Warning: Heretical thoughts!
Mentioning RTC in a comment got me thinking about his ideas again
I do not believe that AL was faked.
But I don't see Crowley as the be all and end all of everything either
I believe he was in the right place at the right time, physically and mentally, to receive the transmission. That he had the right set and setting, as RAW would put it.
Did he bring the Aeon down from above? I don't think so. I think that he made contact and earthed the first transmission, and then articulated that in to the world, the transmission filtered through and structured by his own consciousness. Every transmission from the transrational needs articulation in the forms of the rational in order to be disseminated in the world, and these will get filtered through the forms in the receiving consciousness.
Do I think that the Golden Dawn's system of Western Ceremonial magick IS the magick of the Aeon? No. I think that it was the system that Crowley happened to know and that he expressed these ideas through it. It also provided a common language for the transmissions of the Aeon to others. It's easier for an idea to take hold through pre-existing ideas than through something entirely new and unfamiliar.
Do I think that Crowley's transmission was the be all and end all of the Aeon? No. I think that he brought us the first contact and that it continues to unfold, and that other people have drawn down other elements too. We covered in another thread my take on other Words and Magi, and on some who may have temporarily reached the grade of Magus and uttered a Word from there. While some of these people claim to have initiated Aeons, I think that they simply uttered Aeon-enhancing Words and mistook those for transmissions from a new Aeon. I also hold the heretical position that some who did not see themselves as aligned with Thelema may have connected with elements of the Aeon and articulated them through their own systems.
I think this is enough heresy for now, or at least enough to get a discussion started.
What is so heretical about what you expressed? I think Crowley himself would agree that he and his new wife Rose were simply a conduit to a celestial intelligence who at that time decided to call itself Ra Hoor Khuit, or Heru-ra-hah. Because as you wrote, the entity has to be in a form a human can relate to. I am going to go off subject here because I think it is important to note that the translation of the Stele of Revealing was very much a Gardner school of translation. i want to mention a real gadfly in the field of Ancient Egyptian linguistics and translation. His name is Dimitrious Trimijopous. He can be found on the Academia website. His contention is, that all translations of the Egyptian hieroglyphics by 19century translators are completely wrong. That includes E.W. Budge. Why do I mention this? Because Crowley and the rest may have relied on faulty and erroneous translations in their rituals and an indeed in the entire Weltanschauung of mysticism and Egyptology. If this is true, then the whole foundation of Thelema crumbles. It is my belief that that this alien intelligence is leading us to the new Aeon through Astrophysics and space travel. One day we will inhabit Mars. The planet Mars has been an archetypal, if unknown destination that humanity has consciously or unconsciously been urning for since we gazed at the night sky. We as a species became "activated" by this unseen force throughout civilization. Crowley sensed it. H.G. Wells certainly sensed it and has molded our popular imaginations about Mars. Mars is not what we imagined, but it's potential is immeasurable.
I do not believe that AL was faked.
Nor do I. I have a small bit of personal experience in transmitting "channeled scriptures and AC's story is sound enough to hold water.
But then, I wasn't there.
Did he hide some things? Sure - he didn't want to end up in jail (sexual perversions, you know).
Did he write part (or all) of it earlier than 1904? Probably - in his mind. WellRead has produced written "proof" that AC was fiddling around with Nu and Horus as early as 1900.
Did he write part (or all) of it later than 1904? Probably - we know he changed the style of some letter(s) - maybe in '06.
So what? The Book must be taken at its inherent face value, regardless of how it came to be.
I think this is enough heresy for now
Why are you presenting your common-sense and probably correct ideas as heresy ?
Oh, it's probably in respect to (out of respect of) those folks who hold rigid beliefs in Cairo as it was written.
Did he write part (or all) of it earlier than 1904? Probably - in his mind. WellRead has produced written "proof" that AC was fiddling around with Nu and Horus as early as 1900.
Indeed his consciousness was primed for the reception, another part of his set and setting
Did he write part (or all) of it later than 1904? Probably - we know he changed the style of some letter(s) - maybe in '06.
Agreed, this is a matter of record.
So what? The Book must be taken at its inherent face value, regardless of how it came to be.
The final test is what does it inspire in you.
Oh, it's probably in respect to (out of respect of) those folks who hold rigid beliefs in Cairo as it was written.
Though I don't really see it here, there are too many Thelemites who are little more than Catholics with a slight resurfacing.
His contention is, that all translations of the Egyptian hieroglyphics by 19century translators are completely wrong. That includes E.W. Budge.
I thought that this was pretty much accepted.
If this is true, then the whole foundation of Thelema crumbles.
How so? Most of the "Egyptian" mysticism of that era, including the Golden Dawn's, was hardly authentically Egyptian at all. Someone whose knowledge of the mythology was entirely from Dungeons and Dragons books would know only slightly less. I remember showing a pic of the Bembine Tablet, once claimed to have been the altar at which Plato was initiated, to a Kemetic Reconstructionist friend of mine and it almost made her blow a mouthful of coffee out of her nose because she was laughing so hard.
There is no Egyptian deity "Hadit", but there is a Heru Behudite
Thelema may use Egyptian deities, but it's still Golden Dawn Western Ceremonial magick, a blend of Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, and Masonry. Compare it to actual Kemetic, or even the magick of the PGM, and there's not a lot of resemblance.
