Crowley and his usa...

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# Crowley and his usages of maths and formulas in Thelema

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(@sangewanchuck56)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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I hope the great “misunderstanding*” that occurred between the threads “discrepancies” and “non-duality” are all cleared up now.  (In case anyone is not, I have provided a gentle explanation and truce at the bottom of this *post.)

Crowley and his usages of maths and formulas in Thelema

I wish to introduce a forum topic around Crowley’s usage of maths and formulas, not in a kabbalistic sense, numerology–but in the sense that a mathematician would use them, in his writings, explaining to us readers his viewpoint.

Crowley gives us a few examples of using maths in a straightforward sense, a manner of communicating a complex concept relying on nothing more than simple logical notation, requiring zero “esoteric” calculations to understand.

What are these?

Here are some I have listed.

It is helpful if anyone can list or find any others and attach them to the thread.

0 = 2, 1, 1 + -1 = 0  / The explicate numbers

0, ZERO, is a central number in Thelema, with numerous esoteric references sure but also with explicit mathematical reference.

Used in a “formula”, we are aware of the often used 0 = 2.

Crowley also used a (I believe) much clearer mathematical expression of the 0=2 formula with his explanation of 1 + -1 = 0 to explain the formula of the magician as opposed to the formula of the “mystic”, who Crowley said, also arrives at 0 but through 1 - 1 = 0.

Personally, this is what I always was in awe of in Crowley’s writings; where out of nowhere and in between the various masks, some funny others rather concerning, he pops out something so simple and direct and mathematical to give a much broader perspective or view, one so simple it is literally impossible to argue with.

We all agree that 1 + -1 = 0, we already understand that, even if we think we are unaware of Crowley’s super mysterious secret words and kabbalah, 1 + -1 = 0 is always true.

0 = 2 does not have such far reach. In simple basic counting maths, the application of applying 0 = 2 collapses the entire system of counting, all values become exaggerated and continually drift from the “actual” count.

I propose only the obvious and non-controversial; Crowley used both mathematical notations, “1 + -1 = 0” and “0 = 2” to communicate the exact same thing, from two different perspectives.

One of them is the proof for the other in this manner, these are two formulas for balancing and uniting the opposites, “healing the separation” in the gnostic and psychological sense, transcendence.

In math, opposites in basic counting are both ends of the number line, and the only thing “separating” the positive integers and the negative integers on a number line is the number 0.

As the obvious shows us; ( -2,-1,0,1,2 )

Because Crowley himself is the one giving us these mathematical notations that, he claims, are formulas in magick, then looking at them as just that appears like the obvious path to follow.

Crowley also gives us a dynamic example of the simple counting number line as well, in two lines of Liber al Vel Legis, both the voice of Nuit.

The first example is right at the top of the book, literally at “hello” the first view Nuit communicates to the reader is one of “all numbers are infinite, there is no difference”, and then later in the chapter, as the conversation between Nuit and Crowley through Aiwass warms a bit, Nuit describes herself within these same terms as “infinite space and the infinite stars thereof”, while she tells us how to count the number line, all the way to infinity, so simple little children can count it too, by expressing 1,1,1… an act of counting all the stars to “infinity”, which we can trace back to both the number 0 and the number 2 as two expressions of “infinity” on a number line that the mathematician has, not the kabbalist.

To a mathematician, the axiom “all numbers are infinite” is easily proofed, because as the “actual” count of the number line truly is “1,1,1…” into infinity, with no possible summary, the “ordering or assigning” of any number above the number 1, the numbers “2” and up, are arbitrary to whatever operation we wish to do, a temporary ordering of “1”.

On the infinite number line, there are an infinite number of sets of “two” number ones, and an infinite number of sets of “3” orderings of 1.

The mathematical view of this is one of pure and continual expansion, continually expanding into infinity, with no possible counting boundary there until we place it there.

Formulas in mathematics do one thing if they are proofed. They recapitulate into countless expressions of using these principles in the basic “ordering” of our lives in the most basic sense, counting and organizing.

So the obvious path to take is continuing to follow the mathematicians view of the number line, because Crowley is telling us that within this view is understanding with elegance and simplicity the path of the Magician, the Path of the Mystic as well as the “view” of the magician, which is the same as the view of the mathematician’s is to the view of the number line, but applied to all reality, the broadest possible application of the formula expressed on a number line in the counting sense, the highest view or perspective the mind can expand to.

I am going to refer to this as the “explicit” number set, because they are explicit in Crowley’s writings, both Holy Book as well as the writings of the imp Crowley, a consistent theme and voice.

0,1,2 / The implicate numbers

The implicate numbers, 0, 1, and 2 are in this set because this particular view of the number line is not directly addressed by Crowley in his writings, yet indirectly, he tells us this is all we need to use to understand his “view” through appeal to his writings, like a proof. So everything in this proof is only derived from Crowley's writings, without me superimposing my own view of the elephant over it.

In Liber DCCCXXXVII , Crowley writes of this directly “ I WRITE this for those who have not read our Sacred book, The Book of the Law, or for those who, reading it, have somehow failed to understand its perfection.  For there are many matters in this Book, and the Glad Tidings are now here, now there, scattered throughout the Book as the Stars are scattered through the field of Night.

Crowley in his writings indeed does tell us how to come to understand, both in a Holy Book as well as supported by

“Divide, Add, Multiply, and Understand” is in the Holy Book of Thelema, while the “calculation” of what this is written.

In Liber CL: de lege libellum, Crowley writes “Also I would have you to meditate closely upon the name NU that is 56, which we are told to divide, add, multiply, and understand."By division cometh forth 0.12, as if it were written Nuith! Hadith! Ra-HoorKhuith! before the Dyad.

This is Crowley telling us how to “view” this, through hints, secret keys, drama, theater, exposition, poetry.

012, to the view of the mathematician, packs quite a wallop.

0 1 2 is a “base three” counting set.

Similar, but far from identical to its “dualistic” counting set “base two” or "digital", composed solely of the numbers 0 and 1, Base three is a form of counting (trigital) to infinity instead of our standard “base 10”, which governs both the tree of life as well as our entire view of counting in the western world.

Crowley applies ternary logic in his writings

When Crowley expresses “1 + - 1 = 0”, there is also a form of logic, a “ternary” logic, where as the numbers 1,-1,0 are the sole integers for what is called “balanced ternary logic” in mathematics/logic.

The numbers 0, 1, 2 are another integer set used in a very sophisticated form of logic called “unbalanced ternary logic” which is called the ideal “paraconsistent” logic.

“A paraconsistent logic is an attempt at a logical system to deal with contradictions in a discriminating way.”

This is a form of logic, very sophisticated, that is also required in Quantum Mechanics, with its implicate and explicate contradictory sets of data that need to be resolved mathematically.

This is also a form of logic that is directly applicable to online discussion and psychology, a programmatic “dialectic”.

Crowley’s formula of 1 + - 1 = 0 is also a neat exposition of Hegel’s dialectic.

I did see another great discussion on Lashtal about Hegel and Crowley. While the convo was informative, I did not see that anyone had a view of what “dialectics” are properly speaking, as well as Hegel’s in particular. (see here, oddly this page is not discoverable in site, only through search cache of some reason https://www.lashtal.com/?s=Hegel+&submit=Search)

We don’t even need to read Hegel or understand him to understand Hegelian dialectics, we just need 1 + -1 = 0.

In simple expression, a “thesis”, a truth someone is declaring, is met with its opposite in conversation, another view with a contradictory view of the same truth, the “antithesis”, and then the “child” of both of these viewpoints crashing into each other with violence or layering into each other with grace, either way the child is the same, a perfect absorption of the thesis and anti-thesis into a “synthesis”.

Exactly as 1 + -1 = 0 expresses mathematically.

I only apply Hegelian dialectics because Crowley did, in appeal to his writings we find this.

Crowley, in his writings, encouraged us to obtain the view of Hegel’s dialectic in his own writing in the collected works, a curious poem Crowley references in relation to the Dhammapada, called “Antithesis” (The Twins) a translation he once attempted, in his own words; “An attempt to translate this noblest of the Buddhist books into the original metres. The task soon tired. – A.C.»”

