arrives Port Said; departs for Messina and Palermo same day.

Friday 22 April, Osiris arrives Messina (Besant in Rome 6pm that evening; White, 395)

Saturday 23 April, Osiris arrives Palermo

Monday 25 April, Osiris arrives Port Said, departs for Brindisi same day.

Wednesday 27 April, Osiris arrives Brindisi 

 

These tables cannot BOTH be right.

the simplest explanation is that April 3 was a trip from Marseille back to Brindisi, and that April 4 was a departure from Brindisi to Port Said, as the original table has it.

In any event, the tables agree that the Osiris is back in Cairo by April 6, and it leaves there on the 11th and the 20th. Now that I look at it closer, the trip on the 20th doesn't really give Besant enough time to get from Messina to Rome the same day, so that would confirm she was on the Isis and left Port Said on April 18.

But you say she arrived in Port Said on April 19, what is that based on?

 

Litlluw

RLG

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

 

But you say she arrived in Port Said on April 19, what is that based on?

 

Litlluw

RLG

 

Perdurabo ST page 187 and note 824, with quotes from the Times/Lloyd's -

 

Annie Besant can according to the Lloyd's Lists only have been on the P&O steamer S.S. Oceana, Sydney for London, that departed from Colombo, Ceylon, on April 8 and arrived at Port Said eleven days later, April 19, the day before the Osiris from Brindisi arrived at Port Said.

The note is too long to quote. https://www.forthethelemites.website/upl/website/april-20-1904-ev/April201904evFortheThelemitesv19.pdf

I thought she had left from Bombay, but I haven't checked my notes. 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @threefold31

But you say she arrived in Port Said on April 19, what is that based on?

It's the info the Homeward Bound PDF by Colin MacLeod gives:

"The Oceana steamed from Aden the same day, at noon, to relay the mail as speedily as possible, arrived at Suez in the morning of Monday the eighteenth of April and at Port Said later that day. She left Port Said for Marseilles on Tuesday the nineteenth."

Love=Law

Lutz


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belmurru
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @threefold31

But you say she arrived in Port Said on April 19, what is that based on?

It's the info the Homeward Bound PDF by Colin MacLeod gives:

"The Oceana steamed from Aden the same day, at noon, to relay the mail as speedily as possible, arrived at Suez in the morning of Monday the eighteenth of April and at Port Said later that day. She left Port Said for Marseilles on Tuesday the nineteenth."

Love=Law

Lutz

Ah, yes! That's where I saw all those additional details in the mad rush of yesterday. Including the proof of Besant's departure from Bombay.

But she did transfer to Oceana at Aden, which Perdurabo ST doesn't know. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

 

the simplest explanation is that April 3 was a trip from Marseille back to Brindisi, and that April 4 was a departure from Brindisi to Port Said, as the original table has it.

 

 

That IS the simplest explanation - a misreading or typo in Perdurabo ST's un-proofed pages. But even if it is, it is still remarkably fast to go from Marseille to Brindisi. 


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threefold31
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Dwtw

 

Great, thanks. I haven't dived in to those sources yet. But don't these conflict?

We have neither the Isis nor Osiris leaving on the 19th?

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

Litlluw

RLG


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belmurru
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Posted by: @threefold31

Dwtw

 

Great, thanks. I haven't dived in to those sources yet. But don't these conflict?

We have neither the Isis nor Osiris leaving on the 19th?

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

Litlluw

RLG

No, Besant arrived in Port Said on the 19th, and departed on the 20th, on the Osiris. She got off of the Oceana because that was going on to Marseille, while she had to go to Italy. The Oceana departed on the 19th, according to MacLeod's note 12.

From Perdurabo ST we learn of the singular confusion of Osiris' itinerary on this voyage. 

Here is Lutz' link to Colin MacLeod's Homeward Bound study, in case you missed it -

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kw4c996w2s0l2qi/Homeward%20Bound.pdf?dl=0


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threefold31
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@belmurru

Dwtw

MacLeod has Besant leaving on the Isis on April 18 on p.55 of that document. He repeats this departure time in note 14. His clippings show definitively that the Oceana arrived Port Said and Isis departed therefrom on the same day. So that much, at least, is clear. Doesn't that make Perdurabo ST incorrect? 

Sorry if I'm not grasping this all, but based on the evidence it appears that MacLeod is right about Isis and the 18th. Besant in Rome on April 22 is a pretty key piece of evidence.

 

Litlluw

RLG


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