At best the Egyptian elements were the symbol set that the gnosis used as a vehicle.
Mars is not what we imagined, but it's potential is immeasurable.
But need this be literal Mars, or mythic archetypal Mars?
there are too many Thelemites who are little more than Catholics with a slight resurfacing.
AL-thumpers. Rigid fundamentalists. Found in all realms.
If this is true, then the whole foundation of Thelema crumbles.
Nah! The whole Thelemic pantheon and paradigm is pigeon-Egyptian compared to Budge, who was wrong, and the others. For Ex ...
There is no Had or Hadit anywhere else.
There is no Nuit ... there is Nut, but it isn't French for night.
There is no Ra-Hoor=Khuit ... a fairly standard Re-Herakhty suffices.
AC, and his buddy Aiwass, did a pretty good job of building up an entire, all-encompassing paradigm from a 3-hour text and a 2400-year old stele, plus a couple concepts from Rabelais, with Nietzsche nihilism stirred gently into the plot.
Okay. We accept the winged-globe as Hadit, and bending-over Nuit is a standard outer pace item, and Re-herakhty got a spelling revision. Compared to mainstream Egyptology, Thelema is a stand-alone, clandestine gem. It explains the Universe. Mainstream Egyptology does not - at least not in such a direct 3-hour writ.
There is no Egyptian deity "Hadit", but there is a Heru Behudite
Yeah, that's the name AC used in his deciphering of the Stele. No Hadit.
Why do Had, Nu, and Ra-Horr-Khu get spelled that way sometimes, and other times they get a "it" added to their name. I always thought it was an honorific, implying "spiritual" status. But the mainstream Egyptophiliacs are not going around adding it to deity's names ... are they?
Thelema has it's roots in Egypt all right. And most of us in the western civ have our DNA/akashic roots back in that same geography. The time factor, the age and dynasty will vary, but we all (mostly) resonate with some aspect of Egyptian symbolism (and photos). LAShTAL just goes there - he is the true Indiana Feazy.
The Egyptian Museum will crumble and fall before the understanding of Thelemic symbolism, expressed in Egyptian terms with clandestine spellings, fades from view. The problem, or perhaps the solution, is that the view is limited. The Law is for all ... but ... Let my Servants be Few and Secret.
Thelema may use Egyptian deities, but it's still Golden Dawn Western Ceremonial magick, a blend of Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, and Masonry.
Oh, you noticed. Here's what I have noticed: A lot (maybe a couple handfuls, maybe more) of self-identified Thelemites have toured the Colleges ... and moved on to the Void (Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Tao - that sort of thing). I have also noticed that they do not look back and hold Thelema in contempt. In fact they may well continue to participate in the Thelemic community.
Here's a funny observation: AL says There are but three grades. Yet Therion, or his puppet O.M., chose to present the same old Golden Dawn Tree-of-Life curriculum (with added supernal degrees, of course), which was put together by Masons, which arose out of the Templars and the R.C., which had a Christian slant ... but everybody looks back further to Egypt, probably because of those impressive, pointy edifices that are hard to ignore, and then they incorporate Egyptian things into their version of the path.
Okay, so there are three grades split up into various degrees...
I remember showing a pic of the Bembine Tablet, once claimed to have been the altar at which Plato was initiated, to a Kemetic Reconstructionist friend of mine and it almost made her blow a mouthful of coffee out of her nose because she was laughing so hard.
Shiva, as usual you bring me back to earth (I visited Mars this weekend) and realize I don't know as much as I think I do with regards to the Ancient Egyptian Religion, or as you term it, "Kemetic" Kemet being the name the Egyptians called their rich and bountiful land. I had never heard of the Benbine Tablet before despite my readings on A.E. So, I googled it and found an article on Wikipedia. It is an interesting artifact of a religious object based on far more ancient tradition, yet as far removed from its origins as can be imagined. Beautifully rendered Romanized Egyptian deities with garbled, meaningless hieroglyphics. It reminded of the junk sold to tourists in the outdoor markets when I was visiting Egypt. So, explain to me, what is a "Kemetic reconstructionist?" And how does a contemporary Kemetic Reconstructionist avoid the pitfalls of modern (18th century to 20th century) influence and how do you perform Kemetic Magic(K)?
AL-thumpers. Rigid fundamentalists. Found in all realms.
Exactly. The type of people who refer to Crowley as "The Prophet" or "Our Father".
If this is true, then the whole foundation of Thelema crumbles.
...
There is no Had or Hadit anywhere else.
There is no Nuit ... there is Nut, but it isn't French for night.
There is no Ra-Hoor=Khuit ... a fairly standard Re-Herakhty suffices.
I've switched to using the more accurate names in ritual.
I always thought it was an honorific, implying "spiritual" status. But the mainstream Egyptophiliacs are not going around adding it to deity's names ... are they?
Not at all. I'll have to ask my friend about that.
The problem, or perhaps the solution, is that the view is limited. The Law is for all ... but ... Let my Servants be Few and Secret.
To use the mainstream Thelemic groups as an example, there's the OTO, and the A:.A:.. Not every OTO member does the A:.A:. Work.
Oh, you noticed.
I thought it was a bit obvious. Personally I prefer drawing on the PGM and phasing out a lot of the Masonic, Qabalistic, and Rosicrucian stuff.