After he claims he abolished the translation, Crowley gives us a summary with ANTITHESIS, The Twins, defining the non-dual view of Buddhism and all systems, in simple language

“ ALL that we are from mind results, on mind is founded, built of mind.”

Then the verse takes us specifically to how the mind “finds” truth through falsehood “They who see falsehood in the Truth, imagine Truth to lurk in lies, Never arrive to know the Truth, but follow eager vanities. To whom in Truth the Truth is known, Falsehood in Falsehood doth appear, To them the Path of Truth is shown; right aspirations are their sphere!”

This entire view, including the dialectical, is all implied within the mathematicians view of the number line in counting, and in the three "implicate" numbers 0,1,2.

Programmatically speaking, the numbers 0, 1, 2 form the entire paralanguage in all discussion and conversation, including mapping words and semantics to actual psychological states of those participating.

I do believe Crowley was indeed aware of this vast mathematical architecture, even though his view at the time did not have pure mathematical language for it. He may not have been aware of unbalanced ternary paraconsistant logic as a language, but I 100% believe he was aware of the “view” that it can provide because the actual "para language" of the text remains consistent throughout.

What are other mathematical formulas Crowley uses in his writing to communicate his view like a mathematician would?

Thank you,

Sanguine Chuck

________________________________________________________________________

*Colophon of Misunderstanding

As a “noob” to the forum rules as well as the hidden and silent community rules of engagement, which are only discoverable once they are broken, I want to clarify my intention quickly at the top of this thread.

While we may use this forum in a “timely” way for our immediate gratification for social interaction, the discussions become “timeless*” media to everyone else to discover through internet searches, doing research, which is also how I exactly found Lashtal.

In the “discrepancies” thread, I mistakenly viewed it as a group conversation requiring the “non-dual” view of Thelema to understand. As it was, at least for ma, turning into a “hot topic”, I continued to post how I normally do on any platform, twitter, reddit, etc.

I made a mistake there, and I apologized in the thread, I was not aware I was breaking any posting rules.

I was also specifically invited to join the “Thelema and Non-Duality” thread were I was specifically invited to “drop whatever I discover about Non-Duality and Thelema” on the newly created thread, which is exactly what I proceeded to do, assuming I was keeping good form.

Then, from my view, only “Curb your enthusiasm” ensued, followed by a trail of miscommunication, misunderstanding, deep suspicion, and petty foibles creating the most severe of reactions, I was seeing this set of eyes...

I did the best I could to have fun with the chaos of it, and use it as a golden opportunity to view non-duality in a simple way, through communication, using this set of eyes...

We can put all of that behind us, yes? Move on to fun stuff?

Please come in good faith, as I am.

I post it here for either “timely” discussion now, but also as “timeless” media that may be discovered by anyone at any point in the future, and it may help them on their path for discovery.

That is my only intention. 100%!

Enough! Let’s move on to a holier place, hehe

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@david-dom-lemieux)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 3698

Take simple 'equations' e.g.  7 + x = 25.   The '=' symbol is a direct linguistic representation telling us that the left side equates to 25 also.   Amazing how two straight lines can convey so much.   Likewise with +,  - and  x

It begs the question does this realm of abstract contemplation contain truths that would exist without the human race anyway?  7 + 5 =12 after the extinction of all creatures on earth doesn't it?  Perhaps the Great Architect was satisfied when finally after all of the precise mathematical electron- arrangement sequences and lattices were instigated and Carbon met Hydrogen and Oxygen etc there finally came a creature (a particular brand of mammal who could say that 7+5= something because...

The pent (five)-agram is a precise symbol of five straight lines.  Did you know that the planet Venus (associated with Eve who ate the apple of knowledge) moves about the heavens making a strict pentagram pattern?   Furthermore slice an apple in half and you will see a star-shape i.e a pentagram in the centre of the split apple.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

(@sangewanchuck56)
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Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 468
Topic starter
Posted by: @dom

Hi Dom, nice to hear from you.

Posted by: @dom

Take simple 'equations' e.g.  7 + x = 25.   The '=' symbol is a direct linguistic representation telling us that the left side equates to 25 also.   Amazing how two straight lines can convey so much.   Likewise with +,  - and  x

Indeed something to appreciate. Additionally, this "perfect language", math–never has any disagreement, regardless of any ideological or tribal hatreds in the world, maths give us a language that we can always perfectly agree upon.

Consider that in the light of Chp3 "Argue not! Convert not! Talk not though overmuch!".

Well maths as a language naturally follow that same "drama", there is no need for argument, or any need to convert anyone, the perfect language communicates the reality with such precision, like a samurai sword, and it simply cannot be argued with especially in each individual state. Even our "inner" dialogue surrenders to the naturally occurring truth language of math.

Posted by: @dom

t begs the question does this realm of abstract contemplation contain truths that would exist without the human race anyway?  7 + 5 =12 after the extinction of all creatures on earth doesn't it?  Perhaps the Great Architect was satisfied when finally after all of the precise mathematical electron- arrangement sequences and lattices were instigated and Carbon met Hydrogen and Oxygen etc there finally came a creature (a particular brand of mammal who could say that 7+5= something because...

That has been a very rich question in Western philosophy alone, and believe it or not, a source of lots of conflict that I see playing out in academia, through the conversations between "STEM" and the "Humanities" divisions within the University system (at least here in the US).

Do we create maths, or do we discover maths?

And this question really boils down to which side of the paradigm you are on.

Is our "mind" (spirit, etc) just a function of our brains?

If yes to that question, then we can only "create" maths, because Nature, according to this view, has no inherent mind or intelligence.

If we take the view that everything exists in "mind" (spirit, etc), then all maths are a reflection of our "1 shared mind". A view point that is "our viewpoint", distinguished by our individual viewpoints, our inherent "subjectivity" that projects onto the "one shared mind"

Just like we all certainly tend to agree that the sky is blue on a clear day, the blue sky tends to appear as the blue sky to human observers on a clear day.

Posted by: @dom

The pent (five)-agram is a precise symbol of five straight lines.  Did you know that the planet Venus (associated with Eve who ate the apple of knowledge) moves about the heavens making a strict pentagram pattern?   Furthermore slice an apple in half and you will see a star-shape i.e a pentagram in the centre of the split apple.

Yes, this is a stunning "synchronicity", and additionally to Venus with this remarkable synchronicity, there are a number of others in our solar system.

• Saturn has a hexagram at the north pole! This one floored me upon discovery.
• From the "view" on Earth, the moon and the sun appear exactly the same size! What are the odds????
• All the planets, including the huge ones, Jupiter, Saturn, etc, every single planet in our solar system can fit the exact distance in-between the distance between Earth and the Moon!

That we discover a "measurable" natural universe, and then discover remarkable syncs that tease us with hidden meaning, it is quite an experience to feel the presence of that mystery.

Math gives us a specific view.

I find that the voice of Chp1 is giving us a view of the "hidden reality" but using the para language of math inherent in the prose. ( 1 + -1 = 0 )

And since we know that math gives us this perfect view, Chp2 gives us a compliment, the paralanguage of novelty, which is the "poetic" view. (0 = 2)

So combine now, combine the view of the mathematician, and the view of the poet.

The combined view of both is mathematical, and the combined experience of both is quite poetic, indeed.

Perhaps we neither create maths, nor discover them, but perhaps we both create, and discover, and this is perhaps participatory with "higher intelligence" itself, however each choose to define "higher intelligence" for themselves, with their own poetry.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 7115

It looks like somebody ran out of Fish and has returned for more.

It's always a fishy omen when an esteamed member starts changing his name and avatar pic/text. Be-ee-ee-ee-ee-ware!

(@sangewanchuck56)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 468
Topic starter
Posted by: @shiva

t looks like somebody ran out of Fish and has returned for more.

It's always a fishy omen when an esteamed member starts changing his name and avatar pic/text. Be-ee-ee-ee-ee-ware!

Shiva I really do not appreciate your generation of aspersions against me either on this thread as well as other threads, which you seem important to do for some odd reason.

Did I make some sort of formal announcement?

Did I generate any unambiguous statement as to either my state of mind or my participation in this forum?

No, you had your own idea about what it meant, and as usual, issue your aspersions and punishments based on your false ideas you believe to be true.

I said "goodbye".

I say goodbye often when I am leaving, it does not mean I am never to return.

I said "thanks for all the fish" because I used the word "fish" in the discussion specifically as an example of how easily misunderstandings can enter a conversation around different meanings of a single word.

Thanks for all the fish means 'Thanks for all the misunderstanding' as well as a play on the classic Douglas Adams.

I was far from hurt, it was predictable that you were willing to control the conversation to the point of, by any means necessary, stop the conversation itself.

What you did was rather predictable.

You're acting like an edge lord on a discussion forum.

Did you actually believe I wanted to "take over this forum"?

How childish.

This thread topic is not "About Sanguine Chuck, formally known as SangeWanchuck56", so I kindly ask you to stay on topic or go have your conversations elsewhere.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 7115

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Shiva I really do not appreciate your generation of aspersions

This would come under the categorization of "Tough Shinola!"  That is, you have behaved poorly, even with warnings from your so-called Brothers. No Sistren in sight, right now.

Then you say good-bye when The Real Coming One came and gave you the ultimatum.

But now you're back. In reference to your still-intact membership, in order to remove the general notion that you are a Troll, I suggest you shorten your posts drastically, and get to the point of the thread with your focused intent. Maybe you can be saved.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

... you seem important to do for some odd reason.

You are a source of disorder and metal agitation.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

This thread topic is not "About Sanguine Chuck, formally known as SangeWanchuck56", so I kindly ask you to stay on topic or go have your conversations elsewhere.

Any time YOU want to get back on-topic, with resonably focused posts, not ooveerrllyy long, the resistance will vanish. Also, anytime you want to drop the self-important guru act, even more resistance will fade.

magimaat reacted
(@sangewanchuck56)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 468
Topic starter
Posted by: @shiva

This would come under the categorization of "Tough Shinola!"  That is, you have behaved poorly, even with warnings from your so-called Brothers. No Sistren in sight, right now.

Was I the naughty one?

Was my real offense simply contradicting your poorly formed view of non-duality, and offering a correction in the discussion?

Posted by: @shiva

Then you say good-bye when The Real Coming One came and gave you the ultimatum.

Yes, I said goodbye, thanks for all the misunderstanding, I'm out of the "non-dual/discrepancies" conversation, or any conversation actually, unless someone willingly participates in a conversation I started.

You don't like that?

What was your word preference, shinola?

Posted by: @shiva

But now you're back.

Well, sure you could look at it that way. You can look at it however you want, it is YOUR view, and it is the most important one here

Got it.

Posted by: @shiva

In reference to your still-intact membership, in order to remove the general notion that you are a Troll, I suggest you shorten your posts drastically, and get to the point of the thread with your focused intent. Maybe you can be saved.

I don't need to be saved from anything.

You wish to view me as a troll because you were challenged in a conversation, and instead of simply acknowledging you made a mistake, or had a misunderstanding, you did something remarkably irresponsible in today's world, you attacked an individual for being "insane", requesting they "seek help", and all because the topic of the conversation went over your head.

You actually told me to call 911.

Can you imagine if I actually called 911 and told them that someone on the internet said I am crazy, and that I should seek help? That would have been the most insane thing for me to do.

Forget about any "non-dual" attainment you claim to have, I hardly see any evidence of the 5/6 with dark psychology like that expressing itself.

Posted by: @shiva

You are a source of disorder and metal agitation.

I assume you are saying I am a source of your mental disorder and mental agitation.

Well I am not.

you are the source of that.

Show off some of your attainment and transmute that 'agitation' into the "voidness" you brag so much about obtaining.

Posted by: @shiva

Any time YOU want to get back on-topic, with resonably focused posts, not ooveerrllyy long, the resistance will vanish. Also, anytime you want to drop the self-important guru act, even more resistance will fade.

I have had to go through worm hole after worm hole attempting to keep the conversation on topic according to the rules as you explain them to me, and everytime I do, you appear to find a new "rule" that I am breaking.

You keep making me the conversation, what do you expect?

If you would like me to leave this community, just ask.

Just be honest.

Say "hey dude, we dont speak your lingo, these ain't your parts, best move on" and I will.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@magimaat)
Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 3

Consider that in the light of Chp3 "Argue not! Convert not! Talk not though overmuch!".

I compute that as it speaks. Don't push your point, dont preach, dont try and persuade another, and don't go down the rabbit holes of trying to convert every event to the great plan of which there is no plan.

Let it flow. Maybe not make the math fit the universe, If everything flowed the nature would create the equations like a Periwinkle in a field of Perwinkle.

“They who see falsehood in the Truth, imagine Truth to lurk in lies, Never arrive to know the Truth, but follow eager vanities. To whom in Truth the Truth is known, Falsehood in Falsehood doth appear, To them the Path of Truth is shown; right aspirations are their sphere!”

Otherwise it gets too complicated, truth isn't complicated. One can get so caught up chasing shadows that they miss what is right in front of them all the time, the rose.

You reacted
(@sangewanchuck56)
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Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 468
Topic starter
Posted by: @magimaat

I compute that as it speaks. Don't push your point, dont preach, dont try and persuade another, and don't go down the rabbit holes of trying to convert every event to the great plan of which there is no plan.

"computing" is a mathematical term, interesting word choice.

And sure, Liber al Vel Legis can extend its wisdom all the way down to the level of Boy Scout pledges, but since the book itself tells the reader that the book is a code of some kind, with secrets to be discovered, hidden riddles, and all I am doing is viewing Liber al Vel Legis in the manner that I believe it is requesting.

Math is "part" of the view of Liber al Vel Legis.

Controversial for me to claim?

Posted by: @magimaat

Let it flow. Maybe not make the math fit the universe, If everything flowed the nature would create the equations like a Periwinkle in a field of Perwinkle.

Well I would advise anyone against letting it "flow" in this forum, it tends to cause psychotic reactions in those that believe they are the edge lords of the community.

That the view I describe is BOTH the mathematical application, AND it's opposite (art, poetry, etc), is entirely consistent with the great work, and the text, and the transmutation of opposites.

If the duality of "math and poetry", and how they both can work together, is too upsetting, just ask me to leave, please.

Posted by: @magimaat

Otherwise it gets too complicated, truth isn't complicated. One can get so caught up chasing shadows that they miss what is right in front of them all the time, the rose.

The entire exposition of Liber al Vel Legis, as i read it, is the identical exposition of the "two truths" of Buddhism.

"Math" is just one half of the formula.

The relationship between the Absolute Truth, and the Relative Truth.

It's one thing to use poetic language, "the rose", and another thing to generate a rational understanding that can be expressed into language so it can be shared and passed on, generation to generation, which is something that actual traditions have to concern themselves with.

I do not see Liber al Vel Legis being apart of any tradition that is doing that.

That there could be a mathematical language that expresses this in Liber Al Vel Legis is a treat to find.

A "rose", so to speak.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 7115

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

What was your word preference, shinola?

Actually, I liked the p[art about "Your immature obsession with dung is tiresome."

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I don't need to be saved from anything.

[Silence]

... except for warnings or alerts when the Scriptures Guidelines are violated.

Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 557

@shiva

Get another life...frankly your the one who ruined the other thread, just as your butting in here with comments not relevant to the thread is rude and uncalled for...the basic equation is that your full of it and a squealer! So shut up if you can.

(@sangewanchuck56)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 468
Topic starter

just as your butting in here with comments not relevant to the thread is rude and uncalled for...the basic equation is that your full of it and a squealer!

Thank you amigo, for offering to stick up for "The Naughty One", on this thread and on the Discrepancies thread.

Honestly, not hurt about the reaction, not one bit.

I saw it coming days before it happened, and I even posted about sensing this disturbance early on in the discussion. A few members here are quite passive aggressive in their communication which makes this prediction rather simple.

I am keenly aware of the length of my posts, which I enjoy detailing with as much contextual completeness as I can muster in a short amount of space, can be a lot to read. But surely much shorter to read than an entire book, or even a magazine article?

Considering the topic, Non-Duality, I believe I have summarized a very very complex topic into something digest-able, and most importantly for "future internet surfers", doing their own research, will find these discussions and what is contained therein to help them on their journey of discovery.

I expect challenges, and especially skeptical voices, because that is what tests my ability to explain things from a new and different angle, helping my own "understanding" immensely.