Here's what I have noticed: A lot (maybe a couple handfuls, maybe more) of self-identified Thelemites have toured the Colleges ... and moved on to the Void (Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, Tao - that sort of thing). I have also noticed that they do not look back and hold Thelema in contempt. In fact they may well continue to participate in the Thelemic community.
The true core of Thelemic Initiatory practice is Yoga.
Okay, so there are three grades split up into various degrees...
you could make an analogy with the A:.A:. gradework involving 2 major initiations, "The A:.ngel and The A:.byss" 😉 , dividing the grade structure in to three sections.
Shiva, as usual you bring me back to earth
I typed that, but go on. 🙂
realize I don't know as much as I think I do with regards to the Ancient Egyptian Religion
I think most of us don't.
I had never heard of the Benbine Tablet before despite my readings on A.E. So, I googled it and found an article on Wikipedia. It is an interesting artifact of a religious object based on far more ancient tradition, yet as far removed from its origins as can be imagined. Beautifully rendered Romanized Egyptian deities with garbled, meaningless hieroglyphics. It reminded of the junk sold to tourists in the outdoor markets when I was visiting Egypt.
That seems to be the consensus among serious scholars as to what it really is. But it had a lot of people fooled for a while.
So, explain to me, what is a "Kemetic reconstructionist?" And how does a contemporary Kemetic Reconstructionist avoid the pitfalls of modern (18th century to 20th century) influence
Reconstructionists attempt to practice the magick and religion of ancient civilizations as closely to the original form as possible. There are Kemetic Reconstructionists, Hellenic Reconstrictionists, etc. They go back to source documentation and materials that draw on source documentation as much as they can, many even going so far as to learn the language of the tradition they practice in order to understand it better. They may fill in the blanks left by lost materials when necessary to make things workable, but admit it when the do. Reconstructionist groups are very strict on integrity in areas like that. It's not my style, personally, but Reconstructionists, or "Recons" as they sometimes call themselves, are great to know if you want authentic knowledge on how things were really done in more ancient times.
@katrice Again that opens up the can of worms that seems to be the theme of this discussion. How can a modern person, however well-intentioned and motivated attempt to replicate a 4000 year old secret doctrine that priests probably only passed on by word of mouth, and were sworn to secrecy on pain of torture or death (suicide), or maybe worse still, being denied the spells to recite in the afterlife? This was the actual fate of the accused defendants in the Harem Conspiracy against Rameses III in 1155 BC. The only written sources of Egyptian priestly writing are the Pyramid Texts and the Book of Coming Forth by Day, The Am Duat, and Coffin texts. Assuming the translations are accurate, they are still highly symbolic and to certain degree, incomprehensible to the modern reader. No matter how hard you try, you will never stand in the sandals of an ancient Egyptian Priest or Priestess. WE cannot think like an ancient Egyptian, (Or Sumerian, or Nubian, or Hyksos or Hittite, or what have you) or reason like they did, or even dream like they did. I would love to know what a reconstructed Kemetic Magic ritual is like. Beyond reciting spells, and burning incense, what else is there to preform?
@katrice Again that opens up the can of worms that seems to be the theme of this discussion. How can a modern person, however well-intentioned and motivated attempt to replicate a 4000 year old secret doctrine that priests probably only passed on by word of mouth, and were sworn to secrecy on pain of torture or death (suicide), or maybe worse still, being denied the spells to recite in the afterlife?
"as closely to the original form as possible" was a key phrase in my initial description. It's my understanding that they work with whatever materials are available, including fragments and writings from other cultures, comparison and contrast with other periods of history, how elements changed over time, and anything else that they can find, and try to reconstruct as closely as they can, filling in blanks where necessary, as I mentioned. There's naturally a lot of discussion and debate on what that all involves. I'm not a recon though, so I can't give a fully informed take beyond that. There are plenty of recon sites, blogs, and forums that you can go to for more information though.
Regardless, Thelema's foundation will not crumble from the lack of authenticity of Crowley's information on Egypt because Thelema is not Egyptian but the form Crowley gave it just went with the Victorian fetishization of things Egyptian that Crowley inherited from his time in the Golden Dawn, just like how he gave it the Golden Dawn system vehicle because that's what he knew at the time.
you could make an analogy with the A:.A:. gradework involving 2 major initiations, "The A:.ngel and The A:.byss"
This has already been done (by O.M., no less) and we find that ALL the practices, grades, degrees, and fee-schedules can be dismissed or overlooked, but the essential two stages, the Angel and the Abyss, are "necessary features in every career."
That would be right if one were dealing with initiates. There is a third (first, actually) veil that nobody mentions: The Veil of the Temple. This is where the average common person is moving along and the chapel perilous grabs him or her. Yeah, everybody has a critical moment when they realize that there's more going on than was previously apparent. This is the Entrance to the Path (First degree - Start Here).
that opens up the can of worms
It is called the "Diet of Worms," and it involved Martin the Luther. The term, Diet of Worms, has to be one of the most disgusting phrases - when pronounced and interpreted in English.
How can a modern person, however well-intentioned and motivated attempt to replicate a 4000 year old secret doctrine that priests probably only passed on by word of mouth
Um, you dress up like an Ancient AEgyptian (A.'.A.'.), go out into the desert, put up a tent if you're a weenie, or take of your AEgyptian clothes if you're a hero ... then recite ancient Egyptian invocations.