I assumed, before arriving here, that the "non-duality" of Thelema was already flushed out and common knowledge, including the similarities found in Himalayan tantra.

Therefore, from my view, I was both invited to post about discoveries of Non-Duality in Thelema, as well as having a wonderful burden of introducing the view of Thelemic Non-Duality, which is not what I was expecting at all. So that thread  was likely unusual in scope and "performance", since I started writing in the paralanguage I was describing, which is fun for me, as both a creative writer and an analytical writer  🤓

I started this thread to tease apart one layer of the complexity of Non-Duality, what I call the "mathematical" view, because this layer is the easiest layer to digest at first, and should be the most non-controversial of any of my over-all claim.

There is method to my madness, I can assure you 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4161

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I believe I have summarized a very very complex topic into something digest-able

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I assumed, before arriving here, that the "non-duality" of Thelema was already flushed out

Pardon the Freudian reductionism. Monty Python riddle some recent posts have reminded me of:

Q: What's brown and sounds like a bell?

A: Duuuung!

I think your posts are sometimes interesting, almost always much too long, and sometimes seem to be the product of manic-ness.

Once more, slow down. This is not the place for anything remotely like

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

an entire book, or even a magazine article

If you have things to say at that length it, is easy enough to start a blog, or to write and self-publish books (as several here have done).

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Posted by: @ignant666

Pardon the Freudian reductionism. Monty Python riddle some recent posts have reminded me of:

You sir, are a genius.

Posted by: @ignant666

I think your posts are sometimes interesting, almost always much too long, and sometimes seem to be the product of manic-ness.

Well, I can understand that, but I am not "manic", nor bi-polar, I just happen to write prolifically and I have a lot of creative energy, as well as other members of my family, must be some gene. Would I mind an editor? Not at all.

I am also a responsible parent, and also responsible for managing teams, and responsible for communicating rather large scopes of information and then managing their execution, and often I do this all through email communications.

I appreciate your concern, however, but it is not warranted, but I will keep things shorter and shorter!

Posted by: @ignant666

If you have things to say at that length it, is easy enough to start a blog, or to write and self-publish books (as several here have done).

Well, sure. However, I am not about to create a blog about tantra, magick, thelema, etc, as this is all my private study. As I have said, the things I have shared in these conversations are things I have not shared with anyone else in my life, and it came out rather spontaneously in this conversation.

And the reason the posts are "long" is because I have been told not to "double post", which is what I would do to break a few passages up, or string it out over a longer conversation, so the long posts are me adjusting to the other rules of the forum.

Note, I am responding to many posters, something like 5 to 1, so naturally my output will be more because I have more responses.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

this is all my private study.

Not any more dude. You are posting about these matters, at prolific length, in public. Publish a blog, or some books, anonymously, and you can be way more private than posting here.

But anyway, feel free to ignore my advice; folks often do, sometimes to their profit. Perhaps there is a topic here to return to?

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Posted by: @ignant666

Publish a blog, or some books, anonymously, and you can be way more private than posting here.

But anyway, feel free to ignore my advice; folks often do, sometimes to their profit.

Well actually, you are probably right, I never even knew I had this "prolific" content to share until I arrived here! Truly. And I was not expecting to happen what did happen. And it is a fascinating topic to explore. I probably should!

I just have a few things on my plate, applications of non-duality, that are just way more interesting and will wind up taking up my public presence.

Yes, what are your thoughts on my suggestion, that there is, amongst other things, a mathematical view and language contained within Liber al Vel Legis that concludes in a "non-dual" experience or state of being, Sunyata?

You think there is anything to that view worth exploring?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@shiva)
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Get another life...frankly your the one who ruined the other thread, just as your butting in here with comments not relevant to the thread is rude and uncalled for...the basic equation is that your full of it and a squealer! So shut up if you can.

Aha!  I guess the drugs people think you are taking, but I don't (think you are), have worn off and you have entered the kranky phase.

You are really supporting WSangre Chuck is his ravings, such as ...

The Key to AL is ShT? (with an "i")?

Please note: I did not snitch with this person. I did not push the "Report" button. So, you see, you are confused as to who did what to whom, and who did what first before the other replied. I recommend a through course in Masonry and General (linear time) Perception.

Posted by: @ignant666

If you have things to say at that length it, is easy enough to start a blog, or to write and self-publish books (as several here have done).

Right. Now that HG has moved over to the dark side, it seems a civil war is brewing. I may just disconnect (unlikely), or I may just cruise elsewhere (likely).

I wonder how anyone cannot see the contamination of a disruptive person who cannot focus on something practical. I suspect the Palestinians Australians are back in the frorm of Magimaat. We must now prepare for rocket fire, coming from down under (the equator). Late Spring Fever Alerts must be sounded. The Summer Solstice is only about 2 weeks away.

I will not deal with the rest of this drivel. I will just remind you (anyone) that a person has appeared who claims to be living in bliss in his daily life, and who pointedly told us that we (all of us others) that we are dwelling in duality. It is difficult to maintain sanity in the face of such overwhelming divinity.

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I have nothing to contribute to any discussion of mathematics. One thing i will say, is that you seem to be using "sunyata", which i understand to mean nothingness, zero, nil, nada, as synonymous with "non-duality".

I don't think this is right, or is rather right from only one direction (from "up" looking "down"), but not right developmentally or chronologically, at least for me personally, and in the AC/A.'. A.'. system as i understand it.

n = 1 (where n represents an arbitrary number of phenomena, not just 2) is an easier perception/experience/knowing to come by than the later shutting up of the internal talking monkey entirely (n = 1 = 0).

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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

You are really supporting WSangre Chuck is his ravings, such as ...

hadgigegenraum  or anyone else does not have "support" my claims to see that you are being a jerk.

And your continual claim about what I share, referring to it as "Ravings", "manic writing", or any form of mental disturbance, ("irrationality" etc), would introduce contradictions in conversation.

I specifically requested from you and others, hey, please "show me" where I am making contradictions, if this is a delusion, kindly show me my delusion.

That is a sincere request. Still is. Can you "rationally" explain what you mean?

Why do I have to be a troll, manic, a predator, just so you can be right?

If all I hear is "call 911, your crazy, your a predator, your a stalker, your a troll" in response, I can only assume you have no rational assessment at all, and are simply reverting to "circuit 2 and circuit 3" squabbles, as Leary would say.

The Key to AL is ShT? (with an "i")?

Correct, when reading Liber al Vel Legis through a specific interpretation, using solely the paralanguage of the text and appeal solely to Crowley's writings, that is what can be arrived at.

A rational inquiry would ask "How so?"

Now, in response to me, your pattern so far has been "SILENCE, HE IS CHORONZON!" but I suggest you avoid the real conversation happening with me because this is where all of your contradictions are, and all you're doing is what all of us do unconsciously, we tend to want to avoid all of our unresolved contradictions.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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Posted by: @ignant666

I have nothing to contribute to any discussion of mathematics. One thing i will say, is that you seem to be using "sunyata", which i understand to mean nothingness, zero, nil, nada, as synonymous with "non-duality".

Yes, you are absolutely correct.

Posted by: @ignant666

don't think this is right, or is rather right from only one direction (from "up" looking "down"), but not right developmentally or chronologically, at least for me personally, and in the AC/A.'. A.'. system as i understand it.

Wow, please stay with me in this discussion, this is amazing. Yes, I see how that can appear, and it does appear that way from that view, however...

Posted by: @ignant666

n = 1 (where n represents an arbitrary number of phenomena, not just 2) is an easier perception/experience/knowing to come by than the later shutting up of the internal talking monkey entirely (n = 1 = 0).

is also correct! We both see the same thing! (and we are both using maths, I see what you did there)

"Non-duality", Sunyata, etc begins in malkuth. It begins right here in this text and conversation!

Any stage on any "path", AA or otherwise, the tree of life based system or a masonic based system are all teaching "sunyata" provisionally at a specific level of development.

Now, do you see our perfect consensus yet?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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I don't see how you can respond to me saying "But 'sunyata' and 'non-duality' are not the same thing!" by saying i am agreeing with you.

Furthermore, in A.'. A.'. terms,"non-duality" does not start til after a whole lot of multiplication of entities- there are many gods and demons and spirits and goblins and space-men, etc. before there is only one thing, and then no things after that.