Liber Israfel, "The Invocation of Thoth," was erected by Allan Bennett, the Godfather of Thelema, from portions of The Book of the Dead (papyri),and the"secrets" are all right there.
Um, you dress up like an Ancient AEgyptian (A.'.A.'.), go out into the desert, put up a tent if you're a weenie, or take of your AEgyptian clothes if you're a hero ... then recite ancient Egyptian invocations
See my further comment on Kemetic Reconstructionism.
Liber Israfel, "The Invocation of Thoth," was erected by Allan Bennett, the Godfather of Thelema, from portions of The Book of the Dead (papyri)
With parts of the later Bornless, or Headless, Ritual, attributed to Dositheus's school and foundation of Liber Samekh.
as
"as closely to the original form as possible" was a key phrase in my initial description. It's my understanding that they work with whatever materials are available, including fragments and writings from other cultures, comparison and contrast with other periods of history, how elements changed over time, and anything else that they can find, and try to reconstruct as closely as they can, filling in blanks where necessary, as I mentioned. There's naturally a lot of discussion and debate on what that all involves. I'm not a recon though, so I can't give a fully informed take beyond that. There are plenty of recon sites, blogs, and forums that you can go to for more information though.
Sounds to me like they are just doing the work of a good historian. Historians do the very same thing.
Regardless, Thelema's foundation will not crumble from the lack of authenticity of Crowley's information on Egypt because Thelema is not Egyptian but the form Crowley gave it just went with the Victorian fetishization of things Egyptian that Crowley inherited from his time in the Golden Dawn, just like how he gave it the Golden Dawn system vehicle because that's what he knew at the time.
I know, I just threw that in for shock value. In any case, Thelema will crumble and disappear just like we will someday.
Sounds to me like they are just doing the work of a good historian. Historians do the very same thing.
But, let's be honest, how many magickal practitioners do?
You might remember that I started a thread on history a while a this is another aspect of that.
In any case, Thelema will crumble and disappear just like we will someday.
"Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies"
"Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies"
Next Spring ...
"Is that when RTC is due to make his next appearance?"
i thought the tradition was CRT!
Is that when RTC is due to make his next appearance?
No. RTC has become unreliable: Re-lie. Yes, he lies. And he does not appear when promised, nor does he provide proofs. He may have lost his mind.
RTC, by his own choice, traditionally appears on April the Oneth. Uh-huh. His short show this year was pitifully under-displayed. You must remember that everything done by RTC is designed (yes - consciously planned by an adolescent mind) to get you (anyone) mentally twisted and emotionally wrung.
No. In this case, Spring is associated with "Spring-Birds," who were discovered by Ignant to bloom here in the warming days of Spring. Spring birds are crazy and they squawk a lot about metaphysical things that are not true.
Ywa. By his own choice of April 1 appearances, RTC has chosen the path of the Spring-Bird. It is recommended that you not take any of this seriously.
RTC has chosen the path of the Spring-Bird. It is recommended that you not take any of this seriously.
Well, I guess, few people do. I cannot imagine this idiot is showing up here again. While all of us ("all" here means a very few people like maybe three or four) wait for the next stage of the (so far very disappointing) Horus Toy thingie, all we got for Halloween was unwanted updates for many of his earlier books, like a "Liber Bogus" *updated* with "The Race to conquer eLGMOR". I mean, what can I say? If there is anything to NOT promote anything, I would say it is DO DOT include "The Race to conquer eLGMOR". But he still thinks it is the RIGHT solution to the riddle. His message though is clear: BUY HIS BOOKS! This guy is lost (I hope I can bait him back with shaming him).
p.S. I forgot. He will be soon trying to make money with a "totally new" "Tarot Hammer"! Like in "milking the Crowley cow as long as I can." But in the end it is always money, selling stuff, milking that Crowley cow.
a "totally new" "Tarot Hammer"!
And i don't even have an old one!
What is a "Tarot Hammer"? Does one hammer one's tarot cards with one, or perhaps the "Tarot Hammer" is a way to use tarot cards to hammer other things?
Can a "Tarot Hammer" be used to adjust a malfunctioning Horus Toy™?
a "Liber Bogus" *updated* with "The Race to conquer eLGMOR". I mean, what can I say?
Those who Gnow keep it zipped. There is nothing to add. How long can an obituary go on?
... perhaps the "Tarot Hammer" is a way to use tarot cards to hammer other things?
This is my impression. I have a (fairly) new, undamaged, heavy, rubber mallet. I'm going to get a couple decks and make some changes!
Can a "Tarot Hammer" be used to adjust a malfunctioning Horus Toy™?
Now you're getting into the secret things that will be avoided in some future Appendix in an "updated" book of wit. No, nit.
Well Liber Legis does say:
"But your holy place shall be untouched throughout the centuries: though with fire and sword it be burnt down & shattered, yet an invisible house there standeth, and shall stand until the fall of the Great Equinox; when Hrumachis shall arise and the double-wanded one assume my throne and place. Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies; another woman shall awakethe lust & worship of the Snake; another soul of God and beast shall mingle in the globed priest; another sacrifice shall stain the tomb; another king shall reign; and blessing no longer be poured To the Hawk-headed mystical Lord!" - 3:34
"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62
I do not believe that AL was faked.
But I don't see Crowley as the be all and end all of everything either
I consider myself in the same camp.
Every transmission from the transrational needs articulation in the forms of the rational in order to be disseminated in the world, and these will get filtered through the forms in the receiving consciousness.
Or more simply put, there is a probability that internal dialogue will attempt to engage and modify external dialogue, resulting in a diluted, distorted message.
Do I think that the Golden Dawn's system of Western Ceremonial magick IS the magick of the Aeon? No. I think that it was the system that Crowley happened to know and that he expressed these ideas through it.
If the text of Liber Legis was transmitted from an external source, then it is reasonable to conclude its author might have also used the magical language familiar to Crowley as a means of expressing certain points in the text. On the other hand, if the Golden Dawn system does not lie at the heart of Liber Legis, then the implementation of Qabalah in the text would have to be limited, and the core knowledge consist of something new and unfamilar:
It's easier for an idea to take hold through pre-existing ideas than through something entirely new and unfamiliar.
How, do you suppose, would someone be able to assess something entirely new and unfamiliar, when all they have to compare it to are preexisting concepts? And in the course of presenting something new and unfamiliar, would you agree that it will probably not be well-received, and be the subject of much ridicule, that by example originates with individuals that lack the insight required to distinguish their asses from cracks in the sidewalk?
Most of the "Egyptian" mysticism of that era, including the Golden Dawn's, was hardly authentically Egyptian at all
If the Egyptian concepts used by the Golden Dawn are not authentic, and they are not, then the eclectic-syncretic universe envisioned by Crowley never existed to begin with.
The Grand Word of the Golden Dawn is Hor-par-krat; it is obviously derived from Harpocrates, the Greek form of Horus the child that was treated as a god of silence. The concept of the god of silence is not Egyptian, nor is the name Hor-par-krat. Knowing these facts, and that the author of Liber Legis knows the difference between Hoor-pa-kraat, who is indeed Horus the child, and Hoor-paar-kraat, the use of the latter name in the text can only serve to mock the Golden Dawn, and mean something other than Horus the child.
There is no Egyptian deity "Hadit", but there is a Heru Behudite
Only according to one person, Peter le Page Renouf. He was the head of antiquities at the British Museum before Budge took the job. Renouf was British, and the president of the Society of Biblical Archaeology. He was the one who insisted that Gardiner sign F22 should have the phonetic value BH instead of HW. A French archaeologist named Gaston Maspero, and a German counterpart named Adolf Erman, disagreed, and felt there was not enough justification for changing the phonetic value of the sign. In his memoir, Renouf mentions being shown evidence by Erman that supports the spelling HWDT as the name of the winged sun, and it upset him terribly, taking the position the evidence shown to him had to be scribal errors. Based on the evidence, no one can be certain that HWDT is an incorrect spelling.
Only according to one person, Peter le Page Renouf. He was the head of antiquities at the British Museum before Budge took the job. Renouf was British, and the president of the Society of Biblical Archaeology. He was the one who insisted that Gardiner sign F22 should have the phonetic value BH instead of HW. A French archaeologist named Gaston Maspero, and a German counterpart named Adolf Erman, disagreed, and felt there was not enough justification for changing the phonetic value of the sign. In his memoir, Renouf mentions being shown evidence by Erman that supports the spelling HWDT as the name of the winged sun, and it upset him terribly, taking the position the evidence shown to him had to be scribal errors. Based on the evidence, no one can be certain that HWDT is an incorrect spelling.
Thanks for sharing this; The notion of this bifurcation of translation is interesting, in many ways, where precisely upon the fault line of a revival of words, of the reading of the hieroglyphs, the phonetics of alphabetical identification, speaks to some new pondering upon the notion that "spelling is defunct"...to which I never thought of as concerns say translation of the Stele!
I appreciate the reference to Renouf's memo, I am sure there are other references to the controversy of translators ? ....In a sense then the Cairo reception could be considered a 'weigh in' from on high as regards the correct spelling... or rather intonation~
@hadgigegenraum Like I have written before, check out the writings of Dimitrios Trimijopulos. He will shatter everything we have been taught about Ancient Egyptian culture, social order, and the translation of hieroglyphics. It seems to me that building a Mystical system on erroneous understanding a given culture or mythology is building on a faulty foundation.
I was mistaken, relying on memory, the sign in question is F18 in Gardiners sign list, not F22.
Champillion is the one who originally assigned sign F18 the phonetic value HW, and that could only happen if the Greek or Demotic writing on the Rosetta Stone supports it.
I appreciate the reference to Renouf's memo, I am sure there are other references to the controversy of translators ?
I only read what Renouf and Maspero wrote about the issue; if Erman wrote about it, it was probably published in the German Language, which I cannot read.
In a sense then the Cairo reception could be considered a 'weigh in' from on high as regards the correct spelling... or rather intonation~
It could indeed. The rest of the Egyptian god names in Liber Legis conform to what can be considered reasonably accurate transliterations from the Egyptian language, which suggests Hadit is probably accurate as well.
check out the writings of Dimitrios Trimijopulos. He will shatter everything we have been taught about Ancient Egyptian culture, social order, and the translation of hieroglyphics.
I read a short bio on him that he provides, and it states that he is self-taught in the Egyptian language, which makes it hard to believe he has insights that have eluded language experts, but without having read him, I can't say either way.