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Posted by: @ignant666

I don't see how you can respond to me saying "But 'sunyata' and 'non-duality' are not the same thing!" by saying i am agreeing with you.

I am sorry, perhaps I miscommunicated, I am saying that sunyata and non-duality are the same thing, and there are just (an infinite number) of varying degrees of "nothingness", and I am saying that it appears you and I are in agreement.

Posted by: @ignant666

Furthermore, in A.'. A.'. terms,"non-duality" does not start til after a whole lot of multiplication of entities- there are many gods and demons and spirits and goblins and space-men, etc. before there is only one thing, and then no things after that.

I cannot comment on the A.'. A.'. system, but based on what little you have shared with me already, we are seeing the same thing.

The A.'. A.'.'s "actual state of non-duality", as a direct experience, if I understand you correctly, does not begin until after a "whole lota tantra" as I would say in my own jargon, is consistent, if we are referring to the pure and actual state of non-duality (keter and beyond)

Until we arrive at the pure and natural state, there are an almost infinite number of opposites to harmonize, these are all the "provisional" teachings (of all systems, I would add) which all lead only to one place.

One palace.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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Posted by: @ignant666

Furthermore, in A.'. A.'. terms,"non-duality" does not start til after a whole lot of multiplication of entities- there are many gods and demons and spirits and goblins and space-men, etc. before there is only one thing, and then no things after that.

Yes. There are "no things after that" because the concept of a separate self has dissolved. That's all. Mathematics and Explanations will not suffice. "Extinguish thy Self. HIMOG are thou and HIMOG shalt thou be" (or something like that).

The "One Palace," at its core, is an empty shrine.

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@sangewanchuck56
Thought you were initiated into Anattā.
You are Full of it and full of your Self and display too much need too much grasping too much too much attachment too much mental disturbance.

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Posted by: @tiger

... too much mental disturbance.

Be careful, now. When I suggested the same, I got accused of hate crimes ... and of starting this circus.

Let us pray return to the discrepancies of the imp Crowley. He is the one responsible for inserting the Horus concept into the realm of Osiris.

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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Indeed something to appreciate. Additionally, this "perfect language", math–never has any disagreement, regardless of any ideological or tribal hatreds in the world, maths give us a language that we can always perfectly agree upon.

Consider that in the light of Chp3 "Argue not! Convert not! Talk not though overmuch!".

Well maths as a language naturally follow that same "drama", there is no need for argument, or any need to convert anyone, the perfect language communicates the reality with such precision, like a samurai sword, and it simply cannot be argued with especially in each individual state. Even our "inner" dialogue surrenders to the naturally occurring truth language of math.

Yes exactly.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

That has been a very rich question in Western philosophy alone, and believe it or not, a source of lots of conflict that I see playing out in academia, through the conversations between "STEM" and the "Humanities" divisions within the University system (at least here in the US).

Do we create maths, or do we discover maths?

And this question really boils down to which side of the paradigm you are on.

Is our "mind" (spirit, etc) just a function of our brains?

If yes to that question, then we can only "create" maths, because Nature, according to this view, has no inherent mind or intelligence.

If we take the view that everything exists in "mind" (spirit, etc), then all maths are a reflection of our "1 shared mind". A view point that is "our viewpoint", distinguished by our individual viewpoints, our inherent "subjectivity" that projects onto the "one shared mind"

Just like we all certainly tend to agree that the sky is blue on a clear day, the blue sky tends to appear as the blue sky to human observers on a clear day.

We have ten digits i.e. 2 thumbs and 8 fingers, is this the reason we favour denary?    Slightly different subject but note that the Mayans didn't use the Western calendar system and their system was based on the movements of Venus.

By the way there are astounding facts relating to maths in Nature per se e.g. the intricate shapes that bees make in their hives.  I think knowledge of Pi may be a lot older than we're taught.  Look at the symbol for Pi it looks like StoneHenge. I haven't googled it but I think that the two stones and the top stone at rest form a ratio of 22 to 7 with the top stone being 7 of course.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56
•
• All the planets, including the huge ones, Jupiter, Saturn, etc, every single planet in our solar system can fit the exact distance in-between the distance between Earth and the Moon!

T

Jupiter can fit in between the Earth and Moon?  Are you sure?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

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Posted by: @shiva

The "One Palace," at its core, is an empty shrine.

There are four gates to one palace, enter and turn at once the four gates.

The 'secret key', which Nuit tells us in plain language is "nothing", and Ain Soph as 61, is that high exalted state of Sunyata as an actual experience (The Buddha View).

This "nothing" is not the opposite of something. That is a dualistic interpretation of "nothing".

This "nothing" is equal to the entire sum of the infinite number line. It is impossible to have a summary there, impossible to have a total value.

Does that mean that numbers do not exist? That there are no numbers on the infinite number line?

No, of course not.

The words "non-duality", "voidness", "nothingness", "emptiness", "Sunyata" are all traps as well as they are sign-posts, they can cause just as much confusion as they can lead to further understanding.

Posted by: @shiva

Mathematics and Explanations will not suffice.

That's silly, a bit uninformed.

The placeholder for a transcendent in math is the number 0.

Without a placeholder for the transcendent value, the entire number line does not work.

The entire number line continues, without interruption, seamlessly, effortlessly, into infinity.

My mind, your mind, and our mind can also continue, without interruption, seamlessly, effortlessly, into infinity.

The number zero, written in Sanskrit, is also the name Sunyata.

Yet the mathematical zero did not come into existence I believe until 800AD, a relic from Islam which carried over into our modern counting.

The history of zero is tricky.

In Buddhism, this is called "The Mind Stream", which is the closest thing we get to an actual "self", and in Liber al Vel Legis, Nuit calls this "The consciousness of the continuity of existence, the omnipresence of my body."

Posted by: @shiva

There are "no things after that" because the concept of a separate self has dissolved. That's all.

That's always true, about every possible state.

There is the actual state of being, and then there is the concept about that state of being.

Posted by: @tiger

You are Full of it and full of your Self and display too much need too much grasping too much too much attachment too much mental disturbance.

Well I see that you are too full of your own projections.

Now that we have, once again, exchanged "views" about each other, let me ask you a question...

Who cares?

Posted by: @shiva

You are once again, in this thread, off topic. If you would like to discuss discrepancies around Crowley, I do believe there is a thread dedicated to that. And dying quickly. Hurry, it could use some help.

Posted by: @dom

By the way there are astounding facts relating to maths in Nature per se e.g. the intricate shapes that bees make in their hives.  I think knowledge of Pi may be a lot older than we're taught.  Look at the symbol for Pi it looks like StoneHenge. I haven't googled it but I think that the two stones and the top stone at rest form a ratio of 22 to 7 with the top stone being 7 of course.

I follow you brother! Its been years, but there was a time I was knee deep in the "numbers", and learning about the ancient Pythagorean Mystery Schools is a deep dive that will not disappoint.

Prime numbers is where the game gets really really interesting!

Posted by: @dom

Jupiter can fit in between the Earth and Moon?  Are you sure?

Oh yes...

You could fit all the planets in between the earth and the moon.

Here is the hexagon of Saturn

Venus pentagram orbit

However, that is when we assume the planets are spinning around the sun on some two dimensional

sphere, which is not the actual pathway.

The pathway of our sun and the planets through the galaxy is more like a spiral, like in Aikido, or a sperm cell, heading towards the egg!

Many are called, few are chosen 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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Posted by: @tiger

Posted by:

You are Full of it and full of your Self and display too much need too much grasping too much too much attachment too much mental disturbance.

Well I see that you are too full of your own projections.

Now that we have, once again, exchanged "views" about each other, let me ask you a question...

Who cares?

How can Tiger be anything other than a projection upon the screen of your own consciousness?

This is not a rhetorical question. You have been accused of being all "Me, Me, Me." You have replied by stating that Tiger is a Projector...but you, also, have shown yourself as the same. It's no sin. But we want to get at something here, don't we?

Who cares?

Well, I might. WHAT is going on here? Is "Bloody Chuck" a "troll" as has been suggested? I don't think so-and I'm glad you came back after digesting "all the fish."