The problem with claiming an accurate understanding of Egyptian writing, is the written language was largely the product of the priesthood, while the spoken language was that of the commoner. The Egyptian priests were always trying to modify the written language in an effort to return it to a purer form (Hornung), while the spoken language evolved unchecked, and was informed by other languages, leading to even more dilution.
Renouf relied on the Coptic language to support his argument that bhdt is the name of the winged sun. Coptic appeared around the year 300 e.v., and was the result of someone using the Greek alphabet to create a written form of Egyptian street language, when the Stele of Ankh-f-n-khonsu was already 1000 years old. Using Coptic to determine an accurate pronunciation of ancient Egyptian writing, is comparable to using modern urban street slang as a baseline for understanding the English language as it was spoken in the year 1222 e.v.
Or more simply put, there is a probability that internal dialogue will attempt to engage and modify external dialogue, resulting in a diluted, distorted message.
Gnosis needs translation in to language and the consciousness of the recipient filters it.
How, do you suppose, would someone be able to assess something entirely new and unfamiliar, when all they have to compare it to are preexisting concepts? And in the course of presenting something new and unfamiliar, would you agree that it will probably not be well-received, and be the subject of much ridicule, that by example originates with individuals that lack the insight required to distinguish their asses from cracks in the sidewalk?
People simply have an easier time interfacing with the familiar. In this case, the message frames itself withing the ideas of the time, and that makes it more easily accessible. More new and original ideas can catch on, naturally, but tend to have a more difficult time.
Based on the evidence, no one can be certain that HWDT is an incorrect spelling.
The Kemetic Reconstructionists I know don't really see where "Hadit", as opposed to Heru Behudit, came from, and say that the "t" suffix is female, with some partial exceptions, like Wepwawet, whose name means 'opener of the ways'; in that case, the ways are female.
His short show this year was pitifully under-displayed. You must remember that everything done by RTC is designed
I remember! I tried to engage him in discussion but he would not deign to speak to one such as I. 😉
It is recommended that you not take any of this seriously.
I don't but I still find his ideas interesting, in the way that I also find Amado Crowley's ideas interesting.
Tarot Hammer
?
or maybe like the "mace" phase of Ebony Anpu's Terreract Working? 😉
@hadgigegenraum Like I have written before, check out the writings of Dimitrios Trimijopulos. He will shatter everything we have been taught about Ancient Egyptian culture, social order, and the translation of hieroglyphics. It seems to me that building a Mystical system on erroneous understanding a given culture or mythology is building on a faulty foundation.
Thanks for your making note of Dimities Trimijopulos work, never heard of him, disturbing indeed, & in that machinations of a slave society based upon a breeding program might well perfectly affirm present panopticonization of the planet by elites on high.... who of course precisely built foundations upon systems passed through generations with visage back to Memphis...
@hadgigegenraum Your observation is very astute! I am glad someone finally looked into Dimitrios T. It seems that his contention was the Ancient Egyptian hierarchy were racists and based their entire civilization on a pure-blood, physically perfect Egyptian specimen to rule over slaves and commoners. On the face of it, it seems valid. But I have noticed that in Ancient Egypt, intermarriage between dwarves and "normal" people was allowed and celebrated in statues and tomb art. Also, mummies of nobleman and women have been discovered with orthopedic deformities. This leads to the theory that King Tutankhamen was NOT the strapping youth we see in tomb art and statues, but was most likely a victim of scoliosis, or some other debilitating illness. (Was this due to in-breeding? Very likely.) Dimitrios's other theory is that Egyptologists have been misleading in their fallacious translation of Egyptian texts. In his article that appears on the Academia website entitled "The Eye of Horus: The Blunder of Egyptologists" He writes: "there was no "Eye of Horus" The Ancient Egyptians understood only the "Maat of Horus"., There was no "injured " and "intact" Eye of Horus. What Seth destroyed was his nature, his Maat. If Dimitros is correct, then the whole foundation of Crowley's teaching is flawed. I would encourage you to read more of his articles. If you are interested in Ancient Egyptian linguistics and writing systems, and to get a fresh perspective on Egyptology in general.
. If Dimitros is correct, then the whole foundation of Crowley's teaching is flawed
This presupposes that Thelema, and the Golden Dawn, were attempts to recreate ancient Egyptian magick, which neither were. At best, they could be considered developments of the later Hermetic synthesis found in things like the PGM, where we see lots of later interpretations of deities, and some entirely new deities, that did not exist in more ancient times.
@toadstoolwe - Not really; as @katrice just pointed out, actual ancient Egyptian religion has zero to do with Thelema. Thelema is meant to be "new", not a revival or recreation of anything.
@ignant666 I respectfully disagree. The Ancient Egyptian Religious mythos has everything to do with Thelema, it's very foundation is the revealed teaching of the Akashic record. I believe in the Law of the Eternal Return. The Aeon of Ma'at. In any case, I would suggest you read Dimitrios Trimijopolus's article, The Eye of Horus Blunder of Egyptologists. It is available on academia.edu, and simply enter Dimitrios Trimijopolus in the search.
Even if he was right, you would have to show some evidence that Thelema has something to do with ancient Egypt- just saying so won't cut it, since AC (inventor of Thelema) says it ain't so.
The article you mention appears to require a sign-up (i see no search box on the site you mention anyway), so i won't be reading that, unless you are able to provide an actual link to this paper.