I alluded to the A.A. Grades a while back. I don't think we have a mutual understanding. But that's hardly a crime.

Are you here because-gee whiz-you've never met an online forum like this before to discuss Crowley...or are you here to challenge Shiva in the Octagon and flex the pecs?

Well...why ARE you spending time here on Lashtal, posting on the forums? WHAT is your basic motivation?

The Hexagon at Saturn has been a pivotal point in my own esoteric research. I'll look forward to what you think this means for the human existential voyage.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Why do you assume Dom is Male?

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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

How can Tiger be anything other than a projection upon the screen of your own consciousness?

In order for you to "get it," you must realize something (which you already do, but I'll remind you ...

The difference between being, um, disturbed, and "normal" involves recognition. If a person says, "I think I might be crazy," they probably are not. If they absolutely deny it with great defense and assorted excuses, trouble may be brewing.

Among the defenses are the concepts of "projection" and "reflection/mirrors." These concepts are quite true when we consider that everything we see and encounter is simply a reflection or a projection of our inner states ... but we don't get to appreciate to appreciate that viewpoint 'til we've dropped the separate-self idea.

Down here in the forums, usually convened at Hod, this concept fades away. Some may say that one can be in the selfless state while reading or debating at Hod and, in theory, this could be true. But I don't see that being demonstrated by anyone nearby.

In terms of finding any keys or tricks that will produce "enlightenment," I would say this is folly. The Book implies the same. I had this discussion with Duck (he disappeared at the beginning of the lockdown). He thought I was wrong, and he was determined to "attain" through math and diagrams and base 22s. He was a nice, humble, self-effacing person who provided a lot of entertainment and great pics. I wonder if he's "attained" yet?

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

hy do you assume Dom is Male?

Oh, I spilled the beans on that one. Sorry, my projection. I stated that "No Sistren are present." It was me/I who set that scene, and what happens? A suspected fem arrived, known as MagiMaat, and (oh my god), batten down the hatches.

Athough it could be Dominique, I assume dom/david is male. I confess. Some other folks are male/female according to their pics (not their avatars), so we have a better basis for assumptions with them.

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The moment-to-moment continuum of sense impressions and mental phenomena, cyclic sequences without beginning or end based on linguistic categories, intellectual constructs, culturally constructed and the constantly changing psychic faculty, on erroneous superimpositions in order to reify itself; is what is to be freed.
Shunyata doesn’t build up reality, it is a heuristic device used to helps break down our fixed concepts.
Trying to solidify the not-quite-real sense of being by trying to come up with the “right answer” or ‘ultimate truth’ or resolve the unresolvable paradox; with I have the answer ! Or Yeah-but; is just another reification stream.

Allow be open.

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@kidneyhawk

You said:

"The Hexagon at Saturn has been a pivotal point in my own esoteric research. I'll look forward to what you think this means for the human existential voyage."

How about sharing why the Hexagon on Saturn is pivotal to your esoteric research...It would be nice if Sanguine Chuck piped in, but then again we would probably be barraged by the usual cast of hecklers with nothing to say.

What I will say as concerns this feature on Saturn, is that I have only seen photos of it, and not through a telescope for myself. Assuming the phenomenon is true, and secondly that it is a natural phenomena, the what we have is another example of a higher ordering principles present in natural living phenomena of the universe.

I am sure that there are many "occult/esoteric" associations that can be made, particularly as the geometric pattern speaks to a number, an interesting number in consideration of monsieur Crowley's work as little sunshine hear on earth might resonate with that outer planet, now found to have a hex of a tattoo of sorts on its pole...one could go on and on...

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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

This is not a rhetorical question. You have been accused of being all "Me, Me, Me." You have replied by stating that Tiger is a Projector...but you, also, have shown yourself as the same. It's no sin.

It's no sin, but it sure gets messy if we are not aware that is the phenomenon in question.

Tiger is a projector. I am a projector. That is what we human beings do best, project our internal reality onto the external world.

But we want to get at something here, don't we?

Yes.

The natural state of our concepts is a state of natural conflict.

It does not matter what the concepts are about.

The concepts can be about politics, religions, culture, people, or what to eat for dinner.

All of those concepts are in conflict with other concepts when believed to be true.

When we get attached to our concepts, we confuse concepts as "people". We confuse the natural state of concepts, which is one of conflict, with the natural state of "people", which is one of collaboration, and thus, we find ourselves in battle with people.

Because the nature of ideas and concepts is bloody war with other ideas and concepts, a process that is actually in service to humanity, confusing concepts as people means we attempt to do to "people" what our ideas are doing to each other, destroy each other's "truth value".

Instead of isolating the concept in question, those who get attached will try to censor, maim, ban, even kill those who are spreading concepts they are in conflict with because they are unconsciously engaging with the "war of concepts", confusing people and self as an idea.

Online, this general dynamic is exasperated, however, because of online it makes the psychological projection easier to isolate, and thus transform.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Well...why ARE you spending time here on Lashtal, posting on the forums? WHAT is your basic motivation?

Well, the initial motivation was me following my own "bliss" (in the Joseph Campbell sense) researching the movement of the Himalayan Dharma into the West.

From then on, it was really just my own intuition, something was drawing me to these conversations, and I trust that intuitive feeling, even if I do not know where it leads.

Now, well because of this experience, which has been extraordinary for me, the experience is quite odd. My Journey began in the West probably more than 30 years ago. 20 years ago I had an extraordinary experience and set of circumstances that changed my life, yet it took me almost those same 20 years to complete that experience which is what my journey into the Vajrayana of the Himalaya has done.

Yet, I had to come back to the West, come back to Liber al Vel Legis, come back to this community, to "complete the completion", if that makes any sense.

I have no idea what to do with this all yet, but I do tell you truly, I cherish this and will be reflecting on it for quite some time.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The Hexagon at Saturn has been a pivotal point in my own esoteric research. I'll look forward to what you think this means for the human existential voyage.

Truly, I have no wisdom here, just a million hunchbacks 🙂

The only thing I know for absolutely certain is that there is a friggin' hexagon on Saturn 🤓

And really, I only know for certain is that it appears like a hexagon to our human instrument, our human mind. And our one shared mind sees a hexagon, and for the shared mind of the global esoteric community including ultra orthodox jews, this holds some powerful "syncro-mysticism", and a key to unlock inner experiences of a Saturnian nature, no doubt!

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Why do you assume Dom is Male?

I am quite uncomfortable with my answer at the moment. I'm not sure how to responsibly communicate "Rah Roh", so I'll try to get back to you on this one 🙂

HeadsUp: Normally this is where I would "end" a post. It is long enough. Because I cannot double or triple post, a reply for a reply, this means now this post is going to be getting obnoxiously long.

Posted by: @tiger

Trying to solidify the not-quite-real sense of being by trying to come up with the “right answer” or ‘ultimate truth’ or resolve the unresolvable paradox; with I have the answer ! Or Yeah-but; is just another reification stream.

Is what you are presenting here therefore the "right answer" and the "right path" for us then?

All paradoxes are resolved above the abyss, and they can also be resolved below the abyss.

Would you like to try this exercise with me?

I will show you how to liquefy that which can be solidified.

I will show you that the unresolvable, and the resolvable, are just one more duality that can be resolved and harmonized.

There are no unresolved paradoxes above the abyss, all paradoxes are continually resolving.

How about sharing why the Hexagon on Saturn is pivotal to your esoteric research...It would be nice if Sanguine Chuck piped in, but then again we would probably be barraged by the usual cast of hecklers with nothing to say.

I am so flattered that some are suggesting I would have this wisdom! But I do not.

KidneyHawk, as the "starter" of this thread, I hereby declare your "hexagon on Saturn" research on topic 🙂

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

The Hexagon at Saturn has been a pivotal point in my own esoteric research. I'll look forward to what you think this means for the human existential voyage.

I would've been more impressed if the hexagon (6 -sided) was somehow embedded in our Sun what with Tipareth being the 6th sephiroth and all.

; / )

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

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@dom

Posted by: @dom

I would've been more impressed if the hexagon (6 -sided) was somehow embedded in our Sun what with Tipareth being the 6th sephiroth and all.

Saturn was known as the sun of night in near eastern mythology. You might find this interesting.

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Posted by: @pertinax

Saturn was known as the sun of night in near eastern mythology. You might find this interesting.

That's stretching it....I'm looking for a pentagon on Mars.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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I am sorry to interrupt and I haven't read ALL the other answers so far, but the thing that ruined "the other thread" was a) the forum rules, b) the unsubstantiated claim of "SHIT" being the solution to all Liber AL matters without ever giving any hint to why and how and really? and c) addressing all members doubtful of the claim with nothing but "YOU'RE AFRAID OF FECES!" Meaning, the other thread was bullshit.

I am now going to read what has been going on from there.

Love=Law

Lutz

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

I believe I have summarized a very very complex topic into something digest-able,

Believe me, you haven't. You just muttered something "funny" without anymore coherence than that someone you know had this "funny" misreading. There wasn't any clue to why this would be in any way important or at least meaningful. Anyway, is this about the other thread or this one?

Love=Law

Lutz

(@shiva)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

... the other thread or this one?

This one, of course. If we want to keep the living threads unlocked.

Anyway, as I said, "Enlightenment" is not dependent upon maths or formulas. These are useful in ordering the mind, which is a form of alignment, which is preparatory to "attaining enlightenment," or some similar phrase.

(@tiger)
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@sangewanchuck56

Your journey into the Vajrayana anatta for 20 years to solidify the self.
Can you show me that you have learned something from the Vajrayana and liquefy ?

(@sangewanchuck56)
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Hello everyone,

A number of replies means this post will be on the longer side.
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

I am sorry to interrupt and I haven't read ALL the other answers so far, but the thing that ruined "the other thread" was a) the forum rules, b) the unsubstantiated claim of "SHIT" being the solution to all Liber AL matters without ever giving any hint to why and how and really? and c) addressing all members doubtful of the claim with nothing but "YOU'RE AFRAID OF FECES!" Meaning, the other thread was bullshit.

Oh my goodness Simon, how can you both claim to "not read" all the answers so far, and then claim to have such certainty as to the cause and effect of the situation?

Unsubstantiated?

Dear sir, I offered to give you a walkthrough of the falsification, I asked if you understood the first step (which is arriving at the correct "paralanguage" with which to read each chapter) and all I got in response was crickets, plus more references to caca.

Claiming my claim is unsubstantiated is fighting words, in the "as brothers fight ye" sense.

Dukes up!

How do you claim to have such understanding of my posts about non-duality and Thelema if you are not reading them?

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Believe me, you haven't.

Why would I believe you? You're an absolute stranger on the internet.

I am the one who has done the work and I am the one who has proofs coming out of my ears for the most of the claims on non-duality.

You are the one not reading everything, not a very believable suspect, amigo 🙂

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

There wasn't any clue to why this would be in any way important or at least meaningful.

Well, maybe not in those two or three posts you read there wasn't.

The word "ShT" is just the key to the "real" and very "glad" word of Liber al Vel Legis, which is Sunyata.

The word "ShT" is just a working "proof" that Sunyata indeed is the real and definitive teaching of Liber al Vel Legis, as contained in the text.

Meaning Liber al Vel Legis can be read in such a way that you can try an interpretation and see how far you can get with it, and when a correct interpretation is arrived at for any one given line, there will be a "proof" for that within the text to confirm that.

This is all falsifiable, but we have to go through each step.

This thread, the "maths" that Crowley himself uses, as well as Nuit in Liber al Vel Legis, are some but not all of the language that is being to communicate and teach "Sunyata".

Crowley was a Buddhist at the time of the reception of Liber al Vel Legis.

He was absolutely aware of the word "Sunyata".

The problem with the other thread was that everyone got fixated on the "naughty word", and not what the "naughty word" unlocks, which is a very sophisticated teaching of Sunyata.

Now, if I can discover a sophisticated teaching of Sunyata within Liber al Vel Legis, and even @ignant666 agrees with me that Sunyata IS Non-Duality (independent from which view on the tree), then Liber al Vel Legis itself is the proof on Non-Duality in Thelema, because its primary holy book is nothing else but a dedicated teaching of Sunyata.

Posted by: @shiva

The difference between being, um, disturbed, and "normal" involves recognition. If a person says, "I think I might be crazy," they probably are not. If they absolutely deny it with great defense and assorted excuses, trouble may be brewing.

@Shiva, you simply must be confronted on this because what you are sharing here has so much confusion packed inside of it that someone could actually get hurt or harm themselves following your advice.

The "difference" between a disturbed person, with varying degrees of insanity, and a calm mind are very simple.

A disturbed mind cannot distinguish between true, false, and unknown.

A really disturbed mind at the level of "call 911", cannot distinguish between true and false.

What you are describing is one of the themes of what made mental hospitals the biggest causes of insanity throughout the 19th and early 20th century.

Maybe you should consider that a sane person, being accused of being "insane", has no way out in your scenario.

And this means that if you make just one bad judgement, you could unintentionally torture a mind into hell.

Seriously, stop that. You clearly have zero understanding of psychology. You're being irresponsible here.

Among the defenses are the concepts of "projection" and "reflection/mirrors." These concepts are quite true when we consider that everything we see and encounter is simply a reflection or a projection of our inner states ... but we don't get to appreciate to appreciate that viewpoint 'til we've dropped the separate-self idea.

huh? Can you show me where this rule is?

Down here in the forums, usually convened at Hod, this concept fades away.Some may say that one can be in the selfless state while reading or debating at Hod and, in theory, this could be true. But I don't see that being demonstrated by anyone nearby.

When you are viewing things through a duality, you will not see it, 100% of the time.

In terms of finding any keys or tricks that will produce "enlightenment," I would say this is folly.

"Keys or tricks" to produce enlightenment are called "termas", or hidden teachings. These "tricks" are called "skillful means" in the Himalaya, so you have a big contradiction here.

What are you doing practicing magick then, if you believe it is folly?

The Book implies the same. I had this discussion with Duck (he disappeared at the beginning of the lockdown). He thought I was wrong, and he was determined to "attain" through math and diagrams and base 22s. He was a nice, humble, self-effacing person who provided a lot of entertainment and great pics. I wonder if he's "attained" yet?

If anyone is interpreting anything I have shared with the take away that maths lead to enlightenment are not following and reading my posts!

We are talking about a literary work, written in specific voices with specific characters, a "magical tome".

Liber al Vel Legis is a magical spell. Math and poetry are just two voices the work is written in.

I am flabbergasted that you or anyone would view this as a controversial claim.

Posted by: @shiva

Anyway, as I said, "Enlightenment" is not dependent upon maths or formulas.

Can you at least tell the forum what you mean by "enlightenment"?

And what ever you think it is, do you really think that such a phenomenon is either turned ON in attainment and OFF until that?

The entire point of the Great Work is civilization building.

The Great Work is not here for your personal and selfish enlightenment.

The Great Work is here to assist your enlightenment through being of service to humanity.

The Great Work is about creating powerful CONCEPTS that eventually emerge into society, ultimately leading to a Golden Age or "The tabernacle of the Holy Ghost" as Crowley would say, on earth.

Posted by: @shiva

These are useful in ordering the mind, which is a form of alignment, which is preparatory to "attaining enlightenment," or some similar phrase.

Full enlightenment is the mind, body and speech of a Buddha. It takes eons of lifetimes to achieve this, and if one is fortunate to have a lifetime where they reach the dharma, the great work, and learn skillful means, this process can happen in a much shorter amount of time.

That full enlightenment is the only "true will" we have. This is called our "Buddha nature", and we all have this in equal amounts.

Everything is leading us to this enlightenment, everything.

Somethings just lead us there quicker than others, that is all.

Posted by: @tiger

our journey into the Vajrayana anatta for 20 years to solidify the self.

My journey into Vajrayana Buddhism and the Bonpo began in 2020. My experience with Sunyata began 20 years ago.

Can you show me that you have learned something from the Vajrayana and liquefy ?

I've been doing that for a few weeks amigo.

One of the more profound insights I have received from Vajrayana was the discovery that the true will is our Buddha nature.

We will all eventually become Buddhas.

And that our Buddha nature is our equanimity.

And that equanimity is Sunyata.

And that everywhere we can discover Equanimity, we can come to discover Sunyata, a little bit, without effort, without attempt, empty of all purpose.