Which peer-reviewed Egyptology/archaeology journal was it published in again? If you told me that, i could maybe find it on the journal's site. Remind me where this fellow did his grad work, and in what?
Obviously, when you say everyone but you in a certain field of study is wrong, and you are right, you set the bar rather high for yourself, because doing that makes you a presumptive crank, unless/until you are proven a paradigm-shattering genius.
Until i see some reason to take this person seriously, i have better things to do with my time than try to look up papers by cranks, what with xmas shopping and the World Cup and all.
@ignant666 Whatever, do what you want. You are a waste of time. I believe it and that is all that matters.
You are a waste of time.
Verges on being rude, but OK. The feeling is largely mutual- you are very often a crank, who gets cranky when folks point this out, and then pouts & whines when asked for evidence/proof.
I believe it and that is all that matters.
So why post about it then?
Maybe just be secure in your delusions and don't other waste folks' time? Ie, 4th virtue time?
@ignant666 You are right. I need to do some serious self-evaluation. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Cranks are interesting...some might say that is why we are here...no presumptuous pedigrees of academia would detour AC...but here is:
https://dimitriostrimijopulos.academia.edu/research#papers
Interesting and shocking, where in essence early Aeon of Osiris enslavement of woman going back to prehistoric times in systematic way for creation of slave races....finds Set to be a typification of slave class in revolt...
toadstool might want to elaborate on his ideas some more...
The Ancient Egyptian Religious mythos has everything to do with Thelema,
I disagree. The essence of Thelema is summarised in the Greek word Thelema. The Egyptian mythology – Nuit, Hadit, Ra-hoor-khuit – are simply trappings, reflecting Crowley's upbringing in the Golden Dawn. Had the transmission occurred in another time and place, to a person other than Crowley, it would have been clothed in another mythos. The mythos is of comparatively little consequence.
Thanx for the link; read almost the whole first page of this unpublished "paper". Dude is a crank; this is not what serious work looks/reads like. And it hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal, and of course he knows perfectly well it is unpublishable.
See, i am one of the world's top experts on a very narrow range of topics (relating to the social organization of illicit drug selling), but i know that, on 99% of topics, i don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. So, on those 99% of topics, i defer to those who do know, as represented by their publications in peer-reviewed journals. Because, having published a good deal, i know just how high the bar is to get published- your work has to be credible to others who are experts in that field.
For anyone curious, Trimijopolus mentions zero academic credentials. Perhaps he is a high-school graduate. The sole qualification he lists is "Retired Master Mariner". Hard to see how that training has much to do with ancient Egypt, though i'd rather be in a boat in a bad storm with him than many others (if he really is a "Retired Master Mariner").
Nearly as impressive as the wedding photographer someone recently claimed was an expert on evolution.
@ignant666 Sometimes mavericks who eschew the trappings of vanity, like academic degrees have more insight than those trapped in a box of conformity. Keep your "peer reviews" they are just members of a club that acts like an echo chamber, deaf to the real facts.
@hadgigegenraum I would only elaborate on this subject that Crowley's vision of a new Aeon, or order would be made up of master's and slaves. It is a structure that obviously worked well for the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. The fact that we still revere these civilizations and can still see their artifacts and monuments is proof of this. I might elaborate further because it turned my view of Ancient Egypt upside down.
@michael-staley You raise an excellent point. The gnosis can take on a variety of forms and didactic literature.
Do I think that Crowley's transmission was the be all and end all of the Aeon?
To take it even farther: Can a reasonable person believe that whatever the "Aeon" is is the end all be all of anything? To say yes is to perpetuate the "business as usual" of any major religion and its insistence upon objective truth and their authority as representative of that truth.
It seems that his contention was the Ancient Egyptian hierarchy were racists and based their entire civilization on a pure-blood, physically perfect Egyptian specimen to rule over slaves and commoners.
Yes, this has always been my understanding of the matter.
This leads to the theory that King Tutankhamen was NOT the strapping youth we see in tomb art and statues, but was most likely a victim of scoliosis, or some other debilitating illness.
Yes. He died as a kid (pre-mature-like). The general state of health and deformity in this dynasty was pretty extensive. This sort of thing happens when folks mate with their sibings or cousins, in order to preserve to bloodline of royal ancestry. They tried this nonsense in Europe and got a bunch of idiot kings.
This [flaw] presupposes that Thelema, and the Golden Dawn, were attempts to recreate ancient Egyptian magick, which neither were.
This is co-wrecked. The primary emblems of Thelema are AEgyptian in nature (Nuit, Hadit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit), and there is Ankh and the Stele. This is all cool, free-standing (as of ~1904), and is based on AC's interpretation of history and the events in ~500 BC.
The cosmology in AL quickly soars beyond AEgyptology. It incorporates Hebrew QBL, The Apocalypse of Santa John, expounds a bit on wu-wei (in english), gives some Military advice, and expresses the yin-yang concept in terms of cosmic lovers.
They have a kid. He intends to clean house.
Again and again, the choice of men ... and women, too - is to remember that
A Book is Judged by its
Self-evident Content
and not by the BS that
surrounds it or precedes it
Oh! What a novel idea. If anybody reads AL, say a prohibited three times or more, and then maybe consults a dictionary, or Crowley's Commentaries, and they start to get the drift of the implied and embedded cosmology, and how it might apply to them - any considerations of true ancient Egyptian beliefs or symbols become immaterial.