Can you share something with us that you have learned from Vajrayana?

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

even [ignant666] agrees with me that Sunyata IS Non-Duality

Umm, no; i said "they are not the same thing".

An admirably non-dual view of my statement i suppose, but just fake news there. I said the opposite.

And whence the "even"?

(@sangewanchuck56)
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Topic starter
Posted by: @ignant666

Umm, no; i said "they are not the same thing".

Yes, they are, especially in the tradition it originally comes from, and you specifically even said "I don't think this is right, or is rather right from only one direction (from "up" looking "down"), but not right developmentally or chronologically..."

Sunyata as an "understanding", begins in Binah, so yes you are correct that there is only the non-dual view above the abyss.

And you are also correct that anything below the abyss is just a chronological development of this ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

All other truths in comparison are only provisional, temporary.

Posted by: @ignant666

An admirably non-dual view of my statement i suppose, but just fake news there. I said the opposite.

And whence the "even"?

You did NOT say the opposite, you said that Sunyata is Nonduality above the abyss, no?

You said that the developmental path up until that point does not require a "non-dual" experience, it requires lots of 'sELVES and others' along the way, right?

There should be no argument that Sunyata is Non-Duality, the entirety of the Vajrayana is resting on this teaching specifically.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@tiger)
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@sangewanchuck56

“ My journey into Vajrayana Buddhism and the Bonpo began in 2020. My experience with Sunyata began 20 years ago. “

Ah that explains a lot. Thanks for slowing down a little. Please continue to do so. It will allow for an early disturbance of the obliteration of all ways of telling and its elaborations to settle.

—————————————————————————
The translation of Sunyata is Empty ness not non dual
The translation of Advaita Vedanta is non duality

Sunyata empty ness - no reference to a dual or non dual is associated with Śivadarśana - liberation
a nonimplicative negation contrasted with an implicative negation. med dgag .

There is nothing to gain and no one to gain it, strive ever onward.
Dissipated psychophysical energies can be converted.

(@sangewanchuck56)
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Topic starter
Posted by: @tiger

Ah that explains a lot.

It explains only exactly what it says, and no more.

All other "explanations" are only in your mind.

Posted by: @tiger

The translation of Sunyata is Empty ness not non dual
The translation of Advaita Vedanta is non duality

Sunyata empty ness - no reference to a dual or non dual is associated with Śivadarśana - liberation
a nonimplicative negation contrasted with an implicative negation. med dgag .

There is nothing to gain and no one to gain it, strive ever onward.
Dissipated psychophysical energies can be converted.

Tiger, puzzling to me about your communications is that they are layered with faint suggestions of your expertise in an area, yet then I see you write something which lacks so much confusion that it gives away your "poverty" on the subject.

And not just your poverty on the subject, but your entire approach to any sort of formal or critical thinking.

Are you actually confusing the definitions of words for their very philosophical meaning?

The "word" Sunyata and the "meaning" of sunyata are not the same thing.

For definitions of words, we look up words in the dictionary.

Definitions of words are not descriptions of a subject, they are prescriptive for a subject.

For the understanding of words, we go to the sources, and we also PRACTICE and experience it, directly.

You are neither studying properly nor practicing, at all–when you make such juvenile statements as yours.

The claim that Sunyata is Non-Duality is so utterly non-controversial that even Wikipedia gets it right, in the tope lede section.

Descriptions of nondual consciousness can be found withinHinduism(Advaita,Turiya,sahaja),Buddhism(emptiness,pariniṣpanna,nature of mind,rigpa),Sufism(Wahdat al Wujud,Fanaa, andHaqiqah) and westernChristianandneo-Platonic traditions(henosis,mystical union).

C'mon dude, this is evidence of just too much sloppy thinking on your part.

Why are you leading people on this forum to believe you have any expertise or meaningful insight to share on this topic?

If anyone would like to hear a true "expert" speak to the subject, here is a lecture by Robert Thurman on the non-duality of the hindu and buddhist.

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

(@shiva)
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Posts: 7115

Words. Words. Translations. Words. References. More Words.

Nothing practical here today. "Crowley's Math" is still open for discussion.

Anonymous
Joined: 53 years ago
Posts: 0

Sunyata (emptiness) is precisely the non-dual view. This is basic Buddhism (not basic as in easy, basic as in fundamental). The confusion is solved only through practice, or we can wave our dictionaries at each other and get caught up in Hod arguing about who has the best definitions.

The idea is that since everything is impermanent, and empty, then there is no 'thing' and no 'self', and therefore no 'not self', therefore no duality to speak of.

Anyway, back to my popcorn.

(@shiva)
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Posted by: @pertinax

... since everything is impermanent, and empty, then there is no 'thing' and no 'self', and therefore no 'not self', therefore no duality to speak of.

Mathematically, any way one does it, the result is "zero."

In our more normal vocabulary, this means balance, equilibrium, alignment, which are the prerequisites for nothing wherein naught may be said.

(@david-dom-lemieux)
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Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

Are we still talking maths and Liber Legis or did someone hijack/bring the other thread into this thread?  Anyway I was going to offload lots of astounding mathematical facts found in Nature, facts that are generally overlooked by the education system but instead I recommend the source i.e. this;

Hall of the Gods: The Quest to Discover the Knowledge of the Ancients: Amazon.co.uk: Appleby, Nigel: 9780434005017: Books

Fibonnaci?  Wow.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

Anonymous
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@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

Mathematically, any way one does it, the result is "zero."

In our more normal vocabulary, this means balance, equilibrium, alignment, which are the prerequisites for nothing wherein naught may be said.

I would only add one minor clarification. Nothing, naught, is already inherent. Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form, precisely because of the impermanence of form. There are no prerequisites when there is nothing to attain. The practices that the beginner thinks are gong to produce enlightenment are really an expression of emptiness, rather than a means to produce it.

I think this is what is meant, in the A.'.A.'. system, by the idea that before 5=6, a person studies the Rose Cross formula, while the adept 'practices' it.

It's a peculiar paradox. On the one hand, the practices are necessary if we want to see the truth, but at the same time the truth is already here and now, and couldn't give a fig if we practice or not.

I once had a vision, if you like. In truth the images were formed by my brain by way of clothing a more direct perception which itself remains unknowable. A field of black with flowers blooming and wilting in continual succession as if emerging from a black ocean to sink back down again. What is distinct is the phrase that came with it: "Void flowers". This has stuck with me, and seems fitting to put here.

(@sangewanchuck56)
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Posted by: @dom

Are we still talking maths and Liber Legis or did someone hijack/bring the other thread into this thread?

Well, maybe a little bit o both, hehe

Actually, it is not a hi-jack by any means. It is just that this forum took on an utterly impossible job by attempting to encapsulate "Non-Duality" into a thread, because by definition all threads would be about non-duality in some way.

Which is actually itself a mathematical problem, I eluded to this in jest before the other thread was shut down.

Which makes this on topic!

I kid you not, really. Kurt Godel the brilliant mathematician and logician proved that certain truths cannot be proven with math, and the paradox of this he used math to show that certain maths cannot be proven.

I like to think Godel brought "non-duality" to math, and this thread is suggestive that in principle, Crowley may have been the first to do this in the 20th Century, which is why Liber al Vel Legis is so special, to me at least.

Posted by: @dom

Anyway I was going to offload lots of astounding mathematical facts found in Nature, facts that are generally overlooked by the education system

That is a really good idea! Would you still mind? Some things are better worked through group conversation.

Another theme of maths that overlap with the great work is the "squaring of the circle".

That is a pretty profound one, and we see hints of this in Chp 3 of Liber al Vel Legis "Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in its failure is a key also."

I think showing many examples of how beautiful maths are, especially in the mind of nature, can help us appreciate this theme a lot more.

Niels Bohr, the father of quantum mechanics as well as a practitioner of non-duality, had a remarkable quote regarding the elusive nature of the non-dual quantum realm; "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth."

And again, Crowley was the first to get there with this realization in 1904, both mathematically and poetically, which is still quite unfathomable to me, yet I have to accept what the facts show.

Posted by: @pertinax

"Void flowers". This has stuck with me, and seems fitting to put here.

Wow! Binah much? hehe

"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson

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