Of course, we'll want to do some research to see how much of IAL rings true in relation to histry. AC brings up Ankh in history.
For example, O.M.'s interpretation of The Aeons (Intro to AL) fails to hold up under historical scrutiny - when we look backward in the rear-view mirror, we do not find society (societies anywhere) being ruled by women (Mama Isis) from 2,000 BC to 0 BC/AD (even with hundreds of years of circa added or subtracted). But that was .M. 7=4, trying to send mental pictures to readers. But AL itself does not proclaim Aeons - It merely signals the Change of Guard.
This is another example of the saying that The battle has been won on the higher planes and has now descended to the mental plane. I would add a note to the effect that the battle (Horus vs Set) has not been won on the mental plane, and has successfully cruised (probably through gravity) down through the astral plane and has broken out on the physical plane. Please read your daily payrus for confirmation.
Anyway, staying on-topic, the Aeon configuration doesn't hold up to either historical records or an evident Aeon of Isis ... unless ...
Yeah, you've got to apply AL and the Aeon configuration to yourself !
For ALL of us there was an Aeon of Isis ... usually under the rule of a Mother (or at least a caregiver - otherwise you wouldn't be here - infants do not self-survive).
Then there was a daddy-Aeon of Osiris. This not only includes a daddy (sometimes missing), but also school - even if we had lady teachers. It is the cultural orientation (programming) that dominates this Aeon, or stage, in our lives.
One does not enter the Aeon of Horus in their lives until they are a free-standing adult. This adult may have a Horus-like, child-like approach to life, but he or she is (must be) free of family and formal programming. Going back to PhD school after becoming a Horus-child-individual, self-supporting and self-reliant, is no longer "Osirian-style programming."
All self-reliat horuses then find themselves in the same place: On a battlefield. There are different battlefields or different folks. Nobody finds themselvesin heaven. Many suspect they are in hell. What'a y'do? Fight, of course. This is where inner application of Ch 3 can most easily be engaged. The shit never stops, until ...
The Golden Years refer to advanced age. Ages and results will vary. The Aeon of Maat is another term for those Years. There is no reason that anyone (everyone) cannot attain Maat status in their lives. This usually involves leaving the battlefield (retiring). People who keep pushing in older age find no solace. They die on the battlefield of Horus and Set (they have not resolved their conscious and unconscious differences).
Yeah, if you apply the Aeons outwardly, the concept is pretty clear - we're all on the battlefield. We're all individuals fighting a collective Osirian-type of conformity. Right now, from our view from our boxes, or by being down in the mud, , the conformities are changing - so it's confusing. What was it he said in Heart of the Master ?
@shiva Very thought-provoking, especially how the Aeons express themselves in a microcosmic model, infancy and youth, (Isis) Adulthood (Osirus and Harpocrates) and the twilight years (Maat) If I am understanding correctly.
@shiva Another example of Crowley's total misunderstanding of the Ancient Egyptian deities could be demonstrated by the god Harpokrates, the "Silent One" that figures prominently in his Liber al Legis. "The Babe of the Abyss" The Probationer 0=0. The Egyptian image of Horus as a baby shows a full-grown image with a finger pressed to his lips. That is the Egyptian hieroglyph of an infant, not as a gesture of "Keeping Quiet". The Ancient Greeks and Romans in Ptolemaic Egypt misunderstood this and built an entire Gnostic cult around it.
That is the Egyptian hieroglyph of an infant, not as a gesture of "Keeping Quiet".
Yet, no where, no place, in no text, does Harpo ever speak. Nor does he speak in the Marx Bros epic adventure films. We all have a silent self (see Binah), and then there's the mouth-running part (at Chokmah).
The Book stands on its own Merit
Few care what ancient Khemites thought
Of course, Binah et Chokmah might be a bit abstract when considering hiero-glyphs and suckling toddlers. So let's put it this way: Everybody has a Silent (mystical) Self - usually dealt with in meditation.
And everybody has a noisy self - usually expressed in forums, on blogs, and occasionally in the news when one gets caught .
No need to rummage around in the rubbish bin of yesteryear's concepts. In the here-and-now, it can be demonstrated that we (all of us) have two modes of operation. You may think of yin-yang as the primary reference. These are so abstract that they fit into any and every conceptualization.
Want a more human persona touch? Okay, call them Nuit and Hadit - bending woman & exploding Star.
Too abstract? Pull 'em in another notch - Introduce The Great Wild Beast and the adulterous Scarlet Woman (Therion & Babalon). Note: Not much AEgyptian, here. This line can be problematic. Some people may see the assignment as personal to the pugilistic temperament of young Edward Alexander C. Some folks may have their Binah-Chokmah adjusted to alternative paradigms - this is where the problem comes in.
O.M. insists that everybody in the A,'.A.'. must follow the lead of Therion and Scarletta. I have no problem in uttering a Word that is complimentary to Thelema, but basing my entire mystical and magical career on the childhood antagonisms of a wild child may be stretching the application. Some people might find themselves slipping in [gasp] other paired archetypal figures.
Pull the pair in closer and we can deal out Isis-Osiris, Set-Nephthys, Shiva-Kali, Jesus & Mary Mag, and so-on into any paired icon.